NationStates Jolt Archive

They trained in Pakistani Al Quaeda camps. They were asked where they'd like to carry out missions. They chose the USA. Wrong choice a**holes. We got you now!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050608/ap_on_re_us/terror_arrests

Hey, that's not fair. They're going to get an attractive naked woman to dance for them... and they're going to get high on fantastic drugs....

Hey, that's not fair. They're going to get an attractive naked woman to dance for them... and they're going to get high on fantastic drugs....
And hopefully they'll get a koran shoved up their you-know-what sideways.

I can see that a fair number of people on this forum are going to have sympathy pains for these two. They're going to say that these two are innocents, and would never have harmed anyone - or they'll say that they deserve to be released because the US is evil, yadda yadda.

Well, they knew the job was dangerous when they took it.

I can see that a fair number of people on this forum are going to have sympathy pains for these two. They're going to say that these two are innocents, and would never have harmed anyone - or they'll say that they deserve to be released because the US is evil, yadda yadda.
Um, no... we're just going to let you two troll for a while, until you get it out of your systems.

Um, no... we're just going to let you two troll for a while, until you get it out of your systems.
Celebrating a victory over vermin who had planned to kill hundreds or perhaps thousands of my people isn't trolling.

And hopefully they'll get a koran shoved up their you-know-what sideways.

hey the holy muslim book doesnt go there........its too good for them. those people are not muslims, because it clearly states in the holy muslim book that killing innocent people is very wrong, and its a 1st class ticket to hell.

i hope they rot in the dirty camps

ps im muslim and them Bas*ards dont deserve to be called that

Um, no... we're just going to let you two troll for a while, until you get it out of your systems.

Hopefully you're not one of those people who think those two apes were planning to do something good for humanity.

I didn't see it said they're going to Guantanamo. Then again, they're not "illegal combatants". They'll probably have to do jail time for links to terrorism and maybe organized crime and stuff like that.

hey the holy muslim book doesnt go there........its too good for them. those people are not muslims, because it clearly states in the holy muslim book that killing innocent people is very wrong, and its a 1st class ticket to hell.

i hope they rot in the dirty camps

ps im muslim and them Bas*ards dont deserve to be called that
Allright, out of respect for the good Muslims in the world we'll substitute videotaped copies of Osama bin Laden's speeches. On VHS. Each on a separate tape, but no lube.

I didn't see it said they're going to Guantanamo. Then again, they're not "illegal combatants". They'll probably have to do jail time for links to terrorism and maybe organized crime and stuff like that.
Too bad. On the bright side, they might meet some nice HIV infected boyfriends behind bars.

I think they need to change the laws concerning Title 18, Part I, Chapter 113B, Section 2339B.

They need to change the sentence to mandatory death penalty in all cases.

Hopefully you're not one of those people who think those two apes were planning to do something good for humanity.
Again, trolling.

*Happily watches her straw arms wave in the wind.*

Again, trolling.

*Happily watches her straw arms wave in the wind.*
Come on, that's neither a straw man nor an example of trolling.

He said "hopefully you're not...". He didn't say "You must be one of those al quaeda loving freaks".

*Sways her straw arms to the tune of 'I'd Like To Teach The World To Sing'*

;)

Alright, not trolling. But his use of a negative only implied its opposite.

The two men arrested aren't made of straw. They are quite real.

I bet they're wishing they weren't so stupid now.

The two men arrested aren't made of straw. They are quite real.

I bet they're wishing they weren't so stupid now.
I'd bet they're blaming the US government. Complaining that they were profiled, or that they were acting on behalf of a just cause against an evil nation. I don't think their kind has the character to admit they screwed up.

I take it these two haven't been tried? And… since when was arrest proof of crime? What is wrong with trial, may I ask?

I take it these two haven't been tried? And… since when was arrest proof of crime? What is wrong with trial, may I ask?
They'll get their trial right before they're placed in a cell with an HIV positive homosexual rapist/killer.

I take it these two haven't been tried? And… since when was arrest proof of crime? What is wrong with trial, may I ask?

Care to place a bet? The FBI appears to have a lot of evidence.

If the evidence is admissible, these guys are as good as dead.

They trained in Pakistani Al Quaeda camps. They were asked where they'd like to carry out missions. They chose the USA. Wrong choice a**holes. We got you now!

By 'they' do you mean 'one of the two', or are you intentionally misrepresenting the article?

By 'they' do you mean 'one of the two', or are you intentionally misrepresenting the article?
Ok, one of the two went to pakistan to train, but two men have been charged. That's what I was getting at.

By 'they' do you mean 'one of the two', or are you intentionally misrepresenting the article?
Hey! Good idea... we could pedantize this thread to death. ;)

Hey! Good idea... we could pedantize this thread to death. ;)

Hey, if people are going to hold kangaroo courts over the internet, they could at least pay attention to what they're typing. Is that too much to ask?

Care to place a bet? The FBI appears to have a lot of evidence.

If the evidence is admissible, these guys are as good as dead. Oh, good. So if there's so much evidence, they can be given a trial.

Hey, if people are going to hold kangaroo courts over the internet, they could at least pay attention to what they're typing. Is that too much to ask?
Well, if it's a kangaroo court, the details don't really matter.

Hey, if people are going to hold kangaroo courts over the internet, they could at least pay attention to what they're typing. Is that too much to ask?
Is it too much to ask to have everyone agree that a kangaroo court by definition has no evidence against the accused, and that in this case, the government appears to have evidence?

Check the batting average of the FBI so far on this sort of thing. It's not zero.

I'd bet they're blaming the US government. Complaining that they were profiled, or that they were acting on behalf of a just cause against an evil nation. I don't think their kind has the character to admit they screwed up.

Nope, they both copped to it and wore a wire to go get two more. Total number is now 4.

Liverbreath']Nope, they both copped to it and wore a wire to go get two more. Total number is now 4.

If they've copped to it, they're fried unless they made some sort of deal. The ones caught talking are fried depending on what they said.

Certain expressions can get you 15 years now.

If they've copped to it, they're fried unless they made some sort of deal. The ones caught talking are fried depending on what they said.

Certain expressions can get you 15 years now.

Say what you want about the FBI, but, they are very good at offering deals that result in exponential returns. They are getting so good they will need seperate facilities just for the snitches. 8)

Liverbreath']Say what you want about the FBI, but, they are very good at offering deals that result in exponential returns. They are getting so good they will need seperate facilities just for the snitches. 8)

What's interesting is who the FBI is targeting.
If I was a recent convert to Islam (and not originally an Arab) and was a US Citizen, I would be reticent to talk to anyone about anything involving Middle Eastern politics.

Say the wrong thing, and they'll have a tape that will send you up the river.

