NationStates Jolt Archive

No, it's not Teddy and John, but another episode of zero-intelligence from out public schools. The AP reports:

"Two eighth-graders who spent months working on a science project to prove how dangerous BB guns can be were disqualified from the state middle school science fair," the Associated Press reports from Amherst, Mass.:

The reason for the dismissal: BB guns are too dangerous.

Nathan C. Woodard and Nathaniel A. Gorlin-Crenshaw spent seven months researching and testing their hypothesis that BB guns can be deadly and should not be used by children.

The students spent about $200 on ballistics gelatin, which has the same density and consistency as human flesh, to use during their tests.

Nancy G. Degon, vice president of Massachusetts State Science Fair Inc. and co-chair of the middle-school fair, said fair rules prohibit hazardous substances and devices.


The boys had a chance to get a "certificate of accomplishment", but they apparently realize a sop when they see it. They declined.

The moral of the story:
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Better not do a project on nail growth, either.

In my kids' school, nail clippers are forbidden as "dangerous items". :rolleyes:

Better not do a project on nail growth, either.

In my kids' school, nail clippers are forbidden as "dangerous items". :rolleyes:
You could cut some kid's nail too far down. That hurts, man!

I can't wait until the school administrators figure out that pencils can be used as weapons too.

I'm still walking around with a horrible pencil lead mark on my leg from a gradeschool pencil joust. It's a little dot on my thigh the size of a pencil tip - horribly disfiguring - maybe I should sue. :p :p :p

Better not do a project on nail growth, either.

In my kids' school, nail clippers are forbidden as "dangerous items". :rolleyes:
I think they are taken by the baggage police at airports, too. I mean cutting someone's nails to the quick is a tried and true method for hijacking an aircraft.

I can't wait until the school administrators figure out that pencils can be used as weapons too.

I'm still walking around with a horrible pencil lead mark on my leg from a gradeschool pencil joust. It's a little dot on my thigh the size of a pencil tip - horribly disfiguring - maybe I should sue. :p :p :p

I put one through the palm of my right hand in second grade. Horror!

Nancy G. Degon, vice president of Massachusetts State Science Fair Inc. and co-chair of the middle-school fair, said fair rules prohibit hazardous substances and devices.
"And now I will demonstrate the dangers of DiHydrogenMonoxide by inhaling a mere teaspoon full..." :rolleyes:

Never, ever get in a fight with those floppy rulers. You can get whipped and cut. Those things things hurt!

Sent that article to the chop shop first, didn't you, Myrmidonsia?

A project on BB guns is rejected in Amherst
8th-graders told idea is dangerous
By Associated Press | June 12, 2005

AMHERST -- Two middle-school students who spent months working on a science project to prove how dangerous BB guns can be were disqualified from the state middle school science fair -- because BB guns are too dangerous.

The two Amherst Regional Middle School eighth-graders, Nathan C. Woodard and Nathaniel A. Gorlin-Crenshaw, spent seven months researching and testing their hypothesis that BB guns can be deadly, and that children should not use them. Minors cannot purchase BB guns, but they can receive them as gifts.

The students said they proved that BB guns can penetrate a human to cause a fatal injury; pellets can penetrate farther than BBs; and clothing affects how far a BB and pellet will penetrate.

The boys spent about $200 on ballistics gelatin, which has the density and consistency of human flesh, to use during their tests.

The tests were done under the supervision of a science teacher, Jennifer D. Welborn, and Woodard's mother, Sharon L. Downs.

''We put a lot of time into this -- every Monday and Thursday since November," Gorlin-Crenshaw was quoted as saying in The Republican of Springfield. ''We devoted a weekend to the testing."

Ten days before the event June 4 at Worcester Polytechnic Institute, they were told not to attend.

''We had everything ready except gluing the poster," Woodard said. ''We got an e-mail that the project was hazardous and it couldn't be shown, because they didn't want to encourage kids to use ballistics."

Nancy G. Degon, vice president of Massachusetts State Science Fair Inc. and cochairwoman of the middle school fair, said fair rules prohibit hazardous substances and devices.

She said that she had not received a research plan from the boys, and that if she had, their project would have been rejected immediately.

The students and Welborn said they had sent in the plan.

''The scientific review committee does not consider science projects involving firearms to be safe for middle school students," Degon said. ''We've never considered guns before. We've rejected BB guns in the past."

They boys were invited to present their findings to some judges and to receive a certificate of accomplishment, but they rejected the offer because they had not been allowed to compete.

Woodard and Gorlin-Crenshaw said they were insulted by the invitation.

''I see their point of view. I don't agree with it," said Woodard, who used his father's BB gun for the testing. ''I was really disappointed. We had a good point to prove."

The pupils said they would send their findings to the Amherst Police Department for review, which has had to deal with the use of BB guns frequently in crimes.

© Copyright 2005 Globe Newspaper Company.

Sent that article to the chop shop first, didn't you, Myrmidonsia?
I usually put a link to the article. Sorry about the omission this time.

I don't think the presence or absence of a research plan, nor the science fair rules make the folks in Amherst public schools any less foolish. It isn't like the kids wanted to set up a rifle range at the science fair, they only wanted to present research results. Results that were obtained under the supervision of a science teacher, by the way.

