NationStates Jolt Archive

My comments seem to have gone overlooked, so.....
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=425193

Besides the Anti-Semitism in Europe, a number of other things in that article disturb me.
1) These remarks were made by a sociologist - well the sociologist part doesn't surprise me, I'm worried that they and their revisionist agenda are more pervasive in Europe than in the US
2) But I'm even more shocked France has laws against hate speech. Hate speech is something that is politically incorrect. Now France is under the yoke of political correctness to???

Besides the Anti-Semitism in Europe, a number of other things in that article disturb me.
1) These remarks were made by a sociologist - well the sociologist part doesn't surprise me, I'm worried that they and their revisionist agenda are more pervasive in Europe than in the US
2) But I'm even more shocked France has laws against hate speech. Hate speech is something that is politically incorrect. Now France is under the yoke of political correctness to???
Yes... Imagine that...
I'm assuming you're an American, and thus I assume you don't know much about western europe and Scandinavia, in particular when it comes to the mindset of the peoples.
That said, I haven't readt the first thread. You want comments, right?

All of europe have for the last 10 years been turning right. Ok, let's just call it marching right, for the sake of provokation. But unlike Americans, most of us don't use the traditional rightwing rethoric and values. We still pride ourselves in being humane, liberal and have a strong socialist influence. Probably much like most Americans veiw us.
That's not the real state of things anymore. Aparently we've forgot what socialism and solidarity is. We've also forgot what conservativism is. Because despite us still proclaiming ourselves progressive, free and socially minded societies, we're neoliberals. The racist and/or (usually and) nationalist parties are gaining a stronger and stronger following. The traditional working class parties are persuing neoliberal agendas and the ones still clinging to traditional right/left-wing policies are loosing voters by the truckload, to both neoliberals and nationalists. You could say fascism is blooming. It's not entirely correct, but it's not altogether wrong either.

Traditionally people in europe hate Jews. Actually we're more hypocritical about it, so we don't hate Jews, we just hate everything they do and ever have done. Otherwise we'd be racist, and we reserve that for people who're not from western europe (generelly speaking that is - for instance, a lot of EU citizens dread people from the baltic countries and Poland, but we don't hate people from Finland).

Now add to this all our lovely past of bloody, fascist, nationalist, racist mayhem. A history we're not officially proud of (but increasingly many are). Now take the european media's treatment of the state of Isreal. We more or less sold the place to the Zionists (whom we hated and wanted to be rid of). Then we supported them in every way (ok, mostly verbally) untill a couple of things started to happen. One was the '67 war. Especially because of US involvement, our politicians and public opinion (who back then were borderline commies a lot of places) proclaimed how evil you all were. Poor Egypt. Poor Palestinians. Lovely mercifull Egypts for making (prison) camps for the poor Palestinians (let's just forget the fact they'd rather shoot them than let them inside Egypt). This was sensational stuff for the press. But our peoples in general was not swayed. Too many remembered WWII I suppose...

So ever since, it's been a combination of hating Israel because it's convenient, because someone has to bee the bad guy (and US stopped being the bad guy when the hippies had children), because it's in keeping with our age-old tradition of hating Jews, because it's easy to symphatise with the underdog, because Israel have no voice outside US (they're completely ignored in the UN)... It's just not very strange. Perfectly horrible, but really not very strange.
BEsides, it's juicy stuff. And traditional lefties cling to the underdog. Just like everyone else does in this case, because noone likes Jews.

If this little, semi-coherrent, rant makes you feel like giving some europeans a good beating, drop me a PM so we can arrange something. I'd love to beat up some of them as well. Maybe we can catch some of our leaders and have them tried before the international court :)

My comments seem to have gone overlooked, so.....
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=425193

Besides the Anti-Semitism in Europe, a number of other things in that article disturb me.
1) These remarks were made by a sociologist - well the sociologist part doesn't surprise me, I'm worried that they and their revisionist agenda are more pervasive in Europe than in the US.

Are you suggesting that all sociologists have a revisionist agenda? That's like saying all scientists want to prove the existence of god.

1) These remarks were made by a sociologist - well the sociologist part doesn't surprise me, I'm worried that they and their revisionist agenda are more pervasive in Europe than in the US

And what agenda is this?

About your Freedom of Speech suprise...

As far as I know, all the european countries has limits on it's freedom of speech.
To give you a couple of examples of how it works...

I hate all black people - That statement is actually ok. I generalize, but it's my own personal opinion and it doesn't threaten anyone or use offensive language. If I'd said niggers instead of black people, I'd be in trouble in most places... Because that's offensive.

People from nonexististan are a bunch of rotten thieves and murderers. They steal anything not bolted down. They screw our women and steal our jobs. Even the police confirms it - That statement would most definitly be illegal, especially in a news media or if it's otherwise presented as factual and unbiased.

But it's a rule with execptions. Some places (not France though) noone will stop you from spreading racist lies as long as you don't subject people to it who might take offence, or present it as factual and unbiased. If I published the above where I am and replaced nonexististan with.. Hmm... Sudan or something - or Israel - it would be my priveledge to do so. If I were a journalist and made the same claim in a news article, I'd probably end up on probation.

As you might have realized, it's not so much that our freedom of speech is limited, it's more that we have laws protecting eachother from slanderous and racist claims. As well as laws against instigating such behaviour. 2 policemen were discharged and fined last year for distributing nazi propaganda in a predominantly non-white neighbourhood.

And what agenda is this?
I have issues with sociologists and ethnic studies professors for the excess amount of political correctness concerning history they spew out.

My comments seem to have gone overlooked, so.....
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=425193

Besides the Anti-Semitism in Europe, a number of other things in that article disturb me.
1) These remarks were made by a sociologist - well the sociologist part doesn't surprise me, I'm worried that they and their revisionist agenda are more pervasive in Europe than in the US
2) But I'm even more shocked France has laws against hate speech. Hate speech is something that is politically incorrect. Now France is under the yoke of political correctness to???


1) uhh.. What agenda do Sociologists have? Don't tell me that now there is a huge worldwide conspiracy of Sociologists to take over the world..

