NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, why do they?

They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths, even if their teachings are quite opposite, yet an Atheist like myself, even one that holds similar morals, is an instant target for scorn. Why?

This is not to say all Theists hate my kind, but there is a large enough number to warrant this thread.

Well, why do they?

They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths, even if their teachings are quite opposite, yet an Atheist like myself, even one that holds similar morals, is an instant target for scorn. Why?

This is not to say all Theists hate my kind, but there is a large enough number to warrant this thread.
Um... SOME theists are tolerant of theists of other faiths, just as SOME are tolerant of atheists. I really do it believe it depends on the individual's theology and how much they deviate from the traditional views within their theology.

It's a mutual thing. Also, it seems as if a higher percentage of athiests look upon theists with scorn and disdain.

Personally, I pity athiests. (just my opinion)

Well, why do they?

They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths, even if their teachings are quite opposite, yet an Atheist like myself, even one that holds similar morals, is an instant target for scorn. Why?

This is not to say all Theists hate my kind, but there is a large enough number to warrant this thread.
Simple, they view atheists as being the cornerstone of all that is immoral and family value bankrupt about today's world. They think (in a lot of cases) that because atheists won't acknowledge that 'God' exists that they are without a soul; without a conscious and haven't an ounce of self-respect. So, they hate them because they believe that because they assume that atheists are morally bankrupt that atheists are out to wreck the world that was built on so-called family values.

Atheists also question the doctrine and text which the theist hold sacred to their hearts and souls, be the Qu'ran, the Torah, The Holy Bible etc... and so, the theists believe that atheists are out to destroy what the theists consider to be God's word and therefore the only word that is valid in any circumstance.

They don't like atheists because of their lack of conformity. Atheists think outside of the box when it comes to spirituality and the theists view this as somewhat satanic and that the atheists and their immoral values are sending the world to hell in a hand basket.

It's a mutual thing. Also, it seems as if a higher percentage of athiests look upon theists with scorn and disdain.

Personally, I pity athiests. (just my opinion)
I pity those who cannot spell the word "atheists". :p

I'm not sure they do. But to the extent they do, it probably has to do with a profound insecurity about their beliefs. It's like they'll suddenly be wrong if and only if other people don't agree with their beliefs. What, will God disappear from lack of worship?

That said, I think it's an unfair generalization to say that theists hate atheists, or anyone really. (I speak as an atheist/agnostic BTW.)

It's a mutual thing. Also, it seems as if a higher percentage of athiests look upon theists with scorn and disdain.

Personally, I pity athiests. (just my opinion)

Hmm, interesting viewpoint.

However, most Atheists I see have the sort of pity for Theists as they do for grown adults who belive in Santa Claus.

The Theists I see who recieve disdain are the shouty types who belive their faith is the One True Path i.e Pat Robertson et cetera.

Because theists don't like the idea of there being no God. They rely on it to keep them happy. Atheist opinions threaten this belief, which naturally leads to hatred of the atheist.

I altered a bit of the quote just to be fair to the other side:

Why do Atheists hate Theists?

Well, why do they?

They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths, even if their teachings are quite opposite, yet a Theist like myself, even one that holds similar morals, is an instant target for scorn. Why?

This is not to say all Atheists hate my kind, but there is a large enough number to warrant this thread.

Just saw the new post...would like to add that I don't believe in any kind of God but do believe in moral absolutes. I particularly resent it when some theists suggest there can be no morality without God. I consider myself a very moral person, and to the degree that I'm not I try to do better. It's because I want to do the right thing, no other reason. Sometimes I wonder just what the religiously devout would consider moral if they weren't scared to death of big daddy in the sky sending them to a toasty little pit. Without their fear to keep them in check I don't think a lot of them would be "moral" at all.

I pity those who cannot spell the word "atheists". :p
Oh bite me, I haven't had any caffeine yet today. :p

One thing I noticed is, atheists have never declared religious people enemies in need of conversion/extermination, whereas this attitude towards atheists has been a common thread in the history of the major religions. Indeed, this remains an issue today in some sects of Islam.

Some may point to communism as an exception, but this is not the case. Russian communism sought the destruction of the Orthodox Church not because of its religious nature, its belief in god, but because of its ownership of property and role as part of the state. Communists were also uniformly opposed to any organisation which threatened the Party's monopoly on loyalty, irrespective of its nature. The actual spirituality of the Christian church was never an issue for the revolutionaries, except as an intellectual distraction, more important was its role as a state organ.

Thus I conclude that atheists have been far more tolerant of the religious than vice versa. As for why, who knows.

Seems to be a typical US thing. Here in Europe noone really cares about your religion. The only religion that is frowned upon is probably Islam.

I'm an Atheist but i dont hate anyone because of his religion. If you or anyone else want to believe in god then go ahead, just dont bother me with it.

Everyone hates everyone for the same reason: They're ignorant and they hate what's different and they don't understand. That goes for Atheists, Theists, Republicans, Democrats, Fascists, Anarchists, and even you and me.

No more debating.

Hmm, interesting viewpoint.

However, most Atheists I see have the sort of pity for Theists as they do for grown adults who belive in Santa Claus.

The Theists I see who recieve disdain are the shouty types who belive their faith is the One True Path i.e Pat Robertson et cetera.

The condescending, holier-than-thou, elitist tone of the atheist is what I despise.

The condescending, holier-than-thou, elitist tone of the atheist is what I despise.
(1) In the case of atheism, wouldn't that be an "unholier-than-thou" tone? :p
(2) Just atheists? I despise anyone who takes that tone.

Morality and values are all relevant.

There are plenty of religious individuals and groups, as well as theists (not necessarily religious but still believe in God and respect the existance thereof) who lack the very morals that they believe come from following religion and the text therein.

It's quite possibly to be avowedly atheist, agnostic, secular or whatever the flavour of the month is and still have morals and values, that while may not reflect those of any one religion, reflect common sense and societal laws; in other words, secular morals and values.

Then on the flip side of the coin, it is very possible for those who preach about how God will rain Fire and Brimstone on all sinners and how everyone must repent for their sins, take God into their heart, believe and have a religion, can be the hypocrites, as they tell everyone else how they should live their lives.

These people claim homosexuality is an abomination to God and that God hates all homosexuals, and yet, there are so few comdenations and rules against homosexuality in the Bible than there are rules for the heterosexual. (just for example).

No more debating.
YES, MINE FUHRER!

:p

It's a lame attempt at humor and pointing out something somewhat ironic. Go buy a sense of humor.

Everyone hates everyone for the same reason: They're ignorant and they hate what's different and they don't understand. That goes for Atheists, Theists, Republicans, Democrats, Fascists, Anarchists, and even you and me.

No more debating.
Ooh, you must be under the delusion that this is a dictatorship in which YOU are the dictator.

The .. .holier-than-thou ... tone of the atheist is what I despise.
So to speak, eh?

Why do Atheists hate Theists?

Well, why do they?

They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths, even if their teachings are quite opposite, yet a Theist like myself, even one that holds similar morals, is an instant target for scorn. Why?

This is not to say all Atheists hate my kind, but there is a large enough number to warrant this thread.

First off, the first bit of the altered post (They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths) doesn't really make much sense when you think about it.

Apart from that, it's a good point. In answer; I don't know many open Atheists who randomly rant at Theists, instead preferring rational discussion when challenged. I've yet to see an Atheist challenge a Theist without being provoked first. This is not to say that we don't get emotional and that we never insult; we do, but that's due to the insults thrown at us.

Ooh, you must be under the delusion that this is a dictatorship in which YOU are the dictator.
I did it first and funnier. :p

Ooh, you must be under the delusion that this is a dictatorship in which YOU are the dictator.
and I rule with an iron fist, darnit!

I did it first and funnier. :p
I noticed. Damn you! :p

It's a mutual thing. Also, it seems as if a higher percentage of athiests look upon theists with scorn and disdain.

Personally, I pity athiests. (just my opinion)

I pity them as well. But I don't hate them, as hate is too strong a word.

