NationStates Jolt Archive

so, there I was, sitting down and looking through some stuff, and I stopped and wondered.....what does the word god really mean......

Christians are so very strict at saying there is only one God and such, but then you have to toss out a lot of the old testament to get that statement, and while looking through the new testament you don't really find anything about other gods in it at all, so this is more doctrine then anything else.

The common views on the Holy Trinity are supportive of a multi deity as well, but they cover that up with, one God three aspects, that obviously just keep secrets from each other, "no one knows the time of my return except for my Father, even I don't know" "don't blasphem the holy spirit cause it won't forgive you like I will" "Father if there is any other way this can happen, please lets do it that way, but your will be done"

sounds like doctrine christian God is either nuts or misunderstood.

then verses like Psalm 82, talking about G-d speaking in the assemby to the other gods. hmmm, G-d talking to gods, sounds like he is the leader of the gods. Old testament is filled with stuff like that, and basically the only thing that says there is only one G-d are verses that state, Do not worship other gods because the Lord your G-d is a jealous G-d.

Maybe its just me, but I guess this whole multi-god thing just doesn't make any sense, its like people that read the bible and follow it tend to get confused by the things they don't understand and 'poof' in pops doctrine that doesn't fit.....but they say its divine law.....kinda like that guy Jesus said not to, when he quoted the old prophet saying, "their worship is useless because they make man made laws and hold them as if they are Holy Doctrine"

Oh well, I guess its my multi-faith upbringing that allows me to see the Divine in all religions...

so, there I was, sitting down and looking through some stuff, and I stopped and wondered.....what does the word god really mean......

Christians are so very strict at saying there is only one God and such, but then you have to toss out a lot of the old testament to get that statement, and while looking through the new testament you don't really find anything about other gods in it at all, so this is more doctrine then anything else.

The common views on the Holy Trinity are supportive of a multi deity as well, but they cover that up with, one God three aspects, that obviously just keep secrets from each other, "no one knows the time of my return except for my Father, even I don't know" "don't blasphem the holy spirit cause it won't forgive you like I will" "Father if there is any other way this can happen, please lets do it that way, but your will be done"

sounds like doctrine christian God is either nuts or misunderstood.

then verses like Psalm 82, talking about G-d speaking in the assemby to the other gods. hmmm, G-d talking to gods, sounds like he is the leader of the gods. Old testament is filled with stuff like that, and basically the only thing that says there is only one G-d are verses that state, Do not worship other gods because the Lord your G-d is a jealous G-d.

Maybe its just me, but I guess this whole multi-god thing just doesn't make any sense, its like people that read the bible and follow it tend to get confused by the things they don't understand and 'poof' in pops doctrine that doesn't fit.....but they say its divine law.....kinda like that guy Jesus said not to, when he quoted the old prophet saying, "their worship is useless because they make man made laws and hold them as if they are Holy Doctrine"

Oh well, I guess its my multi-faith upbringing that allows me to see the Divine in all religions...
The Christian bible, in my opinion, proves absolutely nothing except the human tendency towards selfishness, cruelty, and need for a reason to be.

The Christian bible, in my opinion, proves absolutely nothing.


Hence, faith.

Not really. In Christianity, there is only one God, with Jesus and the Holy Spirit as His "right hand & left hand men", basically. Of course, we could go into biblical scholars' opinions and research, but I'm too lazy to go there at the moment. ;)

The Christian bible, in my opinion, proves absolutely nothing except the human tendency towards selfishness, cruelty, and need for a reason to be.
the christian bible itself proves that people should be more loving, caring, and non-judgemental. the problem is that people get arrogent and self loving and then claim themselves the title, Christian, even though the biblical Jesus would never have hung out with most of the 'christians' of this day.

Not really. In Christianity, there is only one God, with Jesus and the Holy Spirit as His "right hand & left hand men", basically. Of course, we could go into biblical scholars' opinions and research, but I'm too lazy to go there at the moment. ;)

in the christain bible there is nothing really said about multiple gods at all. Even his disiples commented on the faith of the romans because they left a shrine open to the unknown god, and it showed more faith then most others saying there is still the option of not knowing everything.

Hence, faith.
Or, as some would see it, blind conformitism.

Have you ever asked someone if they have an open mind? Any idiot will tell you he's got an open mind.

Have you ever asked someone if they have an open mind? Any idiot will tell you he's got an open mind.
I am failing to see the point to that statement....

anyone can say anything, I can say that I'm an 8foot tall green skinned Native american, but anyone that meets me will know that I am lieing. Just like a person that doesn't have an open mind that says they do will quickly proove themselves wrong.

The danger of having too open a mind is that your brain can fall out.

Or, as some would see it, blind conformitism.


That's not only untrue but inflammatory. Less trolling, more contributive posts please.

even though the biblical Jesus would never have hung out with most of the 'christians' of this day. Sorry, but he would. He ate with whores and tax collectors, remember?

That's not only untrue but inflammatory. Less trolling, more contributive posts please.
I'm only giving my opinion, don't hate me because my views aren't the same as yours. I'll try to be nicer now; I don't really know what came over me.

Sorry, but he would. He ate with whores and tax collectors, remember?

but not the religious leaders of the time, in fact he was rather crisp with them and said that they were blind and knew nothing of what they said they were. Instead he hung out with the ones that were sinners, but willing to say, I know that I am a sinner, rather then the church of the time that said they were beyond all sin.

I beleive that the currently accepted theory about The Father, Son and Holy Ghost is that they are the same 'person'.
Hence, God is schizophrenic.

I beleive that the currently accepted theory about The Father, Son and Holy Ghost is that they are the same 'person'.
Hence, God is schizophrenic.
1. Schizophrenia is not the same as split/multiple personality disorder.
2. If "God" is schizophrenic, I guess I'm "God"!

Or, as some would see it, blind conformitism.You don't appear to be exactly the most pro-religion of posters.;)

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

You don't appear to be exactly the most pro-religion of posters.;)

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe
I know, I'm terrible. Shame on me! *Slaps own wrist.*

ummm.....actually G-d was talking to angels....

Moses, brought the same point to G-d, when he saw a verse like that, to which G-d responded

paraphrasing "Let those people err, but let it not be said, that when i created the world, i did not let the angels have a say in the matter"

Who say's G-d isn't democractic? ;p, kinda weirds out he omniscient thing....but G-d, isn't a logical sorta guy...

I will solve all of the problems. Ok, there is only one god, but it (its genderless), but it's also three seperate ones at the same time. Very confusing if I say so myself.

Now even if there is no god (Which I don't believe since I am Catholic), the Bible is helpful for showing what the past was like, with rules, etiquette, and other things.

Or, as some would see it, blind conformitism.

Like USian Presidential Elections. The popular vote doesn't matter for anything.

Imagine God as in three persons.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

The Son (Jesus) is God, but he is not the Father.
The Holyl Spirit is God, but he is not the Father. God speaks to you through the Holy Spirit.
The Father is what most people connect to as being God, but all of them are God.

Try thinking... multiple personalities rather then multiple aspects.

As for the idea of there being more then one god, that is not true. When it talks about God ruling over a council of other gods, it just means that God is above all other gods, because these other gods don't actually exist. They are only false interperatations of God made by men. So technically their are other gods, but they aren't actually gods. You know what I'm saying?

Also: God is genderless, he has no form; he is a spirit, not a tangible being. But still, He is referred as male in the Bible, so it's not necessary to call Him an 'it'.

His Holiness Christ said: "The Father is in me." This we must understand through logical and scientific evidences, for if religious principles do not accord with science and reason, they do not inspire the heart with confidence and assurance.

It is said that once John of Chrysostom was walking along the seashore thinking over the question of the trinity and trying to reconcile it with finite reason; his attention was attracted to a boy sitting on the shore putting water into a cup. Approaching him, he said, "My child, what art thou doing?" "I am trying to put the sea into this cup," was the answer. "How foolish art thou," said John, "in trying to do the impossible." The child replied, "Thy work is stranger than mine, for thou art laboring to bring within the grasp of human intellect the conception of the trinity."

