NationStates Jolt Archive

The situation:

My school is situated in North-East London, England. We just today returned to school after study leave to find something new, and somewhat odd.

Instead of registration, the school has now set up a new Fingerprint ID system, that replaces registration with a simple finger swipe.

This is only for the XI form students at the school [16-18 year olds], and the Finger ID systems are in the college study room.

The school is demanding that we all program our fingerprints into the system in the next week or so to start the system.

The Problem:

Me and a friend, after hearing about the new system have began to question the direct legality of this.

* There has been no Waver or Release form to confirm both ourselves, and our parents/guardians support to this program.

* The school is demanding we comply, without exception.

* I asked the school secretary, who would have access to this information? She said she didn't know.

* The information is kept on the school network, and is vulnerable (I've seen the school network hacked infront of my eyes).

* Take the school as a government organisation (It is a government owned and funded school, a public school), does this mean the government will have access to our information?

* I would like to know how this would impose on my civil rights, as both a human and a briton.

I need your help:

I am in the process of challenging this system, I only have found out about it today, and have only just started researching.

I need anyones help to find out the legality of this program, and our rights towards it, as school administration does not seem to want to tell us.

So:

* The legality of the practise?
* Who has access to this information?
* Can I ask how much in tax payers money it cost the school?
* Do I have to comply with the school?
* Does this impose on my human rights as a briton and a person?

If anyone knows any Legislation or information that is under British law that can help me question the legality, please help.

Thank you.

Sounds like it might be against the Data Protection Act. But I don't know, I'm no lawyer.

Sounds like it might be against the Data Protection Act. But I don't know, I'm no lawyer.

Sounds like it.

Sounds like it might be against the Data Protection Act. But I don't know, I'm no lawyer.

From what I know of the Data Protection Act (which was in 1984 I think), is the protection of documents and information on computers.

So it's a possibility.

EDIT: Data Protection Act was updated in 1998

If you're right about having signed no release forms... yeah, I'd have to question the legality of it. When you got to the school, you had to submit information under the Data Protection Act, which is held on the school's system. However, I somehow doubt that it specifies what information you have to give... if they want this system to be legal, they have to obtain parental consent as you are still in full time education and therefore under their stewardship, in order to add further information to your file

If you're right about having signed no release forms... yeah, I'd have to question the legality of it. When you got to the school, you had to submit information under the Data Protection Act, which is held on the school's system. However, I somehow doubt that it specifies what information you have to give... if they want this system to be legal, they have to obtain parental consent as you are still in full time education and therefore under their stewardship, in order to add further information to your file

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

The data protection act is more geared towards the storing and control of information, I'm reading through it now.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

The data protection act is more geared towards the storing and control of information, I'm reading through it now.

as long as information is not passed on its not in breach of the Data Protection Act, your parents won't have to sign a release if your over 18. As for the rest, the legality of this does seem shakey

Under the freedom of information act though, if you submit your details to the school, you can also demand to have all the info that they have on you disclosed to you.

as long as information is not passed on its not in breach of the Data Protection Act, your parents won't have to sign a release if your over 18. As for the rest, the legality of this does seem shakey

I'm 16.

And yeah .. I'm also searching for information that applies to the legality of this situation.

yea, IIRC, under the Data Protection Act you have the right to see the information they have stored

information on the Act (http://www.dca.gov.uk/ccpd/dpsubleg.htm)

Indeed, anyone have any information to judging how legal the entire process is?

Update:

Spoke to Citizens Advice Bureau, the guy didn't like the situation at all.

He seriously doubted the legality, and suggested I talk to the board of education.

He is getting back to me with some information.

I love the CAB, great place to get advice, helped me get my car insurence company when they changed my policy without letting me know

*cough*norwichunion*cough*

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

The data protection act is more geared towards the storing and control of information, I'm reading through it now.
I don't happen to keep a copy of the DPA within easy reach. But you're right... it's more about storage and flow of information. I've lost count of how many forms I've had to sign over the years that didn't include a clause regarding the DPA '98

Good luck with this, man.

Personally, I would have refused even if it was legal, and gone to my local MP and then a couple of local newspapers.