I can't wait until the school administrators figure out that pencils can be used as weapons too.

I'm still walking around with a horrible pencil lead mark on my leg from a gradeschool pencil joust. It's a little dot on my thigh the size of a pencil tip - horribly disfiguring - maybe I should sue. :p :p :p


My granddad has a bit of pencil end in his finger - been there for 55 odd years. I don't remember if he got it from a fight or an accident, but yes, BAN PENCILS! :P

I usually put a link to the article. Sorry about the omission this time.

I don't think the presence or absence of a research plan, nor the science fair rules make the folks in Amherst public schools any less foolish. It isn't like the kids wanted to set up a rifle range at the science fair, they only wanted to present research results. Results that were obtained under the supervision of a science teacher, by the way.
And the teacher allowed it? That's mind boggling that despite ADULT SUPERVISION they were still not allowed. That's so asinine.

Sent that article to the chop shop first, didn't you, Myrmidonsia?
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

These kids get DQ'ed for doing [b]REAL SCIENCE[/b instead of simply compiling someone (adult) else's work.

On a Technicality.

Knowing what firearms and projectile weapons actually can do, as opposed to what myth and rumours and hollywood movies say is good. ZT runs amuck again. when I was in sixth grade (aeons ago) we had BB-gun battles. These kids do a bit of research, with real experiments, and measurements, using real gear on a real issue, and because they're middle-schoolers, they get DQ'ed...

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

As far as I know, the kids have only themselves to blame for not reading the rules and not sending a research plan. They have only themselves to blame for this. The rules say no hazardous material, and BB guns were rejected before. Had they asked, they would have known their project was not going to be shown.

And yet they did it anyway. Good for them and all that but the rules are there for everyone. They didn't follow them, so I don't see why they should be allowed to compete. Sorry, better luck next time.

So what is the problem here?

As is the case recently, you've missed the point. Try catching up.

i think it's a fair cop... i mean, they are school kids, and should be spending their time learning outrageously long formulae, or studying things involving really big words...

... sitting around shooting BB guns at some expensive material sounds a bit too much like fun.

String 'em up !!

:mad:

As far as I know, the kids have only themselves to blame for not reading the rules and not sending a research plan. They have only themselves to blame for this. The rules say no hazardous material, and BB guns were rejected before. Had they asked, they would have known their project was not going to be shown.

And yet they did it anyway. Good for them and all that but the rules are there for everyone. They didn't follow them, so I don't see why they should be allowed to compete. Sorry, better luck next time.

So what is the problem here?

Maybe I'm getting too old. I remember when I was in 7th Grade and a kid won our local science fair with a project involving gasoline and bare electrical wires, showing that the vapour is more explosive than the liquid.

This was in 1986, of course, we've become a lot more restricted today and more kids are on semihallucinogens issued by school-approved pill-pushers.

The DQ was legit, I can't argue that... but I can say the rules themselves need to be examined. What these kids did is worth at least an honourable mention for initiative, and it's also worth examination to make sure their work was rigorous and well-documented. It's not often you get kids doing something like this that has real utility.

Maybe I'm getting too old. I remember when I was in 7th Grade and a kid won our local science fair with a project involving gasoline and bare electrical wires, showing that the vapour is more explosive than the liquid.

This was in 1986, of course, we've become a lot more restricted today and more kids are on semihallucinogens issued by school-approved pill-pushers.

The DQ was legit, I can't argue that... but I can say the rules themselves need to be examined. What these kids did is worth at least an honourable mention for initiative, and it's also worth examination to make sure their work was rigorous and well-documented. It's not often you get kids doing something like this that has real utility.
The stupidity of the rules is the point. My elementary school classrooms all had batteries, coils, buzzers, and other such electrical devices available for experimentation. In fact, in 8th grade, I made a oil filled capacitor that scared the daylights out of me. Still, I got to enter it in the science fair.

I had a college physics prof that demonstrated momentum with a rifle at the back of the lecture hall. He told us how much the bullet weighed and how fast it was moving. We were to calculate how far a block of known mass would move when hit by the bullet. I could never have done that in a class at Georgia Tech, or anywhere else nowdays.

The cowards are winning.

As is the case recently, you've missed the point. Try catching up.

The "point" being that you and others get hysterical and present misleading information whenever anything is related -- however remotely -- to guns?

The real point is simple: the kids violated the rules of the contest. Thus, they cannot compete.

It is unfortunate that they spent so much time without properly adhering to the rules. The Massachusetts State Science Fair recognized this and were willing to make special accomodations. They boys were invited to present their findings to some judges and to receive a certificate of accomplishment. In a classic pout, the kids have refused. Instead, they've run to the media.

It is ironic that the point of the research was to prove that BB guns are dangerous and children should not use them. That rather proves the rule that would prohibit such research correct.

It is even more ironic that you would support such research and conclusions. All the pro-gun posters on here running to defend anti-gun research because of the way you spun the story. :p

Maybe I'm getting too old. I remember when I was in 7th Grade and a kid won our local science fair with a project involving gasoline and bare electrical wires, showing that the vapour is more explosive than the liquid.

