NationStates Jolt Archive

...and here I was thinking that we Israelis were having it bad.

Here's what Lucy Ellmann from The Guardian has to say (http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1502952,00.html):

American sentimentality may once have seemed endearing, but now we know it's just another instrument of evil. Every aspect of American culture has begun to stink of the grave. The pizzas and hamburgers: this is how world tyrants fuel themselves. The cars, the drugs, the music, the TV: this is how they distract themselves from their crimes. But how can they still think they're right about anything? Their children are deep-fried, drug-soaked numbskulls, the adults hapless lemmings in their SUVs, heading straight into the back-end of the American dream. Where is the guilt - and where the apology?

Dear deep fried, drug-soaked SUV driving lemmings, I feel for you. Although I myself am not American, this kind of verbal abuse levelled on your nation makes me want to vomit. And once my vomiting bag is full, I will make sure to hurl it at Lucy Ellmann. She earned it, after all.

On behalf of the US, let me thank you for your sympathy and your projectile vomit.

That really doesn't surprise me. MOST of the European media (the BBC, especially) absolutely HATES America. Not like I personally give a shit. *shrugs*

I have a feeling that Lucy is going to be waiting a loooooooooooooong time for an apology.

That really doesn't surprise me. MOST of the European media (the BBC, especially) absolutely HATES America. Not like I personally give a shit. *shrugs*

I have a feeling that Lucy is going to be waiting a loooooooooooooong time for an apology.

The Apology (http://www.sorryeverybody.com/) was made right after the election.

And you know what the sad part is?

Most of that is actually true.

Example: I live in Scottsdale Arizona. Guess what car I see the most of: The H2. The second most? The Cadillac Escalade.

Guess what every other resturant is? Fast food.
Guess how many spolied little asshole kids are running around? More than I can conviently count, in a year.
Guess how many are fat little spoiled kids? See above answer.

She may be hating America, but sadly enough, she comes close enough to be right.

So?
Doesn't hurt my feelings a bit. She actually has a couple of valid gripes, which people would probably take more seriously if she would quit getting hysterical.

That's not just America, that's everyone...

That really doesn't surprise me. MOST of the European media (the BBC, especially) absolutely HATES America. Not like I personally give a shit. *shrugs*

I have a feeling that Lucy is going to be waiting a loooooooooooooong time for an apology.

Yes, and nothing says "Not like I personally give a shit" like responding to it.

Busheviks live to gloat over this kind of stuff.

:rolleyes:

Looking like America is still insecure over petty insults despite its alleged global and moral superiority.

moral superiority.

you're giving us that much credit? Wow.

That's not just America, that's everyone...
Ding. The irony, of course, is that things like obesity are beginning to rise in other countries, including Britain, much faster than they ever rose in the states. And at least we don't have chavs.

Example: I live in Scottsdale Arizona. Guess what car I see the most of: The H2. The second most? The Cadillac Escalade.

Guess what every other resturant is? Fast food.
Guess how many spolied little asshole kids are running around? More than I can conviently count, in a year.
Guess how many are fat little spoiled kids? See above answer.
Yeah, but Scottsdale is an anomaly. I mean, seriously. That place is weird.

I played a gig there (at the Rocking Horse) years ago and that place was like something out of The Stepford Wives...everything clean and neat and cookie cutter. It's like NO other city I've ever seen. Creepy as hell.

One good thing, though: you can buy Jaegermeister at the 7-11. :p

:rolleyes: I get the feeling she has not looked at british suburbia recently...land rovers, crappy garage music and microwave meals anyone?

It may be shrill and childish, but it is reasonably accurate, especially if you look in the most suburbanized places. Examples around my relatively fit city of Seattle would include suburbs like Lynnwood, Everett, Marysville, and many more. I swear that at least half of all SUV sales are unwarranted with regard to the actual need for a vehicle that large (especially when driven by some suburban brood mare who can't even park the damn thing). Then come the spinning/floating rims. What a fucking travesty and a waste. If status is all that folks with money can seem to spend their money on, then something is terribly wrong.

7% of the world's population consuming upwards of 40% of its resources? That's what makes me vomit.

