NationStates Jolt Archive

A while ago, i had a thread about Christianity, and found a few people who were interested in becoming Christians. Unfortunatley, that thread disappeared before i could contact them. So this is for everyone whi is interested to step forward. If you're not, there are many other threads on which to flame Christians...please don't do it here. God bless.

No thanks, I can think of much better things to do.

No thank, the Religion I already am is quite fine.

But thank you ever so much for asking and being polite about it. You're obviously the sort of Christian whom I can admire for having a strong faith but being respectful of others. Given the tone of many posts by self-styled Christians on here, its a breath of fresh air.

Good luck and God Bless.

No thanks, I can think of much better things to do.
2nded.

Why thank you. I try very hard to be civil; I hate hypocrites. God bless.

Nobody wants to be Christian really. You either don't want to be or you are, mostly. I know that I hated the idea, and then suddenly I was a Christian. :)

Nobody wants to be Christian really. You either don't want to be or you are, mostly. I know that I hated the idea, and then suddenly I was a Christian. :)
That's kinda interesting...but I know that a few months ago there were about half a dozen willing to become Christians, who were not yet. Mostly, those are the people I'm looking for; I'd really like to talk to them.

I don't want to seem like I'm being rude, but what can you as a sinner do to make someone a christian?

Yet, again, I forgot the most important part. If those who are intrigued or midly interested would post, or telegram me, to communicate there interest, I would greatly appreciate it.

I don't want to seem like I'm being rude, but what can you as a sinner do to make someone a christian?
Talk to them about it, spread the Word, pray for them...that kinda thing. I don't know very many people who became Christians by no influence but that of God Himself...generally, there's a middle man, like me.

God uses Human Beings who have an open mind and heart who are listening for his call as Instruments of his Grace. I think what this guy is doing is really good. There are people out there who have been wondering about God and thinking to themselves, now is the time to turn my life around. There is really nothing wrong with that. This person is volunteering their time to help out another human being. It's Gold Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Jesus came into this world for the wicked and the sinners not the righteous. The sinners and the wicked are the ones who need God's Grace and Mercy the most. Because we are human beings we are all sinners because we were born into the world with Original Sin which came from Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden when they listened to the Serpant and ate the forbidden fruit.

I honestly say, if you have the least bit of thought that maybe Christianity, any sect of it, could be right for you, go for it. There is nothing to fear. No one will judge you, the only one who can judge you for what you have done in your life is God. That's it.

It's rare to see someone being such a disciple on a board that's not exactly Christianity Friendly. He's doing what the Apostles did, and that was turn the other cheek and keep spreading the word and letting everyone know there is someone out there who is willing to listen and help.

God Bless!

You can't really make someone else a Christian. They have to make that choice. You can, however, encourage them, pray for them, and tell them how to go about becoming a Christian. My 2 cents. ;) By the way, I am already a Christian. Oh, and this is a very cool thread. I defiinitely agree with you, Catholics and Clerics.

God Bless.

God uses Human Beings who have an open mind and heart who are listening for his call as Instruments of his Grace.
So god preys on those who cant resist him … interesting way to think about it

Nahh. Christians seem a tad too violent for my tastes.

I might become a Buddist. ;)

God doesn't prey on anyone. He just facilitates through those who believe in him and have an open heart and mind to hear his call...

I don't want to seem like I'm being rude, but what can you as a sinner do to make someone a christian?

already a Christian, and you can't force someone to become a Christian. you can only point them in the right direction. i speak from experience, as one of my friends became a Christian two weeks ago. i gave him the message and mentored him, and that's all it took

To: Alexandria Quatriem

Since we're making offers would you like to become a Discordian Pope? :p

Shit...

I just got through the deprogramming from the LAST cult I was in......





I'm sorry, but since when does this message board allow solicitation anyway? Can I solicit clients for MY money-making enterprise here too? Hell, I only charge a flat fee for work performed, you get tangible retuirns, and I don't ask for lifetime garnishment of wages as part of the deal!



You may be well-intentioned and sincere, but I'm pretty sure that this is NOT the place for this sort of thing.

God doesn't prey on anyone. He just facilitates through those who believe in him and have an open heart and mind to hear his call...
And forgets those of us who don’t get that “clear” message?

Leperous,

You know if you dissagree with what this thread is about you don't have to read it. No one made you read it. It's an offer of help to anyone out there who is interested. There is nothing at all wrong with it. It's not a business deal and they're not looking to make money. They're doing something they feel is helpful for someone's life. That's all it is and nothing more.

Nahh. Christians seem a tad too violent for my tastes.

I might become a Buddist. ;)
if you're speaking of the crusades, I must say a few things. firstly, we're not that stupid anymore (hopefully). secondly, alot of that was politicly founded, and if you check the church history, almost everything it did for quite a while, starting a few hundred years after its birth, was corupt. we're not really violent anymore, at least the Christians i know aren't. give it a chance.

if you're speaking of the crusades, I must say a few things. firstly, we're not that stupid anymore (hopefully). secondly, alot of that was politicly founded, and if you check the church history, almost everything it did for quite a while, starting a few hundred years after its birth, was corupt. we're not really violent anymore, at least the Christians i know aren't. give it a chance.
Tell that to George W. Bush. :)

Upward,

God doesn't forget about anyone. There are lots of people out there who don't have a clear message. This world is an unclear world. You hear so many different messages everyday of what's right and wrong. You have to pray and keep an open mind, know the difference between right and wrong.

There is a reason it's called Faith. Faith is believing in something that you can't see, feel, touch or taste withouth a doubt about it. It's not easy sometime, but you have to keep in mind that God will work for you, as long as you believe in him whole heartedly.

Shit...

I just got through the deprogramming from the LAST cult I was in......





I'm sorry, but since when does this message board allow solicitation anyway? Can I solicit clients for MY money-making enterprise here too? Hell, I only charge a flat fee for work performed, you get tangible retuirns, and I don't ask for lifetime garnishment of wages as part of the deal!



You may be well-intentioned and sincere, but I'm pretty sure that this is NOT the place for this sort of thing.
how exactly do i make money from saving people's souls? i'm not solicitng, u do get tangible returns, and why would i want your wages? this isn;t a cult...it's just a relationship.

And forgets those of us who don’t get that “clear” message?
no, that's what i'm here for. but think about wut you're saying. atheists become angry when we shove it in their faces, and now you say that only helping those who ask to be helped is unfair?

if you're speaking of the crusades, I must say a few things. firstly, we're not that stupid anymore (hopefully). secondly, alot of that was politicly founded, and if you check the church history, almost everything it did for quite a while, starting a few hundred years after its birth, was corupt. we're not really violent anymore, at least the Christians i know aren't. give it a chance.

You have to head to the deep south. Too many redneck Christians like my relatives. :rolleyes:

Let's not forget the killings done in the name of god to save babies(Dr. Gunn and some family planning staff).

Then there are the scores of death threats and general hate spew made against external members of the Schiavo family.

We also had a few issues with some good Christians "fag bashing."

So you may be peaceful, but many are not. What is interesting is the peaceful ones don't actively speak out and campaign against the violent ones.

Upward,

God doesn't forget about anyone. There are lots of people out there who don't have a clear message. This world is an unclear world. You hear so many different messages everyday of what's right and wrong. You have to pray and keep an open mind, know the difference between right and wrong.

There is a reason it's called Faith. Faith is believing in something that you can't see, feel, touch or taste withouth a doubt about it. It's not easy sometime, but you have to keep in mind that God will work for you, as long as you believe in him whole heartedly.
I have done as you said … no answer … so I like you advised kept an open mind and thought “hey maybe Christianity may possibly not be correct”

And my life is defiantly much better for that decision

Tell that to George W. Bush. :)
please don't use bush as an example of a christian...i doubt if he even is, i bet it's just publicity. besides, we TRY to be like Christ, that doesn't mean we always are. discrediting Christ for the acts of "Christians" is like disliking an author because a character in his book has bad morals.

we're not really violent anymore, at least the Christians i know aren't. give it a chance.

Change "Christian" to "Islamic Fundamentalist" and we'll be having this exact same sentiment in 20 years. (Note: I have no issues with Islam, just pointing it out.)

Then again, more people have died in the name of "god" than anything else, so it's not like the peace and love rhetoric really works.

Do you get an upgraded room in heaven dependant upon the number of foolish people you convert? Is there like an exchange rate of 25 sq/ft per soul or something? Or are you just proselytizing because you've got nothing better to do?

By the way, Alex, you do know a violent Christian. His name is George W. Bush. (And, as president, appears to be the role model for budding fundies all over the world.)

You know something Upward, you're not being open minded. You're expecting an immediate answer. It doesn't happen like that. You lack faith. You're stuck in the mold of today's society of I want it, and I want it now. There is a reason Patience is a virtue.

A lot of people don't want to believe in Christianity because it means they would have to give up guilty pleasures in their lives. They don't want to deal with the guilt that they're leading a sinful life. Don't get me wrong we're all sinners, no human being is ever perfect, but a lot of people don't want to bother making a sacrifice with something in their lives. Christianity doesn't ask you to give up your friends, family or possessions. All it asks of you is to give you heart to God and let him lead the way. But you can't expect God to just answer you when you're not even listening or believing in him to begin with.

If you want to become a christian, there is only really one way to do it correctly.

That is to go down to the nearest branch of the Universal Church (the church Jesus founded, AKA the Catholic Church) and talk to a priest.

A lot of people don't want to believe in Christianity because it means they would have to give up guilty pleasures in their lives. They don't want to deal with the guilt that they're leading a sinful life. Don't get me wrong we're all sinners, no human being is ever perfect, but a lot of people don't want to bother making a sacrifice with something in their lives. Christianity doesn't ask you to give up your friends, family or possessions. All it asks of you is to give you heart to God and let him lead the way. But you can't expect God to just answer you when you're not even listening or believing in him to begin with.

Bold #1: And you know this how? What guilty pleasures do I want to hold on to? Hmmmmm?

Bold #2: What did Jesus tell the wealthy man when he wanted to join him?

You have to head to the deep south. Too many redneck Christians like my relatives. :rolleyes:

Let's not forget the killings done in the name of god to save babies(Dr. Gunn and some family planning staff).

Then there are the scores of death threats and general hate spew made against external members of the Schiavo family.

We also had a few issues with some good Christians "fag bashing."

So you may be peaceful, but many are not. What is interesting is the peaceful ones don't actively speak out and campaign against the violent ones.
if i knew of those events, i would. i live in canada, and don't watch much news....so i hardly hear about any of this stuff.

The best way to help people become Christian is to be Christian yourself. That dispels bigotry as well as help the faith.

That is to go down to the nearest branch of the Universal Church (the church Jesus founded, AKA the Catholic Church) and talk to a priest.

Just don't become an alter boy!

You know such remarks would follow........

You know something Upward, you're not being open minded. You're expecting an immediate answer. It doesn't happen like that. You lack faith.



A mind can only "open" so far before it closes itself to reason and makes the whole enterprise of thinking moot.

A genuinely open mind judges things on their reasonable merits, and decides that certain things are false.

Change "Christian" to "Islamic Fundamentalist" and we'll be having this exact same sentiment in 20 years. (Note: I have no issues with Islam, just pointing it out.)

Then again, more people have died in the name of "god" than anything else, so it's not like the peace and love rhetoric really works.

Do you get an upgraded room in heaven dependant upon the number of foolish people you convert? Is there like an exchange rate of 25 sq/ft per soul or something? Or are you just proselytizing because you've got nothing better to do?

By the way, Alex, you do know a violent Christian. His name is George W. Bush. (And, as president, appears to be the role model for budding fundies all over the world.)
i'm evangelising because i care about people...i don't want people to go to hell. i have many more entertaining things to do, but there is nothing better than this, and never will be.

If you want to become a christian, there is only really one way to do it correctly.

That is to go down to the nearest branch of the Universal Church (the church Jesus founded, AKA the Catholic Church) and talk to a priest.
Never again will I be alone in a room with a catholic priest … I’m sorry I may not be afraid of them now but it is still unpleasant

I find it really interesting that becoming a Christian is "the right dorection" and that anyone who doesn't want to be one and finds fault in it they are "stuck in the mold of today's society". It's as of Christians think that they have the only truth. This is a very Christian idea, that they have the one true religion. The Buddhists don't have that concept. Jews don't either. I find the idea disturbing and one of the leading reasons that Christianity is one of the leading causes of war. But that's just my observation (with thousands of years of evidence to back it up).

Do all Christian sects require baptism, or do some people just "revert" into Christianity?

A lot of people don't want to believe in Christianity because it means they would have to give up guilty pleasures in their lives.

I love this argument. Pleasure=Sin.

If I want to look at someone and fantasize about them, I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Lust]

If I want to eat a whole pizza to myself, I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Gluttony]

If I want to sleep in for an extra hour or two, I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Sloth]

If I want to make more money and get a better car, I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Greed]

If I want to stare at a Ferrari 575 M Maranello and then wish to be the person driving it, I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Envy]

If I want to give myself props for finishing a particularly difficult job, I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Pride]

If I want to give someone the finger because they (pick one: cut me off, said disparaging about my mother, etc), I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Anger]

And if you can tell me that you do none of these things, and are still expecting entrance to "heaven," it will prove once and for all that fundies really are alternate life forms.

I find the idea disturbing and one of the leading reasons that Christianity is one of the leading causes of war. But that's just my observation (with thousands of years of evidence to back it up).


Well that one is arguable. Sure the Crusades had a religious spin on them. However, the Kings and Lords that went saw opportunity for new land holdings.

The Inquisition in Spain was mainly about getting the Moorish holdings then "spreading the word"

Do all Christian sects require baptism, or do some people just "revert" into Christianity?

Yes.

Just don't become an alter boy!

You know such remarks would follow........ I'm becoming an altar boy!

I'm becoming an altar boy!
(not sure you caught the fact that he was making reference to priest molestation of alter boys)

I was an altar boy for a while, but in the Church of England. Were you ? that would be groovy.... I dropped the crucifix though .... and the collection plate... damn Anglicans.

i'm evangelising because i care about people...i don't want people to go to hell. i have many more entertaining things to do, but there is nothing better than this, and never will be.

Do you automatically go to hell if no one ever tried to convert you and you never knew anything about Christianity?

