NationStates Jolt Archive

Good or bad? Let me know what you think, and why....

If the roads are good and taxes for roads are elminated, then it only makes sense.

Why should you pay taxes for road use if you take the subway everyday? This system would eliminate that issue.

It is a bad idea as it will affect everyone in the same way regardless of their economic situation and it will also increase the power of the state by allowing them to find out where anyone's car is through the planned compulsory satellite tracking devices.

Fuel taxes were supposed to accomplish this. It's a good idea to have one or the other though, not both, and at least with toll roads it means one can really bitch about potholes and semi tire debris scattered all over.

If the roads are good and taxes for roads are elminated, then it only makes sense.

Why should you pay taxes for road use if you take the subaway everyday? This system would eliminate that issue.

On the other hand, why should drivers have to pay more when the government already collects far more in taxes from car owners than it spends in road construction, maintenence and repair. Especially when the surplus is mostly used to fund decrepit and inefficient systems like the subway. It's about time subway riders ponied up some cash.

Also, it's probably inflationary.

(And regressive, not that that really bothers me, but if you are a leftist it is reason enough).

Fuel taxes were supposed to accomplish this. It's a good idea to have one or the other though, not both, and at least with toll roads it means one can really bitch about potholes and semi tire debris scattered all over.

It will also reduce congestion, increase the use of public transport and cut down pollution

On the other hand, why should drivers have to pay more when the government already collects far more in taxes from car owners than it spends in road construction, maintenence and repair. Especially when the surplus is mostly used to fund decrepit and inefficient systems like the subway. It's about time subway riders ponied up some cash.

Also, it's probably inflationary.

(And regressive, not that that really bothers me, but if you are a leftist it is reason enough).

you reckon that taxes from cars cover road constuction and maintenence? I think you better look that up.

What about tourists of foreign HGV's?

What happens are they suppost to get a 'black box' before they come to Britain?

This idea wreaks of the NASA space pen...high level of fuel tax achieves the following.

1.Makes motoring expensive enough so it's doesn't become wasteful
2.The more polluting your car the more tax you pay, and theyfore discourages polluting cars.
3.creates tax to run the system

As i see it the new shceme taxes people when they are making vital journeys (work etc) but the government provides no alternitive to car use in many areas.

Here is my plan to reduce congestion.

First encourage cities to build up, increase population dencity this would allow people to live closer to where they work giving them more options such as walking, cycling. With a higher population dencity public transport would also be much more cost effective.

Also keep fuel duty but also introduce zone charging in all, major cities, keep the city centres clear.

Finally massively improve public transport give people the option to ditch their car.

Unfortunately, it will also badly affect people in rural areas (no public transport + no local facilities = lots of driving), and it also means that the government can track your car at all times, using a tracking device that (like the proposed ID cards) you will have to pay for.

Assuming that we are talking about Britain.

On the other hand, why should drivers have to pay more when the government already collects far more in taxes from car owners than it spends in road construction, maintenence and repair. Especially when the surplus is mostly used to fund decrepit and inefficient systems like the subway. It's about time subway riders ponied up some cash.

Also, it's probably inflationary.

(And regressive, not that that really bothers me, but if you are a leftist it is reason enough).
(Leftist?! I run the only radical republican NS party on NS! :))

But how about this:

If all transportation taxes are abolished for all modes of transportation listed expect for the toll mentioned.
If people who only drive pay road tolls, but no other tolls.
If people who only take the train pay train fare, but no other tolls.
If subway users only pay subway fares, but no other tolls.
If monorail users only pay monorail fares, but no other tolls.
If Elevated Train users only pay Elevated Train fares, but no other tolls.
If ferry users only pay ferry tickets, but no other tolls.
If bus users only pay bus fares, but no other tolls.
If airplane users pay airport fees, but no other non-aviation related tolls.
If people who walk, hike, run, swim, or bike pay no transportation fees.

On the one hand it will cut road use.

On the other, it'll cost. A lot.

Of course since I plan on using public transport it's somewhat moot unless they plough it all back into public transport.

It will also reduce congestion, increase the use of public transport and cut down pollution

The reason why people often don't use public transport is because it is invariably shit. I fail to see how punishing people for voting with their feet in this matter is a good thing.

If governments really wanted people to use more public transport, they could start by actually running decent systems.

Take New York City for example, the formerly private mass transit system has been virtually run into the ground, despite having multi billion dollar budgets for things. (Actually they recently "lost" nearly a billion dollars with dodgy accounting.) It's a disgrace. Indeed, if the MTA was in private hands, most of its top executives would be in jail.

Instead of punishing drivers, governments should try and provide a decent alternative. That would maybe get people to switch.

fuel duty is a tax on pollution as well as how far you drive

road use charging is just a tax on how far you drive

and it would put my dad, and others with similar jobs, out of a job

and probably increase the cost of anything transported by road...

The reason why people often don't use public transport is because it is invariably shit. I fail to see how punishing people for voting with their feet in this matter is a good thing.

If governments really wanted people to use more public transport, they could start by actually running decent systems.

