NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20050615/ts_usatoday/voteonflagdesecrationmaybecliffhanger


As much I despise flag-desecrators (sp?), they have just as much a right to free speech as anyone else.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20050615/ts_usatoday/voteonflagdesecrationmaybecliffhanger


As much I despise flag-desecrators (sp?), they have just as much a right to free speech as anyone else.

There's nothing in the rule book that says the Constitution can't be amended, either.

I wonder, however, how the Supreme Court will view this. Will they stretch it to cover all forms of government protest involving government symbols?

We take another march to dictatorship. Or is it theocracy? Probably both.

Coming up next - Sedition Acts, part 2!

Well they do this, and I'll just have to find myself a flag and burn it. Skrew Congress. You can't amend your way out of my rights to free speech.

We take another march to dictatorship. Or is it theocracy? Probably both.

Coming up next - Sedition Acts, part 2!

Well they do this, and I'll just have to find myself a flag and burn it. Skrew Congress. You can't amend your way out of my rights to free speech.

And yet one more conspiracy theorist who sees dictatorship around the corner. Please.

The flag is this nation's highest symbol. There is a proper way to burn it but it details a proper burning ceremony as stated by the Flag guide. I am hoping that Flag Burning becomes illegal and its about damn time that Congress get it approved.

If it passes the Senate, I am confident that the States will ratify it.

We take another march to dictatorship. Or is it theocracy? Probably both.

We're no theocracy, because Bush isn't a Christian. He's a corporate whore and worshipper of the New World Order.

We're no theocracy, because Bush isn't a Christian. He's a corporate whore and worshipper of the New World Order.

I'm sorry but I think my BS detector just went off.

Are we back on this crap AGAIN?!

Just another example of drawing attention away from the most pressing issues of our time. I'm sure those issues are debateable but is flag burning somehow so prevalent in our society that this is really something we shoudl be focusing on? Is our nation about to fall apart at the seams over this? If so many people are burning flags in our country maybe we should take a look at why it is happening instead.

So moronic IMO.

Corneliu: The point of the First Amendment is that people have the right to say what they please and express themselves how they please regardless of how much you disagree with it or how disrespectful it seems, so long as no one's rights are being infringed. Someone burning a flag falls under the first amendment quite squarely.

If you want to circumvent something as much of a cornerstone to the US legal system as the first amendment just to dispose of some act you see as "disrespectful," then I'm honestly quite surprised, although I probably shouldn't be. Is there any other real reason to do it? This is America. You have a right to disagree with your government and use symbolic acts to say such. Even if it's stupid and disrespetful.


Also, Sumamba: You get +5 Correctitude points for that post.

In truth, I think many protesters who burn flags have more respect for what it stands for than those who are trying to "protect" it. A person who burns the flag most likely feels that the government has soiled it by not living up to the ideals of this nation. Thus, symbolically, the flag is dirty and is supposed to be burned.

On the other hand, our nation's leaders have no problem breaking the flag code - wearing flags on clothing, putting it on stickers, using it in advertisements, etc.

Corneliu: The point of the First Amendment is that people have the right to say what they please and express themselves how they please regardless of how much you disagree with it or how disrespectful it seems, so long as no one's rights are being infringed. Someone burning a flag falls under the first amendment quite squarely.

That's fine. However, I take great offense to when I see Americans burning their flag. There is a proper way to do it and to do it the way these people do is a violation of proper Flag ettique. I am glad that the US Congress is finally putting a stop to it. I don't mind if you protest! Protest all you want, I really don't care. However, if you burn that flag, I'm going to have something to say about it.

The flag is the US's highest symbol. It is a symbol that needs protecting. I'm all for this Amendment and I hope that the US Senate finally approves of it and send it to the State Legislatures for ratification.

If you want to circumvent something as much of a cornerstone to the US legal system as the first amendment just to dispose of some act you see as "disrespectful," then I'm honestly quite surprised, although I probably shouldn't be. Is there any other real reason to do it? This is America. You have a right to disagree with your government and use symbolic acts to say such. Even if it's stupid and disrespetful.

Burning the flag is not a symbolic act in my opinion. To me, its betrayal. I hate seeing our flag burn and I don't care whose doing the burning. It pisses me off when I see it burning either by fellow Americans (That really pisses me off) or by foreigners. To clarify, I don't like seeing ANYONE'S National Flag burned period.

Why is this an issue? When was the last time anyone heard of any one burning a flag for even political reasons? Not lately, so why is Congress trying to make themselves look impressive by bannnig flag burning?

On the other hand, our nation's leaders have no problem breaking the flag code - wearing flags on clothing, putting it on stickers, using it in advertisements, etc.

I have a flag pin that I wear on my shirts. I place almost directly over my heart. That is where I keep my love for my country is in my heart. I'm not desecrating it by doing that.

As for the flags on clothing etc, I know where your going with this but I blame the corporations for it and NOT our national leaders.

I'm sorry but I think my BS detector just went off.

Bush is a worshipper of the NWO. Anti-U.N. rhetoric notwithstanding, he loves the U.N. and internationalism.

Ihatevacations']Why is this an issue? When was the last time anyone heard of any one burning a flag for even political reasons? Not lately, so why is Congress trying to make themselves look impressive by bannnig flag burning?

Because the US Flag is this nation's highest symbol and it deserves the Protection.

I have a flag pin that I wear on my shirts. I place almost directly over my heart. That is where I keep my love for my country is in my heart. I'm not desecrating it by doing that.

According to the flag code, you are.

As for the flags on clothing etc, I know where your going with this but I blame the corporations for it and NOT our national leaders.

Should our national leaders not read the code themselves?

I do not see any good reason why there should be a constitutional amendment banning something, even something like flag-burning. The Constitution is supposed to protect our rights, not remove them.

You're missing the point.

Of course you can "have something to say about it." Of course you can hate it. You can feel any way you want about it - this is the beauty of the First Amendment.

However, even if you DO hate it, even if it IS disrespectful, it doesn't matter - it's freedom of expression, and no matter how much you or anyone else hates it is no reason to circumvent the Bill of Rights itself.

As far as it being a symbolic gesture - have you even asked someone who does it why they do it? If you ask, and they give you an actual meaning to the act, then yes, it is a symbolic gesture by definition. It's an act that makes a point.

Also, how is it treason to burn a symbol? It's not actually doing anything against your government. The act could mean various things, hatred of the United States itself being only one of them.

Bush is a worshipper of the NWO. Anti-U.N. rhetoric notwithstanding, he loves the U.N. and internationalism.

My BS detector just broke. Now you owe me 19.95 for a replacement!

As for Bush worshipping the NWO, highly skeptical on that. As for Bush loving the UN, why are we in Iraq doing something the UN was to chicken to do?

According to the flag code, you are.

I asked my dad about it (In the USAF and he BETTER know the flag code) and it isn't but for your peace of mind, I'll ask him again.

Should our national leaders not read the code themselves?

Why do you think they are passing this amendment?

Does this mean incinerators would get in trouble due to people throwing away flags?

I think this whole flag-burning issue.

Corneliu, as much as I respect your opinion, I think you are missing the point here. It is extremely disrespectful and distasteful to desecrate the Flag. But frankly, that does not matter. The First Amendment protects freedom of speech, regardless of what others think about. The Rights of the American people are unalienable, and should not be subject to "If"s "And"s or "But"s for the sole reason that they are disrespectful or distasteful in most people eyes. I find that suppression of Free Speech is more disrespectful and frankly disgusting than the burning of the Flag can ever even hope to acheive.

One last time: Our Rights to Free Speech are unalienable, no matter how disrespectful or distasteful they are to our country.

