NationStates Jolt Archive


Is American Neoconservativism destroying the world?

President Shrub
16-06-2005, 02:34
Take a look at a website called The American Taliban (http://www.reandev.com/taliban/) and you tell me. All of these people vote for (or ARE) Republican. They support removing separation of church and state, they oppose gay rights, they oppose feminism, they believe simply learning about Communism is evil, and many other hateful ideologies.

People sometimes ask why they're called, "Republicans." Well, a Republic was originally meant to mean a representative democracy (originally from Rome), where officials are either appointed or elected, to represent the people, because the people aren't intelligent enough to make decisions for themselves. The philosopher, Plato, wrote about this in, "The Republic", an essay explaining that we need a 'philosopher king' to lie the people, or else immorality and stupidity will lead to societal collapse. I believe the Republic-ans ideology stems from this: That, because they percieve themselves to be 'good' people, that it is their duty to be authoritarianly moralistic in their policies, except rather than seeing themselves as philosopher kings, they see themselves as Judeo-Christian Gods of morality.

Democracy, however, first began in Greece. And it was direct-democracy. Their Congress was formed of the first 6,000 people to show up, every day. So, I'd say that Democracy inherently supports freedom. Yes, they're tough against business, but that's because being weak against business hurts freedom. Because then it's not "every man for himself", but "some hardworking men against some major corporations who make major business mistakes like producing the Britney Spears reality show, and yet still stay in business because of their immense wealth." Liberals simply try to keep things "fair and balanced."

Someone asked, recently, if Liberalism is destroying America. Well, ladies and gentlemen of Nationstates, I'd like to take a look at the past several years of the Bush presidency.

#1. Voting fraud? During Bush's first and second elections, we faced the first major allegations of "voting fraud" in history. This does not go without evidence, as the people who owned corporations that designed the electronic voting machines were Republican. Because there is no government agency to oversee voting, they faced little or no oversight. In Florida, it's accepted that there were "unlawful" methods of counting-votes, as every single inconsistency in Florida favored Republicans, and the President. Coincidentally, the governor of Florida is Bush's father. They have not found anyone guilty, but there have only been selective investigations into voting fraud, never a full and accurate re-count (especially since the many machines had no paper-trail). Right before the elections, an independent organization was able to prove that a monkey was able to hack the electronic voting machines. Though criminal activity was never conclusively proven, the limited investigations showed that they threw out a large disparity of votes from Hispanics, Blacks, and poor Caucasians. The NAACP, an organization largely founded by Dr. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks only 60 years ago, demanded that the President answer to this. He refused to even meet with them and soon after that, the I.R.S. threatened to start taxing the NAACP if they didn't stay out of politics.

#2. Public support? President Bush also holds the record for being the first President to have eggs thrown at his limo during his inauguration ceremony, and also, the first President to not even perform an inauguration ceremony, after being elected. The creators of South Park also had a show called, "That's My Bush!", on Comedy Central, continuously mocking him, through a parody of the President as an imbecile. No President in history has ever faced such public humiliation. No, in the past, while many disagreed with the President's policies, being the President was a noble and honorable position. Now, it's become the equivalent of being the head of a corporation. And yet, despite this clear public disapproval, in 2004, Bush recieved a "mandate." Exit-polls are not done simply for fun. They are so accurate, in fact, that they are used to determine whether an election has been fixed in foreign countries. In the United States' 2004 election, exit-polls showed Kerry winning with a slight lead. But the actual election results showed that Bush had a "mandate" (for having more than 50% of the vote, which is extremely rare). According to recent Gallup polls, Bush's public support is at an all-time low (44% approve, 55% disapprove) and a record low, for a two-term president at this point.

