NationStates Jolt Archive

What do you guys think is the most important freedom in maintaining a free society.

Poll to come

The right to be responsible for yourself and your actions.

What do you guys think is the most important freedom in maintaining a free society.

Poll to come
The right to arm yourself is the right which guarantees all of the others, but I would have to say that I consider freedom of speech as a bit more important in most circumstances.

Freedom of Speech and choice tied for me. Speech allows assembly, religion, press, and expression. Choice is just as important.

beats me

im thinking its the freedom to own private property and to the fruits of your own labor.

Deffinantly the right to bear arms.

Deffinantly the right to bear arms.
Say more. I tend to agree with that being the one right which guarantees all the others, but generally speaking, it's not going to be necessary under most circumstances.

Freedom of speech is my second choice.

Once this is gone the populace is effectivly screwed.

Freedom of speech, i imagine

I chose expression, becaue that encompasses speech, petition, assembley, etc.

Speech and expression are very similar...but I think expression covers more than just speech, so that may very well be the most important.

You cannot value one freedom over another, or at least I can't

I've never heard of "freedom of thought." That's just redundant.
Many of these options ought to be pooled together to make a better poll.
(Just a suggestion)

How 'bout I just say "the 1st amendment."
That should cover the most important freedoms.

Freedom of Thought seems the most pivotal, as without it the other freedoms don't do you much good. If someone can control what thoughts run through your head then they effectively control what you know, say, choose to do, etc.

But as far as practical freedoms I'd say Speech.

The right to arm yourself is the right which guarantees all of the others, but I would have to say that I consider freedom of speech as a bit more important in most circumstances.

Rubbish! If that were the case, all nations without the USAs love of weapons would be fascist dictatorships.

The fifth freedom, in the US that is.

What do you guys think is the most important freedom in maintaining a free society.

Poll to come
Nothing in the poll. The right to bear arms is the right that will guarantee all the others.

You cannot value one freedom over another, or at least I can't

Personally I'm not too big on the freedom to jump out of a airplane w/out a parachute ;)

Rubbish! If that were the case, all nations without the USAs love of weapons would be fascist dictatorships.
Rubbish back on you. Just because a government like, oh, Germany, is free and democratic at the present time, there is no guarantee that they will not take away the liberties of the citizens at some point in the future. Is there?

Nothing in the poll. The right to bear arms is the right that will guarantee all the others.

...except for the right to live, which btw is prerequisite for all the others :rolleyes:

Rubbish back on you. Just because a government like, oh, Germany, is free and democratic at the present time, there is no guarantee that they will not take away the liberties of the citizens at some point in the future. Is there?

You mean you actually think the USA is free?

Many of those freedoms overlap.. so.. eh..

the freedom to do pretty much whatever you want.

in order for a society to be truly free, you need all of the freedoms listed plus more
:sniper:

You mean you actually think the USA is free?
I think we do pretty well when you stack us up against other countries I have visited. Except for the darned covenants that my homeowner's association tries to enforce.

What particular freedom are you lacking?

I'd kinda like to know what Freedom of Luxury is... that's a new one to me. ;)

I think we do pretty well when you stack us up against other countries I have visited. Except for the darned covenants that my homeowner's association tries to enforce.

What particular freedom are you lacking?

Ew.. the average Homeowners' Association's CC&R's are probably the biggest restriction on freedom to be found in this country.. you consent to them, technically, but some of the stuff I've seen them include are just all-out un-American.. eugh.

I think when you start writing down exactly what your freedoms are, you become less free.

I'd kinda like to know what Freedom of Luxury is... that's a new one to me. ;)
I think that's reserved for Republicans. You understand that, according to Howard Dean, Republicans have never done an honest days work in their lives, don't you?

What do you guys think is the most important freedom in maintaining a free society.

Poll to come



Speech. Thought can NEVER be taken away.

I'm not saying that it is unthinkable that someone would take thought away, but without sci-fi era technology, it simply could not be done.

Therefore, if the right to think is truely unalienable, then man must have the right to express those thoughts.

Freedom of speech.

I think that's reserved for Republicans. You understand that, according to Howard Dean, Republicans have never done an honest days work in their lives, don't you?

