NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/15/spies050615.html
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Just caught this on CBC. The only part of the story that raises eyebrows from my point of view is the scale of it. 1000 spies? That's a Helluva thing.
If this truly is the case, I think a few heads'll be rolling over at CSIS.

Deservedly so.

Chime in with your sentiments, be you Canadian or not. And as always, should you elect not to click the link, just keep moving your eyes from left to right and down. The body of the article has been cut-and-pasted for your convenience.

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Defectors say China running 1,000 spies in Canada
Last Updated Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:14:03 EDT
CBC News
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Two Chinese defectors say the Chinese government has a network of more than 1,000 spies and informants in Canada.

The two men were diplomats in Australia, where they are now seeking political asylum. They say Australia and other countries such as the United States have Chinese spy networks operating inside them too.

The defectors say the spies and informants have orders to disrupt the Falun Gong movement, which China calls "a dangerous cult," and to steal commercial and scientific secrets.

Chen Yongleen, the first secretary of the Chinese consulate in Sydney, defected two weeks ago. He was followed a short time later by How Fungjing, a low ranking Chinese intelligence officer.

Speaking to Australian journalists, Chen and How accused the Chinese government of maintaining a large network of spies in Australia primarily to harass Falun Gong members and steal commercial secrets.

"They were monitoring the activities and report back and they take some activities against the democracy movement and the Falun Gong people," said Chen.

The defectors went on to say that the spying network extends to countries with large Chinese immigrant populations, including the U.S. and Canada. How said he'd worked in a group in the Chinese Public Security Bureau known as the 610 office, a special unit created in 1999 to monitor and disrupt the activities of the Falun Gong overseas.

How says Canada has more spies operating in it than any other country.

Businessman Joe Wang is convinced he's already had a run-in with Chinese intelligence agents in Toronto.

Wang is manager of NTDTV, a satellite television network that beams programming critical of the government directly into China.

Two months ago Wang says his Toronto office began receiving envelopes through the mail filled with a mysterious white powder. The outside of the envelopes were marked with the Chinese symbol for death and the words Falun Dafa.

"I'm pretty sure the Chinese consulate is behind this," Wang said.

The envelopes were turned over to the police. The powder in the first turned out to be boric acid.

The Chinese embassy in Ottawa dismisses Wang's allegations and the allegation of the Chinese defectors in Australia as "pure fabrication."

However, former CSIS agent Michel Juneau-Katsuya, finds them credible. During the mid-1990s ,Juneau-Katsuya oversaw the CSIS Asian-Pacific desk. He says if Canadian intelligence agencies weren't preoccupied with Islamist terrorists these days they would realize the greatest threat to Canadian security comes from China.

Particularly in the theft of scientific and commercial data.

"We estimated at CSIS that we were losing $1 billion a month, $12 billion a year, due to industrial espionage," he said.

But Juneau-Katsuya does find the allegation that there are over 1,000 Chinese spies in Canada hard to believe. He says its more likely the majority are not trained spies but paid informants. But he says there's plenty of evidence to prove that Chinese intelligence agents use illegal methods to spy on and disrupt the Falun Gong.

It doesn't surprise me in the least. The overwhelming number of Chinese in Canada (450,000 in Toronto alone) means it wouldn't be too difficult for any spy to blend in and infiltrate Chinese community, where people assume they are honest Canadian citizens like themselves. Hopefully this won't lead to parnoaic policies and attitudes, but CSIS should definetly get off its ass and do something about it. CSIS was once one of the best spy-busting organizations in the world. I wonder if they're still that good?

I'm wondering if the thousand spys thing is some sort of quota they've been set? I can just imagine Mao demanding a thousand spys in every western country and then a short while later his flunkies telling, "Oh yes, we have a thousand spies in every western country boss, twice as many in the U.S."

The flunkies have probably been keeping the game going ever since. When their bosses want the lastest secret information the supposedly thousands of agents have collected, the flunkies probably just download some stuff from the internet. "Here you go, boss."

