NationStates Jolt Archive

It's really bad. And I mean, really bad. This Wall Street Journal article starts with some hopeful news, but...

I've bolded some of the really bad parts.

J'Accuse
> Anti-Semitism at Le Monde and beyond.
> By TOM GROSS
>
> The Wall Street Journal
>
> June 2, 2005
>
> A French court last week found three writers for Le Monde, as well
> as the newspaper's publisher, guilty of "racist defamation" against
> Israel and the Jewish people. In a groundbreaking decision, the
> Versailles court of appeal ruled that a comment piece published in
> Le Monde in 2002, "Israel-Palestine: The Cancer," had whipped up
> anti-Semitic opinion.
>
> The writers of the article, Edgar Morin (a well-known sociologist),
> Daniele Sallenave (a senior lecturer at Nanterre University) and
> Sami Nair (a member of the European parliament), as well as Le
> Monde's publisher, Jean-Marie Colombani, were ordered to pay
> symbolic damages of one euro to a human-rights group and to the
> Franco-Israeli association. Le Monde was also ordered to publish a
> condemnation of the article, which it has yet to do.
>
> It is encouraging to see a French court rule that anti-Semitism
> should have no place in the media -- even when it is masked as an
> analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The ruling also makes
> it clear that the law in this respect applies to extremist Jews (Mr.
> Morin is Jewish) as much as to non-Jews.
>
> Press freedom is a value to be cherished, but not exploited and
> abused. In general, European countries have strict laws against
> such abuse and Europe's mainstream media are in any case usually
> good at exercising self-censorship. Responsible journalists
> strenuously avoid libelous characterizations of entire ethnic,
> national or religious groups. They go out of their way, for
> example, to avoid suggesting that the massacres in Darfur, which are
> being carried out by Arab militias, in any way represent an Arab
> trait.
>
> The exception to this seems to be the coverage of Jews, particularly
> Israeli ones. This is particularly ironic given the fact that
> Europe's relatively strict freedom of speech laws (compared to those
> in the U.S.) were to a large extend drafted as a reaction to the
> Continent's Nazi occupation. And yet, from Oslo to Athens, from
> London to Madrid, it has been virtually open season on them in the
> last few years, especially in supposedly liberal media.
>
> "Israel-Palestine: The Cancer" was a nasty piece of work, replete
> with lies, slanders and myths about "the chosen people," "the Jenin
> massacre," describing the Jews as "a contemptuous people taking
> satisfaction in humiliating others," "imposing their unmerciful
> rule," and so on.
>
> Yet it is was no worse than thousands of other news reports,
> editorials, commentaries, letters, cartoons and headlines published
> throughout Europe in recent years, in the guise of legitimate and
> reasoned discussion of Israeli policies.
>
> The libels and distortions about Israel in some British media are by
> now fairly well known: the Guardian's equation of Israel and al
> Qaeda; the Evening Standard's equation of Israel and the Taliban;
> the report by the BBC's Middle East correspondent, Orla Guerin, on
> how "the Israelis stole Christmas." Most notorious of all is the
> Independent's Middle East correspondent, Robert Fisk, who
> specializes in such observations as his comment that, "If ever a
> sword was thrust into a military alliance of East and West, the
> Israelis wielded that dagger," and who implies that the White House
> has fallen into the hands of the Jews: "The Perles and the
> Wolfowitzes and the Cohens . . . [the] very sinister people
> hovering around Bush."
>
> The invective against Israel elsewhere in Europe is less well known.
> In Spain, for example, on June 4, 2001 (three days after a
> Palestinian suicide bomber killed 21 young Israelis at a disco, and
> wounded over 100 others, all in the midst of a unilateral Israeli
> ceasefire), the liberal daily Cambio 16 published a cartoon of
> Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (with a hook nose he does not
> have), wearing a skull cap (which he does not usually wear),
> sporting a swastika inside a star of David on his chest, and
> proclaiming: "At least Hitler taught me how to invade a country and
> destroy every living insect."
>
> The week before, on May 23, El Pais (the "New York Times of Spain")
> published a cartoon of an allegorical figure carrying a small
> rectangular-shaped black moustache, flying through the air toward
> Sharon's upper lip. The caption read: "Clio, the muse of history,
> puts Hitler's moustache on Ariel Sharon."
>
> Two days later, on May 25, the Catalan daily La Vanguardia published
> a cartoon showing an imposing building, with a sign outside reading
> "Museo del Holocausto Judio" (Museum of the Jewish Holocaust), and
> next to it another building under construction, with a large sign
> reading "Futuro Museo del Holocausto Palestino" (Future Museum of
> the Palestinian Holocaust).
>
> Greece's largest newspaper, the leftist daily Eleftherotypia, has
> run several such cartoons. In April 2002, on its front cover, under
> the title "Holocaust II," an Israeli soldier was depicted as a Nazi
> officer and a Palestinian civilian as a Jewish death camp inmate.
> In September 2002, another cartoon in Eleftherotypia showed an
> Israeli soldier with a Jewish star telling a Nazi officer next to
> him "Arafat is not a person the Reich can talk to anymore." The
> Nazi officer responds "Why? Is he a Jew?"
>
> In Italy, in October 2001, the Web site of one of the country's most
> respected newspapers, La Repubblica, published the notorious
> anti-Semitic forgery, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," in its
> entirety, without providing any historical explanation. It did
> suggest, however, that the work would help readers understand why
> the U.S. had taken military action in Afghanistan.
>
> In April 2002, the Italian liberal daily La Stampa ran a front-page
> cartoon showing an Israeli tank, emblazoned with a Jewish star,
> pointing a large gun at the baby Jesus in a manger, while the baby
> pleads, "Surely they don't want to kill me again, do they?"
>
> In Corriere Della Sera, another cartoon showed Jesus trapped in his
> tomb, unable to rise, because Ariel Sharon, rifle in hand, is
> sitting on the sepulcher.
>
> Sweden's largest morning paper, Dagens Nyheter, ran a caricature of
> a Hassidic Jew accusing anyone who criticized Israel of
> anti-Semitism. Another leading Swedish paper, Aftonbladet, used the
> headline "The Crucifixion of Arafat."
>
> If the misreporting and bias were limited to one or two newspapers
> or television programs in each country, it might be possible to
> shrug them off. But they are not. Bashing Israel even extends to
> local papers that don't usually cover foreign affairs, such as the
> double-page spread titled "Jews in jackboots" in "Luton on Sunday."
> (Luton is an industrial town in southern England.) Or the article in
> Norway's leading regional paper, Stavanger Aftenblad, equating
> Israel's actions against terrorists in Ramallah with the attacks on
> the World Trade Center.
>
> Grotesque and utterly false comparisons such as these should have no
> place in reporting or commenting on the Middle East. Yet although
> the French court ruling -- the first of its kind in Europe -- is a
> major landmark, no one in France seems to care. The country's most
> distinguished newspaper, the paper of record, has been found guilty
> of anti-Semitism. One would have thought that such a verdict would
> prompt wide-ranging coverage and lead to extensive soul-searching
> and public debate. Instead, there has been almost complete silence,
> and virtually no coverage in the French press.
>
> And few elsewhere will have heard about it. Reuters and Agence
> France Presse (agencies that have demonstrated particularly marked
> bias against Israel) ran short stories about the judgment in their
> French-language wires last week, but chose not to run them on their
> English news services. The Associated Press didn't run it at all.
> Instead of triggering the long overdue reassessment of Europe's
> attitude toward Israel, the media have chosen to ignore it.
>
> (Mr. Gross is a former Jerusalem correspondent of the Sunday
> Telegraph and the New York Daily News.)

Well, a good thing to post but. . .you have probably just started what will in the end be an anti-Isreal party as anti-Isreali posters will jump on and list there objections to Isreal's actions and policies.

Yep. Half a billion anti-semites here. Undeniable.

Aside from Turkey....Europe has always been known for Anti-Semitism.

Not to say Turkey never had, just not as much.

So disheartening....why do you hate us so?!

Europe is becoming anti-Semitic again for two main reasons:

One: The US is obviously pro-Israel and Europeans will do anything to be different from or defy the country which saved them from the worst anti-Semitics in history.

Two: The somewhat true stereotype that Jewish people are good with money. Because many Jewish people have money (or are perceived to) the Socialists see them as an impediment to creating a classless society. This is the same reason that Stalin slaughtered Jews.

Well, a good thing to post but. . .you have probably just started what will in the end be an anti-Isreal party as anti-Isreali posters will jump on and list there objections to Isreal's actions and policies.
Yep...and I bet its not going to be long before some crybaby pulls the Holodek...I mean the Holocast.

Yep. Half a billion anti-semites here. Undeniable.
This is exactly the sort of logic that whitewashes problems in most societies. "The problem doesn't exist, because not everyone's a part of it." I need to be inflammatory at least some of the time to call attention to the problem. As the article aptly notes, no one is paying attention to it right now. I aim to do my bit to change that.

Well, a good thing to post but. . .you have probably just started what will in the end be an anti-Isreal party as anti-Isreali posters will jump on and list there objections to Isreal's actions and policies.

And the Pro-Israeli's will beat them back to their sewers...

Two: The somewhat true stereotype that Jewish people are good with money. Because many Jewish people have money (or are perceived to) the Socialists see them as an impediment to creating a classless society. This is the same reason that Stalin slaughtered Jews.

I don't think it was Stalin.....He tried to ally with Israel by helping them during the Independence war and even gave the Jew's their own autonomous province...somewhere near China.

<<The US is obviously pro-Israel and Europeans will do anything to be different from or defy the country which saved them from the worst anti-Semitics in history.>>

I like Russia.

If I was anti-semite I'd be fucked. Jewish neighbors on both sides (until one died, he was a holocaust survivor).

So disheartening....why do you hate us so?!
Maybe some hate you because of the Israel endless violence...

Yep...and I bet its not going to be long before some crybaby pulls the Holodek...I mean the Holocast.
If you'd read the article, you'd notice that anti-Semits tend to be appropriating even the pinnacle of anti-Semitism. There isn't a day that goes by that someone compares Ariel Sharon to Hitler - absolutely unjustly.

Maybe some hate you because of the Israel endless violence...
First, check your grammar.

Second, so it's ok to hate a whole people because of the (in my view non-existant) actions of the its leaders? It's ok to hate the Germans because of Hitler? No, it's not.

I have to go, but I'll check back later.

If you'd read the article, you'd notice that anti-Semits tend to be appropriating even the pinnacle of anti-Semitism. There isn't a day that goes by that someone compares Ariel Sharon to Hitler - absolutely unjustly.yeah...yeah..yeah...but you are not adressing my point.

how long before some crybaby pulls the Hollocaust?

Anti-Semitism is bad, yes. But many other things in this article disturb me

No surprise that these remarks were made by a sociologist, but I'm even more shocked France has laws against hate speech. What, the hate speech wasnt PC enough?

Maybe some hate you because of the Israel endless violence...

But of course Palestinean endless violence is fine and dandy because they are oppressed. . . Arab endless violence is fine and dandy because it is directed against Isreal and the US. . .

Not noticed hitler/Sharon comparisons myself. I have noted some comparisons of his regime's actions to those of a variety of unpleasant types. Can't say I entirely disagree. Actions I have seen via the various media and heard from friends and aquaintances who have been there, none of which I approve of.

But of course Palestinean endless violence is fine and dandy because they are oppressed. . . Arab endless violence is fine and dandy because it is directed against Isreal and the US. . .


Double-standards are the latest fad ;)

I thought the US supported the French Resistance.

What's the difference here?

But of course Palestinean endless violence is fine and dandy because they are oppressed. . . .
in a way...Its as fine as the founding fathers violence against the Brits...
most of the oppressed peoples do have my favor...with some reserves

This is exactly the sort of logic that whitewashes problems in most societies. "The problem doesn't exist, because not everyone's a part of it." I need to be inflammatory at least some of the time to call attention to the problem. As the article aptly notes, no one is paying attention to it right now. I aim to do my bit to change that.
Hold on there, Speedy. In my post, I said the problem should be whitewashed....where? I happen to believe this is a continent of half a billion of anti-semites. Your problem with that was... where?

It does get a bit frustrating. Isreali's roll a tank over a house (a tactic I do not agree with) and we get worldwide condemnation by governments and the press. The PLO/Hamas whatever strap bombs to a young man and stick him on a bus and he kills forty people or so and we get excuses and justification coupled with tepid shaking of the head by governments and the world press.
Palestineans should be held to a higer standard than they are. If they would have adopted the tactics of Ghandi they would have acheived much more by now.

Yep...and I bet its not going to be long before some crybaby pulls the "Holodek"...I mean the "Holocast" wordor the Nazism word

Hold on there, Speedy. In my post, I said the problem should be whitewashed....where? I happen to believe this is a continent of half a billion of anti-semites. Your problem with that was... where?

I thought your post meant the exact opposite, it seemed to be mocking his assertion, that 's where I think he/she was coming from. Seemed like sarcasm.

yeah...yeah..yeah...but you are not adressing my point.

how long before some crybaby pulls the Hollocaust?
People drag up slavery around here all the time. Are they crybabies too?

It does get a bit frustrating. Isreali's roll a tank over a house (a tactic I do not agree with) and we get worldwide condemnation by governments and the press. The PLO/Hamas whatever strap bombs to a young man and stick him on a bus and he kills forty people or so and we get excuses and justification coupled with tepid shaking of the head by governments and the world press.
Palestineans should be held to a higer standard than they are. If they would have adopted the tactics of Ghandi they would have acheived much more by now.


Maybe, but in a land with a strong tradition of holy martyrs and paradise, they take the options they see as viable.