Ah, I get it now. I guess all us Capitalists see success as an inalienable right, or something.. Hehe. :)

Damnit people, it's the fifth freedom! The freedom to protect all others? Come on... :mp5: with crazy US ninjas like that one.

Speech. Thought can NEVER be taken away.

I'm not saying that it is unthinkable that someone would take thought away, but without sci-fi era technology, it simply could not be done.

Therefore, if the right to think is truely unalienable, then man must have the right to express those thoughts.

Freedom of speech.
Not so fast, pal. Think about what the wildly popular "hate-crime" legislation really means. ...

Okay, if you are a white guy and you beat and rob another white guy, it's not because you had any hateful intentions, unless he was gay. But if you are white and you beat and rob a black guy in the same manner, then you might be guilty of hating the man. In Georgia, whether or not you hated the man while you beat him is decided at sentencing and it adds years to the prison term.

Now if this is not an attempt to control thought, I don't know what is. Crime is crime. If you deprive someone of his right to life, liberty, or property, then you are guilty of a crime. Whether you beat the man because he was black, gay, or because you just felt like it doesn't matter, unless the government is trying to promote some kind of punishment for your state of mind -- your thoughts.

Ah, I get it now. I guess all us Capitalists see success as an inalienable right, or something.. Hehe. :)
It's either that or the freedom "from" luxury means that I don't have to wax the Maybach this weekend. I will have one of the poor, less fortunate ones come by to do the honors.

Or maybe it means that we are freed from the burden of luxury and live in a perfect communist parad...Sorry, I choked from laughing.

no i still think its property and labor. without those things what good is it to be able to say what you want?

Information.

Freedom to have guns? Again, I'm baffled. Do you mean to say that when the US Government declares an evil commi-muslim dictatorship, you are going to go out and defeat the US Army with a hand gun?
The Iraqis couldn't do it, so why could you?

The reason the German Government doesn't take away all our right is because of our constitution. But that's right, only in the US they have a proper democratic system, in the rest of the world it's the dark ages. :rolleyes:
In fact, the US President is more likely to be able to declare a dictatorship than the German Chancellor.

Freedom to own things? Hmmm, fair enough, but I believe you also have a freedom to live in good circumstances and with dignity, to have enough food and housing for your family. And I chose the second over the first, because I know that the first is going to be used as an excuse to ignore the second.

So Information it is. It encompasses free speech, and only with information can individuals make choices. It's the most basic right, from which all others come. Even if you have all the rights in the world, without clear information, you cannot exercise any of those rights, because you don't know what you're doing.

I think we do pretty well when you stack us up against other countries I have visited. Except for the darned covenants that my homeowner's association tries to enforce.

What particular freedom are you lacking?

That post would make sense were it directed at another American. But the person you're addressing, The Mindset, is British. So responding to his joke that the USA isn't free, by asking him what freedom his own country is missing, makes no sense.

That post would make sense were it directed at another American. But the person you're addressing, The Mindset, is British. So responding to his joke that the USA isn't free, by asking him what freedom his own country is missing, makes no sense.
So, what is the matter? He isn't quick enough to make the substitutions and tell me what I'm missing instead? Or is it just past his bedtime?

After much debate between me, myself, and I, I overwhelmed myself via sledgehammer, which scared me into compliance. We agreed on freedom of choice, because without freedom of choice, you couldn't even choose whether or not to make use of your other freedoms, thus they would be worthless.

So, what is the matter? He isn't quick enough to make the substitutions and tell me what I'm missing instead? Or is it just past his bedtime?


Well you see that's precisely my point. The guy you were addressing didn't respond to you because your post was so misinformed as to appear idiotic. And all due to the fact that you assumed things without paying attention to circumstances (such as you're presence in a british forum).

I'm trying to help you here.

Well my definitions for some freedoms vary from your views,

For instance, freedom of thought, in a sense, can be controlled, not in the sci-fi method of literally controlling someone's mind, but brainwashing them through nationalistic propoganda and only hearing one side of view. If your government denies you more than one side of a story, they are effectively denying you freedom of information and freedom of thought.

Freedom of Luxury is, in my definition, to be able to own more crap than others, ex. U.S. has a high free. lux. rating, while communist U.S.S.R. for example, denied everyone except the higher ups in the party freedom of luxury.