No need for an apology is presented here. All I see is someone who refused to sugarcoat the truth and chose to reveal it. And what I see is a lot of my countrymen who, rather than face the fact the true spirit of America was long ago buried by the brackish waters of its greed, would rather use ignorance and self-rightiousness to cover their insecurity. Frankly, it's disgusting. But the worst part is the fact the corruption and cancer are spreading. This is merely the sign of our times.

I say this: If the U.S. wishes to eat itself to death, so be it. And if, when it is too late, minor nations choose to invade, then at least we can say the Roman allegory is finally complete.

Aww poor America. Here have donut.

:rolleyes: I get the feeling she has not looked at british suburbia recently...land rovers, crappy garage music and microwave meals anyone?

Perhaps she would have done, had she been reviewing a book set in British suburbia. As it was, her comments were part of a piece of fiction that she disliked fairly intensely, and which was set in the US. It would be a little odd for her to add, 'oh yeah, we suck too', given the context.

Blessings
Cyber

Aww poor America. Here have donut.
*falls over laughing*

Ich bin ein Berliner! :p

And what I see is a lot of my countrymen who, rather than face the fact the true spirit of America was long ago buried by the brackish waters of its greed, would rather use ignorance and self-rightiousness to cover their insecurity.

What exactly is the “true spirit of America”?
I’m not trying to be condescending. I just hear these kind of comments quite often, and I don’t really understand their meaning.

Perhaps she would have done, had she been reviewing a book set in British suburbia. As it was, her comments were part of a piece of fiction that she disliked fairly intensely, and which was set in the US. It would be a little odd for her to add, 'oh yeah, we suck too', given the context.

Blessings
Cyber

True, but laying into a country like she did, in a very much 'holier than thou' attitude, it seems just slightly hypocritical to me.

What exactly is the “true spirit of America”?
I’m not trying to be condescending. I just hear these kind of comments quite often, and I don’t really understand their meaning.

IMHO, opinons on what the 'spirit of america' is vary as much as the people who make up the country itself.

What exactly is the “true spirit of America”?
I’m not trying to be condescending. I just hear these kind of comments quite often, and I don’t really understand their meaning.

The traditional spirit of America? You'd have to double the greed, triple the ambition, and quadruple any feelings of moral superiority the average American citizen has today.

The average American knows we have it pretty good here, but few would say that we're somehow "better" than other Western countries. A hundred years ago? The average person had little doubt we were the greatest nation on God's Earth. Greed/Ambition/other undesirable drives are at a low tide, historically, in this Country, I think.

IMHO, opinons on what the 'spirit of america' is vary as much as the people who make up the country itself.

I am well aware of that. I just want to know what this person means by using that term. I strongly suspect that they don't have an actual meaning for it, but I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

What exactly is the “true spirit of America”?
I’m not trying to be condescending. I just hear these kind of comments quite often, and I don’t really understand their meaning.

Take a look in the Declaration of Independence. It was on those ideals that the nation was set into motion to exist.

Edit: Oh, and because I'm feeling capricious, I'm going to go ahead and correct this. I'm female.

Take a look in the Declaration of Independence. It was on those ideals that the nation was set into motion to exist.

And how, exactly, have we abandoned those ideals?

Take a look in the Declaration of Independence. It was on those ideals that the nation was set into motion to exist.

Edit: Oh, and because I'm feeling capricious, I'm going to go ahead and correct this. I'm female.

We weren't greedy back then?

Yeah, but Scottsdale is an anomaly. I mean, seriously. That place is weird.

I played a gig there (at the Rocking Horse) years ago and that place was like something out of The Stepford Wives...everything clean and neat and cookie cutter. It's like NO other city I've ever seen. Creepy as hell.

One good thing, though: you can buy Jaegermeister at the 7-11. :p

I can fully appreciate the point there.

Scottsdale in three phrases: big cars, rich people, plastic surgery

And how, exactly, have we abandoned those ideals?

It isn't obvious? Your in a nation that cares more about money than it does about freedom and is willing to bend knee to corruption. This nation was founded in response to percieved corruption, and now it has the irony of being corrupted.

We weren't greedy back then?

I'm not going to lie and say we weren't. The U.S. has always struggled with greed and stupidity. Lately, I see more and more signs that it has given up the fight.

I can fully appreciate the point there.

Scottsdale in three phrases: big cars, rich people, plastic surgery

Sounds like half of California. :p Last time I was in Scottsdale, it looked like California, only with more cactus.