Let us, free from past tradition, investigate the reality of this matter. What is the meaning of the father and the son?

This fatherhood and sonship are allegorical and symbolical. The Messianic reality is like unto a mirror through which the sun of divinity has become resplendent. If this mirror expresses "The light is in me" - it is sincere in its claim; therefore Jesus was truthful when he said, "The Father is in me."

The sun in the sky and the sun in the mirror are one, are they not? - and yet we see there are apparently two suns.


(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 152)

Question. -- What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?

Answer. -- The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.[1]
[1 Cf. "Pantheism," p. 290.]

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man [1] is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.
[1 The Divine Manifestation.]

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors -- one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit -- that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality -- that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes -- became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied -- for the Sun is one -- but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, "The Father is in the Son," meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. *

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.

It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved. *

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 112)

Pardon me if I can't contain my laughter:

First off, saying "the Bible proves [insert any phrase in here]" is ludicrous in itself. That's like saying "J.K. Rowling's books prove that there are gods!" But I'm not one to bash Christianity... just organized (or, come to think of it, unorganized also) religion, well, wait, I guess I am, but I gave up bashing religions for Lent (what? It's not the Lenten season? My bad).

Second off, the Bible is not a purely Christian document. The first two thirds or so (I know it's more than half but not sure how much more) of the Bible was written by the Jews for the Jews. Now, the main part of the Bible used to "prove" (lol, still can't stop laughing) that there are multiple gods is in Genesis where God refers to God as "us", implying that there are multiple gods. Well, at the time Genesis was written, the Jews were a polytheistic religion. They just believed that YHWH (their God, improperly called Jehovah by several Christian, in wise circles called Yahweh) was their God who lived in a big house with the rest of the gods (Greatly Oversimplified there).

"Thou shalt worship no other God but me" (Pardon my poor paraphrasing, don't want to open the ole Bible).

That was to say, yes there are other gods, but I am your God, and only I will listen to and help you. Of course, the Jews dropped this belief well before "Jesus" was supposedly born (still laughing). They are no longer polytheistic, but they once were.

Give it a rest. If you think the "Bible proves [insert anything here]" (still laughing), then I really can do little more than laugh at you. Again, sorry, that was a bit cruel. I'm just a little euphoric right now (not a drug-related euphoria just had a very good day). But seriously, I suggest you talk to your preacher/minister/imam/rabbi/priest/self/God/divine guider/Kabbala Leader about your beliefs.

If you really want to believe that, start your own splinter religion. It's fun!

Sorry, if I offended anyone, there is a whole lot of truth in my above post, it's just surrounded by how I so abhor organized religion. Please forgive me, but again, what I said is true.

Sincerely, good luck, hopefully one day everyone will be able to accept death for what it is. Gosh, I really need to stick to the topic, my bad, it's just religion in general kind of upsets me. I'll stop now, sorry.

Sorry, but he would. He ate with whores and tax collectors, remember?
So you are puting today's christians in the same boat as whores and tax collectors ... intresting (not saying I agree or disagree)

1. Schizophrenia is not the same as split/multiple personality disorder.
2. If "God" is schizophrenic, I guess I'm "God"!
# DORE'S ARGUMENT
(1) I forgot to take my meds.
(2) Therefore, I AM CHRIST!!
(3) Therefore, God exists.

# DORE'S ARGUMENT
(1) I forgot to take my meds.
(2) Therefore, I AM CHRIST!!
(3) Therefore, God exists.


My argument: If you need meds, you can't be Christ.

My argument: If you need meds, you can't be Christ.
Therefore, "god" does not exist! :p

Therefore, "god" does not exist! :p


NO. Therefore God is not a pharmacist!!

Oh God, now you've got me going with questions of my own...

If God is genderless, why is it blasphemy to call YHWH, Goddess?
Why does God seem so wrathful in the OT, and all lovely in the NT?
Why do people say that Paul's works are acceptable in the NT? The requirement was that the authors had to be with Jesus or have hung around him. Paul only saw him in a vision, yet he tells Christians what to do in over half the NT?

Okay, I'll think of more, just needed to rant... I'll go off more on my "Paul" issues...

Like what is Paul's deal with women? Why must they be submitted? I know churches argue over whether they can be clerics. If God created us and we are equal in his eyes, then women should still be equal.

NO. Therefore God is not a pharmacist!!
You say that but from the outside christianity does look like one gigantic placebo effect to give people what they want

No, Catholics won't let women be Priests. I know the Lutheran church lets women be Pastors, and I think most other Prodestant religions let women be leaders, also. I'm tired of the Catholic Church being confused with the catholic Christian Church. When Catholic is uppercased, it refers to the Roman Catholic Church. Most people seem to think that all Christians are part of the Roman Catholic Church for some reason. All Christian are part of the catholic Christian Church. When lowercase, cathloic means "world wide" or "universal". Therefore, the catholic Christian Church means Christians in general, or the World-Wide Christian Church. In my opinion, the Catholic Church is a little nutty. No Birth Control, etc. Fundamentalists are even worse. Most of the time they pull facts out of butt, and say it's from the Bible. These are the "No Evolution, No Genetic Research, No Homosexualty" people are. Most sane Christians tend to Ignore them. They can be from any denomination.

UberPenguinLand, I agree completely! Well, except the Lutheran thingy... I think it's the ELCS branch of Lutheranism (more liberal), where as my family goes to the LMCS (more conservative) and they refuse women clergy of any sort. I don't think we can even be elders/deacons/etc. It's ridiculous.

Oh, didn't know that. I was referring to the ELCA. The only thing I dislike about the ELCA is Davey and Goliath. Yes, the ELCA made DAvey and Goliath, so go ahead and complain to them about it.

1. Schizophrenia is not the same as split/multiple personality disorder.
2. If "God" is schizophrenic, I guess I'm "God"!


I have claimed this godlike quality in previous threads. Hey, that makes two of us. You can be the Holy Spirit, I can be Jesus. then we just need a third wack-job to be God :p

Not really. In Christianity, there is only one God, with Jesus and the Holy Spirit as His "right hand & left hand men", basically. Of course, we could go into biblical scholars' opinions and research, but I'm too lazy to go there at the moment. ;)

Well, the way it was explained to me, by a Biblical scholar. Once upon a time, people were well aware of, and reconciled to, the idea that you might have your favorite god, but the people in the next village have their favorite god, and they seem to be doing just as well as you, so you can't really claim that yours is any better, he's just yours.

If one group of people conquered another then it was traditional for the conquered people to abandon the worship of their old god. This suited both parties, because the victorious priests gained new followers, and if he couldn't keep you from getting conquered then why would the losers keep worshiping him anyway?

When the Hebrews were conquered by the Babylonians though, the Hebrew clergy came up with a new trick to hold onto the last vestiges of their power among their tribesmen. They said "Yahweh is stronger than Marduk, he only let us lose because we haven't been good Hebrews. If you start being good Hebrews and do as I say then Yahweh will send us back to Israel after crushing the Babylonians." Well, lots of Hebrews converted to the worship of Marduk and some didn't. When the Persian worshipers of Ahura Mazda showed up and conquered Babylon the Hebrews got to go home and the Hebrews turned to the priests and said "Holy Shit! You were right." That's why the Old Testament is full of Babylonian and Persian mythology hastily adapted with Hebrew names. Like the story of Utnapishtim and the Flood.

So it was a fairly short step from "Yahweh is the most powerful god" to "Yaweh is the only god, all the other "gods" are only djinns and demons."

so, there I was, sitting down and looking through some stuff, and I stopped and wondered.....what does the word god really mean......

Christians are so very strict at saying there is only one God and such, but then you have to toss out a lot of the old testament to get that statement, and while looking through the new testament you don't really find anything about other gods in it at all, so this is more doctrine then anything else.