I was an altar boy for a while, but in the Church of England. Were you ? that would be groovy.... I dropped the crucifix though .... and the collection plate... damn Anglicans.
I was … back in the day…
Gave it up the end of 5th grade

I was a Christian, but in my youth I discovered The Truth.

The Truth, as I discovered it, is:

1. Your life is what you make of it. No invisible pink unicorn, tall glowing man with long hair and a beard, 6-armed androgynous being, 80 million year old dead aliens, or anything else is going to sort your life out for you. You have the responsibility for making your life, it will turn out according to how you craft it, and when it's done, other people will judge you on what you did.

2. Faith should be placed in one's self. If you don't have the simple faith that you are capable and willing to make good on your life, then no faith in a deity will make good on your life. Faith won't move a mountain... but with faith in yourself (and a lot of free time on your hands), YOU can move that mountain, one rock at a time.

And when I saw this simple truth, my belief in God - any god - ceased, as did any belief in devils, angels, body thetans, demons, midichlorians, or other supernatural influences. It hit me like a blinding light... I was actually RESPONSIBLE for my own life. I could use or abuse it as I saw fit. I felt the power that comes with great responsibility. I revel in the credit I get when my deeds are recognized for the good they do, and I try to learn as much as possible when my deeds do ill. I recognize that I am human, and I will make mistakes, but I don't fear eternal punishment nor expect eternal reward. My everlasting life will be that when I have expired, maybe, just maybe, I will have done something worthy of living in the memory of future generations, and hopefully as a good example to them.

Now, I almost (but not quite) feel sorry for those whose faith in one or more invisible beings allows them to at once abrogate their responsibility for their own life, fear eternal punishment, and hope for an eternal reward... for as they breathe their last breath and it becomes abundantly clear that their invisible pink unicorn will not shower them with 72 virgins or bestow any kind of supernatural reward, they will realize that their faith was misplaced, and the time and effort that went into worship could have been spent thinking critically, having fun and making the world a better place.

Just my 2 cents here:

If you feel you want to become a Cristian, go ahead, get batptised, go to church, confess, pray. That in itself never did anybody any harm.

If you don't want to become a Christian, stay where you are, watch TV or do whatever you feel like doing. That, in itself, never hurt anybody either.

If you already are Christian, don't keep throwing the bible at others, and stop focusing on the "burning in hell" bits. The part of the bible that I (me, personally, a Catholic from birth, a Christian, but still thinking) find relevant, the life of Jesus, doesn't tell you to go around and judge people and condemn them and threaten hell and brimstone!!!
Instead, it teaches you to love everybody, regardless of their faith, it teaches yout that everybody can be forgiven everything, but that the person to grant forgiveness is no other the god himself. If god decides to forgive whatever sins you may have commited, it will make no difference at all if you had a some point in your life a priest splashing water on your face.
I can't quote this literally in English, but Jesus once said "to understand everything is to forgive everything"

Jesus preached love and forgiveness, not hell and damnation. I think a very large number of "Christians" ought to reconsider their priorities! :mad:

I was a Christian, but in my youth I discovered The Truth.

The Truth, as I discovered it, is:

1. Your life is what you make of it. No invisible pink unicorn, tall glowing man with long hair and a beard, 6-armed androgynous being, 80 million year old dead aliens, or anything else is going to sort your life out for you. You have the responsibility for making your life, it will turn out according to how you craft it, and when it's done, other people will judge you on what you did.

2. Faith should be placed in one's self. If you don't have the simple faith that you are capable and willing to make good on your life, then no faith in a deity will make good on your life. Faith won't move a mountain... but with faith in yourself (and a lot of free time on your hands), YOU can move that mountain, one rock at a time.

And when I saw this simple truth, my belief in God - any god - ceased, as did any belief in devils, angels, body thetans, demons, midichlorians, or other supernatural influences. It hit me like a blinding light... I was actually RESPONSIBLE for my own life. I could use or abuse it as I saw fit. I felt the power that comes with great responsibility. I revel in the credit I get when my deeds are recognized for the good they do, and I try to learn as much as possible when my deeds do ill. I recognize that I am human, and I will make mistakes, but I don't fear eternal punishment nor expect eternal reward. My everlasting life will be that when I have expired, maybe, just maybe, I will have done something worthy of living in the memory of future generations, and hopefully as a good example to them.

Now, I almost (but not quite) feel sorry for those whose faith in one or more invisible beings allows them to at once abrogate their responsibility for their own life, fear eternal punishment, and hope for an eternal reward... for as they breathe their last breath and it becomes abundantly clear that their invisible pink unicorn will not shower them with 72 virgins or bestow any kind of supernatural reward, they will realize that their faith was misplaced, and the time and effort that went into worship could have been spent thinking critically, having fun and making the world a better place.

You sound a lot like me sir or ma’am

I misread the poll and answered "mildly disgusting". I thought it said catholic.

Just my 2 cents here:

If you feel you want to become a Cristian, go ahead, get batptised, go to church, confess, pray. That in itself never did anybody any harm.

If you don't want to become a Christian, stay where you are, watch TV or do whatever you feel like doing. That, in itself, never hurt anybody either.

If you already are Christian, don't keep throwing the bible at others, and stop focusing on the "burning in hell" bits. The part of the bible that I (me, personally, a Catholic from birth, a Christian, but still thinking) find relevant, the life of Jesus, doesn't tell you to go around and judge people and condemn them and threaten hell and brimstone!!!
Instead, it teaches you to love everybody, regardless of their faith, it teaches yout that everybody can be forgiven everything, but that the person to grant forgiveness is no other the god himself. If god decides to forgive whatever sins you may have commited, it will make no difference at all if you had a some point in your life a priest splashing water on your face.
I can't quote this literally in English, but Jesus once said "to understand everything is to forgive everything"

Jesus preached love and forgiveness, not hell and damnation. I think a very large number of "Christians" ought to reconsider their priorities! :mad:

GREAT post. You're entirely right. Christians, at least most that I know, need to stop judging people, stop condemning them to hell, and stop thinking that they are superior to non-christians because they've found the light. Instead, they need to focus on worshipping God and following what Jesus taught.

GREAT post. You're entirely right. Christians, at least most that I know, need to stop judging people, stop condemning them to hell, and stop thinking that they are superior to non-christians because they've found the light. Instead, they need to focus on worshipping God and following what Jesus taught.

Thanks :D

Seriously, I call myself Christian as well, but it embarasses me no end how some people twist and turn faith, just so they can look down on others and live out their need to act the good samaritan...

(not sure you caught the fact that he was making reference to priest molestation of alter boys) I did catch the reference. :)

Fire & Brimstone™ talk annoys me greatly. It achieves nothing except to destroy the image of Christians. :mad:

Do you automatically go to hell if no one ever tried to convert you and you never knew anything about Christianity? I wouldn't think so. Firstly, it wouldn't be your own fault, and punishment for things which aren't your own fault is not exactly just.
Secondly: "God is love and he who lives in love lives in God and God lives in him".

Stages of my life:

Hardcore "N00k teh w0rld 4 Jesus" Christian
Still a singing/dancing/bible reading/god fearing Christian
Bible Reading Christian
Agnostic Christian
Athiest*

*Current Stage

Stages of my life:

Hardcore "N00k teh w0rld 4 Jesus" Christian
Still a singing/dancing/bible reading/god fearing Christian
Bible Reading Christian
Agnostic Christian
Athiest*

*Current Stage

That's better than the other way round...

I prefer beliefs where intelligence is one of the main tenets.

I am a Christian- sort of. I'm beginning to think that any religion which says that those who do not believe in it are damned is not a religion for me, though.

I'm not going to become Christian because it violates my feelings for tolerance. I'd feel like I was giving up my fundamental values if I endorse Christianity (or any other faith for that matter) as the "one faith", since this would mean that all other faiths are false and the work of the devil. I also hate being told that I'll go to Hell by nice people because I have a different opinion than them. It's seriously insulting the way some Christians talk about "non-Believers" as ignorant children, even though they're (the Christians) some of the best people I know. I never want to end up like that.

I'm not going to become Christian because it violates my feelings for tolerance. I'd feel like I was giving up my fundamental values if I endorse Christianity (or any other faith for that matter) as the "one faith", since this would mean that all other faiths are false and the work of the devil. I also hate being told that I'll go to Hell by nice people because I have a different opinion than them. It's seriously insulting the way some Christians talk about "non-Believers" as ignorant children, even though they're some of the best people I know. I never want to end up like that.

Well, first off, believing in Christianity doesn't automatically mean that all other religions are wrong.
I believe Chritianity is the right faith for me, but that's just me personally, because I'm impressed with Jesus' teachings (I don't regard him as a deity, though, so in that field I collide with many other Christians). Other people feel more at home with Buddhism, or Islam... I think it doens't really matter what faith you have. It can be important to have faith, though.

Then again, if you meet ardent followers of any religion, they're bound to tell you that their faith is the right one. Don't take it personally, they seriously believe they are donig you a favour. I normally try to avoid them, as they will react annoyed and aggressive if you try to conter with reason.

I wouldn't think so. Firstly, it wouldn't be your own fault, and punishment for things which aren't your own fault is not exactly just.
Secondly: "God is love and he who lives in love lives in God and God lives in him".


Well there's the whole original sin thing, so yeah basicially if you're not a christian you're going to hell. Them's the rules, sorry folks.

No I'm not a christian, I believe in heaven and hell no more than I do the tooth fairy. Given the sad state of the world I'm inclined to believe any god that actually exists is a malign thug who enjoys the suffering of lesser beings. Like a kid at an anthill with a magnifying glass on a sunny day he takes pleasure in destroying life.

Sorry christians, muslims, et cetera, not going to worship that. I have read some buddhist tracts and find them interesting if vaguely incomprehensible (Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch, try reading that!). The fire and brimstone talk is exactly why Christianity is failing, why all religion will.

Well, first off, believing in Christianity doesn't automatically mean that all other religions are wrong.
I believe Chritianity is the right faith for me, but that's just me personally, because I'm impressed with Jesus' teachings (I don't regard him as a deity, though, so in that field I collide with many other Christians). Other people feel more at home with Buddhism, or Islam... I think it doens't really matter what faith you have. It can be important to have faith, though.

Then again, if you meet ardent followers of any religion, they're bound to tell you that their faith is the right one. Don't take it personally, they seriously believe they are donig you a favour. I normally try to avoid them, as they will react annoyed and aggressive if you try to conter with reason.
I certainly consider myself more Christian than anything else, but I was rather shocked to discover how good people can do something I consider fundamentally evil. I can't actively pursue Christianity with that in mind... I suppose it works for some people but not for me.

I wouldn't think so. Firstly, it wouldn't be your own fault, and punishment for things which aren't your own fault is not exactly just.
Secondly: "God is love and he who lives in love lives in God and God lives in him".
What about people like me who just CANT make the leap of faith? (you can force yourself to go through the motions but you cant force your true belief)

I am a Christian- sort of. I'm beginning to think that any religion which says that those who do not believe in it are damned is not a religion for me, though.
Yeah that does not seem like a worthy test from an "all loving" god

What about people like me who just CANT make the leap of faith? (you can force yourself to go through the motions but you cant force your true belief)
Do you honestly believe in a "true belief." Isn't that like "true love," a myth?

Yeah that does not seem like a worthy test from an "all loving" god


And why should someone with no faith, one who denies God's very existence and thus refuses to accept him be treated exactly like the devout Christian?

And why should someone with no faith, one who denies God's very existence and thus refuses to accept him be treated exactly like the devout Christian?
Love thy brother, as thyself?

Because we are human beings we are all sinners because we were born into the world with Original Sin which came from Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden when they listened to the Serpant and ate the forbidden fruit.

Why is it our fault that our ancestors sinned? Are we all the same person?

Love thy brother, as thyself?


Nonono, I'm talking about on the judgement day by God...and it's neighbor ;)

Why is it our fault that our ancestors sinned? Are we all the same person?


I'm going to be the woman famous for inventing a machine that automatically answers all questions which have been answered many times.

That's better than the other way round...

Heh, yeh it is, unfortunately for me if I EVER tell my mom or dad I'm athiest, they'll take me to the nearest church and slice my throat and stomach on the alter.

Heh, yeh it is, unfortunately for me if I EVER tell my mom or dad I'm athiest, they'll take me to the nearest church and slice my throat and stomach on the alter.
Know the feelin ... fastest way for me to get disowned is to say I am no longer catholic lol

Heh, yeh it is, unfortunately for me if I EVER tell my mom or dad I'm athiest, they'll take me to the nearest church and slice my throat and stomach on the alter.


You should tell them, and discuss with them why you don't believe. They (or someone more qualified) can then study with you to explain the questions you may have and then you won't be living a lie :)

A while ago, i had a thread about Christianity, and found a few people who were interested in becoming Christians. Unfortunatley, that thread disappeared before i could contact them. So this is for everyone whi is interested to step forward. If you're not, there are many other threads on which to flame Christians...please don't do it here. God bless.
Nope. Not interested. Sorry.

I am new to all this so hi. The first thing i want to say is TRUTH IS NEVER CHOSEN IT IS DISCOVERED. Since christianity is about truth, one can not choose to be a christian. One must discover the truth.

God uses Human Beings who have an open mind and heart who are listening for his call as Instruments of his Grace. I think what this guy is doing is really good. There are people out there who have been wondering about God and thinking to themselves, now is the time to turn my life around. There is really nothing wrong with that. This person is volunteering their time to help out another human being. It's Gold Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Jesus came into this world for the wicked and the sinners not the righteous. The sinners and the wicked are the ones who need God's Grace and Mercy the most. Because we are human beings we are all sinners because we were born into the world with Original Sin which came from Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden when they listened to the Serpant and ate the forbidden fruit.

I honestly say, if you have the least bit of thought that maybe Christianity, any sect of it, could be right for you, go for it. There is nothing to fear. No one will judge you, the only one who can judge you for what you have done in your life is God. That's it.

It's rare to see someone being such a disciple on a board that's not exactly Christianity Friendly. He's doing what the Apostles did, and that was turn the other cheek and keep spreading the word and letting everyone know there is someone out there who is willing to listen and help.

God Bless!

