NationStates Jolt Archive

We've heard Bush say it in his clumsy (or folksy, depending on perspective) way on just about every issue. "They hate America, because they hate freedom." But who hates freedom more than the neocons?

Consider their assaults on the First Amendment alone...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Thomas Jefferson went further to interpret this phrase as establishing a "wall of separation between church and state," and that interpretation has been supported by Supreme Court decisions. So why are the neocons giving government money to evangelist churches in the guise of charity? Why are the neocons imposing their warped Christian sensibilities in places where they have no business, like Terri Shiavo's life or the Alabama courthouse?

or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;

The neocon assault on freedom of speech involves loyalty oaths to attend political rallies, a public propaganda campaign against legitimate media outlets (liberal bias!), and a control of access to the White House and information unparalleled in US history.

or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,

... so long as you don't assemble anywhere near where the president will be.

The case is clear, and not even worthy of debate. So, Republicans of the more immoderate stripe who defend President Bush, I ask you this: why do you hate America? And what have you got against freedom?

The NeoCons are mostly jews dude, they don't want a Christian Theocracy.

<snip>
Why are you making a generalized statement that is going to result in flaming etc.

The NeoCons are mostly jews dude, they don't want a Christian Theocracy.

I doubt that, since very few Jews vote Republican; that whole Jerry Falwell aspect frightens them, and any sane person, well away from the GOP.

I doubt that, since very few Jews vote Republican; that whole Jerry Falwell aspect frightens them, and any sane person, well away from the GOP.

Ironically, I have problems calling the GOP the GOP. There ain't anything grand 'bout that old party anymore. Reagan ****ing ruined it.

The NeoCons are mostly jews dude, they don't want a Christian Theocracy.

bitch please:
roberston, Reed, Cheney, ashcroft, rice,Rumsfeld, frist, DeLay and Gingrich are jewsih?

Ironically, I have problems calling the GOP the GOP. There ain't anything grand 'bout that old party anymore. Reagan ****ing ruined it.

Deficit Spending at its finest. For a party with so many businesspeople, it's stunning they could be so fiscally irresponsible. Good old trickle down theory...

Wow... We are in a flame-baiting mood today, are we not?

Wow... We are in a flame-baiting mood today, are we not?

Firing up the grill, so to speak.;)

bitch please:
roberston, Reed, Cheney, ashcroft, rice,Rumsfeld, frist, DeLay and Gingrich are jewsih?
None of those listed are neocons. Neoconservative doesn't simply mean republican, it is its own philosophical ideology. I'm not feeling in the mood for long explanations so just read wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_in_the_United_States

Ironically, I have problems calling the GOP the GOP. There ain't anything grand 'bout that old party anymore. Reagan ****ing ruined it.
Since Bush Sr, the GOP doesnt stand for Grand old party
It stands for God Over Politics.

None of those listed are neocons. Neoconservative doesn't simply mean republican, it is its own philosophical ideology. I'm not feeling in the mood for long explanations so just read wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_in_the_United_States

ok, most people complain at Gingrich, DeLay and Frist...and maybe Reed.( though they do have neoconish leanings)
But the rest Mainly gingrich, Rumsfeld and rice are simply neos that put up a very bad disguise as paleoconservatives
Youre als the first peron I know to challenge cheneys neoconnes...

ok, most people complain at Gingrich, DeLay and Frist...and maybe Reed.( though they do have neoconish leanings)
But the rest Mainly gingrich, Rumsfeld and rice are simply neos that put up a very bad disguise as paleoconservatives
Youre als the first peron I know to challenge cheneys neoconnes...
Thats because most people on NS have no idea about what they are talking about. They are called NEOconservatives becasue they for the most part are ex 60s leftists who turned to conservativism. Cheney was never anything more than a corporate robber barron.

Why are you making a generalized statement that is going to result in flaming etc.
The first post should not be considered flamebait. I'm simply taking a common neocon argument and turning it against them. It's fair comment. Plus, I've supported it better than they have, generally.



roberston, Reed, Cheney, ashcroft, rice,Rumsfeld, frist, DeLay and Gingrich are jewsih?

None of those listed are neocons. Neoconservative doesn't simply mean republican, it is its own philosophical ideology. I'm not feeling in the mood for long explanations so just read wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocon...e_United_States

You contradict yourself. From the very Wikipedia article you cite:

"Today, the most prominent supporters of the neoconservative stance inside the administration are Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz"

That's three of four Wiki names on Left crackpie's list. And Frist, DeLay, and Gingrich are definitely in line with those guys. The only arguable name on his list is Pat Robertson, who seems to me to be a paleo-conservative.