They're going to say that these two are innocents.they are innocent.

anyone slightly in touch with US laws knows that...but I guess you are illiterate about US laws...get yourself "Law for dummies" yellow book to teach you the basics... ;)

like this...try walmart
http://www.computeroutpost.com.au/~mtn/9/1568848609.jpg

Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't believe torture and humiliation are a good thing.

Is it too much to ask to have everyone agree that a kangaroo court by definition has no evidence against the accused, and that in this case, the government appears to have evidence?

I'm all for these people standing proper trial: however, the predetermined assumptions that they are guilty and deserve 'beatings and degradation' are what spurred me to use the term.

If I was a recent convert to Islam (and not originally an Arab) and was a US Citizen, I would be reticent to talk to anyone about anything involving Middle Eastern politics.

Say the wrong thing, and they'll have a tape that will send you up the river.

Land of the Free, Home of the Brave. :rolleyes:

they are innocent.

anyone slightly in touch with US laws know that...but I guess you are illiterate about US laws...get yourself "Law for dummies" yellow book to teach you the basics... ;)
The court and the jury must consider them innocent until proven guilty, but I'm under no such obligation. They're guilty. Throw them in with Bubba the gay rapist.

Land of the Free, Home of the Brave. :rolleyes:
No, our President is out to kick the ass of people who want to harm US citizens, and that's why he got re-elected.

As long as you're rooting for the home team, you can sit in the stadium.

They're guilty. they are not, one day they migth be...but untill then you are kicking air...

read the yellow book...just do it

The court and the jury must consider them innocent until proven guilty, but I'm under no such obligation.

Doesn't the US have a principle of sub iudice or did they ditch that as well?

they are not, one day they migth be...but untill then you are kicking air...

read the yellow book...just do it
I've read the yellow book. I don't see what it has to do with this situation, but I did find someone to fix my air conditioner.

Land of the Free, Home of the Brave. :rolleyes:

You know what? I agree with you on this.

Its just scary...reading these sadistic posts gives me the chills. And the thought that 3 wrong words in a telephone conversation could get anyone I know sent to a secret prison.

Its not right dammit. We're better than this.

Doesn't the US have a principle of sub iudice or did they ditch that as well?
I don't know what sub iudice means. All I know is that the court and jury must consider every suspect innocent until proven guilty. This ensures a fair trial and helps keep innocent people out of prison.

In addition to that I'm allowed my own opinion, and my opinion is that these "people" are guilty and should face hard time among rapists and murderers.

I don't know what sub iudice means.


Pulling a quick definition off the net: Of judicial proceedings, not yet decided by a court of law or judge. As long as a matter is sub judice all discussion is prohibited elsewhere.

I don't know how the principle works in the US.

they are not, one day they migth be...but untill then you are kicking air...

read the yellow book...just do it

Didn't take long to convict the idiots in Lackawanna, did it?

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! :)

In addition to that I'm allowed my own opinion, and my opinion is that these "people" are guilty and should face hard time among rapists and murderers. Why do you think they are guilty?

I've read the yellow book. I don't see what it has to do with this situation, but I did find someone to fix my air conditioner.
i see..hmmm

Ok you got the wrong dummies book
...i know...i know they are look the same and they are all yellow...and so tuff, etc

well ..now you need 2 books

book 1) how to pick the rigth book...(this book should be fluresent yellow...with sound chips)

book 2) basic US criminal law...with color pictures...and big-O nice letters

keep the bill...just in case you pick the wrong books again.

Why do you think they are guilty?
If the FBI has a tape of you saying something incriminating, and then you cop to it, you're either completely stupid, or guilty.

If the FBI has a tape of you saying something incriminating, and then you cop to it, you're either completely stupid, or guilty.Maybe they should get the FBI in charge of Guantanamo...

their torturers...oups...I mean "interrogation specialists" are sure getting the desired results.

the FBI is sure to waste less off my income tax money.

Mistreatment of Prisoners (even guilty ones) is bad for discipline. I hope all the fuss about GitMo has reinforced this In other words, I'm finding myself with the naysayers on this-you don't beat Prisoners unless they riot, it's simply un-professional.

That said, if these mooks are found guilty, I certainly echo the hope that they share a 6'x9' concrete room with a tatooed racist weigtlifter who hasn't seen a woman in fifteen years and needs something to dip his wick.
That being only because even in Prison, Assault is a felony, and it will prevent the early release of a violent scumbag.

But...

Only if they are found Guilty in a Court of Law under Normal Rules of Evidence.

Anything less, is bad for discipline.

Why do you think they are guilty?
The admission by one of them that he attended an al Quaeda training camp and requested a mission in the USA is plenty of proof for me. They'll get their day in court, but I'm entiled to my own opinions.

Maybe they should get the FBI in charge of Guantanamo...

their torturers...oups...I mean "interrogation specialists" are sure getting the desired results.

at least the FBI is not wasting their time...AND not wasting my income tax money.

FBI lacks jurisdiction. It would be nice, though-they manage to get confessions without much coercion at all... It might be more long-term efficient to just put FBI in charge of the training for the guys trying to run interrogations at GitMo.

Maybe they should get the FBI in charge of Guantanamo...

their torturers...oups...I mean "interrogation specialists" are sure getting the desired results.

at least the FBI is not wasting their time...AND not wasting my income tax money.

Think about what you just said.

Now think - only a few people have been released from Guantanamo. But, as a result of the military interrogations, hundreds more al-Qaeda members have been assassinated or captured, including the #3 man, Sheik Khalid Mohammed, who is now in Gitmo, and has given up even more people.

Still think the military interrogators at Gitmo are not getting results? I think they are.

FBI managed to get confessions without much coercion at all...how would you know that?

It is actions like this by the FBI that convince me that they'll be nailing people like our recent poster from Houston, TX - just because they were talking to the wrong Moslem.

That said, if these mooks are found guilty, I certainly echo the hope that they share a 6'x9' concrete room with a tatooed racist weigtlifter who hasn't seen a woman in fifteen years and needs something to dip his wick.
That being only because even in Prison, Assault is a felony, and it will prevent the early release of a violent scumbag.

Am I misunderstanding you here, or are you suggesting that rape is a form of justice?

...including the #3 man, Sheik Khalid Mohammed....Bush and the Pentagon say he is the #3 man...and some unestablished independent media say that Bush and the Pentagon are FULLofSHIT...

these days...unfortunately...Bush and the Pentagon have less credibility that these guys...heck Bush&Co. have less credibility than "Bob from the Accounting dept."

how would you know that?
You're really not up on NLP interrogation techniques, are you?

Poor fella. You don't have to torture people to get them to talk. There are a lot of techniques that you can use to get people to give up information that involve simple NLP techniques. I don't even have to touch you.

Police are starting to use these as well.