Blah, its like 1 AM Thurs. now, and the humidity is STILL HIGH! omg i'm just gonna roam the forums all night....

Well you see that's precisely my point. The guy you were addressing didn't respond to you because your post was so misinformed as to appear idiotic. And all due to the fact that you assumed things without paying attention to circumstances (such as you're presence in a british forum).

I'm trying to help you here.

Well, that and his post was made at 2AM my time when I was asleep. However, I will respond now. I'm Scottish, and at the moment out parliament is seeking civil unions for gays (like myself). This is more than I can say for America, which is attempting to legislate sexuality in its constitution, and enroach creationism etc. into what should be a secular education - it being a nation which preaches "seperation of church and state." The fact that you can buy a gun in America has not stopped the people in the White House from taking away your freedoms to a secular education and equal rights for everyone, including gays.

I said the freedom of the press.

Sometimes I think the press is the only thing that keeps government officials from trying to do every single crazy thing that comes to mind.

Without a free and independent press, we'd have no way of knowing when the government was trying to screw us over.

Granted, the press hasn't been doing the best job of that lately, but they do get it right some of the time...and it's a hell of a lot better than State-run media outlets.

I say expression. For expression encompasses most of the list, ie. Speech, assemply, religion. . . are all forms of expression.

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

The Iraqi Intelligence Minister has informed his audience that there is no freedom, so there is no important freedom, because freedom does not exist.

Freedom of information. Speech, press and expression are already limited in most (all?) countries.

When the government controls your thoughts, there is nothing that you control yourself.

Let's condense the list to core freedom's:

Speech
Press
Information
Expression
Religion
Petition

All the same: Free Speech


Assembly
Religion [sic, listing twice covers both the message of the faith (speech) and act of going of church/synagogue/mosque/temple/etc (assembly))

All the same: freedom of assembly (without freedom of assembly, there can be no freedom of religion


Choice

A tadge nebulous, unless you mean liberty of person.


Luxury

If you mean right to property, right on


Thought

Natural Condition of mankind, doesn't really count. The Vuhifellian States pointed out why:

For instance, freedom of thought, in a sense, can be controlled, not in the sci-fi method of literally controlling someone's mind, but brainwashing them through nationalistic propoganda and only hearing one side of view. If your government denies you more than one side of a story, they are effectively denying you freedom of information and freedom of thought.

What he's pointing to is the necessity of free speech

So, what are the core freedoms the original post has listed:

Freedom of Speech
Freedom of assembly
Liberty of person (peripherally mentioned)
Property rights (again, peripherally mentioned)

Ranking them is patently idiotic, each right is essential to the others.

There are rights that have been missed, these include:

The right to due process and equal treatment before the law.
The right to keep and bear arms
The right to life

I picked expression, because the government can't stop me from thinking what I want. Though freedom of information might be necessary to keep that up, so I guess my mind isn't quite made up on that.

Well, that and his post was made at 2AM my time when I was asleep. However, I will respond now. I'm Scottish, and at the moment out parliament is seeking civil unions for gays (like myself). This is more than I can say for America, which is attempting to legislate sexuality in its constitution, and enroach creationism etc. into what should be a secular education - it being a nation which preaches "seperation of church and state." The fact that you can buy a gun in America has not stopped the people in the White House from taking away your freedoms to a secular education and equal rights for everyone, including gays.
I think you need to look at what hurdles legislation that has been _introduced_ into Congress must clear before it becomes _enacted_. There are quite a few. Since you mentioned the Constitutional amendment about homosexual marriage, look up what it takes for an amendment to become part of the Constitution. Just because it's big news doesn't mean it's likely to become law.

As far as the secular vs theocratic argument goes, it's nonsense. We bend over backwards to eliminate any trace of the Christian faith from our governmental facilities. There are always cases where Ten Commandments are found to be in violation of a Constitutional amendment that is only supposed to provide freedom _of_ religion, not freedom _from_ religion. Plenty of other cases, too, where schools have been prevented from having a prayer before a graduation, an assembly, or a football game. Again, don't believe that just because it's big news, there is enactable legislation around the corner.