Other gods are mentioned in the Old Testament, namely Anath/Ashtoreth goddesses and the god Baal of the Sidonians (Judges 2:13, Judges 10:6, Samuel 7:4, 1 Samuel 12:10, 1 Samuel 31:30), the god Molech of the Ammorites (1 Kings 11:5), Chemosh the god of the Moabites (1 Kings 11:33) and "The Whore of Babylon" Inanna/Ishtar (Revelation 17:1-5) in the New Testament, whose "riddle-name was branded on her forehead". But yeah, no other gods for the Hebrews.

God acknowledges the existence of other gods but not that they are anything other than inanimate objects. Elijah pretty much deals with that issue when contesting with the 400 priests of Ba'al.

Originally, the Jewish faith was henotheistic, meaning that many figures were worshipped but one was supreme. This transitioned into the view of monolatry, or many gods, but only one is worshipped, which is what you have throughout a lot of the Old Testament.

ELCA Lutherans allow for female pastors, Missouri Synod Lutherans do not.

God acknowledges the existence of other gods but not that they are anything other than inanimate objects. Elijah pretty much deals with that issue when contesting with the 400 priests of Ba'al.
If they are nothing more than inanimate objects, then God has a weird definition of his fellow gods. I shall read about Elijah, though, thanks.

If they are nothing more than inanimate objects, then God has a weird definition of his fellow gods. I shall read about Elijah, though, thanks.
Was thinking the same thing but got distracted before posting lol
(its like you having to acknowledge other people … who are really cardboard cutouts in your biography lol) usually cardboard cutouts don’t deserve a mention lol

Other gods are mentioned in the Old Testament, namely Anath/Ashtoreth goddesses and the god Baal of the Sidonians (Judges 2:13, Judges 10:6, Samuel 7:4, 1 Samuel 12:10, 1 Samuel 31:30), the god Molech of the Ammorites (1 Kings 11:5), Chemosh the god of the Moabites (1 Kings 11:33) and "The Whore of Babylon" Inanna/Ishtar (Revelation 17:1-5) in the New Testament, whose "riddle-name was branded on her forehead". But yeah, no other gods for the Hebrews.

Not to mention the fact that the 'name' of God is plural (in Hebrew) - and that the same word is used for the God in the Psalm, and for the 'gods' that he talks to. All are 'elohim'.

And, of course, the fact that, despite a clearly defined trinity, there is a feminine aspect to God, in the form of 'shekinah' (as she is called in the Talmud) - who is the 'indwelling god' (the name comes from 'shakkan' - to dwell), and the pillar of cloud that follows the children of Israel in the desert.

ummm.....actually G-d was talking to angels....

Moses, brought the same point to G-d, when he saw a verse like that, to which G-d responded

paraphrasing "Let those people err, but let it not be said, that when i created the world, i did not let the angels have a say in the matter"

Who say's G-d isn't democractic? ;p, kinda weirds out he omniscient thing....but G-d, isn't a logical sorta guy...

Just a question. I've seen this before, but why do some people make it a point to write G-d?

Just a question. I've seen this before, but why do some people make it a point to write G-d?
So as not to blasphemy by accident

Not to mention the fact that the 'name' of God is plural (in Hebrew) - and that the same word is used for the God in the Psalm, and for the 'gods' that he talks to. All are 'elohim'.

And, of course, the fact that, despite a clearly defined trinity, there is a feminine aspect to God, in the form of 'shekinah' (as she is called in the Talmud) - who is the 'indwelling god' (the name comes from 'shakkan' - to dwell), and the pillar of cloud that follows the children of Israel in the desert.
Well, if we're grasping, there is also Sophia, the "Wisdom" of God, talked about extensively in Gnostic texts (gnosos is the knowledge she imparts). I didn't mention her, though, as she is often referred to as nothing more than "an indwelling divine power" in mankind. ( http://www.pistissophia.org/ )

What is most unlikely is that the Hebrew would be so different from all the surrounding tribes as to not have their own set of gods; they had the similar sky god and his requisite mountain, so why not the rest? Why just that one?

So as not to blasphemy by accident

But God is not God's name. If you say God, you're not taking god's name in vain, and euphamisms will never end. YHVH is the closest you can come with the english alphabet, but God is what you say when you don't want to say his name. Just like Adonai in Hebrew.

If you think that "God" becomes enough of a name through sheer use, and many people's ignorance that God has a name other than "God," well then, sooner or later, people are going to start saying that G-d is his name and that you shouldn't use that in vain.

Props to those who realize that "taking the lord's name in vain" doesn't mean expressing anger by yelling "God dammit" or surprise by exclaiming "Jesus Christ!" but it also doesn't mean saying "God" outside of prayer. It means saying "Yahweh." Like that scene in the begining of "Monty Python's Life of Brian" ("the film that was banned in Norway" as the Swedes advertised it), "All I said was that bit of halibut was good enough for Jehovah." Now that's blasphemy.

1. Schizophrenia is not the same as split/multiple personality disorder.
2. If "God" is schizophrenic, I guess I'm "God"!

Well, one of the big symptoms of schizophrenia is a diminished capacity for rational thought. Judging by the state of most world religions I'd say there's a case to be made for divine schizophrenia.

I will solve all of the problems. Ok, there is only one god, but it (its genderless), but it's also three seperate ones at the same time. Very confusing if I say so myself.

Now even if there is no god (Which I don't believe since I am Catholic), the Bible is helpful for showing what the past was like, with rules, etiquette, and other things.

It's a way of keeping the people docile by weeding out the bright ones.

"Wait, one and three at the same time, that doesn't make any sense."

"Burn him, he's a witch and a blasphemer."

But God is not God's name. If you say God, you're not taking god's name in vain, and euphamisms will never end. YHVH is the closest you can come with the english alphabet, but God is what you say when you don't want to say his name. Just like Adonai in Hebrew.

If you think that "God" becomes enough of a name through sheer use, and many people's ignorance that God has a name other than "God," well then, sooner or later, people are going to start saying that G-d is his name and that you shouldn't use that in vain.

Props to those who realize that "taking the lord's name in vain" doesn't mean expressing anger by yelling "God dammit" or surprise by exclaiming "Jesus Christ!" but it also doesn't mean saying "God" outside of prayer. It means saying "Yahweh." Like that scene in the begining of "Monty Python's Life of Brian" ("the film that was banned in Norway" as the Swedes advertised it), "All I said was that bit of halibut was good enough for Jehovah." Now that's blasphemy.

I agree but some times it is just supposedly for “respect” … I am not sure … I have never subscribed to the theory myself

MATTHIAS: Look. I don't think it ought to be blasphemy, just saying
'Jehovah'.
CROWD: Oooh! He said it again! Oooh!...
OFFICIAL: You're only making it worse for yourself!
MATTHIAS: Making it worse?! How could it be worse?! Jehovah! Jehovah!
Jehovah!

Well, if we're grasping, there is also Sophia, the "Wisdom" of God, talked about extensively in Gnostic texts (gnosos is the knowledge she imparts). I didn't mention her, though, as she is often referred to as nothing more than "an indwelling divine power" in mankind. ( http://www.pistissophia.org/ )

What is most unlikely is that the Hebrew would be so different from all the surrounding tribes as to not have their own set of gods; they had the similar sky god and his requisite mountain, so why not the rest? Why just that one?

At first there's nothing wierd about it. The Athenians favored Athena. The Babylonians favored Marduk. They all acknowledged that other people's had their own gods, but they were happy with their own until one of them beat the pants off of the other. It wasn't until you had large, multicultural empires like Greece and Persia that you had to come up with some sort of theory of plurality of being. The Greeks just said that all the mother/firtility goddesses were pretty much the same, and people were just a bit hazy on the details. Same goes for all the thunder gods, the ocean gods, the sky gods etc. The Persians said that all the good gods were just manifestations of the one true god Ahura Mazda.

The Hebrews took a new slant on this after the Persians set them free from the Babylonians and said that their god is the one true god, and all others are just demons and fairy tales.

I beleive that the currently accepted theory about The Father, Son and Holy Ghost is that they are the same 'person'.
Hence, God is schizophrenic.

Read the Nature of Pain by C. S. Lewis.

It helps.

The Christian bible, in my opinion, proves absolutely nothing except the human tendency towards selfishness, cruelty, and need for a reason to be.