If I believed in evil, you'd be it incarnate, seriously telling people that there are sinners to have a gall to believe you have a right to tell people what is right and wrong, its disgusting

Do you automatically go to hell if no one ever tried to convert you and you never knew anything about Christianity?
No. It's like small children and people with cognitive disabilities. While the may have heard the message, they cannot understand the message and therefore cannot make a cognizant decision. Those that have not heard the message can't make a decision on it. That's part of the reason it's taught that Jesus will not come back until every single person of the age of cognizance has heard the Word. It WOULD be unfair, in God's eyes, to condemn someone to Hell if they had the ability to understand and choose, but had never been presented with the decision.

On a side note, I find it odd that the Atheistic crew around here, after saying (on other threads) that they didn't *hate* Christians, have turned this thread into one of the most hate-filled examples of anti-Christian bigotry I have seen yet on this forum.

You say that "Christians are fine as long as they don't try to shove their religion down my throat." Fine. This thread started off with a simple question and offer for information. That's IT. No preaching. No prostelytizing. No "shoving anything down your throat."

Yet, you STILL come in trying to start a fight. You STILL come in and taunt, disparage and verbally bash the thread poster. Your assertions that you think "Christians are fine as long as they don't try to shove their religion down my throat" ring very, VERY hollow and you show yourselves for what you truly are: hypocrites and bigots.

Also, your claim of "Christians are fine as long as they don't try to shove their religion down my throat" is the EXACT same as the US military's "Don't ask, don't tell" policy. Yet, I'll bet good money that you are the same ones who would jump up and down and scream that the DADT policy is "bigoted and intolerant". I guess Christians are the ones that need to stay "in the closet" nowdays.

If that's your idea of "tolerance", you can keep it.

Nahh. Christians seem a tad too violent for my tastes.

I might become a Buddist. ;)

yay Buddhism

If I believed in evil, you'd be it incarnate, seriously telling people that there are sinners to have a gall to believe you have a right to tell people what is right and wrong, its disgusting


He isn't making personal judgements. He is reiterating the judgements of God. You know, the One who DOES have the right to tell people what is right and wrong?

No. It's like small children and people with cognitive disabilities. While the may have heard the message, they cannot understand the message and therefore cannot make a cognizant decision. Those that have not heard the message can't make a decision on it. That's part of the reason it's taught that Jesus will not come back until every single person of the age of cognizance has heard the Word. It WOULD be unfair, in God's eyes, to condemn someone to Hell if they had the ability to understand and choose, but had never been presented with the decision.


so he's going to come back, after we stop breeding and elimnate the .... special.... people?

sucks to be in that group

And why should someone with no faith, one who denies God's very existence and thus refuses to accept him be treated exactly like the devout Christian?
Because honestly I think an all loving being would be bigger then allowing a little thing like disbelief in the flawed version of the message we hear stand in the way of his love

so he's going to come back, after we stop breeding and elimnate the .... special.... people?
Stop being daft. I *thought* I made it clear that the young and cognizantly disabled were exempt from the Final Judgement.

He isn't making personal judgements. He is reiterating the judgements of God. You know, the One who DOES have the right to tell people what is right and wrong?
And by his book the only one that has the right to condemn and judge when we pass away

Because honestly I think an all loving being would be bigger then allowing a little thing like disbelief in the flawed version of the message we hear stand in the way of his love


touché

First, I have to say that the originator of this thread was very polite, and was merely seeking those that he had heard from before. Nothin' wrong there.

Second - Its an interesting point to note that, in the bible (the old testament, the basis for everything that followed) that god repeatedly refers to 'his people'. There is an acknowledgement that not all humans are his, (Hence, the other people amongst which Cain found his wife).

The commandment that says, thou shalt have no gods before me, is quite right, if you are a christian, then no other god should come before him. Looking at the time in which the bible was written, this was not metaphorical, the world was rife with them.

The jews (the original 'christians', though arguably also those that didn't recognize the Messiah when he came, except for Messianic Jews (Jews for Jesus as some folks call them) were repeatedly told to keep themselves seperate and clean from the others. They were not to go forth and spread the word (christs teachings) but to teach 'seekers' who came to them looking for god. The four cornered garment, the yamakah (Probably misspelled), and a variety of other things were all part of that 'keeping them seperate'.

God also made a reference that he would rather you be wholly against him, then luke-warm FOR him. The only true sinner is a self-proclaimed follower of judeo-christianity who acts against the word of god. The word 'Sin' doesn't apply to anyone else in the soul/religious sense.

There are those who are lost, and have no faith at all in anything. These are likely the ones that your god indicates need be saved. There are those who have found their path, and are happy in it, and they do not need the christian gods salvation, they have found their own.

Just thought I'd poke my nose in. :)

I'm going to come clean now. I usually say I'm an atheist because people ne'er take me seriously when I tell them what I actually believe. But I just realised that I don't actually care what anybody here thinks as I don't know them, so I'll go for it anyway:

Given my experiences with less-than-natural phenomenon over the years, I believe god exists. There's no other way to explain them. Those, combined with the general state of humanity over the past 1,000 years have led me to one inescapable conclusion: he's a sadistic asshole, and he's since abandoned the lot of us. He's probably off hovering around some other planet, creating an all-new batch of creatures for him to torture before running off and leaving them to die. Take whatever offence from that you want, but if I were you I'd stop bowing down to a sadistic creature who has everything but your best interests at heart.

Stop being daft. I *thought* I made it clear that the young and cognizantly disabled were exempt from the Final Judgement.
If they are exempt from the final judgement. then where are they to reside? heaven? if so that's unfair to us, hell? unfair to them.... do they become transcendant beings? if so buddhism is right....

how are they exempt and what happens to them....

edit: on a side note,would the fact that they are exempt would make the fact that not all are exempt, unjust?

Because honestly I think an all loving being would be bigger then allowing a little thing like disbelief in the flawed version of the message we hear stand in the way of his love


He is all-loving but he is also just. He sets the conditions for salvation, and it is our responsibility to fulfill them.

touché
Not trying to be ... just my honest opinion ... someone who fits the discription of a deity (rather then just a powerfull being) for me would have these traits

If I am wrong and pass on I am sure an all loving being will undersand the issues in my past and how I cant force myself to believe
If not by my morals and standards he really does not deserve to be worshiped

Not trying to be ... just my honest opinion ... someone who fits the discription of a deity (rather then just a powerfull being) for me would have these traits No, I don't think you understand… "touché" means "well done for that snappy reply/strike".

You should listen to the Holy Spirit more often. Blindly proselytizing is bad because it can turn people off.

There are some places where you should not preach.

Acts 16
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.

he's a sadistic asshole, and he's since abandoned the lot of us. He's probably off hovering around some other planet, creating an all-new batch of creatures for him to torture before running off and leaving them to die. Take whatever offence from that you want, but if I were you I'd stop bowing down to a sadistic creature who has everything but your best interests at heart.

*heh* Interesting take my friend. Though I can't entirely agree (Note: I'm not christian either). One thing I have accepted, if there is a greater being, (I believe there is), we have *NO WAY* of fathoming its means or methods. I mean, if you think about it, the bible essentially says that we're pawns in someone elses war. So I wouldn't assume he's 'abandoned' us. But perhaps they are playing by some set of rules that doesn't allow them to directly interfere.

*Wanders away singing: In the afterlife, you'll be headin' for some serious strife.. da da da da da*

Well there's the whole original sin thing, so yeah basicially if you're not a christian you're going to hell. Them's the rules, sorry folks.

That's totally wrong. You can get into heaven if you're non-christian as long as you lead a virtuous life. Of course it's harder to lead a virtuous life if you don't know the rules. It's interesting you make your assumption without being a christian yourself.

No I'm not a christian, I believe in heaven and hell no more than I do the tooth fairy.

The only reason you don't believe in the tooth fairy is cause you never got any money from her. :)

No, I don't think you understand… "touché" means "well done for that snappy reply/strike".

Pronounced Two-shay, not -Touch-ee. :)

He is all-loving but he is also just. He sets the conditions for salvation, and it is our responsibility to fulfill them.
Again a deity would understand the issues that I have with both the conditions and the presentation of them. If he exists he loves me enough to understand that

No, I don't think you understand… "touché" means "well done for that snappy reply/strike".
Lol well thanks ... I just did not want to make them think it was out of anger but rather honest opinion

Again a deity would understand the issues that I have with both the conditions and the presentation of them. If he exists he loves me enough to understand that


Perhaps, who knows the ways of God? I might be wrong, those are just merely my interpretations of His will.

Lol well thanks ... I just did not want to make them think it was out of anger but rather honest opinion

I rather enjoyed your post an agree whole heartedly. hence touché

Perhaps, who knows the ways of God? I might be wrong, those are just merely my interpretations of His will.
Deffinatly ... Just saying thoes are the minimums my morals need in order ot worship him (if I had belief) a god without thoes ideals may still be right but would still not fit with my perception of him therefore cant really worship it in good consience (if that makes ANY sense)

I rather enjoyed your post an agree whole heartedly. hence touché
:) *takes a bow* lol I was thinking "touchy" instead of what you actualy said lol thats why my reply lol

:) *takes a bow* lol I was thinking "touchy" instead of what you actualy said lol thats why my reply lol


no worries ya :)

*heh* Interesting take my friend. Though I can't entirely agree (Note: I'm not christian either). One thing I have accepted, if there is a greater being, (I believe there is), we have *NO WAY* of fathoming its means or methods. I mean, if you think about it, the bible essentially says that we're pawns in someone elses war. So I wouldn't assume he's 'abandoned' us. But perhaps they are playing by some set of rules that doesn't allow them to directly interfere.

*Wanders away singing: In the afterlife, you'll be headin' for some serious strife.. da da da da da*

The creator of the universe waging a war, and he needs to use humans as pawns to fight it? Call me old-fashioned but wouldn't it simply be easier for him to shoot lightning bolts at his foes or something? Nah. I don't buy that. No god as described by Christians, or anyone else for that matter, would allow the freaky stuff that goes on here to continue, rules or no rules.

If the will of a god could be interpreted accurately, there would only be one religion and everyone would follow it. There isn't and they don't, so it's pretty obvious that we can't. But what I'm talking about doesn't need interpretation -- just observation. Look around -- look beneath the sugar coated topping that you've learned to accept. The world we live in has all the hallmarks of a derelict building. He's gone, and he isn't coming back to clean house.

The creator of the universe waging a war, and he needs to use humans as pawns to fight it?


Isn't that a line from Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis? Ack....I have just proclaimed my geekiness :(

The creator of the universe waging a war, and he needs to use humans as pawns to fight it? Call me old-fashioned but wouldn't it simply be easier for him to shoot lightning bolts at his foes or something? Nah. I don't buy that. No god as described by Christians, or anyone else for that matter, would allow the freaky stuff that goes on here to continue, rules or no rules.

If the will of a god could be interpreted accurately, there would only be one religion and everyone would follow it. There isn't and they don't, so it's pretty obvious that we can't. But what I'm talking about doesn't need interpretation -- just observation. Look around -- look beneath the sugar coated topping that you've learned to accept. The world we live in has all the hallmarks of a derelict building. He's gone, and he isn't coming back to clean house.

god lived in my apartment? holy shi*

The creator of the universe waging a war, and he needs to use humans as pawns to fight it? Call me old-fashioned but wouldn't it simply be easier for him to shoot lightning bolts at his foes or something? Nah. I don't buy that. No god as described by Christians, or anyone else for that matter, would allow the freaky stuff that goes on here to continue, rules or no rules.



....I'll let someone else deal with this one.

Isn't that a line from Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis? Ack....I have just proclaimed my geekiness :(


lol would it confirm mine if i said im positive you're correct?

The creator of the universe waging a war, and he needs to use humans as pawns to fight it? Call me old-fashioned but wouldn't it simply be easier for him to shoot lightning bolts at his foes or something? Nah. I don't buy that. No god as described by Christians, or anyone else for that matter, would allow the freaky stuff that goes on here to continue, rules or no rules.


What Freaky stuff are you referring to? There are quite a few dieties of the ancient world that would have little to no problem with a great deal of the 'freaky stuff' you describe. Remember, not all dieties are *good*.


If the will of a god could be interpreted accurately, there would only be one religion and everyone would follow it.


From a christian point of view, this is where 'faith' comes in. From the other.. Well, lets put it this way mate, there *ISN'T* one god for everyone, there isn't one that everyone can follow. We're too individualized as humans for that.


There isn't and they don't, so it's pretty obvious that we can't. But what I'm talking about doesn't need interpretation -- just observation. Look around -- look beneath the sugar coated topping that you've learned to accept. The world we live in has all the hallmarks of a derelict building. He's gone, and he isn't coming back to clean house.

Explain? A derelict building how? (This has the potential to become an interesting debate)

I'm not sure if the NS boards are the place to try and convert people to your religion, or any religion for that matter. I find it to be in bad taste personally.

In response to the derelict building issue, when Adam sinned it opened a Pandora's box of problems which flooded into the world. Having seperated himself from the presence of God, the world was no longer a protective bubble of bliss. Hence, the suffering in this life.

I'm not sure if the NS boards are the place to try and convert people to your religion, or any religion for that matter. I find it to be in bad taste personally.



I thought genuine concern for one's welfare was good taste?

I'm not sure if the NS boards are the place to try and convert people to your religion, or any religion for that matter. I find it to be in bad taste personally.

In my case, not at all my intent, I merely enjoy a good theological debate.

For those interested in a debate of this kind, I'm more than happy to create a forum for that purpose.

Also, your claim of "Christians are fine as long as they don't try to shove their religion down my throat" is the EXACT same as the US military's "Don't ask, don't tell" policy. Yet, I'll bet good money that you are the same ones who would jump up and down and scream that the DADT policy is "bigoted and intolerant". I guess Christians are the ones that need to stay "in the closet" nowdays.

If that's your idea of "tolerance", you can keep it.
If Christians were subjected to a DADT policy similar to the one the military has, then no regular services would occur, since no congregation in churches would occur. And if the gays in the military were to behave like Christians do, we'd have a portion of them making serious attempts to convert straights to homosexuality and a larger bunch making remarks how sad it is that we are unwilling to follow the true path.
Your example is quite bad and it assumes that the "anti-christian bigots" consider you "being" Christian as cramming religion down their throats. I consider continuously being asked if I want to talk about God after saying no to be an act of cramming. "Staying in the closet" would require you to completely hide the fact that you're Christian from the rest of the world much like it was the case with Daniel.

In response to the derelict building issue, when Adam sinned it opened a Pandora's box of problems which flooded into the world. Having seperated himself from the presence of God, the world was no longer a protective bubble of bliss. Hence, the suffering in this life.

