NationStates Jolt Archive

Serious thought experiment, this one, what's called "counter-historical".

Background
As the Armistice Treaty was being signed on 11th November 1918, a young corporal named Adolf Hitler was in hospital recovering from a gas attack, blind and in a critical condition. The $64 million question is...

What if...Hitler had died then?

Would the Nazis still have come to power? Would millions of people lose their lives in a madman's quest? Would other fanatics seize the political stage, or would the Weimar Republic have become a free and equal shining example of democracy?

I want to hear your opinions. Please, however, try to back up your points with historical fact and reasoning, and flaming from fascists will not be tolerated - this is a serious thread.

Apart from that, fire away, and I hope other people start their own "What if?" threads in the future!

I think there might've still been a movement, but it would have been a communist one. Given the situtation, it would be inevitable that the German folk would opt for something other than what was presented to them. They would have moved towards a communist ideology instead of fascist.

Would have WWII been prevented? Maybe, maybe not...

Serious thought experiment, this one, what's called "counter-historical".

Background
As the Armistice Treaty was being signed on 11th November 1918, a young corporal named Adolf was in hospital recovering from a gas attack, blind and in a critical condition. The $64 million question is...

What if...Hitler had died then?

Would the s still have come to power? Would millions of people lose their lives in a madman's quest? Would other fanatics seize the political stage, or would the Weimar Republic have become a free and equal shining example of democracy?

I want to hear your opinions. Please, however, try to back up your points with historical fact and reasoning, and flaming from ts will not be tolerated - this is a serious thread.

Apart from that, fire away, and I hope other people start their own "What if?" threads in the future!

well first of all, i am a fa$cist, however i detest adolf, let me just get that out first. now, as for your question, it is an interesting question you raise. the german national socialist movement would not have come to power, for without adolf it was a nonentity. it might have made some attempt at gaining power, but unsuccessfully. I have to believe that other fanatics would have taken power, for the Weimar Republic, as you know, was extremly weak and corrupt. it was only a matter of time until it was overthrown. now, going by that assumption, that some other lunitic would have seised control, one must ask themselves, would whoever came next have been even worse? just look to ancient rome to see that for every somewhat kind emperor there were two tyrants. no, i must say that someone far worse, if that is even possible, would have come along in his wake. ww2 was inevitable. the treaty of versille was a ticking timeboomb waiting to expolde into ww2. francce and england were so obsessed with anniahilating germany that they were risking, as history has shown, starting another, worse world war.

I agree with you Kryozerkia: the working-class would have elected the KPD (until they were banned in 1933, their numbers were rising dramtically). But this would have created a hung Parliament, and if Ernst Thalmann was assassinated (left-wing politicians in particular faced many assassination attempts) Germany could have been plunged into civil disorder. What would happen next, who knows? But I'm a communist in RL, so I'd want the communists to win when imagining this!

I think there might've still been a movement, but it would have been a communist one. Given the situtation, it would be inevitable that the German folk would opt for something other than what was presented to them. They would have moved towards a communist ideology instead of t.

Would have WWII been prevented? Maybe, maybe not...

i haev to dissagree with you on that. germany, as was the rest of the world, was watching russia very closely and saw the destruction which bolshevicism was bringing, and watched as the bolshevics and menschevics fought eachother. they watched as the White vs Red Civil War was started by England and other capitalist european nations. russia was huge, had massive armies, and oil fields, the capitalist nations couldnt afford to lose that ally to communism, far removed from themselves as it was. germany had just been destroyed and saw all that was happening to the communists in russia. europe wasnt allowing a far removed europe/asia country to become communist without a fight, they certinaly werent going to allow one right in the middle of europe to turn either. germany would have been conquered even more ruthlessly and taken completly over by the other european nations even more. the german people werent going to risk that happening, so they went from the extreme Left to the extreme Right.

I don't think Nazism would have taken power without Hitler and no WW2 would have been fought in the 1940's. There would have been a war between the US and Japan, but certainly nothing to the extent of being called a World War.

On the other hand, no WW2 means no UN, no EU, no NATO, and no Warsow Pact. There would have been either a European war against the Soviets, perhaps in the 60s, or a much more unstable Europe with tension and wars between the states. Either way, Africa would be just as screwed as it is now.

Without Mein Kampf, the NSDAP would probably never have really gotten beyond a couple of dozen brownshirts in Munich.

Hitler's strengths were in oratory and organization; he could sway and lead. Without him (and some of the others such as Himmler), the organization would not have prospered, let alone risen to prominence.

But the Nazi base was predominantly middle-class, not working-class, who usually voted SPD or KPD. But I agree with you on some points: had the KPD been elected, France may well have invaded Germany to combat what they saw as the spread of communism.