Why do you think they are passing this amendment?

You don't need to read the Flag Code in order to know that burning the flag is generally considered to be highly disrespectful. I haven't, for instance, and I know it.

I have to repost what I posted on the other thread.

Technically, I've fought for what the flag stands for in combat.

That said, I feel that what the flag stands for is the embodiment of ideas held forth in the Constitution.

You can't burn an idea. The flag is only a symbolic piece of cloth.

They can burn it all they like, and the ideas still stand untouched.

One of those ideas is that they have the freedom of expression.

Despite their best efforts, they still have that freedom. And I fought so that they could have that freedom.

In truth, I think many protesters who burn flags have more respect for what it stands for than those who are trying to "protect" it. A person who burns the flag most likely feels that the government has soiled it by not living up to the ideals of this nation. Thus, symbolically, the flag is dirty and is supposed to be burned.

On the other hand, our nation's leaders have no problem breaking the flag code - wearing flags on clothing, putting it on stickers, using it in advertisements, etc.Hear hear

Burning of the flag (as long as they own it) should be compleatly legal it is a form of speach and a form of protest there is no justification for the baning of free speach just because you dont like the message it sends

Corneliu, as much as I respect your opinion, I think you are missing the point here. It is extremely disrespectful and distasteful to desecrate the Flag. But frankly, that does not matter. The First Amendment protects freedom of speech, regardless of what others think about. The Rights of the American people are unalienable, and should not be subject to "If"s "And"s or "But"s for the sole reason that they are disrespectful or distasteful in most people eyes. I find that suppression of Free Speech is more disrespectful and frankly disgusting than the burning of the Flag can ever even hope to acheive.

One last time: Our Rights to Free Speech are unalienable, no matter how disrespectful or distasteful they are to our country.
Absolutly ... disagreement with what they say or how they say it does not give us the right to take away their ability to say it

And yet one more conspiracy theorist who sees dictatorship around the corner. Please.

The flag is this nation's highest symbol. There is a proper way to burn it but it details a proper burning ceremony as stated by the Flag guide. I am hoping that Flag Burning becomes illegal and its about damn time that Congress get it approved.

If it passes the Senate, I am confident that the States will ratify it.

Yes... of course not. I mean why look for signs that democracy is being chipped away? Why not just ignore each little step as nothing, until we have cameras in all our houses, no right to speech, and our politicians are appointed.

I say Please to you sir. It is vigilance of the actions of those above you that will prevent a dictatorship. When you stop caring about the little rights, you open the door to not only lose those rights, but to lose much more significant rights.

For the record, I have never burned a flag, simply because it's a dangerous, inflamatory(pun intended) and costly way of protest. I prefer letters to lawmakers, petitions and when that fails, marches in the street.

I asked my dad about it (In the USAF and he BETTER know the flag code) and it isn't but for your peace of mind, I'll ask him again.

Have you not read it yourself? It directly prohibits wearing the flag - in any way.

Now, if the flag on your pin is missing a star or a stripe or is not an entire flag, it is allowed. Interesting, no?

Why do you think they are passing this amendment?

Because they don't like one particular act. The fact that a senator wore a shirt with a flag on it (almost exactly like the shirt a protestor was arrested for wearing during a Vietnam War protest, nonetheless) in a government parade is ample proof that they either don't care about the existing flag code, or have never even bothered to look at it.

I don't see anyone trying to pass an amendment that one cannot wear a flag on one's clothing, that the flag cannot be placed on stickers, etc., or that the flag cannot be used in selling something (since most politicians use the flag in their own advertisements). To them, the flag has become nothing more than a symbol to say "Look at me, I'm so patriotic. I'm more patriotic than you. See? I have a flag!" Even in DC, I saw government buildings flying multiple flags as if to say "Look, we have lots of flags! We're so patriotic!"

It's goofy. If you want to look to those who have diminished the symbolic power of the flag - look to your own government. We certainly don't need protestors to do it.

Democracy isn't being chipped away people. People need to stop seeing conspiracies around every cornoer.

Anyway....

I still hope this passes the House and Senate and gets ratified. Its about damn time too.

Have you not read it yourself? It directly prohibits wearing the flag - in any way.

In that case, the US Military is in violation of the flag code because:

1. The flag is painted on the tail of airplanes
2. Flyers wear patches of the US Flag on their flight suits
3. The Army wears flags on their uniforms too.

Now, if the flag on your pin is missing a star or a stripe or is not an entire flag, it is allowed. Interesting, no?

It has all 13 Stripes and all 50 Stars. As I said, I already asked my dad about it once before I wore my flag pin and he stated that it wasn't in violation.

I have to repost what I posted on the other thread.

Technically, I've fought for what the flag stands for in combat.

That said, I feel that what the flag stands for is the embodiment of ideas held forth in the Constitution.

You can't burn an idea. The flag is only a symbolic piece of cloth.

They can burn it all they like, and the ideas still stand untouched.

One of those ideas is that they have the freedom of expression.

Despite their best efforts, they still have that freedom. And I fought so that they could have that freedom.

Corneliu, if you believe that a flag is more imporant that the idea it represents, you should fight against flag burning.

But if you believe that the idea of freedom is more important than a flag, then you should protect the freedom of expression.

Corneliu, if you believe that a flag is more imporant that the idea it represents, you should fight against flag burning.

But if you believe that the idea of freedom is more important than a flag, then you should protect the freedom of expression.
Hear hear (yet I am sure we will be though of as "un patriotic" for sticking up for freedom rather then a symbol)

Corneliu, if you believe that a flag is more imporant that the idea it represents, you should fight against flag burning.

But if you believe that the idea of freedom is more important than a flag, then you should protect the freedom of expression.

I'm a Patriot to the US. I do NOT support the Burning of our flag or any other national flag.

It seems that Corneliu does not actually wish to attempt responding to valid points, and that he'd rather continue to give non sequiturs based off his own personal preference of what is and isn't "good" freedom of expression.

I'm a Patriot to the US. I do NOT support the Burning of our flag or any other national flag. All well and good then, don't support it. But that doesn't mean removing the right to burn it.

In that case, the US Military is in violation of the flag code because:

1. The flag is painted on the tail of airplanes
2. Flyers wear patches of the US Flag on their flight suits
3. The Army wears flags on their uniforms too.

Actually, there is an exception for patches on military and other uniforms. And, I apologize, as there is also an exception for the lapel pin.

http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/flagcode.html

(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

However, there is no exception for a Congressman's shirt - so he was definitely in clear violation.

Most politicians are in violation of this one:
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.

and this one:
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

That's fine. However, I take great offense to when I see Americans burning their flag.I do, too. However, as an expression of protest against the government, I think burning the flag must remain free of Constitutional oversight if this country is as free as we say it is. It sets a dangerous precedent when we begin to use the Constitution to take away civil liberties, and this is one such example of that happening.

I'll say it before and I'll say it again: I'll fight for your right to burn the flag, but I'll reserve my right to tell you to go to Hell if you do burn it.

I'm a Patriot to the US. I do NOT support the Burning of our flag or any other national flag.
Which is fine but personally the freedom the United States stands for is more important then the symbol

Actually, there is an exception for patches on military and other uniforms. And, I apologize, as there is also an exception for the lapel pin.

http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/flagcode.html

Apology accepted :)

However, there is no exception for a Congressman's shirt - so he was definitely in clear violation.

Yep.

Most politicians are in violation of this one:


and this one:

Yep! They are.

I'm a Patriot to the US. I do NOT support the Burning of our flag or any other national flag.

They cannot harm the ideas behind the flag - but you can, if you make flag burning illegal.

If you fail to support the ideals that the flag represents, and actively move to eliminate them, then the flag will have no meaning.