2) Oh don't worry about that. The French basically made entire laws that implicitly targeted muslims and everyone knew about it, they aren't much on the "pleasing the minorities" thing.

And it's not just in France. In Holland they are making very similar laws too. Its our way of fighting Islamic extremism.. taking away their ability to be extremist.

Actually we're more hypocritical about it, so we don't hate Jews, we just hate everything they do and ever have done. Otherwise we'd be racist, and we reserve that for people who're not from western europe
Yes, it's that hypocrisy that concerns me. I don't like people trying to mask racism under guises like those, and political correctness.

If this little, semi-coherrent, rant makes you feel like giving some europeans a good beating, drop me a PM so we can arrange something.
Nah, I don't think I'm in that type of mood - though your rant seems to clear a lot of stuff up.

As you might have realized, it's not so much that our freedom of speech is limited, it's more that we have laws protecting eachother from slanderous and racist claims.
Actually, I have nothing against slander protection laws - what I don't like is when they're applied exclusively to ethnic minorities

I have issues with sociologists and ethnic studies professors for the excess amount of political correctness concerning history they spew out.

Sociology covers a wide range of viewpoints, theories and ideas. It isn't like a political affiliation, two sociologists can have entirely conflicting views. Personally, I've never met a sociology teacher like that, nor have I seen anything of the kind in my textbooks.

I think what is more worrying is that one cannot express contempt for the nation and its policy, without someone (ironically, probably a closet anti-semite) pointing a finger and screaming anti-semitism.

One can make a case against the South African government's denials of HIV without a horde of well-funded lobbyists pointing the finger and accusing you of hating blacks and wishing for the return of apartheid.

And yet, criticise some aspect of Israeli politics, such as the construction of the wall, and suddenly you're an anti-semite, disguising your irrational hatred as legitimate-sounding debate. WTF? We are supposed to accept that Israel is somehow unique and no criticism of the state can be made independently of criticism of the race if its people?

For this reason, I refuse to take the whole issue of anti-semitism seriously. There is so much crying of wolf in the media, I have got fed up of the whole subject.

I think what is more worrying is that one cannot express contempt for the nation and its policy, without someone (ironically, probably a closet anti-semite) pointing a finger and screaming anti-semitism.

One can make a case against the South African government's denials of HIV without a horde of well-funded lobbyists pointing the finger and accusing you of hating blacks and wishing for the return of apartheid.

And yet, criticise some aspect of Israeli politics, such as the construction of the wall, and suddenly you're an anti-semite, disguising your irrational hatred as legitimate-sounding debate. WTF? We are supposed to accept that Israel is somehow unique and no criticism of the state can be made independently of criticism of the race if its people?

For this reason, I refuse to take the whole issue of anti-semitism seriously. There is so much crying of wolf in the media, I have got fed up of the whole subject.
There is far more crying wolf on the other side. Pre-emptive crying foul has, in my opinion, been far more common among the anti-Israeli crowd, who have been trying to suppress anyone suggesting that their motives just might be less than legitimate.

Seriously, is it really that uncommon that a devoted anti-Zionist turns out to be an equally devoted Jew hater? While it is, of course, theoretically possible to be anti-Israel without being anti-Jewish (although one could make a case to the contrary)- how many actually manage to never slip over the line? Why is it that every single "progressive anti-Zionist" at the Counterpunch continues to favorably quote and reference the certified anti-Semite Israel "Jews only exist to drip Palestinian blood into their matza" Shamir? Why does the anti-Israeli left continue to respect and revere an overzealous Christian convert Gilad "Israel should apologize for killing Jesus" Atzmon? How come the initiator of the British AUT boycott of Israel Sue Blackwell had links to neo-Nazi websites on her home page? It's a plague, TG, not isolated incidents. I've seen people whom I would never suspect of harboring any conscious anti-Jewish sentiment subscribing to the most outrageous anti-Semitic stereotypes without even realizing it. Why, just recently an otherwise reasonable woman whom I've known for months suggested to me that the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion "may well be authentic". :rolleyes:

Last time I was in the US, I saw that the Aryan nation and other rightwingers led the debate much more then in Europe where such movements are forbidden.
Case closed!

My comments seem to have gone overlooked, so.....
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=425193

Besides the Anti-Semitism in Europe, a number of other things in that article disturb me.
1) These remarks were made by a sociologist - well the sociologist part doesn't surprise me, I'm worried that they and their revisionist agenda are more pervasive in Europe than in the US
2) But I'm even more shocked France has laws against hate speech. Hate speech is something that is politically incorrect. Now France is under the yoke of political correctness to???

Besides your anti EU agenda and your revisionist agenda on about everything, it must be hard to compare the rabiate anti semitisme in the US with political critiscisme of people on Israel, even not, that but on the right wing Zionist movement in the EU.

2) Yeah France, the country where the least % of jews (with Belgium) where transported in the war, compared to Holland wich was the biggest collaborator in the transports (but sold its storry and lies better afterwards) of its own and German refugee Jews (Annna Frank, threasoned by Dutch).
Jews in EU normally find the life in France the best and surely better protected then in the US.

2) Yeah France, the country where the least % of jews (with Belgium) where transported in the war, compared to Holland wich was the biggest collaborator in the transports (but sold its storry and lies better afterwards) of its own and German refugee Jews (Annna Frank, threasoned by Dutch).
Jews in EU normally find the life in France the best and surely better protected then in the US.
I could barely read this post.

Additionally, Jews in France do not like it better there than in the United States. I'm speaking from numerous first-hand accounts I've read and received from former American Jews living in France, who are thinking about leaving because the attitude is intolerable.

1) These remarks were made by a sociologist - well the sociologist part doesn't surprise me, I'm worried that they and their revisionist agenda are more pervasive in Europe than in the US

By the way, it states in the article that Mr Morin (the sociologist in question) is a jew:

> It is encouraging to see a French court rule that anti-Semitism
> should have no place in the media -- even when it is masked as an
> analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The ruling also makes
> it clear that the law in this respect applies to extremist Jews (Mr.
> Morin is Jewish) as much as to non-Jews.