I don't like them doing it either but, TBH I support the ones being opressed not the oppressors.

I thought your post meant the exact opposite, it seemed to be mocking his assertion, that 's where I think he/she was coming from. Seemed like sarcasm.
Tough.

I thought the US supported the French Resistance.

What's the difference here?

France was fighting to overthrow a murderous regime. The Israeli’s only seek a home for themselves and freely welcome nonviolent Arabs to live amongst them. It is notable that they only strike in self-defense.


I don't think it was Stalin.....He tried to ally with Israel by helping them during the Independence war and even gave the Jew's their own autonomous province...somewhere near China.

This may have been his foreign policy but the fact is he killed millions of Jewish farmers who wouldn’t conform to his tyrannical cooperative policies.

I dislike Israel so much that I once got myself a forumban after posting rantings about nuking them on another forum I frequent.

BTW, I don't remember seeing them or Palestine in the news for a while now, any idea what's happening there now?

People drag up slavery around here all the time. Are they crybabies too?the hollocast has ended..and when it was all over ...many Jews have profited from the world sympaty..and still do today.

Slavery has almost ended...but very-very-very few victims have ever got any kind of compensation.

<<I don't remember seeing them or Palestine in the news for a while now, any idea what's happening there now?>>

Sharon is pulling some of the illegal settlements back.

Undelia. I'm sure you recall Hitler's Lebensraum idea. Now apply it to this statement.

<<France was fighting to overthrow a murderous regime. The Israeli’s only seek a home for themselves and freely welcome nonviolent Arabs to live amongst them. It is notable that they only strike in self-defense.>>

I dislike Israel so much that I once got myself a forumban after posting rantings about nuking them on another forum I frequent.

BTW, I don't remember seeing them or Palestine in the news for a while now, any idea what's happening there now?

I am so surprised at you Gene! :eek:

in a way...Its as fine as the founding fathers violence against the Brits...
most of the oppressed peoples do have my favor...with some reserves

How many founding fathers strapped bombs to the youth and said, "Hey, go over into that eating establishment and blow yourself and them up and you will have a special place in heaven."
How many founding fathers considered murdering women and children as part of a legitimate tactic for winning the war?
They fought battles openly. They raided military targets and on occasion, rare occasion some colonials attacked civilians. This kind of action was not supported very much by the leadership and was not part of a concerted strategy by them.

Slavery has almost ended...but very-very-very few victims have ever got any kind of compensation.


Find a living victim and we'll compensate for it ;)

The Israeli’s only seek a home for themselves.Obviously the middle of millions of Muslims was not the right place to create a Jewish state.

they should try to seek a home elsewhere in Europe or America...far from Arablands.

It does get a bit frustrating. Isreali's roll a tank over a house (a tactic I do not agree with) and we get worldwide condemnation by governments and the press. The PLO/Hamas whatever strap bombs to a young man and stick him on a bus and he kills forty people or so and we get excuses and justification coupled with tepid shaking of the head by governments and the world press.
Palestineans should be held to a higer standard than they are. If they would have adopted the tactics of Ghandi they would have acheived much more by now.

Also, if Arafat would have accepted the deal where they would get 98% of their land back, the Palastinians would be a hell of a lot better off. That was a huge mistake on his part.

Tough.

Umm, 31. . .friendly and explainitory, Bunnyducks. . .openly hostile to friendly explaination. . .why? You in a rotten mood today?

Also, if Arafat would have accepted the deal where they would get 98% of their land back, the Palastinians would be a hell of a lot better off. That was a huge mistake on his part.

I am a supporter of Isreal but quite often I find myself thinking, "What the hell are they doing?" Both sides seem bent on making mistakes quite often.
I think because fear motivates both sides and fear leads to hypersensitivity and rapid reaction.

the hollocast has ended..and when it was all over ...many Jews have profited from the world sympaty..and still do today.

Slavery has almost ended...but very-very-very few victims have ever got any kind of compensation.Find a living victim and we'll compensate for it ;)
Africa is still suffering from the Black holocaust...and it went on for more than 2 years
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-atrocities-slaves-jewish-slave-ship-owners.html

Umm, 31. . .friendly and explainitory, Bunnyducks. . .openly hostile to friendly explaination. . .why? You in a rotten mood today?
:D
I admit. I am in a rotten mood. Sorry. But the thing is: West is anti-semite. Europe AND USA. Against all semitic tribes, more or less. Well, against what they represent. Great things of salvation religions.

Undelia. I'm sure you recall Hitler's Lebensraum idea. Now apply it to this statement.

Are you seriously comparing Jews to the Nazis… the Nazis!?! This is the kind o anti-Semitism that can’t be reasoned with.

Obviously the middle of millions of Muslims was not the right place to create a Jewish state.

they should try to seek a home elsewhere in Europe or America...far from Arablands..

So, it is the fault of Israel that Arabs are a bunch of racist ignoramuses? Remember that many Jews consider Israel to be their promised land, a gift from God to them.

They fought battles openly. They raided military targets and on occasion, rare occasion some colonials attacked civilians. This kind of action was not supported very much by the leadership and was not part of a concerted strategy by them.and easter bunny pull chocolate egges from his a**

Africa is still suffering from the Black holocaust...and it went on for more than 2 years
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-atrocit...hip-owners.html

:eek: Man, I hope you posted that link as a some sort of sick joke. jewwatch? What kind of sick hate group is that?

Remember that many Jews consider Israel to be their promised land, a gift from God to them.Its a holy land for 3 religions.

Show us a legal paper where God promised the Land to the Jews...it has to be binding contract BTW.

first of all, if i'm not mistaking...
anti-semitism covers both jews and muslims... so the term everyone seems to use to refer uniquely to jews has a broader meaning...

second, cartoons are supposed to be shocking. a real cartoonists wants to start an open discussion about a situation,... a good cartoon is controversial and allows the public debate about that issue to be opened/continued. if you hold to that general idea, those cartoonists did a great job... people did react, like yourself..

and... why do americans seem to think the entire continent of europe opposes everything the US do, or would support anyone who does so?
in my opinion, the EU is often able to look at international affairs and all from a greater distance than the US...
for example, the isreali-palestinian situation... where the US supports israel, and as such becomes more or less subjective towards the situation, the EU remains more of a beholder... the EU is able to look at the situation from both palestinian and isreali point of view. they recognise the palestinian cry for autonomy ànd the isreali wish for safety and everything..
the same can be said about the public opinion... people feel related to both sides, understanding the palestinian and isreali griefs and complaints... without taking sides, the public does actually strongly condemn the palestinian assaults, but doesn't approve of the isreali oppression either...
i'm not saying americans only think in black-and-white, but it's my impression the grayscale is used in europe more often.

and easter bunny pull chocolate egges from his a**
Wait, so you are stating that the Founding Fathers attacked civilians randomly?

You're going to need to source that one...

:eek: Man, I hope you posted that link as a some sort of sick joke. does it looks like I am joking?

Its a holy land for 3 religions.

Then why do you favor one over the other?

does it looks like I am joking?

I don't know that's why I asked. Only a truly hateful human being could possibly believe that.

first of all, if i'm not mistaking...
anti-semitism covers both jews and muslims... so the term everyone seems to use to refer uniquely to jews has a broader meaning...

Ahh, semantics, the last refuge for one who knows his argument is irrational.

<<Originally Posted by Wurzelmania
Undelia. I'm sure you recall Hitler's Lebensraum idea. Now apply it to this statement.


Are you seriously comparing Jews to the Nazis… the Nazis!?! This is the kind o anti-Semitism that can’t be reasoned with.>>

You originally stated that the jews were trying to get land to live in. Yes? The palestinians are resisting this action, as is their right. Same happened in WW2. Hitler wanted land to live in amongst his more insane reasons, everyone else resisted him.

If I am an anti-semite then so are you.

Try to quote in context Undelia. If nothing else it's generally easier to prove one side right.

does it looks like I am joking?
By that, are you stating that you dislike all Jews?

and easter bunny pull chocolate egges from his a**

:eek: But there is no Easter Bunny! I see you are not to be taken seriously, okay, I can do that. :p

I'm sorry thats bullcrap, Europe is in no way antisemetic and to claim that we have strict laws on freedom of speech compared to the US is the biggest falacy I have ever heard. It is one thing to condemn Israel for its continued illegal occupation of Palastinian territory, it is another thing to be anti semetic, The Majority of liberal, freethinging europe is the former and not the latter, of course there are extreme nationalist and other fringe groups who despise jews .... and pretty much everything else for that matter but for critisism of this to come from the country which spawned the KKK .... a tad hypocritical methinks

Heh, rubbish. It's not happening.

I watch the TV news here in the UK, I read most of the major newspapers at least on occasion, though I tend to stick with the Guardian, and I am simply not seeing it.

There is no more anti-semitism in Europe than there is racism of any other sort, and to suggest it enjoys popular support is absurd.

I don't know that's why I asked. Only a truly hateful human being could possibly believe that.beleive what?

that its a Holy land for 3 religions?
That saying "God promised me that land" is no good reason to kill arabs?
that they should not have created Jewish state there?
that the jews exploit the jew Holocaust tragedy?
that the Black holocaust has caused more victims for a longer period of time?
that African descendets has never been compensated like the jewish victims?
that the Jews were slave traders?

wich one you want to debate me about?

If I am an anti-semite then so are you.

I'd like to see you make that argument, considering I was raised in a predominatly Jewish town and I have some Jewish relatives.

I'm sorry thats bullcrap, Europe is in no way antisemetic and to claim that we have strict laws on freedom of speech compared to the US is the biggest falacy I have ever heard. It is one thing to condemn Israel for its continued illegal occupation of Palastinian territory, it is another thing to be anti semetic, The Majority of liberal, freethinging europe is the former and not the latter, of course there are extreme nationalist and other fringe groups who despise jews .... and pretty much everything else for that matter but for critisism of this to come from the country which spawned the KKK .... a tad hypocritical methinks

but to claim Europe is "in no way" anti-semetic is also le bullcrap. Using absolute terms generally leads to an exaggerated statement.

By that, are you stating that you dislike all Jews?there is a "?"(question mark) at the end...in most languages that means I am asking a question.

NOT making a statement.

Its so curious that anyone that attacks the policies of the state of Israel is almost imediatly branded as an anti-semite, or anyone that shows a little bit of understanding to the palestinians is considered a supporter of terrorism...

Well, i think they, Israelis and Palestinians are equally insane.

But to the topic.. Well, again there is some confusion. Europe is far more neutral to the Palestinian-Israeli issue, at least we aren't staunch supporters of one side (One could mount a case defending that Europe is more pro-palestine, but that would be marginal, and the USA support to Israel is far greater). Therefore, attacks on the policy of israel are expected here. They are not a question of anti-semitism, as far as we are concerned, 100% of Israelis could be budhist, they would still be taking land that isnt theirs.

Offcourse, there is indeed a growing problem with anti-semitism, derived mainly because Europe is growing increasingly more Arab. For example, 10% of France population is Muslim.. muslims dont like israelis.. you can do the math from here on why anti-semitism is growing in Europe. But Europe itself is far from Anti-semitic. Mainly because:

a) We wiped the jews out of here, they arent anywere near to be hated.
b) We have the holocaust. We generally think twice before attacking a jew, because he is a jew. Its a stigma.

Palestinian resistance is justified because israel is in the obvious moral wrong.

Killing people is always wrong, and both sides are guilty of mass murder.

However, comparatively, israel is the bellicose invader and the palestinian resistance is defending its freedom and homeland.

Are innocent people blown up?

Yes. They were blown up in world war 2 also.

That doesnt make the Allies the moral equivalent of the Axis.

War is hell, &c.

beleive what?

that its a Holy land for 3 religions?
That saying "God promised me that land" is no good reason to kill arabs?
that they should not have created Jewish state there?
that the jews exploit the jew Holocaust tragedy?
that the Black holocaust has caused more victims for a longer period of time?
that African descendets has never been compensated like the jewish victims?
that the Jews were slave traders?

wich one you want to debate me about?

Those are all true. You could have easily picked a more reliable site to quote from, though.
By the way, the last point really should have no bearing on Jews as a whole, now should it? Unless of course...

I'd like to see you make that argument, considering I was raised in a predominatly Jewish town and I have some Jewish relatives.

Same argument you made about me. As I said, I am neighbor to a Rabbi and was friends with the previous Rabbi's family, I even attended the Ophernesh for the guy's youngest son for crying out loud!

It really doesn't get that much less anti-semitic. I made the comment that the actions of the Israeli government were comparable to those of the Nazi government (less extreme but still comparable). You responded with accusations of anti-semetism.

So once again, even if your allegations had a grain of truth, it really is unimportant.there is other sites for Jewish slave traders...
58,400 sites for Jewish slave traders - 0.09 sec

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Jewish+slave+traders&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&fr=FP-tab-web-t&toggle=1

How many founding fathers strapped bombs to the youth and said, "Hey, go over into that eating establishment and blow yourself and them up and you will have a special place in heaven."
How many founding fathers considered murdering women and children as part of a legitimate tactic for winning the war?
They fought battles openly. They raided military targets and on occasion, rare occasion some colonials attacked civilians. This kind of action was not supported very much by the leadership and was not part of a concerted strategy by them.


Are you such an absurd historical revisionist that you deny "underage" people took part in the american revolution?

How about world war two? Was every lad who wanted to crew a bomber and drop a couple on berlin, accepting the great risk - bordering on 'suicide mission' - a "full grown man" ?

How many documented instances are there of child suicide bombers?

Pretending that the palestinian resistance has options beside suicide missions against the israelis is dishonest.