That really doesn't surprise me. MOST of the European media (the BBC, especially) absolutely HATES America. Not like I personally give a shit. *shrugs*

I have a feeling that Lucy is going to be waiting a loooooooooooooong time for an apology.
What utter BS.
The BBC is the most unbiased news service in the world.
This was from the Guardian which is very biased. The two are completely unrelated.
Another case of a US citizen failing to understand the rest of the world and its attitude towards his country and of course you don't care. That was what she was complaining about. "Me, my country and screw the rest of you", No?

It isn't obvious? Your in a nation that cares more about money than it does about freedom and is willing to bend knee to corruption. This nation was founded in response to percieved corruption, and now it has the irony of being corrupted.

I’m still not following you, it’s a bit of an abstract explanation. Perhaps you could provide an example?

Sounds like half of California. :p Last time I was in Scottsdale, it looked like California, only with more cactus.

It also sounds like the typical South Floridian suburb.

What utter BS.
The BBC is the most unbiased news service in the world.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA! Woo!

I not even going to TOUCH that. Thanks for the laugh, though! :D

I love how the first paragraph in that review is an inflammatory, incoherent, idiotic rant which has little to do with the book being reviewed. :rolleyes:

Not replying to anyone in particular, but some have noticed that the closer they get to the suburbs, the more SUV's, Hummers, or greed in general they see. Couldn't it be that places with little structural individuality (cookie-cutter houses, built on top of each other, limited privacy) bring out the desire for such visible "status symbols" as expensive cars, fancy rims, etc.? That's something I've wondered. In my experience, rural (non-highschool-aged) citizens tend to be less absorbed in physically parading some display of wealth (or feigned wealth), and more often distinguish themselves in other ways. I haven't been everywhere though, so I could be off.

I’m still not following you, it’s a bit of an abstract explanation. Perhaps you could provide an example?

Not really. I'm just getting too philosophical right now. It comes with what time it is.

Not replying to anyone in particular, but some have noticed that the closer they get to the suburbs, the more SUV's, Hummers, or greed in general they see. Couldn't it be that places with little structural individuality (cookie-cutter houses, built on top of each other, limited privacy) bring out the desire for such visible "status symbols" as expensive cars, fancy rims, etc.? That's something I've wondered. In my experience, rural (non-highschool-aged) citizens tend to be less absorbed in physically parading some display of wealth (or feigned wealth), and more often distinguish themselves in other ways. I haven't been everywhere though, so I could be off.
Actually, you're pretty much dead on. Even in the inner city, displays of wealth and status are prevalent, although in a different way (lots of "bling" and big rolls of cash).

Where I grew up (in the sticks), wealth was more shown in large parcels of land (10,000 acre ranches and such), but overt shows of wealth (bling, large and heavily accessorized cars/trucks, etc) weren't really seen. Even the big trucks that ranchers had were utilitarian in nature.

Anyone care to provide a cogent argument against what this woman wrote?

Anyone care to provide a cogent argument against what this woman wrote?
What? Other than the fact that it's rather hypocritical, a blatant overgeneralization and brainlessly arrogant?

What? Other than the fact that it's rather hypocritical, a blatant overgeneralization and brainlessly arrogant?


"Hypocracy" does not detract from the validity of an argument. It is entirely ad hominem. One thief calling another thief a thief doesnt acquit the second thief.

Not every generalization is wrong. Arrogance does not indicate an argument is incorrect, that's another ad hominem point.

This is why I asked if anyone cared to offer a *cogent* argument.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA! Woo!

I not even going to TOUCH that. Thanks for the laugh, though! :D
Oh come on. I didn't say unbiased at all. just relatively unbiased.
Compared to soooo many other news broadcasters the BBC is a paragon.
If you're not sure check out Fox. Is that normal "unbias" in the US?

I can fully appreciate the point there.

Scottsdale in three phrases: big cars, rich people, plastic surgery
United States in 3 phrases:big cars,rich people,plastic surgery :D

Until the US signs up to Kyoto and stops giving tax breaks to the rich, the rest of the world is going to look down on their moral 'highground'.

Until the US signs up to Kyoto and stops giving tax breaks to the rich, the rest of the world is going to look down on their moral 'highground'. Well said. I totally agree. Plus the fact that we Europeans think we have a more developed society, in any case.