They cannot harm the ideas behind the flag - but you can, if you make flag burning illegal.

If you fail to support the ideals that the flag represents, and actively move to eliminate them, then the flag will have no meaning.

It is precisely the meeting behind that flag that flag burning should be banned.

It is precisely the meeting behind that flag that flag burning should be banned.

Elaborate. The flag, as I believe it, stands for freedom. Elaborate on how removing a freedom, no matter how distasteful, supports the meaning of the flag.

It is precisely the meeting behind that flag that flag burning should be banned.
That flag for some of us stands for freedom ... which is exactly why flag burning should be alowed
Because that is what the flag stands for

It is precisely the meeting behind that flag that flag burning should be banned.

No, they can't harm the ideals that the flag represents.

Why do you think the image of the flag raising at Iwo Jima was such a powerful image? Do you actually think it's because it was red, white, and blue, with stars and stripes?

Or was it powerful, even when ragged and shot full of holes, lashed to an improvised pole, planted in a pile of rubble, because it represented ideals that could not be destroyed by mere battle?

Why do you think the image of the flag raising at Iwo Jima was such a powerful image? Do you actually think it's because it was red, white, and blue, with stars and stripes?

Because it is a symbol of truth, liberty, Justice, and the pursuit of happiness. Comeon. That was to easy.

Or was it powerful, even when ragged and shot full of holes, lashed to an improvised pole, planted in a pile of rubble, because it represented ideals that could not be destroyed by mere battle?

I also remember that our flag was fluttering battered and torn but still flying after the Battle of Fort McHenry. It was battered but still up after 9/11 too.

I just don't want to see the flag desecrated and that is why I am for this flag burning amendment.

I just don't want to see the flag desecrated and that is why I am for this flag burning amendment.

As long as there are battles, the flag will ALWAYS be desecrated.

But it is more important to fight for the ideals behind the flag than to fight for the flag itself.

The ideals can only be destroyed by our own stupidity. Not by the burning of flags by protesters.

Corneliu, if you believe that a flag is more imporant that the idea it represents, you should fight against flag burning.

But if you believe that the idea of freedom is more important than a flag, then you should protect the freedom of expression.
I did'nt even know there was a Flag code.

Do the "Support your troops" flags stickers that people place on car violate flag code because they usually have a flag?


(k) The Flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

I think this is the protestors argument verified by the Flag code. When they believe that the flag is no longer fitting they are instructed to burn it. And so they do.

I think this is the protestors argument verified by the Flag code. When they believe that the flag is no longer fitting they are instructed to burn it. And so they do.

However, there is a proper way to do it as stated in the flag code and burning it in protest is not the proper way to do it.

However, there is a proper way to do it as stated in the flag code and burning it in protest is not the proper way to do it.

Welcome to the first signs of Authoratarian societies:

"You can speak freely, as long as it agrees with us."

If you end the freedom of protest, whether or not you agree with how it is done, then you have effectively destroyed and desecrated that which the Flag stands for. Your Flag is meaningless if you do not protect the rights which it represents.

Welcome to the first signs of Authoratarian societies:

"You can speak freely, as long as it agrees with us."

Hello? I've critized this Administration over other policies. I don't fully agree with this administration in Immigration. They are not doing enough to stop the flow of illegals. That needs to change. OOPS I just disagreed with the administration on something :rolleyes:

Because it is a symbol of truth, liberty, Justice, and the pursuit of happiness. Comeon. That was to easy.



I also remember that our flag was fluttering battered and torn but still flying after the Battle of Fort McHenry. It was battered but still up after 9/11 too.

I just don't want to see the flag desecrated and that is why I am for this flag burning amendment.
i dont want to see it desecrated eather but by restrictings peoples freedom to preserve a symbol we are making the symbol more important then freedom (which is what the flag represents)

Hello? I've critized this Administration over other policies. I don't fully agree with this administration in Immigration. They are not doing enough to stop the flow of illegals. That needs to change. OOPS I just disagreed with the administration on something :rolleyes:

Good for you; once again, you've entirely missed the point. A constitutional ban on flag burning outlaws speech because it is disapproved of by some. Just because it's unpopular speech does not mean it should be illegal.

Hello? I've critized this Administration over other policies. I don't fully agree with this administration in Immigration. They are not doing enough to stop the flow of illegals. That needs to change. OOPS I just disagreed with the administration on something :rolleyes:

...

LOOK! The point! It's going, going, GONE! Way to skirt the issue.

I was talking about Freedom of Speech here. The Freedom of Speech is unalienable. Regardless of whether a certain kind of protest is "distasteful" or "disrespectful". You seem to be holding the Symbol above the Ideal, when infact without the Ideal, the symbol is meaningless.

The fact is, when we start telling people what is a right way and a wrong way to peacefully protest, then we have effectively destroyed the most basic rights which we have been granted, and have desecrated the Flag and this Nation far more than these Flagburners ever could even hope to do.

There is a proper way to burn it but it details a proper burning ceremony as stated by the Flag guide.

no, the proper way to burn the flag is to get a whole pile of them and roast some marshmallows while having a bit of a singalong to 'baby, i'm an anarchist' by against me!

Burning the flag is not a symbolic act in my opinion. To me, its betrayal. I hate seeing our flag burn and I don't care whose doing the burning. It pisses me off when I see it burning either by fellow Americans (That really pisses me off) or by foreigners. To clarify, I don't like seeing ANYONE'S National Flag burned period.
Yes, it angers you. But why does that make it so it should be illegal? Freedom of expression is about protecting those forms of expression that people don't like, as well as what people do.

sorry folks, but burning a flag is an action, not "speech". and i don't buy the "symbolic speech" argument either. what if i were a neo-nazi and my form of symbolic speech was to kill a few jews? protected speech? nope. and why not? because we distinguish between speech and action. certainly, speech is a KIND of action, but not all action is speech.

that being said, the banning of flag desecration IS, in fact, complete nonsense, but not because it's a "free speech issue". the fact of the matter is that it's a PROPERTY RIGHTS issue. if someone has lawfully aquired a piece of property (land, a microwave, a television station, a flag, etc.) they should be free to use or dispose of that property in any way that they deem fit, providing that it does not violate the rights of others.

if you want to buy a flag and burn it, or take a dump on it, or whatever, then you're perfectly entitled to do that. what you CAN'T do is take a flag belonging to someone else, or light a flag on fire and then toss it onto your neighbors roof, burning down their house.

sorry folks, but burning a flag is an action, not "speech". and i don't buy the "symbolic speech" argument either. what if i were a neo-nazi and my form of symbolic speech was to kill a few jews? protected speech? nope. and why not? because we distinguish between speech and action. certainly, speech is a KIND of action, but not all action is speech.

No. Because killing Jews infringes on those Jews rights, specifically the right to live. A person's rights only extend as far as they do not impede another's rights. It's freedom to express your beliefs in any manner you wish so long as it does not harm another's rights. They only distinction between speech and action is in your mind. Speech is an action, and speech can be just as restricted as 'action' if it intereferes with another's rights (the ubiquitous 'fire in a crowded theatre' example).

I have to repost what I posted on the other thread.

Technically, I've fought for what the flag stands for in combat.

That said, I feel that what the flag stands for is the embodiment of ideas held forth in the Constitution.

You can't burn an idea. The flag is only a symbolic piece of cloth.

They can burn it all they like, and the ideas still stand untouched.

One of those ideas is that they have the freedom of expression.

Despite their best efforts, they still have that freedom. And I fought so that they could have that freedom.

