NationStates Jolt Archive

Discuss amongst yourselves. Keep in mind however...

The Euro is plummetting and countries in the EU have econemy's going down the drain

Europes population is plummeting downhill faster than ever before since the black plague

And some countries like France are too afraid of progress.

Plus the constitution was rejected which means more European instability.

Please check your facts and try not to be so melodramatic.

The EU is not "Screwed" though i have never felt it is th best course of action for a country to take (pionts to iceland as proof of a superior alternative).

And some countries like France are too afraid of progress.

Really? :confused:

Plus the constitution was rejected which means more European instability.

How? I doubt the EU is going to crumble because of it. The EU has had similar set backs before an survived, I don't see why this is any different.

Nah, its not screwed. Euro is not plummeting and the economic is doing good for many EU nations, especially the new ones.

Chirac however, is royally screwed.

Minor set-backs. The EU will pick up its slow path to progress again soon.
I disagree with the economic outlook of the EU, they have a stable economy, and they aren't setting themselves up for failure in as many areas as most countries (Read infrastructure and disease).

I don't think they'll ever become a sole-super power, like the US is the only one today, but they will have strong influence.

My main beef is the fact that Europeans are stubborn and unproductive, so, they won't get anywhere great ;)

Really? :confused:

Yes such as preserving the small farm culture which, as much as I like it. Isnt a great way of feeding the millions and millions of people that France has.


How? I doubt the EU is going to crumble because of it. The EU has had similar set backs before an survived, I don't see why this is any different.

How??? How would it not, they dont know whats going to happen next, its a crises!

How??? How would it not, they dont know whats going to happen next, its a crises!

I'm sure the EU wasn't so concieted that it thought that France (not sure about the Netherlands) would vote "Yes."

I mean, even Wittier knew they would vote against it. ;)

It wasn't the most surprising thing to happen in European politics.

Even the French realize that French culture will not survive the onslaught of waves and waves of muslim, non-French speaking immigrants. I am not prejudiced, but it is natural for each culture to want to retain its unique identity.

The Euro is plummetting and countries in the EU have econemy's going down the drain
I haven't noticed the Euro Plummeting. Moving down maybe. Is this a problem? I don't recall any overall advantage when the Euro was going up. Sure it would be convenient if currencies didn't swing around so much, but oh well.
Europes population is plummeting downhill faster than ever before since the black plague
I think you'll notice a more rapid decline in Europe's population during World War One and Two.
Any time Europe wants they can boost their population. All they need to do is put out an invitation and immigrants will come. Europe is so good some people even come uninvited.
Plus the constitution was rejected which means more European instability.
I don't imagine any armies will march across the Rhine. I could be wrong on this. I'm sorry but I tend to laugh when people talk about instability in Europe. Check out the (not at all) Democratic Republic of the Congo. Now that's instability.

The EU constitution got sunk because of understandably unpopular plans to render subcontracting entities subject to the laws of their country of registration, rather than the country in which the work is carried out.

The decline in the value of the Euro is simply a predictable market reaction to this setback.

You make it sound like Europe is in a state of collapse, with survivors fighting packs of dogs roaming the streets. In fact, the most monumentally tedious legal document ever written has been placed under review, and the media has sensationalised it because no EU story will sell if it is not sexed-up.

I think you'll notice a more rapid decline in Europe's population during World War One and Two.
I forgot to mention the 1919 influenza epidemic, various cholera and typhoid epidemics and epidemics where we don't know what the disease was, but a lot of people died.

Actually, Europe's overall population is still increasing. Although if immigration doesn't pick up it will decline in the future.

The Euro is plummetting and countries in the EU have econemy's going down the drain

Its not down the drain, its just not got very high growth at the moment. And considering the global economic downturn I'm not suprised


Europes population is plummeting downhill faster than ever before since the black plague

I've seen a lot of American's say this, and none of them are accurate. Europes population is growing. Like every other part of the world. The diffrence is that in the last 20 years or so the rate of growth has been slowing down. It hasnt stoped by any means, and neither is there zero population growth.


