NationStates Jolt Archive

First of all, congratulations with your election results!

While the anonymous poll no doubt made fraud easy I think it is nevertheless a very good idea to have a political system in this forum. I think you can all be proud for your campaigning efforts, especially Arridia who organised this thing. With a public poll a next election would no doubt be even more effective, and it could grow into something nice.

http://www.fredvogels.org/images/NSGenElectresult.PNG
Pie chart of results, by seat
Arranged on a liberal / socialist scale

As you can see, I think there is a more liberally inclined block, headed by the NS Classic Liberals and a more socialist inclined block led by the Democratic Socialist Party. There aren’t any really conservative parties (the pundits seem to have stayed out of the election or voted for a silly alternative). There are many parties, and it is a very diverse landscape.

I voted NS Classical Liberals, but having read some things on the forums I am beginning to have second doubts and I would like the parties (if they want to) to present to me their reasons (no punditry please – I respond very poorly to punditry) of why I should join up with them (or remain with them, in the case of the Classical Liberals) I am especially looking at the Democratic Socialist Party based on their manifesto, but open to other options. The communists probably would not want me :)

If you look at ideology I’m obviously much closer to the Classic Liberals. My political compass (see signature) would also appear to match the Classic Liberal quadrant quite well. However, I am not feeling entirely in the right spot there. The manifesto is okay, I suppose, as is the line of arguments being taken so I may yet decide to stay if some things become clear to me.

To give you an idea of my political views:
IRL I’m a member of the Democratic party D’66 in the Netherlands. I guess you could me consider a liberal, especially on social issues (abortion, gay marriage, legalising prostitution and soft drugs and all that) which are issues that I feel strongly about. That said, I oppose the proliferation of guns on a purely practical reasons and I would feel *very* uncomfortable in a party supporting capital punishment. I have seen NS Classic Liberals take different stances these social issues, which I find slightly uncomfortable. I’d like to hear how the Democratic Socialist Party (and perhaps other moderate parties which I may have overlooked) think about this.

Economically, I’m more eclectic. I’m what one might call a positive liberal, modern liberal, call it what you will: I support free trade and a market economy but within a ‘rheinland model’, i.e. education should be accessible for all, there should be a welfare state in the sense that nobody should be dying off hunger. On the other hand, I’m not dirty of welfare reform – just not things like ‘private accounts’ like in the United States. Put me somewhere between Blair and the Liberal Democrats, if you want a UK example :) I don’t get along well with the anti-capitalists on this forum to say the least and socialism and unions… eeew :P I’d like to hear the Democratic Socialist economic agenda in general (especially their feelings about protectionism/revolution etc) and maybe if some Liberals could tell me how much tolerance they have for an eclectic approach this would be nice too.

Lastly, there is the very important subject of foreign policy. I have rather strong opinions about this subject, and seeing myself in a party with USA Republicans is not too nice indeed. I absolutely oppose neoconservatism and you’ll consistently find me on the ‘Europe / USA liberal’ side of NS General debates whenever (rarely) I decide to participate in them. I asked the NS Classical Liberals for opinions but got no response. This is a second chance, but other parties can also outline an attractive platform for me now :)

Alternatively, might people be interested in a party for left-liberal (I suppose we could call it the Liberal Elite Party :P) if I like no alternative whatsoever. Its really up to your arguments now.

As the previous post shows, I also have a tendency to rant 0_o

Nice chart. I won't try to convert you over to the UDCP, for obvious reasons. ;)

Alternatively, might people be interested in a party for left-liberal (I suppose we could call it the Liberal Elite Party :P) if I like no alternative whatsoever. Its really up to your arguments now.

I most certainly would, I was thinking of starting up my own party once I get the time, but everything you've described is near-identical to what I'd plump for. (Plus us liberals need to protect our elite status... :p)

*leaves the floor to make room for those who can actually debate* :)

there was an election? this forum has a government? Well if the commies can't take over america then they might as well take of this forum, hmph leave it to the democrats. Anyhow..