Good Gods. I just found myself agreeing with Whispering Legs. I thought the day would never come.
we have a healthy disrespect for our union flag in the UK (commonly seen on underpants). A little more respect for English, Scottish etc national flags BUT as you so rightly say it's just a thing.
I served the Queen for 10 years. I couldn't care less if people are rude about our monarchy. I served the underlying principle and not the old goat with the crown (I'm not saying we should burn her :p )
Principles and ideas are worth fighting for and maybe dying for. Flags and an old bint with no chin and a metal hat ain't.

In truth, I think many protesters who burn flags have more respect for what it stands for than those who are trying to "protect" it. A person who burns the flag most likely feels that the government has soiled it by not living up to the ideals of this nation. Thus, symbolically, the flag is dirty and is supposed to be burned.

On the other hand, our nation's leaders have no problem breaking the flag code - wearing flags on clothing, putting it on stickers, using it in advertisements, etc.

Thank you Dem for pointing that out.

I have been ROYALLY PISSED since 9/11 over the overt abuses and misuse of the flag by the same people who claim to want to "protect" this symbol. Placing the flag on stickers. Placing the flag on clothing; using flags as clothing, printing them on paper plates and napkins...

I personally will not accept an Amendment which bars burning of the flag. It's a misuse of the Constitution, for a goal that is unamerican, and downright RETARDED.

Thank you Dem for pointing that out.

I have been ROYALLY PISSED since 9/11 over the overt abuses and misuse of the flag by the same people who claim to want to "protect" this symbol. Placing the flag on stickers. Placing the flag on clothing; using flags as clothing, printing them on paper plates and napkins...

I personally will not accept an Amendment which bars burning of the flag. It's a misuse of the Constitution, for a goal that is unamerican, and downright RETARDED.
We may disagree sometimes but I agree with most of what you said ... by restricting freedom to preserve a flag we are puting the symbol higher then the freedom it represents, thats wrong.

I fought for people rights, damnit. And I will fight to the fucking end... Corneliu and the rest of the unamerican bastards can kiss my AMERICAN ass.... At least I stand by what America fucking stands for (those damn yellow-bellied, hypocritical assholes).

Corneliu, why don't you become a REAL American.... And get your dad to be a REAL American too..... Stand up for what this country was founded upon. Not your nationalistic propaganda (fucking whimps). Neither of you have my respect...

snip
I respect a lot of what you mean but PLEASE try to step it down ... I hate for anyone to get warned for just expressing their opinion but this is VERY flamish

I fought for people rights, damnit. And I will fight to the fucking end... Corneliu and the rest of the unamerican bastards can kiss my AMERICAN ass.... At least I stand by what America fucking stands for (those damn yellow-bellied, hypocritical assholes).

DON'T EVER CALL ME UNAMERICAN AGAIN! YOU DO AND I WILL SLAM YOU SO HARD.......

Corneliu, why don't you become a REAL American.... And get your dad to be a REAL American too.....

NOW YOUR INSULTING MY FATHER!!!! Why don't you go fuck yourself. My father is serving this country and defending her from our enemies. He is as loyal to this country as you and I are. You ever call him unamerican again and you'll have more than a flame coming. Now my blood is boiling. GRRRR!!!!

Because the US Flag is this nation's highest symbol and it deserves the Protection.
You entirely miss the point, oh well

Snip
Ok flame and threat (mild) back PLEASE before both of you get into trouble (if it is not too late) lets just step back
Leave the thread if you have to

Do whatever you have to do besides continue flaming

Ok flame and threat (mild) back PLEASE before both of you get into trouble (if it is not too late) lets just step back
Leave the thread if you have to

Do whatever you have to do besides continue flaming

My apologies. I get irrate when the word unamerican gets hurled around. I especially don't like when its aimed at me or my father.

Ok flame and threat (mild) back PLEASE before both of you get into trouble (if it is not too late) lets just step back
Leave the thread if you have to

Do whatever you have to do besides continue flaming

Methinks this thread may need a fluffle?

:fluffle:

My apologies. I get irrate when the word unamerican gets hurled around. I especially don't like when its aimed at me or my father.
I understand but even when provoked the mods normaly dont like return fire ... as depub said here is a :fluffle: fo you

As well as :fluffle: for tekania

I understand but even when provoked the mods normaly dont like return fire ... as depub said here is a :fluffle: fo you

As well as :fluffle: for tekania

:fluffle: for you too UT. Thanks for calming me down otherwise, my gf would've had to do that.

[Reads through entire thread]

Nope, still don't get it.

Seriously, what is this US obsession with things like flags? It's a piece of cloth, for crying out loud. If someone wants to burn it, who /cares/? Is it going to harm the country? No. Is it going to make people around them suddenly become rabid terrorists? No. So why? It's 'disrespectful'. Oh no, we can't have anyone not show respect to the United States, can we?

Really. The country is not your ego. People disliking it, and showing that dislike (NOTE: Not hate, that's a slightly different issue), does not harm you. Leave them be.

(The above is not directed at anyone in particular, except for most of the citizens of the United States, who do not appear to have the ability to laugh at themselves)

Nobody's going take my freedom of speech or expression. As far as Im concerned its nice that its in the constitution, but even if it wasn't I'd still have that right because it isnt given to me by other people.

The day they pass a flag-burning ammendment is the day I buy every flag I can find and set them on fire on the nearest federal courthouse steps.

I get arrested? Fine. Better than sucking it up and letting the intellectual cowards run this country into the ground unopposed.

:fluffle: for you too UT. Thanks for calming me down otherwise, my gf would've had to do that.
Any time ... I get heated in religous debates myself

Any time ... I get heated in religous debates myself

And I get heated in debates like these where it is easy to be flamed and to flame someone yourself.

Anyway, thanks again UpwardThrust. I'm more calmer now. Now my gf won't get mad at me :D

And I get heated in debates like these where it is easy to be flamed and to flame someone yourself.

Anyway, thanks again UpwardThrust. I'm more calmer now. Now my gf won't get mad at me :D
No problem

Do you see where we are coming from though ... we hold the nations ideals so high that we wont let a detestable act like burning the flag make us desecrate them
By desicrating thoes ideals by changing the law we remove some of the very best ideals and making that symbol (the flag) weaker

It is a flag ... dont let burning a piece of cloth remove the ideals it stands for

No problem

Do you see where we are coming from though ... we hold the nations ideals so high that we wont let a detestable act like burning the flag make us desecrate them

Yes I do see where you are coming from. Do you see where I'm coming from though? I want to see our symbols protected. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting symbols protected be it the Seal, the Flag, and what have ya.

By desicrating thoes ideals by changing the law we remove some of the very best ideals and making that symbol (the flag) weaker

It is a flag ... dont let burning a piece of cloth remove the ideals it stands for

I'm sorry but I consider our flag more than a piece of cloth. It is more than just a piece of cloth. It is our national flag. It is the symbol of the United States. To see our greatest symbol burned....I'm sorry but I have to support this amendment.

I'm sorry but I consider our flag more than a piece of cloth. It is more than just a piece of cloth. It is our national flag. It is the symbol of the United States. To see our greatest symbol burned....I'm sorry but I have to support this amendment.

That's ok as many of us will not.

If our nation is so easily damaged by it's burning, then we don't deserve to exist.

Yes I do see where you are coming from. Do you see where I'm coming from though? I want to see our symbols protected. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting symbols protected be it the Seal, the Flag, and what have ya.



I'm sorry but I consider our flag more than a piece of cloth. It is more than just a piece of cloth. It is our national flag. It is the symbol of the United States. To see our greatest symbol burned....I'm sorry but I have to support this amendment.
Is the flag more important then what it stands for?

Is the flag more important then what it stands for?