If there are a thousand Chinese spies in Australia and Canada, it could be a good little money earner for those countries. Most secret industrial processes are only suited for high tech, high capital industries which aren't terribly well suited for low currently low capital China, so they probably make much use of what they steal, and think of all the money that China must be spending to support those spies. It could be bringing millions of dollars in every year. Just one more way to reduce the trade deficit.


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I suppose eventually that people will come to understand that China is not exactly a friendly power towards the west. Until that time I expect more of the same (stolen nuclear secrets, rocket technology &c.)

Can't say I am surprised.

In fact had you asked me; "how many Chinese spies are there in Canada?", my answer would always have been: "a lot".

ACK, don't let them find out the secret to turning maple sap into maple syrup by boiling it...whoops...I guess I just spilled Canada's big secret.

Nothing more to see here, Chinese spies, go home.

Funny, in highschool (in the 80's) the common slang term for all asians was "spies"...welcome to Hongcouver.

I don't know if those who produced those reports know their math but 1,000 Chinese spies in countries of little value like Australia or Canada simply don't make sense. 1000 in America looks reasonable but in Australia or Canada? That's just absurd.

I'm not supportive of the Chinese government but the claims from NTDTV and Falun Gong are just plain horse sh*t. After all, they're a bunch of wankers too!

I suppose eventually that people will come to understand that China is not exactly a friendly power towards the west. Until that time I expect more of the same (stolen nuclear secrets, rocket technology &c.)

Can't say I am surprised.

In fact had you asked me; "how many Chinese spies are there in Canada?", my answer would always have been: "a lot".

What is it with some of you people's fascination with http://www.softwar.net/ ? That site's a load of neo-con B.S.

If there are a thousand Chinese spies in Australia and Canada, it could be a good little money earner for those countries. Most secret industrial processes are only suited for high tech, high capital industries which aren't terribly well suited for low currently low capital China, so they probably make much use of what they steal, and think of all the money that China must be spending to support those spies. It could be bringing millions of dollars in every year. Just one more way to reduce the trade deficit.

Spying for tech in Australia? China has a higher industrial standard than Australia will ever have. Don't forget that they needed Chinese launch facilities for their satellites in the '90s.

I don't know if those who produced those reports know their math but 1,000 Chinese spies in countries of little value like Australia or Canada simply don't make sense. 1000 in America looks reasonable but in Australia or Canada? That's just absurd.

Ah... you think they're of little value... but China knows better. Oh yes. China knows better.

-- well, you come up with a better explanation than completely nonsensical meaningful-yet-meaningless dark and doomful statements.

EDIT:

Don't forget that they needed Chinese launch facilities for their satellites in the '90s.

I'd guess that has more to do with the fact that equatorial launch sites are a lot more efficient, myself... I mean, the ESA uses some country down in Africa, and I'm fairly sure it's not more advanced than the UK.

None of those sources referring to 1000 spies is accurate. I wouldn't trust the defect's voice either, since he probably wants to look good in font of his new masters. What the officially intel. departments of the said countries have to say about this would be highly confidential for the average, tax paying, ballot box individual to access.

Numerically it would not be viable nor beneficial for China as it's only espionage academy could not possibly have churned out so many qualified and English-speaking individuals to infiltrate these countries. China's intelligence funding is believed (by many Western intel. agencies) to receive the lowest levels of defense funding (the military's upgrades must come first for the Chinese).

Even if such claims are true, how many Western spies were in the USSR during the Cold War and vice versa? "OMFG! 1000 James Bond Chinks in some Western country" just another lame example of some rumour about China being exploited by Sinophobes to path the way for concentration camps in places like America.

I'd guess that has more to do with the fact that equatorial launch sites are a lot more efficient, myself... I mean, the ESA uses some country down in Africa, and I'm fairly sure it's not more advanced than the UK.

That launch facility isn't built on African technology. The ESA built it in some country where they saw was suitable (with the equator in the way and all) What Australia did was relying on Chinese technology to get the job done. Which is nothing more than comparing that with Dennis Tito being the first space tourist using Russian technology.

That launch facility isn't built on African technology. The ESA built it in some country where they saw was suitable (with the equator in the way and all) What Australia did was relying on Chinese technology to get the job done. Which is nothing more than comparing that with Dennis Tito being the first space tourist using Russian technology.