This is one of those cases where you do not need anything from them, but they need your compliance. Whenever bureaucracies are placed in a position like this, they hope people don't give it a moment's thought - thus a point blank refusal is a shock to the system. They probably won't have prepared for the eventuality. ;)

1984 is coming true :confused:
Not that I wasn't expecting it

Well done with the CAB move. I think you've done the right thing all the way so far. You haven't gone public. You haven't closed off your options. You haven't said you won't do it, just that you want to know more before you do do it. So your school isn't driven into a corner where they have to force you to, for the sake of "discipline", or lose face.

It's usually a good idea to leave the other guy a chance to back off honourably.

If you feel you need a bit more backing, though ... I don't know the names of individual British politicians, but weren't some of them jumping up and down recently about some national ID card? My thought is that your local MP might be of some use to you here, or you might (with a bit of research) find one who is.

Isn't there a British Civil Liberties Union/Association/Organisation?

If you were anywhere else, I'd say go to the Press. It's a good story. Kids stand up to system ... kids defy bureaucrats ... kids defend individual liberties ... (Forgive me, I know 16 isn't a kid, but it's not 18 and a voter, either).

However, some sections of the UK press seem to me to really deserve the label "gutter-press". There's little or no compunction for the individual involved in a story. They've got enough bodies to maul without adding you to their menu.

But keep the media in mind if things escalate. If you get the backing of some organisation or person -- like an MP, or the Civil Liberties lot, if there is one --they can handle this. They're professionals, they can take the flak.

Hope it doesn't come to that, though.

Have you thought about what you'll say if the school goes, "Well, every big firm these days uses pic IDs for their employees, some of them already use fingerprints, too. You're going to have to face this at work, so why kick up a fuss about it now?"

(Because employees give consent! You didn't ask me, der! [But leave out the *der!*].)

(Edit: I posted this before I saw Tactical Grace's answer, which basically has the same advice, only better and shorter.)

Have you thought about what you'll say if the school goes, "Well, every big firm these days uses pic IDs for their employees, some of them already use fingerprints, too. You're going to have to face this at work, so why kick up a fuss about it now?"

(Because employees give consent! You didn't ask me, der! [But leave out the *der!*].)
You can also play the "I'm just a kid, so right now I can do whatever I like" defence and refuse. In the real world, a company can choose not to hire you if you do not tick the box. But as a student, a refusal from you creates problems for them. They can call in your parents, send you home, give you detention every day for the rest of the year, but it's not like you need anything from them, not the same as if you are applying for a job.

Remember, they need you to comply, so sitting on your ass being difficult is an awesome defence.

Sounds like it might be against the Data Protection Act. But I don't know, I'm no lawyer.


Nope...not inless the information is handed out to any guy off the street who asks for it

You should also question the motives behind this.

Any company that has I.D cards or fingerprint technology will tell you the same reason for why it is in place:

Security.

A school, however, does not need this security. A school does not handle large amounts of sensitive information. You are not likely to be a victim of armed robbery in a school.

The only purpose behind this is that the school is too lazy too deal with regestration.

Well.. the EU is currently considering adding fingerprintscans to passports and other travel documents. If this goes through, you will probably not have a case: the fingerprint is then after all already included on your ID anyway.

http://europa.eu.int/idabc/en/document/3421/330
http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd%5B347%5D=x-347-85336

Try searching here for options: http://www.privacyinternational.org/

Well.. the EU is currently considering adding fingerprintscans to passports and other travel documents. If this goes through, you will probably not have a case: the fingerprint is then after all already included on your ID anyway.

http://europa.eu.int/idabc/en/document/3421/330
http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd%5B347%5D=x-347-85336

Try searching here for options: http://www.privacyinternational.org/
Biometrics is a good way to prevent fraud... but they are only considering it, so until it gets through, which with us in charge could take some time, the case is viable

... sitting on your ass being difficult is an awesome defence.

Sitting on your ass being terribly, terribly reasonable and mature is also good. The longer you keep 'em talking, the more chance you have they'll trip over their own words.

And keep copies, tapes if they'll let you, get everything in writing from them and give them nothing in writing in return -- with one exception.

If anyone official manages to exchange words with you in a situation without witnesses, use the "Morning-After Pill" letter.

That's the one that sets out his official title, then goes, "Dear X, Thank you for taking time today (date) in (place) at (X am/pm) to explain the school's position.

"Following your clarification, I now understand this to be ..." (and then you write down what he said; if you're really nasty, you write it down with a slightly different, pro-your-position, spin).