When *ADAM* sinned? Leave us not forget that initially it was Eve.

Let us further not forget that *GOD LIED* in that passage.

God - Don't eat from the tree of knowledge, you'll die.

Serpent - Don't listen to him, you'll just know good from evil.

Eve, eats apple, knows good from evil.. ??

God - Oh dear, they ate from the tree of knowledge, let us stop them before they eat from the tree of life and live forever.

'scuse me.. Scuse me? But.. Who lied?

" 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. "

" 21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.""

Do take special note of the section in bold..

I thought genuine concern for one's welfare was good taste?
Not always lol

while christianity and christians i have no problem with , there is the tyoe of christian who gives the others a bad name , the ultra conservative anti gay anti feminism ones. parts of what jesus preach have been very communistic (like the communist manthesto but wiht more thou s)

i am alright with christianity but i don't want it to interfere with goverment or education etc.

When *ADAM* sinned? Leave us not forget that initially it was Eve.

Let us further not forget that *GOD LIED* in that passage.

God - Don't eat from the tree of knowledge, you'll die.

Serpent - Don't listen to him, you'll just know good from evil.

Eve, eats apple, knows good from evil.. ??

God - Oh dear, they ate from the tree of knowledge, let us stop them before they eat from the tree of life and live forever.

'scuse me.. Scuse me? But.. Who lied?

" 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. "

" 21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.""

Do take special note of the section in bold..

not trying to defend anything here just a query..... could it have been possible that the knowledge of good and evil would have possibly given them the knowledge of death and in that knowledge brought about their eventual death? *shrugs* mebbe god did something to the fruit so that they would die eventually after eating it where as before they were immortal, but were not like god, and had no knowledge... ??
its hard to explain everything in my head im thinking about this so forgive the jerkiness of my response

not trying to defend anything here just a query..... could it have been possible that the knowledge of good and evil would have possibly given them the knowledge of death and in that knowledge brought about their eventual death? *shrugs* mebbe god did something to the fruit so that they would die eventually after eating it where as before they were immortal, but were not like god, and had no knowledge... ??
its hard to explain everything in my head im thinking about this so forgive the jerkiness of my response

I believe you may be right in a certain aspect. Being that the tree *DID* bring about knowledge of death, but I don't think it had anything to do with them being immortal before. I think they were slated to die before, but they wouldn't have *CARED*, they had no knowledge or fear of it.

Otherwise the tree of life would've been unnecessary. OOOooo yes.. One thing I forgot to put in bold.. Did you notice the plural in there? 'They have become like us'?? *US*?

Edit: Addendum - And why in the heck would he have done something to the fruit??

If they are exempt from the final judgement. then where are they to reside? heaven? if so that's unfair to us, hell? unfair to them.... do they become transcendant beings? if so buddhism is right....

how are they exempt and what happens to them....

edit: on a side note,would the fact that they are exempt would make the fact that not all are exempt, unjust?
They are exempt because they cannot make cognizant CHOICE between having a personal relationship with God and shunning Him. It would be UNFAIR for Him to send them to Hell just for existing. The whole thing is about a CHOICE. If you are presented with the choice and cannot understand it well enough to choose, then just arbitrarily sending you to Hell would be completely unfair.

So, to your last point, no. If you are presented with the Word or knowledge of the Word and you reject it, you are not exempt. You've made your choice. If you fall back on the juvenile "well, I don't LIKE my choices...I want other choices" argument...tough. That would be like taking a True or False test and whining that you "wanted a thrid choice" and refuse to take the test. You know what happens then? You still FAIL.

God is not a nanny; He is a judge. He does not coddle you; he gives you a choice to follow the law or break the law. If you break the law, you're punished.

In fact, I'd argue that God is more fair than human justice in regards to the Final Judgement. In human justice (especially here in the US), ignorance of the law means nothing. Even if you are ignorant of a law's existence, you are still fined/imprisoned for breaking it. God is sparing humanity the Final Judgement until everyone (that is capable of making an informed choice) on earth has heard the Word and has the opportunity to make their choice.

That is infinitely more fair than anything humans have ever come up with.

Does anyone besides me find it a bit insulting to be using this forum as a recruiting tool? :gundge:
It's not really recruiting... it was an offer for information. I'd have found it insulting if it demanded that we converted but otherwise I'm ok with it.

God - Don't eat from the tree of knowledge, you'll die.


And they did die. They died to God (the worst kind of death) and they began the process of aging which lead to their eventual deaths.

And they did die. They died to God (the worst kind of death) and they began the process of aging which lead to their eventual deaths.
How do you know they were immortal before they ate the apple?

Otherwise the tree of life would've been unnecessary. OOOooo yes.. One thing I forgot to put in bold.. Did you notice the plural in there? 'They have become like us'?? *US*?


The Trinity, three in one yet one. You can refer to God in the singular and plural.

And they did die. They died to God (the worst kind of death) and they began the process of aging which lead to their eventual deaths.


Hey Neo, did you read the *REST* of it?

He kicked them out not only because they broke the rule, but so they couldn't get to the tree of life. Which would make *US* like *GOD* knowing good from evil, and living forever.

And where did it say they died to god? It said NOTHING of the sort. Quit putting words in gods mouth. We got kicked out because A. We ate the fruit of knowledge and B. To keep us from the Tree of Life.

The Trinity, three in one yet one. You can refer to God in the singular and plural.

*slaps forehead*

Neo.. The Trinity didn't bloody exist at this point. Christ didn't come along until *MUCH* later, and to the Jews (the people who were following the religion at the time of the old testament, remember?) there *WAS* no trinity. Try again.

And you *MUST* be Catholic, which is another conversation all together.

How do you know they were immortal before they ate the apple?


Well, when He stated that they would surely die upon eating the apple, in my opinion that implies that they were not subject to death without eating it. Then again, He could have meant they would die in a metaphorical sense (seperation from God).

*slaps forehead*

Neo.. The Trinity didn't bloody exist at this point. Christ didn't come along until *MUCH* later, and to the Jews (the people who were following the religion at the time of the old testament, remember?) there *WAS* no trinity. Try again.

And you *MUST* be Catholic, which is another conversation all together. Well according to Catholicism at least (I don't know if the other denominations agree), the Trinity has always existed.

slaps forehead*

Neo.. The Trinity didn't bloody exist at this point. Christ didn't come along until *MUCH* later, and to the Jews (the people who were following the religion at the time of the old testament, remember?) there *WAS* no trinity. Try again.

And you *MUST* be Catholic, which is another conversation all together.


Actually, you just displayed your own lack of biblical knowledge. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are eternal. Christ was the physical incarnation of the Son.

And I'm definitely not Catholic :mad:

And I'm definitely not Catholic :mad:
You say Catholic like its a bad thing and look rather upset

Being Catholic isn't a bad thing, but it is a bad thing to be Catholic and not properly know your history.

You say Catholic like its a bad thing and look rather upset
Protestants, like myself (and Neo, I'm assuming), are not Catholics. Protestants and Catholics differ on MANY points. But, that is something for a COMPLETELY different thread.

I find it really interesting that becoming a Christian is "the right dorection" and that anyone who doesn't want to be one and finds fault in it they are "stuck in the mold of today's society". It's as of Christians think that they have the only truth. This is a very Christian idea, that they have the one true religion. The Buddhists don't have that concept. Jews don't either. I find the idea disturbing and one of the leading reasons that Christianity is one of the leading causes of war. But that's just my observation (with thousands of years of evidence to back it up).

AMEN!

If you say there is a God . . .
. . . you are fooling yourself that you know how the universe works.
If you say there is NO God . . .
. . . you are fooling yourself that you know how the universe works.
--Jim D'Elia

Actually, you just displayed your own lack of biblical knowledge. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are eternal. Christ was the physical incarnation of the Son.

Old Testament passages please? I was kind enough to provide scripture, I'd appreciate the same. (Multiple versions if you please, I could as well, but for the sake of brevity did not)

They are exempt because they cannot make cognizant CHOICE between having a personal relationship with God and shunning Him. It would be UNFAIR for Him to send them to Hell just for existing. The whole thing is about a CHOICE. If you are presented with the choice and cannot understand it well enough to choose, then just arbitrarily sending you to Hell would be completely unfair.

So, to your last point, no. If you are presented with the Word or knowledge of the Word and you reject it, you are not exempt. You've made your choice. If you fall back on the juvenile "well, I don't LIKE my choices...I want other choices" argument...tough. That would be like taking a True or False test and whining that you "wanted a thrid choice" and refuse to take the test. You know what happens then? You still FAIL.

God is not a nanny; He is a judge. He does not coddle you; he gives you a choice to follow the law or break the law. If you break the law, you're punished.

In fact, I'd argue that God is more fair than human justice in regards to the Final Judgement. In human justice (especially here in the US), ignorance of the law means nothing. Even if you are ignorant of a law's existence, you are still fined/imprisoned for breaking it. God is sparing humanity the Final Judgement until everyone (that is capable of making an informed choice) on earth has heard the Word and has the opportunity to make their choice.

That is infinitely more fair than anything humans have ever come up with.

what about the hammers and children who do have the ability to choose and know what they are doing? do they go with us or with the hammers and children?.. also you avoided the question quite well... WHERE DO THEY GO?
\

Well according to Catholicism at least (I don't know if the other denominations agree), the Trinity has always existed.

This may be true, but according to Catholicism Lucifer is the name of Satan (Which I believe only occured in the new testament as being his actual name), when in fact it Lucifer was an Italian Sun God.

Brigid is a Saint, instead of an ancient Celtic Goddess of Spring from which she was derived.

(I could go on) Which is why i indicated it was a completely different conversation.

Old Testament passages please? I was kind enough to provide scripture, I'd appreciate the same. (Multiple versions if you please, I could as well, but for the sake of brevity did not)


Ok, but later because I'm going to bed now (I work the graveyard shift so daytime for you is nighttime for me :D )

This may be true, but according to Catholicism Lucifer is the name of Satan (Which I believe only occured in the new testament as being his actual name), when in fact it Lucifer was an Italian Sun God.

Brigid is a Saint, instead of an ancient Celtic Goddess of Spring from which she was derived.

(I could go on) Which is why i indicated it was a completely different conversation.


We all know that Lucifer is not Satan's name, but doesn't it sound cool? :cool:

Protestants, like myself (and Neo, I'm assuming), are not Catholics. Protestants and Catholics differ on MANY points. But, that is something for a COMPLETELY different thread.
Oh I understand but the reaction was interesting when I was a RC back in the day I never saw that sort of reaction when people thought we were possibly another denomination

what about the hammers and children who do have the ability to choose and know what they are doing? do they go with us or with the hammers and children?.. also you avoided the question quite well... WHERE DO THEY GO?
\
Sheesh, you are dense. Through even the *slightest* bit of deductive reasoning (which is obviously beyond you), you can figure out that THOSE EXEMPT FROM HELL GO TO HEAVEN. :headbang:

Also, what the heck does a "hammer" have to do with any of this? I didn't know inanimate objects had souls. :confused:

Oh I understand but the reaction was interesting when I was a RC back in the day I never saw that sort of reaction when people thought we were possibly another denomination
Well, if you want to be technical: if you compare and contrast Roman Catholic doctrine with Protestant doctrine, it's not just another denomination...it's a whole different religion.

Sheesh, you are dense. Through even the *slightest* bit of deductive reasoning (which is obviously beyond you), you can figure out that THOSE EXEMPT FROM HELL GO TO HEAVEN. :headbang:

Also, what the heck does a "hammer" have to do with any of this? I didn't know inanimate objects had souls. :confused:

if you had any reasoning what so ever you couldnt have possibly missed the slang term for ...special people....

i was asking simply because i was allowing for the existance of Purgatory, which some believe exists and some do not. I didnt know if you did or not so the possibility i left open in case.

and once again

children and window lickers who have the capacity to understand their CHOICE are they too exempt?

if this is the case then why were christians anal about burying unbaptised babies and hammers in non-baptised cemetaries? at that point they did not go to heaven, so why now? and another, why would a baptised baby be different from a non baptised one? neither one knows whats going on so why the distinction?

if this is the case then why were christians anal about burying unbaptised babies and hammers in non-baptised cemetaries? at that point they did not go to heaven, so why now? and another, why would a baptised baby be different from a non baptised one? neither one knows whats going on so why the distinction?

Actually, I've never heard the term Hammers before.. Where does it come from? (I understand it means mentally handicapped folks, but what is its origin?)

Actually, I've never heard the term Hammers before.. Where does it come from? (I understand it means mentally handicapped folks, but what is its origin?)

ill save you the long semantics and just give a quick overview

in england before the church had a major hold n such (for time period) some children were believed to be deamons or possessed by deamons. the peasant cure was to beat the child with a hammer until it a) died or b) fell unconscious. this practice led to the retardation of many, and the survivors were called 'hammers' denoting how they got that way. in mainland europe and most of the rest of the world this practice wasnt common place but it happened enough for most people to have a general idea of what happened. The term caught on the mainland to encompass anyone who was mentally handicapped or with out common sense. the act of being beaten with a hammer on the forhead having driven common sense and proper behaviour out of them

if you had any reasoning what so ever you couldnt have possibly missed the slang term for ...special people....

i was asking simply because i was allowing for the existance of Purgatory, which some believe exists and some do not. I didnt know if you did or not so the possibility i left open in case.

and once again

children and window lickers who have the capacity to understand their CHOICE are they too exempt?

if this is the case then why were christians anal about burying unbaptised babies and hammers in non-baptised cemetaries? at that point they did not go to heaven, so why now? and another, why would a baptised baby be different from a non baptised one? neither one knows whats going on so why the distinction?
First, I figured you meant something derogatory/inflammatory along the lines of "retards", but I wasn't sure.

Secondly, I'm not Catholic. I don't believe in Purgatory as it is NOWHERE in the Bible.

Third, if they are old enough/advanced enough to make a congnizant decision, then no, they are not exempt.

Lastly, I wouldn't know. That's humans screwing up God's Word, as far as I can tell. It doesn't make any sense to me and I don't agree with it, so I won't even try to defend it.

The term caught on the mainland to encompass anyone who was mentally handicapped or with out common sense. the act of being beaten with a hammer on the forhead having driven common sense and proper behaviour out of them

Interesting! (History buff)

Ever wonder why hammers didn't become a holy relic? Or nails?