There really isn't much ground to be gained in picking our way back over European history to decide who is and isn't anti-semitic today. At one time or another in the last 500 years, every European country has led pogroms against their Jewish population, and expelled large percentages of it. The factors that link these events are simple; hardship for the general population and racist politicians (or previously church leaders) who wish to manipulate the situation to their personal benefit. How did they do this? By reintroducing ancient lies and rumours about Jews to the general public, e.g. Jews drinking Christian blood as part of the Passover ceremony. Interestingly, the Nazis spread the same lies in Palestine in the early '40s helping ferment some of the current hatred.

The BNP in the UK uses a similar tactic in areas with large Islamic populations, and both Blair and Bush could be accused (to some extent) of using watered down versions of "crusade paranoia" to justify the second Gulf War.

What's the best way to combat people with these extremist beliefs? To disrupt their activities by a) highlighting for what they really are (racial hatred) and b) put consequences to their actions if they choose to continue to disseminate such lies (prison sentences).

The anti-racial hatred laws introduced in most European countries therefore increase personal freedom for all groups in society, and other nations would do well to follow suit.

I have issues with sociologists and ethnic studies professors for the excess amount of political correctness concerning history they spew out.

Do you have any examples?

Maybe this is just an American thing. But as a History student at a descent British uni, I haven't come across any huge amounts of political correctness.

Though maybe that is just the periods I'm studying.

Last time I was in the US, I saw that the Aryan nation and other rightwingers led the debate much more then in Europe where such movements are forbidden.
Case closed!

Well put Via! This explains enough, such anti semite movements are only legal in the US. But I must say that the US is perhaps the most anti muslim nation in the world.Remember the muslims that were jailed witiouth form of trial and on illegal grounds after 9/11 during months in the US. Muslims in the US also complain about the daily racist attitude of the police and a different threatement (much harder) by it.

Last time I was in the US, I saw that the Aryan nation and other rightwingers led the debate much more then in Europe where such movements are forbidden.
Case closed!

Unlike Europe, we know where the racist (censored, very bad word) are. we know who they are. They don't hold any credibility in serious conversations here, because we know who they are, and what they stand for.
Freedom to make an arse of oneself is a much better protective mechanism against that kind of movement-because we can spot them immediately as what they are. This makes it much easier to prevent theim from doing what they wish under cover of something else.

It also makes it easier to arrest their shithead little (skinhead) disciples when they torch a church, instead of having to wonder who did it.

This is quite unlike Continental Europe, where the scumbags are learning to mask their hatreds in innocuous language and harmless appearances. Most Americans (Perhaps unlike yourself) have little interest in the racist rantings of a vocal fringe hate-group. We know better.

Well put Via! This explains enough, such anti semite movements are only legal in the US. But I must say that the US is perhaps the most anti muslim nation in the world.Remember the muslims that were jailed witiouth form of trial and on illegal grounds after 9/11 during months in the US. Muslims in the US also complain about the daily racist attitude of the police and a different threatement (much harder) by it.


Oh, and "Bushrepublicanliars", I would deeply appreciate a cite for that assertion, as I work currently with a number of first-generation immigrant Muslims and they don't seem to know what you're talking about. I suspect you're repeating something from a radical left blog, or somesuch thing, but if I'm wrong, please demonstrate...

Unlike Europe, we know where the racist (censored, very bad word) are....
This is quite unlike Continental Europe, where the scumbags are learning to mask their hatreds in innocuous language and harmless appearances....


What are you talking about?
I could almost get offended, but I'll leave that for another day.

What are you talking about?
I could almost get offended, but I'll leave that for another day.
Banning the mention of a word, or the articulation of an idea, does not destroy that idea. Those who propogate such ideas will simply find "Non-Banned" words and expressions with which to further their agendas. Generally, it's a mutation that exceeds the authorities' ability to react with new bans. In other words, by limiting speech, you don't kill racism-you just encourage it to develop new, more virulent, ways to propogate. Kind of like not-using-enough-antibiotic, the disease becomes resistant to the treatment.

On the other hand, exposure to the disease in limited quantities tends (with most sicknesses) to encourage the body to develop a robust immunity.

Anti-Semitism and Racism are diseases, the body is the body politic. The immune response, is the skepticism of the voters and citizens. People with no exposure to this kind of hate may grow to believe it does not exist in their environment, and thus, render themselves vulnerable to a sugar-coated form of it.
Just because a thing is hidden, or forbidden, does not mean it does not exist.
It simply becomes harder to control in the places where it DOES exist.

Letting a fool speak assures you that he is, in fact, a fool. you have warning that he is there, you can take steps to insure he doesn't gain any kind of real authority, because you're 'vaccinated' against his particular brand of foolishness.

Now... "Speech Codes" encourage fools to find other, more devious ways, to get their message out and recruit new followers, it encourages them to find alternate means to sway the public-a public that is less immune to their particular brand of illness/poison, since said public does not believe it really exists, or can really harm them.

Do you understand my previous comment now?

-snip-
But why do you assume there is some sort of racist, anti-semitic undercurrent in Europe? In my 16 years there, the only racists I have seen were Skinheads and a guy who used to be a white land owner in Namibia (and that guy freaked me out).
I must say that I have met a good more racist ideas here in Australia than in Germany.

But why do you assume there is some sort of racist, anti-semitic undercurrent in Europe? In my 16 years there, the only racists I have seen were Skinheads and a guy who used to be a white land owner in Namibia (and that guy freaked me out).
I must say that I have met a good more racist ideas here in Australia than in Germany.

What does the term "Anti-Zionism" mean to you? Why did the EU constitution fail? (separate issues, examine each closely).

Why was that Van Gogh fellow murdered?

How is the BNP gaining followers?

What is the basis of the European hostility to Israel?

Racism does not have to be overt to be extensive or common. the most dangerous forms look harmless at the surface.

What does the term "Anti-Zionism" mean to you? .

anti what?


Why was that Van Gogh fellow murdered?

he was an artist.. :D



How is the BNP gaining followers?

foot ball and yob culture



What is the basis of the European hostility to Israel?

They know! >.> <.<

What does the term "Anti-Zionism" mean to you? Why did the EU constitution fail? (separate issues, examine each closely).