...and provides lessons against being selfish and cruel, as well as other negative attitudes/actions.

I don't claim to be an expert theologian, but to answer the original question: You have to remember that the Psalms are poetic. If you read the whole text (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082&version=31), it seems that the 'gods' are men or rulers and other influential people. (Jesus talks about them as men in John 10:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2010:31-39;&version=31;).) The writer is lamenting the fact that they are siding with the wicked and unjust. Instead, he tells them, they should defend the weak and fatherless and the rights of the poor and oppressed. In the end, he says, they will fall and die just like other men.

UpwardThrust and Zotona could you two please give us your take on religion so us Christians could get in on the fun too. Share the fun, tell us about your religious beliefs.

UpwardThrust and Zotona could you two please give us your take on religion so us Christians could get in on the fun too. Share the fun, tell us about your religious beliefs.
While I think you are looking to pick apart my beliefs (which is fine … what fun is life without others and yourself challenging the boundaries of your perceptions) I am agnostic with a hint of light atheism (I don’t know if you can ever prove gods existence but I don’t think it is a smart choice to just assume one way or the other but I have a tendency to assume the negative unless someone can prove the positive)

I think, and it's just my opinion so don't get all upset or anything, that most of the major religions are about self. Not as in being selfish and only care about yourself but how you, as a person, carry out your religion's teachings in today's world. Your intentions and your heart, for if God is really almighty, he would have no problem in seeing you that way. And if he can't see that then hell is more welcoming for me.

I think, and it's just my opinion so don't get all upset or anything, that most of the major religions are about self. Not as in being selfish and only care about yourself but how you, as a person, carry out your religion's teachings in today's world. Your intentions and your heart, for if God is really almighty, he would have no problem in seeing you that way. And if he can't see that then hell is more welcoming for me.
Exactly … I personally think if it is an all loving deity that being true to myself and following my heart to the best of my ability, he would understand that weather it is directly in line with his doctrine or not. Seems to me to be the right thing to do, probably the biggest reason I don’t buy Christianities salvation by faith rather then works spiel

With the assumption on my part that the Bible is a factual document, when one who doesn't know God in this life meets him after death it's too late. I don't want that to happen to anyone.

I get really angry at the nonstop jabs I get on this forum for believing what I do. I get frustrated at folks like you two who constantly criticize us. That said, I don't want you to suffer the fate of those who deny Christ.

Criticize this concern if you wish. I'm done for today. Take it easy everybody.

With the assumption on my part that the Bible is a factual document, when one who doesn't know God in this life meets him after death it's too late. I don't want that to happen to anyone.

I get really angry at the nonstop jabs I get on this forum for believing what I do. I get frustrated at folks like you two who constantly criticize us. That said, I don't want you to suffer the fate of those who deny Christ.

Criticize this concern if you wish. I'm done for today. Take it easy everybody.
I don’t accept anything as absolute truth its not just your faith I look at and study and debate … its just what you choose to see because it is the most personal for you.

That’s fine … I do have a tendency to study Christianity (and argue it) more then other religions . not out of hate , but out of a natural tendency to pay attention to things that not only are in my own past but also the most prominent

I’m sorry if you don’t like your religion debated or your faith challenged but such is life

I believe in questioning one's faith, so arguing about it should not be seen negatively but taken as a chance to learn.

Only fools consider themselves wise, it was Shakespeare who said (and forgive me, I'm not sure of the exact quote)

-"There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy, Horatio"

Our lives are too short for us to claim full knowledge of the vast universe. Theres a saying and I'm not sure where it's from but it goes:

Everything mankind knows at this moment in time is but a drop in the ocean (Or something to that extent :P)

And I know that religion also teaches us to be humble, so dont get all worked up, it's only a discussion.

Back to my original point, I tend to go on...sorry, I believe in questioning one's faith not to find reasons NOT to follow it but to understand it. The word "why?" can teach all of us alot of things. And not questioning one's faith and simply following it can never be seen as divine...someone posted earlier "blind conformitism".

I don’t accept anything as absolute truth its not just your faith I look at and study and debate … its just what you choose to see because it is the most personal for you.
Oooh! Do me next!

Oooh! Do me next!
The difference is your belief as far as I have heard of it does not have any glaring logical flaws nor apparent contradiction to reality

you are really a lot like me but with more of a general deism rather then lean twards atheism lol

Why, I must declare, why would you try and tear down the optimism and tribal love of christians who actually follow and love the bible?

For the pure sake of destroying yet more of those who believe in something different than you? Now why does this sound so terrible again? Oh yes! Why it's called descrimination on the basis of pure hate! Oh! Ho ho, how very silly of me to forget!

People may have their own opinions, you have yours believing let's say in evolution, big bang, pointlessness to life.
Christians live it to serve God as best as they know how (even though most of the time it is against Jesus *sigh*) and try to extend their loving hand to those they see as "blinded" (IE: evolutionists, blah blah blah)

LET PEOPLE HAVE THEIR OWN OPINIONS WITHOUT FIGHTING THEM CONSTANTLY!!

because they feel they have purpose and that they lie to try and not judge and spread love and peace you feel the eternal pursuit of destruction? Let people have their own purposes in life and their own beliefs!
Even though I may not believe in creationism in the very literal force others do does not mean I should HATE all others who believe in the literal or scientific ways. It means I should listen to their opinions and nod my head.

ALL MEN ARE BORN STUBBORN, SO FIGHT THEIR WAYS OF LIFE ON OTHERS WHO FIGHT BACK.

This is how wars are started and yet most of you here are against all wars?
Hmm... contradictory, non?

Atheism has set backs and has giant leaps, christianity has many set backs and very few leaps, yet both groups are generally happy.

No one knows which one is right in the 100% proof. God has some examples and evidence, evolution had others, though one may have a higher amount; christians have faith in their beliefs as do you.

My personal feeling is that God is neither a man nor a woman, but rather a divine force, a source of great power that created all things through big band (seperating light from dark etc). The "creation" of man, in my own opinion, could be physically possibly through evolution and the bible using the true meanings of some destinct words.
Day means a period of time, so through a period of time God created all things, including man and plants and animals through evolution.
He created man by slowly giving knowledge through nature to him, improving the body, making it more physically capable of stress and other random occurances in life until the first true "man" was created whom we named Adam. Woman came later through time as well until they become knowing. WHy would this all not be explained in the bible? People in the olden days would not agree with the story of humans evolving from hairy beings who eat bugs off of each other, so this would not be an excpetional idea. They were shown love, life, and knowledge and through knowledge they learn embarrasement and shame, thusly being shunned from Eden or wherever and into the world. Because man evolved there would be others, thusly explaining how Eve's son married another woman besides his own mother and bred.

This is not my complete theory because I don't have time to explain it all, but that's just me. And I'm sure eveyone else's opinions can be just as confusing and nice, but that is their own ideas.

The is no need to bash on other's opinions just because they are different.

This is one of my favorite sayings:
"Evolution does not always mean progress.
Evolution sometimes leads to undesireable vectors.
It is arrogant for one to deny change because it is undesireable.
Embrace diversity."

Embrace everyone else's opinions and think through their situations and circumstances. You never can really know or pretend to have the upperhand on anyone until you climb into their skin and walk around in it. Not until that time will you be able to fully understand or fight anyone else's opinions or pretend that yours is best purely on evidence as standards.

One of all of our combined opinions is right and none of us will know until we are dead, and even then no one can fight over the issue because we will already be dead weather it be in heaven, as stardust, as a new organism, or as decaying matter buried in the ground. We cannot fight over this. Let people live how they want, let it be peaceful scientists, or venegful people trying to sway faithfulness by presenting scientific equations, or by the bible quoting pastors of the south.