I most certainly would, I was thinking of starting up my own party once I get the time, but everything you've described is near-identical to what I'd plump for. (Plus us liberals need to protect our elite status... :p)

*leaves the floor to make room for those who can actually debate* :)

We would have merchandise ;) (clickable)
http://storetn.cafepress.com/4/20663944_F_store.jpg (http://www.cafepress.com/thewhitehouse/571903)

Anyway, if I can be at home within an existing party that would be preferable. Otherwise, yes, I will consider it and I would love to do it with some active generalites.

Nice chart. I won't try to convert you over to the UDCP, for obvious reasons. ;)

Har. As long as I don't get put up against the wall when the revolution comes. :p

Between Blair and the Lib Dems! *vomits*

Anyway....

Well there is a debate in the classic liberals about education, gun control got a good working over and i was for it but i don't think many others were. Free trade and an end to corporate welfare is what we advocate strongly. If you hate unions and the like i cannot see why you would want to join the democratic socialists. Plus they seem pretty disorganised as they cannot find enough members to take seats and did not do any campaigning to speak of. I think you should stay with us, but it is up to you.

Har. As long as I don't get put up against the wall when the revolution comes. :p
As if those reformist cop-outs would ever do anything of any significance. Vote for us and we'll be proud to line you all up against the wall

Well, Wegason, the fact that Blair is with Labour aside he is quite pro-market. New Labour is an almost neoliberal organisation, I would say. The tories, IMO, are just a stupider version of New Labour and therefore unable to win an election even with all the omens in their favour.

I participated in the debate on gun control, as you did, but did not get an answer to my questions about American foreign policy et al. Which is really what I was looking for.

The fact that the Democratic Socialists have 'socialist' in their name is probably what is keeping me from joining them. That said, if they still need people to fill up their seats I'm availiable. I can be veeeery loyal to any platform in exchange for a seat ;)

As I said previously, Democratic Socialist may be just a tiny bit mileading.
It's not Socialist like Marx, it's Socialist like the parties in Spain or France.

More like Social Democrat.

I always say we have a vision for a society with as much equality as possible. Humans are not all equal, they are individuals. As much as I admire Marx, and as much as I agree with his depiction of society as it was back then, the idea that all people could live in harmony without envy or anything, is probably just a little too idealistic.

So we are in favour of using markets (more efficient than public planning) to achieve an outcome in that direction. As you know, we are in favour of public welfare, education and health, a tax system in which the rich pay more than the poor, and a relatively free immigration system, in which immigrants will be supported with language and culture courses.

I reckon we'd probably the party for you!

The NS Classic Liberals do not have an explicit foreign policy as of the moment. However it is likely to be a very tolerant policy that looks toward accomodation rather than conflict. We will have an effective military, but defence for us really does mean defence rather than "the best form of defense is attack".

As our central tenet is that people should be empowered to decide for themselves it is likely that we would support democratic movements in non democratic areas by diplomatic means, not by military intervention. We do not have the right to force our ideals on others. We are opposed to any government intervention in trade and business so embargos and boycotts we could recommend to our commercial sector, but we could not enforce these in law.

We would look to encourage scientific and technical co-operation wherever possible and likewise encourage, but not fund, cultural exchanges etc.

On education. I personally have been fighting what currently appears to be a losing battle to try and restrict free education to a lower age range. The majority appear to be arguing for voucher education to be extended to at least 16 years of age. I have made the majority of my points but there are still strong arguments both ways. I will probably concede this debate in a while, but I will fight on a while yet. However that is my position, and I am just one of the 18 members we have signed up at the moment. The others can easily out push me on this if they so desire. It seems likely that the education issue will be more to your liking in the end than mine, but political parties require some compromise.

Well, that sounds interesting. Both have compelling arguments. But maybe I can ask some practical questions to get things clearer. (I'll ask them to both sides)

What would be the preferred level of total tax rate as a percentage rate of GDP. [Example: 30%-40% of GDP]
Does the party have a position on capital punishment (if no position exists, what are the feelings within the party on this issue?)
Do you believe in the policy of Keynes (for the soc dems), or the Bush pemanent tax cuts (for the libs)?
What is the party position on the European Union and the Constitutional Treaty?
Which party do you feel most closely affiliated to (a) in the United States (b) in the United Kingdom (c) in Germany
What about the International Criminal Court in The Hague?