And some countries like France are too afraid of progress.

Depends how you define progress. The French have one of the largest agricultural sectors in the western world (20% of their employment) and they veto all possible reforms of the CAP so as to ensure that it still keeps them going. Thats why they oppose Turkey joining as it also has a large farming base.

Discuss amongst yourselves. Keep in mind however...

The Euro is plummetting and countries in the EU have econemy's going down the drain
No, the Euro is being devalued to prevent the admission of the new Eastern states causing their economies to crash.

Europes population is plummeting downhill faster than ever before since the black plague
No, Europe is suffering a different problem - an aging population, not a decreasing one.

And some countries like France are too afraid of progress.
Compared to what? America? Sucks to be a theocracy scared of stem-cell research.
Plus the constitution was rejected which means more European instability.
Not really, it just means the new Eastern states will have to adopt slightly different economic laws until their integration is fully completed.

No, the Euro is being devalued to prevent the admission of the new Eastern states causing their economies to crash.

Er, yeah.

No, Europe is suffering a different problem - an aging population, not a decreasing one.

Check your birthrates. Decreasing European population. Rising immigrant population.

Compared to what? America? Sucks to be a theocracy scared of stem-cell research.

And yet still on the fore-front of Genetics, Medicine... hey. We're doing alright. We still can't figure out how to build a decent road though...

Not really, it just means the new Eastern states will have to adopt slightly different economic laws until their integration is fully completed.

Hmm, and that won't create divisive pressures?.

Europe is on the down hill end of its parabola rise to power. Just like the USA. Learn Chinese.

Check your birthrates. Decreasing European population. Rising immigrant population.
That's scary. A large immigrant population is what caused the destruction of the United States, Canada, and Paraguay. Of course, I could be jumping to conclusions.

I agree that the EU may be in a bit of a pickle (fact: The Euro has lost a small amount of it's value, so the first guy was a bit correct), but its not doomed. Of course, the French will always cause a problem for...well...any conference alliance thinger(as it has shown many times in the past), but eventually all the countries will reach and agreement.

Let's wait a few years, shall we?

<<Decreasing European population. Rising immigrant population.>>

And they will become European. Come to Leicester, we have a lot of immigrants here and they are all functioning members of british society and, IMO, they are a significant asset to our culture.

<<Europe is on the down hill end of its parabola rise to power>>

It fell a while back, in the early 1900s I think. It's just that we have held our decline up well.

As to learning Chinese, I was planning to sometime, I always did like the characters.

The decline in the value of the Euro is simply a predictable market reaction to this setback.

"But commentators have said that while the "No" votes from France and the Netherlands have not helped, the main reason for the currency's current lows was the recent string of interest rate rises in the US."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4602229.stm

Check your birthrates. Decreasing European population. Rising immigrant population.

Decreasing birth rates do not mean decreasing population. They simpley mean decreasing rate of growth of population, and thats the situation for most western countries including America

That's scary. A large immigrant population is what caused the destruction of the United States, Canada, and Paraguay. Of course, I could be jumping to conclusions.

DESTRUCTION OF THE UNITED STATES!?!?!?!??!

*breathes heavilly*

I think not! In fact, Immigrants helped the U.S. The Immigrants became good, hard-working Americans, who worked even harder then original Americans. It is because of THEM many of our monuments stand today. It is because of THEM that we are so rich.

(Just so you know, I am descendend from Polish and Syrian Immigrants, many of whom are STILL ALIVE. )

Decreasing birth rates do not mean decreasing population. They simpley mean decreasing rate of growth of population,

Germany

Birth rate: 8.33 births/1,000 population (2005 est.)
Death rate: 10.55 deaths/1,000 population (2005 est.)