That's not just America, that's everyone...

So true. We've got solo mothers here, who have boyfriends who come and go more times in a week than the number of times I change my undies; and please ladies, I've seen the guys you consider, 'cute', and I'm sorry, at the age of 21, still working at the burger flipping joint, nothing to aim for in the future, and the biggest achievement is adding a spoiler onto a 1983 Honda hatchback as some sort of achievement - sorry, these guys are losers; the sooner these girls realise it, and kick them to the curb the better.

As for the anti-intellectualism that plagues modernday society, we can all thank the fox like networks that dum things down so low that even a one celled aneba could understand it, without too much problems. This anti-intellectualism is spawned off from this bullshit ideology that being better than someone else is a terrible crime, and should be crushed out - thank you tree hugging, moddle coddling socialists; the excuse industry the form of a political party, making up excuses for every stupid decision people make.

Hell, my sisters goes into social welfare, Type 1 diabetes (born with it, diagnosed when she was 5), and she plays second fiddle to Nicole Chav, solo parent, 5 boyfriends spread accross 3 time zones, and constantly getting the 'valued customer' treatment down at the local social welfare office, where her income is constantly propped up for every shit that is born.

I could go on for pages; the nutshell is, every country has a population which consists of rougly 80% bloody morons/idiots. The top 20% of the population pull their hair out every election seeing moron after moron getting voted in because they promised to "bash the gays", "Stop the abortions", "Send back the immigrants" or some other bullcrap populist grab bag of election promises.

...and here I was thinking that we Israelis were having it bad.

Here's what Lucy Ellmann from The Guardian has to say (http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1502952,00.html):

American sentimentality may once have seemed endearing, but now we know it's just another instrument of evil. Every aspect of American culture has begun to stink of the grave. The pizzas and hamburgers: this is how world tyrants fuel themselves. The cars, the drugs, the music, the TV: this is how they distract themselves from their crimes. But how can they still think they're right about anything? Their children are deep-fried, drug-soaked numbskulls, the adults hapless lemmings in their SUVs, heading straight into the back-end of the American dream. Where is the guilt - and where the apology?

Dear deep fried, drug-soaked SUV driving lemmings, I feel for you. Although I myself am not American, this kind of verbal abuse levelled on your nation makes me want to vomit. And once my vomiting bag is full, I will make sure to hurl it at Lucy Ellmann. She earned it, after all.

It could only be a Israeli that could post such nonsense? Looking for allies on the web? Yeah both extremist regimes of the US and Israel are close friends and allies in intolarance and racisme against mslims. They are close and fit one another, like Hitler and Mussolini.

It could only be a Israeli that could post such nonsense? Looking for allies on the web? Yeah both extremist regimes of the US and Israel are close friends and allies in intolarance and racisme against mslims. They are close and fit one another, like Hitler and Mussolini.

Gorramit since when did the US or Israel take 6 Million Muslims (Plus 3 million other various people they don't like... hippies?) and gas them to death?

Intolerance and racism? Try looking at your own post objectively...

Are Women allowed to wear any clothing they like in all Islamic countries, whether or not they believe in Allah, or will they be publically beaten for showing any skin except their eyes?

Tollerance?

Gorramit since when did the US or Israel take 6 Million Muslims (Plus 3 million other various people they don't like... hippies?) and gas them to death??

Because they only oppress 1 people (Istael), tortures it, jail 1000's of them, make the biggest open air camp of Gazza instead of gassing them does not make that a difference.


Intolerance and racism? Try looking at your own post objectively...

Are Women allowed to wear any clothing they like in all Islamic countries, whether or not they believe in Allah, or will they be publically beaten for showing any skin except their eyes?

Tollerance?

I don't know where your anti muslim hate comes from, but knowing that most Americans like to generalise complete groops of people, instead of regarding the individual. (a bit like Hitler was a genocidarian thus all Germans are, you tend to say that all muslims are antidemocratic and they all beat the shit out of their wives).
But I understand that you don't (wan't) to understand or see the thruth about both regimes with the least critical freedom of press in the West, or worse the least critical one for it's own crimes.

The BBC is the most unbiased news service in the world.