I know even my own opinions are contradictory because I am trying to sway you to being open to all opinions, but once more, I have my own opinions and you have yours. Let us embrace this diversity of opinions rather than fight over who is right and who is wrong.

the christian bible itself proves that people should be more loving, caring, and non-judgemental. the problem is that people get arrogent and self loving and then claim themselves the title, Christian, even though the biblical Jesus would never have hung out with most of the 'christians' of this day.

quite wrong, Jesus went to the lowest of lows to bring them the gospel, anyone can claim to be a christian but not everyone is

quite wrong, Jesus went to the lowest of lows to bring them the gospel, anyone can claim to be a christian but not everyone is

but he didn't hang out with the sanhadrin or any other church leaders. He went with the people that they wouldn't hang out with, the same people they had rejected.

I would expect to see Jesus in a crowd from Rocky on friday night, or at the other rock venue places that you see the 'outcasts' of our day.

those that willingly sin, even after seeing the grace of Christ free them from their sins is enough for Christ to say, I don't know you.

That is one of the statements from the Christian Bibles. Sure, there are many from the churches that he would talk to, but from a lot of what I have seen, people tend to hold to doctrine over gospel, and their church over the Divine.

If I were to be inspired and walk into a catholic church and speak out against the people, they would turn their backs on me and laugh about it. How dare an outsider say anything against them. Just as the Prophets faced in the old testament.

The point of Christianity is not to prove others wrong, but to prove yourself correct in the direction of God. Who are you to judge anybody? You can only do so with the borrowed authority from God in God's words. So don't judge others with austerity while treating yourself with leniency. See Jesus' parable in Matthew 6.

The point of Christianity is not to prove others wrong, but to prove yourself correct in the direction of God. Who are you to judge anybody? You can only do so with the borrowed authority from God in God's words. So don't judge others with austerity while treating yourself with leniency. See Jesus' parable in Matthew 6.
A great objective ... if you want christianity to rule your own personal morals and life directions more power to you ... I may not agree but I compleatly support your right to be who you want to be as long as it does not hurt me or my choices (as long as they do not in turn hurt others)

A great objective ... if you want christianity to rule your own personal morals and life directions more power to you ... I may not agree but I compleatly support your right to be who you want to be as long as it does not hurt me or my choices (as long as they do not in turn hurt others)
But I would urge you think in such a perspective: you may be annoyed by Christians who try to preach to you, but has it occurred to you that they may just be trying to share what they deem is a great gift with you? Of course, you have the right to reject the proposal, but if everybody treats everybody else with the right amount of respect everybody would be happy.

But I would urge you think in such a perspective: you may be annoyed by Christians who try to preach to you, but has it occurred to you that they may just be trying to share what they deem is a great gift with you? Of course, you have the right to reject the proposal, but if everybody treats everybody else with the right amount of respect everybody would be happy.


I completly agree. If people would just be polite and respectable then things would be a lot better in the world. Not saying that one should just give in to what ever the other person has to say, but don't be just like, 'you are soo retarded for thinking that, omg, how can you say that, that is soo stupid'

It seems that most of the comments on here were more open about their statements, there were the statements that were expected though but its known to happen, so yeah.

What I try to do when I post these things is cause thoughts to be provoked, but also I am doing my own questioning of the world around me. If we all did that a little more often, I think the world would be more enlightened and less war and death.

You say that but from the outside christianity does look like one gigantic placebo effect to give people what they want

I think that often the criticism of Christianity is really more correctly directed towards the dogma that has grown up around the perceived personality of Christ rather than His actual words. The many and varied interpatations of Christ's worlds have, no doubt, filled many books. After two thousand years the spiritual message that Christ has left after His passing remains true and powerful. The social laws well very adequate for the time are unable to meet the current needs of a world that has shrunk into one large neighborhood. This is the reason why God's eternal message is continually renewed through successive Divine Teachers.

But I would urge you think in such a perspective: you may be annoyed by Christians who try to preach to you, but has it occurred to you that they may just be trying to share what they deem is a great gift with you? Of course, you have the right to reject the proposal, but if everybody treats everybody else with the right amount of respect everybody would be happy.
Thats fine ... I do not want to remove their fredom of speach but I have as much right to be annoyed as they do to say their spiel

The have the right to say their piece as I have my right to be anoyed or to criticize what I see ... fredom of speach is a great thing

I think that often the criticism of Christianity is really more correctly directed towards the dogma that has grown up around the perceived personality of Christ rather than His actual words. The many and varied interpatations of Christ's worlds have, no doubt, filled many books. After two thousand years the spiritual message that Christ has left after His passing remains true and powerful. The social laws well very adequate for the time are unable to meet the current needs of a world that has shrunk into one large neighborhood. This is the reason why God's eternal message is continually renewed through successive Divine Teachers.
Who have no more backup then that of the origional book
You have to have faith that god indeed inspired them to keep his message clear

I have claimed this godlike quality in previous threads. Hey, that makes two of us. You can be the Holy Spirit, I can be Jesus. then we just need a third wack-job to be God :p

ME! ME!

Thats fine ... I do not want to remove their fredom of speach but I have as much right to be annoyed as they do to say their spiel

The have the right to say their piece as I have my right to be anoyed or to criticize what I see ... fredom of speach is a great thing

On the other hand, some people could be annoyed by whatever you say. Since we are all annoyed by what others may say, either we stop saying anything or we learn to accept diverse opinions.

LOVE LIVE THE RESPONSIBLE VERSION OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH!

A great objective ... if you want christianity to rule your own personal morals and life directions more power to you ... I may not agree but I compleatly support your right to be who you want to be as long as it does not hurt me or my choices (as long as they do not in turn hurt others)

OO OO I sense a hint of Voltaire!

Just a few question to the Christians here (a little offtopic):

The Bible doesn't lie, right? All inside is true and if one thing isn't - then everything could be put in doubt. Ok.

God is Allmighty, right? He can do absolutely everything if He wants. He has no limits. Ok, then.

God also knows everything before it happens, He knows my sins before I'm even born. Right?



If so, He knew that Satan would rebel against Him, before He even created this world. But He did create it, despite the rebellion and He didn't change a thing. The rebellion started, Satan sinned and was cast away. Ok.

Then God created Adam and Eve. He created them as He wanted them. Not something else, but exactly as they were. He obviously wanted them exactly like that. But they sinned and ate from the forbidden fruit. So, here comes the question: Didn't God knew Adam and Eve would break His orders?* Yes, He did. Why did He let them do it then? Some would say: He gave them free will! But if he was really Allmighty, then He should be able to create them with free will and still not susceptible to sin. He's Allmighty, there's nothing impossible for Him! This would be just a piece of cake for Him! But He didn't! He created Adam and Eve susceptible to sin (and the same with Satan), He knew they would sin and that their descendants would be born with this sin. He knew that millions and billions of people would just go to Hell, because of this, but He didn't do a thing. So, I see two possibilities if He does exist: First, He's not really so Allmighty. He could just be something like f.e. a scientist, making experiments with lesser beings or a game developer, creating great game battles for the other "gods" (something like an advanced version of "Black & White). Allmighty, but in some limits. Or second, He wanted us (and Satan) to sin, so that all this world would be just a little more exciting. Hence, He doesn't really care for all the people condemned to eternal agony in Hell. If He did, He would do something so that we don't sin. He's our Father and parents take responsibility of their kids until they grow up. In the first case the Bible actually lies (God is not Allmighty even for our own standarts), in the second case the Bible lies again (God isn't Love, but a cruel, sadistic deity). If someone could give me other reasonable options: Go ahead! I'm waiting!



* Besides, how could they be responsible for this when they didn't make a difference between good and evil? It's like sending a 2-year old kid into jail for "stealing" a friend's toy! Or sending a dog in jail for "peeing in public" and "disturbing the people"! When they don't understand this is bad, then they're exactly like little kids or animals and thus they cannot be held responsible for their deeds.

so, there I was, sitting down and looking through some stuff, and I stopped and wondered.....what does the word god really mean......

Christians are so very strict at saying there is only one God and such, but then you have to toss out a lot of the old testament to get that statement, and while looking through the new testament you don't really find anything about other gods in it at all, so this is more doctrine then anything else.

