NationStates Jolt Archive

Many people say when you don't support your government in this war, especialy to Americans your unpatriotic. I find this to be untrue. To be patriotic means you support the country in your views in what you believe whats best for it.

Let me give you a crappy metaphor. Say if your a parent and your kid goes out and smokes weed or drinks which you firmly told him not to. Of course you disagree and speak out against what he did. You will punish him for his actions. But, that doesn't mean you don't love him. It means you care for him and want whats best for him in your eyes.

Why do I bring this up, I was reading a little on John Adams's alien and sediton Acts he passed, Wilson's 1917 sedition acts, and the Patriot Act. This whole patriotic theme, must support your country in their actions especially in war. I find it untrue. Patriotism is what you believe is best for your country, because you care about it.

American society has forced me to loathe what America has become, but your statement is true.


The Enlightened One, Gir

gee i hope not......

No, you don't have to.

Of course not, not if your government does things that go against the very nature of what your country has always stood for.

id say that its OK to seperate the current adiministration (no matter what administration it is) from "your country" or "your government".

they abuse your patriotism when they insist that you must actively approve anything they decide to do. there are unjust wars, there are unjust laws, there are unjust actions.

a true patriot disagrees with his country when his country is wrong.

American society has forced me to loathe what America has become, but your statement is true.

The Enlightened One, Gir
You don't sound very "enlightened" to me. What's to loathe about America? Of course we have our share of problems, but that comes with the sheer size of the Country and the disproportionate impact we have in the world. But "loathe?" Isn't that a bit strong? :(

It would be unpatriotic to support a government that knowingly, deliberately and systematically started destroying that country for whatever reason. As you brought up Americans, I will use America as any example. If the President suddenly decided it would be fun to urinate on the original Constitution, to rip down statues of the Founding Fathers, to rewrite America's history, to deliberately put millions of people out of jobs... I would think that supporting him simply because he is President would be the most unpatriotic thing you could do.

Patriotism in a free society isn't the same as patriotism in a monarchy or a dictatorship. You don't have to swear allegiance to the king/queen/evil overlord of doom to be patriotic. In a free society, patriotism involves doing what you think is right for your country. If an uber extreme leader as suggested above were to start stomping on everything your country stood for, and seriously weakening it in a practical sense, the patriotic thing to do would be to remove that person from power as soon as possible to prevent further damage.

I think patriotism also requires a national identity. Something that your country as a whole stands for. An ideal that defines your country. Governments come and go, but your country must have something which survives forever. I know for a fact that there are very strong patriotic movements in the US and the UK. The US are all about freedom and power. The UK bases a lot of its patriotism on historical achievements, and the remnants of the monarchy - not to mention their currency, which is an interesting one. I'm not sure about the rest of Europe, however. I'm sure each country has something, though I'm not sure how prevalent patriotism is in some of those countries. I know Sweden has some degree of patriotic people in it, though.

Patriotism is support of the idea. Politicians come and go, but the system stays. It is also hatred for those who try to abuse the system and overstep their bounds.

I'd like to know who voted yes, so I can put them on my ignore list...
or pretend to, the hunt them down and rip holes into every argument the post in threads (as we'd usually be on opposing sides anyways.)

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"
-Thomas Jefferson

http://homepage.mac.com/leperous/.Pictures/silence.jpg

:p

Seriously, I think throughout history, people have got patriotism and obedience mixed up, which is why I tend to mistrust the whole concept.

Of course you do in fact that is why Im a flip-flopper because I undoubtedly support whoevers in office. Which is why I vote both Democrat and Republican simulataneously under my two IDs.

lol i was the only one who said "no but u should"

Sice we're making the distinction between your country and the people who are governing it at the moment, why shouldn't you support it at all times? But to respond to the matter at hand, when the nation is at war, it's your duty to support the gov. Your fellow-citizens may die because of your actions if you undermine the government at such a critical time.

Saipea: you're welcome to look me up anytime, anywhere.