To me, and this is my opinion, if you burn that flag in protest, then you are burning some, not all, of the ideas that our country stands for. The protest is one of our highest rights. However, burning the flag is a good way to turn people against you.

Again this is just my opinion.

Corneliu,

I think the following is what people are saying, but I'll use something a bit different to make my point.

To me, the Crucifix is a symbol of my religion. It is a symbol of my Saviour and what I believe he did for all of humanity. As such, it is very important to me. I would be *highly* offended if someone were to desecrate it, by burning or in any other way. However, that would not change what the symbol stands for. It wouldn't shake my faith in the least, because the physical crucifix truly is a symbol - and it is what is symbolized that matters.

However, I believe very strongly in the ideals of this country. I believe that freedom of thought and speech are paramount - and I believe this even within the bounds of my religion. As such, I would never advocate making it illegal for someone to burn a crucifix - in and of itself.

Obviously, if they were burning someone else's crucifix or if they did so in an unsafe manner, I would certainly expect that they would be charged with destruction of property and arson. And the same would go for the flag.

The day they pass a flag-burning ammendment is the day I buy every flag I can find and set them on fire on the nearest federal courthouse steps.

I get arrested? Fine. Better than sucking it up and letting the intellectual cowards run this country into the ground unopposed.

this gives me an idea:
"burn a flag for freedom"

we just need to get organizing and create a sort of pledge for people to sign saying that they will take part in some mass civil disobedience. i wouldn't wait for it to get all the way through the states though, then it's even harder to kill it. the time to start organizing is now, the time for action is when it passes the senate.

To me, and this is my opinion, if you burn that flag in protest, then you are burning some, not all, of the ideas that our country stands for. The protest is one of our highest rights. However, burning the flag is a good way to turn people against you.

Again this is just my opinion.
They might be tring to (not saying all are just saying might) burn some of the ideas the country stand for ... but by making it illigal you destroy thoes ideals and fredom in actuality rather then just making a statement

Corneliu,

I think the following is what people are saying, but I'll use something a bit different to make my point.

To me, the Crucifix is a symbol of my religion. It is a symbol of my Saviour and what I believe he did for all of humanity. As such, it is very important to me. I would be *highly* offended if someone were to desecrate it, by burning or in any other way. However, that would not change what the symbol stands for. It wouldn't shake my faith in the least, because the physical crucifix truly is a symbol - and it is what is symbolized that matters.

However, I believe very strongly in the ideals of this country. I believe that freedom of thought and speech are paramount - and I believe this even within the bounds of my religion. As such, I would never advocate making it illegal for someone to burn a crucifix - in and of itself.

Obviously, if they were burning someone else's crucifix or if they did so in an unsafe manner, I would certainly expect that they would be charged with destruction of property and arson. And the same would go for the flag.

There's something scary about this analogy.

You just compared a land arethat a person lives on through an accident of birth, which regularly changes its politics and other such things, or should, to an entire ideology that is designed to give a person eternal life and joy.

If this is an accurate analogy - that is, if people think that 'living in the United States' is comparable to 'being a Christian' - then I'm downright terrified. And yet, also, I begin to understand why people get so upset about flag burning, and other such things...

There's something scary about this analogy.

You just compared a land arethat a person lives on through an accident of birth, which regularly changes its politics and other such things, or should, to an entire ideology that is designed to give a person eternal life and joy.

If this is an accurate analogy - that is, if people think that 'living in the United States' is comparable to 'being a Christian' - then I'm downright terrified. And yet, also, I begin to understand why people get so upset about flag burning, and other such things...
She was using religion as an analogy to nationalism and the cross to the flag

She was in NO way trying to portray that pride for a country is directly like a religion.
Sorry if that went over your head but she just made an analogy to another ideal with a prominant simbol to maybe shed some light on things

There's something scary about this analogy.

You just compared a land arethat a person lives on through an accident of birth, which regularly changes its politics and other such things, or should, to an entire ideology that is designed to give a person eternal life and joy.

If this is an accurate analogy - that is, if people think that 'living in the United States' is comparable to 'being a Christian' - then I'm downright terrified. And yet, also, I begin to understand why people get so upset about flag burning, and other such things...

Religion is more often than not an accident of birth too.

Religion is more often than not an accident of birth too.
Very true ... most people have a tendancy to stay (at least close) to what they were raised as (not saying all but a very decent amount)

This dreaded amendment would mean (if through some ungodly means it passed); that people could be arrested for burning a US flag they purchased, in protest...

Hmm, way to stand for ideals.....

Doesn't sound very American to me to do that.

She was using religion as an analogy to nationalism and the cross to the flag

She was in NO way trying to portray that pride for a country is directly like a religion.
Sorry if that went over your head but she just made an analogy to another ideal with a prominant simbol to maybe shed some light on things

Hence the way I said 'If this is an accurate analogy...'

Hence the way I said 'If this is an accurate analogy...'

An analogy is not meant to be completely the same as that which it is being compared to. If it was, it wouldn't be an analogy.

That said, I was not comparing being a part of a nation to being a part of a religion. I was comparing two symbols. The flag, to many, including myself, symbolizes the ideals of the US government (not the government itself - which rarely, if ever, lives up to those ideals). This actually has nothing at all to do with an "accident of birth", as one who is not a US citizen could (and many do) hold those ideals dear.

This dreaded amendment would mean (if through some ungodly means it passed); that people could be arrested for burning a US flag they purchased, in protest...

Hmm, way to stand for ideals.....

Doesn't sound very American to me to do that.

Well from what I'm reading, it could very well happen. It just needs a couple of other senators for it to be approved and then off to the States it goes.

It seems to me the flag only represents something if it can be burned.

Free speech, and freedom itself, is protected by the right to protest-that's why we have free speech in the first place, to ensure the right to protest-not because the founding fathers wanted to ensure our ability to see some na-nas. This is primally demonstrated in burning the flag-in fact it could be argued that it is the most patriotic thing you can do.

A burning flag is a true symbol of the freedom of the country-that it is a representation of a country where we are free to protest, to criticize, to hope to make this a better place by being contentious, through public debate which protest is a part of.

If you where to ban the burning of the flag, then it represents nothing-or at the very least not freedom.

The flag is this nation's highest symbol. There is a proper way to burn it but it details a proper burning ceremony as stated by the Flag guide. I am hoping that Flag Burning becomes illegal and its about damn time that Congress get it approved.

If it passes the Senate, I am confident that the States will ratify it.
Still, "it's important that we venerate the national symbol of our country," said Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, the amendment's chief sponsor. "Burning, urinating, defecating on the flag - this is not speech. This is offensive conduct."
Who has a right not to be offended? If this isn't political correctness on the march I don't know what is.

Who has a right not to be offended? If this isn't political correctness on the march I don't know what is.

How is protecting the US Flag political correctness?

sorry folks, but burning a flag is an action, not "speech". and i don't buy the "symbolic speech" argument either. what if i were a neo-nazi and my form of symbolic speech was to kill a few jews?
Bad analogy. Muder is illegal anyway. For neo-nazis, the equivalent would be marching through a Jewish neighbourhood, which has in fact happened.

How is protecting the US Flag political correctness?
Like all forms of PC it places restriction on free speech rights because people are offended by it.

Like all forms of PC it places restriction on free speech rights because people are offended by it.

Last time I checked, a flag can't speak but people can use their voices to speak. How is burning a flag speech? It isn't.

How is protecting the US Flag political correctness?

You're not protecting the flag... You're defiling it, because you're defiling the ideas it stand for.... Your fake patriotism sickens me... Traitor.