:rolleyes:

Because they only oppress 1 people (Istael), tortures it, jail 1000's of them, make the biggest open air camp of Gazza instead of gassing them does not make that a difference.



I don't know where your anti muslim hate comes from, but knowing that most Americans like to generalise complete groops of people, instead of regarding the individual. (a bit like Hitler was a genocidarian thus all Germans are, you tend to say that all muslims are antidemocratic and they all beat the shit out of their wives).
But I understand that you don't (wan't) to understand or see the thruth about both regimes with the least critical freedom of press in the West, or worse the least critical one for it's own crimes.


I'm not anti-muslim, but it's a fact that some muslim states have enshrined in LAW the beating and subjucation of women for transgressions of strictures about being modest... is that just?

As to the Israelis making a large refugee camp on their border (Not the largest in the world by any stretch, that's in North Korea), well it's well within Egypt's capabilities to welcome and support their brother Muslims on their border in Palestine (As they are supposed to do according to the Koran!) but they do not. Egypt and the other surrounding Muslim states keep the Palestinians in a state of abject poverty as a pragmatic means of making Israel look bad.

Jailing thousands (of terrorists attacking women and children in public places) and putting up barriers to keep out other terrorists does not equate to putting nine million people on trains to nowhere and then gassing them to death.

I'm not saying that Israel has taken the best course, hell I think both sides have often acted in a pathalogically insane manner, but if you think that Israel's actions (And subsequent withdrawals from territory that is not rightfully theirs) equate to the murdering of nine million Jews, Gypsies and other such 'deviant' people in the death camps then I think you have a serious problem with perspective.

Evilness, don't even bother talking to him. Anyone who can manage to equate the US with Nazi Germany is obviously posting from the funny farm anyway.

Evilness, don't even bother talking to him. Anyone who can manage to equate the US with Nazi Germany is obviously posting from the funny farm anyway.

Whe it's a valid comparison, let it be made. Hitler/Mussolini's relationship is a comparable point with the US/Israel. It did not bring political beliefs in, it merely brought relations in. I am compaable to Hitler in some ways, so are you, just not in bad ways, nor necessarily 'good' ways.

More debate is stifled by people saying Godwin than any other cause around here. Not even mule-headed repetition of outmoded arguments beats it.

Dear deep fried, drug-soaked SUV driving lemmings, I feel for you. Although I myself am not American, this kind of verbal abuse levelled on your nation makes me want to vomit. And once my vomiting bag is full, I will make sure to hurl it at Lucy Ellmann. She earned it, after all.
It's a book review! Have you no understanding?

While I personally wish the USA would sink deep beneath the sea to create the Gulf of Mexico.

While I personally wish the USA would sink deep beneath the sea to create the Gulf of Mexico.

You need to finish this statementm for example, "While I personally wish the USA would sink deep beneath the sea to create the Gulf of Mexico, most people wouldn't agree with me because the Gulf of America would be a better name."

Or you could change your sentence to, "I personally wish the USA would sink deep beneath the sea to create the Gulf of Mexico."

Are Women allowed to wear any clothing they like in all Islamic countries?I dont know...and I dont care.

:rolleyes:
Whats wrong with the BBC?

Whats wrong with the BBC?


Nothing much, it was just the comment that they are unbiased :D

Ouch. The only line of that I'll fully support is 'Where is the guilt - and where the apology?'. While the rest of it may have some grounding in fact, it's so covered over with hatred that all it will achieve is to anger people. Not the way to get such an apology.

To the Citizens of the United States of America: We're sorry for our idiots. Please apologise for yours.

An excellent piece of work. Thorough and well worded. Especially the first part.

The world has the right to demand an apology from that horde of ignorants across the Atlantic. Their "culture" or apparent lack of it has infested Europe and threatens to replace civilisation forever. The blatant disregard your government has shown towards the views of the rest of humanity shames you. There is now a Mcdonald's in Venice, an endless sea of baseball caps floating around in London, and the hummer, which is possibly the most horrendous thing ever to have moved. All of these things are your fault and yet many of you seem to thing that you are the greatest nation on the earth.

Ouch. The only line of that I'll fully support is 'Where is the guilt - and where the apology?'. While the rest of it may have some grounding in fact, it's so covered over with hatred that all it will achieve is to anger people. Not the way to get such an apology.