Ironically, I have problems calling the GOP the GOP. There ain't anything grand 'bout that old party anymore. Reagan ****ing ruined it.

Grand in the sense of rich, noble, and expansive. It is now the party of expanding government dedicated to the causes of the wealthy. "Noble" is in the most archaic sense of the word, i.e. an aristocracy.

By "old" they mean that they're trying to set up a system of government similar to that of the dark ages where the central government collapsed and all of the power belonged to those who had enough wealth to hire some goons to do their killing for them.

It's one of the ways that they occaisionally let little bits of ironic truth slip into their rhetoric.

Since Bush Sr, the GOP doesnt stand for Grand old party
It stands for God Over Politics.
Strangely enough, of late this explanation fits with my experience in this matter.

Grand in the sense of rich, noble, and expansive. It is now the party of expanding government dedicated to the causes of the wealthy. "Noble" is in the most archaic sense of the word, i.e. an aristocracy.

By "old" they mean that they're trying to set up a system of government similar to that of the dark ages where the central government collapsed and all of the power belonged to those who had enough wealth to hire some goons to do their killing for them.

It's one of the ways that they occaisionally let little bits of ironic truth slip into their rhetoric.
Again, Dom, you live to post and ROCK another day.
*bows*

The NeoCons are mostly jews dude, they don't want a Christian Theocracy.
Excuse me? Why would the Jewish peoples vote for a Christian lunatic and donate money to churches to fight for ideals that don't believe in? I think you just have a problem with Jews.

I doubt that, since very few Jews vote Republican; that whole Jerry Falwell aspect frightens them, and any sane person, well away from the GOP.

You are right regarding the 70ties and 80ties, but since the Republican party stands for massive arms deals with Israel and a rabiate anti muslim opinion, most Jews in the US reconverted to the intolerant wing of the Republican party (the Pearl/Wolfowitz intolerant neo fascist wing).My 2cents (and the 2 cents of most reports).

None of those listed are neocons. Neoconservative doesn't simply mean republican, it is its own philosophical ideology. I'm not feeling in the mood for long explanations so just read wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_in_the_United_States


You would think you would read your own damn sources....

Today, the most prominent supporters of the neoconservative stance inside the administration are Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, recently nominated to head the World Bank.

Indeed, the groups currently active most associated with the existing neocon movement include PNAC
(The initia; signatories to which are: Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes, Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis Libby, Norman Podhoretz, Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel, Paul Wolfowitz )

and the American Enterprise Institute, whose membership includes Lynne Cheney, Gingrich, and Richard Perle.



Cheney is not a neocon?


Puhlease!

You are right regarding the 70ties and 80ties, but since the Republican party stands for massive arms deals with Israel and a rabiate anti muslim opinion, most Jews in the US reconverted to the intolerant wing of the Republican party (the Pearl/Wolfowitz intolerant neo fascist wing).My 2cents (and the 2 cents of most reports).

The sad thing is is that they couldn't care less about the Jews but rather having an outopst in the middle east that they can broker arms deals with.

The sad thing is is that they couldn't care less about the Jews but rather having an outopst in the middle east that they can broker arms deals with.
Can't agree more, you just said it (almost) all in one line. Hat of to you.

... so long as you don't assemble anywhere near where the president will be.


1. He's been around US soldiers without first taking their ammunition away. Under Clinton, troops had to hand in their ammunition (and in some cases their weapons as well) before visiting with him. Bush is able to visit US troops in combat areas without taking this precaution. So among the people who are out there fighting the war, he's far from unpopular.

2. How do your assertions translate into "neocons hate America". There's nothing in your statements to support that assertion.

Excuse me? Why would the Jewish peoples vote for a Christian lunatic and donate money to churches to fight for ideals that don't believe in? I think you just have a problem with Jews.

Very few Jews, just a handful of the most right-wing crazies. Most people are unaware that there is such a thing as a right-wing fundy Jew because in the US most Jews are either acclimated reform Jews or peaceful, isolationist Hasidic Jews, both of which are very peaceful.

In case anyone thinks that this can somehow be construed as anti-semetic I'd like to point out that more than half my family is Jewish. I married into it, but still, it's mine now.