And, if you're a hard case, there's always the methamphetamine and Versed.

In that case, everyone, and I mean, everyone, talks. And they don't remember talking, and they don't remember what they said, so they can't cook up a lie between one questioning session and the next.

Am I misunderstanding you here, or are you suggesting that rape is a form of justice?
No, I was the one suggesting that rape (by a violent HIV positive criminal) is a form of justice. I've got an evil streak.

Cadillac-Gage was hoping they'd get into a few fights in prison so that they would stay there longer.

No, I was the one suggesting that rape (by a violent HIV positive criminal) is a form of justice. I've got an evil streak.


You disgust me.

Are these the values that Americans are fighting to protect?

You disgust me.
You'll pardon us for being outraged and disgusted by a group that is willing to fly commercial airliners into civilian targets on purpose.

Or a group that has declared its intention to acquire nuclear weapons and smallpox as soon as possible so they can use them to annihilate us.

And pardon us for being outraged and disgusted by anyone who would support that group, no matter how trivial the support.

I foresee the day when another 9-11 happens - or something worse. And on that day, there will be no need for police, courts, jails, or law. Justice will not be on the menu - only vengeance. And if you think what the US is doing now is unjust, unseemly, unfair, or somehow insane, you will wish yourself off this planet on that day.

You're really not up on NLP interrogation techniques, are you?

Poor fella. You don't have to torture people to get them to talk. There are a lot of techniques that you can use to get people to give up information that involve simple NLP techniques. I don't even have to touch you.

Police are starting to use these as well.

And, if you're a hard case, there's always the methamphetamine and Versed.

In that case, everyone, and I mean, everyone, talks. And they don't remember talking, and they don't remember what they said, so they can't cook up a lie between one questioning session and the next.NLP? somebody quick let them know at Guantamo...

please WL...please anyone...tell the-menstruating-stripping-Interrogation-Specialists that such a magically efficient methods exist...they have already wasted enough money...(while destroying the good name of USA)...I mean why in hell not use that from day one?

They trained in Pakistani Al Quaeda camps. They were asked where they'd like to carry out missions. They chose the USA. Wrong choice a**holes. We got you now!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050608/ap_on_re_us/terror_arrests


While you and WL are running around declaring both men guilty of terrorism, calling them "apes," and suggesting such "justice" as "rape (by a violent HIV positive criminal)," perhaps you should read your own article again.

2 men - father and son.

According to the article, they are both charged only with lying to the FBI.

The son allegedly admitted training in an Al-Qaeda camp. According to the FBI, he admitted requesting to be sent to the United States.

The only thing the FBI even accuses the father of doing is lying to them about his son's attending the training camp.

They are not "apes" -- they are people.

They are innocent until proven guilty. Curious how quickly we like to throw that proposition away when it comes to alleged terrorists.

Despite testimony from dozens of detainees, former soldiers, and independent observers and FBI reports, WL refuses to admit anything wrong has occured at Gitmo. But one news account citing a single FBI affidavit and these two men are no longer members of the human race.

EDIT: Personally, it seems likely these individuals are guilty of lying to the FBI and perhaps more. If they are convicted after a fair trial, they should be punished. At least until then, this drooling bloodlust is un-American, anti-freedom, and disgusting.

You disgust me.

Are these the values that Americans are fighting to protect?
Gee, did I say that they were American values? No, perhaps you're building a straw man.

Also I admitted that it's EVIL. I have a vindictive streak in me. That's why I'm not a judge. I know that rape isn't a justifiable punishment, and I'm proud of my culture for not condoning it as such. I'm just not going to lie and say that I'm a perfect person. I'm not going to pretend that I never have vicious and violent thoughts and emotions. If I hear about a convicted terrorist being brutally raped I'll have no sympathy for him. As for your disgust, it doesn't bother me.

You'll pardon us for being outraged and disgusted by a group that is willing to fly commercial airliners into civilian targets on purpose.

Or a group that has declared its intention to acquire nuclear weapons and smallpox as soon as possible so they can use them to annihilate us.

And pardon us for being outraged and disgusted by anyone who would support that group, no matter how trivial the support.

I never called anyone to task on such feelings.

Question: does the USA still maintain the moral highground in the current conflict?

I foresee the day when another 9-11 happens - or something worse. And on that day, there will be no need for police, courts, jails, or law. Justice will not be on the menu - only vengeance. And if you think what the US is doing now is unjust, unseemly, unfair, or somehow insane, you will wish yourself off this planet on that day.

If the USA decides that its primary motivating force is no longer a search for justice, but instead for vengeance, then it has itself shat on everything it has held dear for so long, and has sunk to the level of those who have attacked it.

So, do you also consider rape and the possibility of HIV infection to be a form of justice?

I know that rape isn't a justifiable punishment, and I'm proud of my culture for not condoning it as such.

...rape (by a violent HIV positive criminal) is a form of justice.

So, something can be a form or justice, but not a justifiable punishment?

NLP? somebody quick let them know at Guantamo...

please WL...please anyone...tell the-menstruating-stripping-Interrogation-Specialists that such a magically efficient methods exist...they have already wasted enough money...(while destroying the good name of USA)...I mean why in hell not use that from day one?

Individual interrogators may have used their own methods, or engaged in their own excesses.

Additionally, a lot of the interrogation methods such as "uncomfortable positions" were invented by the UK during their actions against the IRA. Sometimes those are used as "quick" techniques.

Techniques vary from interrogator to interrogator - it's seen more as an art than science.

While you and WL are running around declaring both men guilty of terrorism, calling them "apes," and suggesting such "justice" as "rape (by a violent HIV positive criminal)," perhaps you should read your own article again.

2 men - father and son.

According to the article, they are both charged only with lying to the FBI.

The son allegedly admitted training in an Al-Qaeda camp. According to the FBI, he admitted requesting to be sent to the United States.

The only thing the FBI even accuses the father of doing is lying to them about his son's attending the training camp.

They are not "apes" -- they are people.

They are innocent until proven guilty. Curious how quickly we like to throw that proposition away when it comes to alleged terrorists.

Despite testimony from dozens of detainees, former soldiers, and independent observers and FBI reports, WL refuses to admit anything wrong has occured at Gitmo. But one news account citing a single FBI affidavit and these two men are no longer members of the human race.
I said vermin, not apes. I like apes.

I agree that they're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Have I called for them to be punished immediately without any chance to defend themselves?

Every person is entitled to his or her opinion. Mine is that they're guilty. If a court finds them not guilty I'll admit I was wrong.

I said vermin, not apes. I like apes.

I agree that they're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Have I called for them to be punished immediately without any chance to defend themselves?

Every person is entitled to his or her opinion. Mine is that they're guilty. If a court finds them not guilty I'll admit I was wrong.