That should clear up a lot of issues for me :)

Well, that sounds interesting. Both have compelling arguments. But maybe I can ask some practical questions to get things clearer. (I'll ask them to both sides)

1. What would be the preferred level of total tax rate as a percentage rate of GDP. [Example: 30%-40% of GDP]
That is the easy one 0% The government is seen as abusiness which has resources of its own (land, military, expertise etc.) from which it can generate sufficient income to meet the expenditure demands.
2. Does the party have a position on capital punishment (if no position exists, what are the feelings within the party on this issue?)
At the moment it is still under discussion, but the tendency is toward the use of the death penalty in specific cases. (Clear admission, irrefutable evidence or on request by the convicted individual)
3. Do you believe in the policy of Keynes (for the soc dems), or the Bush pemanent tax cuts (for the libs)? I can not answer for the party but I don't believe in anything Bush says. :p
4. What is the party position on the European Union and the Constitutional Treaty?
Again this is personal, not party, as it is not a point that has been discussed yet as we are not to be running a 'European' virtual nation, we are to be running a 'non specifc' virtual nation, but I am opposed to the constitution because I am opposed to codified constitutions. Iam strongly pro the European Union, and have suggested here several times that Brazil should join. (If Turkey can be considered a potential member, then why not Brazil?)
5. Which party do you feel most closely affiliated to (a) in the United States (b) in the United Kingdom (c) in Germany
None in any of them, well in the US we are probably closest the Libertarians as they originally were, and in the UK we are Whigs, but not Libs or Social Dems. Germany I can't comment (we dont get too much German political information here!)
6. What about the International Criminal Court in The Hague?
I have just asked that question of our party and await a response/discussion. For me personally I support the ICC

Well, that sounds interesting. Both have compelling arguments. But maybe I can ask some practical questions to get things clearer. (I'll ask them to both sides)

What would be the preferred level of total tax rate as a percentage rate of GDP. [Example: 30%-40% of GDP]

It seems the general consensus is that the more you earn, the more you are taxed. As for the preferred level, it depends totally on the economy and the needs of welfare, etc. I would be saying at least 30% myself, but that is not a party policy.

Does the party have a position on capital punishment (if no position exists, what are the feelings within the party on this issue?)

Human life is sacred. No.

Do you believe in the policy of Keynes (for the soc dems), or the Bush pemanent tax cuts (for the libs)?

We think that Keynes is probably the best alternative, though it does need to be adapted/fixed somewhat. Definitely not Bush.

What is the party position on the European Union and the Constitutional Treaty?

I don't have a strong opinion, but according to Leonstein: "Very much pro-EU, we need a constitution, I personally don't know what a country needs sovereignty for if there are no enemies it needs to attack."

Which party do you feel most closely affiliated to (a) in the United States (b) in the United Kingdom (c) in Germany

According to Leonstein:
"US- Hmm, Nader but I'd settle for Democrats
UK- Possibly LibDem, but I don't know much about them. Not a fan of Blair or the Conservatives though.
Germany- Bündnis '90/Die Grünen in social issues, economically SPD, so the current coalition is great."

I agree for the most part, except I'm mroe towards Green for the US, and I kinda also like the CSU in Germany.


What about the International Criminal Court in The Hague?


That should clear up a lot of issues for me :)
And again, according to Leonstein: "Only an international court can be neutral and fair. Anyone who doesn't take part is obviously not interested in fair trials for war criminals, but rather in Show Trials (like with Saddam Hussein) "

Knoot, don't tell me you're serious about this. If you think disagreements about gun control are uncomfortable... ugh. You'd be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here. I mean is agreeing with gun control, worth tolerating disagreement about taxation, free enterprise and trade?

Knoot, don't tell me you're serious about this. If you think disagreements about gun control are uncomfortable... ugh. You'd be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here. I mean is agreeing with gun control, worth tolerating disagreement about taxation, free enterprise and trade?
He thinks discussion about capital punishment are uncomfortable. And frankly, from a moral point of view, it is hard to back a party who support killing people if you are totally against it.

He thinks discussion about capital punishment are uncomfortable. And frankly, from a moral point of view, it is hard to back a party who support killing people if you are totally against it.

The party doesn't have an official position on that, so he is just uncomfortable that the NSCL party members have differing opinions. Apparently he thinks your party has only one mind on everything because none of you bother with 'individual' opinions. Grass looks greener on the other side, I say.