Why was that Van Gogh fellow murdered?

How is the BNP gaining followers?

What is the basis of the European hostility to Israel?

Racism does not have to be overt to be extensive or common. the most dangerous forms look harmless at the surface.

1. Ahem, no idea. Zionism was a peaceful idea I principally agree with. Today's Israel (in fact 1948's Israel) is nothing like the state Zionists had hoped for.
The EU-constitution failed because the people who voted:
-disagreed with some of the more libertarian pro-market policies introduced by their leaders.
-people were scared their jobs would be taken by cheaper labour from Eastern Europe.
-It was poorly presented to the masses, and very impersonal.
I personally agreed with the Constitution.

2. Because he made a movie about Islam, criticising it and showing a naked muslim woman. There'd have been plenty of offended people.

3. Blaiming immigrants for problems. The Brits are a strange bunch. They still make a difference between themselves and "the continent". Not that that is any different from the Dutch or the Austrians.

4. Now I know what you're aiming at, but that is ridiculous.
a) Not all of Europe is against Israel. Most of it isn't.
b) Donating money to the PA is opposition to Israel, is it?
c) If you look at the "Butcher of Baghdad" Thread, I have talked much about Israel there. It's hardly like Israel was a peaceful country, before or after 1948. It always takes two to tango.
Get over it, disagreeing with a "greater Israel" is not anti-semitism. Classing Palestinians as terrorists and condoning what are gross violations of human rights is much more like racism.
-------------------------------
So you are saying that when Americans are being racist or anti-semitic, you know what they are and that makes them disappear, yet we are somehow incapable of seeing or knowing that we are all secret Nazis, is that it?

What does the term "Anti-Zionism" mean to you? Why did the EU constitution fail? (separate issues, examine each closely).

Why was that Van Gogh fellow murdered?

How is the BNP gaining followers?

What is the basis of the European hostility to Israel?

Racism does not have to be overt to be extensive or common. the most dangerous forms look harmless at the surface.

a) Anti-Zionism = Being against Zionist policies (Zionism is in itself a form of racism), so being anti zionist equals to be anti racist.

b) The EU constitution failed in France and Holland among other reasons, fear of the invasion by Turkish immigrants. Muslim Turkish immigrants. 10% of the French Population in muslim, they are having problems with islamic fanatism, and they are scared that such population might grow.

c) Van gogh was assassinated by a muslim extremist because he made a movie critizing Muslims.

d) In times of economical hardship and incertainty, the extremes always gain weight.

e) Europe is not hostile to Israel. We are balanced towards both Israel and Palestinians. We condemn both sides, we believe that both sides have a right to live in peace. I'd like you to show me one policy of any European State or of the Union that is descriminatory towards Israel. Sure, we give alot of money to the Palestinian authority, but since Israel has shut down the Palestinian economy (do i need to go through this?) they really need the money, its a question of balancing things out.


To your final comments.. well, first of all, acusations of Anti-Semitism are ridiculous at best. I mean, you could make a better case on accusations of Europe being Anti-Muslim, but in every action, Europe as done much to protect Jews. The French laws that implicitly targeted Muslim practices (such as the banning of use of religious symbols in public ground, that everyone with a brain knew that were aimed primarly at muslims, that have the most proiminent symbols of religion) were aimed after Synagogs were attacked in France. Anti-Semitic? What the hell??? I think tactical grace said it best: You people are just dying to attack Europe. And you don't even have a good aim.

YES! We do have racism and racists amongst us. But racism takes many forms, all childreen of hatred and ignorance. There are white racists, that hate those that are different, but there are muslim racists out here too. There is no denial of such racism, but there are attempts to stamp it out, in the forms of progressive and active legislation being passed in Holland and France (both hard hit by islamic fanatism). White racist groups have long been targeted out here, and at least their most fanatical sects have been eliminated. And yes, we know that Le Pen, Pimp Fortyum and the likes are racists. But in democracy, we have to tolerate such people, and if they are educated, and respectful, there is no basis to attack them.

But again, and to the topic: ANTI SEMITISM? ARE YOU NUTS? WE FUCKING WIPED OUT JEWS IN EUROPE, THERE ARENT ENOUGH OF THEM TO JUSTIFY US BEING RACIST TOWARDS THEM!!!!!!

" The Brits are a strange bunch. They still make a difference between themselves and "the continent". Not that that is any different from the Dutch or the Austrians."


OK (random person( or something like that)

we shall continue to make a difference between our selves and the continent regardless of your petty winging

:mp5: In above article (by blackbladder(or something like that))

1. Anti-zioism is not wanting Isreal to exist, not to encourage jews to live there, and not wanting to protect the jews living there.
2. In the last article what was that all about?!?
3. Do you live in europe? beause if you do...
4. This is the kind of ignorance that Cadilliac-gage was talking about. They ban the outright words so thay come up with new ones that aren't banned

I read one article about a planned community in Israel, where the families houses were laid out as Israeli, Palestinian, I, P, I, P, etc.
The Palestinians didn't suicide bomb their neighbours. The Israelis didn't shoot Palestinian children. These people are perfectly capable of getting along, yet the Israeli government has an avowed policy of Apartheid.
So Europeans say that the leaders of Israel are racist thugs and suddenly we are bigots. Well, that is why Europeans are just not interested when yet another pro Israeli racism (no flaming, no flaming) individual blathers about us.
We don't care what you say, both sides are behaving in an uncivilised fashion, but the Israeli administration is a democratically elected government terrorising a civilian population because of an unelected terrorist group! They are more responsible and they will be held to a higher standard!
Finally, consider what would have happened if the UK had behaved in NI the same way as the Israelis behave in Palestine.

i'm already fed up with semitism, anti-semitism, holocaust and all this. It was 60-70 years ago, and not only them were killed... also gipsies, russians, thieves, homosexuals. They are the only to make a lot of money and power out of it. Don't we have other matters to talk about?

and we shall continue to do so...wether you like it or not
Hell, I don't really care. All I want is for the UK to make up its' mind. Either you want to be part of the EU, then you have to help, or not, and then it's best the UK leaves the political process. They can keep the FTA, but public opinion in the UK seems to be so anti-european, it really isn't helping anyone.

i'm already fed up with semitism, anti-semitism, holocaust and all this. It was 50 years ago, and not only them were killed... also gipsies, russians, thieves, homosexuals. They are the only to make a lot of money and power out of it. Don't we have other matters to talk about?