And, as I've pointed out, your opinion is that that are guilty of things of which they aren't even accused. :rolleyes:

While you and WL are running around declaring both men guilty of terrorism, calling them "apes," and suggesting such "justice" as "rape (by a violent HIV positive criminal)," perhaps you should read your own article again.

2 men - father and son.

According to the article, they are both charged only with lying to the FBI.

The son allegedly admitted training in an Al-Qaeda camp. According to the FBI, he admitted requesting to be sent to the United States.

The only thing the FBI even accuses the father of doing is lying to them about his son's attending the training camp.

They are not "apes" -- they are people.

They are innocent until proven guilty. Curious how quickly we like to throw that proposition away when it comes to alleged terrorists.

Despite testimony from dozens of detainees, former soldiers, and independent observers and FBI reports, WL refuses to admit anything wrong has occured at Gitmo. But one news account citing a single FBI affidavit and these two men are no longer members of the human race.

EDIT: Personally, it seems likely these individuals are guilty of lying to the FBI and perhaps more. If they are convicted after a fair trial, they should be punished. At least until then, this drooling bloodlust is un-American, anti-freedom, and disgusting.

Unlike the reports from Gitmo, these men have been charged with a crime.

Check the batting average for the FBI against people like this - need I remind you of the Lackawanna idiots?

Ok, I'll wait until the trial. But I'll make a wager with you that they'll definitely be found guilty.

And then we can hang them.

So, something can be a form or justice, but not a justifiable punishment?
So you don't have a dark part of your personality? You've never had a gut reaction when reading about a brutal crime or something?

I'm not advocating that judges hand out rape as a sentence, but I'll admit that a vindictive and angry part of me sees it as a form of justice for criminals.

And, as I've pointed out, your opinion is that that are guilty of things of which they aren't even accused. :rolleyes:

A standard FBI tactic to get you to roll over and squeal on your friends and yourself is to charge you with lying to the FBI.

If they follow the Lackawanna pattern (as they may have already, since they're already squealing), they'll roll over on each other.

Then it's Title 18, Part I, Chapter 113B, Section 2339B.

Unlike the reports from Gitmo, these men have been charged with a crime.

Check the batting average for the FBI against people like this - need I remind you of the Lackawanna idiots?

Ok, I'll wait until the trial. But I'll make a wager with you that they'll definitely be found guilty.

And then we can hang them.

Hang them for the crime of lying to the FBI?

Martha Stewart should be swinging from a tree then, right?

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

So you don't have a dark part of your personality? You've never had a gut reaction when reading about a brutal crime or something?

I'm not advocating that judges hand out rape as a sentence, but I'll admit that a vindictive and angry part of me sees it as a form of justice for criminals.

I recognise that vengeance != justice.

I never called anyone to task on such feelings.

Question: does the USA still maintain the moral highground in the current conflict?

This is a war of national survival, if you haven't noticed. The writings of bin Laden and Zawahiri make it clear that this is war to the knife, and that it will only end when either none of them breathe air again, or all of us are dead. Tell me, if you're going to defend yourself in that situation, what moral highground could you possibly stand on, when not only victory, but survival, implies that you must kill these people where you find them?

If the USA decides that its primary motivating force is no longer a search for justice, but instead for vengeance, then it has itself shat on everything it has held dear for so long, and has sunk to the level of those who have attacked it.

That's what the American public will demand. I, on the other hand, see this from a purely scientific perspective. This is a war of extermination, declared as such by our opponents. They will brook no negotiation, no surrender, no amnesty, no armistice, no cease fire, and no exchange of prisoners. They want and demand our annihilation - that is their stated goal. They will, of course, negotiate temporary truces with other nations pending the destruction of the United States, but then they will continue with destroying the others once the US is destroyed.

Tell me, should we fight to survive, or should we hold moral thoughts in our heads while they execute us?

So, do you also consider rape and the possibility of HIV infection to be a form of justice?

No, but I understand why some people do. I'm all in favor of a quick death - hanging is fine.

Hang them for the crime of lying to the FBI?

Martha Stewart should be swinging from a tree then, right?hmmm...you are rigth...we cant get much out of that...

how about we fabricate an immigration violation...and deport them to one of our outsourcing torture camps in a puppet country...once over there we can legally hang them for miss-spelling "refrigerator".

Hang them for the crime of lying to the FBI?

Martha Stewart should be swinging from a tree then, right?

No. The charge of lying is to get them to squeal about something more substantial. Or to get them to squeal on each other.

It worked on the Lackawanna group.

Martha had a good lawyer who told her to shut up and take the short sentence.

I'm willing to wager these guys violated 2339B, and the FBI is just waiting for one of them to substantiate that.

Too bad you only get 15 years for that.

When are we going to liberalize the laws on sedition?

I recognise that vengeance != justice.
As do I, but when I'm angry the line blurs. I'm not seriously advocating rape as a punishment. I know that it's not right, but sometimes what you know and what you feel are two separate things. I'm proud to live in a country where rape isn't handed out by courts as a punisment, but part of me wants the enemies of my people to suffer unspeakable agony and degredation. Sometimes that comes out in my posts.

Tell me, should we fight to survive, or should we hold moral thoughts in our heads while they execute us?

Accepting you sketch of the scenario for the moment: it is is not a fight for survival for people who are Americans, but rather for the USA itself. If the forces ranged against it force it to betray its principles, then it has survived in name alone.

Accepting you sketch of the scenario for the moment: it is is not a fight for survival for people who are Americans, but rather for the USA itself. If the forces ranged against it force it to betray its principles, then it has survived in name alone.

I'm sorry. Bin Laden has written that even if the US government falls, and they take over, and every American steps forward to convert to Islam, they're going to kill us anyway.

So it's not about the USA itself. It's personal. It's about our individual and collective survival as human beings. Something a bit more basic than ideas.

I'm sorry. Bin Laden has written that even if the US government falls, and they take over, and every American steps forward to convert to Islam, they're going to kill us anyway.If that was true...You would see me picking up weapons and killing the OBL Islamists

I'm sorry. Bin Laden has written that even if the US government falls, and they take over, and every American steps forward to convert to Islam, they're going to kill us anyway.

So it's not about the USA itself. It's personal. It's about our individual and collective survival as human beings. Something a bit more basic than ideas.

So by launching the attacks on the US they have defeated the principles of the USA?

If that was true...You would see me picking up weapons and killing the OBL Islamists

It is true. Or did you miss the message that Osama put out, saying it's ok and necessary to get nuclear and biological weapons, so they can kill as many Americans as possible?

There are people that hate the US and how we do things here (the US) and abroad. I'm not terribly concerned. No matter how hard we try to do whats right there will still be detractors. I'm way more concerned about my country and whats good and right for us now. If that doesnt suit other people, thats too bad. And we should step up our efforts to locate and neutralize anyone here or abroad that is a threat. We wont ever please them, no matter how much we hand them or what concessions we make. They already hate us for what we are, what we have ,and however they feel we got it.