To the Citizens of the United States of America: We're sorry for our idiots. Please apologise for yours.I end up apologizing for ours everytime I'm on this forum. True, we have more than our share, but that should earn the rest of us some sympathy points :p

While I personally wish the USA would sink deep beneath the sea to create the Gulf of Mexico.
Ummmm... you might want to pick up a map/globe and/or take geography class over again. The Gulf of Mexico already exists -- I live about a mile from it. :rolleyes:

Besides, I doubt Mexicans (or Cubans) would want the US to sink into the ocean -- swimming/floating to Canada would be a rather daunting task. :p

The world has the right to demand an apology from that horde of ignorants across the Atlantic. Their "culture" or apparent lack of it has infested Europe and threatens to replace civilisation forever. The blatant disregard your government has shown towards the views of the rest of humanity shames you. There is now a Mcdonald's in Venice, an endless sea of baseball caps floating around in London, and the hummer, which is possibly the most horrendous thing ever to have moved. All of these things are your fault and yet many of you seem to thing that you are the greatest nation on the earth.

But you're going to McDonalds, you're wearing the baseball caps, and driving the hummers. That isn't our fault. Your government is letting that business in... that isn't our fault. You could boycott this stuff, you know.

Our biggest problem is the huge tax breaks given to big business, and the fact that the average person is always getting screwed. We're not all a bunch of wealthy, SUV driving, junk food eating assholes. And we have a lot of true poverty here. Your media must not show the other side. Our rich/poor devide is getting larger and larger, and the middle class seems to be sinking toware the poor side.

We don't all think we're the greatest nation on earth, however, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

And I'm not really a biased person. For example, I watched "Control Room" (I reccomend it highly), and there were a lot of valid points in that docu. OUR media doesn't show us this stuff. We're being conned by our own gov't half the time.

BOO HOO :( . Now that you've got that out of your system!
I'm sure if I opened an American newspaper during the initial stages of the Iraqi war, I'd have seen something similar against the French..and did they complain? No the tweaked their tashes, and laughed in zer French accenzts!

Here's what Lucy Ellmann from The Guardian has to say (http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1502952,00.html):
Wow, The Guardian is really going to shit these days. They used to be good.

Anyone care to provide a cogent argument against what this woman wrote?

Here we go:

American sentimentality may once have seemed endearing, but now we know it's just another instrument of evil.

Instrument of evil? And I don't think she knows what sentimentality means.

Every aspect of American culture has begun to stink of the grave.

Then feel free to stop buying into it.

The pizzas and hamburgers: this is how world tyrants fuel themselves.

Yes, I remeber in my history books, the pictures of Hitler holding a Whopper.

Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure not-evil dictators eat food too. In fact, I'm certain just plain normal folks, regardless of moral standing, eat regularly.

The cars, the drugs, the music, the TV: this is how they distract themselves from their crimes.

No, cars are how we transport ourselves to desired points. You know, the way anybody that can afford one does.

Music and television are how we entertain ourselves. Again, every culture on earth has entertainment. In fact, music and television are pretty common throughout the world.

But how can they still think they're right about anything?

What is she debating here? What are we wrong about in this instance? Apparently a good chunk of her countrymen also think we're right, because they jump healong into what we export.

Their children are deep-fried,

Actually, we slow roast the kids in my family.

drug-soaked numbskulls,

As if this was meant to do anything but stir ire.

the adults hapless lemmings in their SUVs,

I don't drive an SUV. In fact, SUVs make up only 15% of automobile sales in the US.Any adult who does is probably doing it becausen their friends do. The same way everyone buys certain clothing because its in style.

I think its silly to blow $50k on a gas guzzler just to impress the neighbors, but we have this silly notion here that people can choose how to spend their own hard earned money.

heading straight into the back-end of the American dream.

The American dream is to be wealthy/financially secure. An SUV is actually not a bad indication of securing that goal. Granted, with finaciers being the evil bastards they are, there are people driving vehicles well out of their means. But, thats not the rule.

Where is the guilt

Ya, listen. As a person from an Irish family with a BA in history, the English need not lecture anyone on some sort of stupid national guilt. I'd rather listen to a neonazi lecture about anti-semitism

- and where the apology?

For?