Sorry to disagree, Deleuze, but I don't think it's a problem. It's not a mainstream view, just like the KKK isn't a mainstream view in the US.
And just judging from a few other threads here the US has a much more serious problem with anti-muslim feelings.
You cannot outlaw opinions until they actually hurt someone. And so far few French sociologists have been sighted murdering jews.

Those are all true. You could have easily picked a more reliable site to quote from, though.
By the way, the last point really should have no bearing on Jews as a whole, now should it? Unless of course...no it should not.

Also I personally know Jewish people who are good and moral...I cant picture them to agree with all the israel violence

there is other sites for Jewish slave traders...
58,400 sites for Jewish slave traders - 0.09 sec

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Jewish+slave+traders&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&fr=FP-tab-web-t&toggle=1

Exactly, I'm saying that that site isn't a viable source of information.
I'm also saying that it has no bearing on reparations, as there were plenty of non-Jewish slave holders as well.

Basically, in situations like that, it's a matter of too little, too late. We can't really help various groups of people that've had shit happen to them past a certain period of time. It's neither pragmatic, feasible, nor reasonable.

Are you such an absurd historical revisionist that you deny "underage" people took part in the american revolution?

How about world war two? Was every lad who wanted to crew a bomber and drop a couple on berlin, accepting the great risk - bordering on 'suicide mission' - a "full grown man" ?

How many documented instances are there of child suicide bombers?

Pretending that the palestinian resistance has options beside suicide missions against the israelis is dishonest.


The British sent people to fight on spitfires with only a couple hours of training. That was suicide.

The Germans sent 16 year old kids in fighters against bomber formations in the end of the war. It was suicide too.

Personally, i don't get it the "suicide is bad" thing. If a guy wants to blow himself up, that's his problem.

The concern is the legality of the target, for me.

I say we let Buddhists take over the Holy Land, then charge admission for various piglrimages. It'd all go to a free-Tibet fund, or something like that. :P

The concern is the legality of the target, for me.

Right. You have both groups targeting civilians. The only difference is one has a government you can put pressure on.

Exactly, I'm saying that that site isn't a viable source of information.
I'm also saying that it has no bearing on reparations, as there were plenty of non-Jewish slave holders as well.
Little known fact: two of the most prosperous slave traders/owners in the South were a pair of light-skinned black brothers (twins, if I'm not mistaken) that lived in New Orleans.

The British sent people to fight on spitfires with only a couple hours of training. That was suicide.

The Germans sent 16 year old kids in fighters against bomber formations in the end of the war. It was suicide too.

Personally, i don't get it the "suicide is bad" thing. If a guy wants to blow himself up, that's his problem.

The concern is the legality of the target, for me.


I wonder what the proportion of soldiers/civilians killed by the palestinians is compared to the same proportion for the israelis.

Little known fact: two of the most prosperous slave traders/owners in the South were a pair of light-skinned black brothers (twins, if I'm not mistaken) that lived in New Orleans.


Which is why black people deserved what the got. or something. Right?


The role played in the enslavement of africans by white europeans and expecially white americans by a few people of color is trivial compared to the fact that the entire system came to be founded upon the greed and inhumanity of the american southern planters.

Which is why black people deserved what the got. or something. Right?
No. I was just pointing out a fact. You can put your words into someone else's mouth, NOT mine.

Incidentally, the British outlawed slavery in 1833, but it took the Americans half a century to come to the same conclusion, and even then the issue was so controversial that a long, bloody civil war had to be fought.

Today, the outcome is still a painful memory for many.

And as long as no ethnic, racial, sexual, religious, national, etc. group dies out completely, everything ends up ok!

No. I was just pointing out a fact. You can put your words into someone else's mouth, NOT mine.


Care to explain why that particular fact had any relevance to the discussion?

Or was it spam, post-whoring, &c.?

Care to explain why that particular fact had any relevance to the discussion?

Or was it spam, post-whoring, &c.?
Someone earlier brought up Jewish slave owners. I just related a little-known fact about slave owners.

I came home, and decided it would be time to check on the thread I made...wow. I kinda started a shitstorm, but I feel the need to correct the innacuracies that tended to abound.

First, Israel never targets civilians intentionally. It was cleared by every international human rights organization on these charges, in particular the Jenin calumny. If you don't believe me, read a statistical analysis of the conflict here:
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440
I'll quote part of it:
Population segments like women or older people are not military targets; thus their higher prevalence among Israeli fatalities is an indication of the degree to which Palestinian terrorists have killed Israelis simply for the “crime” of being Israeli.

In contrast, Palestinian noncombatant fatalities have been overwhelmingly young (but over the age of 11) and male. This pattern of Palestinian deaths completely contradicts accusations that Israel has “indiscriminately targeted women and children.” It is clear that the vast majority of the Palestinians killed did not die as the result of random Israeli attacks on inhabited areas, or on mixed-sex crowds at roadblocks and the like. There appears to be only one reasonable explanation of this pattern: that Palestinian men and boys engaged in behavior that brought them into conflict with Israeli armed forces. Certainly, at least after the first few days of the conflict, these Palestinian men and boys (or, in the case of the younger ones, their parents and teachers) have to have been aware that they were placing themselves in harm’s way.

In fact, the highly specific pattern of Palestinian noncombatant fatalities suggests that many of these deaths have resulted from an active Palestinian indoctrination campaign glorifying “martyrdom” – effectively encouraging boys and young men to confront Israeli forces and risk death even when there was no real likelihood of causing material harm to Israelis.

Second, European anti-Semitism cannot be ignored, and we can't pretend that it only exists at the margins. The newspapers cited in the article, if anyone bothered to read it, were the most famous and influential ones in their countries. They cater to and represent the views of the majority of the populations. Just like we can't pretend there isn't racism in America, we can't pretend there isn't anti-Semitism in Europe. Things need to be done about both of them. Right now, people are sitting on their asses. Someone needs a wake-up call. Judging from the response to this article, people don't want to hear it.

We can't be bound by traditional party lines - I'm a leftist/socialist/communist/liberal so I have to agree with everything the Palestinian side says and does, and the same for the right and Israel. Both sides have done things worth criticizing. I tend to think that Israel's done a lot less than Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but that's my judgment. Most of the people who will spring to my defense on social and economic views will disagree with me. But the left can't say because one group seems to be oppressed, that they're automatically right.

By the way, this JewWatch.com is a horrendous website. I'm considering posting a complaint in Moderation - opinions?
Examples:
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-references-gentile-hitler.html
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-worldconspiracies-folder.html
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-folder.html
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-mindcontrol-folder.html
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-folder.htm

...
This may have been his foreign policy but the fact is he killed millions of Jewish farmers who wouldn’t conform to his tyrannical cooperative policies.
What are you talking about? There were no 'millions of Jewish farmers' in early Twentieth Century Russia. There was no 'slaughter of Jews' in the USSR.

Second, European anti-Semitism cannot be ignored, and we can't pretend that it only exists at the margins. The newspapers cited in the article, if anyone bothered to read it, were the most famous and influential ones in their countries. They cater to and represent the views of the majority of the populations. Just like we can't pretend there isn't racism in America, we can't pretend there isn't anti-Semitism in Europe. Things need to be done about both of them. Right now, people are sitting on their asses. Someone needs a wake-up call. Judging from the response to this article, people don't want to hear it.

As a European, I can tell you, anti-Semitism is not wide-spread in Europe. I'm shocked that what you quoted happened in Le Monde, but that doesn't mean it's symptomatic of a deep-rooted problem. Yes, there are anti-Semites here, as everywhere, and yes, of course it's a problem, but you're blowing it out of all proportion.

Two of my three closest friends are Jewish, and I can assure you they don't feel as if they're living under siege or something. They don't feel oppressed, or in danger. To my knowledge, they've never been the target of any anti-Semitism.

France has a much bigger problem with deep-rooted anti-Arab racism (and, to a lesser degree, anti-Black) than it has with anti-Semitism.

What are you talking about? There were no 'millions of Jewish farmers' in early Twentieth Century Russia. There was no 'slaughter of Jews' in the USSR.

my understanding is that Jews in Czarist Russia of the late 19th and early 20th Century were not allowed to own land, work most professions, and were confined to an area of the Ukraine, Russia and Belorussia known as the Pale. For the most part they were little more than Serfs (which although officially had ended under Czar Alexander) was still a de facto economic condition for many peasants living in Czarist Russia. Which made them easy for the Nazis to kill in huge numbers during World War II as the Germans overran that entire area.

Stalin set up an Oblast for Jews in Siberia and the indication is that he was planning a purge of them (primarily because he was a suspecious bastard at all times and he thought all the Jews would support Israel over the Soviet Union). Mercifully for everyone he died before carrying out that project (along with numerous other purges he was planning).

does it looks like I am joking?

no it doesn't, but it does look like your massively mistaken in your knowledge of American history.

The first Blacks were brought to the colony of Virginia within a decade of its establishment. An English captain captured a Portugese slaver and ended up with the cargo of Slaves, and so took them to Virginia to sell them. All were immediately taken to harvest tobacco.

Now all of the original 13 Colonies were settled by England, which didn't allow Jews to enter England until Cromwell took power after the English Civil War in the mid 17th Century. So therefore, there is no possible way at all that Jews are responsible for the creation of the institution of Slavery in the New World.

Although Jews weren't exactly welcomed by the English Colonists, after the Revolution they were pretty much treated like everyone else in most parts of the US. There was considerable prejudice, and discrimination, usually by the upper classes in the Northeast, and the lower classes in the South, but overall it is no coincidence that the two biggest Jewish cities in the world (as far as number of Jews living there) are Los Angeles and New York City, not Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

my understanding is that Jews in Czarist Russia of the late 19th and early 20th Century were not allowed to own land, work most professions, and were confined to an area of the Ukraine, Russia and Belorussia known as the Pale. For the most part they were little more than Serfs (which although officially had ended under Czar Alexander) was still a de facto economic condition for many peasants living in Czarist Russia. Which made them easy for the Nazis to kill in huge numbers during World War II as the Germans overran that entire area.

Stalin set up an Oblast for Jews in Siberia and the indication is that he was planning a purge of them (primarily because he was a suspecious bastard at all times and he thought all the Jews would support Israel over the Soviet Union). Mercifully for everyone he died before carrying out that project (along with numerous other purges he was planning).
Quite so. But it cannot be said that the Soviet regime was slaughtering Jews. Although a lot of Jews were sent to the Gulag, it was a part of all-out repressions, the regime was not singling the Jews out.

Are you such an absurd historical revisionist that you deny "underage" people took part in the american revolution?

How about world war two? Was every lad who wanted to crew a bomber and drop a couple on berlin, accepting the great risk - bordering on 'suicide mission' - a "full grown man" ?

How many documented instances are there of child suicide bombers?

Pretending that the palestinian resistance has options beside suicide missions against the israelis is dishonest.

It is called peaceful resistance. Funny, it worked for Ghandi. The Palestinians have always had that option, what does it say about them that they never took that path.

I am well aware children took part in the conflict. I am also well aware they did not commit suicide bombings in crowds of non-combatents. Show me one place where I denied children took part in the American Revolution. I said people didn't strap bombs to themselves and walk into crowds of non-combatants and blow themselves up. Bit of a difference.

I willtake a lot of insult but being called a historical revisionist is one insult I will not brook.

While reading some of these posts I can't help but get the feeling that some of you are just trying to find another good reason to hate Europe and write it off as an anti-semite hate state. But that's just me.
As for anti-semitism in Europe, yes, it is on the rise. I come from Germany, which has a bunch of unwritten laws against publicly criticizing Israel. Pretty much any public figure that speaks out against israel could find himself labeled an anti-semite. This is mainly because there are plenty real anti-semites that abuse the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to rant against jews but also because of the Nazi dictatorship. It is quite difficult to criticize what the State of Israel is doing in its territory and the occupied zones without being shoved into the "brown corner", which may or may not be justified.
The reason the European left is pro-Palestinian, is because Palestinian violence is directed by organizations while Israeli violence generally occurs through the State. And while what Palestinians are doing is criminal, so is what the Israeli Government is doing (and liquidating leaders without a trial and erecting a wall on Palestinian territory as well as numerous settlements are, in fact, illegal).
My criticism is not directed against an ethnic group, it goes against an elected government which behaves in ways I find unacceptable. It is, however, understandable. Europeans don't know what it is like to live next door to terror in the degree that Israelis have for the entire time Israel has been around.

I live in Europe (England, in fact), and the only time I have heard Anti-Semitic expressions was during History lessons, on the tragedy of the Holocaust.
If European Anti-Semitism is "Undeniable", why on Earth is it so unheard of where I am?

I don't get it. Why is the world so hypersensitive to "anti-semitism"? If I posted a similar thread concerning anti-Polish tendencies, no one would care. But since this is about Jews, you get the sudden wave of "Oh my fucking God anti-semite!!11" posts. Even if the opinion presented in the original article were true, who cares? Yes, I know, the Jews suffered through the Holocaust. So did the Poles, Gypsies, and various other groups. Not to mention the scores of other ethnicities which suffered through systematic extermination throughout history. Jews aren't special. Comparitively, they aren't even a substantialy large ethnic group. But they are very vocal, and in today's modern world, being an anti-semite is the worst thing you can be. And as far as I can see, its this insistance on being treated like the untouchable holier-than-thou martyr race of the Earth which causes much of the resentment that people feel toward them.

The role played in the enslavement of africans by white europeans and expecially white americans by a few people of color is trivial compared to the fact that the entire system came to be founded upon the greed and inhumanity of the american southern planters.