You know I have never seen a really good reason not to believe in (at the very least) a higher power?

I pity them as well. But I don't hate them, as hate is too strong a word.

You know I have never seen a really good reason not to believe in (at the very least) a higher power?
Uh oh.I sense an atheist vs. theist debate in the midst.

Take shelter.

I've yet to see an Atheist challenge a Theist without being provoked first. This is not to say that we don't get emotional and that we never insult; we do, but that's due to the insults thrown at us.
Must depend on where you live. I've seen atheists go OFF on Christians merely for the mention that they were Christian. They weren't even being preachy. It was just acknowledged in the discussions (yes, I've seen it happen more than once) and BAM, the atheist was like an attack dog. I've had it happen to me personally, once...and in all honesty, I openly played the 'pity' card just to enrage them further. It was quite fun. :D

I am in no means saying that all atheists are like this. I'm just saying that it does happen.

Seems to be a typical US thing. Here in Europe noone really cares about your religion. The only religion that is frowned upon is probably Islam.

I'm an Atheist but i dont hate anyone because of his religion. If you or anyone else want to believe in god then go ahead, just dont bother me with it.

Last time I checked, the Vatican resided in Europe. I think they'd have something to say.

(1) In the case of atheism, wouldn't that be an "unholier-than-thou" tone? :p
(2) Just atheists? I despise anyone who takes that tone.

Well, it's only okay if I take that tone, but not anyone else. But theists aren't holier-than-thou "enlightened" atheists, they're just loudmouthed bastards.

This thread makes a percentage of sense that approximately relates to a negative range.

Sigh.

I have no idea where the thread author grows up, but my parents are Christians, my grandfather is a pastor, I was homeschooled in a Christian group, and continue my faith in my own life. Surrounded by 'theists', I have yet to find one of them that actually hates (or even dislikes) anyone of the 'athiest' persuasion! (Based solely on their said persuasion, that is - I know idiots who are athiests, and I know idiots (who I don't care for) who are theists)

Perhaps, author, all you need to do is move to Kansas, since apparently all the rational theists live here?

Who knows!

As a Christian Theist i can't agree. I believe completely different things compared to an athiest, but it does not mean that i hate them. The bible calls us to love our neighbor as our self, not to hate them. Our beliefs may disagree, and I may hate things they love, but i don't hate them.

However since theists is such a big catagory, and different theists disagree with each other, i can't speak for all theists. Prehaps the controversy occurs due to the fact that Muslims and Christians disagree just as much as they both do with Athiests.

Well, it's only okay if I take that tone, but not anyone else. But theists aren't holier-than-thou "enlightened" atheists, they're just loudmouthed bastards.
Nice ad hominem there. :rolleyes:

This thread makes a percentage of sense that approximately relates to a negative range.

Sigh.

I have no idea where the thread author grows up, but my parents are Christians, my grandfather is a pastor, I was homeschooled in a Christian group, and continue my faith in my own life. Surrounded by 'theists', I have yet to find one of them that actually hates (or even dislikes) anyone of the 'athiest' persuasion! (Based solely on their said persuasion, that is - I know idiots who are athiests, and I know idiots (who I don't care for) who are theists)

Perhaps, author, all you need to do is move to Kansas, since apparently all the rational theists live here?

Who knows!
Well, there are good Christians, like the ones you know, and there are bitter, passive-aggressive ones like the one i know.

I was just kicked out of my Mormon friend's home for this very reason.

Well, why do they?

They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths, even if their teachings are quite opposite, yet an Atheist like myself, even one that holds similar morals, is an instant target for scorn. Why?

This is not to say all Theists hate my kind, but there is a large enough number to warrant this thread.

I think it's just the fundamentalist types that are intolerant of atheists, but they are also pretty intolerant of other faiths as well (at least, in my experience).

Also, in my experience, Atheists are often even more intolerant of every faith on the planet than fundies are of atheists or of other faiths. Just an observation...

"hate" is the wrong word... I don't know any christians who hate anyone, let alone atheists.

i think that "concern" is a better word... when you believe that people must do certain things to get to heaven... if you care about them at all, you let them know about it.

also, some are snooty about it... you know, the joke about the "all dressed up with nowhere to go" statement on the atheist's tombstone.

Uh oh.I sense an atheist vs. theist debate in the midst.

Take shelter.

I don't want to debate...it's been debated too many times as it is. I was just stating why I pity them.

There's usually other characteristics associated with atheists other than not believing in a god, and not to mention you go against everything they believe and religious ppl don't like Liberals too much.

This thread makes a percentage of sense that approximately relates to a negative range.

Sigh.

I have no idea where the thread author grows up, but my parents are Christians, my grandfather is a pastor, I was homeschooled in a Christian group, and continue my faith in my own life. Surrounded by 'theists', I have yet to find one of them that actually hates (or even dislikes) anyone of the 'athiest' persuasion! (Based solely on their said persuasion, that is - I know idiots who are athiests, and I know idiots (who I don't care for) who are theists)

Perhaps, author, all you need to do is move to Kansas, since apparently all the rational theists live here?

Who knows!

First off, I was born in the West Coast of Scotland, home to the worst Secratarian violence outside of Northern Island during the high point of the Troubles.

As to parental religion, my fathers' end of the bloodstream is Catholic, and my mothers' is Protestant.

Belive me, it was akward telling them my beliefs, especially since I was 14, so they were convinced it was "just a phase". When they learned I was serious, they were angry every time it was mentioned.

I have met a few Theists who hate my kind, and I've recieved all the "Hellfire and Damnation" threats, and one instance of "I'm gonna kill you!".

Move to Kansas? No ta. I don't know much about the place.

"hate" is the wrong word... I don't know any christians who hate anyone, let alone atheists.
Well, you always have the Fucktard Phelps and his merry troupe of God Hates Fags pseudo-christian morons that give the rest of us Christians a bad name. :headbang:

First off, the first bit of the altered post (They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths) doesn't really make much sense when you think about it.

Apart from that, it's a good point. In answer; I don't know many open Atheists who randomly rant at Theists, instead preferring rational discussion when challenged. I've yet to see an Atheist challenge a Theist without being provoked first. This is not to say that we don't get emotional and that we never insult; we do, but that's due to the insults thrown at us.

Yeah, I do admit that it doesn't retain the amount of sense it originally had, but I was doing what you said--making a point.

I believe that it happens on both sides. Some atheists hate theists as some theists hate atheists. It's like that everywhere and with most all types of people. As for why, it's because (and this goes for both sides) 1)it seems that they won't listen to what they say, and if they do, they refuse it, 2)they're viewed to be stupid, and 3)the simple fact that they're different.

Sad, but true.

The condescending, holier-than-thou, elitist tone of the atheist is what I despise.

For me, it was the condescending, holier-than-thou, elitist tone of the theist that grew to despise. It made me the agnostic I am today. Not an atheist but certainly anti-organized religion.

Well, you always have the Fucktard Phelps and his merry troupe of God Hates Fags pseudo-christian morons that give the rest of us Christians a bad name. :headbang:

Yep. Couldn't agree with you more.

Well, you always have the Fucktard Phelps and his merry troupe of God Hates Fags pseudo-christian morons that give the rest of us Christians a bad name. :headbang:

Again, sad but true. *sigh* Some people hop on the train before they even look at their ticket and destination. I don't think Phelps has any idea as to what Christianity truly means.

I mentioned this before in another thread but when it comes to the Phelps group and all other extremist "God hates you" groups, I'll walk up with my own protest, wearing a shirt or weilding a sign that says "God appreciates the fervor, but thinks you're a moron." :p

Maybe it is just because I'm a 'born-again atheist', but I've lost patience with the theists. For a while in my youth I wandered into the light, but found nothing but hypocrits and nutcases; so I gladly sauntered back off into the dark.

</smartass>

Seriously - all the power to anyone who has faith: but do me a favour and keep it to yourself. If god gives you strength; good on ya. But I sure don't have to defend my lack of religious faith to anyone.