(Meaning, Christ was a Carpenter in the beginning)

First, I figured you meant something derogatory/inflammatory along the lines of "retards", but I wasn't sure.

Secondly, I'm not Catholic. I don't believe in Purgatory as it is NOWHERE in the Bible.

Third, if they are old enough/advanced enough to make a congnizant decision, then no, they are not exempt.

Lastly, I wouldn't know. That's humans screwing up God's Word, as far as I can tell. It doesn't make any sense to me and I don't agree with it, so I won't even try to defend it.

*nods* sorry for the confusion, but thank you for clearing that up

Interesting! (History buff)

Ever wonder why hammers didn't become a holy relic? Or nails?

(Meaning, Christ was a Carpenter in the beginning)

lol i have a lot of time on my hands

First of all I have to say to all the "Christians" posting messages here...please can we think before we speak? You have no idea what damage you do to the message of the Cross when you ramble on and on about theological issues you have never actually studied, but just have opinions on!

And for those of you slamming "Christians" well, another shame on you. You speak in circles. You condemn people for condemning others. You ask for God's love, but arent willing to accept His justice. And some of you actually hate God for the mess humans have created.

Snaps to the person who wrote that you discover Truth. I have discovered, and I am a follower of the One True Living God. Now before you all freak out and start enraged messages on "how can you say there is only one true God!!!".... let me just say this:

If I believed there were other gods and other ways to heaven...or that I could get there without a personal relationship with God, if I could get there by doing nothing, or being a child or handicapped, or living a virtuous life etc etc etc... well.... isnt that the same as believing in nothing at all? If there is a God, based on His very nature, there is only one. If there is a way to heaven, based on God's nature, there is only one way. If there isnt, well, life means nothing, you are your own god, go and screw yourself!

The thing I most object to though, is all the complaints about "Christianity" being exclusive. Well my God, the God of the Bible, sent Jesus as an atonement for my sins so that I could experience a personal relationship with God, and when I die, I can live forever in Heaven. And God did this for everyone. EVERYONE! It doesnt matter what race you were born into, it doesnt matter what you look like, how smart you are, how rich or poor you are, it doesnt matter what you have done, what you have believed in the past, or even the mistakes you will make in the future. Its the most inclusive set of beliefs I have ever heard of! You just have to make a choice. Whatever choice you make comes with a set of consequences. Welcome to life. But its up to you what consequences you choose!!!!

And Im not using this posting trying to convert people! And the original writer wasnt either! He was just giving people the oppertunity to ask genuine questions. If you dont believe and dont care, go away! You have freedom of choice! If you do believe, or are interested, keep looking and studying and growing! And dont believe everything humans say....even ones professing to be christians....even me! Go and study it for yourself!

I'll be nice and stuff, because I think "anti-Christian" is just as stupid as "anti-non-Christian" that I see a lot of. I'm not here to bash Christianity, but I'd like to say that I find it a...frightful religion. I think we all go through a phase where we question what we believe in life, and I seriously did question it all. Now, as a result, I'm an agnostic with a firm belief in tolerance and acceptance, probably largely brought on by the fact that I'm gay.

I feel that we should be allowed to believe what we wish and how we wish, granted that we aren't sacrificing human beings to praise a deity. Christianity has had its slip-ups, as all organized religions have, and I think anything more than a calm love for the one you worship is dangerous. Zealous fanatics and fundamentalists frighten me, and that's why I don't like organized religions. They create the atmosphere for fundamentalism.

Anyway, I guess I just posted here to say that not all Christians are bad people, but Christians (or the nutty ones) should take note that we all live in one world, and we need to respect and accept the beliefs of our peers. I just hope that the voice of the *true* Christians can come out soon before the fundies destroy the image of the entire religion.

They are exempt because they cannot make cognizant CHOICE between having a personal relationship with God and shunning Him. It would be UNFAIR for Him to send them to Hell just for existing. The whole thing is about a CHOICE. If you are presented with the choice and cannot understand it well enough to choose, then just arbitrarily sending you to Hell would be completely unfair.

So, to your last point, no. If you are presented with the Word or knowledge of the Word and you reject it, you are not exempt. You've made your choice. If you fall back on the juvenile "well, I don't LIKE my choices...I want other choices" argument...tough. That would be like taking a True or False test and whining that you "wanted a thrid choice" and refuse to take the test. You know what happens then? You still FAIL.

God is not a nanny; He is a judge. He does not coddle you; he gives you a choice to follow the law or break the law. If you break the law, you're punished.

In fact, I'd argue that God is more fair than human justice in regards to the Final Judgement. In human justice (especially here in the US), ignorance of the law means nothing. Even if you are ignorant of a law's existence, you are still fined/imprisoned for breaking it. God is sparing humanity the Final Judgement until everyone (that is capable of making an informed choice) on earth has heard the Word and has the opportunity to make their choice.

That is infinitely more fair than anything humans have ever come up with.

If your definition of "fair" is "forces people to believe he exists while providing little to no evidence for it, and if they don't believe, then they suffer eternal torment", then I'd hate to see your definition of "unfair."

Imagine if the President suddenly decided that you have to believe that, say, on one of the planets somewhere in the galaxy, time moves backwards. You don't have PROOF of it, and may have reason to believe it's NOT true (based on evidence of what we've seen in the universe so far), but hey, it could be. But...if you DON'T believe it (not just claim to, but believe it in your heart), then you are tortured for the rest of your life. Would that be "fair"?

And please, don't rely on "The Bible is all the proof we need." I consider myself a rational, open-minded, person - but I don't take the word of a flawed, poorly translated history book which I'm only supposed to listen to HALF of. And honestly, if the Christian God DID exist, I doubt I'd want to worship him - given some of the things he did in the Old Testament, combined with the unfair choice of "Choose to believe in me with no evidence, or burn in Hell for all eternity."

As far as I'm concerned, being immortal and all-powerful doesn't justify throwing temper tantrums that kill millions of people and banishing ANYONE to an eternity of torment.

I love this argument. Pleasure=Sin.

If I want to look at someone and fantasize about them, I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Lust]

If I want to eat a whole pizza to myself, I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Gluttony]

If I want to sleep in for an extra hour or two, I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Sloth]

If I want to make more money and get a better car, I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Greed]

If I want to stare at a Ferrari 575 M Maranello and then wish to be the person driving it, I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Envy]

If I want to give myself props for finishing a particularly difficult job, I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Pride]

If I want to give someone the finger because they (pick one: cut me off, said disparaging about my mother, etc), I don't want to be told I'm going to hell. [Anger]

And if you can tell me that you do none of these things, and are still expecting entrance to "heaven," it will prove once and for all that fundies really are alternate life forms.

It is a good thing to read up on what you are criticizing. No one here that is a Christian would say that they don't do those things. Have you ever read the Bible? Have you even ever read up on one of the core principles of Christianity? The principle is that Christ died on the cross for our sins. His blood makes us worthy again. Just like in the Old Testament the Jews had to slaughter animals and spill their blood to cover their sins. Now Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice. Please read up on what you are bashing before you bash it.

Oh yeah....

and to continue with the last rant....if you dont believe in Heaven, why do you care where children and the handicapped go when they die?

Do you think that our human brains can comprehend all of God's actions and decisions? All we can do is search His Word and interpret it and believe it.

Personally, because I believe God exists, I cant be bothered to get caught up in these issues....its enough for me to know my personal eternity is safe!!!

And if you dont believe, may I ask again, why do you care? Why do you care to post? Why do you try to shake up people who do believe? What part of you is responding with such anger over these issues? I know why it matters to me....I believe my eternal destiny is at stake, but WHY DOES IT MATTER TO YOU?!

Oh yeah....

and to continue with the last rant....if you dont believe in Heaven, why do you care where children and the handicapped go when they die?

Do you think that our human brains can comprehend all of God's actions and decisions? Just because I say I think it would be unfair for children to go to hell, doesnt mean its the reality of what happens. All we can do is search His Word and interpret it and believe it.

Personally, because I believe God exists, I cant be bothered to get caught up in these issues....its enough for me to know my personal eternity is safe!!!

And if you dont believe, may I ask again, why do you care? Why do you care to post? Why do you try to shake up people who do believe? What part of you is responding with such anger over these issues? I know why it matters to me....I believe my eternal destiny is at stake, but WHY DOES IT MATTER TO YOU?!

i care only for the spirit of debate, and to make sure people are thinking about what they are saying... i respect Tex for the fact that he gave thoughtful answers, not some memorized recital like most who claim to be christian do.

And if you dont believe, may I ask again, why do you care? Why do you care to post? Why do you try to shake up people who do believe? What part of you is responding with such anger over these issues? I know why it matters to me....I believe my eternal destiny is at stake, but WHY DOES IT MATTER TO YOU?!

Two sides of the same coin. A lot of Christians spread the word of god because they are trying to help other people see the truth! We are all sinners and must seek redemption, and they just want you to see the truth before it's too late!

Non believers are trying to enlighten you to what they view as your indulgence of a particularly irrational and illogical belief system. They want to share with you their truth!

---Remember that your truth is only the truth of your version of the truth.

First of all I have to say to all the "Christians" posting messages here...please can we think before we speak? You have no idea what damage you do to the message of the Cross when you ramble on and on about theological issues you have never actually studied, but just have opinions on!


I agree with you on this, irregardless of the fact that I'm not christian.


And for those of you slamming "Christians" well, another shame on you. You speak in circles. You condemn people for condemning others. You ask for God's love, but arent willing to accept His justice. And some of you actually hate God for the mess humans have created.


I'm not sure if you're including me in this, but for completeness, I'm not slamming Christians. Not interested in God's love, I've got the love of my own Gods thanks.. As for that last line? While it doesn't apply to me, I do see alot of it, even in my faith.


Snaps to the person who wrote that you discover Truth.


My god, did you actually just say 'Snaps'?


If I believed there were other gods and other ways to heaven...or that I could get there without a personal relationship with God, if I could get there by doing nothing, or being a child or handicapped, or living a virtuous life etc etc etc... well.... isnt that the same as believing in nothing at all?


Uhm.. No. Its believing that there are many ways to find divinity, and that each of us is a unique soul that needs to find their own way to spirituality, and developing a personal relationship with divinity.


If there is a God, based on His very nature, there is only one. If there is a way to heaven, based on God's nature, there is only one way. If there isnt, well, life means nothing, you are your own god, go and screw yourself!


This may be true, but who's to say that all of us are trying to get there. Yer Heaven sounds nice and all, but I'm not particular done here. I happen to like this little rock and this pageant called life, and fully intend on coming back and doing it all over again.


The thing I most object to though, is all the complaints about "Christianity" being exclusive. Well my God, the God of the Bible, sent Jesus as an atonement for my sins so that I could experience a personal relationship with God, and when I die, I can live forever in Heaven. And God did this for everyone.


Your god did this for everyone, but it was everyone elses decision whether or not to follow him. At no point did he claim to be the exclusive and only god (in the old testament), merely that his followers were his, and he wouldn't have them worshipping another beside him.


And Im not using this posting trying to convert people! And the original writer wasnt either! He was just giving people the oppertunity to ask genuine questions. If you dont believe and dont care, go away! You have freedom of choice! If you do believe, or are interested, keep looking and studying and growing! And dont believe everything humans say....even ones professing to be christians....even me! Go and study it for yourself!

This is interesting.. As I study and learn and grow, I move *FURTHER* from Christianity, understanding and knowing it to be a simplistic faith based on faiths that came before it. Not a single story in the bible is original, but neither does that mean its not valid.

And yes, you're quite right that we all have a choice, but rejecting your god does not mean going to his hell. Reject him and you no longer are under his jurisdiction. (Only his people are subject to his rules/laws). Even he indicated that the non-believers will left out of heaven (no indication of hell there). Its the luke-warm followers of the christian way that will face his wrath. Its saying you follow him, and then acting in ways contrary to that that truly bring his wrath.

---Remember that your truth is only the truth of your version of the truth.
Your version of the truth is not the truth. The default of truth is the objective viewpoint, not the subjective one. "Your version of the truth" is from the subjective perspective, but "the truth" is from the objective one. So "your truth" is always "your version of the truth", and that's the truth.

PS: I'm agreeing with you, so don't get angry. ;)

I hate religions. All of them.

I hate religions. All of them.
Any particular reason?

Interesting...

You are trying to save me from an eternal destination of nothing (in yours eyes its nothing- in my eyes its heaven!), to your destination of no where? Or do you think, that because I follow Christ, I wont go to your version of a good after life? So, if I were to give up my beliefs, and believe what you believe, where would that land me? But dont you believe that everyone can believe what they want to and all be fine and dandy in the after life?

Are you trying to make me smarter, or save me? Or are you trying to justify to yourself why you wont follow Christ?

I always assumed the negative dabate to Christians was because somehow our beliefs threaten you, but perhaps I am wrong. Please do enlighten me as to what you are saving me to?

Im confused by your motives.

Interesting...

You are trying to save me from an eternal destination of nothing (in yours eyes its nothing- in my eyes its heaven!), to your destination of no where? Or do you think, that because I follow Christ, I wont go to your version of a good after life? So, if I were to give up my beliefs, and believe what you believe, where would that land me? But dont you believe that everyone can believe what they want to and all be fine and dandy in the after life?

Are you trying to make me smarter, or save me? Or are you trying to justify to yourself why you wont follow Christ?

I always assumed the negative dabate to Christians was because somehow our beliefs threaten you, but perhaps I am wrong. Please do enlighten me as to what you are saving me to?



*laughs hysterically* Well mate, the first thing you need to realize, is we aren't trying to convince you of, or save you from, anything.

Its an open debate, that so far has been lively.

Something you need to take into account:

Christian faiths are of the few world faiths that encourages conversion. You won't find this in alot of other faiths.

Wicca, Buddhism, Shintoism, Tao, *JUDAISM* Let me stress that, Confuscionism, and a vast list of others do not subscribe to the idea that you convert others.

Wicca, Shinto, and Judaism are all supporters of the idea that you teach the seeker, but do not seek to convert. (Which doesn't prevent us from having lively debates when the opportunity presents) This makes alot of sense, why try to shove your religion down someones throat, when it will likely only make them ill and hate your faith?

The true seekers, those who honestly want/need/believe your faith, will come. They will come, they will learn, and they will be strong members of your faith because its what they believe in their heart of hearts.