Come on, be fair here. The dutch used slaves in their colonies in Asia. The danes and swedes used slaves in therir colonies in the caribbean/southern north america. The French used slaves in their American colonies. The Arabs traded slaves from Zanzibar and used slaves themselves. Etc. etc. etc.

All this before there was a US. So it's fallacious to say that slavery was founded on the greed and inhumanity of american southern planters. They were the last to let go. At an age where the rest of the western world knew better than to enslave fellow human beings, they stubbornly kept to it. That is the only thing that you can lay against the planters.

Oh, you don't know the half of it.
Here in London, we have pogroms daily.
Just having a large nose is enough to have you lynched, and gangs of middle-class journalists prowl the streets, clubbing to death anyone who has even a hint of a foreign accent.
If only we could be as enlightened and civilized as you wonderful, humanitarian Americans.
Well done, 'Tom Gross'. Another gem of balanced, sensible journalism.

The libels and distortions about Israel in some British media are by
now fairly well known: the Guardian's equation of Israel and al
Qaeda; the Evening Standard's equation of Israel and the Taliban;
the report by the BBC's Middle East correspondent, Orla Guerin, on
how "the Israelis stole Christmas."

Such shocking examples of anti-Semitic thoughtcrime that Tom can't even bring himself to justify them, I see.

Come on, you can't be serious.
There's about half a dozen examples of anti-Semitism worthy of note in there from the whole of Europe from the last half-decade.
We do have Jews here too, y'know; I live not half-an-hour away from Golders Green, a large Jewish area, and not the only one, and they seem alright there.
Honestly.
In America, Alabama I think it was, you've got people trying to ban books and plays that show homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle, and you're worried about half-a-dozen bigoted journalists somewhere in Sweden.

There is an extraordinary difference between being of Jewish origins and homosexuality. One is an act committed by the individual, the other is their genealogy. That's a bad comparison.

I don't get it. Why is the world so hypersensitive to "anti-semitism"? If I posted a similar thread concerning anti-Polish tendencies, no one would care. But since this is about Jews, you get the sudden wave of "Oh my fucking God anti-semite!!11" posts. Even if the opinion presented in the original article were true, who cares? Yes, I know, the Jews suffered through the Holocaust. So did the Poles, Gypsies, and various other groups. Not to mention the scores of other ethnicities which suffered through systematic extermination throughout history. Jews aren't special. Comparitively, they aren't even a substantialy large ethnic group. But they are very vocal, and in today's modern world, being an anti-semite is the worst thing you can be. And as far as I can see, its this insistance on being treated like the untouchable holier-than-thou martyr race of the Earth which causes much of the resentment that people feel toward them.how many years the poles or any other race suffur or died from racism? how many other nations stat the total destruction of the poles as their main goal? how many racial statements said about the poles?
compare it to the jewish. now consider the total percent from the popolution. see the difference?
maybe their is racism against every race, but no racism is in the amount of the anti-semitism.

Europe is becoming anti-Semitic again for two main reasons:

One: The US is obviously pro-Israel and Europeans will do anything to be different from or defy the country which saved them from the worst anti-Semitics in history.

That is a ridiculous claim. Europe doesn't do the opposite to the US just as a knee-jerk reaction.

Also, the US didn't act unilateralyl in WWII, as the above seems to infer.

Two: The somewhat true stereotype that Jewish people are good with money. Because many Jewish people have money (or are perceived to) the Socialists see them as an impediment to creating a classless society. This is the same reason that Stalin slaughtered Jews.

And its also the reason Trotsky was elected leader of the Petragrad soviet right?

Some crowbar definitions please though. Being anti-Israel is not the same as being anti-semitic. Being a socialist is not the same as being like Stalin.


I don't think it was Stalin.....He tried to ally with Israel by helping them during the Independence war and even gave the Jew's their own autonomous province...somewhere near China.

Some things to bear in mind though, 1, it was far far away. Stalin hoped it would be like "out of sight, out of mind." 2. They were hardly sent to the most hospitable part of Russia, he probably thought they community there would starve to death.

Europe has a sort of tradition of giving Jews their own autonomous communities. Stops them mixing with the oh so good Christian population.


Second, so it's ok to hate a whole people because of the (in my view non-existant) actions of the its leaders? It's ok to hate the Germans because of Hitler? No, it's not.


You are the one claiming that anti-Israeli = anti-semitic.

On the whole anti-Israel type people aren't anti-semitic, some are even Jewish.


This may have been his foreign policy but the fact is he killed millions of Jewish farmers who wouldn’t conform to his tyrannical cooperative policies.

The adjective "Jewish" is unnessasery there. Stalin killed many farmers (kulaks?) who wouldn't conform to his collectivist policies.

He didn't single out the Jewish farmers or anything. He sent all who opposed him to the gulags or whatever, irrespective of ethnicity or whatever.


They fought battles openly. They raided military targets and on occasion, rare occasion some colonials attacked civilians. This kind of action was not supported very much by the leadership and was not part of a concerted strategy by them.

Though in all honestly, there was a huge ocean in between the locations of the American revolution and where most British people lived.

Are you seriously comparing Jews to the Nazis… the Nazis!?! This is the kind o anti-Semitism that can’t be reasoned with.

Wow, what a knee-jerk reaction. Though it doesn't help any, nor does it respond to the point.

And because I'm feeling a little silly. The Nazis breathed, Israeli government officials breath.

OMG, I just drew a comparison between the two. Doesn't mean anything though.


Remember that many Jews consider Israel to be their promised land, a gift from God to them.

Many Jews also believe that the Jewish diaspora was a curse from God meaning they could not return to Israel until the messiah came.

Of course the Jews that think that don't have guns, or the ears of politicians. So they aren't as widely listened too.

*sigh* I wished separation of Church and state really existed and was a widely followed policy :(

I'd like to see you make that argument, considering I was raised in a predominatly Jewish town and I have some Jewish relatives.

Means nothing that. Like the neo-Nazi claiming he isn't racist because he grew up in the ghetto (No, I'm not calling you a neo-Nazis, just saying that logic doesn't fly)

Deleuze:

As a European, I have to agree with Arridia on this matter. I think some of the things you read may come as a shock to you because you are used to a rather pro-Israel perspective, which simply does not exist here.

There are antisemites in Europe, but they are not in the majority. Jews are integrated in European societies. The major of the capital of my country (Amsterdam) is a secular Jew and this is not a problem. The main problem that Jews are having is not from the indigenous European population but rather problems between Muslim minorities and Jewish minorities. Those are the cases where there is violence.

The problem that “white” Europeans have with Israel is political, not ethnic. And yes, many Europeans feel strongly about Israel and the Israeli occupation. I would strongly contest, however, that the source of this is Nazism as some have implied. It is sincere disgust with Israeli policies.

EDIT: also check out links by OceanDrive below. Israel HAS targeted civilians, it has done illegal executions, it has stolen land from Palestinians, killled babies, etc. I'm not saying the Palestinians are clean, but the Israeli state has a pretty horrible record.

Israel never targets civilians intentionally. It was cleared by every international human rights organization on these charges, in particular the Jenin calumny.
riiiiiight...and Paris Hilton is a Virgin :rolleyes:

http://www.redcross.ie/news/news.php3?item=114
http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/
http://www.derechos.org/human-rights/mena/iot.html
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE151432002
http://www.ifrc.org/docs/news/02/042302/

Red Cross from the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1930295.stm

It's really bad. And I mean, really bad. This Wall Street Journal article starts with some hopeful news, but...

I've bolded some of the really bad parts.

The quotes that you put in bold are almost all criticisms of Israeli foriegn policy, not Jewish people in general. If you want people to take you seriously, please make the distinction between anti-semtism and criticizing a regime or state.

If someone attacks the Saddam regime and its policies, they should not be labelled as anti-Arab or rascist, neither should somone who critizes the Bush administration and its policies be labelled as anti-christian or anti-white.

The quotes that you put in bold are almost all criticisms of Israeli foriegn policy, not Jewish people in general. If you want people to take you seriously, please make the distinction between anti-semtism and criticizing a regime or state.

If someone attacks the Saddam regime and its policies, they should not be labelled as anti-Arab or rascist, neither should somone who critizes the Bush administration and its policies be labelled as anti-christian or anti-white.
I suspect you didn't read the article closely enough. The quotes from Le Monde make generalizing statements about Jews as a people. Some of the cartoons "Semitize" Ariel Sharon's figure, hardly a legitimite criticism of Israel.

The worst, in my mind, was the posting of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" on the website of Italy's leading newspaper, and insinuating it explains American foreign policy. For those of you who aren't familiar with this slander, it was written by the Russian Tzars in order to direct popular discontent at the Jews rather than their own misrule. It worked damn well - Russian pogroms killed thousands of Jews. Presenting this work as fact and then saying it explains US foriegn policy is tantamount to saying the Jews run America and dictate its policies, and that they have a secret plan to take over the world. That is undeniably anti-Semitic, as is the cartoon depicting an Israeli tank attacking the baby Jesus - I thought we were over the "Jews killed Jesus, so it's ok to hate them" times.

And most of the "criticisms of Israel" cross the line. Do you remember the shitstorm when MoveOn.org released an ad that vaguely compared Bush and Hitler? It was an enormous controversy in the United States. How come no one cares when it happens to Israeli politicians?

Oh, and OceanDrive, where you drew the support for your assertion that Israel deliberately attacks civilians from those links is beyond me. I searched each document for the word "target." Only two of the links contained the word anywhere near "civilian." Neither of them makes the claim that Israel ever deliberately meant to hurt civilians. The closest they come to that is the phrase "gross negligence." In fact, one of your articles provides a more effective defense then I ever could:

The orders are clear: target and paralyse anyone who takes up weapons and tries to oppose our troops, resists them or endangers them - and to avoid harming the civilian population."

The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad(17), which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)(18).

I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammed! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill

I really shouldn't have to write anything else.

EDIT: also check out links by OceanDrive below. Israel HAS targeted civilians, it has done illegal executions, it has stolen land from Palestinians, killled babies, etc. I'm not saying the Palestinians are clean, but the Israeli state has a pretty horrible record.israel surely isn't perfect. I will not deny that.
but compared with other nations, the israeli actions are nothing. USA, Russia and France act with much more violence against terrorists. the world never criticize them together half from the times it was against israel.

when was the last time that someone was against other nation's right to exist? somehow, when it is about israel it become legitemate debate.

in the last survey I saw almost half of the europens claim that israel "using the holocust", and third said the jewish rule the economy. your objectivism is to blame israel for everything, without even check the facts or tell something about the palastinian corruption and terror.

europe is full with anti-semitism. say it is only the muslims fault is what europe do perfect- blame others for her problems.

So Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Tell us something new. The fact that some in the Palestinian resistance are performing hideous acts does not make the Israeli state 'clean'. One crime does not erase another.

The crimes of the Israeli state are well-documented. Unless of course you subscribe to the idea that left-wing Europeans are all randomly hating Jews because they are secretly fascist.

I do not think the criticisms of Israel cross the line. They are harsh, admittedly, but they raise very serious issues of life and death. I am very glad to live on a continent where freedom of speech is not repressed and where people can say these things - even if they are outright rude.

It annoys me therefore that any criticism of Israel is immediately placed in the context of antisemitism, using the holocaust to further an agenda now. My own family (non-Jewish) was in concentration camps also in the second World War. You don't hear me crying about it when people criticise something I am doing now.

Green israel: oh, yes, we are all very pro-Muslim here. :rolleyes: I really wish that Jews and Muslims would stop exporting their conflict and fighting it out in the suburbs of Paris, Brussels and Berlin. All Europeans want is for it to stop.

So Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Tell us something new. The fact that some in the Palestinian resistance are performing hideous acts does not make the Israeli state 'clean'. One crime does not erase another.
The point was comparative. I posted the standing orders of Israeli soldiers - "Do not target civilians." I posted the standing orders of Hamas - "Kill all the Jews." This pretty clearly refutes the statement that Israel targets civilians, is carrying out a Holocaust against the Palestinians, and that they deserve more blame then the Palestinian side.

The crimes of the Israeli state are well-documented. Unless of course you subscribe to the idea that left-wing Europeans are all randomly hating Jews because they are secretly fascist.
I read all of OceanDrive's sources. I've read countless books and articles on this subject. And, in fact, these "crimes" are not well-documented. No one denies that the situation in the West Bank is terrible. But there's a war going on. Whenever the Israeli government offers concessions, there's a corresponding spike in suicide bombing rates. Countless Israeli civilians die. Then Israel retaliates, and the world condemns Israel. It's beyond me.

I'll admit Israel has done some bad things (particularly in Lebanon); I believe it's almost impossible to blameless in a situation like this. I'm just saying Israel gets much more flak than it deserves. Calling them Nazis is absurd to the point of offense.

I do not think the criticisms of Israel cross the line. They are harsh, admittedly, but they raise very serious issues of life and death. I am very glad to live on a continent where freedom of speech is not repressed and where people can say these things - even if they are outright rude.
Again, that's fine, but in no country can you "shout fire in a crowded building." This is the equivalent - inflaming sentiments against one ethnic group via "mainstream" newspapers is not safe, protected speech.

Additionally, you can raise life-and-death issues without referencing Nazis. This is deliberately designed to erase any conceptions that Jews may sometimes be the victims that came about during the Holocaust.

It annoys me therefore that any criticism of Israel is immediately placed in the context of antisemitism, using the holocaust to further an agenda now. My own family (non-Jewish) was in concentration camps also in the second World War. You don't hear me crying about it when people criticise something I am doing now.
Pot/kettle.

It's not. Saying you have a problem with (for example) the wall, because it violates accepted standards of human rights, would not be anti-Semitic. Saying Israel is unnecessarily starving Palestinian civilians, not anti-Semitic. Saying Israel is a nation of Nazis and that Jews are all hook-nosed, kippah-wearing, moneylending connivers would be. And that's what was written in some of these articles. Read the first post again.