I stand corrected. Thanks for that little bit of information. I do wonder, though, whether it wasn't just Australia going 'Well, there's a launch site set up nearby, we might as well use it', rather than any real lack of technology. I think the ESA uses NASA launch sites from time to time (although on this, again, I could be wrong).

Numerically it would not be viable nor beneficial for China as it's only espionage academy could not possibly have churned out so many qualified and English-speaking individuals to infiltrate these countries. China's intelligence funding is believed (by many Western intel. agencies) to receive the lowest levels of defense funding (the military's upgrades must come first for the Chinese).

Sure, it wouldn't be financially viable to have 1000 trained AGENTS in Australia or Canada, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to think there might be 1000 paid informants. Either way, it'd be nice to get any information the attempted defectors have.

On a different note, if those attempted defectors are rejected by Australia and sent home, they'll be killed. They might be embellishing their stories to make themselves appear more valuable to the Australian Government, but then again, they might not be. Can we really take the risk of letting information about a large foriegn spy ring slip through our fingers? (This debate has been raging here in Australia for weeks now.)

I1000 in America looks reasonable but in Australia or Canada? That's just absurd.

*strains of theremin music swell eerily as your screen fades to a kitschy monochrome replete with scan lines*

DOBBS enters camera LEFT, smoking COFFIN-NAIL brand cigarette, manner grave, eyebrow arched, looking directly into camera.

DOBBS: Absurd? Why, just do the math. Canada has a population of roughly 30 million. America has a population of 300 million.

CAMERA TWO

DOBBS: To maintain a similar network in the United States, Red China would need 10,000 Communist operatives.

CAMERA ONE CLOSE-UP

DOBBS points menacingly into camera.

DOBBS: They could be anyone...your neighbours, your co-workers, your family members...or you.

Theremin music reaches crescendo, fade to black, text super "Brought to You by The Committee To Re-Invoke The Looming Threat Of The Yellow Peril".

Or the defectors could just be plants saying that to see how many intelligence agencies will get off their collective backsides and scramble around looking for the dreaded Chinese information network.

Not only is it a good laugh, you can also learn a lot about a persons tactics and procedure by watching how they operate.

How many people thought of that rather than jumping up and down while going "oh noes! we've got spies!" I wonder? =p

Spying for tech in Australia? China has a higher industrial standard than Australia will ever have. Don't forget that they needed Chinese launch facilities for their satellites in the '90s.Per head of population Australia produces more patents per year than China or the United States.

And I think you'll find industry in China to be a little more labour intensive, with a bit less high tech capital investment than in Australia.

I fully believe that there are 1000 spies AND informants in Australia and pretty much all the claims by the three Chinese defecters in Australia. I also think that the government should stop dragging it's feet and give them asylum rather than capitulating to an appeasement policy. As for Canada, well, I wouldn't be too surprised if the number of operatives reached 1000, provided you counted the many occasional informers.

I stand corrected. Thanks for that little bit of information. I do wonder, though, whether it wasn't just Australia going 'Well, there's a launch site set up nearby, we might as well use it', rather than any real lack of technology. I think the ESA uses NASA launch sites from time to time (although on this, again, I could be wrong).

Well, the case with the Australian choice was that they actually have faith in the lower cost but equally advanced Chinese technology than paying NASA. I'm not the best man around here to the subject of aerospace but did the ESA actually have a launch facilities in Africa. I thought their only offshore (from Europe) one was in Devil's Is. in the French Guyana in South America.

I fully believe that there are 1000 spies AND informants in Australia and pretty much all the claims by the three Chinese defecters in Australia. I also think that the government should stop dragging it's feet and give them asylum rather than capitulating to an appeasement policy. As for Canada, well, I wouldn't be too surprised if the number of operatives reached 1000, provided you counted the many occasional informers.

What sort of information in Australia would be so interesting to the Chinese? I would very much doubt that claim as spy networks are meant to be autonomous and efficient. More agents, more loose ends. In order for efficient operations, there cannot be too many knowing too much. Just as in restaurant cooking, too many cooks spoil the soup.