The common views on the Holy Trinity are supportive of a multi deity as well, but they cover that up with, one God three aspects, that obviously just keep secrets from each other, "no one knows the time of my return except for my Father, even I don't know" "don't blasphem the holy spirit cause it won't forgive you like I will" "Father if there is any other way this can happen, please lets do it that way, but your will be done"

sounds like doctrine christian God is either nuts or misunderstood.

then verses like Psalm 82, talking about G-d speaking in the assemby to the other gods. hmmm, G-d talking to gods, sounds like he is the leader of the gods. Old testament is filled with stuff like that, and basically the only thing that says there is only one G-d are verses that state, Do not worship other gods because the Lord your G-d is a jealous G-d.

Maybe its just me, but I guess this whole multi-god thing just doesn't make any sense, its like people that read the bible and follow it tend to get confused by the things they don't understand and 'poof' in pops doctrine that doesn't fit.....but they say its divine law.....kinda like that guy Jesus said not to, when he quoted the old prophet saying, "their worship is useless because they make man made laws and hold them as if they are Holy Doctrine"

Oh well, I guess its my multi-faith upbringing that allows me to see the Divine in all religions...

Doesn't teach you to spell though does it?

*snip*

Ever heard of "free will"? That means giving people the choice to rebel against you/sin/whatever.

The Christian Bible shows that there is one God who created everything else. Other gods are not real; they are "simply wood and silver or gold" (somewhere in Isaiah). In the famous challenge to the LORD by Baal-worshippers, all that the Baal worshippers have to do is get Baal to light a fire, and despite chanting, sacrifices and self-mutilation nothing happens. However, the LORD's prophet throws buckets of water on the wood and then calls to God, who causes the wood to burst into enormous flames. (This is somewhere in 1 Kings, I think.)

Other gods are imaginary, and usually are the result of humans idolising things. So in idolising sex, Baal was imagined as a "fertility god". The Philistine god, Dagon, was a war God and when the Philistines stole the ark of the covenant from the Israelites, and stored it in the same room as the statue of Dagon, in the morning, the statue was found on its face in front of the ark!

Nowadays "gods" are very similar idols. So money can be a god, and so can sex, or work, or success, or grades at school, or whatever. Other gods are anything that replace the one true God from his rightful place at the centre of our lives.

God of course won't let this go on for ever; his punishment for our rebellion is death and judgment, and that's why he sent his son, so that whoever believes in him will be forgiven and have eternal life. Check out this link (http://www.matthiasmedia.com.au/2wtl).

Ever heard of "free will"? That means giving people the choice to rebel against you/sin/whatever.
I already said that. But if He was Allmighty, He could make the "free will" be more unsusceptible to sin. Then Adam & Eve wouldn't have sinned, we would all be wandering around in Eden now and nothing interesting would happen. I guess He prefers some "action"...

I already said that. But if He was Allmighty, He could make the "free will" be more unsusceptible to sin. Then Adam & Eve wouldn't have sinned, we would all be wandering around in Eden now and nothing interesting would happen. I guess He prefers some "action"... In which case there could be no true choice between Good and Evil. We would have reduced choice of our own… and you can't actually be "good" unless you consciously make the decision to.

Just a few question to the Christians here (a little offtopic):

The Bible doesn't lie, right? All inside is true and if one thing isn't - then everything could be put in doubt. Ok.

God is Allmighty, right? He can do absolutely everything if He wants. He has no limits. Ok, then.

God also knows everything before it happens, He knows my sins before I'm even born. Right?



If so, He knew that Satan would rebel against Him, before He even created this world. But He did create it, despite the rebellion and He didn't change a thing. The rebellion started, Satan sinned and was cast away. Ok.

Then God created Adam and Eve. He created them as He wanted them. Not something else, but exactly as they were. He obviously wanted them exactly like that. But they sinned and ate from the forbidden fruit. So, here comes the question: Didn't God knew Adam and Eve would break His orders?* Yes, He did. Why did He let them do it then? Some would say: He gave them free will! But if he was really Allmighty, then He should be able to create them with free will and still not susceptible to sin. He's Allmighty, there's nothing impossible for Him! This would be just a piece of cake for Him! But He didn't! He created Adam and Eve susceptible to sin (and the same with Satan), He knew they would sin and that their descendants would be born with this sin. He knew that millions and billions of people would just go to Hell, because of this, but He didn't do a thing. So, I see two possibilities if He does exist: First, He's not really so Allmighty. He could just be something like f.e. a scientist, making experiments with lesser beings or a game developer, creating great game battles for the other "gods" (something like an advanced version of "Black & White). Allmighty, but in some limits. Or second, He wanted us (and Satan) to sin, so that all this world would be just a little more exciting. Hence, He doesn't really care for all the people condemned to eternal agony in Hell. If He did, He would do something so that we don't sin. He's our Father and parents take responsibility of their kids until they grow up. In the first case the Bible actually lies (God is not Allmighty even for our own standarts), in the second case the Bible lies again (God isn't Love, but a cruel, sadistic deity). If someone could give me other reasonable options: Go ahead! I'm waiting!



* Besides, how could they be responsible for this when they didn't make a difference between good and evil? It's like sending a 2-year old kid into jail for "stealing" a friend's toy! Or sending a dog in jail for "peeing in public" and "disturbing the people"! When they don't understand this is bad, then they're exactly like little kids or animals and thus they cannot be held responsible for their deeds.

All right...lets just assume there is a God. He isn’t loving...He isn’t Sadistic. He creates man because he seeks companionship, entertainment, whatever. He creates them so they can do whatever. He doesn’t even consider the possibility that they can sin (in the bible it says that he can force himself to forget things so technically he can also not think of things) He knows they 'can' sin. But he creates in anyway. You must remember that sin isn’t something which causes us to just lose our relationship to God, it actually binds us to do something other that God...This can be whatever...ourselves, the world, in some cases it can be Satan. In Genesis it says that God regrets creating the human race...this is because he now has to send most of them to Hell. God is all-powerful but he cannot do something against who he is. He is also Holy and therefore he cannot accept sinners into his kingdom. He then sends part of who he is, his son...His word, the word which created the universe to his death so that the world can be saved. But of course it is not like him to cheat so he still gives everybody a chance to choose. Most chose wrongly...and is still choosing wrongly. In fact most hate him because they have lost all sense of what is true and good and beautiful in this world. For some reason the existence of God is the most daunting thing in this world. Some people go as far as to force themselves to try to disprove his existence (I say try because u cant disprove God by saying that we were created by aliens millions of years ago, which more and more scientists are turning to because intelligent design is the only way we could come into existence even considering evolution is true). Now u expect God to have mercy on some person who doesn’t just hate him, no much worse, actually denies his existence. (I am not talking about other religions...strictly atheism, if someone wants to discuss 'why Christianity' we should start another thread). This post will probably make most atheists hate christians even more but this is what most of us believe. We understand that some people hvnt heard of God. God knows that and will take this into consideration at judgement day. He knows that some people have a shit life. This is why there are so many christian outreach programs. He knows there is poverty. Do u know that poverty stricken nations is where christianity is growing the fastest. And if u hate Jesus...He sais u can still be saved (in the gospel of Luke). But above all else remember...he still loves u. :D

The Christian Bible shows that there is one God who created everything else. Other gods are not real; they are "simply wood and silver or gold" (somewhere in Isaiah). In the famous challenge to the LORD by Baal-worshippers, all that the Baal worshippers have to do is get Baal to light a fire, and despite chanting, sacrifices and self-mutilation nothing happens. However, the LORD's prophet throws buckets of water on the wood and then calls to God, who causes the wood to burst into enormous flames. (This is somewhere in 1 Kings, I think.)

Other gods are imaginary, and usually are the result of humans idolising things. So in idolising sex, Baal was imagined as a "fertility god". The Philistine god, Dagon, was a war God and when the Philistines stole the ark of the covenant from the Israelites, and stored it in the same room as the statue of Dagon, in the morning, the statue was found on its face in front of the ark!

Nowadays "gods" are very similar idols. So money can be a god, and so can sex, or work, or success, or grades at school, or whatever. Other gods are anything that replace the one true God from his rightful place at the centre of our lives.