I think the whole thing is just silly, but

at least we can say the Roman allegory is finally complete.

is worth a cookie. That was my recherche smile of the day.

Okay people, Listen up...


America Is a Nation..hopefully this can be agreed on by the most of you.

We eat. What we eat should and is not an indicator of our morals. WOOHOO!! I ate a burger this week. So bite my ass and send me to the gulag!!

oh and yes fries would be fine with that.

Another thing. Why the hell does the fact that a minority of the people in the US of A drive Sport Utility Vehicle anger you?!?! Are you jealous?? Would you like a Bronco my friend?? maybe you would like to walk barefoot through the jungle or desert like many other nation's people do everyday. Give it up.

Oh and this "american dream"... I know this dream. I live this dream.
I also understand that the "American Dream" is also the "European Dream" and the "Far-East Dream" And that is to be able to dream. to be able to make it in a world where everyone CAN make it. to be thankfull that you were born. not to be thankful that you where born here or there but just happy to be living. happy to be among the 6 somthing billion lucky people that are living that same dream. it may vary for some, but everyone has a dream. some kind of goal in thier lives, whether it be to run Coca-Cola Corp, or to graduate from High School. people dream. its only natural.

no need to apologize for dreaming. No need to apologize for Having my beliefs. And abosolutely no need to apologize for writing them on this computer that I earned with my money from a Job that I was accepted to, from a boss that had the same dream as I do.

I feel no need to say anything else on that topic.

United States in 3 phrases:big cars,rich people,plastic surgery :D


Not Everyone Is Like That! Just Because 1 out of 10 fingers looks bad doesn't mean the other 9 are bad too! :mad:

Although the article is harsh, it is not anti-americanism.

All of these things are your fault and yet many of you seem to thing that you are the greatest nation on the earth.

From the land of chavs, Crazy Frog and the future Queen Camilla comes that brilliant bit of insight on "culture".

We execute our own people.
We execute retarded people.
We have never collectively accepted the black people we kidnapped and brought here as equal human beings.
We butchered the societies of human beings who were here when we colonized and shunted the survivors into remote tracts of land and forgot them.
We poison our rivers and our sky.
We fill our children with fattening 'food' and ultraviolent video games.
We demand taxes so low that despite our collosal wealth our public schools turn out some of the most ill-educated students of any modern nation.

We have big ideas about freedom and liberty and all sorts of high-minded, deserving fundamentals for a great society. But few of us really ever take them to heart at all.

We have never collectively accepted the black people we kidnapped and brought here as equal human beings.
What about the ones that were sold into slavery by their own tribes?

As for the other part...speak for yourself. I view everyone as equal because we're all humans, until an individual gives me a reason to think lower of them.

We demand taxes so low that despite our collosal wealth our public schools turn out some of the most ill-educated students of any modern nation.

Yeah...You really need to shut up about this. There is little to no correlation between the funding of a public school and the results that it gets. On the other hand many private schools are funded less than public ones and yet do much much better. Also, DC schools are some of the best funded in the nation and yet have some of the worst test scores. The first step to getting schools back on track would be to break the backs of the unions.

From the land of chavs, Crazy Frog and the future Queen Camilla comes that brilliant bit of insight on "culture".

As opposed to the land of the pet rock, puppy ware parties, and JarJar Binks....

snip

Good to see you again Black Forrest, it's been a while. :)

As opposed to the land of the pet rock, puppy ware parties, and JarJar Binks....
Don't forget sea monkeys.

Yeah...You really need to shut up about this. There is little to no correlation between the funding of a public school and the results that it gets. On the other hand many private schools are funded less than public ones and yet do much much better. Also, DC schools are some of the best funded in the nation and yet have some of the worst test scores. The first step to getting schools back on track would be to break the backs of the unions.
I agree. The US spends more, per student, on education than most if not any other country and we're turning out idiots that can't even READ.

The education establishment is taking the competitiveness out of schools and instituting bullshit "feel-good self-esteem we're-all-winners" grading systems while shifting focus away from the basics and to such PC crap as tolerance classes and how to put a fricken condom on a banana. They're purposely making our children dumber.

No ammount of money thrown at a broken system will make it work any better. We have to fix the system itself...get back to the basics.

Don't forget sea monkeys.

Doh! And what about legwarmers?