As a side point: I've found atheists to have stronger moral convictions than most religious people I've met. I believe that it is because an atheist needs to forgive him/herself for transgressions, and not some all-powerful diety that cannot be seen heard or felt - and that automatically forgives. It tends to make the atheist a wee bit more cautious about their actions.

Well, you always have the Fucktard Phelps and his merry troupe of God Hates Fags pseudo-christian morons that give the rest of us Christians a bad name. :headbang:
God hates Phelps.

Spoken by a true atheist.

For me, it was the condescending, holier-than-thou, elitist tone of the theist that grew to despise. It made me the agnostic I am today. Not an atheist but certainly anti-organized religion.
That's one thing that gets me. Even *I* am somewhat anti-ORGANIZED religion...and I'm a Christian. It's not religion itself that has "caused most of the world's problems" as some are wont to point out. It's always been some ORGANIZED sect or religion that has created human disasters (Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, Crusades, etc.). Heck, even Jesus taught that you didn't NEED 'organized' religion, as Christianity is based on a personal relationship with God.

Just a thought.

By the way, the word "pity" has appeared a few times.

Please don't pity me for my beliefs. Pity me for my taste in music (Sunshine, Lollipops and Rainbows), but not for a part of me which is core to who I am.

And do not pray for me either. Whilst I appreciate the concern, I also find it quite insulting. It suggests that my brain is "broken", and that only God can fix it.

Last time I checked, the Vatican resided in Europe. I think they'd have something to say.

Their influence in Europe has declined in the past few decades and its not improving. The Vatican is the exception, the only ones who really follow the pope here are Poles and Italians. Even the Spanish, who are usually known to be true catholics respect Atheists.

Really, whenever I see these arguments, it makes me remember that humans are inherently insane, except most don't realize it. The fact of the matter is, you can't really categorize people as 'theist' and 'atheist'. You have to categorize them as 'bigots' or 'open'. You have to figure out wether they are open to new things, or wether they are bigots.

Then, if they are a bigot, you must determine what sort of bigotry classification pertains to them. Like some have said, you have your preachy guys. You have your 'denouncers'. You have your passive-aggressives.

And you have those 'born again' whacko's of either type, that chase you to the end of the earth, and aren't really out to kill you, but there really isn't a proper way to tell them off or deal with them, and they dont become life threatening enough to use a shottie to chase them away.

But enough! No more discussing this, because it will turn into the apocalypse, and get people banned :cool:

Really, whenever I see these arguments, it makes me remember that humans are inherently insane, except most don't realize it. The fact of the matter is, you can't really categorize people as 'theist' and 'atheist'. You have to categorize them as 'bigots' or 'open'. You have to figure out wether they are open to new things, or wether they are bigots.

Then, if they are a bigot, you must determine what sort of bigotry classification pertains to them. Like some have said, you have your preachy guys. You have your 'denouncers'. You have your passive-aggressives.

And you have those 'born again' whacko's of either type, that chase you to the end of the earth, and aren't really out to kill you, but there really isn't a proper way to tell them off or deal with them, and they dont become life threatening enough to use a shottie to chase them away.

But enough! No more discussing this, because it will turn into the apocalypse, and get people banned :cool:
Wow. Nice flamebaiting versus theists. I'm sure they'll love to read this post.

Wow. Nice flamebaiting versus theists. I'm sure they'll love to read this post.
I read it and decided not to respond, since I'm constantly on the edge of being forumbanned/deleted anyway. :p

Never said there aren't born again atheists too :cool:

Wow. Nice flamebaiting versus theists. I'm sure they'll love to read this post.
Methinks he meant it to apply to both sides.

In response to the original post . . .

As I'm sure most have pointed out, not all theists hate atheists. However, it may seem the opposite because theists only hear the atheists who insult them and their beliefs. The tolerant atheists respect the beliefs of others and probably keep their mouths shut (in respect) when around other theists.

Thus, the respectful atheists aren't heard, and the disrespectful ones are.

In short, the problem is that the atheists who insult theists have the biggest mouths.

Methinks he meant it to apply to both sides.
Yes, but I think he was rougher on the theists, don't you?

It's a mutual thing. Also, it seems as if a higher percentage of athiests look upon theists with scorn and disdain.

Personally, I pity athiests. (just my opinion)


As an atheist myself (and I know many, many theists) and I can tell you that atheists are a lot more fun to be around. They don't (usually) try to make you believe that there is a God. Theists also seem to hate atheists a hell of a lot more than atheists hate theists.

In response to the original post . . .

As I'm sure most have pointed out, not all theists hate atheists. However, it may seem the opposite because theists only hear the atheists who insult them and their beliefs. The tolerant atheists respect the beliefs of others and probably keep their mouths shut (in respect) when around other theists.

Thus, the respectful atheists aren't heard, and the disrespectful ones are.

In short, the problem is that the atheists who insult theists have the biggest mouths.

The flip side also applies i.e the Theists who insult Atheists have the biggest voice.

Unfortunately, they also have some political power, and sheer number.

Well, why do they?

Most of them don't hate us.

As an atheist myself (and I know many, many theists) and I can tell you that atheists are a lot more fun to be around. They don't (usually) try to make you believe that there is a God. Theists also seem to hate atheists a hell of a lot more than atheists hate theists.
You know atheists that try to make you believe there IS a "God"? :confused:

The flip side also applies i.e the Theists who insult Atheists have the biggest voice.

Unfortunately, they also have some political power, and sheer number.

Yes, you are correct. Maybe someday the atheists will have political power. Can anyone see this happening soon?

Ack, generally speaking, Christians and Atheists are one as bad as the other.

Glad to be a Pagan.

Yes, you are correct. Maybe someday the atheists will have political power. Can anyone see this happening soon?

Apart from Communist Governments? No, not soon. But it will happen.

Alrighty, so I was telling this atheist friend of mine a story about how I'm constantly telling this baptist friend to stop trying to convert me. She says:

'Pfft. Christians.'

I've got to say, she was the more facist out of the two.

Peoples, read posts, and reread them, before criticizing. I was saying that you can't categorize 'atheists' and 'theists' because Christianity is too deeply a part of our culture. So really, it comes down to anyone being a bigot or not, from either side. I've met christians and atheists. Either side of the purported can be open, or be bigots. I hope that clears that up for you.

Personally, I am Ignostic.

As an atheist myself (and I know many, many theists) and I can tell you that atheists are a lot more fun to be around. They don't (usually) try to make you believe that there is a God. Theists also seem to hate atheists a hell of a lot more than atheists hate theists.

I hang around all theists/ Christians. They don't try and make anyone believe anything. Don't try to speak for an entire group, because they're not all that way.

I used to be an atheist but I now I fail to understand how one can have moral values without believing in a supreme being. Why should I love my neighbor if there is no real reason to do so?

Hopefully someone can help me...

I pity them as well. But I don't hate them, as hate is too strong a word.

You know I have never seen a really good reason not to believe in (at the very least) a higher power?

I have never seen a really good reason not to believe in magical emus that are the children of an alien invasion of Earth five centuries ago.

Doesn't make it any less real. That is such a logical fallacy it makes my brain hurt.

IMO, organized religion has been the most destructive, regressive force in the history of the world and has done more to hold back progress than any other thing. (Dark Ages anyone? Salem Witch Trials? Spanish Inquisition? Crusades? Islamic terrorism? Shooting of abortion doctors? demonization and violence agaisnt homosexuals? the silence of the Catholic Church during the holocaust? I could go on)

Whereas athiests don't have the "if you don't beleive like I do I will try and convert you and failing that you will be put to death at the end times" mentality of many religious followers.

However, most Atheists I see have the sort of pity for Theists as they do for grown adults who belive in Santa Claus.
yes.

I used to be an atheist but I now I fail to understand how one can have moral values without believing in a supreme being. Why should I love my neighbor if there is no real reason to do so?

Hopefully someone can help me...
Morals come from within you. You do not have to be a sheep. What do you feel is wrong? You don't need someone to dictate that for you. It's not all that difficult to ask yourself these questions and find your own answers. I know. I succeeded in doing so at only 8 years old.