Jeez, we're supposed to be Anti-Semite now? And no-one told me? Bloody E.U regulations, it's getting ridiculous. Alright, how's this,

*ahem*

Hitler was right, they should all be gassed!

Better? I swear, I dunno where those bureocrats in Brussels will stop.

Green israel: oh, yes, we are all very pro-Muslim here. :rolleyes: I really wish that Jews and Muslims would stop exporting their conflict and fighting it out in the suburbs of Paris, Brussels and Berlin. All Europeans want is for it to stop.yes our conflict. you still has no problems get involved in it, and surprisely take the palastinian side without any debt. come on, if someone remind you the palastinian terror, you will said immadiately that he pro-israeli radical and has to learn about the suffurness of the palastinians.
you want it to stop? so, why you support the terrorists? why you think that arrafat was a hero? why you funded the terror and ignore their corruption? why can't you think about solutions that aren't include destruction of israel (as jewish state or totally)?

I am israeli leftist, I for europe compared to usa (socially espaically), and I still think you are anti-semitic contient. nothing ever proved otherwise (almost all the leaders aren't, as I know). however the survey showed it isn't correct about the populace, and the press debating skill, show you come to the israeli conflicts with an anti-semitic world view. the language you use about israel is nothing but racial hate talk.

I really wish that Jews and Muslims would stop exporting their conflict and fighting it out in the suburbs of Paris, Brussels and Berlin. All Europeans want is for it to stop.
You are saying it as if BOTH sides are equally to blame. I am yet to hear about Jews firebombing mosques or Muslim schools in Europe- while Muslim radicals firebombing Jewish schools and synagogues has been a fairly common occurance.

I still think you are anti-semitic contient. nothing ever proved otherwise

Or maybe we don't much care about either religion. Both sides ae in the wrong. Standing orders mean nothing. Palestinians are discriminated aganst at all levels, thy pay 4x what Israelis do for water, they have to go through checkpoints simply to get to school. Trigger-happy Israeli soldiers take pot-shots for no apparent reason, either to panic peple or to destroy objects like water tanks. Israei bulldozers and tanks smash through fields and orchards, destroying livelihoods and homes.

In return the palestinians suicide bomb and shoot at Israeli soldiers in a futile attempt to do real damage.

And whoever mentioned the holocaust. 12 MILLION chinese were killed in the Japanese holocaust but no-one cares. Let's not talk about how the Jews got it worst.

Not many people are implying that the Israeli state is carrying out a Holocaust against the Palestinians. (Interesting to use that word again.) I would rather this not become yet another debate about Israeli policy in general. I’m sure you are quite able to defend west bank settlements and car bomb executions etc quite well – the issue you started the thread for however was your accusation that Europeans are antisemitic.

This is simply not true.

Criticisms are directed against Israeli government policies, not against the Jewish race. Our sympathy is with the plight of the Palestinian people, not with radical Islam or with suicide bombers.

This goes for the vast majority of progressive/liberal/leftist Europeans who are the people being accused in your article. If you want to believe that these left-wing people (with whom you seem to get along well otherwise) also hate Jews out of pure racism…. *sigh*

The “Progressive Europe = Antisemite” lobby is a lobby of Zionists (‘hawks’, if using the term ‘Zionist’ is anti-Semite too in your book) and conservatives to discredit criticisms on their appalling actions. Go right ahead if you want to believe them over actual progressive Europeans like me and Arridia telling you otherwise. (Because they/we are more or less are the ones on trial here).

Criticisms are directed against Israeli government policies, not against the Jewish race. Our sympathy is with the plight of the Palestinian people, not with radical Islam or with suicide bombers.
Theoretically. However, I've seen far too many slipping over the line to give the "progressives" any kind of immunity from charges of anti-Semitism or terrorist sympathizing. See the post I've just made in that other thread on anti-Semitism for further details.

Theoretically. However, I've seen far too many slipping over the line to give the "progressives" any kind of immunity from charges of anti-Semitism or terrorist sympathizing. See the post I've just made in that other thread on anti-Semitism for further details.

No, not theoretically. Myself, and progressives in general have been accused in this debate (repeatedly) of "supporting terrorism", "funding terrorism" (!), "anti-semitism" and (indirectly) having nazi ideas.

I think it is high time to conclude that many Israelis and Americans have a bad case of "Anti-Europeanism", making wild accusations and ascribing motives to other people. I think I'll be the judge of what my motives are, thankyouverymuch. I do not need anyone else to do that for me, and neither does Europe. Left-wing Europeans are not racist. It conflicts with the very core of being a progressive person.

And please, I am not going to trawl all over the general forum to find some post. You can at least link it if you are not going to restate your point here.

Not many people are implying that the Israeli state is carrying out a Holocaust against the Palestinians. (Interesting to use that word again.)
The reason I did this was because most of the things in the original article were asserting that Israel was the same as Nazi Germany. That's what I'm saying is at the least wrong, at the worst anti-Semitic.

I would rather this not become yet another debate about Israeli policy in general.
I agree. OceanDrive's off-topic pseudo-trolling got to me. Apologies.

I’m sure you are quite able to defend west bank settlements and car bomb executions etc quite well – the issue you started the thread for however was your accusation that Europeans are antisemitic.
Right.

As for the settlements (brief aside): God, no! They're a terrible idea and an impediment to peace.

This is simply not true.
I'm saying that it's undeniable that an anti-Semitic element has permeated European society - on the far left and the far right, it's OK to perpetuate and propound stereotypes against Jews (albeit for different reasons). This article was to indicate that it's not as extreme as even I thought.

Criticisms are directed against Israeli government policies, not against the Jewish race. Our sympathy is with the plight of the Palestinian people, not with radical Islam or with suicide bombers.
That's just not always true. I cited at least three examples from the article in the post which blame and criticize Jews, not Israel, for the world's problems, not just Israel. And a lot of the time, the "it's just Israel" line is cover. I explained those cases in my last post - calling Israel a Nazi state isn't criticizing Israeli government policies. Isolating problems with their treatment of Palestinians is.

This goes for the vast majority of progressive/liberal/leftist Europeans who are the people being accused in your article. If you want to believe that these left-wing people (with whom you seem to get along well otherwise) also hate Jews out of pure racism…. *sigh*
I'm not saying that most do. I'm saying that some do, it's a problem, and we can't pretend it doesn't exist. Same thing with the United States and prejudice against blacks. Not everyone is racist, but there are enough people that something needs to be done about it. Racism in the United States is undeniable.

Just because two people agree on one thing doesn't mean they'd agree on everything.

The “Progressive Europe = Antisemite” lobby is a lobby of Zionists (‘hawks’, if using the term ‘Zionist’ is anti-Semite too in your book) and conservatives to discredit criticisms on their appalling actions. Go right ahead if you want to believe them over actual progressive Europeans like me and Arridia telling you otherwise. (Because they/we are more or less are the ones on trial here).
You personally are not being placed on trial. See my analogy to the United States and racism. Anti-Semitic elements exist, and we can't just pretend that they're just criticizing Israel.

You two, I'm sure, aren't anti-Semitic. But listen to some of the people on your side of the aisle closely. I don't like a lot of Democratic positions in the US - on gay marriage, many Democrats are appalling. We can't accept what our allies say just because they're our allies.

No, not theoretically. Myself, and progressives in general have been accused in this debate (repeatedly) of "supporting terrorism", "funding terrorism" (!), "anti-semitism" and (indirectly) having nazi ideas.
Nope, nope, and nope. Or at least, not by me. Any mentions of terrorism were in context of a debate over the policies of the two gropus - not accusing anyone of supporting it.

Although I am very critical of many of the actions of the state of Israel I would defend its existence and I despise all forms of anti-semitism which I believe is a capitalist attempt to weaken the solidarity of the international working class. Sadly anti-semitism has existed for a long time in Europe and although the horrors of the Holocaust certainly made people aware of its consequences I do believe there has recently been a recurrence of it from certain sections of European society. The sort of media coverage referred to in the article is totally unacceptable and should strongly be campaigned against as it merely serves to promote such anti-semitic lies and propaganda. The following speech was made by Lenin in 1919:

Anti-Semitism means spreading enmity towards the Jews. When the accursed tsarist monarchy was living its last days it tried to incite ignorant workers and peasants against the Jews. The tsarist police, in alliance with the landowners and the capitalists, organised pogroms against the Jews. The landowners and capitalists tried to divert the hatred of the workers and peasants who were tortured by want against the Jews. In other countries, too, we often see the capitalists fomenting hatred against the Jews in order to blind the workers, to divert their attention from the real enemy of the working people, capital. Hatred towards the Jews persists only in those countries where slavery to the landowners and capitalists has created abysmal ignorance among the workers and peasants. Only the most ignorant and downtrodden people can believe the lies and slander that are spread about the Jews. This is a survival of ancient feudal times, when the priests burned heretics at the stake, when the peasants lived in slavery, and when the people were crushed and inarticulate. This ancient, feudal ignorance is passing away; the eyes of the people are being opened.

It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers, who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism. Among the Jews there are kulaks, exploiters and capitalists, just as there are among the Russians, and among people of all nations. The capitalists strive to sow and foment hatred between workers of different faiths, different nations and different races. Those who do not work are kept in power by the power and strength of capital. Rich Jews, like rich Russians, and the rich in all countries, are in alliance to oppress, crush, rob and disunite the workers.

Shame on accursed tsarism which tortured and persecuted the Jews. Shame on those who foment hatred towards the Jews, who foment hatred towards other nations.

Long live the fraternal trust and fighting alliance of the workers of all nations in the struggle to overthrow capital.

Im a jew and I kno that wen jews were persecuted thru out europe they were given refuge in Turkey, so dat shows u can't categorise evry1

Im a jew and I kno that wen jews were persecuted thru out europe they were given refuge in Turkey, so dat shows u can't categorise evry1
Back in the day, the Jews and the Muslims had fantastic interreligious relations. Muslim Spain was a paradise for Jews, much better than the Christian half. I'm not sure how this is relevant to the current discussion.

Look at what people like The Holy Womble and Green Israel are saying, Del.

The issue is this: I strongly contest that "an anti-Semitic element has permeated European society". You are right that antisemitism exists on the far right (and that anti-Israeli sentiments are particularly strong on the far left) but these respectable and liberal newspapers criticising Israel are surely not the extremists you were talking about!

To a certain extent, the problems of the world are caused by the problems in Israel, which is the focal point for the 'clash of civilisations' now taking place. For most Americans it is easy: Israel and the United states are on the same side, in opposition to Islamic Terrorism (tm). Europeans are in the grinding mill in-between when it comes to this conflict, and I think many Europeans are subconsciously terrified at the idea of becoming a cultural battleground in this 'clash of civilisations'. You have to understand, this drives much of the psyche of the European political elite. I live in the Netherlands myself, surely you have heard about the problems we have with Muslims here. 17% of our population is immigrant. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict isn’t something far away that you can write detached analyses about. It is very real. People firebomb Muslim schools, synagogues go up in flames, Moroccan gangs beat up Jewish-looking people, molotov cocktails are thrown into Mosques... We have a serious problem indeed. However, this problem is not that the liberal and progressive Europeans are antisemitic.

Most of us lack the natural sympathy with Israel and therefore also do not use the niceties you expect us to use in criticising them. Just look at, say, the USA presidential campaign or the veracity of the pundits in the culture wars within the United States. Yes, maybe the debate could be more civilised, but the debate has never been civilised when peoples identities and peoples sense of security are at state. You claiming that racism is a motive is, emotionally, about on par with calling some people “anti-American” or “unpatriotic” unless they go for “centrist” positions. It is damaging to the debate and it misdjudges the European situation.

I hope this little digression was somewhat enlightening.

Back in the day, the Jews and the Muslims had fantastic interreligious relations. Muslim Spain was a paradise for Jews, much better than the Christian half. I'm not sure how this is relevant to the current discussion.
Well, considering Jews and Arabs living inside Israel (I'm not counting Arabic countries vs Israel itself) lived together in relative peace and tolerance until Yassir Arafat hijacked the "Palestinian Cause™" and started most of this ruckus...it makes you wonder...especially considering the Nobel morons gave Arafat a peace prize. :headbang:

Well Israel and the arab states went to war repeatedly, 56, 67, 73, sometme in the 80's. Quite frankly it's been a cluster-fuck since 48. ndividuals can work things out and live together. The detached 'leaders' see it as a war and so it will continue.

The worst, in my mind, was the posting of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" on the website of Italy's leading newspaper, and insinuating it explains American foreign policy. For those of you who aren't familiar with this slander, it was written by the Russian Tzars in order to direct popular discontent at the Jews rather than their own misrule.

We personally I view the actions of the paper as disgusting.

The Protocols are of unknown authorship and were presented to Tzar Nicolas II by one Sergie Nilus in order to stir up anti-semitic hatred, and hopefully initiate pogroms. They were meant to have been minutes from the International Judaic conference that met in Basle in the 1890's. Not trying to say that Russia wasn't an anti-semitic country at the time though. The mass emmigration of Eastern European Jews in the 1880 till the early 1900's is testement to that. (Not that they recieved much better treatement in Britain though. Both British workers and establish British Jewish families were horrified at what was coming)

The Protocols have been traced back to earlier forms that don't even mention jews... the piece was adapted from pre-existing radical propaganda that had no connection to jews.

The Protocols have been traced back to earlier forms that don't even mention jews... the piece was adapted from pre-existing radical propaganda that had no connection to jews.