Last time I checked, a flag can't speak but people can use their voices to speak. How is burning a flag speech? It isn't.
It absolutly is speach you every action conveys what you think and feel its as much "communication" as using words is

Last time I checked, a flag can't speak but people can use their voices to speak. How is burning a flag speech? It isn't.

Ok, so now writing a book isn't free speech either - it doesn't involve a voice.

Art is no longer free speech, so we can put people in jail if we don't like their art.

One cannot dance at a protest - because dance is no longer free speech, even if done to make a point.

Apparently the mute have no right to free speech.

Hmmmm.....

You're not protecting the flag... You're defiling it, because you're defiling the ideas it stand for.... Your fake patriotism sickens me... Traitor.

Tekania, why don't you shut up before I get even more madder at you?

Tekania, why don't you shut up before I get even more madder at you?

how about you try being rational and coming up with something that at least pretends to be a logical argument in favor of changing the constitution to prevent you from being offended? because frankly, you freedom haters deserve to be offended.

Who has a right not to be offended? If this isn't political correctness on the march I don't know what is.

it's worse than your average run of the mill political correctness. even the major advocates of pc-ness don't want to write bans on the word '******' or whatever into the law, let alone the constitution. it takes 'small government conservatives' (hah!) to come up with that sort of shit.

I have to repost what I posted on the other thread.

Technically, I've fought for what the flag stands for in combat.

That said, I feel that what the flag stands for is the embodiment of ideas held forth in the Constitution.

You can't burn an idea. The flag is only a symbolic piece of cloth.

They can burn it all they like, and the ideas still stand untouched.

One of those ideas is that they have the freedom of expression.

Despite their best efforts, they still have that freedom. And I fought so that they could have that freedom.

Thank you for your service -- and Amen to the sentiment you've expressed.

I'm sorry but I think my BS detector just went off.

I hate to admit it, but I agree with the "corporate whore" part..

I just don't want to see the flag desecrated and that is why I am for this flag burning amendment.

I don't want to see the flag desecrated either. I agree with you there. I must wholeheartedly disagree with your assertion that it must be illegal, though.

That's the point. Allowing flag burning is allowing freedom of expression. The protestor burning the flag is, in his or her own mind, making a statement. And harming no person in the process. How can that be illegal?

You don't seem to grasp the concept that just because you may do something does not mean that you should do it.

The day they ban flag burning should be the same day they ban children from putting American pennies (which are undeniably US Currency, and have some symbolic value) on railroad tracks to flatten them out (which defaces them beyond recognition).

you freedom haters deserve to be offended.

You can shut up too Free Soviets. MY FATHER DEFENDS FREEDOM DUMBASS!!!!

I also defend freedoms and I defend the symbols of my country so why don't you go insult someone else.

The day they ban flag burning should be the same day they ban children from putting American pennies (which are undeniably US Currency, and have some symbolic value) on railroad tracks to flatten them out (which defaces them beyond recognition).
That is illegal because it is defacing US currency (i think) but no one gives a rats ass. No one would care about this if the hosue republicans wern't making a big fuss, really when was the last time ANYONE burned a flag since the USSC allowed it as free speech?

Ihatevacations']That is illegal because it is defacing US currency (i think) but no one gives a rats ass. No one would care about this if the house republicans wern't making a big fuss, really when was the last time ANYONE burned a flag since the USSC allowed it as free speech?

My point exactly.

The day they ban flag burning should be the same day they ban children from putting American pennies (which are undeniably US Currency, and have some symbolic value) on railroad tracks to flatten them out (which defaces them beyond recognition).

That's already against the law. The only way you can do that is if you have permission from the government. Why do you think those machines that turn out those little collector coins have that on there?

I agree with Whispering Legs. Not so unsual, that, though I disagree with him from time to time as well.

Can't really say it better than that.

Burning a flag... if it's your flag... is your right as an American. Period.

Burning a flag on the top of some pole, say at County Courthouse? Well, no, that's something you cannot do.

But dammit, if I pay the money for my red-white-blue cloth, I insist, nay, DEMAND the right to dispose or make use of it in any way I deem fit! It is *mine.* An American flag, purchased at a store, is NOT in the domain of the public. It does not belong to the government. It is owned by the one who purchased it, and if the guy purchasing it wants to take it home, wrap it around his bum and burn fart-holes through each of the fifty stars, that's his right.

Frankly, if you're so against 'desecrating' the flag how come you don't support proposals to ban the sale and distributiono of flags? I mean it's somehow more respectful to be using the flag as PRODUCT sold to make PROFIT? than it is to set it on fire? No, no it isn't. But you don't care about that - you have no problems with the US flag being a commodity, you just don't want anyone to USE that commodity. Well, make up your damn mind. If you're against the burning of flags, you better start making it illegal to sell them, too. In fact you may as well make the flags themselves illegal for private citizens to own. Why?

Because unless you do that, that flag WILL be desecrated. Tough nuts.

In fact, last I checked, something being illegal doesn't stop anyone from doing it.

And if this stupid bill passes, we'll have cops on the street who, instead of finding rapists, killers and thieves, are busy stopping the terrible, terrible crime of burning cloth. More women will be raped, more people will be killed, more items will be stolen, less justice will be given, all because someone cared more for a symbol than the freedom behind the symbol. Great job. Very fucking patriotic.

That's already against the law. The only way you can do that is if you have permission from the government. Why do you think those machines that turn out those little collector coins have that on there?


The point is that no one cares what children do with the pennies. At one point in his life, my father managed to dismantle a quarter. My mother still has the thing in her jewelry box -- the eagle, the rim, and the various parts which have long since been forgotten and likely misplaced.

Once again --- NOBODY CARES!

That's already against the law. The only way you can do that is if you have permission from the government. Why do you think those machines that turn out those little collector coins have that on there?
That at least has a financial reason (the cost of the US gov to mint new money)

You can shut up too Free Soviets. MY FATHER DEFENDS FREEDOM DUMBASS!!!!

I also defend freedoms and I defend the symbols of my country so why don't you go insult someone else.

To be fair Corneliu (by the way is that name french or just made up?), Freedom is burn a flag would be a type of freedom.

So isn't it weird to defend and undefend freedom?

I also defend freedoms and I defend the symbols of my country

and when these two things conflict, you immediately take up arms against freedom. which tells me that any alleged 'defending of freedom' that you do is incidental at best.

so, are you gonna even attempt to make a reasoned argument to outlaw things that offend you but harm nobody?

To be fair Corneliu (by the way is that name french or just made up?), Freedom is burn a flag would be a type of freedom.

I decided not to add the s to it for Cornelius. It most definitely not French (*Cringes*)

As to flag burning, I don't consider flag burning a freedom. That is just me. To desecrate a symbol is most definitely not a right and one that needs to be punished. I see the flag as a symbol and I believe that all symbols need to be protected be it the Statue of Liberty (protected), Liberty Bell (protected) etc. Most if not all, of our symbols are protect by law. The Flag is the highest symbol of our country and it isn't protected. It is time that our nation's highest symbol be protected. This does just that. It'll protect our nation's highest symbol.

and when these two things conflict, you immediately take up arms against freedom. which tells me that any alleged 'defending of freedom' that you do is incidental at best.

Your really beginning to tread on thin ice. I don't consider Flag Burning a freedom or a right.

so, are you gonna even attempt to make a reasoned argument to outlaw things that offend you but harm nobody?

I did in other posts. I consider it a symbol of our country and I want ALL of our symbols to be protected. The flag isn't a protected symbol and now this will protect our highest symbol. GOOD!!!