"Why should I love my neighbor if there is no real reason to do so?"

Because you realise that they too are a sentient being?

Not having a moral compass without a deity to tell you what to do strikes me kinda like being a naughty little child who only does the right thing because they know their parent will punish them (Send them to hell) if they don't act nice.

Doesn't strike me as genuine respect for other human life, just doing what you're told to do because you're scared of being sent to hell.

Oh yeah, I don't hate either group :)

In response to the original post . . .
The tolerant atheists respect the beliefs of others and probably keep their mouths shut (in respect) when around other theists.



AMEN BROTHER!

(i'm agnostic)

I used to be an atheist but I now I fail to understand how one can have moral values without believing in a supreme being. Why should I love my neighbor if there is no real reason to do so?

Hopefully someone can help me...

Simple. This is the only shot we get at life, so we must endeavour to make it better for all. Belief in a God reduces this desire, since no matter what happens we are all going to live on anyway, so it doesn't matter what we do as long as we reprent.

Take any natural disaster. Whilst Theists may gather in a Holy Place to pray to God to help them out, many humanists who want to help actually go and do somthing. Of the Theists who go to help out, I'll bet at least some are trying to buy a ticket to Heaven.

So which morals are better; trying to help people out of sheer kindness, or out of a desire to avoid the Bad Place?

Well, why do they?

They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths, even if their teachings are quite opposite, yet an Atheist like myself, even one that holds similar morals, is an instant target for scorn. Why?

This is not to say all Theists hate my kind, but there is a large enough number to warrant this thread.
Because it is terrifying to believe that there are people who don't need your God. It's frightening to face the possibility that others are leading happy, healthy, productive lives without the crutch you have chosen to lean on. It's dangerous to contemplate the idea that morality doesn't derive from your personal diety.

I used to be an atheist
Right. Just like the people who write letters to the editor and say "as a lifelong Democrat..." and then proceed do disparage democrats.

but I now I fail to understand how one can have moral values without believing in a supreme being. Why should I love my neighbor if there is no real reason to do so?

Hopefully someone can help me...

It's called just plain being a good person. The belief in a supreme being is not necessary for moral value. I have moral values just because I think it's the right thing to do (help your fellow man, treat others as you would have them treat you, etc).

Conversely, please explaint o me the moral value of Christianist Fundamentalists who think it's okay to shoot abortion doctors, "bomb the brown people" or inflict violence against homosexuals and/or racial minorities?

Just because a person does not believe in a supreme being does not mean they cannot have morals. Just as a person who beleives in a supreme being does not necessarily have morals.

I suggest you read soem Thomas Paine, specifically The Age of Reason (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/index.shtml)

Morals come from within you. You do not have to be a sheep. What do you feel is wrong? You don't need someone to dictate that for you. It's not all that difficult to ask yourself these questions and find your own answers. I know. I succeeded in doing so at only 8 years old.

Okay, but if you do not at least believe in a spirit connecting all human beings, then isn't it logical to only care for yourself?

i don't think i've ever met an theist that has hated atheists are maybe they did and never said. i'm positive there are, but that's likely because they aren't practicing really.
however, me being an theist have been unsuccessfully oppressed by atheists all my life. telling me how dumb i am etc and telling me im the conformist when they all spurn me the same, tell me the same negative thoughts about my religion and i'm sure the reason they believe in evolution is simply because they don't wanna believe in God, because seemingly none are actually on neutral level with him. although, they may hate it, but they tolerate it i guess. despite some protests against it in the public.
It really hit me when my best friend told me he wanted to see me dead since I believed in God, but i know this doesn't apply all atheists. Had I not been a firm believer I would have really done some bad things, but thankfully i got over it and forgive him.
on the internet i always see the atheists starting hate threads first, it may not be intentional, but it always turns into one.
but what can you do... better to embrace than to hate. it is always said in the bible that Christians would be hated. sometimes it gets on my nerves tho.

Okay, but if you do not at least believe in a spirit connecting all human beings, then isn't it logical to only care for yourself?
Perhaps it is. These are questions you must answer yourself-I could but will not tell you what I believe you should believe.

I used to be an atheist but I now I fail to understand how one can have moral values without believing in a supreme being. Why should I love my neighbor if there is no real reason to do so?

Hopefully someone can help me...
I don't love my neighbor, she's a crazy lady with a really ugly cat. But I do have very strong moral values, despite being agnostic, so maybe I can help you out a bit.

I do good things because it gives me pleasure. I just like being nice, for the most part, and I choose to be good because I enjoy it more than being wicked. I don't need to be bribed to do the right thing, because I like it. Even when doing the right thing is really hard, or painful, or seriously sucks, I know that I feel better in the end and I respect myself more. I don't need the promise of paradise or any other cookie dangled in front of me, and I don't need the approval of anybody else (human or God) to encourage me to be a good person.

Here's something I once remember reading, and they also stressed it in Big O. The atheist man, who doesn't believe in God, asking the theist:

Tell me...does it make you feel...justified?

Just a little thought as to the basic working of the human psyche in general.

Really, though, Atheists often seem to make it a religion in itself to vex other religions. Both are therefore feeding off the other in an argument.

Okay, but if you do not at least believe in a spirit connecting all human beings, then isn't it logical to only care for yourself?


Only if you're a Solipsist.

Oh and try replacing 'a spirit' with 'shared human experience' or even just 'intelligence'.

I do good things because it gives me pleasure. I just like being nice, for the most part, and I choose to be good because I enjoy it more than being wicked. I don't need to be bribed to do the right thing, because I like it. Even when doing the right thing is really hard, or painful, or seriously sucks, I know that I feel better in the end and I respect myself more. I don't need the promise of paradise or any other cookie dangled in front of me, and I don't need the approval of anybody else (human or God) to encourage me to be a good person.

Said better than I could have said it. This is exactly how I feel abotu the thing.

There is no need for a God, or spiratual connection or any other hooboojooboo the give me a reason to be moral and good. I am that way because I ilike being that way and it feels good to be that way. Call it what you will, I call it just being a good person.

This is something that it seems many Christianist Fundamentalists can't undertand (and is, I beleive,w hat leads to some of the hatred of atheists) - they don't understand how someone without the belief in a higher being can still be a good person. They are too used to being led by an Invisible Cloud Being and... dare I say.. have lost the capacity to think and reason for themselves without justifying all actions with a religious belief.

I find it humorous when atheists call theists "sheep" or "conformist" when all atheists are doing is conforming to a different point of view. It's like a group of goths calling a group of yuppies "conformist". :p

Said better than I could have said it. This is exactly how I feel abotu the thing.

There is no need for a God, or spiratual connection or any other hooboojooboo the give me a reason to be moral and good. I am that way because I ilike being that way and it feels good to be that way. Call it what you will, I call it just being a good person.

This is something that it seems many Christianist Fundamentalists can't undertand (and is, I beleive,w hat leads to some of the hatred of atheists) - they don't understand how someone without the belief in a higher being can still be a good person. They are too used to being led by an Invisible Cloud Being and... dare I say.. have lost the capacity to think and reason for themselves without justifying all actions with a religious belief.
They are kind of depressing, if you think about it: they act so amazed and incredulous at the idea that a person could simply choose to be good to others. They act like it's impossible for people to want to be generous or honorable if they aren't being bribed with something. They act like everybody is poised and ready to be wicked, and only the threat of Hell keeps us from raping, killing, and looting. They must really be scum, if that is true of them.

I find it humorous when atheists call theists "sheep" or "conformist" when all atheists are doing is conforming to a different point of view. It's like a group of goths calling a group of yuppies "conformist". :p


Atheists do not all conform to a different point of view, any more than all non-stamp collectors conform to a version of stamp-collecting.

I find it humorous when atheists call theists "sheep" or "conformist" when all atheists are doing is conforming to a different point of view. It's like a group of goths calling a group of yuppies "conformist". :p




Atheism doesn't define your creedo, there are many types of Atheistic 'paths' you can tread, Humanism, Solipsism, Nepotistic Bio-Fascism.. some Atheists even have somewhat 'unique' world views.. just like some theists in fact.