God of course won't let this go on for ever; his punishment for our rebellion is death and judgment, and that's why he sent his son, so that whoever believes in him will be forgiven and have eternal life. Check out this link (http://www.matthiasmedia.com.au/2wtl).
You are mistaking symbols of gods for gods. The sacrificed god is no more, or less, the golden calf than Christ is the cross. Symbol identification is a wonderful thing when it's not taken literally.

You are mistaking symbols of gods for gods. The sacrificed god is no more, or less, the golden calf than Christ is the cross. Symbol identification is a wonderful thing when it's not taken literally.
This is a cool post … literally (sorry snl moment)

All right...lets just assume there is a God. He isn’t loving...He isn’t Sadistic. He creates man because he seeks companionship, entertainment, whatever. He creates them so they can do whatever. He doesn’t even consider the possibility that they can sin (in the bible it says that he can force himself to forget things so technically he can also not think of things) He knows they 'can' sin. But he creates in anyway. You must remember that sin isn’t something which causes us to just lose our relationship to God, it actually binds us to do something other that God...This can be whatever...ourselves, the world, in some cases it can be Satan. In Genesis it says that God regrets creating the human race...this is because he now has to send most of them to Hell. God is all-powerful but he cannot do something against who he is. He is also Holy and therefore he cannot accept sinners into his kingdom. He then sends part of who he is, his son...His word, the word which created the universe to his death so that the world can be saved. But of course it is not like him to cheat so he still gives everybody a chance to choose. Most chose wrongly...and is still choosing wrongly. In fact most hate him because they have lost all sense of what is true and good and beautiful in this world. For some reason the existence of God is the most daunting thing in this world. Some people go as far as to force themselves to try to disprove his existence (I say try because u cant disprove God by saying that we were created by aliens millions of years ago, which more and more scientists are turning to because intelligent design is the only way we could come into existence even considering evolution is true). Now u expect God to have mercy on some person who doesn’t just hate him, no much worse, actually denies his existence. (I am not talking about other religions...strictly atheism, if someone wants to discuss 'why Christianity' we should start another thread). This post will probably make most atheists hate christians even more but this is what most of us believe. We understand that some people hvnt heard of God. God knows that and will take this into consideration at judgement day. He knows that some people have a shit life. This is why there are so many christian outreach programs. He knows there is poverty. Do u know that poverty stricken nations is where christianity is growing the fastest. And if u hate Jesus...He sais u can still be saved (in the gospel of Luke). But above all else remember...he still loves u. :D

Yes, but the question is: Why did He allowed the creation of sin in the first place? If He's allpowerful, then He should be able to create a perfect world without sin, with "free will" and He would still be loyal to Himself. I mean, God created everything: stars, planets, angels, animal, plants, humans, the whole Universe, seen and unseen, and everything inside it, right? He created the laws of physics, of mathematics and the laws of human thinking. He created the possiblity for the humans to have a soul, spirit, body, feelings, emotions etc. Well, if He created everything, where did the sin came from? Either He didn't knew angels and humans would sin (not allknowing and thus not allmighty) or He knew, but He let that happen, although He could just destroy sin before it even was "created" (therefore, He is not against sin, which is contradictory to the whole Christianity). If He controls the whole power, sin would have no chance to sneak into his Creation against His will. So, either God is not Allmighty and He couldn't stop (or didn't knew about) the sin in the nearly beginning or He may be Allmighty, but He didn't want to stop sin!

I already said that. But if He was Allmighty, He could make the "free will" be more unsusceptible to sin. Then Adam & Eve wouldn't have sinned, we would all be wandering around in Eden now and nothing interesting would happen. I guess He prefers some "action"...
If we had no choice to be susceptible to sin, we would not be operating under "free will".

Yes, but the question is: Why did He allowed the creation of sin in the first place? If He's allpowerful, then He should be able to create a perfect world without sin, with "free will" and He would still be loyal to Himself. I mean, God created everything: stars, planets, angels, animal, plants, humans, the whole Universe, seen and unseen, and everything inside it, right? He created the laws of physics, of mathematics and the laws of human thinking. He created the possiblity for the humans to have a soul, spirit, body, feelings, emotions etc. Well, if He created everything, where did the sin came from? Either He didn't knew angels and humans would sin (not allknowing and thus not allmighty) or He knew, but He let that happen, although He could just destroy sin before it even was "created" (therefore, He is not against sin, which is contradictory to the whole Christianity). If He controls the whole power, sin would have no chance to sneak into his Creation against His will. So, either God is not Allmighty and He couldn't stop (or didn't knew about) the sin in the nearly beginning or He may be Allmighty, but He didn't want to stop sin!
God did not create what goes on inside us, our thoughts, concepts and feelings. If he did, we would not have "free will."

God created the universe, then he created man "in his image", with a mind of our own.

God did not create what goes on inside us, our thoughts, concepts and feelings. If he did, we would not have "free will."

God created the universe, then he created man "in his image", with a mind of our own.
Well really if he truly created EVERYTHING then he had to make all the possibilities and combinations

They had to originate from somewhere ... (from the Christian viewpoint)

Just a few question to the Christians here (a little offtopic):

The Bible doesn't lie, right? All inside is true and if one thing isn't - then everything could be put in doubt. Ok.

God is Allmighty, right? He can do absolutely everything if He wants. He has no limits. Ok, then.

God also knows everything before it happens, He knows my sins before I'm even born. Right?



If so, He knew that Satan would rebel against Him, before He even created this world. But He did create it, despite the rebellion and He didn't change a thing. The rebellion started, Satan sinned and was cast away. Ok.

Then God created Adam and Eve. He created them as He wanted them. Not something else, but exactly as they were. He obviously wanted them exactly like that. But they sinned and ate from the forbidden fruit. So, here comes the question: Didn't God knew Adam and Eve would break His orders?* Yes, He did. Why did He let them do it then? ...-snip-


The first concept that needs to be established is what is G-d. Most seem to put the entity of G-d into a man like concept, but that is rather a mistaken concept to do. He, and I only use the term to keep from having to say It all the time, wants us to love and everything, but everything that He has, we have, but in a limited way. Just as humans have children, knowing that they may rebel doesn't stop them from having them. Just because they may think different and act different, they are still our creations. We punish them in the youth, but don't go to the steps of brainwashing and changing their minds when they do things that we don't agree with, and we can understand that...

Yet we can't understand why G-d in all his power doesn't just brainwash us into beings that follow what he says, when he says it, do what is right, boring boring boring. The message that I've found repeated in the bible is, Worship and Love your G-d by your choice, not because you have to. Is it love that we would have for him if there was no other option?

I see it this way, G-d set everything up, much like a computer program, defined the roles, and specific rules, like rules of nature and science, and then pushed START. He promised himself that he wouldn't get involved too much, just help things out here and there, but wanted to see where the program would lead. That program is us, sure he has the power to reset everything and change it all, but he Promised himself not to, and thats what binds him. Just as a person who swears on his oath doesn't have to fulfil it, but that doesn't stop people from keeping their oaths.

People try to use man's logic on a being that is not man that doesn't follow man's laws, or ways of thinking. How can you describe something that is never ending with words that are made to describe things exactly. It doesn't work very well. One has to fall into Philosophy and Theology to bring concepts that can compare to the Infinate of the Divine, and even then its only personal concepts of what we each understand the Divine as.

If G-d set the world into motion, setting the 'angels' to do the petty tasks, and the angels were given free will (reflective in how else could Satan rebel, and how could the Watchers fall) then maybe many Angels took it upon themselves to reveal themselves and were taken to be gods.

What is a god exactly? A supernatural being that has power over things that mere mortals don't? A supernatural being that is worshipped?

dictonary.com says this


God
1. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.

seems to me that even the angels meet the definition of god. If the angels can choose to fall, then whats stops them from making themselves gods to the mortals. In one jewish/hebrew belief that I read, there is an angel that is the writer of all gentile religions, that they are inspired by this angel, and that this angel is a messenger of G-d. Doesn't that mean that they are all G-d inspired faiths that all contain the right, we just have to keep from perverting them, as man is sooooooo good at doing?