...more like 60...

Hell, I don't really care. All I want is for the UK to make up its' mind. Either you want to be part of the EU, then you have to help, or not, and then it's best the UK leaves the political process. They can keep the FTA, but public opinion in the UK seems to be so anti-european, it really isn't helping anyone.


we can be part of the EU and still not class ourselves as part of the physical land mass across the channel....anyway why the fuck do you want us to make up our mind?....what does it matter to you?....and true enough, there is lots of anti-european opinion in the UK..what do you want me to do about it?....hmm?...Excuse me as i ready my car and pro-european banner...

:mp5: to bushrepublicanliars

HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF I CALLED SOME MUSLIM AND SAID ID PAY HIS A THOUSAND DOLLARS IF BOMBED WHERE_EVER YOU LIVE YOU FUCKING LITTLE BASTARD!!!

what does it matter to you?....and true enough, there is lots of anti-european opinion in the UK..what do you want me to do about it?....hmm?...Excuse me as i ready my car and pro-european banner...

Hey hey, sorry, no need to get offended.
It only matters now because Blair disallowed the referendum to go ahead, and little things, like fishing regulations and those grants that came from the time when the UK had economic troubles. Recently they were supposed to be discontinued and the British officials got all excited. Wasn't pretty.

And why not? Politics starts at a grass roots level they always say. If you can get 5 of your friends to be pro-EU in everything they do, and each of them keeps convincing others, there's one less problem with the Union.
Same goes for the French, the Dutch and all the other ones...

Anti-semitism is really anti-Judaism (see Prager/Telushkin - Why the Jews?: The Reason for Anti-Semitism). Perversely it was Hitler who was the only honest voice on this issue that I have ever read. In Mein Kampf he wrote:

"In nature, there is no pity for the lesser creatures when they are destroyed, sothat the fittest may survive. Going against nature brings ruin to man. It is only Jewish impudence to demand that we overcome nature...it is true we are barbarians. That is an honourable title to us....Free humanity from the shackles of the soul, from the degrading suffering caused by the false vision called conscience and ethics. The Jews have inflicted two wounds on mankind: circumscion on its body and conscience on it soul. They are Jewish inventions. The war for domination of the world is waged only between the two of us, between these two camps, the Germans and the Jews. Everything else is but deception".

Yes, yes, yes. This war is the great war of human history. It is the battle between the animal and the angel in man. It is about time we Europeans, as spiritual and cultural semites, began to acknowledge our debt to the Jews and declare solidarity with Israel in its attempts to find a peaceful solution the middle east problem.

I have issues with sociologists and ethnic studies professors for the excess amount of political correctness concerning history they spew out.

Lucky for me I'm a historian, then. :p

But hey, have more faith. Many sociologists and ethnicists (and historians/anthropologists) actually do very good work, but sadly enought it's mostly not those ones that get quoted in the newspaper. There are still a lot of scientists out there that "spew forth" BS to be quoted and earn more money (and populistic adoration). But there are a LOT MORE that really take their job seriously. Like me. ;)

Oh, and "Bushrepublicanliars", I would deeply appreciate a cite for that assertion, as I work currently with a number of first-generation immigrant Muslims and they don't seem to know what you're talking about. I suspect you're repeating something from a radical left blog, or somesuch thing, but if I'm wrong, please demonstrate...


Guess you were to young in 2001 orin a cave to have missed that. Just read some Human Right Watch or Amnesty reports about it.It is full of it.
BTW, since you live in a cave or only regard FOX, I can understand that you are unaware of all the rascisme or attrocities towards muslims. But I understand that a US right wing extremist that embrasses fin a radical and uncritical way it's fascist regime is unaware and wants to stay it.

BTW the shit that happens today in with prisonars in Afghanistan and Iraq is also fantasy? or "isolated", it is a system and we all know it. Grow up.

:mp5: to bushrepublicanliars

HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF I CALLED SOME MUSLIM AND SAID ID PAY HIS A THOUSAND DOLLARS IF BOMBED WHERE_EVER YOU LIVE YOU FUCKING LITTLE BASTARD!!!
Yes Adolf Hitler, tell him please :p
And now go back to your mums breast, :upyours:

:mp5: to bushrepublicanliars

HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF I CALLED SOME MUSLIM AND SAID ID PAY HIS A THOUSAND DOLLARS IF BOMBED WHERE_EVER YOU LIVE YOU FUCKING LITTLE BASTARD!!!
I would really like it if you could communicate in full sentences that actually make sense. Or stfu otherwise.

Hm, according to some i should be antisemitic to the core, being european (thus antisemitic by tradition, we get it with the mothers milk), skinhead (if your mental image shows you a bomberjacket-clad, bootstomping guy with a baseball-bat, think again) and not in favour of the current israeli politics. Strange thing is that i am being fiercely anti-racist, a firm democrat, left leaning and have jewish friends and clients, some of which find Germany, of all the countries, a more free and agreeable place to live than Israel. Must be because they are antisemitic, too, right?
No one accuses me of being antisinoitic if i say that the chinese government isnt exactly made up of the finest specimen of humans. But if i dare to remind people that arabs are indeed second-class citizen in Israel, that the wall the israeli government is so fond of does not hinder terrorists but makes commuting from the palestine area to Israel for work (which is important to the rather non-existent palestine economy) extremly hard to impossible and that the IDF and israeli police routinely ignore basic human rights, then i have to be an intifada-apolegetic and a jew-hater by default.
Jews are people like anyone else, so they have the same flaws. I acknowledge the horrible wrongdoings my countrymen committed, but that doesnt mean i give jews special treatment. It just seems to be that europeans and germans are no longer entitled to their own point of view in regards to Israel, because we are considered to be antisemitic no matter what. Gee, i wonder who is being racist now.