But yeah, the vast majority of both groups are 'followers' of one sort or another.

Theists aren't sheep.
Atheists aren't sheep.
*People* are sheep!

Atheists do not all conform to a different point of view, any more than all non-stamp collectors conform to a version of stamp-collecting.
Actually, I'd counter that all atheists share a belief that there is no higher power of any type. That *is* conforming to a specific point of view.

I find it humorous when atheists call theists "sheep" or "conformist" when all atheists are doing is conforming to a different point of view. It's like a group of goths calling a group of yuppies "conformist". :p




Hooray for logical fallacies!

When atheists call theists "sheep" or "conformists" it is because of some of the very comments on this thread such as "how can a person be moral without belief in a supreme being." they are conformist sheep because to them, to be good, they have to follow the letter of the law of their God and that is the only way to be Good.

Atheists, on the other hand, may have similar points of view on not needing faith, non-belief, etc. but we are mainly tied together with the common point of view that each person is their own and has the ability to make their own choices on how to be a good person without the threat of an eternity of pain to make them be good. Beyond that, an atheist is on their own. It's nto liek there's some Pope of the Atheists that's telling us what is good and what is bad and what will happen if we misbehave.

Big difference. Thanks for playing.

I find it humorous when atheists call theists "sheep" or "conformist" when all atheists are doing is conforming to a different point of view. It's like a group of goths calling a group of yuppies "conformist". :p


I don't believe I ever called myself atheist. Does anyone remember me saying that? Anyone?

Actually, I'd counter that all atheists share a belief that there is no higher power of any type. That *is* conforming to a specific point of view.
Atheism is often defined as the lack of belief in God. Like pretty much all adult humans on planet Earth, I lack belief in Santa Claus as a literal being...does that mean I am "conforming" to the a-Santa-theist group?

People who follow a common religion share much more than simply believing God exists. They share specific views on the nature of God and how humans are meant to experience/interact with God. They often share a common holy book, which in some cases will give amazingly detailed behavioral instructions. Athests share no such bond and no such unity of belief; the ONLY uniting force is their lack of belief in God.

Or, put it another way: if all atheists are "conforming" because of their shared lack of belief in a God, then all non-Christians are "conforming" because of their lack of belief in the Christian God. All non-Jews "conform" by disbelieving the Jewish God. All non-Hindus...you get the idea.

Atheism is often defined as the lack of belief in God. Like pretty much all adult humans on planet Earth, I lack belief in Santa Claus as a literal being...does that mean I am "conforming" to the a-Santa-theist group?
Technically, yes. :)

Or, put it another way: if all atheists are "conforming" because of their shared lack of belief in a God, then all non-Christians are "conforming" because of their lack of belief in the Christian God. All non-Jews "conform" by disbelieving the Jewish God. All non-Hindus...you get the idea.
EXACTLY! :D

Bump.

My belief as atheist is that we (the atheists) are just a lot more easy

if your teacher is homosexual, your neighbour is Islamic, your girlfriend has decided to do abortion, your parents are divorced and on sunday morning you just sleep or smoke a joint, there's no problem, because you're an easy happy atheist without prejudices to anything :D

don't misunderstand me, I know also a lot of Christians who are that easy, but there are also a lot of bigots
and while, for example, usually an atheist has nothing against homosexuality, the institution itself of Catholicism or Evangelism is intolerant towards it
it's a miracle that there are so many christians which take their religion personal and do not follow those intolerant predicts

My belief as atheist is that we (the atheists) are just a lot more easy

if your teacher is homosexual, your neighbour is Islamic, your girlfriend has decided to do abortion, your parents are divorced and on sunday morning you just sleep or smoke a joint, there's no problem, because you're an easy happy atheist without prejudices to anything :D

don't misunderstand me, I know also a lot of Christians who are that easy, but there are also a lot of bigots
and while, for example, usually an atheist has nothing against homosexuality, the institution itself of Catholicism or Evangelism is intolerant towards them
it's a miracle that there are so many christians which take their religion personal and do not follow those intolerant predicts
I don't believe that atheists are without prejudice. In fact, I don't believe anyone is.

I don't believe that atheists are without prejudice. In fact, I don't believe anyone is.
you can believe it, there's no problem, bacause I'm an easy happy atheist without prejudice :D


hehe

Well, why do they?

They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths, even if their teachings are quite opposite, yet an Atheist like myself, even one that holds similar morals, is an instant target for scorn. Why?

This is not to say all Theists hate my kind, but there is a large enough number to warrant this thread.

I think the large enough numbers you speak of exist only in your own imagination.

I think the large enough numbers you speak of exist only in your own imagination.

Nah, I think there are enough out there. I couldn't give an exact number, but does "too many" sound right.

By that I mean that there are "too many" bigots and fundamentalists out there, not "too many" Theists.

I find it humorous when atheists call theists "sheep" or "conformist" when all atheists are doing is conforming to a different point of view. It's like a group of goths calling a group of yuppies "conformist". :p



Holding a point of view is not the same as conforming to a point of view. A theist with a personal spirituality who has arrived at that point of view by their own intellectual effort is not a sheep. However, an adherent to a theist sect, who was brought up in that sect, and has never questioned it, simply following whatever doctrine that sect proscribes, is a 'sheep' or 'conformist'. Really, I don't see any fonts of atheist doctrine to conform to.

Really, I don't see any fonts of atheist doctrine to conform to.

Most Atheists would point you towards some papers on Humanist Philosophy and call it a font.

You should try reading Knowledge of Angels by Jill Paton walsh as it deals with this topic. The view held by the 16th C Catholics in the book is that people of other religions are muisguided from birth and cant help being ignorant and are therefore tolerated and pitied. Athiests are killed because they have chosen to reject god completely. A god book but ill go on with my own opinion now. While at uni I live with two Christians who are very passionate about their faith. Since I am not Christian I am looked down on by them and they sometimes speak condescendingly to me and other non Christian friends. I also get the feeling that when they say they respect other peoples religions, it is just something they say to be polite, they cant help it its just they way they are, because they “know” for certain that they are right how can they help looking down on everyone else? Oh and the guy – sorry, lost the name- who said he was out of this problem by being a Pagan, sorry but you are seen by them as the lowest of the low because you are consorting with the devil wheter you know it or not, letting the devil get a hold on you. One was even thinking of not living with me because im interested in such things as tarot card reading. He thinks that bad influence may get to him via me through “pagan rituals”.

I kid you not. He actually said these things. Sorry, I dont want to offend people with similar beliefs but it seems incredulous to me this kind of thing.

I just like to try to have an open mind.

As for the morality thing I agree with some of the others that who is a better person, someone who does the right thing because they have been told to by a higher power and someone who does the right thing only because they have decided it is the right thing to do?

As for the question “why love your neighbour if you don’t beive in a spiritual connection” (here I apologise I probably slightly mis quoted but don’t think I changed its meaning of the question) my answer would be. Do you love your family, your friends? Yours girlfriend/boyfriend? Do you really need a god in your life to love them? If you do, I truly pity you, If you don’t, then I think you see my point, god isn’t necessary in order to love.

This probably makes me look like an atheist too. I do believe in god but leave it as that, I do what I think is right as I believe that being good to other people is more important than worshipping any god. Any god that doesn’t agree with this cannot be all good in my opinion and is therefore unworthy of worshipping.

Thanks for reading

Joe

You should try reading Knowledge of Angels by Jill Paton walsh as it deals with this topic. The view held by the 16th C Catholics in the book is that people of other religions are muisguided from birth and cant help being ignorant and are therefore tolerated and pitied. Athiests are killed because they have chosen to reject god completely. A god book but ill go on with my own opinion now. While at uni I live with two Christians who are very passionate about their faith. Since I am not Christian I am looked down on by them and they sometimes speak condescendingly to me and other non Christian friends. I also get the feeling that when they say they respect other peoples religions, it is just something they say to be polite, they cant help it its just they way they are, because they “know” for certain that they are right how can they help looking down on everyone else? Oh and the guy – sorry, lost the name- who said he was out of this problem by being a Pagan, sorry but you are seen by them as the lowest of the low because you are consorting with the devil wheter you know it or not, letting the devil get a hold on you. One was even thinking of not living with me because im interested in such things as tarot card reading. He thinks that bad influence may get to him via me through “pagan rituals”.