So by launching the attacks on the US they have defeated the principles of the USA?
No. But there may come a time when such principles may need to be suspended.

In a way, the Patriot Act is a suspension of rights. It is also engineered to be something that requires renewal.

Just because rights are suspended doesn't mean they won't come back when things get better.

So by launching the attacks on the US they have defeated the principles of the USA?
Principles do you no good once you're dead.

I'm sorry. Bin Laden has written that even if the US government falls, and they take over, and every American steps forward to convert to Islam, they're going to kill us anyway.

So it's not about the USA itself. It's personal. It's about our individual and collective survival as human beings. Something a bit more basic than ideas. Jeez, I had to click on the button five times before it worked… :rolleyes:

How much power do you think Bin Laden has? The security on the 9/11 planes was a joke, anyone could have done it… obviously he's a threat but… enough of a threat to warrant harsher measures than were used in WWII?

It is true. Or did you miss the message that Osama put out, saying it's ok and necessary to get nuclear and biological weapons, so they can kill as many Americans as possible?LOL
you have stated "TORTURE is an art"...

and SPINNING is what? a hobby? :D

Principles do you no good once you're dead.

Life doesn't amount to much without them.

Jeez, I had to click on the button five times before it worked… :rolleyes:

How much power do you think Bin Laden has? The security on the 9/11 planes was a joke, anyone could have done it… obviously he's a threat but… enough of a threat to warrant harsher measures than were used in WWII?
He's got over 100,000 friends who have been through his training camps.
A vial of smallpox can be hidden in your palm.

Harsher than WW II? I don't see us rounding up every convert to Islam and every person born to Islam and putting them in camps.

We did that to the Japanese during WW II. Harsher? I don't think so.

When we caught Americans helping the Germans plan (and not even commit) sabotage, we had a quick trial and hung them. Harsher? I don't think so.

LOL
you have stated "TORTURE is an art"...

and SPINNING is what? a hobby? :D

Is repeating what Osama orders "spin" on my part?

Is repeating what Osama orders "spin" on my part?deforming and twisting what someone says = spin.

you..or your sources are spinning...BTW did you get your transcripts from CNN/FOX/AP. ;)

I suggest you compare with Asian or European transcrips...or if you know an someone speaking Arab...get the orivinal sound and ask him what he is saying.

Life doesn't amount to much without them.
True, but if you have no life to enjoy them, what's the point?

I am VERY adamant about my principles. I just happen to include survival as my #1 principle. The rest of my principles mean nothing if I'm not alive to enjoy them.

deforming and twisting what someone says = spin.

you..or your sources are spinning...BTW did get your transcripts from CNN/FOX/AP.

I suggest you compare with Asian or European transcrips...or if you know an someone speaking Arab...get the orivinal sound and ask him what he is saying.

Nope. I have two separate people here who read Arabic who can translate for me.

None of it is deforming or twisting what he says at all.

What part of "they want to kill us all" do you not understand?

Nope. I have two separate people here who read Arabic who can translate for me.

None of it is deforming or twisting what he says at all.
so..you are not afraid to share the Arabic link?

...and maybe then we can have your arabic guys..translate.

I am VERY adamant about my principles. I just happen to include survival as my #1 principle. The rest of my principles mean nothing if I'm not alive to enjoy them.

So, the ony thing worth dying for is living?

I dont like to sit an speculate how intent someone is on hurting us or what their capabilities are. We know they are out there. We cant afford to sit here and wait to see what they can or cant do.
Its clear we have them on the run now. We have to increase the momentum-the more scum bags we catch, the more we will catch. Round them up and wring them out. Seize all of their stuff and what break what we dont want.
Everyone portarys the US as cowboys, we may as well fit the part-after all-what better do those that oppose us understand better than overwhelming force? Its how they do things. I have a feeling we're much better at it.

True, but if you have no life to enjoy them, what's the point?

I am VERY adamant about my principles. I just happen to include survival as my #1 principle. The rest of my principles mean nothing if I'm not alive to enjoy them.


I agree-survival and our way of life is the main priority. And when everyone is in line we can go back to worrying about how they feel. Until then, if they arent with us they are against us and need to be forced into submission.

so..you are not afraid to share the Arabic link?

...and maybe then we can have your arabic guys..translate.

I have two people who are translating - one is an American, and the other is an Egyptian.

Both have been reading sites that appear and disappear - the sites don't stay up very long.

They both have shown me original text written in the time of Zangi (during the Crusades) that matches in style and text some of the speeches by bin Laden. They both believe that he views himself as the new Caliph, and that he intends to restore the entire world to dar-al-Islam. His vision of Islam, of course.

By both his writing, and the parallels from hundreds of years ago, there won't be any mercy for the defeated - only death. It's not just us as people, or our government. Our very way of life - Western thought - is anathema to their vision of the world.

The two, in his mind and the minds of several Wahhabi religious leaders, cannot coexist. One must be utterly destroyed.

I've spent a lot of time on this. There are amazing texts written about jihad during the Crusades by various Arab authors. And Osama appears to be a student - a very serious student - of all of them.

He's following the rules laid down by Zangi. We're dead.

Its a witch hunt. Hunt long enough, you'll find a witch. Or at least someone who looks like one.

Perhaps a lot of misunderstandings will be made along the way, you know, some people may die that shouldn't have. Perhaps we'll have a culture of hysteria and pre-emptive accusations of witchcraft. Not a problem, lets just get those witches.

Its not a big deal, we know these witches are out there; all we have to do is find 'em and kill em before they destroy our crops and kill our children. After all, that IS what they want to do, we know all about Satan telling them to do so, we have the evidence in this book made by priests involved in the hunt.

You know what? Those who call out against the witch hunts turn out to be witches themselves fairly often...Perhaps if you want to stop the hunt YOU'RE a witch.

Its a witch hunt. Hunt long enough, you'll find a witch. Or at least someone who looks like one.

Perhaps a lot of misunderstandings will be made along the way, you know, some people may die that shouldn't have. Perhaps we'll have a culture of hysteria and pre-emptive accusations of witchcraft. Not a problem, lets just get those witches.

Its not a big deal, we know these witches are out there; all we have to do is find 'em and kill em before they destroy our crops and kill our children. After all, that IS what they want to do, we know all about Satan telling them to do so, we have the evidence in this book made by priests involved in the hunt.

You know what? Those who call out against the witch hunts turn out to be witches themselves fairly often...Perhaps if you want to stop the hunt YOU'RE a witch.
Well, people who want to get al-Q training, and who sympathize with al-Q, seem to fall into the category of:

if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it's probably a duck

The quicker that we kill all of them the sooner this will be over.