Good to see you again Black Forrest, it's been a while. :)

Hey! How's it going?

Yea. This place kind of grows on you like crack! ;)

Doh! And what about legwarmers?
Don't forget spandex bike shorts.

*smacks self in forehead*

I agree. The US spends more, per student, on education than most if not any other country and we're turning out idiots that can't even READ.

The education establishment is taking the competitiveness out of schools and instituting bullshit "feel-good self-esteem we're-all-winners" grading systems while shifting focus away from the basics and to such PC crap as tolerance classes and how to put a fricken condom on a banana. They're purposely making our children dumber.

No ammount of money thrown at a broken system will make it work any better. We have to fix the system itself...get back to the basics.

Just a minor correction, as a percentage of the overall government budget, the US spends alot less than most countries.

Even so, I understand exactly where you are coming from, but with that being said, however, the people to blame aren't the teachers, they merely implement the carriculumn as set out by the (in New Zealand) Ministry of Education.

The people to blame for the crappy results are the clingons and the whiners who want their minority voice heard, with the Christians being the worst; wanting 'prayer' in schools, even though there is a perfectly good Catholic or Protestant highschool, a hop-skip and a jump down the road.

Just a minor correction, as a percentage of the overall government budget, the US spends alot less than most countries.
Actually, check the statistics.

Expenditures per student - http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d02/dt413.asp

Percentage of GDP - http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d02/dt414.asp

The latest stats there are 1999, but even then, we are outspending the majority of other developed countries, both by GDP % and per student. What do we get? Dumber students.

Also, I never said individual teachers were to blame. The education establishment (unions, administrators and university education degree programs) are instituting programs that are detrimental to our children's futures. The system, as it stands, is hopelessly broken. There needs to be a MAJOR restructuring and re-foucs back towards the basics (the "3 Rs").

Actually, check the statistics.

Expenditures per student - http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d02/dt413.asp

Percentage of GDP - http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d02/dt414.asp

The latest stats there are 1999, but even then, we are outspending the majority of other developed countries, both by GDP % and per student. What do we get? Dumber students.

Also, I never said individual teachers were to blame. The education establishment (unions, administrators and university education degree programs) are instituting programs that are detrimental to our children's futures. The system, as it stands, is hopelessly broken. There needs to be a MAJOR restructuring and re-foucs back towards the basics (the "3 Rs").

The best system I have come accross so far is the system used in Australia; it beats the heck out of what we have here in New Zealand; its strict, and concise. Concerntrate on the important stuff, and if people want to get all fancy free, they can wait till they get to university to 'find themselves' and 'express individuality'.

The latest stats there are 1999, but even then, we are outspending the majority of other developed countries, both by GDP % and per student. What do we get? Dumber students.Presumably it's genetic then, you're all asses and throwing money at the school isn't fixing it. ;) :eek:

Consider this (I'm going to be really radical and go back to the original topic of the thread): If the book reviewer had written her book in a balanced and fair way, no-one would have read it and it wouldn't have been discussed. Her...perhaps extreme points were likely made only because they help sell the article. Also, it was a flippin' book review. You know what that means? Her personal opinion, and gosh darned it, that's protected in probably every western country.

The issue with the SUVs is not that they're displays of wealth, but that you get what, 10 miles to the gallon from them? We have an Audi estate here at home, which is a very nice display of wealth; full leather interior and dash and all that, and we put in a £300 Bose speaker system. It's got the size to be useful for carrying vast amounts of shopping, or suitcases, or [music] keyboards, or a 'cello, or whatever. And it still averages at around 50 miles to the gallon.

The technology for cleaner cars, therefore roads and skies and a better standard of public health is ready and available, but for whatever reason (aggressive lobbying from the Oil Barons perhaps, maybe apathy from the American people), it's not happening. And that stinks to high Heaven of greed and selfishness.

[for the record, I like America. I visit quite a lot; in fact we have a home in a small Floridian town (bought with inheritance...I'm an only child...we're not absolutely loaded, albeit comfortable) which is very handy. There's plenty of normal, kind and thoroughly nice Americans, unfortunately though they're not the ones who get in the news.]

Wow, The Guardian is really going to shit these days. They used to be good.

Thats what I thought, my home town newspaper has hit the fan...

...back to the Independent I guess, even if it does have a crappy Sport section.