Take New York City for example, the formerly private mass transit system has been virtually run into the ground, despite having multi billion dollar budgets for things. (Actually they recently "lost" nearly a billion dollars with dodgy accounting.) It's a disgrace. Indeed, if the MTA was in private hands, most of its top executives would be in jail.

Instead of punishing drivers, governments should try and provide a decent alternative. That would maybe get people to switch.

Now take a wild guess where the money to do this is going to come from? How about the excess of road toll and congestion charges for entering the city in a car

It is probably going to become a fact of life anyway you look at it. Since the highway racket is paid for with fuel taxes and there is a push for hydrogen they will have to come up with a way to gouge for that too.

We already pay as we go in New Jersey. All major roads have tolls.
And there is a substantial tax on gasoline that goes toward roads.

(Leftist?! I run the only radical republican NS party on NS! :))

But how about this:

If all transportation taxes are abolished for all modes of transportation listed expect for the toll mentioned.
If people who only drive pay road tolls, but no other tolls.
If people who only take the train pay train fare, but no other tolls.
If subway users only pay subway fares, but no other tolls.
If monorail users only pay monorail fares, but no other tolls.
If Elevated Train users only pay Elevated Train fares, but no other tolls.
If ferry users only pay ferry tickets, but no other tolls.
If bus users only pay bus fares, but no other tolls.
If airplane users pay airport fees, but no other non-aviation related tolls.
If people who walk, hike, run, swim, or bike pay no transportation fees.

I am not against that in theory. However in the case of roads it might be logistically difficult to implement. What do you do, for example, about local roads? Placing tolls everywhere is logistically difficult, and I don't like the idea of the government - or anyone else - tracking my car twenty-four hours a day.

In any case, fuel taxes already accomplish the pay for use requirement. Just stick with those.

The reason why people often don't use public transport is because it is invariably shit.

Although i agree with sentiment even when the public transport is good lots of people still don't use it.

I'll give you an example, i live in Derbyshire and the bus service is really good, every 10 minutes, it also runs for 5am to 1am. I
take the bus every day on the nice new clean bus and buy a week ticket, that ticket costs £6.50. Or 92p per day. I can travel for almost 20 miles in any direction as many times as i want. great serivce.

However, every week day when i go to work, i normally see my next dorr neighbour in his car sat in the same very long traffic jam (we work in the same office) until my bus slides into the bus lane and i arrive 5-10 minutes before him.

He does the same journey as i do, it costs me less and gets me to where i want to be quicker i also get to read my book...yet my neighbour just won't change despite the obvious advantages.

I think there are 1000's of people like that out there so maybe they need a little prod...of course the thing that would really make cars users get out of their cars is congestion. :)

yeah, it's an excellent idea. i mean, check out how the london congestion charge has worked. also, it charges the externality, not the good, as fuel charges do.

We already pay as we go in New Jersey. All major roads have tolls.
And there is a substantial tax on gasoline that goes toward roads.

substantial tax? you don't know the meaning of the word my friend ;)

Although i agree with sentiment even when the public transport is good lots of people still don't use it.

I'll give you an example, i live in Derbyshire and the bus service is really good, every 10 minutes, it also runs for 5am to 1am. I
take the bus every day on the nice new clean bus and buy a week ticket, that ticket costs £6.50. Or 92p per day. I can travel for almost 20 miles in any direction as many times as i want. great serivce.

However, every week day when i go to work, i normally see my next dorr neighbour in his car sat in the same very long traffic jam (we work in the same office) until my bus slides into the bus lane and i arrive 5-10 minutes before him.

He does the same journey as i do, it costs me less and gets me to where i want to be quicker i also get to read my book...yet my neighbour just won't change despite the obvious advantages.

I think there are 1000's of people like that out there so maybe they need a little prod...of course the thing that would really make cars users get out of their cars is congestion. :)

Well, there are always going to be people who use there cars no-matter what. At the same time there are people like my brother who doesn't own a car, and will go to almost any length to avoid driving because he hates it.

Those are the extremes however. If you provide an efficient clean public transport system, a lot of people will use it. I certainly use public transport when it is the better option. (Actually when I am England I use it a lot, because it is rather good there).

I live in NYC now, and I have to say, the only time I found public transport to approach anything like efficient was when I lived in Manhattan - and only because I never really went anywhere on it I couldn't actually walk except for downtown. The system here has serious flaws, and was designed for pre-war (WWII) conditions. For example, for me to get downtown takes well over an hour and a half using the bus and subway, and it is only fourteen miles. I can do it in about an hour and ten if I use metro-north as well. Even in the heaviest traffic driving is usually forty-five minutes, far less off peak.

Midtown is a lot easier, unless I have to get over to the east. Then forget it. What a nightmare. (Bus and two subways).

If I am going to visit people in other outlying parts of the city, it's virtually impossible. It's far easier for me to get from Newcastle to Edinburgh using public transport, than to get to many parts of my own city. (And I mean from a suburb to a suburb, not center to center).

Unless the government addresses these issues, public transport is always going to avoided by many people. And just financially punishing car owners as an incentive to get them on mass transit is not going to cure the underlying ills.

The subway is also filthy, and in a wretched state of repair.

(You can buy little bottles of scotch in Grand Central station to drink on Metro North though, so it's not all bad.)