This was in 1986, of course, we've become a lot more restricted today and more kids are on semihallucinogens issued by school-approved pill-pushers.

The DQ was legit, I can't argue that... but I can say the rules themselves need to be examined. What these kids did is worth at least an honourable mention for initiative, and it's also worth examination to make sure their work was rigorous and well-documented. It's not often you get kids doing something like this that has real utility.

Um ....

The boys were invited to present their findings to some judges and to receive a certificate of accomplishment, but they rejected the offer because they had not been allowed to compete.

The "point" being that you and others get hysterical and present misleading information whenever anything is related -- however remotely -- to guns?

The real point is simple: the kids violated the rules of the contest. Thus, they cannot compete.

It is unfortunate that they spent so much time without properly adhering to the rules. The Massachusetts State Science Fair recognized this and were willing to make special accomodations. They boys were invited to present their findings to some judges and to receive a certificate of accomplishment. In a classic pout, the kids have refused. Instead, they've run to the media.

It is ironic that the point of the research was to prove that BB guns are dangerous and children should not use them. That rather proves the rule that would prohibit such research correct.

It is even more ironic that you would support such research and conclusions. All the pro-gun posters on here running to defend anti-gun research because of the way you spun the story. :p

First -- The rules are stupid.

Second -- I'll agree they didn't follow the rules, and they aren't entitled to compete

Third -- The kids actually proved a corollary to their main thesis. That is that BB guns are safe when used under adult supervision.

Last -- I've never defended bad research. I object to the generalization. Well, there was the case of my colleagues and cold fusion but we want to forget that one.

Last Last -- Since when is this forum supposed to be objective?

From my experience with presentations, that presentation would most likely be a powerpoint containing the data from there experiments, backround information, an EDD, a statistics section, an analysis of the data, and a conclusion on the significance of the data. They would most definately NOT shoot BB guns. There would be no hazardous materials at the science fair. The project was conducted under the supervision of an adult who had deemed the project acceptable. The project was encouraging the children NOT to use BB guns and the like. Regardless of whether the data was obvious or not, the project should have been allowed to go on. It might have won the competition despite its obviousness. In fact, some of the best science fair projects are dead obvious yet present the data brillantly, utilize the apropriate testing (I.e. ANOVA/T Tests) and have a well made power point (among many other things that I could spend a hour listing). Therefore, the boys should have been allowed to compete. The fact that they weren't because of some pansy rule that the project SUPPORTED makes me sick :mad:

Btw- They declined to present to the jugdes to protest against being denied their right to compete. In other words: they were smart enough not to kiss ass and they spoke out. I woulda done the same thing in a heartbeat.

That is public school for you. Oh well, just about anything can be used as a weapon if you use it right. ;)

Oh, for the record, when I was in middle school I was stabbed in the arm with a pin. I didn't see em banning pens for it.

"And now I will demonstrate the dangers of DiHydrogenMonoxide by inhaling a mere teaspoon full..." :rolleyes:
Dihydrogen Monoxide is dangerous stuff. Get a puddle on the floor, you could break your hip. Hell, get some on your break pads and you're as good as dead. I would think it kills more people than guns do in any given year.

Therefore, the boys should have been allowed to compete. The fact that they weren't because of some pansy rule that the project SUPPORTED makes me sick :mad:

Btw- They declined to present to the jugdes to protest against being denied their right to compete. In other words: they were smart enough not to kiss ass and they spoke out. I woulda done the same thing in a heartbeat.

So you are equally too dumb to read up the rules and would make a fuss about that fact, proving that you are immature? Congratulations!
The rules may be dumb, but protesting them after not submitting to them and expecting to get away with it is moronic. You have a problem with the rules? Ask to change them before investing time and money. If the board doesnt comply it would be better if you do. It doesnt matter how fucking brilliant your work may be, if it doesnt fit into what is asked for.

There was a help wanted ad for teachers that a school system in Massachusetts ran a few years back. It was the standard kind of help wanted ad that you see from municipalities except for one thing. The usual EEO disclaimer was replaced with reassurance that the school system would not "decimate based on race, religion, creed, or nationality". I think the school system in question was Amherst. If not, no loss. It just demonstrates the typical intelligence of the folks that create and adhere to the zero-intelligence rules.

We had something similar in a competition I attended a year ago. If you won a match, you would receive X points, where X is your score. At the end of the season, we were the ONLY undefeated team in the division. We were so good that one team forfeitited the match. We wound up with second in the division. Why? Because there was no provision for how many points you get if you have not played as amny games as the other teams. So we missed the championship by 4 points. They could have made a provison, such as the average number of points per game, but they instead chose to stick by the rules.

While the kids should have stuck by the rules, I have a feeling that the science teacher who was helping them would have submitted a copy of what they were working on. The supervisors didnt catch it in time, and are now covering their collective asses by saying they never got it in the first place. Had they told the kids earlier, they could have saved everyone a whole lot of time and money.

Anyways, school projects can still be pretty dangerous. Gasonline based projects ae not uncommon, and one guy was doing domething on pain-based reflexes. This involved fishhooks.