We're pretty tolerant of homosexuals in the U.S. Why we haven't stoned a single one here in Georgia this year. Don't know about some of those Muslim states, though. More seriously, we _have_ granted them rights that exceed those of non-homosexuals through the enactment of "hate-crime" legislation. That's where I get extra years tacked on to my sentence if I am found guilty of beating a homosexual --- but only if I'm found to "hate" him while committing the crime.

Got to go make money. See you.

They're all very important, and it's tough to pick just one. But I think that freedom of religion is the most important, because if you don't have that, then you'll end up in a theocracy. And once that happens, all the rest of your freedoms will disappear as well.

Let's condense the list to core freedom's:

Speech
Press
Information
Expression
Religion
Petition

All the same: Free Speech
These are not all freedom of speech. Freedom of information is the freedom to investigate, to obtain data from which to form ideas etc. It is strongly connected to freedom of speech in most cases, bu t it also includes things like disclosure acts. Freedom of speech includes the freedom not to speak in some cases, where the freedom of information removes this option. They can be opposed. The other four are admittedly specific forms of the freedom of expression (the most basic rather than speech which is just a form of expression)


Assembly
Religion [sic, listing twice covers both the message of the faith (speech) and act of going of church/synagogue/mosque/temple/etc (assembly))

All the same: freedom of assembly (without freedom of assembly, there can be no freedom of religion
Freedom of assembly is the freedom to form groups to do anything. It does impinge on most religious activities only because they are done in groups. It is not just religious activity however, that people get together in groups for. The most important form of freedom of assembly for a society is the freedom to form political opposition to the state.


Choice

A tadge nebulous, unless you mean liberty of person.
Very very clear, and too often forgotten about. It means the freedom to act as you desire to act. It is all very well being free to complain, free to form a protest group, free to pray about it etc. If you are not free to act. ie. if your every movement and action is monitored and defined, you are under orders which you have to obey on pain of death or imprisonment, then you are not free in any sense at all. Additionally there has to be choices available for freedom to make any sense. I am free to chose my education, but if there is only one school and only one teacher in that school and I am required to attentd school, I am not free am I. Think of the elections in the USSR. You were free to vote, but not free to choose.


Luxury

If you mean right to property, right on
I think this one is a little strange too.


Thought

Natural Condition of mankind, doesn't really count. The Vuhifellian States pointed out why:
Agreed.

Conclusion

Freedom of Choice is the most important freedom to be explicitly granted. Freedom of expression is a subset of this, as is freedom of assembly. You chose what to say, you choose who to meet.



What he's pointing to is the necessity of free speech

So, what are the core freedoms the original post has listed:

Freedom of Speech
Freedom of assembly
Liberty of person (peripherally mentioned)
Property rights (again, peripherally mentioned)

Ranking them is patently idiotic, each right is essential to the others.

There are rights that have been missed, these include:

The right to due process and equal treatment before the law.
The right to keep and bear arms
The right to life[/QUOTE]

Freedom of thought has to be the most important right. Think 1984. Once an individual looses free inquiry, he is no longer truly human.

These are not all freedom of speech. Freedom of information is the freedom to investigate, to obtain data from which to form ideas etc. It is strongly connected to freedom of speech in most cases, bu t it also includes things like disclosure acts. Freedom of speech includes the freedom not to speak in some cases, where the freedom of information removes this option. They can be opposed. The other four are admittedly specific forms of the freedom of expression (the most basic rather than speech which is just a form of expression)

Agreed for freedom of information.

The terms free speech, and free expression are interchangeable, provided one can get out of the mindset that free speech refers to the physical act of speaking.

Very very clear, and too often forgotten about. It means the freedom to act as you desire to act. It is all very well being free to complain, free to form a protest group, free to pray about it etc. If you are not free to act. ie. if your every movement and action is monitored and defined, you are under orders which you have to obey on pain of death or imprisonment, then you are not free in any sense at all. Additionally there has to be choices available for freedom to make any sense. I am free to chose my education, but if there is only one school and only one teacher in that school and I am required to attend school, I am not free am I. Think of the elections in the USSR. You were free to vote, but not free to choose.

In that case, freedom of choice is a banner under which all other freedoms exist.