Interesting. Do you have any futher information you can point me too?

Two: The somewhat true stereotype that Jewish people are good with money. Because many Jewish people have money (or are perceived to) the Socialists see them as an impediment to creating a classless society. This is the same reason that Stalin slaughtered Jews.

Excuse me? Tell that to my friend Rivi who has seven brothers and sisters, and lives in a house which is owned by the Jewish community center, since her family can't afford adequate housing.

This whole thing with Jews being better with money is just silly.

For starters, there are loads of anti-cap Jews, like Noam Chomsky, me, Leon Trotsky... The list goes on.

Secondly, Orthodox Jews are not exceptionally wealthy, because, like Catholics, they don't believe in birth control. No one is wealthy when they have seven or eight kids to feed.

Russia was, and is still, one of the most anti-semetic countries in the world. My great uncle, his wife, and their children were killed in a pogrom. My family fled to Canada three generations ago to escape the violence.

No, not theoretically. Myself, and progressives in general have been accused in this debate (repeatedly) of "supporting terrorism", "funding terrorism" (!), "anti-semitism" and (indirectly) having nazi ideas.
Such accusations are not necesserily unjustified or unfounded. Show me what precisely you have said to deserve this accusation, and I will tell you if it was right.

The Counterpunch, one of the leading "progressive" points of reference on the internet, is permeated from top to bottom with quotes and references to the notorious Russian born anti-Semite Israel Shamir. His name appear quoted in the writings of all leading Counterpunch contributors- Cockburn, Neumann, you name it. And I am talking about the guy who openly perpetrates the "Christ killers" libel and made explicit references to the blood libel on more than one occasion. Another such anti-Semite, Gilad Atzmon, has been known to be a writer for Counterpunch. (He is famous for demanding that Israel apologizes to the Christians for killing Jesus). So the Counterpunch writers- and yes, also the readers who still regard that website as a decent source- are at the very list anti-Semitism apologists.

yeah...yeah..yeah...but you are not adressing my point.

how long before some crybaby pulls the Hollocaust?

Seems like it was you who brought up the Holocaust. Hmmm...

the hollocast has ended..and when it was all over ...many Jews have profited from the world sympaty..and still do today.

Slavery has almost ended...but very-very-very few victims have ever got any kind of compensation.

Yes, we all know that many Jews are secretly celebrating the holocaust and how they have gotten so much from it. They say it in their prayers - "Oh thank you, God, for your wisdom in allowing Hitler to kill millions of Jews. We are so fortunate." /Sarcasm You should try visiting this place sometime that many of us call reality. In it, the holocaust ended AFTER slavery and very few count themselves lucky for either having happened.

how many years the poles or any other race suffur or died from racism?

The Poles? Hundreds of years, thanks. I would also refer you to African Americans, Native Americans, Turks in China, etc, etc.

how many other nations stat the total destruction of the poles as their main goal?

One. The same one that stated the total destruction of the Jewish race as their main goal. Germany, as it were. And the Germans were practicing this policy against the Poles long before they turned their attention to the Jews. You should read Mein Kampf, both races are singled out by Hitler for purging. Hitler also had a very specific plan for the suppression and extermination of the Polish race, which I could find online links to in English, if you are interested. For earlier German persecution of Poles, I would refer you to the 19th century Prussian "hakata" projects.

how many racial statements said about the poles?

I've taken alot of flack for being only half-Polish in my life. Commonly heard statements: "Polaks are thieves.", "Polaks are drunks.", "Polaks are stupid.", "Polaks stole German land.", "Poland isn't a real country.", and my personal favorite, "Poles killed Jews.".

But this isn't about me feeling like a poor persecuted Pole. When people say shit like this, I simply dismiss them as being cretins, and go on with my life. I don't accuse them of hate crimes and insist they be scourned by society and preferably jailed or executed. People have the right to be ignorant. People have the right to dislike Poles. People have the right to dislike Jews as well. You aren't immune to scrutiny. And like I said, perhaps it is this hyperactive need to destroy all those opposed to Israel or Jews in general that makes others resent your people so much. Maybe you should join the rest of the world, and get over yourselves.

compare it to the jewish. now consider the total percent from the popolution. see the difference?

No, not really.

maybe their is racism against every race, but no racism is in the amount of the anti-semitism.

First of all, I disagree. Secondly, if you truly believe that the world is so anti-semitic, perhaps you should ask yourself why. Why this widespread hatred of Jews? Why this persecution? Have you ever even considered that you somehow provoke this supposedly irrational hatred toward you? Maybe its time you started looking at yourselves, instead of pointing the finger at anyone who dares to oppose you.

The issue is this: I strongly contest that "an anti-Semitic element has permeated European society". You are right that antisemitism exists on the far right (and that anti-Israeli sentiments are particularly strong on the far left) but these respectable and liberal newspapers criticising Israel are surely not the extremists you were talking about!
I mean, the evidence would indicate to the contrary. Please, read the article one more time. Note in particular the Le Monde editorial and the Protocols fiasco in Italy. The former makes generalizations about Jews as a people, and the latter does so also while not even having the pretext of a discussion of Israel. What do you say in defense of those specific articles?

To a certain extent, the problems of the world are caused by the problems in Israel, which is the focal point for the 'clash of civilisations' now taking place. For most Americans it is easy: Israel and the United states are on the same side, in opposition to Islamic Terrorism (tm). Europeans are in the grinding mill in-between when it comes to this conflict, and I think many Europeans are subconsciously terrified at the idea of becoming a cultural battleground in this 'clash of civilisations'. You have to understand, this drives much of the psyche of the European political elite. I live in the Netherlands myself, surely you have heard about the problems we have with Muslims here. 17% of our population is immigrant. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict isn’t something far away that you can write detached analyses about. It is very real. People firebomb Muslim schools, synagogues go up in flames, Moroccan gangs beat up Jewish-looking people, molotov cocktails are thrown into Mosques... We have a serious problem indeed. However, this problem is not that the liberal and progressive Europeans are antisemitic.
I see where you're coming from here. And I don't think most individual European liberals are anti-Semitic. I'm just saying there are some, and we can't wish them away by saying most aren't. It's hard to deny the things cited in the article.

Most of us lack the natural sympathy with Israel and therefore also do not use the niceties you expect us to use in criticising them. Just look at, say, the USA presidential campaign or the veracity of the pundits in the culture wars within the United States. Yes, maybe the debate could be more civilised, but the debate has never been civilised when peoples identities and peoples sense of security are at state. You claiming that racism is a motive is, emotionally, about on par with calling some people “anti-American” or “unpatriotic” unless they go for “centrist” positions. It is damaging to the debate and it misdjudges the European situation.
Not calling people Nazis is not a nicety. It's a prerequisite to having a discussion. I don't call all pro-Palestinian people terrorists and murders, and that's not nearly as bad. If the Europeans are terrified about being the middle of a culture war, why take sides?

Obviously the middle of millions of Muslims was not the right place to create a Jewish state.

they should try to seek a home elsewhere in Europe or America...far from Arablands.

Why? Because you say so? They chose a land that they consider sacred, as do Christians and Muslims (as we all worship the same God). There reason for wanting to be there is the same as Muslims. What gives Muslims a better claim?

The Poles? Hundreds of years, thanks. I would also refer you to African Americans, Native Americans, Turks in China, etc, etc.yeah hundreds of years. we had more than 4 thousands.

One. The same one that stated the total destruction of the Jewish race as their main goal. Germany, as it were. And the Germans were practicing this policy against the Poles long before they turned their attention to the Jews. You should read Mein Kampf, both races are singled out by Hitler for purging. Hitler also had a very specific plan for the suppression and extermination of the Polish race, which I could find online links to in English, if you are interested. For earlier German persecution of Poles, I would refer you to the 19th century Prussian "hakata" projects.maybe I wrong, but as I know hitler din't state the destruction of the europe-eastern races. he want them as cheap labor force that will provide germany with food and resucres.
still, there is at least 10 different cultures that want to kill the jews. even not close to the others.



I've taken alot of flack for being only half-Polish in my life. Commonly heard statements: "Polaks are thieves.", "Polaks are drunks.", "Polaks are stupid.", "Polaks stole German land.", "Poland isn't a real country.", and my personal favorite, "Poles killed Jews.".[quote]poles really killed jews. I don't blame all of them, as I don't blame all the germans for the nazis acts, but this is undeniable facts. many poles help hitler, poles made pogrom against jewish in the start of the 20th cenutry and before, and some poles even killed scores of jews that tried to back to their occupied homes. compare that statement with "the jews killed the massiah", is bad idea. and I don't remember anyone say that the poles control the world, everything is their fault, and they all barbaric evils that try to destroy the culture.
every race had streotipes. no streotipes are like the jewish ones.
[quote]But this isn't about me feeling like a poor persecuted Pole. When people say shit like this, I simply dismiss them as being cretins, and go on with my life. I don't accuse them of hate crimes and insist they be scourned by society and preferably jailed or executed. People have the right to be ignorant. People have the right to dislike Poles. People have the right to dislike Jews as well.those streotipe kill. how many jews should die because of that hate talk before you understand that? words lead to acts, and the damage can't retaken.
you want criticize israel? do it without using anti-semite streotipes and racial language.
You aren't immune to scrutiny. And like I said, perhaps it is this hyperactive need to destroy all those opposed to Israel or Jews in general that makes others resent your people so much. Maybe you should join the rest of the world, and get over yourselves.yeah, join the rest of the world. good idea. you think we didn't tried it?
israel gave the arabs peace and they gave terror. then you blame us, because of the war.
europe evict most of the jews from there, and then put her hate on the jews from israel.
israel can't be part of asia, africa, or sout america because of they will not let us. the UN is against us. if it wasn't USA the world would be glad to destroy us.

First of all, I disagree. Secondly, if you truly believe that the world is so anti-semitic, perhaps you should ask yourself why. Why this widespread hatred of Jews? Why this persecution? Have you ever even considered that you somehow provoke this supposedly irrational hatred toward you? Maybe its time you started looking at yourselves, instead of pointing the finger at anyone who dares to oppose you.I guess you are one of those that blame hitted woman because "it is her fault that her husband punch her". we are the victims her. check yourselves, before you blame us for your anti-semitism. it would be a change, because you used to blame us for everything.

I seem to recall some interesting column-inches a few years back about how the death of the Soviet Empire was making life even harder for Jews in Eastern Europe-apparently, the Russkies were sitting on the local hate-groups for PR reasons, no russkies, and some were taking it as a sign to let the Pogroms begin.

It's interesting also to note that Europe effectively created Israel by fiat, then abandoned it as soon as they could get away with it. I think there's a case for pervasive antisemitism in Europe, just like there's a case for it in the Americas (although perhaps, jsut perhaps, a bit less pervasive.).

I wonder, personally, if this isn't one of the motivating factors behind European sentiments favouring Appeasement policies in regards to the Arab/Israeli situation-in spite of the demonstrated lack of success Appeasement has had anywhere it's been tried.

As a nation, Israel has won the right to survive, by surviving. It has survived four wars, any number of embargoes, constant terrorism, diplomatic isolation, and a whole host of other messy things.

Deleuze:
With regards to the articles, they only cited a few lines from the the Le Monde editorial, out of context, so I am hardly one to judge that analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. To speak of the Zionist idea and the Jenin massacre certainly doesn’t go too far for me. Saying Jews are "a contemptuous people taking satisfaction in humiliating others” is over the line, I’d say, but that is really the only thing I find truly offensive. The protocols… beh, it’s a historic document. Do note that, first of all, this paper did not write these protocols and, second of all, they are unlikely to be convincing nowadays because it is obviously a historical document. The Le Monde article was a discussion of Israel, as far as I can tell, but it was too sharp and therefore they were reprimanded. The system works.

Regarding niceties: Yes, a civilised debate would be admirable. But there never has been a civilised debate. And whatever Europeans do, they will be accused of anti-Semitism and supporting terrorism. European support for the PA is construed as “funding suicide bombers”, a European project to build a harbour in Gaza is bombed by Israel using American military machines… like debates on abortion this war is just rooted in deep feelings. Feelings of the other side are just as deep however, only hating Palestinians cannot be associated with some terrible genocide so it is PC. *shrug*

I met with a Green Member of the European parliament, speaking on this issue for a group. As he put it, Europe always needs to be balanced but in some way it is more credible if the Palestinians see us as someone they can at least trust, with America already being 100% behind Israel whatever it does. Our sympathies naturally lie with the oppressed people, but almost everyone in Europe agrees that we need a two-state solution. That isn’t antisemetic.

Well I quite agree with that thing about Israel being extremely mean to the palestinians, let's not forget that Israel was founded on a land that wasn't of their own, it was palestinian land, yes they argue all about being there before, but can't they remember that greeks, romans and other cultures vanished them from there? I don't hate Israel i hate its goverment and i'm sure a number of jews feel the same way, they are not all as their goverment is like.

They kill innocent children just because they have the right to stand up and defend their fatherland but look i'm sure some jews feel ashamed of this, yes of course there are jews that are such a pain in the ass, those are bound to be kicked, but the rest is people yet they are really strange, and well anti-semitism in europe is well-founded because you can see jews living in every country and claiming they are natives of that country which of course is a lie, tell me what would you do if a foreign starts to invade your land, not by militar power but by colonialism ( in my point of view sending a bunch of foreigners to another country peacefully ) perhaps not all these people are bad but some are it's human nature we can't deny it, if we go to another country to live we have to get a job won't we? and we steal that job from another hard-working native it isn't fair

Maybe France wants to rekindel its 'friendship' with the US! All this PC in the world has gone a bit too far. I thought it was receeding.