#3. The economy? President Bush gave the largest tax-cut in history. Basic economics tells you: If you do a massive tax-cut, you need to make up for it by decreasing spending. To pay off the national debt, Bush should've actually cut spending by even more than the tax-cut. So, Bush's tax-cut (almost all towards the top income brack) was $664 billion. Conservatives, did Bush reduce spending by $664 billion? No. In fact, Bush's own economic advisors were disturbed. U.S. Treasury Secretary, Paul O'Neill, was asked to resign because he disagreed with Bush's tax-cuts (and he was appointed by Bush). White House Chief Economic Advisor, Larry Lindsey, also resigned because he agreed that Bush's tax-cuts simply weren't economically sane. And what happened? We didn't reduce spending, went on two wars, and as expected, the national debt increased by several trillion dollars, continuing to grow at an exponential rate. Before Bush was elected in 2000, he claimed he had a plan to pay off the national debt in 15 years. He lied.

#4. The PATRIOT Act. It was almost unanimously put through Congress, but afterwards, all Democrats and several Republicans opposed it, declaring it unconstitutional. According to the ACLU's website, resolutions have been passed in 377 communities in 43 states including five state-wide resolutions. These communities represent approximately 56.9 million people who oppose sections of the USA PATRIOT Act. The ACLU also documented numerous Republican Congressman who supported revising or repealing the PATRIOT Act (found here) (http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12632&c=206). Many have said Democracy is no more in America, and that we've turned into a police state. I'd agree. A while ago, a U.S. Army Muslim Chaplain, named James Yee, who worked at Guantanamo Bay was jailed for almost three months, falsely accused of espionage. After being released, he has since left the U.S. Army, but then again, who wouldn't? And just recently, the U.S. sent a Canadian citizen to Syria, because he's been accused of terrorism. The Canadian government has demanded evidence, but the United States refuses to provide it. If you read up on the Office of Special Plans and the Office of Strategic Influence... Yes. We are a police state.

#5. "Liberal" media? The President also set a political precedent by being the first President to use propaganda (and only the second politician to do so, since William Randolph Hearst). President Bush paid TV show host, Armstrong Williams, a quarter of a million dollars to talk about how great the "No Child Left Behind" program, which has been largely underfunded, and criticized by African-Americans.

#6. Privatizing Social Security. According to one news report I'd read, President Bush went on several months of campaigning to increase support. But polls shows that it had the opposite effect, actually decreasing support and currently, the legislation has been described as "dead." Republicans claim there is a Democratic filibuster, but polls show that there is most of the public don't support Bush's social security policies.

#7. "Improving" intelligence. Despite millions of dollars of extra funding, the PATRIOT Act being passed, and Bush's own personal agency ("The Office of Special Plans"), that outranked all other agencies and oversaw all U.S. intelligence, we've still had numerous embarassing intelligence failures (which he cites, I'm sure, as reason to renew the PATRIOT Act and add new provisions), and rather than taking responsibility for it, or even having Under Secretary of Defense Feith take responsibility, the blame was shifted solely upon Tenet's shoulders, which he had originally strongly denied, but later admitted their faults, and resigned, becoming "the fall guy."

#8. The Environment? I asked my mother once, who is a moderate Republican, "What's Bush's environmental policy?" She responded, "DRILL!" Since Bush has taken office, he has started drilling for oil in the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge. And while it's true that almost all of global warming is caused by natural causes, rather than being honest about the issue, he hired an oil-lobbyist as the head of White House Department For Environmental Quality, who had revised scientific reports against the scientists' wishes. After it was discovered, the official resigned, claiming his resignation had nothing to do with it. Right.

I have nothing against Conservativism, as it's a distinct political idealogy with its own strong, philosophical arguments behind it. But "Neoconservativism", in America, has become a euphemism for Fascism. The Republicans are no longer a 'Conservative' party, but Neoconservative. Is Neoconservativism destroying America? Yes.
Blessed Misfortune
16-06-2005, 02:36
Neoconservatives aren't anti-communist.
Vetalia
16-06-2005, 02:37
Well, what to expect from one of America's worst presidents. I would have repealed the 22nd Amendment just to get Clinton back in to clean up his mess (just like he did in 92 when Bush Sr. screwed up).