So I don't honestly believe we are trying to convert, convince, or save you from anything. We're just talkin'.


Im confused by your motives.

Thats because they aren't YOUR motives. As noted above.

Addendum: Not the motives of your faith. Excuse.

My god, did you actually just say 'Snaps'?
oh yes....I said snaps...and you loved it.


Uhm.. No. Its believing that there are many ways to find divinity, and that each of us is a unique soul that needs to find their own way to spirituality, and developing a personal relationship with divinity.
Obviously you have the right to choose your own path. As I said, you choose your own consequences in doing so. I didnt say what they would be, because we would have different opinions on that. I just said you deal with what you choose. Bottom line.



This may be true, but who's to say that all of us are trying to get there. Yer Heaven sounds nice and all, but I'm not particular done here. I happen to like this little rock and this pageant called life, and fully intend on coming back and doing it all over again.



Your god did this for everyone, but it was everyone elses decision whether or not to follow him. At no point did he claim to be the exclusive and only god (in the old testament), merely that his followers were his, and he wouldn't have them worshipping another beside him.
I think you need to reread the scriptures. I wont argue theology...its pointless. But please, do read the text with some measure of comprehension. People created their own gods. But there is one God. (please note capitals, there is mucho significance in that. God is the name of one being, god is a thing. People created idols, false gods, these are referred to in the Bible. But there is only one God.


This is interesting.. As I study and learn and grow, I move *FURTHER* from Christianity, understanding and knowing it to be a simplistic faith based on faiths that came before it. Not a single story in the bible is original, but neither does that mean its not valid.

And yes, you're quite right that we all have a choice, but rejecting your god does not mean going to his hell. Reject him and you no longer are under his jurisdiction. (Only his people are subject to his rules/laws). Even he indicated that the non-believers will left out of heaven (no indication of hell there). Its the luke-warm followers of the christian way that will face his wrath. Its saying you follow him, and then acting in ways contrary to that that truly bring his wrath.[/QUOTE]

Life is like one of those choose your own adventure books sometimes, isnt it? In the end, you make the choices that lead to your final "end". But I think people make a pretty big mistake when they throw out the idea of an absolute.

PS: I'm agreeing with you, so don't get angry. ;)

Thx!

I wonder if there is an objective truth. It may be that the only real objective truth is that there is no one truth. And by attempting an objective verification of the truth, people become subjective to that attempt, and therefore are back left no actual truth. Even the objective truth that there are no real truths isn't necessarily true.

But the attempt was made to get beyond limits imposed by any person, place, or thing, and I believe that is of some comfort.

In the end; whenver that it, we may not ever know.

But that's okay.

*heh*

Now I didn't say I threw out the idea of an absolute.

I just think the absolute is a *HECK* of alot bigger then our puny human minds have the ability to comprehend. Which is why we have gods, to try to help us relate to that.

If we believe we have the only way to heaven, and we didnt share it, wouldnt that make us pretty selfish and evil?

In the end; whenver that it, we may not ever know.

But that's okay.

More likely, the end is the only time we WILL know.

If we believe we have the only way to heaven, and we didnt share it, wouldnt that make us pretty selfish and evil?

No, because you aren't supposed to *KEEP* it from people either.

You merely offer it up to those who ask. And you know, people are curious about religion, chances are, they're going to ask. I know I do, all the time.

I wasn't sure about you at first Sods, but you seem alright. :)

I agree with most of the fundamentals of Christianity (love thy neighbor as thyself, forgive people, etc.) but not the part about God sending people to Hell. It seems unjust that God would give eternal pain to people who don't follow His "one true path".

I've actually started a forum dedicated to Theological and Political debate. I also intend on putting some references in there.

(Things like - What the heck is the difference between all these sects of religion anyway? (Things like Baptists, Protestants, Buddhists, and all the myriad breeds of Pagan/Wiccan out there)

Y'all are welcome to come and play. :) But be civil, it's for active debate, not flaming. :) (Though I kind of expect the occasional flamewar)

http://www.ravenwillowstre.freeforumhost.net/

Anyone wantin' too. Come on in. :)

*heh*

Now I didn't say I threw out the idea of an absolute.

I just think the absolute is a *HECK* of alot bigger then our puny human minds have the ability to comprehend. Which is why we have gods, to try to help us relate to that.

Yeah...I think it's incredible all the various ideas or versions of the truth I can't imagine.

Existence and non-existence are far beyond what people are capable of fully understanding.

What we do have is the ability to put all of that aside and just care for each other and our planet right now. Because as we all know, right now is all we have.

well thanks for not thinking Im evil. I should never have gotten into this discussion, (including read it!) because it gets my back up, and it seems like a waste of time. But I just wanted to stand up for the person that started the whole deal with a simple offer. They had good motives and werent invading unbelievers space.

I dont think you can seperate a part from the whole. And I do think that its justice to live out the consequences of your decisions. We have to take some responsibility for our choices and actions.

but anyway, Im out. Ive got some actual Christian living to do. This ends my brief "stint" in the web debate on religion.

I think you need to reread the scriptures. I wont argue theology...its pointless. But please, do read the text with some measure of comprehension. People created their own gods. But there is one God. (please note capitals, there is mucho significance in that. God is the name of one being, god is a thing. People created idols, false gods, these are referred to in the Bible. But there is only one God.

Right, which is precisely why I never use god with a Capital G. Because I'm talking about all of them, not just the one that was the God of the House of Abraham (Capital in reference to Abraham's God, ultimately the god of the jews). I would also indicate that god is Jehovah (Or Yahweh).

And I do read the text with a great measure of comprehension, Religious study and debate is a hobby of mine, and it leads to a great amount of growth in my own faith through my study of others.

You really need to study the roots of your own faith good sir, Studying Judaism should be an absolute requirement in the study of any Judeo-Christian faith. Its the heart of it. And once you understand Judaism, you are inclined to go *BACKWARDS* instead of forwards, to find its roots. And Judaism has some very interesting roots. Eventually, you move forward to discover that Christianity and Judaism are two very different religions. And even trying to relate the New Testament to the Old is ludicrous at best. They really have precious little to do with each other.

But walking that road long enough to discover that for yourself is part of the fun.

Too late :eek: already signed up! :confused:

One last thing Sods, and I hope you read this.

I absolutely agree on the idea that we need to be responsible for our own actions and decisions. I hope you never got the idea I didn't agree with you there.

The core of my religion is personal responsibility. Its the first lesson you learn.

Too late :eek: already signed up! :confused:

What?

No thanks, I can think of much better things to do.
I'm with him.

You really need to study the roots of your own faith good sir, Studying Judaism should be an absolute requirement in the study of any Judeo-Christian faith. Its the heart of it. And once you understand Judaism, you are inclined to go *BACKWARDS* instead of forwards, to find its roots. And Judaism has some very interesting roots. Eventually, you move forward to discover that Christianity and Judaism are two very different religions. And even trying to relate the New Testament to the Old is ludicrous at best. They really have precious little to do with each other.


I agree totally that Christians should study Judaeism! It is in the history, culture, and beliefs of the jews that Christians can begin to understand their own religion even more.

My church makes a great study of Judaeism as we think it is integral to understanding Christ.

I do however disagree that they are separate religions. Jewish and Catholic may have a huge gulf between the two, but true Christianity is a continuation of the Jewish tradition in a different way than the Jews now practice.

Present day Jews and True Christianity are merely branches of the same Jewish tradition that forked in two different directions.

There is a great deal in common, symbolically, doctrinally, historically, etc.

In response to the derelict building issue, when Adam sinned it opened a Pandora's box of problems which flooded into the world. Having seperated himself from the presence of God, the world was no longer a protective bubble of bliss. Hence, the suffering in this life.


This brings up a fascinating point. Why did god create man to be flawed and then blame us for the flaws? If Adam did not follow god's will then god created a flawed creature. Why give us intelligence if he is going to punish us for using it?

Why does hell exist? Did god decide he would hate a certain part of the population? If he's all powerful then hell must be his own personal torture chamber. If I think that's wrong why doesn't the infalliable diety? Does that mean god approves of torture?

God cannot exist, or if he does exist he's evil. Either way worship is a waste of time.

Present day Jews and True Christianity are merely branches of the same Jewish tradition that forked in two different directions.


No dear, Judiasm and Messianic Judaism are two branches of the same Jewish Tradition that forked in two different directions.

All Christianity comes from Catholicism. :) Study yer history.


There is a great deal in common, symbolically, doctrinally, historically, etc.

And quite alot more that the Catholic church caused the Christian paths to follow to forget.

(Note about my new forum: Its BRAND NEW.. So if you go there, be sure to post a hello, and maybe we can get some good discourse started hmm? I'm especially looking for knowledgeable folks of different faiths (Different Christian, Different Jewish, Different Neo-Pagan, Different whatever) to come in and let us know what makes their path different!

http://www.ravenwillowstre.freeforumhost.net/

This brings up a fascinating point. Why did god create man to be flawed and then blame us for the flaws? If Adam did not follow god's will then god created a flawed creature. Why give us intelligence if he is going to punish us for using it?

Why does hell exist? Did god decide he would hate a certain part of the population? If he's all powerful then hell must be his own personal torture chamber. If I think that's wrong why doesn't the infalliable diety? Does that mean god approves of torture?

God cannot exist, or if he does exist he's evil. Either way worship is a waste of time.

God did not create a flawed creature. He created a man with free will. THAT is a perfect creation. A creation that only does what it is told is a Robot, not a life-form.

He does not punish us for using intelligence. He only punishes us if we use our intelligence and then act against it.

The whole Gardin of Eden is a very misunderstood situation around the world. you get wierd ideas like original sin, and others.

Adam was just told that if he ate the fruit he would die. It was not a punishment but a consequence of a decision. Just like if you choose to jump off a diving board you will get wet. God is not punishing you for jumping off the driving board by getting you wet.

God does not HATE anyone. He loves ALL His children equally. But this is a giant testing ground. Like High School. Most pass,(in varying degrees) but some fail. Some even drop out. So it is with this life.

God would love nothing more than for ALL of us to return to live with Him. But you cannot have what you do not work for and earn. So God sent Christ to help us out since NO ONE could possibly make it alone. No one is perfect and that was the requirement. So Christ was perfect for us. And He stipulated rules so that He would speak on our behalf. Thus allowing us imperfect but desiring perfection into God's presence.

He does not punish us for using intelligence. He only punishes us if we use our intelligence and then act against it.
So if I put the toilet roll on the holder so that the paper comes off upwards instead of downwards, is that punishable? It goes against my intelligence, because I know it's supposed to go on the other way 'round.

So if I put the toilet roll on the holder so that the paper comes off upwards instead of downwards, is that punishable? It goes against my intelligence, because I know it's supposed to go on the other way 'round.


LOL ok, you caught me in a grave generalization :D but I think you know what I meant. :) Knowing something is morally wrong and doing it anyway.

God did not create a flawed creature. He created a man with free will. THAT is a perfect creation. A creation that only does what it is told is a Robot, not a life-form.


A valid point.


Adam was just told that if he ate the fruit he would die. It was not a punishment but a consequence of a decision. Just like if you choose to jump off a diving board you will get wet. God is not punishing you for jumping off the driving board by getting you wet.


A blatant lie, he learned the nature of good and evil, just like the serpent told him he would. And once they ate from the tree of knowledge, Jehovah/Yahweh kicked them out of the Garden of Eden before they could eat from the tree of life and become immortal.. That is *FROM THE BOOK*


God does not HATE anyone. He loves ALL His children equally. But this is a giant testing ground. Like High School. Most pass,(in varying degrees) but some fail. Some even drop out. So it is with this life.


But not everyone are his children.

A blatant lie, he learned the nature of good and evil, just like the serpent told him he would. And once they ate from the tree of knowledge, Jehovah/Yahweh kicked them out of the Garden of Eden before they could eat from the tree of life and become immortal.. That is *FROM THE BOOK*


No, no, that is a common misconception. God warned him before hand, the only reason he was ushered from the garden was to get him away from the tree of life so that he would have time to make his life right before he was made imortal. For we are only to become immortal AFTER the judgment and Christ has absolved our sins.



But not everyone are his children.

oh, but we are. Every last person born on this earth is a child of God.

No, no, that is a common misconception. God warned him before hand, the only reason he was ushered from the garden was to get him away from the tree of life so that he would have time to make his life right before he was made imortal. For we are only to become immortal AFTER the judgment and Christ has absolved our sins.



oh, but we are. Every last person born on this earth is a child of God.
If we did not know good from evil before eating of the fruit how the heck were we suposed to know it was good to follow god and bad to listen to the serpant

As we did not have any concept of good nor evil

Papist Pride!!!

Catholicism Forever!!!!

oh, but we are. Every last person born on this earth is a child of God.

So... we are all god's children, and Jesus was god's son as well. How does that make him special in any way? Or more divine than each and everyone of us?

God did not create a flawed creature. He created a man with free will. THAT is a perfect creation. A creation that only does what it is told is a Robot, not a life-form.

He does not punish us for using intelligence. He only punishes us if we use our intelligence and then act against it.

The whole Gardin of Eden is a very misunderstood situation around the world. you get wierd ideas like original sin, and others.

Adam was just told that if he ate the fruit he would die. It was not a punishment but a consequence of a decision. Just like if you choose to jump off a diving board you will get wet. God is not punishing you for jumping off the driving board by getting you wet.

God does not HATE anyone. He loves ALL His children equally. But this is a giant testing ground. Like High School. Most pass,(in varying degrees) but some fail. Some even drop out. So it is with this life.

God would love nothing more than for ALL of us to return to live with Him. But you cannot have what you do not work for and earn. So God sent Christ to help us out since NO ONE could possibly make it alone. No one is perfect and that was the requirement. So Christ was perfect for us. And He stipulated rules so that He would speak on our behalf. Thus allowing us imperfect but desiring perfection into God's presence.
Thank you for posting this. I got caught up in dogmatic/pedantic discussion and missed my opportunity to post something along these lines. You nailed it right on the head. :)

Papist Pride!!!

Catholicism Forever!!!!
Ok WTF?

So... we are all god's children, and Jesus was god's son as well. How does that make him special in any way? Or more divine than each and everyone of us?