I decided not to add the s to it for Cornelius. It most definitely not French (*Cringes*)

As to flag burning, I don't consider flag burning a freedom. That is just me. To desecrate a symbol is most definitely not a right and one that needs to be punished. I see the flag as a symbol and I believe that all symbols need to be protected be it the Statue of Liberty (protected), Liberty Bell (protected) etc. Most if not all, of our symbols are protect by law. The Flag is the highest symbol of our country and it isn't protected. It is time that our nation's highest symbol be protected. This does just that. It'll protect our nation's highest symbol.
So you are making judgements on what freedom of expression is ... the liberty bell and the statue of liberty are protected BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT OWNS THEM
it is COMPLEATLY legal for me to melt down my own coppy of the liberty bell

Are you really not geting the difference between self own property and state property?

I did in other posts. I consider it a symbol of our country and I want ALL of our symbols to be protected. The flag isn't a protected symbol and now this will protect our highest symbol. GOOD!!!

oh dear, oh dear. whatever shall you do when i start burning copies of your newly amended constitution?

and i must have missed the reasoned argument. all i saw was a bunch of crying about how the desecration of symbols offended you. care to lay out the logical progression from "symbolic action x offends me" to "the banning of symbolic action x ought to be written into law"? is it really just that that which offends you should be made illegal? if so, why do you get to be the judge of what is offensive enough to be outlawed? why don't i? because i find you freedom haters quite offensive and think we should outlaw all attempts to unnecessarily restrict freedom. they are deeply offensive to me, ya know.

I did in other posts. I consider it a symbol of our country and I want ALL of our symbols to be protected. The flag isn't a protected symbol and now this will protect our highest symbol. GOOD!!!
And by doing that you desicrate the meanings behind that symbol more then burning it ever could

As to flag burning, I don't consider flag burning a freedom. That is just me.

You're right, it *is* just you. You and a bunch of other hypocrates trying to make it like what you're doing is supporting freedom, by banning a freedom.

To desecrate a symbol is most definitely not a right and one that needs to be punished.

Yes, what a good use of our police and justice system. Sorry Miss Smith, you got raped because a cop on the beat was fussing around with someone with a piece of cloth and a lighter. Sorry Joe, cops couldn't come to your home in time, there was someone with a bumper-sticker US flag and a pair of scissors, who needed to be punished.

This does just that. It'll protect our nation's highest symbol.

Actually it won't. Because if this passes I'll be burning flags like there's no tomorrow. And, I'll be getting lots of other people to do it too. I'm not the flag burning type normally, but this kind of shit sets me off. Protecting a symbol? WTF! How about protecting PEOPLE? It's better to waste resources, protecting a symbol?

Or I guess you think we have infinite resources to waste.

Or maybe you think this won't be enforced, just another waste of legislation forbidding the shooting of buffalo from the second story of a hotel.

Either way, you're off your crocker. And since you're clearly just ignoring any arguments that contradict your prejudices, I'll be ignoring the rest of this thread. Thank you, good day.

Corneliu, if you believe that a flag is more imporant that the idea it represents, you should fight against flag burning.

But if you believe that the idea of freedom is more important than a flag, then you should protect the freedom of expression.

Well stated.

hmmm.... although i find this rather upsetting, its not too surprising. and with this recent rash of pseudo-patriotism since the whole 9-11 bit, i wouldnt be surprised if it does pass.

ive never even had thoughts about burning a flag before, but im thinking if this does go through im going to start burning them myself. preferably in a group with other protesters, but if thats not available, ill do it by myself.

freedom of speech is worthless if you cant speak out against your own damn government.

I decided not to add the s to it for Cornelius. It most definitely not French (*Cringes*)

As to flag burning, I don't consider flag burning a freedom. That is just me. To desecrate a symbol is most definitely not a right and one that needs to be punished. I see the flag as a symbol and I believe that all symbols need to be protected be it the Statue of Liberty (protected), Liberty Bell (protected) etc. Most if not all, of our symbols are protect by law. The Flag is the highest symbol of our country and it isn't protected. It is time that our nation's highest symbol be protected. This does just that. It'll protect our nation's highest symbol.

The Statue of Liberty is public property. A singular object; as to is the Liberty Bell. Flags are PERSONAL FUCKING PROPERTY. Get that through your skull. You cannot dictate what people do with their own PERSONAL FUCKING PROPERTY! What are you? A Fascist? A Communist?

You're right, it *is* just you. You and a bunch of other hypocrates trying to make it like what you're doing is supporting freedom, by banning a freedom.



Yes, what a good use of our police and justice system. Sorry Miss Smith, you got raped because a cop on the beat was fussing around with someone with a piece of cloth and a lighter. Sorry Joe, cops couldn't come to your home in time, there was someone with a bumper-sticker US flag and a pair of scissors, who needed to be punished.



Actually it won't. Because if this passes I'll be burning flags like there's no tomorrow. And, I'll be getting lots of other people to do it too. I'm not the flag burning type normally, but this kind of shit sets me off. Protecting a symbol? WTF! How about protecting PEOPLE? It's better to waste resources, protecting a symbol?

Or I guess you think we have infinite resources to waste.

Or maybe you think this won't be enforced, just another waste of legislation forbidding the shooting of buffalo from the second story of a hotel.

Either way, you're off your crocker. And since you're clearly just ignoring any arguments that contradict your prejudices, I'll be ignoring the rest of this thread. Thank you, good day.

I've never burned one before. But if these nationalist idiots get it passed. I'm sure millions of Americans will be burning them like there is no tomorrow. I included. And that's just what is it NATIONALISM (AKA Fascism).

And yet one more conspiracy theorist who sees dictatorship around the corner. Please.

The flag is this nation's highest symbol. There is a proper way to burn it but it details a proper burning ceremony as stated by the Flag guide. I am hoping that Flag Burning becomes illegal and its about damn time that Congress get it approved.

If it passes the Senate, I am confident that the States will ratify it.
Burning symbols of any kind should never be illegal.
That is repressive and removing one of our rights. It is a form of speech, which, when not a danger to someone, should not be restricted.
Tell me, what other rights do you think they should remove next?

Tekania, why don't you shut up before I get even more madder at you?
Whoopee. I'm sure he's very disturbed. Like he said, you don't have the right not to be offended.
While you're at it, why don't you put me on your shit list too.

I've never burned one before. But if these nationalist idiots get it passed. I'm sure millions of Americans will be burning them like there is no tomorrow. I included. And that's just what is it NATIONALISM (AKA Fascism).

'Do you remember,' he went on, ' writing in your diary, "Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four"?'
'Yes,' said Winston.
O'Brien held up his left hand, its back towards Winston, with the thumb hidden and the four fingers extended.
'How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?
'Four.'
'And if the party says that it is not four but five -- then how many?'
'Four.'
The word ended in a gasp of pain. The needle of the dial had shot up to fifty-five. The sweat had sprung out all over Winston's body. The air tore into his lungs and issued again in deep groans which even by clenching his teeth he could not stop. O'Brien watched him, the four fingers still extended. He drew back the lever. This time the pain was only slightly eased.
'How many fingers, Winston?'
'Four.'
The needle went up to sixty.
'How many fingers, Winston?'
'Four! Four! What else can I say? Four!'
The needle must have risen again, but he did not look at it. The heavy, stern face and the four fingers filled his vision. The fingers stood up before his eyes like pillars, enormous, blurry, and seeming to vibrate, but unmistakably four.
'How many fingers, Winston?'
'Four! Stop it, stop it! How can you go on? Four! Four!'
'How many fingers, Winston?'
'Five! Five! Five!'
'No, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are four. How many fingers, please?'
'Four! five! Four! Anything you like. Only stop it, stop the pain!