Until then, if they arent with us they are against us and need to be forced into submission. Right, that's most of the world your enemy then, including a lot of Europe. That's acceptable?

I have two people who are translating - one is an American, and the other is an Egyptian.

Both have been reading sites that appear and disappear - the sites don't stay up very long.

They both have shown me original text written in the time of Zangi (during the Crusades) that matches in style and text some of the speeches by bin Laden. They both believe that he views himself as the new Caliph, and that he intends to restore the entire world to dar-al-Islam. His vision of Islam, of course.

By both his writing, and the parallels from hundreds of years ago, there won't be any mercy for the defeated - only death. It's not just us as people, or our government. Our very way of life - Western thought - is anathema to their vision of the world.

The two, in his mind and the minds of several Wahhabi religious leaders, cannot coexist. One must be utterly destroyed.

I've spent a lot of time on this. There are amazing texts written about jihad during the Crusades by various Arab authors. And Osama appears to be a student - a very serious student - of all of them.

He's following the rules laid down by Zangi. We're dead.2 arabic translators...thats a luxury.

Land of the Free, Home of the Brave. :rolleyes:
The US? Since when? Last I heard it's the home of the torturers, the monkey king and the brain-less. Bush, Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, the Iraq war... this can't be the land of the free nor of the brave. :(

He's got over 100,000 friends who have been through his training camps.
A vial of smallpox can be hidden in your palm.

Harsher than WW II? I don't see us rounding up every convert to Islam and every person born to Islam and putting them in camps.

We did that to the Japanese during WW II. Harsher? I don't think so.

When we caught Americans helping the Germans plan (and not even commit) sabotage, we had a quick trial and hung them. Harsher? I don't think so. Sorry, I'm British, so I meant by British standards and the way we treated prisoners… certainly we now are. Haven't had internment since Northern Ireland years and years ago.

So, the ony thing worth dying for is living?
I'll admit that my belief in God is worth dying for. I believe that my (our) way of life is worth dying for...and fighting/killing for. And like Patton said:

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

This can also be applied to ideologies/cultures/etc. I prefer that the other dumb bastard die for his than to die needlessly for mine. That's where survival comes in.

2 arabic translators...thats a luxury.
I've known the Egyptian since 1991. We took a liking to each other because he was prior service (in the Egyptian Army) and I was prior service in the US Army.

The other guy is a defense consultant.

I have to have an ability to verify that one of them isn't spinning, you know. They don't know about each other.

I have two people who are translating - one is an American, and the other is an Egyptian.

Both have been reading sites that appear and disappear - the sites don't stay up very long.hummm the appearing and disappearing sites huh?

i know about this Site that is sure to have the video+transcripts ON THEIR ARABIC SIDE.

so if they don't want to waste time on unreliable sources they should use this one.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E87F61F.htm
here is the arabic side:
www.aljazeera.net

...and these ones does not appear-and-disappear.

hummm the appering and disappearing sites huh?

i know about this Site that is sure to have the video+transcrips ON THEIR ARABIC SIDE.

so if they don want to waste time on unrialable sources they should use this one.

and it does not appear-and-disappear.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E87F61F.htm
here is the arabic side:
www.aljazeera.net

Al-Jazeera is a news organ. We're reading the jihadi site directly.

Why should I trust a news organization when I can have the information directly?

If people should trust al-Jazeera as a news source, then we should all read the Sun, Bild, and watch Fox News.

Well, people who want to get al-Q training, and who sympathize with al-Q, seem to fall into the category of:

if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it's probably a duck

The quicker that we kill all of them the sooner this will be over.

Um...It will never be over. Remember? The president said so himself. This is an eternal war against terrorism. There will be no end to it.

Besides, there practically no limits on Al-Qeda membership that we know of, and we have no idea 'how many are left' at any given point, so we can be sure when the last one is dead, right? Thus; eternal warfare against an unknowable enemy.

The quicker we kill them...nothing. The speed in which we kill them has no bearing on anything at all in the slightest. We could kill 1 a day or 10 a day for the rest of our lives a it would make no significant difference in the numbers of terrorists.

Simply put; no. You're wrong. There will never be an end to this war. Because we've started this war against a word. There is no objective in this war whatsoever. We are simply fighting. Fighting an dying without purpose or point. We have simply started attacking and defending our objectives irrespective of the enemy.

Tell me; when will this be over? When Al-qeda hasn't attacked the US homeland in 4 years? When Afganistan holds its 2nd free election? Its 5th? When Iraq holds free elections? Which time? For which government? What's your exit strategy for this war? What are our goals? Is it over when Bin Laden is dead? We already know the answer to that is "no".

You don't know. I don't know. Bush doesn't know. Nobody knows when this war will end. Because we don't know how to win. We don't know what "winning" this war means.

They haven't attacked because we've killed most of their mid and upper level organization members. Captured a few, but assassinated the rest.

And we've lured and tricked would-be members into thinking that they were talking to al-Qaeda recruiters - which makes recruiting in the US very, very difficult.

That's why there haven't been any attacks since 9-11.

Other nations are also loathe to sponsor training camps for them. It's the kind of thing that gets the US to show up and depose your government overnight.

Al-Jazeera is a news organ. We're reading the jihadi site directly.care to share the links of those jihadist web sites ???



Why should I trust a news organization when I can have the information directly?.Do not trust them..just read them..same with the Jihadist sites
then we should all read the Sun, Bild, and watch Fox News.Yes!!! yes we should...
read at least one of them once in while...read the prowar/antiwar, projews/promuslim, neutrals leftwing/rigthwing...
get yourself some perspective.

And hopefully they'll get a koran shoved up their you-know-what sideways.
On the bright side, they might meet some nice HIV infected boyfriends behind bars.
hey'll get their trial right before they're placed in a cell with an HIV positive homosexual rapist/killer.
No, I was the one suggesting that rape (by a violent HIV positive criminal) is a form of justice. I've got an evil streak.
I said vermin, not apes. I like apes.
I'm not advocating that judges hand out rape as a sentence, but...

Celebrating a victory over vermin who had planned to kill hundreds or perhaps thousands of my people isn't trolling.No, but all this talk about forced sodomy and rape by HIV-infected prisoners is.


You've been given multiple chances to reform and learn, and each time you come back with the same trolling style and utter lack of understanding of the rules of these forums. After a discussion between three Game Mods and two Forum Mods, we have decided to give you one last chance.

For this thread, you are awarded a fourteen day forumban. Upon your inevitable return, any sign of trolling, flaming, or other rulebreaking, in-game or in-forum, will result in your deletion, and the impostion of a Delete-on-Sight order. Any behavior normally construable as borderline will be used against you for this purpose.