Well, he is God's only Son in the flesh. We are all only His spirit children. (IE He is the Father of our spirits)(That means we all have a spark of divinity but Christ had more than a spark, AND Christ, unlike us, knew exactly who He was)

Also Christ was:
The only perfect man.
The one who paid the price of our sins.
I could go on.

No, no, that is a common misconception. God warned him before hand, the only reason he was ushered from the garden was to get him away from the tree of life so that he would have time to make his life right before he was made imortal. For we are only to become immortal AFTER the judgment and Christ has absolved our sins.

oh, but we are. Every last person born on this earth is a child of God.


Listen, Eriadhin, I just read it out of the bible, he told him he'd *DIE*.. Dead, got it? Dead. You want to argue scripture, quote it. He was ushered from the garden to ensure he didn't become immortal because they would be as the gods. Read up a ways, that was direct bible scripture.


New International Version

2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.



King James

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

...

22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
23therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
24So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.



English Version

2:15The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat[a] of it you shall surely die."

...

3:22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--"
23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.
24He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.


Three different bibles, all the same text. Eat it, you die. They ate it, they didn't die. They became knowledgeable and became AS GOD and whomever his cronies were (Notice the plural). (As it says in the bold text.)

And then he kicked them out before the could become immortal.

I would also point out that in the original hebrew texts, the word Elohim is used to designate 'god' all through genesis. Elohim is *PLURAL*

I discuss religion using the religions text.. You want to argue this point with the text and proof in your face, bring it. But until you show me scripture to argue the point, all you say is hearsay.

LOL

calm down man. You just proved the misconception. :)

They WERE immortal before they ate it. That is the thing. They were allowed to eat the fruit of the tree of life BEFORE they ate the other fruit.

That fruit that God told them would make them die, DID make them die. It made them Mortal. Granted they did not die in that second. God never said they would. Because they were immortal and couldn't die, He warned them that if they ate it they WOULD die.

Becoming like God is the reason why we are here on earth. Satan's lie wasn't about becoming like God, it was saying they wouldn't die. He told the truth about becoming like God. :) :)

LOL

calm down man. You just proved the misconception. :)

They WERE immortal before they ate it. That is the thing. They were allowed to eat the fruit of the tree of life BEFORE they ate the other fruit.

That fruit that God told them would make them die, DID make them die. It made them Mortal. Granted they did not die in that second. God never said they would. Because they were immortal and couldn't die, He warned them that if they ate it they WOULD die.

Becoming like God is the reason why we are here on earth. Satan's lie wasn't about becoming like God, it was saying they wouldn't die. He told the truth about becoming like God. :) :)

Quote me scripture showing they were immortal. Show me your proof. It isn't there. He was saying they would die that very day. (Need I highlight these passages as well, these were, in fact, his recorded words?)

(Checks) Now wait a minute. Here's where your faith really gets odd, half my references say those were his words , the other half doesn't. And I've got about 8 bibles here.

English Contemporary Bible
15The LORD God put the man in the Garden of Eden to take care of it and to look after it. 16But the LORD told him, "You may eat fruit from any tree in the garden, 17except the one that has the power to let you know the difference between right and wrong. If you eat any fruit from that tree, you will die before the day is over!"

Holeman Christian Standard
17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt certainly die.


Someone, somewhere, needs to get their collective fecal matter together on this. :)
(For instance)

I'm sorry lass, but the position your currently taking is the one that infuriates me the most. 'See, you're still wrong', without showing me scripture to say how. You're debating a point from a book, with the book being the source of your entire faith. If you can't prove it from your book, you can't prove it at all. because everything else is conjecture.

So I say again, you want to debate the point, and prove yours, bring scripture.

You should tell them, and discuss with them why you don't believe. They (or someone more qualified) can then study with you to explain the questions you may have and then you won't be living a lie :)

Ah but niether you nor I can validate God.

I cannot prove he doesn't exist
Any Christian cannot prove he does exist

It all balences on faith, which I have very little of anyway, and what you're speaking of is re-education, which I don't approve of.

I will point you to verse 16. "you may eat any fruit except..."

ok. If they were not infact immortal, would God let them eat from the tree of life?

Also, can God make anything that is not perfect? no. He made a perfect body for Adam. A perfect body cannot die. Therefore to die there had to be a condition. Eat it and you will die. The evidence is there though it is not written as plainly as you would like.

I would give you more "quotes" but I'm at work at the moment and haven't the time. But feel free to email me or send me a telegram and I can get whatever you want regarding sources later. :p
For now, do try to see what I'm explaining. It has a certain logical sense to it.

WTF! 5 pages at 11:00 EST
14 Pages at 15:30 EST???!!?

Ah but niether you nor I can validate God.

I cannot prove he doesn't exist
Any Christian cannot prove he does exist

It all balences on faith, which I have very little of anyway, and what you're speaking of is re-education, which I don't approve of.

Just out of curiousity, why don't you believe in reeducation?

I will point you to verse 16. "you may eat any fruit except..."

ok. If they were not infact immortal, would God let them eat from the tree of life?

Also, can God make anything that is not perfect? no. He made a perfect body for Adam. A perfect body cannot die. Therefore to die there had to be a condition. Eat it and you will die. The evidence is there though it is not written as plainly as you would like.

I would give you more "quotes" but I'm at work at the moment and haven't the time. But feel free to email me or send me a telegram and I can get whatever you want regarding sources later. :p
For now, do try to see what I'm explaining. It has a certain logical sense to it.
Just because they had the opertunity does not mean they took it

Just out of curiousity, why don't you believe in reeducation?
I believe in it, I just said I don't approve of it.

I will point you to verse 16. "you may eat any fruit except..."


Oooo... Someone who'll nitpick scripture as close as I do. :)


ok. If they were not infact immortal, would God let them eat from the tree of life?

Also, can God make anything that is not perfect? no. He made a perfect body for Adam. A perfect body cannot die. Therefore to die there had to be a condition. Eat it and you will die. The evidence is there though it is not written as plainly as you would like.


A logical argument. But I am still concerned as to the 'As the gods bit'. If it were in fact a simple matter of eating from the tree of life to become dieties in and of ourselves, it seems a little odd, Doesn't it?

I mean, Knowledge+Immortallity = God. Knowledge+Immortality available in fruit?

Maybe those vegetarians are right.


I would give you more "quotes" but I'm at work at the moment and haven't the time. But feel free to email me or send me a telegram and I can get whatever you want regarding sources later. :p
For now, do try to see what I'm explaining. It has a certain logical sense to it.

Yes, what you are saying does have a certain logical sense to it, doesn't mean I entirely agree, but its at least an intelligently based argument. 'fore long we'll be able to get into the Tower of Babel, which is fun in and of itself.

I'll note at this point, that the bible makes a couple solid references that can be logically construed as man-kind not truly needing god in any sense.

I believe in it, I just said I don't approve of it.


Ahem..

Why don't you approve of it?

*heh* Got me there. :headbang:

Just because they had the opertunity does not mean they took it

Interesting point, but impossible to prove one way or the other. Its safe to assume they did. But since immortallity was again available at the simple consumption of a fruit, it doesn't seem like much of a threat, does it?

I will point you to verse 16. "you may eat any fruit except..."

ok. If they were not infact immortal, would God let them eat from the tree of life?
I'll try my hand a this scripture stuff.

Any fruit, but not "...from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden." (Genesis 3:3)

Genesis 2:9 "In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

There were two trees in the middle, hence two they could not eat from.

I'll try my hand a this scripture stuff.

Any fruit, but not "...from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden." (Genesis 3:3)

Genesis 2:9 "In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

There were two trees in the middle, hence two they could not eat from.

*applauds* Thank you Willamena.

*turns back to his other friendly adversary*

Your round m'dear, your last argument was just officially debunked by your own text.

Ahem..

Why don't you approve of it?

*heh* Got me there. :headbang:

As far as my point of view on the topic, re-education is directly sending your own propganda into someone's head, for a long period of time, you can completely convert this person to believe, think, and act, almost the exact same way you do.

But this is a discussion on Christianity, so I'm going to end it there for now.

Interesting point, but impossible to prove one way or the other. Its safe to assume they did. But since immortallity was again available at the simple consumption of a fruit, it doesn't seem like much of a threat, does it?
Greek mythology also had immortality-generating fruit, in the form of golden apples that (officially) belonged to Hera.

As far as my point of view on the topic, re-education is directly sending your own propganda into someone's head, for a long period of time, you can completely convert this person to believe, think, and act, almost the exact same way you do.

But this is a discussion on Christianity, so I'm going to end it there for now.

And how exactly is that off-topic? ;)

Greek mythology also had immortality-generating fruit, in the form of golden apples that (officially) belonged to Hera.


Heh.. I knew that, somewhere.. But I guess I hadn't thought of it as being relevant to this conversation. Interestingly, a great many religions referenced the flood as well.

And how exactly is that off-topic? ;)

Oh right, the whole "Convert to XXX religion" stuff....

Raises the headbang flag

:headbang: ================
:headbang: ================
:headbang: ================
====================
====================
====================
====================

:headbang: ================
:headbang: ================
:headbang: ================
====================
====================
====================
====================


I would like to reiterate that that is *NOT* *MY* purpose here. I just enjoy a good discussion. Though I'm sure many of you could guess, I have yet to mention what my faith is.

???

1. I wasn't mentioning you in particular, I was just noting that the general item of discussion here is Christianity, the Holy Bible, and Coversion.

2. Headbang flag + ? = ??????

It is a good thing to read up on what you are criticizing. No one here that is a Christian would say that they don't do those things.

Then how do you think you're going to get into heaven? I thought they were called the "Seven Deadly Sins" for a reason.

Have you ever read the Bible? Have you even ever read up on one of the core principles of Christianity?

Yes. I've read the King James version, several Protestant versions - even the Mormon bible. I'm working towards a minor in Theology, after all. (Of course, that also means that I've read the Vedas, the Talmud, the Tao Te Ching, the I Ching, the Sutras...anything I can get my hands on, really. Religion is a fascinating subject.)

The principle is that Christ died on the cross for our sins. His blood makes us worthy again. Just like in the Old Testament the Jews had to slaughter animals and spill their blood to cover their sins. Now Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice. Please read up on what you are bashing before you bash it.

Regardless of whether or not "Jesus" died on a cross "for our sins," you'll never find a christian church that says you get into heaven without believing in him. (Although I'm not sure what, exactly, you were trying to get across with that bit of propaganda.)

Personally? I'm for the unilateral ban of all western religions. No more Judaism, no more christianity, no more Islam. No more "god."

Reason #1 I'm not interested in being perfect: Last perfect guy got nailed to a cross.

Personally? I'm for the unilateral ban of all western religions. No more Judaism, no more christianity, no more Islam. No more "god."

Well, what exactly constitutes western religion? So far you've indicated the entire Judeo-Christian sect. What about Asatru? (Native religion of Norway), or the growing Neo-Pagan/Wicca movement? (Which honestly has strong eastern religious roots, as much as western Europe). Or the Greek Faith (Still strong in Greece actually, the old Greko-Roman gods). (Ok, thats getting a bit east)

He is all-loving but he is also just. He sets the conditions for salvation, and it is our responsibility to fulfill them.

No, He is not just. And this is one of the multitude of things that led me to the discovery of The Truth.

God created Man. God grants Man free will. Then God tells man: "If you don't use your free will exactly the way I say and the way I want you to, I cast you into the lake of fire to be punished for eternity."

That's not a loving God, it's the Godfather. And he's not being just, he's using horrible coercion.

ok... I swore I wouldnt jump back in, but what the heck? This is interesting. I appreciate hearing other intelligent points of view. (although saying that, not all of what Ive heard is exactly intelligent- but that can be said for me occasionally too....Im a hot head!).

If you take the Genesis scriptures back to the Hebrew, and study the context (as with everything context is key!) you discover that God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden, and prevented them from eating of the tree of the fruit of life to protect them! He did not want creatures he loved so dearly to have everlasting life in a world of sin and death. The garden was incredible, and wonderful and perfect and did not follow the same rules as our world now. Our world now is not exactly utopia. And our loving God (yes referred to as plural, its the Trinity...but let's leave that for another day another battle) cared too much to allow us to forever live in a world stained by sin. And they did die, didnt they? (If you are going to argue the same day point, I ask that you look at the original Hebrew and the context of the scripture, day is not always translated as 1 day in the original text...the translations were done by man, the original was God breathed).

Knowledge+Immortality = God. Knowledge+Immortality available in fruit?

Maybe those vegetarians are right.


This made me laugh out loud. :)

No Christianity for me :D

No, He is not just. And this is one of the multitude of things that led me to the discovery of The Truth.

God created Man. God grants Man free will. Then God tells man: "If you don't use your free will exactly the way I say and the way I want you to, I cast you into the lake of fire to be punished for eternity."

That's not a loving God, it's the Godfather. And he's not being just, he's using horrible coercion. No, people make a conscious choice to go to Hell - the absence of God - through their actions. They decide. If what they want isn't what God wants, what they get is eternity without God.

(If you are going to argue the same day point, I ask that you look at the original Hebrew and the context of the scripture, day is not always translated as 1 day in the original text...the translations were done by man, the original was God breathed).

That, actually, I knew.

I'll have to look back at the original Hebrew again (its been a while since I've read the Koran/Torah)... (Is off to do so)

That, actually, I knew.

I'll have to look back at the original Hebrew again (its been a while since I've read the Koran/Torah)... (Is off to do so)
I'm tickled pink to see someone actually having fun on this thead. :)

Heh.. I knew that, somewhere.. But I guess I hadn't thought of it as being relevant to this conversation. Interestingly, a great many religions referenced the flood as well.

Yup. Noah was pretty much directly copied from an Caananite hero called Utnapishtim.

Man its cool what you are doing here. If anyone is intrested in becoming a believer in Christ, you can also telegram me. I am actually going to college and will major in youth ministry.

Like i said you can telegram me too. God bless

You cannot choose wheter you want to become a Christian. Suddenly you notice that you ARE a Christian.

Once I was a atheist, but somehow I became christian, don't ask me how it happend... :rolleyes:

You cannot choose wheter you want to become a Christian. Suddenly you notice that you ARE a Christian.

Once I was a atheist, but somehow I became christian, don't ask me how it happend... :rolleyes:
Spontaneous salvation!

:)

faradawn, True :) BUT....it only mentions ONE tree. So WHICH tree in the MIDDLE of the Garden was off limits? It say tree (sigular) was off limits, not Trees (plural) ;)

close, but no cigar. Especially since in other verses it specifies only the tree of knowledge.