If flag burning is banned all clothes with the semblance of the flag on them must be banned IMMEDIATELY and recalled and anyone caught wearing them should be jailed for defacing the flag because wearing it as clothing is obviously not its intended use nor displaying it in the proscribed manner

Ihatevacations']If flag burning is banned all clothes with the semblance of the flag on them must be banned IMMEDIATELY and recalled and anyone caught wearing them should be jailed for defacing the flag because wearing it as clothing is obviously not its intended use nor displaying it in the proscribed manner
Personally, I think seeing an attractive woman in an American flag bikini is extremely patriotic.

Believe me...I "salute".

:p

Heck, they don't have to be wearing a flag.

I can't even see the rifles in this picture...

http://www.redstararms.com/arnewrsa7.JPG

Ihatevacations']If flag burning is banned all clothes with the semblance of the flag on them must be banned IMMEDIATELY and recalled and anyone caught wearing them should be jailed for defacing the flag because wearing it as clothing is obviously not its intended use nor displaying it in the proscribed manner
While you are arguing absurdum I don’t find the flag on clothing to be especially respectful of the symbol (I am not proposing banning it) but that’s my personal opinion

Whoopee. I'm sure he's very disturbed. Like he said, you don't have the right not to be offended.
While you're at it, why don't you put me on your shit list too.

Well, I'm disturbed in the sense that it makes me feel like vomiting everytime that nationalist tries to claim being American and "defending freedom". Other than that, I could care less how much the punk get's mad at me. Truth hurts.

An American defends the rights of people (not fucking symbols).

A Patriot defends the people of his country against government overburden.

A real American will stand up for the rights of others to the end. It does not matter whether he's "offended" by people exercizing those rights. The rights themselves are WHAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

The VALUES (The FREEDOMS expressed in the bill of rights) are the CORE and CENTRAL tennet of America. No symbol can even be seen agaisnt the WISDOM AND LIGHT of our rights as Americans.

Corneliu rightly demonstrates that he/she cares more about SYMBOLOGY and NATIONALISM than the country (America, the ideal of FREEDOM AND LIBERTY expressed in our constitution) itself (which makes them no patriot; no matter what service they lend to the federal government; they do no service to THE PEOPLE; and inface seek to diservice them).

They want to protect the flag? By descrating everything this country stands for? They want to extend so far against the rights of people so as to seek government protection over other people's property, to the protection of some strands of cotton? They are protecting nothing but Nationalist Propaganda. If they have made oaths to the US Constitution, and to uphold its principles; they have failed their oath. They are traitors to the AMERICAN IDEAL. To the revolution that founded this country; and they descrate and piss upon every single person who has given their life to defend the Constitution of the United States.

I could care less if they get angry. Or how mad they get. They don't matter. They are pedantic and errant fools. Human waste. Enemies of America (the IDEAL).... Traitors to the cause of America (the IDEAL)... And dead to me.

They screem flag protection, because their nationalism (and not American Patriotism) is the only thing they have. They serve power, they serve government; they don't serve America.

Heck, they don't have to be wearing a flag.

I can't even see the rifles in this picture...

http://www.redstararms.com/arnewrsa7.JPG
Damn you, WL!

*gets a towel to mop drool off keyboard*

have respect for the flag people fight and die for this country show some respect. dont burn it to look cool like some left wing hippy thats like "dudes lets fight the man"

have respect for the flag people fight and die for this country show some respect. dont burn it to look cool like some left wing hippy thats like "dudes lets fight the man"
Of couse because all hippies are left wing ... and all left wingers like to burn flags :rolleyes:

and he never said he was doing it to look cool he was proposing it as a form of protest against the idiodic restricting of our rights

have respect for the flag people fight and die for this country show some respect. dont burn it to look cool like some left wing hippy thats like "dudes lets fight the man"Well, I wasn't going to comment. But I can't let this one go by.

Some of us are they people who fight/fought (didn't die, thank god) for this country. And still want to guarantee free speech, to include flag burning.

Like Whispering Legs (see post on page 1)


And me.

have respect for the flag people fight and die for this country show some respect. dont burn it to look cool like some left wing hippy thats like "dudes lets fight the man"

I have respect for this country. I have respect for its ideals. I also have respect for the rights of people to burn the flag of this country in protest.

I have fought FOR this country. I have saluted that same flag. And I have served under that flag.... However, to support the removal of the rights of others to protest by burnign that flag (flag which they themselves bought to burn in protest), would be a violation of my oath to uphold and protect the constitution of the united states of america. I have no plans to give disservice to my oath (as others would), by trampling over the very ideals this country was built upon...

I care about the constitution.... I care about the people... The flag is a piece of cloth. No more. It deserves no special protection; the people and the constitution does.

Last time I checked, a flag can't speak but people can use their voices to speak. How is burning a flag speech? It isn't.
Technicality! You're trying to avoid the argument!

While you are arguing absurdum I don’t find the flag on clothing to be especially respectful of the symbol (I am not proposing banning it) but that’s my personal opinion

Actually, its a violation of the US Flag Code. As is burning it without the proper flag burning ceremony too come to think of it.

Actually, its a violation of the US Flag Code. As is burning it without the proper flag burning ceremony too come to think of it.

I'm curious if you've apologized yet.

The Statue of Liberty is public property. A singular object; as to is the Liberty Bell.

And if you deface it, you go to jail. :rolleyes:

Flags are PERSONAL FUCKING PROPERTY. Get that through your skull. You cannot dictate what people do with their own PERSONAL FUCKING PROPERTY! What are you? A Fascist? A Communist?

I'm an American who is out to make sure that the symbols of our glorious country are protected. You fought to protect our freedoms by fighting overseas. My dad protects our country by doing the same. He's going back to the big sand box on Monday to continue the defense of our country. I am not a communist. I dispise them just like I dispise fascism. To insinute that I'm either one of those really makes me upset. However, I'm in a good mood so I'll forgive you but do it again and I will not be as forgiving.

I'm curious if you've apologized yet.

Apologize for what?

have respect for the flag people fight and die for this country show some respect. dont burn it to look cool like some left wing hippy thats like "dudes lets fight the man"

I agree Creitz.

Actually, its a violation of the US Flag Code. As is burning it without the proper flag burning ceremony too come to think of it.
Only if it is full flag ... I am talking any of the modifications (such as wrong number of stars or what not)... dont find it tactfull

I'm just curious, not trying to be rude or anything, but does anyone respect the flag "ettiquette" code, have it memorized, and follows it? I don't, haven't seen much of a point in treating a lifeless object a certain way.

I'm just curious, not trying to be rude or anything, but does anyone respect the flag "ettiquette" code, have it memorized, and follows it? I don't, haven't seen much of a point in treating a lifeless object a certain way.

I try to follow it as much as I can.

Looks like it started here ...Corneliu, why don't you become a REAL American.... And get your dad to be a REAL American too..... Stand up for what this country was founded upon. Not your nationalistic propaganda (fucking whimps). Neither of you have my respect...... and continued here ... DON'T EVER CALL ME UNAMERICAN AGAIN! YOU DO AND I WILL SLAM YOU SO HARD.......NOW YOUR INSULTING MY FATHER!!!! Why don't you go fuck yourself. ... looked like it had calmed down again, until ... Your fake patriotism sickens me... Traitor.Tekania, why don't you shut up before I get even more madder at you?Flags are PERSONAL FUCKING PROPERTY. Get that through your skull. You cannot dictate what people do with their own PERSONAL FUCKING PROPERTY! What are you? A Fascist? A Communist?
For instigating the flamewar and then fanning the flames several times:

Tekania, forumbanned three days, flaming

For rising to the bait and counterflaming:

Corneliu, Official Warning, flaming

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop

For refusing to recognize that you can't change someone's opinion on the internet:

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