As the previous post shows, I also have a tendency to rant 0_o
Really??? Wow! Thanks for the heads-up on that. I never would have known otherwise. ;)

Economically, I’m more eclectic. I’m what one might call a positive liberal, modern liberal, call it what you will: I support free trade and a market economy but within a ‘rheinland model’, i.e. education should be accessible for all, there should be a welfare state in the sense that nobody should be dying off hunger. On the other hand, I’m not dirty of welfare reform – just not things like ‘private accounts’ like in the United States. Put me somewhere between Blair and the Liberal Democrats, if you want a UK example :) I don’t get along well with the anti-capitalists on this forum to say the least and socialism and unions… eeew :P I’d like to hear the Democratic Socialist economic agenda in general (especially their feelings about protectionism/revolution etc) and maybe if some Liberals could tell me how much tolerance they have for an eclectic approach this would be nice too.
My response to your 6 questions are on the Democratic Socialist thread

Your economic views seem to match up quite nicely with my own. I'm a DemSoc member here. I wrote more about this on our thread.

Anyway, your social issues are also near-identical to mine.

Foreign policy, you're probably a bit to the left of me. I believe that unilateral intervention can be positive, particularly in cases like Rwanda. I also believe Afghanistan to be a justified intervention. Our views are not really incompatible.

DISCLAIMER: I don't speak for everyone in the party. Just saying that your views would be very much welcome and shared by others in the Democratic Socialist party.

... maybe I can ask some practical questions to get things clearer. (I'll ask them to both sides)

[1]What would be the preferred level of total tax rate as a percentage rate of GDP. [Example: 30%-40% of GDP]
[2]Does the party have a position on capital punishment (if no position exists, what are the feelings within the party on this issue?)
[3]Do you believe in the policy of Keynes (for the soc dems), or the Bush pemanent tax cuts (for the libs)?
[4]What is the party position on the European Union and the Constitutional Treaty?
[5]Which party do you feel most closely affiliated to (a) in the United States (b) in the United Kingdom (c) in Germany
[6]What about the International Criminal Court in The Hague?


If you don't mind a response from the Party of Whatever Works, I can offer the following:

1. A rate of something below 20% would be "preferable." As a practical matter, the POWW doesn't focus on a percentage of GDP, but rather advocates a balanced budget at all levels of government. This forces politicians to make hard choices.

2. The POWW advocates the eventual abolition of capital punishment ( as well as Capitol punishment! ), with a limited list of crimes for which capital punishment is grudingly acceptable until other means of insuring public safety can be developed.

3. The POWW advocates the elmination of all "hidden" taxes, exemptions, and decuctions, with a percentage of all income, from whatever source, for all individuals and organizations, voted on in advance by the legislative body. Taken together with mandatory balanced budgets, this will force politicians to publically declare themselves and avoid "backdoor" taxation and pork barrel programs.

4. We support the EU, but believe the Constitution should be rewritten with guarantees of both individual freedoms and national identity.

5. US: none ( perhaps a coalition of social liberals, middle of the road economists, and international libertarians? Hard to say. )
UK: insufficient information.
Germany: insufficient information.

6. We support the International Criminal Court, with the proviso that nations continue to have the right to decide what is and is not criminal actvity within their own borders.

It sounds like you are liberal, but not that far liberal. So then I'd assume you are only a little bit left of center? Like maybe -2, -3, or so? If it's -2 to 0, then I'd say you'd prolly fit in with Tink or WW. But if you don't like the part about a queendom or whatever, then you should definitely go with Whatever Works.

However if you are around -5, then the DSP is probably best for you. Or Tink I guess. But any much further than -5 and you should start looking at Trotsky and the Commies.

It sounds like you are liberal, but not that far liberal. So then I'd assume you are only a little bit left of center? Like maybe -2, -3, or so? If it's -2 to 0, then I'd say you'd prolly fit in with Tink or WW. But if you don't like the part about a queendom or whatever, then you should definitely go with Whatever Works.

However if you are around -5, then the DSP is probably best for you. Or Tink I guess. But any much further than -5 and you should start looking at Trotsky and the Commies.
:D