I'd say the freedom and possibility to inform, be informed and investigate. How can one know that rights are being infringed if one does not know which rights exist, or that those things are happening ? How can one form a decent opinion without any basis in fact ?

Arguably blissfull ignorance is better than knowing you're being oppressed and not able to do anything about it - but without the knowledge you wouldn't do anything either.

I do not think any one of these freedoms can be rated above any other. I do agree the poll is pretty messed up, and it would have been useful if there'd been some sort of explanation for the particular freedoms in the initial post... But somehow it's completely besides the point.

I disagree the right to bear arms and own property are essential freedoms. Both are the right to personal property (unless you're talking about stolen weapons I suppose), but why is the right to personal property important?
In my experience it's not important at all. Actually, I'll go as far as to say many of the problems of the world stem from individuals owning things others rely on to survive. Surely owning things is nice, but owning the right to watersupplies, energy and sowseed is hardly essential. It's only real use is to demand services from people who need to use what you own - or to withhold it from people you dislike.
Similar things can be said about the right to own intellectual property. Something essentially opposed to freedom of information.

The right to bear arms is counterproductive. You seem to veiw this as a way to ensure your ability to dismantle an undesirable society. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the only thing your weapons will guarantee you is your own death. Unless you form the worlds biggest army, with a budget bigger than that of the US, you can kiss the Armed Opposition idea bye-bye. You're still a bunch of peasants with pitchforks against a welloiled killingmachine with tanks, fighter jets and atombombs.
Add to that, armed opposition is rarely the way to go. In most cases, a forign army will support your oppressors, and do so mercilessly. It's not a fight you can win. True revolution is one of ideas and mentality. One offering a better alternative. If you have that, arms will be found as you need them. If you don't, no amount of arms will help you.

That said, I think it's laughable to call USA a free country, or just a democratic country. You have a 2 party system, one where 3rd parties cannot run, even if it, strictly speaking, isn't outlawed.
All of your media is corporate owned. Your media is deeply dependent on corporate interests. The same corporate interests who sponsor the long line of unethical, massmurdering lunatics you elect for president.
Any attempt of having free media need to include major media payed by your taxes, but protected by law from government interferrance, as well as private media. If you don't have both, you cannot have free media.
Free media is what guarantees your freedom of information. Without it, it becomes freedom of indoctrination.

Sorry about the lenght of this, I'll stop now... But this is a MAJOR subject.

Once again, you guys are still choosing which freedom you prefer, so obviously choice is the most important, because without that, you couldn't even pick one of the others.

Once again, you guys are still choosing which freedom you prefer, so obviously choice is the most important, because without that, you couldn't even pick one of the others.

Sure we could - we would just risk being prosecuted for making a choice.
And if we didn't know what choices there were there would be nothing to choose ;) There is a reason Orwell invented "newspeak" ;)

Where is the right to vote in fair, open, and free elections?

Sure we could - we would just risk being prosecuted for making a choice.

Touché. ;)

And if we didn't know what choices there were there would be nothing to choose ;) There is a reason Orwell invented "newspeak" ;)

Ahhh, but instead the author chose to give you many choices. ;)

Where is the right to vote in fair, open, and free elections?

Where is that a right? Ar... ar... ar... :D

I think freedom of choise implies all the other freedoms, no?

I would vote, but I don't see an option for Bear Arms, or Myrth

Where is that a right? Ar... ar... ar... :D

not in my country either

Freedom of Choice.

You must be allowed to personally Choose to exercise, or not exercise, all the other Rights.

There's no such thing as a "freedom of thought", and a few of those others are odd but I suppose could apply in oppressive governments. A "freedom" is guaranteed by a govenment to its people. There is no way a government *could* inhibit thought even if it wanted to.

What about freedom from exploitation? :confused:

The right to arm yourself is the right which guarantees all of the others...
Nonsense!

A freedom can be guaranteed by promise as surely as it can by a weapon.

I put choice, since being able to choose is the most general form of freedom, and thus covers all other freedoms.

I put choice, since being able to choose is the most general form of freedom, and thus covers all other freedoms.

Can you 'choose' to be rich or poor?

Can you 'choose' to be rich or poor?

I certainly could but I don't see what that's got to do with anything.

I certainly could but I don't see what that's got to do with anything.