I kid you not. He actually said these things. Sorry, I dont want to offend people with similar beliefs but it seems incredulous to me this kind of thing.

I just like to try to have an open mind.

As for the morality thing I agree with some of the others that who is a better person, someone who does the right thing because they have been told to by a higher power and someone who does the right thing only because they have decided it is the right thing to do?

As for the question “why love your neighbour if you don’t beive in a spiritual connection” (here I apologise I probably slightly mis quoted but don’t think I changed its meaning of the question) my answer would be. Do you love your family, your friends? Yours girlfriend/boyfriend? Do you really need a god in your life to love them? If you do, I truly pity you, If you don’t, then I think you see my point, god isn’t necessary in order to love.

This probably makes me look like an atheist too. I do believe in god but leave it as that, I do what I think is right as I believe that being good to other people is more important than worshipping any god. Any god that doesn’t agree with this cannot be all good in my opinion and is therefore unworthy of worshipping.

Thanks for reading

Joe

Brilliant post Joe. I see a long and happy future for you.

Also, the answers you have given make a lot of sense. Thanks.

b

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P?

P?

Correct!

Full points!!

You win a prize!!!

It's made out of tin foil.

You should try reading Knowledge of Angels by Jill Paton walsh as it deals with this topic. The view held by the 16th C Catholics in the book is that people of other religions are muisguided from birth and cant help being ignorant and are therefore tolerated and pitied. Athiests are killed because they have chosen to reject god completely. A god book but ill go on with my own opinion now. While at uni I live with two Christians who are very passionate about their faith. Since I am not Christian I am looked down on by them and they sometimes speak condescendingly to me and other non Christian friends. I also get the feeling that when they say they respect other peoples religions, it is just something they say to be polite, they cant help it its just they way they are, because they “know” for certain that they are right how can they help looking down on everyone else? Oh and the guy – sorry, lost the name- who said he was out of this problem by being a Pagan, sorry but you are seen by them as the lowest of the low because you are consorting with the devil wheter you know it or not, letting the devil get a hold on you. One was even thinking of not living with me because im interested in such things as tarot card reading. He thinks that bad influence may get to him via me through “pagan rituals”.

I kid you not. He actually said these things. Sorry, I dont want to offend people with similar beliefs but it seems incredulous to me this kind of thing.

I just like to try to have an open mind.

As for the morality thing I agree with some of the others that who is a better person, someone who does the right thing because they have been told to by a higher power and someone who does the right thing only because they have decided it is the right thing to do?

As for the question “why love your neighbour if you don’t beive in a spiritual connection” (here I apologise I probably slightly mis quoted but don’t think I changed its meaning of the question) my answer would be. Do you love your family, your friends? Yours girlfriend/boyfriend? Do you really need a god in your life to love them? If you do, I truly pity you, If you don’t, then I think you see my point, god isn’t necessary in order to love.

This probably makes me look like an atheist too. I do believe in god but leave it as that, I do what I think is right as I believe that being good to other people is more important than worshipping any god. Any god that doesn’t agree with this cannot be all good in my opinion and is therefore unworthy of worshipping.

Thanks for reading

Joe

Tome Grokking Cotterie

You have read Stranger In A Strange Land, haven't you?

Tome Grokking Cotterie

You have read Stranger In A Strange Land, haven't you?

*Confused by this reference* :confused:

Most Atheists would point you towards some papers on Humanist Philosophy and call it a font.

I don't think so. I don't know any atheists who have even read papers on humanist philosophy. Most atheists are atheists because they have rejected theism, not because they have subscribed to some other doctrine. Atheism isn't a doctrine, in the same way that mere theism isn't. Theism just tends to accumulate more doctrine, as there is more to say about a god than about the lack of a god.

Must depend on where you live. I've seen atheists go OFF on Christians merely for the mention that they were Christian. They weren't even being preachy. It was just acknowledged in the discussions (yes, I've seen it happen more than once) and BAM, the atheist was like an attack dog. I've had it happen to me personally, once...and in all honesty, I openly played the 'pity' card just to enrage them further. It was quite fun. :D

I am in no means saying that all atheists are like this. I'm just saying that it does happen.

Now that's just good fun no matter who it is you're enraging. Anyone that prone to attack, rage, or vehement defensiveness deserves to have their tail stepped on.

When I was younger, I would always side with the anti-religious argument, because all I knew were kids my own age who are sometimes the worst representatives of religion. They'd all tell me that I was going to hell, and I'd tell then that was fine, 'cause the music will be better down there -- enjoy your Pat Boone, losers!

But as I grew older and met both atheists who were complete assholes and Christians who were rational, human, patient and nonjudgemental, I began to realize that I could have twice the fun by hanging back in a potential debate, listening to where the most offensive arguments were coming from, and pouncing on whoever deserved to be twinged the most.

So far, I've had the most fun poking at the atheists. They seem to get the most worked up because they haven't got that security blanket of faith to fall back on when their rationalizations are shredded. I'm a big fan of live and let live and will only go to bat for my own particular beliefs if someone provokes me or a friend/family member to the point where it can't be ignored.

So I say relax, sit back, watch the fireworks and chime in when the time is right. *kicks back in his comfy portable chaise lounge, sucking a fresh limeade*

Have at you! :D

I don't think so. I don't know any atheists who have even read papers on humanist philosophy.

Then if we get to know each other I shall be the first.

I feel it is rather distasteful to discuss religion. When people discuss religion it seems like a sales pitch or a conversion contest. The same goes for people who are godless all of a sudden it's not enough for one to be godless one must run out like the town cryer and announce their godlessness. O.K. now lets everybody get out our rulebooks and see if we are eligible to play amongst each other.

Now that's just good fun no matter who it is you're enraging. Anyone that prone to attack, rage, or vehement defensiveness deserves to have their tail stepped on.

When I was younger, I would always side with the anti-religious argument, because all I knew were kids my own age who are sometimes the worst representatives of religion. They'd all tell me that I was going to hell, and I'd tell then that was fine, 'cause the music will be better down there -- enjoy your Pat Boone, losers!

But as I grew older and met both atheists who were complete assholes and Christians who were rational, human, patient and nonjudgemental, I began to realize that I could have twice the fun by hanging back in a potential debate, listening to where the most offensive arguments were coming from, and pouncing on whoever deserved to be twinged the most.

So far, I've had the most fun poking at the atheists. They seem to get the most worked up because they haven't got that security blanket of faith to fall back on when their rationalizations are shredded. I'm a big fan of live and let live and will only go to bat for my own particular beliefs if someone provokes me or a friend/family member to the point where it can't be ignored.

So I say relax, sit back, watch the fireworks and chime in when the time is right. *kicks back in his comfy portable chaise lounge, sucking a fresh limeade*

Have at you! :D
No no no.. you missed my point. I was playing the "I pity YOU" card. Throwing disdain and pity at someone who so openly feels themself to be superior to you is a sure-fire way to watch them just go nuts....and it's quite fun. :D

I should have been more specific. :p

Where do atheist go when they die? J.J.

Simple...

First they go to the morgue for autopsy.
Then they are sent to the undertakers.
After that a hearse takes them to the location of the funeral.
There they are either buried, burnt or something else.
That is all.

The same happens to Theists, although they will tell you there is somewhere else not found by cartographers.

Then if we get to know each other I shall be the first.

Do you call it a font? :p

Do you call it a font? :p

Depends. What is "it"?

Depends. What is "it"?

Papers on humanist philosophy. Apparently, aka 'Atheist brainwashing manual'.

Papers on humanist philosophy. Apparently, aka 'Atheist brainwashing manual'.