Guess you were to young in 2001 orin a cave to have missed that. Just read some Human Right Watch or Amnesty reports about it.It is full of it.
BTW, since you live in a cave or only regard FOX, I can understand that you are unaware of all the rascisme or attrocities towards muslims. But I understand that a US right wing extremist that embrasses fin a radical and uncritical way it's fascist regime is unaware and wants to stay it.

BTW the shit that happens today in with prisonars in Afghanistan and Iraq is also fantasy? or "isolated", it is a system and we all know it. Grow up.

Adjust your tinfoil There were allegations, but no supporting evidence. Further, I Was referring to 2001. So far as I am aware (after asking around) there was concern that it would happen among the Muslim community out this way, but it didn't.
You're treating rumour and hyperbole as iron-clad facts.
As for your handwringing over the POW situation, Soldiers are not police, they don't work under the same rules, the bulk of the prisoners were armed combatants, they don't exist under the same rules as civilians...

(hollocaust) was 60-70 years ago, and not only them were killed... also gipsies, russians, thieves, homosexuals. They are (jews) the only to make a lot of money and power out of it?because the Jewish lobby Pwns the US media.

thats why.

because the Jewish lobby Pwns the US media.

thats why.

Wow, that single-sentence answer just makes it all better, right??
Schmuck. :rolleyes:

Wow, that single-sentence answer just makes it all better, right??My answer is oversimplified...

but...do you have another answer for Micutu,s question?...do you?

(hollocaust) was 60-70 years ago, and not only them were killed... also gipsies, russians, thieves, homosexuals. They are (jews) the only to make a lot of money and power out of it?

Hm, according to some i should be antisemitic to the core, being european (thus antisemitic by tradition, we get it with the mothers milk), skinhead (if your mental image shows you a bomberjacket-clad, bootstomping guy with a baseball-bat, think again) and not in favour of the current israeli politics. Strange thing is that i am being fiercely anti-racist, a firm democrat, left leaning and have jewish friends and clients, some of which find Germany, of all the countries, a more free and agreeable place to live than Israel. Must be because they are antisemitic, too, right?
No one accuses me of being antisinoitic if i say that the chinese government isnt exactly made up of the finest specimen of humans. But if i dare to remind people that arabs are indeed second-class citizen in Israel, that the wall the israeli government is so fond of does not hinder terrorists but makes commuting from the palestine area to Israel for work (which is important to the rather non-existent palestine economy) extremly hard to impossible and that the IDF and israeli police routinely ignore basic human rights, then i have to be an intifada-apolegetic and a jew-hater by default.
Jews are people like anyone else, so they have the same flaws. I acknowledge the horrible wrongdoings my countrymen committed, but that doesnt mean i give jews special treatment. It just seems to be that europeans and germans are no longer entitled to their own point of view in regards to Israel, because we are considered to be antisemitic no matter what. Gee, i wonder who is being racist now.


No, you make good points with most of that. The problem being, that Anti-Semites will take your good points, and use them to justify bad things. Israel as a country is a tiny strip of land crowded against the mediterranean on one side, and enemies that have been trying to erase it since...1948, on the other.
The Palestinians' problem is that they have been both victims, and pawns in this, and the people using them as pawns get a 'pass' from the International Community on the whole (including much of Europe) for keeping a nation created by United Nations Fiat under constant siege.
As far as I can recall, the only national neighbour that recognizes Israel as a sovereign nation, is Egypt-and that got the Egyptian President Anwar Sadat assassinated. IIRC, the creation of the Palestinian Authority was supposed to curb Terrorist activities. Like the Munich Agreement (the "Peace of Paper") this did not happen. One side breaks an agreement, the agreement is void.

If you're going to condemn someone for human-rights violations, it's best to use the same standard across-the-board. Holding one nation up to a higher standard than the others around it, is hypocrisy.
Judging Israel as a Western Democracy, and then shifting standards in relation to, say, Syria or Iran, is suspicious as hell. it reflects either a "They're just wogs" form of racist bias, or, it hints at other, subconsciuos, motives.

Considering the treatment of another group, one that lacks a strong US based economic and political base (The Rom, or Gypsies), who also suffered the Holocaust in huge numbers and are still getting the short-end... well, that's a tangent, isn't it? if you remove all considerations of race, you will still have something akin to it floating in society. The concept of 'group rights' and 'group crimes' are closely linked, and form the basis for the soft-core racism I was referring to in my original post, that, and creating an environment where the blame-game requires a crafty tongue simply means that you're dealing with a more insidious opponent, instead of having the scumbags show themselves, you end up having to look, but not trust.

i'm already fed up with semitism, anti-semitism, holocaust and all this. It was 50 years ago, and not only them were killed... also gipsies, russians, thieves, homosexuals. They are the only to make a lot of money and power out of it. Don't we have other matters to talk about?
"I'm tired of hearing about blacks, racism, slavery, and all that. It was a while ago, and they also hurt Asians in California. Blacks only stand to benefit from affirmative action. Do we have other things to talk about?"

Do you like the way that sounds? I don't either. The cases are identical, just in different places. There's still racism in the United States. Not many people argue that. Then why do people continue to dispute that Jews are still persecuted around the world? Virtually every week there's another synagogue firebombed, another hate-inspired murder, another grave defamed with a swastika. And yet people say "The Jews have already been hurt. It's not like they can be hurt again." Let's say you had said that in 1925, a similar timespan between the pogroms in Russia and then and the Holocaust in now (perhaps a little sooner then). To your tortured logic, that statement would have made as much sense. But guess what? In less than a decade and a half, the Holocaust began. And the world shut its collective eyes. You need to open yours.

By the way, your last line is disgusting. Like Jews whose entire families were murdered only want money because of it :rolleyes:. A lot of people are even still dealing with the grief.

Oh, and OceanDrive, you continue to sicken me. First you post links to a website which advertises Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and then insinuate that the Jews control the media. If that was true, then there would be a hell of a lot less pro-Palestinian major newspapers. And Christian(e?) Amanpour would be out of a job (she's seen as biased against Israel to many). And NPR's coverage of Israel would change. The list goes on.