Patriotism=love of country, not love of the current government

http://homepage.mac.com/leperous/.Pictures/silence.jpg

:p

Seriously, I think throughout history, people have got patriotism and obedience mixed up, which is why I tend to mistrust the whole concept.
That image is weird. Since when has Homeland Security told you that you can't ask questions? Seriously. I really would like to know.

You have to have good will toward your countrymen to be patriotic.. which would allow criticizm of the government, but not hatred for the people or the will of the people.

I'd like to know who voted yes, so I can put them on my ignore list...
or pretend to, the hunt them down and rip holes into every argument the post in threads (as we'd usually be on opposing sides anyways.)
You atheists are so loving. :)

You have to have good will toward your countrymen to be patriotic.. which would allow criticizm of the government, but not hatred for the people or the will of the people.
Wow! That almost makes me want to change my vote to "yes!" Almost, that is. :D

Most self-proclaimed "patriots" in Britain hate Tony Blair's government, nostalgics who look back to the times of Margaret Thatcher and John Major when of course politicians never lied, when child molesters and thugs didn't exist, when three million unemployed people picked their money from the local orchard rather than rely on subsistence benefits, when there was no such thing as an immigrant, when secularism was just this thing that frogs and krauts talked about, when the government would never do anything without a referendum and when every Briton that died went to heaven.

I voted yes.

Government is an extension of society and if you wish to support your society, you must support your government. People confuse the government with the members of government and for that reason decide not to support the government.

Disrespecting the members of government or the results of a democratic process disrespects the government and the democratic process.

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it."
- Mark Twain

Being a patriot means placing your country and its ideals above all else, including any single individuals within it. And yes, that includes politicians. Remember that politicians serve the people and government, and not the other way around. We choose politicians based on those who who feel best embody our own vision of what our nation should be. Of course, if that's not the case, then we make provisions to remove those politicians. As the old joke goes, politicians are like diapers: they should be changed frequently, and for the same reason.

Sice we're making the distinction between your country and the people who are governing it at the moment, why shouldn't you support it at all times? But to respond to the matter at hand, when the nation is at war, it's your duty to support the gov. Your fellow-citizens may die because of your actions if you undermine the government at such a critical time.

Saipea: you're welcome to look me up anytime, anywhere.

My apologies. I simply thought the logic was sort of obvious. To dogmatically support your government? Even in times of war? That's what the Germans did in the 1940s. If you don't question authority, you lose.

Patriotism is about the country and the institutions idealized by whatever the country was founded upon. Not the individuals instilled, often times by a democratic form of voting, which always leaves a portion of people upset.

I hate when U.S. citizens bitch about how awful America is. Why don't you just fucking move to Canada, if you hate it so much here? It's the same place, with a shittier economy, shittier military, national healthcare and legalized pot.

That said, no, I don't think you have to necessarily support your government to be patriotic, as sometimes it is necessary to disagree with something the government is doing or trying to do.

I hate when U.S. citizens bitch about how awful America is. Why don't you just fucking move to Canada, if you hate it so much here? It's the same place, with a shittier economy, shittier military, national healthcare and legalized pot.

That said, no, I don't think you have to necessarily support your government to be patriotic, as sometimes it is necessary to disagree with something the government is doing or trying to do.
And leave only people who think like you do? I couldn't do that to my own country. And I'm as tired of conservatives telling us to move to Canada or France as you're tired of hearing us "bitch about how awful America is."

Remember:
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."--Thomas Jefferson, don't argue with the nickel.

Remember:
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."--Thomas Jefferson, don't argue with the nickel.

Yeah, well, Thomas Jefferson was a hypocrite and an asshole, even if he could write well.

Yeah, well, Thomas Jefferson was a hypocrite and an asshole, even if he could write well.
Yeah, well, well, well, well, Bush is stoopid. And were you alive to know that TJ was an asshole? Or are you just making blind generalizations without any substantial evidence?