Old habits die hard...

Europe is becoming anti-Semitic again for two main reasons:

One: The US is obviously pro-Israel and Europeans will do anything to be different from or defy the country which saved them from the worst anti-Semitics in history.

Actually, the press exerpt that was mentioned here concerns in 99% of the cases attacks on the Israeli government, not "the Jews" (in fact, those two terms are not the same, mind you :rolleyes: ). And, indeed, most European governmental institutions dislike the way the Israeli government has gotten away with what some (or most) could consider genocide and terrorist actions, because for years the US has held its hand above Israel's head. It has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. But, I do agree, some (extreme) right-wing media and organisations have jumped on the wagon and launched an attack on the Jews in se - but I do think they hate everyone equally, since they also attacks Islamics, heathens, Catholics, Protestants, or whatever (not buddhists, though, everybody seems to like buddhists - lucky for me :p )

Two: The somewhat true stereotype that Jewish people are good with money. Because many Jewish people have money (or are perceived to) the Socialists see them as an impediment to creating a classless society. This is the same reason that Stalin slaughtered Jews.

LOL! So, seeing as I'm a socialist, I should dislike "the Jews". Ok then :rolleyes: . A few things to consider. Socialist don't exactly want a class-less society, but a society where classes (if there were any) would be treated equal and have equal chances - that's a subtle difference. Second, socialists throughout Europe have always condemned discrimantion towards any group, religious, national or economic - and rightfully so. Third: most of the time, said critique towards the Jewish financial aspect originates from right-wing economist thought (at least in my country), not left-wing - those days are past us by a few decades. What IS true, however, is that many socialist dislike Jew hardliners (the chassidim, for instance) because of their discriminatory behaviour towards others - not because of their financial activities.

And the Germans were practicing this policy against the Poles long before they turned their attention to the Jews. You ... For earlier German persecution of Poles, I would refer you to the 19th century Prussian "hakata" projects.
Polish people fought the Russians alongside the Germans in WWI. Actually, the modern Polish state was established by Germany as the won at Brest-Litowsk.
You are sounding a lot like a pole who dislikes Germans out of principle.


I've taken alot of flack for being only half-Polish in my life. Commonly heard statements: "Polaks are thieves.", "Polaks are drunks.", "Polaks are stupid.", "Polaks stole German land.", "Poland isn't a real country.", and my personal favorite, "Poles killed Jews.".
Please forgive me for this, but:
Every few months or so, a special garbage service came around and picked up old furniture, TVs, Washing Machines and so.
Every time, the streets were filled with vans with polish numberplates, who went through that trash and took it home to get it back running and/or sell it.
While that is entrepreneurial, and I only disliked them because they were driving like maniacs, it certainly doesn't help improve a German's impression of Poland.
And I never said anything bad about a Polish person, and I've known a few. I did "suffer" for being German though. The allegation of "Nazi", the hand readily risen when people walk past me and the like was quite common here in Australia.
-----------------------
Did anyone else watch the Ausländer raus! documentary on SBS Australia yesterday night? So very fitting, and so very funny... :p

yeah hundreds of years. we had more than 4 thousands.

What a load of bullshit.

maybe I wrong, but as I know hitler din't state the destruction of the europe-eastern races. he want them as cheap labor force that will provide germany with food and resucres.

Yes, you are wrong. I'm sorry for your ignorance.

still, there is at least 10 different cultures that want to kill the jews. even not close to the others.

Oh? Name them.

poles really killed jews. I don't blame all of them, as I don't blame all the germans for the nazis acts, but this is undeniable facts. many poles help hitler, poles made pogrom against jewish in the start of the 20th cenutry and before, and some poles even killed scores of jews that tried to back to their occupied homes.

I would recommend that you do some actual historical research before making such inflamatory statements. Its funny that some Jews feel the need to spread such vile lies about a people that gave them a safe sanctuary to live in and prosper for over five hundred years. But I'll bet you don't know anything about that, do you? Go do your research, and come back when you have something more than idiotic propaganda to offer.

compare that statement with "the jews killed the massiah", is bad idea. and I don't remember anyone say that the poles control the world, everything is their fault, and they all barbaric evils that try to destroy the culture.

Yes, you have it worse than anyone else, and for no reason whatsoever. Poor, poor Jews.

words lead to acts, and the damage can't retaken.

Who's words? Perhaps yours. Perhaps it is your vicious self-centered propaganda that "leads to acts". Ever think about that? Didn't think so.

you want criticize israel?

Where did I critisize Israel?

do it without using anti-semite streotipes and racial language.

Where did I do this? You seem to be a very confused person.

yeah, join the rest of the world. good idea. you think we didn't tried it?
israel gave the arabs peace and they gave terror. then you blame us, because of the war.

You obviously have no grasp on even your own history.

europe evict most of the jews from there, and then put her hate on the jews from israel.

Is this what they teach Jews in school? Because its a blatant untruth.

israel can't be part of asia, africa, or sout america because of they will not let us.

This statement makes no sense. Does the state of Israel want to conquer parts of Asia, Africa, and South America? I don't get it.

the UN is against us. if it wasn't USA the world would be glad to destroy us.

You've got to be kidding me. After a statement like this, I think you've proven my point very nicely. Thank you.

I guess you are one of those that blame hitted woman because "it is her fault that her husband punch her". we are the victims her. check yourselves, before you blame us for your anti-semitism. it would be a change, because you used to blame us for everything.

You are not the victims. You are not special. The world is sick of you screaming about anti-semitism and being victimized. Its gotten old. Nobody takes you seriously anymore, you hypocrit. How do you claim to be martyrs and victims, and then perform air raids over Palestinian settlements? You cause people to hate and resent you. By spreading lies about people who never did you any harm. By waging war on a people who's land you stole. By insisting that everyone treat you like a special case. By persecuting anyone who dares disagree with you twisted perception of reality. How sickening.

Polish people fought the Russians alongside the Germans in WWI.

There were also legions of Poles on the Russian side. Go figure.

Actually, the modern Polish state was established by Germany as the won at Brest-Litowsk.

This is simply untrue. I'd like to see a source for this supposed "fact".

You are sounding a lot like a pole who dislikes Germans out of principle.

For some reason, I find it ironic that you chose to capitalize "German", but not "Pole". By the way, I'm half German, and very proud to be such. Sorry to burst your bubble.


Please forgive me for this, but:
Every few months or so, a special garbage service came around and picked up old furniture, TVs, Washing Machines and so.
Every time, the streets were filled with vans with polish numberplates, who went through that trash and took it home to get it back running and/or sell it.
While that is entrepreneurial, and I only disliked them because they were driving like maniacs, it certainly doesn't help improve a German's impression of Poland.

What does this have to do with the topic? I'm not sure. Maybe you couldn't resist the chance to get an anecdote about Poles out. There's alot of German trash out there too. Who cares? /shrug

And I never said anything bad about a Polish person, and I've known a few. I did "suffer" for being German though. The allegation of "Nazi", the hand readily risen when people walk past me and the like was quite common here in Australia.

So, Jews are victimized, Germans are victimized, and Poles are Jew killing trash pickers? OK then. :rolleyes:

There were also legions of Poles on the Russian side. Go figure.
Conscripted ones, yes. Piludski founded the legion though, which fought alongside the germans against Russian rule over Poland. They were volunteers. And then he became boss later on.

This is simply untrue. I'd like to see a source for this supposed "fact".
The lands taken in the east were supposed to be nations under german control (including Poland). Yet without the treaty there never would have been a Poland.
Check wikipedia for brest-litovsk.


For some reason, I find it ironic that you chose to capitalize "German", but not "Pole". By the way, I'm half German, and very proud to be such. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Rest assured that there is no particular reason. I would like to ask you now: where do you live? Generally, the only people who refer to themselves as half-something (ie half-german or half-Pole) don't actually live there. Cuz if you were in Poland, you'd thing yourself Polish, if you were in germany, you'd think yourself german. Apart from the fact that it is highly suspicious when a german calls himself proud...
Not that there's a difference anyways.

I just have a problem when Polish people, and a lot of them do that, can't get over it. It's like they have to rub it in what the Nazis did.
If I remember correctly, when the war broke out Poland was quite happy about it. They were gonna be in berlin in two weeks, they said. This victimised position taken now didn't come along until much later.


Maybe you couldn't resist the chance to get an anecdote about Poles out. There's alot of German trash out there too.
I did appologise. You were just all to ready to present yourself as an innocent victim of some sort of racist german conspiracy (or at least that's what I read out of it). And I quoted the thing that was usually associated with Polish people in the town where I originally come from.

So, Jews are victimized, Germans are victimized, and Poles are Jew killing trash pickers? OK then. :rolleyes:
Everyone is victimised and it always takes two to tango.
And when did I say Polish people killed Jews? (apart from the few collaborateurs that existed in every country)
----------------
And I really don't wanna have this argument with you. I appologise for what I have said.

Slavery has almost ended...but very-very-very few victims have ever got any kind of compensation.
Bwahahahaahahahahahaha. Sorry, but such is not the case. In most of europe, Japan, Australia, and the Americas slavery is almost gone. China too, I think, not so sure however. Elsewhere, contrary to popular opinion it is well and thiving, if not officially condoned.

how many years the poles or any other race suffur or died from racism? how many other nations stat the total destruction of the poles as their main goal? how many racial statements said about the poles?
compare it to the jewish. now consider the total percent from the popolution. see the difference?
maybe their is racism against every race, but no racism is in the amount of the anti-semitism.
Actually, the roma have had the same problem that the jews have. The difference is that they are without things like the talmudic laws and other cultural paraphenilia that helps jews be successful.

And whoever mentioned the holocaust. 12 MILLION chinese were killed in the Japanese holocaust but no-one cares. Let's not talk about how the Jews got it worst.
Of course, communist china has killed more of it's own populace than the japanese did, but whatever.

Im a jew and I kno that wen jews were persecuted thru out europe they were given refuge in Turkey, so dat shows u can't categorise evry1
Yes and no. They were obviously treated as inferior(look up dhimmi on wikipedia) and depending on the sultan in charge at the time they might be run out of their homes or had things like their loans nullified. Difference was that the european royalty used pogroms to do that instead.

Yes, Le Monde is a despicable newspaper, which passes off subtle propaganda as commentary, and their views of the Israel-Palestine conflict is definitely akin to anti-semitism. There is a strange, and very scary rise of anti-semitic sentiment in Europe, but this is mainly due, although it's not PC to say it, to the immigrant muslim populations who share a much more radical view on the Israel-Palestine conflict and, like all uneducated, violent populations, tend to lash out on Jews at home for perceived crimes by the Israeli government against Palestinians. The fact that European society at large is vastly pro-Palestinian only condones and encourages this sentiment.

My neighborhood is starting to overflow with Jews moving in. I have no problem with this, far on the contrary, but I know that the reason why this is is that the historic Jewish areas of the city are having more and more muslim population, and the Jews there get harrassed.

Of course, not all muslims are like that, but the fact remains that, mostly due to our inability to integrate and educate those populations properly, the muslim populations in Europe cluster in communities instead of duluting in society, and the more they cluster the more radical and violent they become.

However, I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech and I don't think that this situation can be solved by coercion, and banning such speech from the media. I believe that, on the contrary, educating these populations and the population at large to the reality of the Israel-Palestine conflict and the beauty of Jewish culture and religion would be much more effective, and much more in line with Europe's civilization of human rights and social justice.

Africa is still suffering from the Black holocaust...and it went on for more than 2 years
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-atrocities-slaves-jewish-slave-ship-owners.html

I'm not saying everything going on in africa is fine and dandy, but the source of that article is one of the world's biggest and most prominent anti-semetic websites and shouldn't be quoted in seriousness, as it is gravely slanted.

I'm not saying everything going on in africa is fine and dandy, but the source of that article is one of the world's biggest and most prominent anti-semetic websites and shouldn't be quoted in seriousness, as it is gravely slanted.

so I guess all the following names come from their imagination...

slave trade ships:
Abigail
Crown
Nassau
Four Sisters
Anne & Eliza
Prudent Betty
Hester
Elizabeth
Antigua
Betsy
Polly
White Horse
Expedition
Charlotte
Caracoa

owners:
Aaron Lopez, Moses Levy, Jacob Franks
Issac Levy and Nathan Simpson
Moses Levy
Moses Levy
Justus Bosch and John Abrams
Henry Cruger and Jacob Phoenix
Mordecai and David Gomez
Mordecai and David Gomez
Nathan Marston and Abram Lyell
Wm. De Woolf
James De Woolf
Jan de Sweevts
John and Jacob Roosevelt
Moses and Sam Levy and Jacob Franks
Moses and Sam Levy

Source: Elizabeth Donnan, 4 Volumes, 'Documents Illustrative of the History of the Slave Trade to America' Washington, D.C. 1930, 1935 Carnegie Institute of Technology, Pittsburgh, Pa.

My God, someone realised that there are Anti-Semitics in Europe...stop the presses.

Please - between the Nazis, Mosley and the other nutters at the time, to today with Le Pen's mob and my nation's own "legitimate" hate group, the BNP, it isn't exactly a new phenomena. Anti-Semitism is all over the world, not just a problem for Europe.

......the liberal daily Cambio 16 published a cartoon of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (with a hook nose he does not have), wearing a skull cap (which he does not usually wear)......


Exagerating the features and costume of a national leader who is responsible for acts of war and human atrocities (however 'neccesary' these atrocities appear to certain people) is not anti-semitic. It happens to all major world leaders; George Bush with the cowboy hat, Saddam with a camel, etc.