"As I believe I mentioned at the time, the view of (the CAB, my MP, whoever) is ... " (writing down what you said, but not pinning it on you).

If you don't get a reply back that says you've misunderstood their position, then surely that means you haven't misunderstood their position, and therefore you can quote it as damagingly and as often as possible.

This, of course, is definitely not cricket. But fun.

If anyone knows any Legislation or information that is under British law that can help me question the legality, please help.

I'm not sure if it's directly against the Data Protection Act, but they seem to be risking it a bit. I think they are required to store the data securely, so the school could well get in trouble if the network gets hacked.

If anyone knows any Legislation or information that is under British law that can help me question the legality, please help.

Thank you.
Sounds like Mahatma Ghandi stylin' time to me! :D

Nope...not inless the information is handed out to any guy off the street who asks for it

It was my understanding that other parts of the Act required you to consent to having your details put into a database, and being able to look at them. Which doesn't seem to be happening in this case.

And also for the data to be stored securely, like Chicken pi pointed out.

But who knows; I got taught this stuff in school, so there's very little chance of it being correct.

If anyone knows any Legislation or information that is under British law that can help me question the legality, please help.

Thank you.

I brought this up with my ICT teacher today:
- The school needs your consent to store details like that.
- They have to store the details securely.
- They have to get rid of the data once they no longer require it.


Although I can't believe the school didn't take the Data Protection Act into account, it does appear that they are in the wrong.

EDIT: Damn, I missed the link that Nadkor posted.

The situation:

My school is situated in North-East London, England. We just today returned to school after study leave to find something new, and somewhat odd.

Instead of registration, the school has now set up a new Fingerprint ID system, that replaces registration with a simple finger swipe.

This is only for the XI form students at the school [16-18 year olds], and the Finger ID systems are in the college study room.

The school is demanding that we all program our fingerprints into the system in the next week or so to start the system.

The Problem:

Me and a friend, after hearing about the new system have began to question the direct legality of this.

* There has been no Waver or Release form to confirm both ourselves, and our parents/guardians support to this program.

* The school is demanding we comply, without exception.

* I asked the school secretary, who would have access to this information? She said she didn't know.

* The information is kept on the school network, and is vulnerable (I've seen the school network hacked infront of my eyes).

* Take the school as a government organisation (It is a government owned and funded school, a public school), does this mean the government will have access to our information?

* I would like to know how this would impose on my civil rights, as both a human and a briton.

I need your help:

I am in the process of challenging this system, I only have found out about it today, and have only just started researching.

I need anyones help to find out the legality of this program, and our rights towards it, as school administration does not seem to want to tell us.

So:

* The legality of the practise?
* Who has access to this information?
* Can I ask how much in tax payers money it cost the school?
* Do I have to comply with the school?
* Does this impose on my human rights as a briton and a person?

If anyone knows any Legislation or information that is under British law that can help me question the legality, please help.

Thank you.

Your minors, so with our parental consent (unless the pupils are 18) there is nothing they can do.
If it is a private school(you call em public I believe) then they can indeed do this, but you all have to give your consent first. Consent is a very very big issue, unless its a government legislation which its not.

Email sky news or something about it.
Also, if it is a private school, you can take em to court. Its been done in Ireland!

Good Luck!

Also perhaps take it up with your dept of Education.
I assume this info could be given to the police, and hence be subjected to the Freedom of information.


Its a breach of your rights if your school do this, are there any reasons they have to take such security measures. In your final two years you really don't need this. Refuse, they can't make you as they didn't include it in school policy when you started the school year, or when you initially started secondary school.

yea, IIRC, under the Data Protection Act you have the right to see the information they have stored

information on the Act (http://www.dca.gov.uk/ccpd/dpsubleg.htm)
Yeah, and they have the right to charge you an administrative fee for supplying that info. medical records cost about £15 - £20 to get out of you doctor I think.

Also you or more likely your parents will have given permission fro them to store info on you sometime in the past and that will still apply.

Secure is relative as well. In my experience reasonable security would be simply to encrypte the data.

These systems have been impemented elsewhere so you probably don't have a leg to stand on. But, hey, exercise your right to complain. They, of course, may exercise their right to exclude you. This threat was made to my daughter when she repeatedly complaied about stuffed birds in her school library. They have the right to exclude you if you piss them off.