But the particular religous mythology that the religous neo-cons suscribe to is one that says that the "rapture" will begin when Jews own certain parts of the Middle East and Palestinians own the rest. They're trying to negotiate peace in such a way that Israel will cede certain parts of land to the Palestinians and Palestinians surrender the rest. This is taken to be "pro-Israel" because they're willing to blow up Palestinians.

1. He's been around US soldiers without first taking their ammunition away. Under Clinton, troops had to hand in their ammunition (and in some cases their weapons as well) before visiting with him. Bush is able to visit US troops in combat areas without taking this precaution. So among the people who are out there fighting the war, he's far from unpopular.
So Bush doesn't disarm the troops he commands? He trusts them not to murder him in front of their comrades and commanding officers? That's not exactly a ringing endorsement.

And of course, Bush doesn't have to worry about soldiers speaking out of turn when he visits them, because they have to answer to him. He is their commander-in-chief, after all. The chain of command ends at him. Freedom of speech does not exist for a servicemember when they are in uniform.

Also, I'd like to see a source to back up that claim that Clinton disarmed the troops on a visit. I can't find anything.

2. How do your assertions translate into "neocons hate America". There's nothing in your statements to support that assertion.
I dunno, you tell me. Bush believes that everyone who hates freedom hates America. If you believe that Bush is right, then you have to admit that Bush hates America, because he hates freedom. If he didn't hate freedom so much, he wouldn't be violating the Bill of Rights every chance he gets.

Conservatives have always hated freedom. They hate that some people are free to use shocking language, or pierce body parts, or listen to loud music, or engage in consensual sex, or terminate pregnancies, or refuse to believe in the Bible. They don't mind freedom so long as people are free to live their lives just like the conservatives do. They want freedom to play bingo on Fridays, but not freedom to wear baggy pants.

In a way, I can see where Bush is coming from. America is defined by a tradition and a selection of documents which espouse a libertarian doctrine. It's an integral part of the national identity. Therefore, anyone who opposes that doctrine not only opposes freedom, but also opposes America.

I love freedom. I love America (or at least the historical America and what it once stood for). That's why I'm libertarian. And that's why I hate the neocons.

I dunno, you tell me. Bush believes that everyone who hates freedom hates America. If you believe that Bush is right, then you have to admit that Bush hates America, because he hates freedom. If he didn't hate freedom so much, he wouldn't be violating the Bill of Rights every chance he gets.

Conservatives have always hated freedom. They hate that some people are free to use shocking language, or pierce body parts, or listen to loud music, or engage in consensual sex, or terminate pregnancies, or refuse to believe in the Bible. They don't mind freedom so long as people are free to live their lives just like the conservatives do. They want freedom to play bingo on Fridays, but not freedom to wear baggy pants.

You've got it all wrong. Our freedom makes us a target of the enemies of freedom. That's why Bush is sending all our freedom oversees. He's setting up decoy free countries. Of course, there's only so much freedom in the world, so all the freedom needed to make Iraq free means that there isn't as much left here.

The sad thing is is that they couldn't care less about the Jews but rather having an outopst in the middle east that they can broker arms deals with.

That's why their party's chairman is a Jew... :rolleyes:

You've got it all wrong. Our freedom makes us a target of the enemies of freedom. That's why Bush is sending all our freedom oversees. He's setting up decoy free countries. Of course, there's only so much freedom in the world, so all the freedom needed to make Iraq free means that there isn't as much left here.

I have never known a conservative to say anything remotely near that.

You don't know what you're talking about.

I have never known a conservative to say anything remotely near that.

You don't know what you're talking about.
Err... it's called satire, dude. I thought it was kinda funny, myself.

"Do Conservatives have a sense of humor?" is, perhaps a needed thread, but one for another time.

I have never known a conservative to say anything remotely near that.

You don't know what you're talking about.

If you don't understand satire, I suggest you read Jonathan Swift's "On the Irish Problem." It'll kind of give you an idea how satire works.

Bush believes that everyone who hates freedom hates America.


And, more worryingly, that anyone who doesn't like America (and American foreign policy in particular) must hate freedom. He, and many others, need to learn that America is not the only free country on Earth, nor was it the first to be free, nor always the most able promoter of freedom.

And, more worryingly, that anyone who doesn't like America (and American foreign policy in particular) must hate freedom. He, and many others, need to learn that America is not the only free country on Earth, nor was it the first to be free, nor always the most able promoter of freedom.

I think Greece was working on that one about 2500 years ago, and England was spreading freedom, especially of slaves, before America even had the Civil War.