Logically, why would lobbies control newspapers or TV Channels? That makes zero sense.

to bushrpublicanliars,

Are you american?

bacause if you are, you should should no that almost every single terrorist attack and suicide bombing are carried out in the name of allah.
I dont want to have trouble with Muslums over here in america i was specifffically talking about muslums in the middle east. in fact muslums here,in america, have said they want no coonection with middle east terrorist muslums

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :

1. Israel as a country is a tiny strip of land crowded against the mediterranean on one side, and enemies that have been trying to erase it since...1948, on the other.
2. The Palestinians' problem is that they have been both victims, and pawns in this, and the people using them as pawns get a 'pass' from the International Community on the whole (including much of Europe) for keeping a nation created by United Nations Fiat under constant siege.
3. As far as I can recall, the only national neighbour that recognizes Israel as a sovereign nation, is Egypt-and that got the Egyptian President Anwar Sadat assassinated.
1. Now, Israel is not just the victim here. Please, there is always two sides to an argument, and the Arabs didn't just start a war because they happen to be Arabs.

2. Did you know that the UN didn't actually create Israel. They were about to, but Ben Gurion got there first, declared independence and refused to settle for any borders. That's what go the Arabs so angry in the first place.

3. And a bit of trivia: Who killed Anwar Al-Sadat? That's right, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, now second man of Al-Qaeda.
Are you saying such an extremist represents Egyptian opinion?

Deeuze. We do not claim that no european hates Jews, we claim that it is not an institutional inbred thing to hate jews.

Oh, and OceanDrive, you continue to sicken me.only n00bs can hope to impress me with that kind of whinnying..

Logically, why would lobbies control newspapers or TV Channels? That makes zero sense.the reason lobbies are created is to influence gov decisions...the Jewish Lobby was set up to help Powerful Jewish Businessmen...and to help Israel...and it has been very successful at that...

most major US media projects pro Israel News...and most major Hollywood studio are pro-Israel too...in hollywood movies arabs are often the bad guys...ever seen a movie where the mossad is the bad guy?

have you ever seen a movie about the "USS Liberty" ???

.... then insinuate that the Jews control the media. If that was true, then there would be a hell of a lot less pro-Palestinian major newspapers. And Christian(e?) Amanpour would be out of a job (she's seen as biased against Israel to many). And NPR's coverage of Israel would change. The list goes on
your list pro-palestinean is not long enough.
your list so far has only 1 Muslim name ...Amanpour.
NPR is biased since when?

First you post links to a website which advertises....I posted a link that spelled out the NAMES of the jewish slave traders...Goggled link for "jewish slave traders"...I will post it again for your pleasure...as soon as i find it again (already looked but is not in this thread.

i work with names, dates, and logic...anything else is not going to impress me much.

only n00bs can hope to impress me with that kind of whinnying..
My, my. Aren't we the humblest, most logical poster on this website?

the reason lobbies are created is to influence gov decisions...the Jewish Lobby was set up to help Powerful Jewish Businessmen...and to help Israel...and it has been very successful at that...
Cool. They won some fights in congress. That doesn't mean they control every media outlet ever, which you claimed. Note the "gov decisions" you use. Media is not the government.

most major US media projects pro Israel News...and most major Hollywood studio are pro-Israel too...in hollywood movies arabs are often the bad guys...ever seen a movie where the mossad is the bad guy?

have you ever seen a movie about the "USS Liberty" ???
The major media thing, patently false. CNN and NPR, to start, are despised in many Jewish circles for the anti-Israel bent of their stories.

So now the current American fascination with Islamic terrorism is the Jews' fault? That couldn't have anything to do with September 11th, could it? The current spate of movies with Islamic fundamentalist is a result of the culture shift in America in response to 9/11, the War on Terror, and the war in Iraq. I doubt you can provide one direct causal link from Judaism to what you're talking about.

And yes, I've seen that movie. It's pretty good, too.

Also, Islamic terrorists in movies is not the same as supporting Israel. This logic thing is not your strong suit.

your list pro-palestinean is not long enough.
your list so far has only 1 Muslim name ...Amanpour.
NPR is biased since when?
Muslim names don't mean anything in this discussion. What does matter is the perception of the Jewish community. Seems your contact with Judaism seems to come entirely from jewwatch.com, I'll explain it more fully. There's a perception among many Jews that certain news outlets are biased against Israel. For some, that even extends to the Associated Press. I don't agree with them. I love NPR. That doesn't mean the perception doesn't exist. And if that was the perception in the Jewish community, and the Jews controlled the media, this perception of bias wouldn't exist.

I posted a link that spelled out the NAMES of the jewish slave traders...Goggled link for "jewish slave traders"...I will post it again for your pleasure...as soon as i find it again (already looked but is not in this thread.
And I should believe that website why? It's like posting a link from the Nazi Assocation of America that claims the Jews control the world's banking system. It's not credible. Because the website is patently anti-Semitic, those names could be entirely made up to further their agenda.

Note that I'm not denying there were Jewish slave traders. There were. But there were slave traders in virtually every culture world wide. I don't know why that's relevant at all to this debate.

i work with names, dates, and logic...anything else is not going to impress me much.
Judge not lest ye be judged.

Goddamnit.
My thread on how political correctness and laws against "hate speech" are hurting Europe has degenerated into anti-Semitism. Feh, this has to be a diversion so that more PC and hate speech is encoded into law.....

only n00bs can hope to impress me with that kind of whinnying..
Insulting isn't a great way to debate someone.

the reason lobbies are created is to influence gov decisions...the Jewish Lobby was set up to help Powerful Jewish Businessmen...and to help Israel...and it has been very successful at that...
And you think the Jewish population of America shouldn't have a lobby at all? Also, did you ever think that there are Powerful Jewish Businessmen because maybe they work hard? If you work hard, why shouldn't you become rich or powerful?

most major US media projects pro Israel News...and most major Hollywood studio are pro-Israel too...in hollywood movies arabs are often the bad guys...ever seen a movie where the mossad is the bad guy?
Can't see the connection between Hollywood being pro-Israel and anti-Arab....
Also, did you ever see a movie where the FBI or CIA are the bad guys? MI6?
Many might argue the opposite, that in fact US media is anti-Israel. CNN, although improved, were strongly anti-Israel. The BBC are incredibly anti-semitic in general. Fox I think it is who were even banned from broadcasting in Israel because of their blind hatred of us.