Why not present the problem to a mathematician? 1000, even 500 would be a highly exaggerated figure.

How does the 1000 figure stand anyway? The Chinese are Asians, infiltrating in the White man's countries would require more than English skills if not, plastic surgery (which would be very bizzarre). Are we talking about double agents (from some Western agencies) and traitors here? These people are probably tempted by the money, spying has never been always for king and country. Moonlighting and double agents were never uncommon.

I fully believe that there are 1000 spies AND informants in Australia and pretty much all the claims by the three Chinese defecters in Australia. I also think that the government should stop dragging it's feet and give them asylum rather than capitulating to an appeasement policy. As for Canada, well, I wouldn't be too surprised if the number of operatives reached 1000, provided you counted the many occasional informers.

If they've defected so closely in time and from the same department, they must have sorted out the story amongst themselves to conclude on the 1000 lie. My advice to the Australian government is that these people cannot be trusted as they're doing nothing by trying to save their own skin by pleasing their new masters. How would the Australians know that they're actually all part of some grand espionage scheme used by China (first step being to infiltrate as defectors)?

How does the 1000 figure stand anyway? The Chinese are Asians, infiltrating in the White man's countries would require more than English skills if not, plastic surgery (which would be very bizzarre). Are we talking about double agents (from some Western agencies) and traitors here? These people are probably tempted by the money, spying has never been always for king and country. Moonlighting and double agents were never uncommon.

There are significant Asian populations in Canada and the US. It wouldn't be all that hard to slip agents into either country and have them blend into the ethnic background.

What sort of information in Australia would be so interesting to the Chinese? I would very much doubt that claim as spy networks are meant to be autonomous and efficient. More agents, more loose ends. In order for efficient operations, there cannot be too many knowing too much. Just as in restaurant cooking, too many cooks spoil the soup.

Why not present the problem to a mathematician? 1000, even 500 would be a highly exaggerated figure.

There are three things that I think may be of interest to China about Australia: Firstly, Australia recieves a good deal of intelligence from the US; Secondly, Falun Gong (Sp); Thirdly, China will want to ensure that Australia as a potential free trade partner isn't going to screw them. I'm sure China has spies in most countries and most of them are probably innoculous, but I never said there were 1000 Chinese spies in Australia. I said 1000 Chinese spies and informants, and to be a casual informant you wouldn't really have to do much, if you hear of anything of interest to the government you might tell a government employee casually. Not actually spying.

If they've defected so closely in time and from the same department, they must have sorted out the story amongst themselves to conclude on the 1000 lie. My advice to the Australian government is that these people cannot be trusted as they're doing nothing by trying to save their own skin by pleasing their new masters. How would the Australians know that they're actually all part of some grand espionage scheme used by China (first step being to infiltrate as defectors)?

Two have defected over the last two weeks, one from the Sydney consulate and one from Melbourne, the third was revealed this week, he defected late last year but we've only just found out about it.

The number of 1,000 does seem to be a bit high, but then if the 'informants' are included in that, it ain't so unbelievable.

There are significant Asian populations in Canada and the US. It wouldn't be all that hard to slip agents into either country and have them blend into the ethnic background.

Blending into their ethnic background means that all they can do is monitor movements outlawed back home. But it's blending in with the White man that matters.

Maybe the red's are gonna invade we australians and canadia(i know there's no N if it's pronounced canadian then the country wshould be call canadia like mexica) Though there's no point in invading such sparesly populated countries when one is one of the driest on earth and the other is friggin cold.

Two have defected over the last two weeks, one from the Sydney consulate and one from Melbourne, the third was revealed this week, he defected late last year but we've only just found out about it.

They must have been planning that for years in order to jump the immigration queue. LOL! Seriously, such a risky undertaking would require at least two months of planning. Since they come from the same department, these men have connections.

Maybe the red's are gonna invade we australians and canadia(i know there's no N if it's pronounced canadian then the country wshould be call canadia like mexica) Though there's no point in invading such sparesly populated countries when one is one of the driest on earth and the other is friggin cold.