In that case, I don't call it a "font". I call it a "book".

In that case, I don't call it a "font". I call it a "book".

Excellent! Case closed.

Theists don't hate Atheists, it is just that Atheists become very irritating and rude when they make fun of those who have a religion they follow. Religious people don't make fun of people because they don't have a god, why should people who don't believe in a god make fun of those who do?

"Ha ha! Your an atheist!" (Unheard of, to me)

"Ha ha! Your a Christian!" (Way overhead, if you ask me)

People should just respect eachother's differences and not argue of what is right. Your not going to convince a religious person to give up their god, nor are you going to convince a non-religious person (in most cases) to accept a god.

Pfft.

Excellent! Case closed.


lol

i don't think i've ever met an theist that has hated atheists are maybe they did and never said. i'm positive there are, but that's likely because they aren't practicing really.
however, me being an theist have been unsuccessfully oppressed by atheists all my life. telling me how dumb i am etc and telling me im the conformist when they all spurn me the same, tell me the same negative thoughts about my religion and i'm sure the reason they believe in evolution is simply because they don't wanna believe in God, because seemingly none are actually on neutral level with him. although, they may hate it, but they tolerate it i guess. despite some protests against it in the public.
It really hit me when my best friend told me he wanted to see me dead since I believed in God, but i know this doesn't apply all atheists. Had I not been a firm believer I would have really done some bad things, but thankfully i got over it and forgive him.
on the internet i always see the atheists starting hate threads first, it may not be intentional, but it always turns into one.
but what can you do... better to embrace than to hate. it is always said in the bible that Christians would be hated. sometimes it gets on my nerves tho.

I can sympathize because I've had similar experiences growing up, but from the other side of this coin. Rings of little kids chanting "you're going to he-ell" once they discover that I don't go to church on Sundays. This is not a theist/atheist trait, this is a human trait. Once poeple have identified themselves as part of a group, they almost immediately and invariably seek out like minded folks. Following that, they seek the OTHERS -- the great THEM against whom they can unify. Occasionally, the THEM seeks out the initial group because their beliefs/style of dress/taste in music/language/you-name-it is different than those in the mainstream.

Either way, it's a pain in the ass for those who aren't in line with the prevailing ideology, whatever it may be. So I suggest lots of reading, perhaps a little weight training and self-defense if your tormentors are really getting physical, and should that fail, depending on where you are, you're entitled to protection from that kind of harassment. Most importantly, to thine own self be true (good advice despite the fact that it got Polonius killed because he was a nosy old fool).

Keep the faith. It's what makes you who you are.

Excellent! Case closed.

*Closes case*

Now what are we going to do?

Until a crazy Theist comes a-knockin', that is.

Simple...

First they go to the morgue for autopsy.
Then they are sent to the undertakers.
After that a hearse takes them to the location of the funeral.
There they are either buried, burnt or something else.
That is all.

The same happens to Theists, although they will tell you there is somewhere else not found by cartographers.

The problem of death is that in fact, no one can ever know anything about what expects us after it. The two possibilities are:
-there is nothing, our consciousness simply vanishes
-there is something, our consciousness goes ahead in some way

if there is nothing, well the bad thing is that we haven't known the truth for our entire life, and when we die we still don't know it. Irritant. But probably it's the irony of mankind.

if there is something, rationally thinking the possibilities are endless
the "heaven and hell" theory has in fact the same chances to be true than a theory which says that after death we all meet in a big stadium and play cricket for eternity
maybe the truth is something that no one has imagined yet
or is not imaginable for our minds
of one thing I am sure: in front of all endless and potentially incredible possibilities, "heaven and hell" theory just sounds... stupid

Until a crazy Theist comes a-knockin', that is.

... I find that insulting.

I know some atheists who say that when your dead, your dead. You don't have a soul, your dead. Your gone. Your just a biological lifeform and you end there. Your dead. Your dead. Your gone. Nothing happens.

... but yet, they believe in ghosts.

Ghosts!?

How can someone who doesn't believe people move on somehow still believe in ghosts as well? They obviously, as I see it, don't really have their faith planned out, and just say, "Hell, I'm an atheist now."

The problem of death is that in fact, no one can ever know anything about what expects us after it. The two possibilities are:
-there is nothing, our consciousness simply vanishes
-there is something, our consciousness goes ahead in some way

if there is nothing, well the bad thing is that we haven't known the truth for our entire life, and when we die we still don't know it. Irritant. But probably it's the irony mankind.

if there is something, rationally thinking the possibilities are endless
the "heaven and hell" theory has in fact the same chances to be true than a theory which says that after death we all meet in a big stadium and play cricket for eternity
maybe the truth is something that no one has imagined yet
or is not imaginable for our minds
of one thing I am sure: in front of all endless and potentially incredible possibilities, "heaven and hell" theory just sounds... stupid

This also raises the question: which is better?

An eternal sleep?

Or an eternal afterlife?

... I find that insulting.

Sorry. Maybe I should have made myself clearer.

Crazy Theist: One who uses cAPS lOCK where it is unadviseable, also forgets spelling and punctuation, all for the sake of converting people to their faith.

Most Theists are extremely sane and rational. I did not mean to suggest otherwise.

Until a crazy Theist comes a-knockin', that is.


... I find that insulting.

Why, are you crazy?

This also raises the question: which is better?

An eternal sleep?

Or an eternal afterlife?


It depends from the afterlife, I guess

I know some atheists who say that when your dead, your dead. You don't have a soul, your dead. Your gone. Your just a biological lifeform and you end there. Your dead. Your dead. Your gone. Nothing happens.

... but yet, they believe in ghosts.

Ghosts!?

How can someone who doesn't believe people move on somehow still believe in ghosts as well? They obviously, as I see it, don't really have their faith planned out, and just say, "Hell, I'm an atheist now."

Uh...what do you mean, exactly? I know of no atheists who believe in ghosts. It kinda goes along with the "no-soul" thing. Unless you're using "atheist" to mean "non-Christian" or "non-mainstream-religion", which it most certainly does not mean.

It depends from the afterlife, I guess

An afterlife spent in the company of Jack Chick and Kent Hovind, while kissing God's sandalled feet, while he sits there on his giant throne and passively 'loves' you in some distant, aloof kind of way. Forever and ever. Amen.

I know some atheists who say that when your dead, your dead. You don't have a soul, your dead. Your gone. Your just a biological lifeform and you end there. Your dead. Your dead. Your gone. Nothing happens.

... but yet, they believe in ghosts.

Ghosts!?

How can someone who doesn't believe people move on somehow still believe in ghosts as well? They obviously, as I see it, don't really have their faith planned out, and just say, "Hell, I'm an atheist now."
Not all atheists believe in ghosts. In fact, I'd say that quite a good many write that off as a totally invalid belief.

This also raises the question: which is better?

An eternal sleep?

Or an eternal afterlife?

I suppose that depends upon your fondness for sleep.

I suppose that depends upon your fondness for sleep.

I like sleep.

I hate boredom.

Christian Heaven would get boring.

Question answered.

This also raises the question: which is better?

An eternal sleep?

Or an eternal afterlife?


sleep? if you conciousness dies, you don't sleep. You cease to exist. Try thinking of not existing any more its mind boggling.

I've tried. It hurt my head.

Of course, try thinking about living for eternity. Hurts my head too. :)

either way we don't have the ability to fathom either scenario.


oh, btw. I don't hate atheists. I don't agree with them, but I don't hate them.
Those who do hate them are too stuck on the letter of the law and not up with the spirit of the law. Those who promote that hate are poor poor examples of their religion. They make me sad.

And afterlife could also NOT be eternal...

Just out of curiosity:

"Many people who have read this are Theists. No doubt the have felt some emotion about my Atheistic ways. Is anyone going to pray for me?"

If the answer is yes, please don't.

And if we sometimes get you angry, well... are you Christians? Forgive us.


hehehe

*looks around*

sorry

Just out of curiosity:

"Many people who have read this are Theists. No doubt the have felt some emotion about my Atheistic ways. Is anyone going to pray for me?"