Displaying Woody Allen, Ben Stiller, or Jerry Seinfeld with a hook-nose and a skull cap, now that would definately be anti-semitic. But then again I am sure you would not find any 'liberal' European daily doing something like that.

Besides Ariel Sharon does have a bit of a hook nose and does sometimes wear a skull cap (not that there is anything wrong with that) simply do a google image search for his name and you will see.

One question that springs to mind is:

Have you ever been to Europe? I think you are totally misunderstanding what modern europe is about, especially liberal European newspapers! If you are looking for European Anti-Semitism then you are looking in the wrong place. You should instead go and look at some Muslim publications, or a far right publication.

Exagerating the features and costume of a national leader who is responsible for acts of war and human atrocities (however 'neccesary' these atrocities appear to certain people) is not anti-semitic. It happens to all major world leaders; George Bush with the cowboy hat, Saddam with a camel, etc.
Costume, sure. Playing someone into stereotypes about a persecuted group? A bit off.

Have you ever been to Europe? I think you are totally misunderstanding what modern europe is about, especially liberal European newspapers! If you are looking for European Anti-Semitism then you are looking in the wrong place. You should instead go and look at some Muslim publications, or a far right publication.
On several occasions, in fact. Just because you wouldn't expect prejudice to be in one place doesn't mean it isn't there. I've read dozens of articles that say the exact same thing. Of course it's in the places you mentioned. No one really questions that. But not many people thought there was something wrong with the meat-packing industry before Upton Sinclair wrote The Jungle. We can't just assume that one place is totally blameless because of what they say or stand for.

Costume, sure. Playing someone into stereotypes about a persecuted group? A bit off.

Israel is a persecuted group now? Or maybe Ariel Sharon is a persecuted group in itself. (he certainly is big enough for it.)

If we can mock America and Russia (and I say we can) then we can certainly mock Ariel Sharon.

Well I quite agree with that thing about Israel being extremely mean to the palestinians, let's not forget that Israel was founded on a land that wasn't of their own, it was palestinian land, yes they argue all about being there before, but can't they remember that greeks, romans and other cultures vanished them from there? I don't hate Israel i hate its goverment and i'm sure a number of jews feel the same way, they are not all as their goverment is like.

They kill innocent children just because they have the right to stand up and defend their fatherland but look i'm sure some jews feel ashamed of this, yes of course there are jews that are such a pain in the ass, those are bound to be kicked, but the rest is people yet they are really strange, and well anti-semitism in europe is well-founded because you can see jews living in every country and claiming they are natives of that country which of course is a lie, tell me what would you do if a foreign starts to invade your land, not by militar power but by colonialism ( in my point of view sending a bunch of foreigners to another country peacefully ) perhaps not all these people are bad but some are it's human nature we can't deny it, if we go to another country to live we have to get a job won't we? and we steal that job from another hard-working native it isn't fair


Um... It's not the Jewish Israelis strapping bombs to their kids for cash.

http://www.honestreporting.com/images/oliphant.sharon.gif

The Antisemitism in France has never died unfortunately, infact it is just as pronounced as it was at the beggining of the century. It's a terrible truth i'm afraid, the Government needs to try to implement more religious tolerance in The Republic, as Chirac has, without much enthusiasm though.

-snip-
Right, now where are you from? Are you American, or European or Israeli or other?

You are trying to prove to Europeans that they really all have anti-semitic feelings in their subconscious that they somehow ignore.
What should we do about it then? Spend another 60 years feeling ashamed of ourselves?

Um... It's not the Jewish Israelis strapping bombs to their kids for cash.
Is it Palestinians? Link please.
As far as I know, the parents are usually quite upset when their juniors hang around the militants and end up blowing themselves up.
But maybe Arabs just all hate people more than they love their kids. Must be because Islam is "a religion of hate"

What's so bad about antisemitism? Can't one hate something that is wrong from the very beginning?

What's so bad about antisemitism? Can't one hate something that is wrong from the very beginning?
So it's wrong to be born a Jew?
Funny, I didn't think people had control over that. So it can't very well be wrong.

IFirst, Israel never targets civilians intentionally. It was cleared by every international human rights organization on these charges, in particular the Jenin calumny. If you don't believe me, read a statistical analysis of the conflict here:
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440
I'll quote part of it:



Yep and the pope can fly without wings... Jezus be serious men and stop your extremist propaganda. According to real ngo's like Amnesty and HRW, muslims are way much more killed/persecuted and the subject of rascisme in Israel and the US then Jews in EU. According EU jews, btw, they find FRANCE the best nation to live in the world.
NOOP not French but visited often the US and saw discrimination of muslims there and compared with the civilised world it is very bad.
BTW, while US people can call one a "dirty jew" on the street, people in Antwerp (Belgium) risk 5 years prison for those two words. Some trials are held now. You really think that you would face justice if you change "jew" with "muslim"?

Wonder to see if the same actions would be taken in the US toward Aryan nation or one of the many other extremists in the fascist part of the US that finds itself happy together in the right neocon wing of the Republican party. I am allready sure that they aren't against the daily rascisme towards muslims in the US that is reaching Nazi standards now. Only the concentration camps inside the US must follow now, they allready excist far away from the US mainland...and the free,people with acess to a free press outside the US really know what happens there.

A trial like the one in Antwerp or the ones in France but this time with the discriminated and insulted/tortured muslims by US citizens/soldiers is asked by many muslims but their case is allways discriminated.

Try spreading something else then your favorite source in the Dumbsville Southern Gazette.

Hihihihihi.
This reminds me of the South Park Episode about "The Passion of Christ".

Cartman: "Wir mussen den Juden ausrotten!" - in a really bad accent
Others: "Oh, that must be Hebrew!"
Everyone: "Wir mussen den Juden ausrotten!" - while marching down the road as an angry mob

According to real ngo's like Amnesty and HRW.....
Considering that Amnesty's political "neutrality" has recently blown its cover and that HRW is run by the UN (who can't lift a damn finger to protect rights), I considre your point moot.

Costume, sure. Playing someone into stereotypes about a persecuted group? A bit off.

Just take a moment to analyze what you have written.

Are you trying to say that it is OK to display certain peoples in racial stereotypes because they are NOT a 'persecuted' group? How do you define a persecuted group then?

The only thing that is undeniable here is that your logic is completely circular and makes no sense.

If you cannot work that out then you are obviously a lost cause and there is no point in continuing this debate.

does it looks like I am joking?
Thanks, now I know you're a racist idiot.

Considering that Amnesty's political "neutrality" has recently blown its cover and that HRW is run by the UN (who can't lift a damn finger to protect rights), I considre your point moot.
I'm aware of the actions of the boss of Amnesty's US branch. I never have heard about HRW being run by the UN though. Could you please provide me with some more info?

Conscripted ones, yes. Piludski founded the legion though, which fought alongside the germans against Russian rule over Poland. They were volunteers. And then he became boss later on.

Actually, there were just as many Polish volunteers on the Russian side as there were in the Austro-Hungarian army. These were rallied mainly by Grand Duke Mikolaj (Nicholas) Mikolajewicz, and Roman Dmowski, the leader of Stronnictwo Narodowe (the Polish Nationalist Party). The first, and main, military unit of Polish volunteers organized under the Russian banner was the Pulawski Legion, commanded by Leutenant-Colonel Witold Gorczynski.

Though geography played a large role in which side Poles supported in the war, the division was mainly ideological. The Russian camp was dominated by the Polish nationalists, who hoped that, if victorious, the Tsar would incorporate all former Polish lands into the Russian Empire, and rule as a dual monarch (Russo-Polish Empire), giving the Poles a large degree of autonomy. The Austro-German camp was dominated by the Polish Socialist Party, of which Pilsudski was a leading member. Their hope was that, should the Central Powers win the war, former Polish lands under Russian rule would be incorporated into the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and it would be transformed into a tri-real Empire (Austro-Hungro-Polish Empire).

Things came to a head when it became obvious that Russia had no chance of winning the war. Pilsudski ended up being imprisoned because he refused to swear an oath of fealty to Austro-Hungary. At this point, the two sides unite, and begin to work together for an independant and sovereign Polish state.


The lands taken in the east were supposed to be nations under german control (including Poland). Yet without the treaty there never would have been a Poland.
Check wikipedia for brest-litovsk.

I am well aware of the conditions of the Brest-Litovsk Treaty. The German Empire had no intention, however, of creating a sovereign Polish state. It was the German intention to create several small, weak states, ruled by German monarchs, which would be completely subordinate to the Empire. The future Poland was to be a tiny, weak entity, with no access to the sea, denied many of its key historical territories. Such is an example of German good will toward the Polish people. I would also remind you that, by the time of the signing of this treaty, the governments of both the USA and Great Britain has already declared that a free, sovereign, and independant Poland would be one of the stipulations of an eventual peace with Germany. It is a false assumption that Germany in any way lead to the rebirth of the Polish state.


Rest assured that there is no particular reason. I would like to ask you now: where do you live? Generally, the only people who refer to themselves as half-something (ie half-german or half-Pole) don't actually live there. Cuz if you were in Poland, you'd thing yourself Polish, if you were in germany, you'd think yourself german. Apart from the fact that it is highly suspicious when a german calls himself proud...
Not that there's a difference anyways.

I would then ask where you "live", because where I come from, the lines between Polish and German is very blured amongst many families. Also, I am sorry for you that you are not proud to be German. I take great pride in both my Polish and German roots. Two great nations, with vibrant cultures, and a long history of brilliant and passionate people, why would I not be proud?

To answer your question, I'd much rather give a brief description of my heritage, rather than simply tell you "where I live". I've lived in many places around the world, and probably will live in many more. I personaly was born in Warsaw, though my family really does hail from the four corners of the country.

My father's father's family, by all accounts, hails from Berlin, though they resettled in Warsaw in the late 1800s, apparently in pursuit of some business venture. I don't know much about this side of the family, as my grandfather died of cancer during my father's infancy, and my grandmother, who remarried, was shunned by his family.

My father's mother's family is of old Mazovian stock, petty nobility, with some tracts of land which apparently were lost to the Communist regime.

My mother's father is from Silesia, apparently the army brought him to Warsaw first, where he met my grandmother. From what I know, his family was of mixed Polish and German stock, my grandfather spoke both languages fluently. It would appear that his family had varying loses, some live in Germany now, others remain in Silesia. His father, my great-grandfather, was actually a Russian conscript during the first world war. How he found himself in Russia, with his family in Breslau, remains a mystery untold.

My mother's mother's parents have a colorful enough history. My great-grandmother was the daughter of Prussian nobility in Konigsberg. She apparently fled home, running from an arranged marriage, and taking some of the family silver with her. I still have a couple of forks and knives proudly on display which travel with me, a small family heirloom. Anyhow, she went to Berlin, where she met a Communist agitator, which she promptly married. The result of said union was my grandmother. My grandmother was born and raised in Berlin, though for her, the Nazi regime brought tragedy. Her parents, as I have mentioned, were Communists, and as such ended up being murdered by the Nazis. My grandmother was placed in a work camp, where she lived through the years of the war. In the post war confusion, she ended up in Warsaw, though unfortunatly the details of that story have been lost to me. My mother never really did take an interest, and my grandmother has passed away, so I suppose I never will know the full story, which I must admit I find quite disapointing. One thing I do know is that her relationship with my grandfather begun on the basis that he was one of the few men in Warsaw who could actually speak German, and that it is he who taught her the fundamentals of the Polish language. Its strange, how life leads people and families along such varied and unexpected paths.

I just have a problem when Polish people, and a lot of them do that, can't get over it.

I could say the same thing about how the Germans can't get over the fact that Poles "stole their land".

If I remember correctly, when the war broke out Poland was quite happy about it. They were gonna be in berlin in two weeks, they said. This victimised position taken now didn't come along until much later.

This appears to be some kind of strange fabrication. Would you mind elaborating?


I did appologise. You were just all to ready to present yourself as an innocent victim of some sort of racist german conspiracy (or at least that's what I read out of it).

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Everyone is victimised and it always takes two to tango.

What's with the strange generalization?

And when did I say Polish people killed Jews? (apart from the few collaborateurs that existed in every country)

It was a combined reaction to yourself and Green Israel.

And I really don't wanna have this argument with you. I appologise for what I have said.

Why are you so apologetic?

BTW, while US people can call one a "dirty jew" on the street, people in Antwerp (Belgium) risk 5 years prison for those two words. Some trials are held now. You really think that you would face justice if you change "jew" with "muslim"?

I don't like the idea of the government banning any kind of speech, even the speech of hate groups. I think it shows a lack of respect and tolerance for them as human beings. Forcing people to keep silent about their views doesn't prove anything. If you don't like what someone else is saying, you can always present your own views. That's how things are done here in America, and that's the way I like it. BTW, I'm Jewish.

...and the free,people with acess to a free press outside the US really know what happens there...

...without any kind of perspective whatsoever. Just like we don't really have a clue about antisemitism in Europe. "Jews aren't bad, but Europeans are" and "Muslims aren't bad, but Americans are" are hypocrytical generalizations. It is extremely difficult for us as human beings to try to see things from the point of view of people we disagree with, or to distinguish between the devout and the militant, or those who hate and those who are concerned.

I think the construct that all viewpoints are really the same is a flat failure. No one can truly live it. Inevitably they end up turning their nose up at most viewpoints and out-and-out hating some. I think that true tolerance takes us not only believing in the superiority of our viewpoints, but being sufficiently confident in them to not be so doggone concerned about people who disagree with you. After all, that's all hatred is: viewing other people as threats instead of people. It is less a function of how strongly you believe what you believe and more a function of what your ethical constraints are in accomplishing your religious, political, or social goals.

BTW, Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the US. Maybe that scares some people on this board, but so it is.