France

Birth rate: 12.15 births/1,000 population (2005 est.)
Death rate: 9.08 deaths/1,000 population (2005 est.)

Finland

Birth rate: 10.5 births/1,000 population (2005 est.)
Death rate: 9.79 deaths/1,000 population (2005 est.)

Austria

Birth rate: 8.81 births/1,000 population (2005 est.)
Death rate: 9.7 deaths/1,000 population (2005 est.)



Picked Germany and France because they're the big economies. Finland and Austria at random. Might as well throw in the UK as another big one.

UK

Birth rate: 10.78 births/1,000 population (2005 est.)
Death rate: 10.18 deaths/1,000 population (2005 est.)

And the good ol USofA

Birth rate: 14.14 births/1,000 population (2005 est.)
Death rate: 8.25 deaths/1,000 population (2005 est.)




Note: Immigration rates in the European countries offset the death rate. However thats not exactly a good thing.

Um...I think that Phylum Chordata was saying the same thing, Lightning Star, although I may be wrong. I just added sarcasm to my reading of it. Anyway...

I don't think the EU is going to collapse, hopefully, thanks to our cousins in the Netherlands and those people we've been at war with 20 times, somebody will actually take the time to write a constiution that doesn't, you know, suck. Far too big and far too complicated.

I know a lot of Europeans worry about "National Identity" but I don't care about "national identity" at all. I care about local identity. As long as Lancashire stays pretty much the same (and its hard to imagine anything changing Lancashire, I mean, as soon as a city does change, we just boot it out and give it its own county - Merseyside & Greater Manchester) then I'll be happy whether we're a European SuperState or not.

Oh and for kicks here's the EU as a whole.

Birth rate: 10.1 births/1,000 population (July 2005 est.)
Death rate: 10.1 deaths/1,000 population (July 2005 est.)

That's really quite humorous.

Net migration rate: 1.5 migrant(s)/1,000 population (July 2005 est.)

Making for a population growth rate of 0.16% (July 2005 est.).

So, either get your people making more kids, kick up immigration or your population is in for a very slow growth. Might as well be standing still in fact. And standing still isn’t exactly a good way to prop up the pyramid scheme of socialism.

Note: Immigration rates in the European countries offset the death rate. However thats not exactly a good thing.
We need them. Whether we like them or not.

SNIP
Finland

Birth rate: 10.5 births/1,000 population (2005 est.)
Death rate: 9.79 deaths/1,000 population (2005 est.)


I'm guessing your stats are from CIA's World Factbook..?
I wonder sometimes where they pull those figures from. Statistics Finland (the communist bureau in charge of statistics here) reports the 2004 figures to be:
Birth rate: 11.0
Death rate: 9.1


The ten year trend suggests the birth rate is in rise and death rate is in decline. I'm scared now. What does the CIA think is going to happen here this year (if we are to believe their estimates). Now, I'm not saying that the CIA is wrong here - how could they be!?!

YIKES! CIA also predicts the population growth rate to be 0.16% this year. According to Stat Fi it was 3.2% last year... I wonder what kind of a disaster awaits us all... (good bye Helioterra... in case the end comes today)

EDIT: In case I'm misinterpreting those charts:
http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/taskue_vaesto.html#Vitalstatistics
I's the "Vital Statistics" chart I was reading.

Thats why they oppose Turkey joining as it also has a large farming base.
France doesn't oppose Turkey joining, unfortunatly. France with Germany, for the moment, are it's biggest supporters. Allthough that's probably going to change come the next elections in both countries.

YIKES! CIA also predicts the population growth rate to be 0.16% this year. According to Stat Fi it was 3.2% last year... I wonder what kind of a disaster awaits us all... (good bye Helioterra... in case the end comes today)

Oh no, what can we do! The CIA is after us. :(

I'll echo the Europeans here, the EU is not screwed-at least, not by the reasons given.