I posted a link that spelled out the NAMES of the jewish slave traders...Goggled link for "jewish slave traders"...I will post it again for your pleasure...as soon as i find it again (already looked but is not in this thread.
That is not an objective source, its like linking to Stormfront or the American Nazi Party. I could find anything you wanted me to on the internet, and find it from any angle. I could find websites saying that aliens have landed and are, at this moment, taking over the Earth. Not everything on the internet is credible.

i work with names, dates, and logic...anything else is not going to impress me much.
Everybody has their own idea of logic. Tenete Traditiones once tried to convince us that Jews are taking over the world. He thought it perfectly logical. I think thats completely illogical, every side has their own idea of logic. What someone else might find completely logical, you might find the opposite.

I've been following this thread since it started and been deciding whether I can be bothered to post on it or not. I finally decided to, so here goes, and my post will be in several sections...

1) Press Anti-Semitism

The Gross article proves nothing, it's a wild exaggeration. He cites a dozen or so examples of "anti-semitic" articles (many of which are actually anti-Israel's government) in papers from across a continent of 500 million people. Le Monde, sure, that's a bit worrying, but to cite the Luton Advertiser or whatever it was as "major" press is just an absurdity. Thousands upon thousands of news stories and opinion columns appear in newspapers in Europe every single day, the bare scraping Gross provides is far from representative of the culture of the continent.

2) European Anti-Semitism

There have been a number of incidents in recent weeks, I'm thinking of the defacing of a Jewish cemetery in London, the killing of an Orthodox Jewish man in Paris (who wasn't robbed, just killed in the street), synagogue burning. These incidents have happened where there are large concentrations of people, and where the largest Jewish communities live. They're disturbing, but they don't represent a growing tide of anti-semitism in Europe as a whole. They are again, although well publicised, fairly isolated instances. Certainly they're hate crimes, certainly they occur precisely because their targets are Jewish, but they're a vanishingly tiny number of incidents - Jews in Europe are not under seige in their homes.

3) Nazis' Anti-Semitism

Anyone who says "don't bleat about the Holocaust" is, frankly, a moron. Yes, it was over 50 years ago, and that might sime like eternity if you're a teenager, but to the people who suffered through it, it's still very fresh in their minds. Hundreds of thousands of Jews living today were imprisoned, worked near to death, saw their parents, family and friends tortured and killed right in front of them and lived for years in conditions so squalid as to almost defy description with the permenant threat of sudden death hanging over them. That scars. Yes, other people than Jews went to the camps: Jehovah's Witnesses, Romanies, gays, to name but a few, but no other people was the target of the Nazi's hate in the same way. Hitler's regime killed 2 out of every 3 Jews living in Europe. Think about that. Look out your front door, now imagine everyone who lives in the house on either side of you rounded up and sent to a death camp.

4) Historical Anti-Semitism

Throughout the history of Europe, from the third century onwards when much of the protection afforded by the Roman Empire was withdrawn from them, the Jews have been persecuted - largely in the name of religious orthodoxy. Most of the kings of Europe at one point or another welcomed Jews into their kingdoms, used them as bankers and then despoiled their goods and expelled them. The pattern repeats so often it's almost laughable. Someone spoke of Poland, yes, Poland was offered as a sanctuary to the Jews, provided that they lived in the ghettoes - the ghetto is NOT a creation of the Nazis, it had existed in Europe as an idea for centuries. The Jews accepted it as they felt safer within the ghetto walls, but they were equally much more vulnerable, being all in one place. There are numerous cases of the ghettos being sealed and the Jews left to starve. I could go on at length, but this isn't the place, and I won't even delve into the crusades here.

5) Jewish Disapora

The Jews today are not like the Jews of old. The world has changed since WWII, we live in a globalised world, information is more freely exchanged, countries more closely scrutinized by their neighbours and liberal democracy has largely replaced totalitarianism. Jews for centuries have stayed out of politics, they're tried to live quietly in their own communities and to get on with their lives - they've not always been allowed to. Since the War, however, Jews have become more vocal, more organized and more inclined to stand up and be counted. What do they want? They want the equal protection of the State they live in, they want not to be subjected to hatred and abuse and they want never again to be used as a scapegoat for their nation's ills. In short, they want to be treated like human beings regardless of how they choose to worship.

6) Israeli Jews

This will always be a troubled area. The Israeli government is, and has been, guilty of many crimes against the Palestinians. I don't seek to justify their actions, only to explain. Jews wanted a homeland, a state they could call their own where they would be able to defend themselves without relying on the benevolence of whatever country they were in, they wanted there to be somewhere on Earth that would be a refuge for them so if, God forbid, the horrors of WWII were repeated there would be somewhere to flee to, somewhere that would stand up for them. You all know the stories of how fee Jews managed to escape Germany because too few passports were issued by other governments. The problem on this thread stems from a confusion of Israel with "the Jews", not all Jews live in Israel (about one in three do), not all Jews agree with the creation of Israel either. Condemn the government for its actions, by all means, but remember that the government does not represent all Jews. Remember also that Israel has a very large muslim population as well, who are free to worship however they choose. And, finally, remember that the Palestinians are guilty of a great many crimes too. Neither side is clean, and as Arafat and Sharon's generation finally die out, new leaders will come forward for whom the whole fight is less personal and immediate and who will, hopefully, bring more reason to the table. Just don't expect it overnight, this is a centuries old fight.

I probably had more I intended to say, but I'll leave it there for now. I'll just close by saying that I am Jewish, and I live in the UK and the article Gross wrote resembles nothing even close to my experience. Finally, to those who suggest it is wrong to prosecute people for something they've said - please understand that even in the US free speech only goes so far, there are many things which are not protected: you cannot incite violence for example. And do also remember that, certainly in Britain, it's not a one sided thing, hate crimes are dealt with regardless of who perpetrates them and against whom.