You've had enough chances. It ends now.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop

They trained in Pakistani Al Quaeda camps. They were asked where they'd like to carry out missions. They chose the USA. Wrong choice a**holes. We got you now!

*Promptly adds Drunk commies deleted to the short list of people he respects.*

hey the holy muslim book doesnt go there........its too good for them. those people are not muslims, because it clearly states in the holy muslim book that killing innocent people is very wrong, and its a 1st class ticket to hell.

i hope they rot in the dirty camps

ps im muslim and them Bas*ards dont deserve to be called that

Americans need to differentiate between Muslim and Al Qaida - just because a person is muslim does NOT make him a terrorist, neither are statements like shoving the holy book of Islam up someone's butt called for. When an American makes a statement like that it's a VICTORY for the terrorists because once Islam and terrorism become one entity, violence against muslims becomes acceptable and then you turn the entire Islamic world against America - which is what the TERRORISTS want!! They know that the muslim world is very divided - sunni vs shiite, moderates vs hotheads, etc. in various countries - but once it looks like America is going after Islam, then even the moderates will pitch in. It's a simple, classic terrorist ploy - get the government to beat up the innocent people for the deeds of the guilty. It worked for the IRA (and its predecessors in Michael Collins' time) and other groups and it will work again here.

You'll pardon us for being outraged and disgusted by a group that is willing to fly commercial airliners into civilian targets on purpose.

Or a group that has declared its intention to acquire nuclear weapons and smallpox as soon as possible so they can use them to annihilate us.

And pardon us for being outraged and disgusted by anyone who would support that group, no matter how trivial the support.

I foresee the day when another 9-11 happens - or something worse. And on that day, there will be no need for police, courts, jails, or law. Justice will not be on the menu - only vengeance. And if you think what the US is doing now is unjust, unseemly, unfair, or somehow insane, you will wish yourself off this planet on that day.

I believe most, if not all good and decent people were horrified by the events of 9-11 - I certainly was (my sister was in NEW YORK that day, scheduled for an interview at the WTC no less but luckily she had to cancel!!) but it does not give America carte blanche to declare war against everyone she considers a threat for the flimsiest reasons or arrest and possibly torture whoever she wants without adequate justification nor go on ranting about destroying the holy books of a faith that happens to be practiced by those which attacked it when it also happens to be practiced by most of its important allies in this particular war, not to mention fighting men and women in its own armed forces.

Keep on with that attitude and America will find herself without allies, isolated in a war without borders, in a WORSE position than Nazi Germany in 1945 because half the world will either hate it or have nothing to do with it because it's a loose cannon. America took more than 200 years to build it's reputation as the vanguard of freedom and democracy. Don't destroy that in less than 20.

According to any "civilized" country's rules, any person who commit felonies has to go to jail. I'm shure these people were aware that they were commiting crimes, so they will(as I would) put up with the penalty... the thing is that the penalty is too hard on them, and all that degradation and humiliation shows the world that the US isn't as "civilized" as you all think... Is that democracy? Is that the "freedom" that your government preaches?
I don't think so... I must tell you all, I only know the US from TV and people around me that has been there, but I believe there's no worse place on earth... The government is controlling everything like a dictatorship, and the people allows it!! If the government took more attention to what happened inside its own country, they could sweep ignorance and poorty and set an example... of coures, that's not what they want to do; that's what no politician on earth wants... You can see I hate politicians, specially from the US... Putting all that aside, I think the terrorists should go to prison, or sent to their own countries so that their laws can be applied to them, as the US wants to their citizens...

Greetings from a under developed, yet better than yours, country!

Al-Jazeera is a news organ. We're reading the jihadi site directly.

Why should I trust a news organization when I can have the information directly?

If people should trust al-Jazeera as a news source, then we should all read the Sun, Bild, and watch Fox News.
Small point, one that has been lost in much of the reporting about al-Jazeera, it is mainly staffed by ex BBC World Service journalists some of whom began the channel when BBC World closed it's offices in the Arabian peninsular to save money. Not making any other point but I think it is one worth remembering. :)

Small point, one that has been lost in much of the reporting about al-Jazeera, it is mainly staffed by ex BBC World Service journalists some of whom began the channel when BBC World closed it's offices in the Arabian peninsular to save money. Not making any other point but I think it is one worth remembering. :)

If you believe that somehow that makes me believe that al-Jazeera is more truthful and less biased, I have a bridge in New York City I'd like to sell you.

Need I remind you that al-Jazeera, during the recent invasion of Iraq, took the statements of the Iraqi Information Minister (later known as Baghdad Bob) as truth, and decried US reports that it had surrounded Baghdad as false.

Great news service, that. Remind me to keep it on my list of "world's most trustworthy, accurate, and unbiased news sources".

If people should trust al-Jazeera as a news source, then we should all read the Sun, Bild, and watch Fox News.

Whenever I go to England, my Auntie always gets me the Sun. It's not as good as it was in the 80s though.

Anyway, it's a fucking brilliant paper. :)

Small point, one that has been lost in much of the reporting about al-Jazeera, it is mainly staffed by ex BBC World Service journalists some of whom began the channel when BBC World closed it's offices in the Arabian peninsular to save money. Not making any other point but I think it is one worth remembering. :)

You do know that the BBC is not credible, right?

If you believe that somehow that makes me believe that al-Jazeera is more truthful and less biased, I have a bridge in New York City I'd like to sell you.
No I don't think it will change your mind. That's why I said "Not making any other point". All news services are biased, you do not need to remind me of al-Jazeera bias or any western news services' bias for that matter. Original sources are always better if you have access. I made the point simply because I felt it was relevant to the topic. Nothing else intentionally implied :)

@Lacadaemon
Subjective opinion there but I do agree that the BBC has a bias. See above.

If you believe that somehow that makes me believe that al-Jazeera is more truthful and less biased, I have a bridge in New York City I'd like to sell you.

Need I remind you that al-Jazeera, during the recent invasion of Iraq, took the statements of the Iraqi Information Minister (later known as Baghdad Bob) as truth, and decried US reports that it had surrounded Baghdad as false.

Great news service, that. Remind me to keep it on my list of "world's most trustworthy, accurate, and unbiased news sources".

May I remind you that the aforementioned Iraqi Information Minister said this:

"I blame Al-Jazeera - they are marketing for the Americans!"

(It's from Welovetheiraqiinformationminister)

Generally, each side sees a new source as biased against them.

(I have no personal knowledge of what A-J says, I'm just providing an interesting tidbit)

May I remind you that the aforementioned Iraqi Information Minister said this:

"I blame Al-Jazeera - they are marketing for the Americans!"

(It's from Welovetheiraqiinformationminister)

Generally, each side sees a new source as biased against them.