It's a criticism of the 'freedom to choose'. You only have 'freedom to choose' a minority of things. Therefore, it's not all that great...

It's a criticism of the 'freedom to choose'. You only have 'freedom to choose' a minority of things. Therefore, it's not all that great...

I think you are missing the point - if you can't choose whether to do something, it's not freedom, it's enforced.

It's a criticism of the 'freedom to choose'. You only have 'freedom to choose' a minority of things. Therefore, it's not all that great...

Because I can't choose to be able to fly by flapping my arms I should not care about being able to choose what colour t-shirt I wear. Is that your argument?

Once again, you guys are still choosing which freedom you prefer, so obviously choice is the most important, because without that, you couldn't even pick one of the others.
We're not talking about the ability to choose. A freedom is a guarantee between a government and its people.

I said the freedom of the press.

Sometimes I think the press is the only thing that keeps government officials from trying to do every single crazy thing that comes to mind.

Without a free and independent press, we'd have no way of knowing when the government was trying to screw us over.

Granted, the press hasn't been doing the best job of that lately, but they do get it right some of the time...and it's a hell of a lot better than State-run media outlets.
Ditto.

free press and everything else is nice, but if you don't have the freedom to say 2 + 2 = 4, there is no point left for society.

All of these are extremely important freedoms but you must not forget the right to be free from poverty and exploitation and the right to housing, employment, healthcare, education and social security.

All of these are extremely important freedoms but you must not forget the right to be free from poverty and exploitation and the right to housing, employment, healthcare, education and social security.
This is kind of funny. Did you manage to get this out without being overcome with laughter?

This reminds me, though, of a Canadian Supreme Court ruling against some kind of mandatory participation in the travesty they call health care. The Canadian court mentioned several cases where patients died waiting for care. I'll dig it up and post it in another thread.

This is a toughy.

There's really no way we can control thoughts, so even if we weren't allowed to think whatever we want, it'd be impossible to enforce such a violation of liberties.

But I'm forced to conclude that if you can not make your own decisions, you are not really free. Who gives a damn if you can say and believe what you want if you can't act on your beliefs?

Of course, I also believe in moderation of that right--just because you believe in murdering everyone you see shouldn't be a cause to do that.

This is a toughy.

There's really no way we can control thoughts, so even if we weren't allowed to think whatever we want, it'd be impossible to enforce such a violation of liberties.

In fact, there is a way to control thought. A rather difficult way that requires much effort, but there is a way nonetheless. Read 1984, it'll all makes sense then. It isn't in a sense of the ThoughtPolice as it is a loss of all rational thinking, like accepting 2+2=5 and Doublethink - accepting to conflicting beliefs, such as thinking Prohibition is stupid yet thinking the War on Drugs is good - and other such Newspeak.

I voted choice, choice encompasses everything else...

Rubbish! If that were the case, all nations without the USAs love of weapons would be fascist dictatorships.

Eventually, any government can take away all your freedoms AND enforce it. For instance it does seem like it is happening with the US. This is mostly due to voter apathy and uninformed decision making on the GENERAL populac's part. Once the government becomes victim to a swing of fascism of a rulling party, then yes in the long term they CAN become fascist. The difficulty in ruling a fascist government will be made worse when the populace is armed, loves the fact they CAN be armed at their own will, and is very willing to protect what they own and what they feel are their rights.

So America can be conservative and ruled by fascist neo-cons now, but only untill they piss off enough people that people are willing to shoot at government officals over and plan out an organized underground rebellion that has the support of the consensus population.

Its true not all governments are fascist, but the possibility of fascist governments ruling over non-US governments IS there. Mexico for instance suffers from corruption, greed, and swindling the poor, and having a HORRIBLE economy creating economic refugess. Mexico also has BANNED guns and has a legitimate rebellion within their boarders.

Do you think the situation would be different if it allowed guns? People willing to risk their lives to cross the desert boarder would likely risk shooting more problematic legislators.

The right of the citizens to bear arms gives people an insurance to keep their rights. What the US lacks is voter enthusiasm, information, and idealisms that were present at our founding.

What do you guys think is the most important freedom in maintaining a free society.

Poll to come

Freedom to bear arms, because no government can deny the people the right to speak, if the people are armed to the teeth.