Bush is the most wasteful spender, and has never vetoed a spending bill.
Three (or four) consecutive 300bln plus deficits, an unwinnable situation in Iraq, and all of this from the neoconservatism that has taken over our government.


So the answer is: Yes, resoundingly
Achtung 45
16-06-2005, 02:44
of course they are. they're screwing up American edumacation, American jobs, dawning American energy crisis, American economy, American reputation throughout the world, the only thing they haven't screwed up are their own wallets.
The Motor City Madmen
16-06-2005, 02:46
My wallet has never been thicker. Thanks Bush.
Neo-Anarchists
16-06-2005, 02:48
I have nothing against Conservativism, as it's a distinct political idealogy with its own strong, philosophical arguments behind it. But "Neoconservativism", in America, has become a euphemism for Fascism. The Republicans are no longer a 'Conservative' party, but Neoconservative. Is Neoconservativism destroying America? Yes.
Neoconservativism is not Fascism. Fascism generally involves mergers of corporate and state power, strictly regimented economic and social control, exalting race and/or nation above the individual, is totalitarian, etc.

Neoconservativism is generally characterized by opposition to Communism, civil equality for blacks and such, interventionist foreign policy, and free-market belief, with an agressive approach to foreign policy.

You're doing just as badly as the people on the anti-liberal thread.
Blessed Misfortune
16-06-2005, 02:51
Neoconservativism is not Fascism. Fascism generally involves mergers of corporate and state power, strictly regimented economic and social control, exalting race and/or nation above the individual, is totalitarian, etc.

Neoconservativism is generally characterized by opposition to Communism, civil equality for blacks and such, interventionist foreign policy, and free-market belief, with an agressive approach to foreign policy.

You're doing just as badly as the people on the anti-liberal thread.

Neoconservatives aren't opposed to communism. Look at how friendly President Smirk is to President Putrid, or how friendly the Actor was to President Garbageoff.
Turkishsquirrel
16-06-2005, 02:53
More proof that I should run for president, but I'm 14.
The Second Holy Empire
16-06-2005, 02:56
I'm sorry, all I read was some liberal crying about Bush, did I miss something?


No.
Saskatoon Saskatchewan
16-06-2005, 02:57
I think extremism is destorying the world.
Turkishsquirrel
16-06-2005, 02:59
I think extremism is destorying the world.
Very true
Neo-Anarchists
16-06-2005, 03:01
Neoconservatives aren't opposed to communism. Look at how friendly President Smirk is to President Putrid, or how friendly the Actor was to President Garbageoff.
Umm, Russia wasn't Communist under Putin, so Putin doesn't count. I don't know anything about Gorbachev and his relation with Reagan, but I do know that Reagan was a supplier of information on Communism in Hollywood to the HUAAC. Also, Reagan viewed himself as an anticommunist, from what I have heard of him. From what I had heard, he based much of his presidency around the abolition of Communism.

Regardless of whether some of the people involved in it were anticommunist, from what I had heard, the neoconservative movement was formed partially in response to the leftward drift of American politics at that time. I had heard that it was staunchly against Communism during the Cold War. It also seeks to support democratic capitalism around the world in place of other systems.

Do you have sources? I am just going on what I have heard, so I'd like to know if you have some information about this that I didn't know of, or if I am wrong.
President Shrub
16-06-2005, 03:05
Neoconservativism is not Fascism. Fascism generally involves mergers of corporate and state power, strictly regimented economic and social control, exalting race and/or nation above the individual, is totalitarian, etc.
#1. Mergers of corporate and state power: Haliburton. The American government, in general, is a merger between corporate and state power. Both the Reform Party and the Green Party, both at different sides of the political spectrum, agree with this. Nearly 75% of Americans agree corporations have too much effect on politics.