Are you drunk? That makes no goddamn sense. And clear up those spelling errors.

They must have been planning that for years in order to jump the immigration queue. LOL! Seriously, such a risky undertaking would require at least two months of planning. Since they come from the same department, these men have connections.

LOL Queue jumpers! You could be right! ;) But they do come from at least two diffrent departments, one is from security services and another is a diplomat, the third I don't know.

There are three things that I think may be of interest to China about Australia: Firstly, Australia recieves a good deal of intelligence from the US; Secondly, Falun Gong (Sp); Thirdly, China will want to ensure that Australia as a potential free trade partner isn't going to screw them. I'm sure China has spies in most countries and most of them are probably innoculous, but I never said there were 1000 Chinese spies in Australia. I said 1000 Chinese spies and informants, and to be a casual informant you wouldn't really have to do much, if you hear of anything of interest to the government you might tell a government employee casually. Not actually spying.

Casual informants could not be classed as 'spies' since it's more of a weekend hobby than an actual career like the real spy. If so, the 1000 figure needs to be reviewed. Besides, what useful information can these weekend wannabes be able to provide, other than tourist brochures?

Falun Gong, being an outlawed organization would have to be monitored even overseas, just an any other organization that gets blacklisted by any other country. That should not be anyone else's serious business. Falun Gong is also neither beneficial nor seriously malevolent to their adopted countries.

U.S. intelligence regarding what? In Afghanistan, the Chinese have even supplied terror information to the U.S. (collected from Uighur terror suspects that are known to pass through Afghanistan). Every country has spying activities elsewhere. Because of the Chinese sensation, is Mossad being overlooked? Mossad agents can even tap the U.S. President's telephone(s) and any intelligence is to their interest.

Blending into their ethnic background means that all they can do is monitor movements outlawed back home. But it's blending in with the White man that matters.
You obviously don't know much about Canadian demographics. Canada actually has a huge asian population - proportionally much larger than the US's I think. The Vancouver area (on the west coast) is now over 50% asian, and it's very common in large parts of Vancouver to see signs written in Chinese.

You also seem to have a rather ill-formed opinion of Canada's level of industrial advancement. Canada is certainly not the super power the US is, but Canada's industry is just as technologically advanced as the US's. Due to free trade both countries share a great deal.

If I were in charge of China's industrial espionage it seems to me that Canada would be the ideal place to position spies. Since Chinese are much more prevalent in Canada, it would be much easier to get spies into positions of trust, and the potential benefits are nearly as great as those in the US.

As for the actual number of spies - I have no real basis for determining how many spies are economically feasible, and I somehow doubt you do either. But I suspect that the number of spies a country as large as China can field is rather larger than you seen to think.

LOL Queue jumpers! You could be right! ;) But they do come from at least two diffrent departments, one is from security services and another is a diplomat, the third I don't know.

I don't know why I come up with such witty remarks all the time. Back in the '80s when a lot of Western immigration departments were still ignorant about China, some Chinese bastards jumped the queue by coming in as false refugees claiming that the governemnt will cut their dicks off for breaching the one-child policy (exploiting the lack of 'human rights' stereotype). LOL!

It took them years to find out that in China, if these people had committed such 'offenses' they would simply be fined (like many other minor crimes).

As a side note, because of Canada's large asian population, I think Canada has a stronger Falung Gong movement than the US - I've spent a lot of time in Vancouver, Chicago, and New York, and I've seen Falung Gong rallies only in Vancouver, though I imagine they occur in the other two cities, if less frequently. So if China is set on disturbing this movement, Canada is a natural place to focus attention.

As for the actual number of spies - I have no real basis for determining how many spies are economically feasible, and I somehow doubt you do either. But I suspect that the number of spies a country as large as China can field is rather larger than you seen to think.

I am aware of the demographics (my father studied in Canada in the '80s) and the level of technological advancement (my father is an engineer). But 1000 is still an unbelievable figure. I would believe that there are more Mossad agents in in Canada than Chinese agents. Sure, China's got a huge population, but how many can actually qualify to be considered for the training to be spies? English would be difficult for a culture that has no background in it, unlike the Israelis (no to mention the U.S. connections).