If the answer is yes, please don't.

Smart ass.
As a theist I can state with certainty that I could care less about atheists. My wife is an atheist, I would like her to begin to believe a religion but if she does not that will be okay and I would never loo down on her.
In reading on these forums I have found both sides give and good as they get when it comes to scorn, insult and dislike. Both sides seems convinced of their superiority, both sides claim the other is unreasonable. I think it would be best if they just left each other alone.
Personally I believe that both sides love picking on the other, love getting a rise out of the other. It is entertaining and it makes them feel as if they have done something.

Smart ass.
As a theist I can state with certainty that I could care less about atheists. My wife is an atheist, I would like her to begin to believe a religion but if she does not that will be okay and I would never loo down on her.
In reading on these forums I have found both sides give and good as they get when it comes to scorn, insult and dislike. Both sides seems convinced of their superiority, both sides claim the other is unreasonable. I think it would be best if they just left each other alone.
Personally I believe that both sides love picking on the other, love getting a rise out of the other. It is entertaining and it makes them feel as if they have done something.

A most valid point.

Whilst historically the Theist has been more aggressive in pushing their views to others, the Internet means that Atheists are catching up real fast I suppose.

To be honest, I don't really get a kick out of insulting Theists. Whilst I do enjoy a reasonable theological debate from time to time, I generally try not to use insults unless I'm pushed to it. I think many of us (both Atheist and Theist) are like that.

Judging from a series of conversations I've had, on and off, with my flatmate (a devout Catholic) for the better part of a year, I would venture a guess at the following:

A theist's beliefs grant him a feeling of self-worth and happiness. The views of an atheist, if correct, would count against this feeling of self-worth. Since the theist doesn't want to feel unhappy, he sometimes feels that he must actively disprove the atheist's views in order to keep a justification for that sense of self-realisation.

This, incidentally, is why I've learned not to venture an opinion on anything that I suspect to be a Firmly Held Belief unless he specifically asks for one. I think it's a pity that he sometimes doesn't seem to want to listen to both sides of the argument, but I realise that he's happier doing so, and I respect that. :(

A most valid point.

Whilst historically the Theist has been more aggressive in pushing their views to others, the Internet means that Atheists are catching up real fast I suppose.

To be honest, I don't really get a kick out of insulting Theists. Whilst I do enjoy a reasonable theological debate from time to time, I generally try not to use insults unless I'm pushed to it. I think many of us (both Atheist and Theist) are like that.

I think so as well. In nations that follow traditional Democratic/European ideals atheists have had little real power and so have been the victims of oppression quite often. In nations that adopted quasi-communist schemes the atheists came to power and have oppressed theists of all sorts.
Those in power often abuse it.
The people who fire off at each other on these forums probably have little real power to do anything so in a sense, if they have an intolerance of another way of thinking it is more of entertainment value than real value in the world.

A theist's beliefs grant him a feeling of self-worth and happiness. The views of an atheist, if correct, would count against this feeling of self-worth. Since the theist doesn't want to feel unhappy, he sometimes feels that he must actively disprove the atheist's views in order to keep a justification for that sense of self-realisation.

Opium for the masses.

Well, why do they?

They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths, even if their teachings are quite opposite, yet an Atheist like myself, even one that holds similar morals, is an instant target for scorn. Why?

This is not to say all Theists hate my kind, but there is a large enough number to warrant this thread.I don't hate athiests, in fact have several atheist friends... but I really wish I would not be grouped with other Christians because of your bad experience. Furthermore, I really don't like it when athiests group themselves together. People are individuals, and should not be judged (criticized, insulted, discriminated, etc.) because of the acts of those who carry the same title.



On a philisophical level - other religions share something in common with Christians that atheists do not - belief in a higher power.

I don't hate athiests, in fact have several atheist friends... but I really wish I would not be grouped with other Christians because of your bad experience. Furthermore, I really don't like it when athiests group themselves together. People are individuals, and should not be judged (criticized, insulted, discriminated, etc.) because of the acts of those who carry the same title.



On a philisophical level - other religions share something in common with Christians that atheists do not - belief in a higher power.

Two things.

First off, I try myself not to group Theists into one big mass of person, as I tried (and failed, it seems) to explain in the last sentence.

Second off, are you basically saying that some Theists are happy if you worship something, and sort out the finer details later?

Well, why do they?

They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths, even if their teachings are quite opposite, yet an Atheist like myself, even one that holds similar morals, is an instant target for scorn. Why?

This is not to say all Theists hate my kind, but there is a large enough number to warrant this thread.
Another forum I visit, ethical atheist, recently got hacked by a christian who claimed that the forum was offensive...

www.ethicalatheist.com

I don't think the forums are back up yet, or at least they weren't yesterday.

But yeah, I know he's not representative of the entire population of theists, let alone christians. Some people are jackasses and that's it.

Edit: apparantly it has been hacked again.

Another forum I visit, ethical atheist, recently got hacked by a christian who claimed that the forum was offensive...

www.ethicalatheist.com

I don't think the forums are back up yet, or at least they weren't yesterday.

But yeah, I know he's not representative of the entire population of theists, let alone christians. Some people are jackasses and that's it.

Edit: apparantly it has been hacked again.

As I said in my RMPS class, "arseholes are arseholes because they are arseholes". This man is an arsehole. Not all Theists are.

My sympathies to all those who suffers the indignanty of this person trying to have something in common with you.

The thing is: What would stop people from going crazy if there was no religion to set up any kind of guideline for behavior. You kill a couple thousand people. Without anything telling us what to do and what not to do, so what? What's the worst that can happen? Death? So what? If no one ever believed that there was a guy up there who can send us to hell forever if we are bad, why make rules now? Theists killed aetheists because they believed that they could use fear to convert people. This is ironic in that the beliefs of theists condemn such acts. Also, people don't want to be told that they are retarded for believing in the guy upstairs. Unless someone proves that there never was someone up there making everything (notice how everything just happened to work out to make life possible.) just right, then the aetheists should just shut the heck up. And if the theists can't prove that there really is someone up there making everything work out, they too should keep those anuses in their heads closed.

The thing is: What would stop people from going crazy if there was no religion to set up any kind of guideline for behavior. You kill a couple thousand people. Without anything telling us what to do and what not to do, so what? What's the worst that can happen? Death? So what? If no one ever believed that there was a guy up there who can send us to hell forever if we are bad, why make rules now? Theists killed aetheists because they believed that they could use fear to convert people. This is ironic in that the beliefs of theists condemn such acts. Also, people don't want to be told that they are retarded for believing in the guy upstairs. Unless someone proves that there never was someone up there making everything (notice how everything just happened to work out to make life possible.) just right, then the aetheists should just shut the heck up. And if the theists can't prove that there really is someone up there making everything work out, they too should keep those anuses in their heads closed.

Problem is, it's a fundamental tenet of Christianity to go out there and try and convert as many heretics into good little Christian children as is possible.

So they're never gonna shut up about how the Lord has this whole bribery / punishment scheme set up that does a Big Brother on our lives and rewards us or damns us accordingly.

I was brought up in a religion that doesn't proselytize, and I'm GLAD of the emotional balance such an upbringing affords me, even if I have parted ways with its strictures.

I think as such it's impossible for me to hate those who have what I'd consider to be blinkered beliefs.

Pity them for the needless waste, yes, but not hate.

A large number of people are saying that atheists actually hate theists.

Speaking as an atheist, I must say that I only hate theists that try to push their beliefs onto me, whereas many theists (Key word: MANY, not all, not most) hate atheists just for being atheist.

Well, why do they?

They seem pretty tolerant to other faiths, even if their teachings are quite opposite, yet an Atheist like myself, even one that holds similar morals, is an instant target for scorn. Why?

This is not to say all Theists hate my kind, but there is a large enough number to warrant this thread.
that seems an unfair question...i start a Christian thread, and i get jumped on by dozens of angry atheists. i myself do not hate ahteists, but prefer not to associate with them, as they (some, not all) like to ruin everything i try to do.