I agree with you Kryozerkia: the working-class would have elected the KPD (until they were banned in 1933, their numbers were rising dramtically). But this would have created a hung Parliament, and if Ernst Thalmann was assassinated (left-wing politicians in particular faced many assassination attempts) Germany could have been plunged into civil disorder. What would happen next, who knows? But I'm a communist in RL, so I'd want the communists to win when imagining this!
The possibility of civil discord seems very likely.

I think that after many assassinations and rising tensions, the Germans might've had their own civil war. They would have likely been divided with assistance from the east, coming from Stalin, and from the west with England and France seeing a possible threat.

It's very possibly that an intervention from neighbours would've happened. The Spanish Civil War of 1936 had Italy and Germany helping the fascists and Russia helping the Communists; so a similar intervention with different players might've occurred.

This raises the next question, if the possible civil discord led to internal conflict, woudl we have seen a Jewish Holocaust?

The possibility of civil discord seems very likely.

I think that after many assassinations and rising tensions, the Germans might've had their own civil war. They would have likely been divided with assistance from the east, coming from Stalin, and from the west with England and France seeing a possible threat.

It's very possibly that an intervention from neighbours would've happened. The Spanish Civil War of 1936 had Italy and Germany helping the fascists and Russia helping the Communists; so a similar intervention with different players might've occurred.

This raises the next question, if the possible civil discord led to internal conflict, woudl we have seen a Jewish Holocaust?

Not a Holocaust in the same way as we saw in the 1940s, but there would almost certainly have been anti-Semitic violence in some areas. But many Germans were opposed to the persecution of the Jews, and the Holocaust required massive state planning, so my answer would be no: there would have been anti-Semitic crimes and probably murders, but not a Holocaust.

There would certainly have been another European war. The sheer stupidity of what we made the Germans sign would have seen to that. I mean, even the War Guilt Clause by itself would have made for another war, let alone all the money and territory (I believe) they lost.

Would it have been the same? No, of course not. It would be more likely, without a charismatic, obsessed leader, that Germany would merely have started a war simply to say 'Look, we're still a world power'. Take over a few small countries and then stop. Fortify the borders, and then sign a treaty with France and Britain.

Or maybe they would have sorted everything out diplomatically. However, I think that a war like WWII - which was really against an ideology, not against the German people - was necessary to achieve the level of European and global unity we have today. Without such a massive war, for one thing, we'd never have had the Cold War - or at least, never the Eastern-European Buffer Zone.

Eh. There's probably an Alternate History novel on the subject somewhere.

Not a Holocaust in the same way as we saw in the 1940s, but there would almost certainly have been anti-Semitic violence in some areas. But many Germans were opposed to the persecution of the Jews, and the Holocaust required massive state planning, so my answer would be no: there would have been anti-Semitic crimes and probably murders, but not a Holocaust.
That's true.

Systematic genocide to create a holocaust such as the Jewish one would've required, as you said, planning. But since the planning would have been absent, the crimes would've been random, and though wide-spread not as devastating as systematic genocide.

"Making History" by Stephen Fry: a physicist and a historian travel back in time to add a contraceptive to the Hitler family's water supply. But the Nazis are led by an even worse dictator: Hermann Glöder, I think his name is in the book. Germany develops the atomic bomb first, nukes Stalin and sets up the Greater Reich Empire spanning all Europe, and begins a Cold War with the US. It's a good book, but written for entertainment, and though it may not sound like it, it's a comedy. So 10/10 for fun, but lower for historical accuracy.

Counter-Factual and Alternative History is one of my favourite areas of history, and is consequently a great passion of mine. In the oft-debated subject you mention, I've seen a few essays and such which seem to suggest that if Hitler had died when he was gassed, or even earlier on in 1914 whilst serving with his regiment in a vicious British counter-attack near a farm, the NSDAP would not have taken power in Germany; Hitler, for all that can be said, was an electrifying personality and orater, and gathered together key figures in the party like Hess, Goering and Himmler.

It is my belief that if he died, the NSDAP wouldn't have taken power, and I doubt if the right could have taken over, as it was split, though the left was much the same. From there on the idea gets even more hazy, but with the Spartakist movement and the Kapp Putsch as evidence, as well as the numerous assassinations of left-wing politicians, I think the left may well have taken power. It seems to me that of the two sides, it had greater organisation than the other.

"Making History" by Stephen Fry: a physicist and a historian travel back in time to add a contraceptive to the Hitler family's water supply. But the Nazis are led by an even worse dictator: Hermann Glöder, I think his name is in the book. Germany develops the atomic bomb first, nukes Stalin and sets up the Greater Reich Empire spanning all Europe, and begins a Cold War with the US. It's a good book, but written for entertainment, and though it may not sound like it, it's a comedy. So 10/10 for fun, but lower for historical accuracy.
Sounds intriguing.