But again I'm on the run. On my way to dinner ...mmmm....yummie

faradawn, True :) BUT....it only mentions ONE tree. So WHICH tree in the MIDDLE of the Garden was off limits? It say tree (sigular) was off limits, not Trees (plural) ;)

close, but no cigar. Especially since in other verses it specifies only the tree of knowledge.

But again I'm on the run. On my way to dinner ...mmmm....yummie

I'll double check that, but I believe Willamena was the one who brought it up, I have yet to have a chance to check my sources, but I believe she's right.

I'll double check that, but I believe Willamena was the one who brought it up, I have yet to have a chance to check my sources, but I believe she's right.
The lines I quoted were out of context, but it does clearly indicate two trees in the middle of the garden, in a special place within the garden. The very uniqueness of their nature as extraordinary trees, and their placement together in a central position, suggests they are protected. Only one of them will 'bring death' and the other eternal life, but nowhere does it say it is okay to eat of the other.

but nowhere does it say it is okay to eat of the other.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Every tree EXCEPT the tree of knowledge. That was the commandment. They may have been near eachother, but there was an embargo on one alone.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Every tree EXCEPT the tree of knowledge. That was the commandment. They may have been near eachother, but there was an embargo on one alone.

And as it sits, you are correct of course. :)

Not arguing whether you scripture is correct or not, but what version of the bible are you reading?


Although this still begs the question: Why is the only thing we need to be as god is to eat of the tree of life, and the tree of knowledge? Seems a little odd.

However, I can accept that man was immortal previous to eating from the tree of knowledge, but it was gods will that we die after eating it, not some other cause. Meaning, of course, that god condemned us to death for being too much like him.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Every tree EXCEPT the tree of knowledge. That was the commandment. They may have been near eachother, but there was an embargo on one alone.

That's one interpretation, sure. But Genesis 3:22 ("And the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'") strongly implies that Adam and Eve had not eaten of the tree of life up to that point, and that it was Yahweh's desire that they not do so.

In all honesty, it's unlikely that we'll ever know for sure, as Genesis is one of the more heavily edited texts. It's likely that, in the original version, there was quite a bit of reference to the goddess Asherah, then considered to be Yahweh's divine consort, who was commonly depicted as a tree, and one of whose symbols was that of the serpent. Like the serpent which was her symbol, wisdom and rebirth were things closely associated with Asherah, hence the fruit of knowledge and immortality growing from the trees of the garden. Among other things, it's likely that Genesis 1:27 originally read something like: "So Yahweh and Asherah created human beings in their image. In the image of the gods they created them. Male and female they created them.", which seems to fit a lot more neatly.

Anyway, I digress.

That's one interpretation, sure. But Genesis 3:22 ("And the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'") strongly implies that Adam and Eve had not eaten of the tree of life up to that point, and that it was Yahweh's desire that they not do so.


Well, I would assume that eating of the tree of life whilst being immortal would have no effect. However, they lost their immortality upon eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, it was possible they could regain it by eating of the Tree of Life.

Umm.. sorry to jump in like this (I like intelligent debates like this :)), but I wanted to correct a little fallacy that's been mentioned (I can't remember--perhaps Faradawn said it?).

Yes, Genesis 2 and 3 depict two trees (Genesis 2:9 "And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."). One is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17 " 16And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."). The other is the tree of life.

To eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is to know of death, as they already knew life. Once Eve and Adam ate from that tree, not only did they became familiar with evil (sin and death), they disobeyed God, hence the "original sin". To sin, in its original Hebrew meaning, was to move further from (or completely out of, depending on what word you use) the presence of God. God was love, justice, and life. As they moved from his presence, they were exposed to hate, inustice, and death. Thus the "you will surely die" of Gen. 2:17.

Now, the tree of life. It was the tree of life that the Holy Trinity spoke of protecting, as should they, in their now sinful and imperfect state, eat of it, they would once again become like Them (or Him)--sinless and immortal (Genesis 3:22-24 "24And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.). But that would be unjust (Adam and Eve had yet to carry out their burden of sin/punishment, which equalled death, and since all sin must be accounted for, He could not let them go without the punishment and still remain just.).

He was not protecting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That deed was already done. Think of it this way: God commanded them before their fall not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of food and evil, however, he never commanded them not to eat from the tree of life. As they were already perfect, what would be it's effect? Nothing. However, the other tree would bring death. But, after they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God did not protect that tree. He protect the one they could eat of before, as it would restore them to original perfection.

So God didn't lie. They did die and they would have regained perfection from the tree of life.

Does this make sense or am I talking out of my rectum? ;)

Why thank you. I try very hard to be civil; I hate hypocrites. God bless.
I appreciate what you're doing in this post. Isn't there something wrong with this though?

Well, I would assume that eating of the tree of life whilst being immortal would have no effect. However, they lost their immortality upon eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, it was possible they could regain it by eating of the Tree of Life.
And why would god have a problem with us living forever if that is what we freely chose?

And why would god have a problem with us living forever if that is what we freely chose?

Because Adam and Eve sinned. They "fell short of the glory of God". Sin requires accountance and attonement. The original Sin is also passed from father to child. Why? Because imperfection cannot make perfection. As much as God would love to see us perfect, He cannot go around His Justice and take away sin without due punishment for it, and the punishment/attonement for sin is death. That's why he gave the Hebrews the chance to attone for sins through sacrifice, a replacement for their own deaths. However, the blood of animals could not permanently attone. If they sinned again, there would once again be the need for attonement.

This is part of why the Christ came. He, perfect from birth (as he was not born of a father--again, they pass the sin, not the mother), thus the perfect sacrifice. Not only did his death and resurrection attone for the sins we already had, but also all future sins we commit. That was his way of giving back perfection. He gives us the chance step back into His presence, thus live forever, and still remains Just. Sin was accounted for through Christ's sacrifice, fulfilling his justice.

To specifically answer your question, living forever can equate to living with God. (I already discussed the nature of sin.) They only way to live forever is to live with God. The only way to live with God is to be sinless, allowing us to step back into His presence. And the only way to be sinless is to accept the ultimate sacrifice for our sakes, which was and is Jesus Christ, and acknowledge him as your Lord and Savior. As He himself has said in John 14:6, "No one can come to the Father except through me."

Bravo people this has been a most interesting and enjoyable debate :)

Bold #1: And you know this how? What guilty pleasures do I want to hold on to? Hmmmmm?

Bold #2: What did Jesus tell the wealthy man when he wanted to join him?
premarital sex, porn, thievery, coarse language, etc., are all things people are asked to give up by God, and therefore have trouble accepting Him. I'm willing to bet u have a few yourself.

the wealthy man didn't want to join Jesus, he was asking what more He could do, to make himself more perfect and Christ-like. Jesus said if he wanted to be even holier, he should seel his stuff, give it to the poor, and follow Him. but He never says that is a requirement for eternal life.

sorry people, but I have a limited amount of time on the computer every day, and this thread has become far too busy for me to keep track of. so if anybody has something they want me to here, or is searching and wants to talk, please, please, PLEASE TELEGRAM ME. otherwise, I'll NEVER READ IT. God bless you all.

No, people make a conscious choice to go to Hell - the absence of God - through their actions. They decide. If what they want isn't what God wants, what they get is eternity without God.

Although I disagree with you, let's run with that one for a moment.

If God lets people suffer eternal punishment because of a bad choice they made in their pitifully short little mortal life, how is that "just". It's sadistic, not just, and it's certainly not loving.

"Hey, you're not living like I say you should. If you don't follow my advice you're going to eternal punishment, and although I could prevent that, I won't because you didn't follow my advice."

That's not justice, that's immoral. Under our own laws, that might even be considered "negligence".

Because Adam and Eve sinned. They "fell short of the glory of God". Sin requires accountance and attonement. The original Sin is also passed from father to child. Why? Because imperfection cannot make perfection. As much as God would love to see us perfect, He cannot go around His Justice and take away sin without due punishment for it, and the punishment/attonement for sin is death. That's why he gave the Hebrews the chance to attone for sins through sacrifice, a replacement for their own deaths. However, the blood of animals could not permanently attone. If they sinned again, there would once again be the need for attonement.


You know because it is obviously just to punish all of humanity throughout history because of what two people chose :rolleyes:
And then require us to jump through hoops to gain salvation :rolleyes:

You know because it is obviously just to punish all of humanity throughout history because of what two people chose :rolleyes:
And then require us to jump through hoops to gain salvation :rolleyes:


That is why Christ was sent. To negate the power of death and sin.

This was God's plan from the begining. We all knew about it and agreed to it before we came here.

They are not hoops to jump through, but ways to become more Godlike.
Christ told us to become like the Father. So he set a bunch of rules on how to do it. It is not all about Heaven and Hell. But inheriting Kingdoms and Glories from our Father.

With all due respect, I don't think that religion makes any sense. Science is so much more reliable and concrete. Hope that offends no-1

There are no hoops to jump through, and not even rules. The Old Testament had "rules" but in the old testament you had to personally atone for your sins. In the New Testament, under the New Convenant of Christ's Blood (aka the cross) this is already done for us. All we have to do is accept His free gift of salvation.

And to you who wants to make mistakes and get away with them, well....Im sorry - but the rant on that not being just is a bit...well... its just a bit stupid. Justice IS dealing with the consequences of your choices. Its not negligence because you are given all the oppertunity in the world to make the right choice. You can see evidence of our Creator in nature, in His word, and you've even heard about it from some of His followers. So really, how can that be negligent? You have the oppertunity, you make the choice, you deal with the consequences.

Its all in your hands now. You can accept the free gift, or turn it down. No one forces you, no one makes you jump through hoops, no one enforces "the rules".

I choose to live a certain way because I want to honor and worship God with my life. Not because He forces me. Bottom line is that I can truly accept Him and do horrible things and still I am washed clean from my sins. But I choose not to live that way because I love God and I want my life to be a reflection of His goodness.

You know because it is obviously just to punish all of humanity throughout history because of what two people chose :rolleyes:
And then require us to jump through hoops to gain salvation :rolleyes:

How is it jumping through hoops? It's a simple acknowledgement that God loves us and showed His love through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That's not jumping through hoops. It was quite easy for me, actually.

I'm going to take from William C. Nichols' The Nature of Sin, as he explains the Original Sin far better than I could:

Often people don't understand why such severe punishment should result from so little a thing as eating a piece of fruit. Again the words of A. W. Pink are helpful: "But they can see no harm in so trifling a matter as eating of a little fruit. Nothing, however, is more fallacious than such reasoning: the essense of sin is the transgression of a law, and whether that law forbids you to commit murder or move your finger, it is equally transgressed when you violate the precept. Whatever the act of disobedience is, it is rebellion against the lawgiver: it is a renunciation of His authority...The injunction therefore to abstain from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a proper trial of our first parent, and the violation of it deserved the dreadful punishment which was denounced and executed. He (Adam) was put to the test whether the will of God was sacred in his eyes, and he was punished because he gave preference to his own will."

Adam's disobedience to and rebellion against God had drastic consequences for all mankind. Adam either stood or fell before God as the federal or legal head of the human race and all mankind would either stand or fall with him. The results are seen all around us every day in the sins of men everywhere. Because of Adam's disobedience (he being the federal or legal head of the race) his guilt was imputed (transferred) to the entire human race. When Adam fell his very being or nature also became corrupt and wicked. All of the children of Adam and Eve (since they had none before they fell) would be born both legally guilty before God and born with a corrupt heart or nature as well.

Adam's fall didn't only affect the entire human race. I cannot remember who it was who said this (kudos to you, whoever you are), but someone commented that the Original Sin was a Pandora's Box, opening the corruption of sin into the very nature of the world we live in. Because of their choice, sin was let in, imperfecting a perfect world and destroying what was meant to be eternal. God, of course, did not want this to happen. He didn't want Adam and Eve to dwell in sin, nor did he want their descendents to be affected by the choice of their parents. However, that's the nature of sin. And the nature of justice requires that sin be attoned for. Since it had effected anything and everything, God found it then absolutely necessary to purge the now imperfect world.

However, God, also being compassionate and loving, did not want to see all of manking fall to his Holy and Just wrath. This is why he is allowing us a chance to step out of this muck and back into his presence before all the world is destroyed at the end of times (No, it's not the Apocalypse, as some would have you believe--it's actually quite a while afterwards). However, he is doing it in the legal and just way. He can't, in his Holy Nature, allow us, creatures affected by and dwelling in sin, to get around attonement scott free without some sacrifice of sin of our own. Once we accept Christ, we are also admitting that we are victims of sin, thus allowing him to purge us of it.

It may be jumping hoops, but it's God who's doing all of the work, not us.

My pastor used to tell us "If there are one-hundred steps between us and God, we only need to take one. God then will then take the other ninety-nine." I don't see how that can be sadistic, evil, and negligent. I see it as merciful, loving, and compassionate. He wants us to live forever in His presence. But he can't baby us to making that decision. We have to decide. Then and only then can God do the rest.

Romanore...

Im so impressed with your postings...Im at work, and cant dedicate more than a second every now and again to following this thread. But thanks for the more in depth and thoughtful response.

Just to let everyone know...I've created a forum for Christians who play NS in order to discuss all aspects of our faith away from the atheists, trolls and bigots.

http://nschristians.armageddonproject.com

It also says, "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." So the LORD God banished him..."


Umm, yes, but here is where a time table is crucial. This was AFTER they ate the forbidden fruit. So, they were forbidden the fruit of life AFTER they took took the fruit of death. Because then they would "live forever in their sins".

They needed a time to be forgiven, to work towards God and becoming more like Him. They had the knowledge part down, now they needed the actions.

*snip*
Now, the tree of life. It was the tree of life that the Holy Trinity spoke of protecting, as should they, in their now sinful and imperfect state, eat of it, they would once again become like Them (or Him)--sinless and immortal (Genesis 3:22-24 "24And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.). But that would be unjust (Adam and Eve had yet to carry out their burden of sin/punishment, which equalled death, and since all sin must be accounted for, He could not let them go without the punishment and still remain just.).
*snip*

The only problem with this idea that I can see is it implies that, having once eaten from the tree of life and been perfectly sinless and immortal, that eternal perfection can be undone with a simple sinful thought. Then it wasn't perfection, was it?