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_37/b3698001.htm

#2. Neoconservatives don't need politics for economic control, as they all have very strong ties to the private sector (though I'm sure Democrats do too). And they're VERY strong on social control. No contraception in schools, no homosexuality in schools, Christianity SHOULD be in schools and government buildings, no abortion, no illegal immigrants, no labor-unions, and so on. Furthermore, the propaganda scandal speaks for itself. Hitler, Mussolini, and the Soviet Union put out propaganda as well.

#3. I agree with everything you said, except for "civil equality for blacks." The Bush administration outright ignored the NAACP and sent the I.R.S. after them. And I'm not a racist, I hate all forms of prejudice. But look at how many anti-Arab Jewish Supremacists there are in the White House. Doug Feith said he thinks Israel should stop the "comprehensive peace" approach and start going towards a "balance of power." Zionists and some Orthodox Jews have very racist beliefs. They absolutely exalt race over the individual... which is possibly one reason why they don't give a shit about torturing Muslims. Many REAL Conservative Republicans are challenging the U.S. on Gitmo, but the majority of the Republicans just don't give a shit.

You also ignore the fact that fascists have an obsession with the military, which the Neoconservatives do.
Blessed Misfortune
16-06-2005, 03:06
Umm, Russia wasn't Communist under Putin, so Putin doesn't count. I don't know anything about Gorbachev and his relation with Reagan, but I do know that Reagan was a supplier of information on Communism in Hollywood to the HUAAC. Also, Reagan viewed himself as an anticommunist, from what I have heard of him. From what I had heard, he based much of his presidency around the abolition of Communism.

Regardless of whether some of the people involved in it were anticommunist, from what I had heard, the neoconservative movement was formed partially in response to the leftward drift of American politics at that time. I had heard that it was staunchly against Communism during the Cold War. It also seeks to support democratic capitalism around the world in place of other systems.

Do you have sources? I am just going on what I have heard, so I'd like to know if you have some information about this that I didn't know of, or if I am wrong.

Yes, Putrid is a communist. The Soviet Collapse was utterly phony, as documented by Soviet defectors such as Anatoliy Golitsyn and Stanislaw Lunev. And Reagan, in addition to being known as "Red Ronnie," when he was younger, was a real sucker for detente (remember that treaty he signed with Garbageoff) and an underminer of loyal anticommunist allies like Stroessner, Marcos, and Pinochet.
Robot ninja pirates
16-06-2005, 03:08
I agree with you on a good many things, but Bush is most certainly not the first president to use propoganda. Propoganda simply means a statement supporting one side. It has nothign to do with lies or under-handedness (although that too is an old practice). Everytime someone says something along the lines of "I think this bill is good", that is propoganda.

Bush is most certainly not the first president or ruler to use propoganda, and he is not the first to use it as it is commonly thought of (twisted statistics, shady deals). It is as old as politics itself. That is one stigma he is undeserving of.
President Shrub
16-06-2005, 03:10
Yes, Putrid is a communist. The Soviet Collapse was utterly phony, as documented by Soviet defectors such as Anatoliy Golitsyn and Stanislaw Lunev. And Reagan, in addition to being known as "Red Ronnie," when he was younger, was a real sucker for detente (remember that treaty he signed with Garbageoff) and an underminer of loyal anticommunist allies like Stroessner, Marcos, and Pinochet.
YOU MEAN REAGAN DIDN'T END COMMUNISM!? THAT BASTARD! HE LIED TO US!
Vetalia
16-06-2005, 03:12
YOU MEAN REAGAN DIDN'T END COMMUNISM!? THAT BASTARD! HE LIED TO US!