'Tis natural for countries to spy on each other, just as they need to trade with each other. The bigger worry would be to safeguard the necessary secrets so that rival agents have nothing to report back.

I'll fix my post up when you get rid of the double post.
And it made sense to me :)

As a side note, because of Canada's large asian population, I think Canada has a stronger Falung Gong movement than the US - I've spent a lot of time in Vancouver, Chicago, and New York, and I've seen Falung Gong rallies only in Vancouver, though I imagine they occur in the other two cities, if less frequently. So if China is set on disturbing this movement, Canada is a natural place to focus attention.

That's probably the sort of sh*t only those weekend hobbiests would be interested in. For example:

*Overseas Chinese spy wannabe (who has yet to settle down in his new country)) walks into the local consulate.*

"I demand to speak to the the consul! There are some Falun Gongs protesting outside the consulate. Look!"

Receptionist: "We know. We have glass window, kid!"

1000 is such an unbelievable figure. The Chinese being so hardworking and discriminated when they try to seek work, would they actually have the time to be weekend hobbiests that make up such a high estimate?

I am aware of the demographics (my father studied in Canada in the '80s) and the level of technological advancement (my father is an engineer). But 1000 is still an unbelievable figure. I would believe that there are more Mossad agents in in Canada than Chinese agents. Sure, China's got a huge population, but how many can actually qualify to be considered for the training to be spies? English would be difficult for a culture that has no background in it, unlike the Israelis (no to mention the U.S. connections).

'Tis natural for countries to spy on each other, just as they need to trade with each other. The bigger worry would be to safeguard the necessary secrets so that rival agents have nothing to report back.
Learning to speak English is as far as I know, not all tht uncommon in China. Here's a link (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=14057) to a discussion that contains some interesting figures on the topic. Many Chinese are learning English because it has become the international language of business.

Besides, Chinese is the third most spoken language in Canada (after English and French) so it would be entirely possible that some of the spies aren't fluent English speakers.

For a country with a population of over a billion, 1000 spies in the country you have the most spies in just doesn't seem all that extreme to me.

But they do come from at least two diffrent departments, one is from security services and another is a diplomat, the third I don't know.

All overseas government departments operating must be linked to the intelligence department. It's common sense. Otherwise, who's gonna tell them that there's a terror threat coming the embassy's way? All diplomats are known to have been in contact with intelligence of some sort. In fact, the only figure of the network that's visible is the military attache in the embassy (he's the 'spy master', but his diplomatic immunity and military cover will make him impossible to prosecute).

Since the departments of these men work together, they must have some sort of links. Even before they have entered Australia, they may have already planned the series of lies in order to get asylum.

If their information is so valuable against China, why didn't they bid for place in the US or UK to defect? Or at least attempt to defect to these countries via Australia?

Learning to speak English is as far as I know, not all tht uncommon in China. Here's a link (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=14057) to a discussion that contains some interesting figures on the topic. Many Chinese are learning English because it has become the international language of business.

Besides, Chinese is the third most spoken language in Canada (after English and French) so it would be entirely possible that some of the spies aren't fluent English speakers.

For a country with a population of over a billion, 1000 spies in the country you have the most spies in just doesn't seem all that extreme to me.

If they're not educated in the West, they won't be able to speak English for sh*t no matter how hard they try. I've seen this too often amongst the wannabes in China. It's only fun to watch and painful to consider. I bet these people you’re describing, if they’re reading this thread, they’ll be having a dictionary in hand and maybe their tutor standing next to them.

Don’t forget that 1 billion are peasants. What are they going to do, assassinate foreign military figures by flinging a hoe? There’s simply not enough people to be qualified for spying in the West (just the language barrier is more than enough). Now if there’s 1000 in Taiwan Is., I wouldn’t be surprised at all as many locals would provide assistance. Don’t forget that China’s more concerned with the intelligence of real enemies (separatists), rather than knowing who’s the next American Idol just a few days beforehand.

Remember, "Harro! I'm rooking for intelligence." is obviously not the way to go!