(I have no personal knowledge of what A-J says, I'm just providing an interesting tidbit)

Up until the Americans had spent several days hanging out in Baghdad, al-Jazeera was reporting that thousands of Americans were dying in the wire outside the city, and that no Americans were in the city, and that the Americans were being pushed back to the sea.

Very accurate reporting.

Whenever I go to England, my Auntie always gets me the Sun. It's not as good as it was in the 80s though.

The glory days of their reporting on the Hillsborough stadium disaster?

Americans need to differentiate between Muslim and Al Qaida - just because a person is muslim does NOT make him a terrorist, neither are statements like shoving the holy book of Islam up someone's butt called for.


Most of us are well aware of this. This isnt a holy war for us. Unfortunately, you have to tell the muslims that. Christians are not waging a crusade. The US and it allies are targeting specific groups that have plotted and acted against us.
If this were a holy war, you would see mosques were the zealots are recruited and spread their hateful indoctrination reduced to smoking craters.

But you dont see that.

Most of us are well aware of this. This isnt a holy war for us.

Despite what the idiot in the white house might say.

You do know that the BBC is not credible, right?not credible on what subject? the Iraq war?

Up until the Americans had spent several days hanging out in Baghdad, al-Jazeera was reporting that thousands of Americans were dying in the wire outside the city, and that no Americans were in the city, and that the Americans were being pushed back to the sea.you are spinning again... its really an art for you isn't it..

yesterday you spinned OBL tapes...today you are spinning AJ

Terrorists, your game is through!

not credible on what subject? the Iraq war?

Oh nearly everything. I am not saying every report it does is wrong, but so many of them are it is too difficult to parse out the good ones. Also, it's very slanted and tends to get the wrong end of the stick about anything that occurs outside of the home counties.

The glory days of their reporting on the Hillsborough stadium disaster?

Hahaha.

Seriously though, I love the Sun. It's brilliant and reminds me of six-form. the only better publication back then was Viz. Then that twat branson bought it, and it wasn't funny anymore.

(I remember when viz was a geordie only thingy, and you had to go to odd little shops to find it)

Hey, that's not fair. They're going to get an attractive naked woman to dance for them... and they're going to get high on fantastic drugs....

THAT'S TORTURE, YOU BARBARIC AMERICAN!

Despite what the idiot in the white house might say.


You mean he "could" say, right? He hasnt and he wont. I really dont think he might.

Your opinion certainly doest mean thats true, or even close to it.

You might say that too.

dp

You mean he "could" say, right? He hasnt and he wont. I really dont think he might.

Your opinion certainly doest mean thats true, or even close to it.

You might say that too.

No, I was refering to his idiotic use of the term 'crusade' in an unguarded moment. This is not to be read as me stating that I believe GWB is waging a religious war, instead just that I believe he should think before he opens his mouth.

Oh nearly everything. I am not saying every report it does is wrong, but so many of them are it is too difficult to parse out the good ones. Also, it's very slanted and tends to get the wrong end of the stick about anything that occurs outside of the home counties.WOW
so...In your opinion what are the better TV sources for the Iraq war?

...what are the best newspaper sources?

WOW
so...In your opinion what are the better TV sources for the Iraq war?

...what are the best newspaper sources?

If you want international news, the Wall Street Journal is usually pretty good. You probably won't agree with its editorials, but they actually are pretty good at keeping that seperate from the factual reports.

The problem with the Journal is that it tends to report things that no-one cares about. (In great detail).

Seriously though, I don't know what you expect. There are no "good' sources for the situation in Iraq. Everyone has too much invested, and their own axes to grind. If you want to know what is really happening in Iraq, you'll have to wait a few decades until everyone calms down, and people start to tell the truth.

You just can't rely on news media to keep you reliably informed about what is happening in the world.

As to the BBC, does the Royal Navy allow its broadcasts on HM ships again yet?

WOW
so...In your opinion what are the better TV sources for the Iraq war?

...what are the best newspaper sources? There are no "good' sources for the situation in Iraq.Thats why I used the word "better"
If you want international news, the Wall Street Journal is usually pretty good..for Iraq war news? really? If you want to know what is really happening in Iraq, you'll have to wait a few decades ..you mean like for JFK??...
like we have to wait for then to unseal the Kennedy assassination docs...like until the year 2027 ??

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8185936/site/newsweek/

Storm Clouds In California
Did the Feds find Qaeda trainees out West?

The arrest of the Hayats, followed the next day with the arrests of two local imams on immigration charges, was portrayed by the FBI as a demonstration of how far the bureau's efforts to thwart domestic terror have come since September 11. It didn't hurt that the success was announced the same week that the Justice Department released a damning report detailing the FBI's failed attempts to catch the 9/11 hijackers. The FBI clearly hopes the Hayat case will help reassure the public that things at the bureau have changed.

Yet last week there were already questions about how strong the case against Hamid Hayat really is, especially after the Justice Department mistakenly released a draft of the affidavit in the case, only to change it a few hours later.
...
For now, the Hayats sit in a California jail. The FBI knows that the case—and the bureau's credibility—will be under scrutiny. Since 9/11, the FBI has chased "an incredible number of allegations," says Dennis Lormel, a senior FBI counterterrorism official until December 2003. Yet Lormel says he's "not aware of any specific [Qaeda] cells" that have been found—only individual operatives. Now it's up to the Feds to prove that Hamid Hayat was a would-be Qaeda killer, and not just another unwitting bumbler tangled in the dragnet.

FBI claims in Lodi case doubted
Pakistan denies terrorist training camps exist there
Associated Press

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz denied Saturday there are terrorist camps in Pakistan, adding that he is seeking information from the FBI about a California man accused of receiving jihadist training near Pakistan's capital.

Other experts also questioned the FBI's version of events. Aziz's comments at a news conference came a day after a federal judge in Sacramento, refused to grant bail to Hamid Hayat, 22. His father, Umer Hayat, 47, also has been denied bail.

Aziz said Saturday there are no terrorist training facilities in Pakistan. ''There are no such camps,'' he said. Aziz said he had asked Pakistan's embassy in Washington for details of the FBI's allegations.

Terrorism experts noted Rawalpindi is an unlikely location for such camps because it is the site of both President Pervez Musharraf's official residence and the Pakistani army's general headquarters, though some Pakistani military and intelligence officials have been sympathetic to the Taliban and al-Qaida.

Experts said such camps do exist in other parts of the country, run by al-Qaida and other jihadist organizations along the remote, mountainous border with Afghanistan, and in the independent North-West Frontier Province, in Waziristan, in the Punjab and in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir.

''We're standing by the affidavit filed in court,'' a later version that deleted the contested details, said the FBI's Cauthen. FBI spokeswoman Ann Todd in Washington, D.C., had no additional comment.
http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/11877903.htm