Thoughts like those make you a Commu...Terrorist! Our country and our president, right or wrong!
Neo-Anarchists
16-06-2005, 03:24
Yes, Putrid is a communist. The Soviet Collapse was utterly phony, as documented by Soviet defectors such as Anatoliy Golitsyn and Stanislaw Lunev. And Reagan, in addition to being known as "Red Ronnie," when he was younger, was a real sucker for detente (remember that treaty he signed with Garbageoff) and an underminer of loyal anticommunist allies like Stroessner, Marcos, and Pinochet.
Err, could you back that up with some sources?
And you're going to need some pretty damn good sources if you want to claim that Russia is still Communist...
Leonstein
16-06-2005, 03:54
And Reagan, in addition to being known as "Red Ronnie," when he was younger, was a real sucker for detente (remember that treaty he signed with Garbageoff) and an underminer of loyal anticommunist allies like Stroessner, Marcos, and Pinochet.

What the? "Garbegeoff"? "Loyal anticommunist allies"? "Red Ronnie"?
I didn't know there still were people like that. I thought they all died out when McCarthy disappeared...
Who called the Soviets an evil empire again (in awesome diplomatic fashion)?
Pschycotic Pschycos
16-06-2005, 03:59
Let's not get all stereotypical folks. I can see that happening right now.
Domici
16-06-2005, 04:09
Neoconservativism is not Fascism. Fascism generally involves mergers of corporate and state power, strictly regimented economic and social control, exalting race and/or nation above the individual, is totalitarian, etc.

Neoconservativism is generally characterized by opposition to Communism, civil equality for blacks and such, interventionist foreign policy, and free-market belief, with an agressive approach to foreign policy.

You're doing just as badly as the people on the anti-liberal thread.

Does the term "revolving door politics" mean anything to you. Merging of state and corporate power is exactly what's going on under the Bush administration. Protestant Christianity is the "Aryan Race" of the administration. And they rampant unthinking patriotism. When MSNBC started interviewing american generals who thought the war was being waged badly FOX (the ministry of propoganda) ran a spot pointing this out and asked "is this America's news network?"

The neo-cons are fascists.
President Shrub
16-06-2005, 04:42
Does the term "revolving door politics" mean anything to you. Merging of state and corporate power is exactly what's going on under the Bush administration. Protestant Christianity is the "Aryan Race" of the administration.
LOL. Aryan Race. That's a very interesting way of putting it.

One correction, though: It's not all Fundamentalist Christians. Like I said, a lot of the Cabinet members are Orthodox and\or Zionist Jews. Dr. Dov S. Zakheim, Under Secretary of Defense for Comptroller is even a Rabbi!

So, no. What you said is close, when it comes to the elected officials, but they have a lot of close ties with and cabinet appointments of Jews that believe it's every woman's duty to have as many kids as possible, that masturbation is evil, that Jews are superior to all other races, and that the Orthodox Rabbis hold the ultimate authority on the Torah.

The reason they both sort of connect with eachother on Neoconservativism is because though the Fundamentalist Protestants consider themselves superior to the Fundamentalist Jews, and vice-versa, they both feel the same way on many key political issues, like gay marriage and a de-regulated economy.
Serene Chaos
16-06-2005, 05:55
Another problem is simple survival tactics by the churches.

Liberals, bless their hearts, haven't been open or acceptant to most church faiths. Many churchgoers identify them with homosexual rights groups, pro-choice groups, and the ACLU. Many, MANY Americans with fairly strong religous beliefs find a lot of what the Republican's do distasteful, but the alternative is, in their eyes, just as bad or worse.

At least with Bush we can be fairly sure we know what will happen. Politics works in a cycle. The very close nature of the electorate ensures that sooner or later liberals will (unfortunately) gain the upper hand again, and things will balance out.

Neo-conservatives are no worse and no better than hard-left liberals who call for classes in "History of Pornography" to be taught in middle school.
Dobbsworld
16-06-2005, 06:03
Neo-conservatives are no worse and no better than hard-left liberals who call for classes in "History of Pornography" to be taught in middle school.