Any good exerpts to get us hooked? ;)

Eh. There's probably an Alternate History novel on the subject somewhere.

there is an alternat history novel about what might have happened if germany had won the war, called Fatherland. its not exactly what you were asking for, but its a start.

"What if" questions are always hard, but I can say for sure that Germany was in a bad place after WW I. It was up to its eyeballs in debt, and the reparation money being demanded by Britain and France was causing inflation at an unprecedented rate (People burned money for heat, because it took so many bills to buy wood that you could get more fire with the money itself). It was prime for someone to step in and incite the German people, restore their economy, and return their national pride. If that person hadn't been Adolf, it would have been someone else. Who it is would have been is an entirely different story.

I read and collect Alternate History Novels, and by far the best are:

SSGB by Len Deighton - Britain is invaded in 1940
The Leader by Anon (I forget the name)
Harry Turtledove's World War Series and his American Civil War Series

there is an alternat history novel about what might have happened if germany had won the war, called Fatherland. its not exactly what you were asking for, but its a start.

That was a pretty good book! The movie version (HBO?) was also well done.
It had a sequel, too, but I don't remember the name... it was also an okay read, but neither one is a "classic". It's more like "The Four Feathers" -- a good book, but not something you've *got* to read like All's Quiet on the Western Front or Candide.

I still believe that there would be a nationalistic rise from within Germany. Not Nazis, as we've come to know them, but very a nationalistic movement. Remember the effect that the Armistice of 1918 was extremely harsh and isolating. Germany was cut off from all semblance of power and identity and was plunged into enormous economic tulmult.

Now throw in the economic woes of the rest of the world. Almost all of Europe defaulted on the debts left from WWI. This caused nationalistic tendancies in many European nations - everyone wants to recover. The US was increasingly isolationist due to it's economic collapse combined with Europe's default on payments. England abandoned the gold standard, devalued the pound and creted preferential tariffs for the Commonwealth. The community of nations envisioned in the Paris peace treaties dissolved into an anarchy of jealous states seeking national advantage and national self-sufficiency.

These things were all independant of Hitler. The rise of communism to the East and Fascism in Italy along with international discord..and animosity...I think chances are that a war was bound to happen.

Great ideas so far! Most people agree that the gap would have been filled by another charismatic leader, and quite a few thing it would be from the left-wing. There's also quite a consensus that this may have caused civil unrest and probably another war in Europe: one thing we all agree on so far is that Versailles was unfair.

Anyway, great ideas, please keep them coming!

1. Germany would've had to pay reprerations until 1970 or 1980 or so.

2. It would have remained weak, since the Weimar Republic had a flawed setup (namely no 5% hurdle), such that its' democracy never really worked.

3. Some nationalistic revisionist movement would've spawned, one would hope not one based on Anti-Semitism to such an extent.

4. A new war would have started eventually. Even the French negotiators in Versaille knew that this could not end any other way.

5. Hopefully a non-Nazi Germany could have won the war and then settled on the borders of 1914. (as unlikely as it is, it probably would've been the best possible outcome for us...)

I read and collect Alternate History Novels, and by far the best are:

SSGB by Len Deighton - Britain is invaded in 1940
The Leader by Anon (I forget the name)
Harry Turtledove's World War Series and his American Civil War Series

So SSGB is a 'What if Operation Sealion had gone ahead?' book? That sounds interesting - I've got a game of Sealion (which I've never played to the end) so I might have to read that.

On Turtledove, I'll agree that they're good, at least the ones I've read. That's only been the American Empire (ie Interwar Years had the Union lost the US Civil War) trilogy so far - for some reason, I can never find the first of the Great War ones, and the Worldwar and Colonisation series' seem to be more sci-fi-ey. If I'm looking for sci-fi, there's other things I'd look for.

If it turns out there isn't a good 'Hitler dies in the Great War' book around, I may just have to add it to the list of things to write...

If it turns out there isn't a good 'Hitler dies in the Great War' book around, I may just have to add it to the list of things to write...

Now you're just stealing my idea...:)
Not that I can write.

[ ww2 was inevitable. the treaty of versille was a ticking timeboomb waiting to expolde into ww2. francce and england were so obsessed with anniahilating germany that they were risking, as history has shown, starting another, worse world war.[/QUOTE]
Hardly, as France and Britain were following appeasement rite up 2 1939 and it was onli when Hitler broke the Munich Agreement and invaded Checkslovakia, did they drop it. If WWII was inevitable it was onli because of Hitler's single mindeness 2 start a war

Now you're just stealing my idea...:)
Not that I can write.

Ah, but I can.

Sort of.

Maybe.

I can think up storylines, at least.