Well really if he truly created EVERYTHING then he had to make all the possibilities and combinations

They had to originate from somewhere ... (from the Christian viewpoint)
That's the ticket. The concept of "free will" is self-determination, that being the cause of one's own thoughts and actions. Therefore, if God "gave" us free will, he does not create our thoughts and is not responsible for our actions.

Doesn't teach you to spell though does it?

what does spelling have to do with it? I get my points across without spelling everyword perfect, big deal. I'm not spelin like dis at lest.

I don't have perfect spelling, I tend to think larger then my known list of words, and so I write things wrong sometimes. I've had mild dyslexia in my past, and so I never learned how to properly spell out words to the extreme. I get most of them right, but sometimes I don't know how to spell it, so I give my best shot.

What good does a post have that makes a simple post, aimed at merely picking fun at a poster that you view said something that you don't agree with?

Is that what you do to things that you fail to understand, mock it?

Please keep such comments to yourself, it does nothing more then show the ignorance of the world and that statements you are going to make are going to hold an arrogence, because after all, you must be smarter then me because you can spell.

Genisis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

WTF.

For more bible crap go to http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html.

what does spelling have to do with it? I get my points across without spelling everyword perfect, big deal. I'm not spelin like dis at lest.

I don't have perfect spelling, I tend to think larger then my known list of words, and so I write things wrong sometimes. I've had mild dyslexia in my past, and so I never learned how to properly spell out words to the extreme. I get most of them right, but sometimes I don't know how to spell it, so I give my best shot.

What good does a post have that makes a simple post, aimed at merely picking fun at a poster that you view said something that you don't agree with?

Is that what you do to things that you fail to understand, mock it?

Please keep such comments to yourself, it does nothing more then show the ignorance of the world and that statements you are going to make are going to hold an arrogence, because after all, you must be smarter then me because you can spell.
Don't sweat the small stuff.

I, myself, am very pedantic, but wisdom dictates that you can contribute more to the thread by addressing what is said, rather than how it's said.

did anyone know the bible was made a couple of hundred years AFTER jesus was dead.
It was made by orders of emperor constantine of rome.
until then jesus was only a profet.
The bible was not made by god, it was made by people.
people with religion agendas.

did anyone know the bible was made a couple of hundred years AFTER jesus was dead.
It was made by orders of emperor constantine of rome.
until then jesus was only a profet.
The bible was not made by god, it was made by people.
people with religion agendas.


Methinks somebody has never heard of the old testament. Or the various written accounts of the disciples.

Constantine merely collected the various writings together into a unified document.

who says he merily collected them?
did you know the original christian resting day was on a saturday?
but because constantine was a follower of a religion that whorshipped the sun, that day was placed to SUNday.
and that's just one example.

Sorry, but he would. He ate with whores and tax collectors, remember?


THANK YOU. someone here knows the bible well.

who says he merily collected them?
did you know the original christian resting day was on a saturday?
but because constantine was a follower of a religion that whorshipped the sun, that day was placed to SUNday.
and that's just one example.

The day of sabbath observance was changed to reflect the fact that the resurrection occured on Sunday, the day of the Lord.

Constantine changed many things, but this is not one of them.

Genisis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

WTF.

For more bible crap go to http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html.





*cough* HOLY TRINITY. HOLY TRINITY. HOLY TRINITY . as in God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.

*cough* HOLY TRINITY. HOLY TRINITY. HOLY TRINITY . as in God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.
There was no Savior when Genesis was written.

*cough* HOLY TRINITY. HOLY TRINITY. HOLY TRINITY . as in God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.
*cough * Jesus was not born yet *cough*

There was no Savior when Genesis was written.
Wow we think alike :) lol

*cough * Jesus was not born yet *cough*

That doesn't mean he didn't exist. The vicarious sacrifice of Jesus in Gethsemane as redemption for man was from before the beginning. He was destined to come, as were we, to this earth to prove our worth.

That doesn't mean he didn't exist. The vicarious sacrifice of Jesus in Gethsemane as redemption for man was from before the beginning. He was destined to come, as were we, to this earth to prove our worth.
Considering how important his birth is to Christianity, yeah... it does mean that he didn't exist.

Or are you proposing a reincarnation of spirit?

the christian bible itself proves that people should be more loving, caring, and non-judgemental. the problem is that people get arrogent and self loving and then claim themselves the title, Christian, even though the biblical Jesus would never have hung out with most of the 'christians' of this day.
um....ur forgetting Jesus likes to hang out with sinners...so i suppose ur right, Jesus wouldn't hang out with most present day Christians

um....ur forgetting Jesus likes to hang out with sinners...so i suppose ur right, Jesus wouldn't hang out with most present day Christians
So you are saying Christians don’t sin? Wow that’s going against just about every Christian belief about the fallibility of humans

Considering how important his birth is to Christianity, yeah... it does mean that he didn't exist.

Or are you proposing a reincarnation of spirit?

All things existed spiritually before they were "created" temporally. This concept comes from the beliefs I hold that our existence predates birth on earth, as of necessity would Jesus as an inhabitant thereof. God, of course, also existed before the world was. Why is it so foreign to believe that there was anything in the universe before this world was created? Are we so earthprocentric that we refuse to fathom that there is anything of import in the universe besides this pitifully violent planet on which we reside for a brief interval?

I don't understand how many Christians can believe in life after death but don't acknowledge a life before birth.

So you are saying Christians don’t sin? Wow that’s going against just about every Christian belief about the fallibility of humans

I think he is being misunderstood UT. (interesting...UT...)

Christians sin. They are usually aware of it and working on it.

All things existed spiritually before they were "created" temporally. This concept comes from the beliefs I hold that our existence predates birth on earth, as of necessity would Jesus as an inhabitant thereof. God, of course, also existed before the world was. Why is it so foreign to believe that there was anything in the universe before this world was created? Are we so earthprocentric that we refuse to fathom that there is anything of import in the universe besides this pitifully violent planet on which we reside for a brief interval?

I don't understand how many Christians can believe in life after death but don't acknowledge a life before birth.
What you suggest is a very un-Christian belief. Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions place mankind being directly created by God in physical form; God then breathes a soul, or life, into the man, a la Adam. Physical first, then spiritual.

The spirit cannot exist without the flesh until it is "saved", and that happens during a physical lifetime.

What you suggest is a very un-Christian belief. Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions place mankind being directly created by God in physical form; God then breathes a soul, or life, into the man, a la Adam. Physical first, then spiritual.

The spirit cannot exist without the flesh until it is "saved", and that happens during a physical lifetime.

what he was saying doesn't go against anything but doctrine. Though in some christian biblical gospel it says that Jesus was the essance of creation and was there from the beginning.

Another thing to note is the jewish belief that a soul can inhabit a body twice. That sometimes when a person dies the soul can be reborn into another realm one more time to serve certain things, like Elijah to herold in the comming of the Mashiach.

Fits with the idea that Jesus is to come again, but there are many theories about all that, mine aren't important at this time.

their are passages in the bible that state that G-d knew you even before you were born, and that implies that the spirit was there. Adam was made and then the Spirit was breathed into him, and then from that moment on the spirt was added, as in the story of Eve, where she was crafted from Adam, but not the breath, and such.

Though when it comes to spirits and souls and such the bible doesn't get into too many details, and I think thats because their is no way to understand the realm of the spirtual, since its the realm of the living flesh that we are a part of. Maybe in the next transmigration we will understand things better.

Who have no more backup then that of the origional book
You have to have faith that god indeed inspired them to keep his message clear

It is true that each Divine Teacher has no more proof than the previous teacher. The proof, it seems, lies mostly in the message. And those messages remain consistantly the same from age to age, region to region. One can also look at the civilization that grew up around each of the Messengers of God. Each civilization progressively more advanced than the next. The decline of those civilizations does not lie within the message, but rather the pride of humans who changed and corrupted the message. he best example today is in Islam and Christianity. Each shows clearly the decline and the inability to reform itself.