Yeah, well, Thomas Jefferson was a hypocrite and an asshole, even if he could write well.

Troll much?

Yeah, well, well, well, well, Bush is stoopid. And were you alive to know that TJ was an asshole? Or are you just making blind generalizations without any substantial evidence?

LOL, you have to have been alive when someone was to know they were an asshole? Well, in that case I guess I can't say Hitler was an asshole, either.

Besides, when did I make any generalizations, let alone blind ones?

I believe I'll let my sig speak for me on this one. ;)

LOL, you have to have been alive when someone was to know they were an asshole? Well, in that case I guess I can't say Hitler was an asshole, either.

Besides, when did I make any generalizations, let alone blind ones?
well, traditionally, you get to know the guy and then determine if he's an asshole or not. You can't just say someone's an asshole just by looking at them. Who knows? Maybe Hitler was relatively nice to people he knew. He did get married, but it probably didn't mean anything.

I'm not gonna go digging through your posts to find your generalizations. I'm pretty sure they're out there, like you calling my homie, TJ an asshole for no apparent reason.

Benjamin Franklin about the constitution:
"This is likely to be administered for a course of years and then end in despotism ... when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other?"

Thomas Jefferson:
"Whosoever shall be guilty of rape, polygamy, or sodomy with a man or woman, shall be punished; if a man, by castration, a woman, by boring through the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half inch in diameter at the least?"

Source: http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/iconochasms.php
The good old political compass site.

Hehehehehehehe! How true.

I see patriotism as love/support for your nation, not neccessarily the government. As said by others, if you think your government is acting against the best interests of your country, then you have a duty to dissent.

To be patriotic means you support the country in your views in what you believe whats best for it.

Not entirely agreed. When your government is democratically elected but not the one you wanted it is still your countries government - even though you personally do not agree with its ideals. Saying "I am all for the democratic process, as long as everyone else votes the same as I do" is of course not really supporting the idea behind it ;)

To be a patriot you should listen to the government and do what it says no matter if you personally agree with it or not - unless what it says violates the laws of your country. You should most definately be allowed to voice your disagreement though.

LOL, you have to have been alive when someone was to know they were an asshole? Well, in that case I guess I can't say Hitler was an asshole, either.
I invoke Godwin's Law!

well, traditionally, you get to know the guy and then determine if he's an asshole or not. You can't just say someone's an asshole just by looking at them. Who knows? Maybe Hitler was relatively nice to people he knew. He did get married, but it probably didn't mean anything.

I'm not gonna go digging through your posts to find your generalizations. I'm pretty sure they're out there, like you calling my homie, TJ an asshole for no apparent reason.

I never call anyone an asshole unless the reason is very apparent - or I'm just kidding. So I know that statement is bullshit. I'm sure he said something during the argument that turned him into an asshole.

Also, 99% of my generalizations are jokes. :)

I hear Hitler was actually a rather charming man socially. A horrible set of views but a nice man.

Personally I feel that if you do not criticiz ethe government (mandate theory be damned, humans aren't prophets) then you are acting to the detriment of your country.

Of course blanket criticism (FLIP-FLOP!! or comments on IQ for example) is worse.

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." -Thomas Paine.

S'all I have to say.

Hmm. Godwin's law has been invoked, so maybe no one will read this. but:

In response to the original question--Absolutely not--governments always do whatever will keep them in power; if you support your government without question, you give them free reign to do whatever they want, no matter how stupid or evil. (and they'll always argue that they're doing the right thing even when they're not).

I'm glad this thread was started, because it's been on my mind lately. In my country, there's a lot of anti-American sentiment--and it's not because people don't like Americans. The American people are great--but the American government (& economic system) is FREAKY... Yet, I know that there's many Americans who see the people and the nation as one in the same, and get very angry when that nation is criticised.

This is understandable I guess... but strange to me. Where I come from, people always attack the government, and politics and nationalism are widely distrusted; because power is so easily abused.

No-one who truly cares about their country should blindly follow their government.