I suppose a link is out of the question...
Serene Chaos
16-06-2005, 06:08
*rolls eyes in exasperation*

No, it isn't. I love hardened 'debaters' like you who never bother to read what someone rights, instead flinging about handfuls of links written by some other clueless sod who managed to get plastered over some biased site.

Anything I posted would be dismissed as either tangental or biased, since I doubt it would conform to your likes. I stopped posting links 2 years back.

Of course, it's always easier to overlook what someone says....I don't even know why I bother posting here.
Schrandtopia
16-06-2005, 06:18
Protestant Christianity is the "Aryan Race" of the administration.

which is why so many Catholics and muslims vote for him

FOX (the ministry of propoganda) ran a spot pointing this out and asked "is this America's news network?"

ok chief, its called capitalism. no matter what we do every news agancy has a slant, it can't be helped, call it human error. fox news realised that the other half of the country wanted news, they started a news station and made a killing. untill they actually work for the government you can't call it propaganda

The neo-cons are fascists.

except for the whole less government thing. that kinda makes them polar opposites
Americai
16-06-2005, 06:48
Neo-cons are destroying America. "Liberals" only hurt America when they give no regard to our founding history and attack the second ammendment rights bestowed to the populace.

Neo-cons however are fascist theocrats whom HAVE attacked our republic with many of the points mentioned by the topic poster. This isn't the first time those alligations came up.
President Shrub
16-06-2005, 07:34
I suppose a link is out of the question...

*rolls eyes in exasperation*

No, it isn't. I love hardened 'debaters' like you who never bother to read what someone rights, instead flinging about handfuls of links written by some other clueless sod who managed to get plastered over some biased site.

Anything I posted would be dismissed as either tangental or biased, since I doubt it would conform to your likes. I stopped posting links 2 years back.

Of course, it's always easier to overlook what someone says....I don't even know why I bother posting here.
Dobbs. I figured out what Democrats need to do. Start asking the Republicans for their sources, when they make ridiculous statements. They'll do what she just did, and quit politics.

Come on, you know it would work. How many times has Scott McClelland said, "I'm sorry, I haven't read..." and "I haven't seen that particular..."?
Non Aligned States
16-06-2005, 07:48
Wouldn't work Shrub. Asking for sources will probably be met with responses like "It will endanger American forces" or "Classified sources" or somethiing like that.
President Shrub
16-06-2005, 07:49
Fuck.
Undelia
16-06-2005, 07:52
Yes, Putrid is a communist. The Soviet Collapse was utterly phony, as documented by Soviet defectors such as Anatoliy Golitsyn and Stanislaw Lunev.

Yep. :)
Any revolution where the media doesn’t get cut off can pretty much be considered fake.
Dobbsworld
16-06-2005, 08:01
Yes, American Neoconservatism is destroying the world, faster, more thoroughly, and with greater pinstriped corporate efficiency than their Paleoconservative forebears.
Lovfro
16-06-2005, 08:14
Heheh, just reading through the quotaions page. This one really stood out:

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."
-Jerry Falwell

So according to him, only the prodigal son is to be saved? According to this loon, you cannot have been a christian consistenly without having 'failed'?

I'm agnostic, but I bet I have a better understanding of what it means to be a christian than this nut-job.
Fan Grenwick
16-06-2005, 08:32
I think extremism is destorying the world.


I totally agree with that statement, whether the extremism is conservative OR liberal. The ability to listen to another's opinion whether you agree with it or not that shows whether you are are an extremist or not.
I find that now aday that you are allowed to give your opinion as long as it agrees with everyone elses. If it doesn't go along with the so-called 'norm' then you are branded by the extremists of either sideas either neo-nazi or communistic.
Leard
16-06-2005, 08:53
"#1. Voting fraud? During Bush's first and second elections, we faced the first major allegations of "voting fraud" in history."

With such a display of ignorance it really isn't necessary to read any more of your post. Tammany Hall and Boss Tweed in New York. The Pendergast Machine in Kansas City. The Daley Machine in Chicago.