A more pointed look would ask if the EU might be in trouble due to its own success, though. Teh failiure of that rat-nest 'constitution' in France and the Nederlands is probably the best long-term event to have possibly come out at this time, it forces the leadership to actually do some thinking before submitting the next draft. The drop in the Euro was predictable as well-currencies fluctuate, no currency (not even Gold) holds its value perfectly.
There will be slight dips and rises.

I'mmigration can go two ways: way number one is useful folk who come in, and make things better over all.
This fits the description of the gent from Liecester in the U.K.

That's "Positive" immigration.

'Negative' immigration is when the Immigrants come in, and bring their problems with them, but no interest in solving those problems. Since we haven't heard much in the way of car-bombings or Fatwas being conducted in most of Europe (other than a few isolated incidents), this may not be an issue larger than any other organized crime problem. (the IRA, the Mafia...)

Oh, there will be an EU Constitution some day. It's just going to take 20 years, because the vote for approval has to be unanimous, and they're taking their time.

They can take their time. What's the rush? They already have a working framework for economic and political cooperation.

Yes, populations change over time - some European countries (but not all) will have majority Muslim populations within 20 years (France, Germany, and Spain, for starters).

We can't say whether or not that's going to be a problem at that time.

Discuss amongst yourselves. Keep in mind however...

The Euro is plummetting and countries in the EU have econemy's going down the drain
Oh no we might just have our currency around the same value as the US dollar our main trading partner (We're doomed![/sarcsm])

And the economies are going fine maybe not as well as people want.

Europes population is plummeting downhill faster than ever before since the black plague
No that's just wrong

Originally Posted by The Mindset
No, the Euro is being devalued to prevent the admission of the new Eastern states causing their economies to crash.
nope none of them have changed to euro. I'm pretty sure that we want the value of the euro to be near the dollar.

Yes, populations change over time - some European countries (but not all) will have majority Muslim populations within 20 years (France, Germany, and Spain, for starters).

I think thats a bit soon. Any figures to back that up?

I think thats a bit soon. Any figures to back that up?
The birth rate of the indigenous peoples of the European Union countries is now well below the replacement level of 2.1 children per woman. Without immigration, the EU’s population could drop by 100 million by 2075. In addition to declining in number, the EU population is aging, which means that fewer and fewer workers must support European retirement and welfare systems. As a result, EU governments have an enormous financial incentive to build up their work forces by taking in ever more immigrants.

At present, the population of the EU is approximately 5% Muslim; France is 10% Muslim. Leaving aside the possible admission of the countries with large Muslims populations like Turkey and Bulgaria, the Muslim proportion of the EU population will probably grow to 10% overall by 2020 if current trends continue. That assumes no real immigration increases - increases that are likely to occur.

If, however, the rate of immigration increases, the proportion of Muslims will rise significantly faster. Some observers believe that a surge in Muslim population may produce a Christian and Jewish flight from Europe.

You get the majority Muslim population if you do the last scenario.

I think thats a bit soon. Any figures to back that up?
I guess 40 000 000 Germans are going to turn to Islam.

edit: no, I just learned that they are going to move out of Europe.

Discuss amongst yourselves. Keep in mind however...

The Euro is plummetting and countries in the EU have econemy's going down the drain

Europes population is plummeting downhill faster than ever before since the black plague

And some countries like France are too afraid of progress.

Plus the constitution was rejected which means more European instability.


The euro is not plummetting, its went down a touch because France and the Netherlands rejected the constitution but its still stronger now than it was a few years ago. ...and its still stronger than the dollar.

Population plummetting? Thats just nonsence, 10 new countries joined the EU last year and more will follow. Unless there was a nuclear war nobody told me about I fail to see how the population could be plummeting...

France afraid of progress? A bit unfair that comment, I think the reason for them rejecting the constitution was mainly because the people feel dissatisfied with the EU, which is a problem...
I think the people of several EU countries feel the same. If the referendum had been held in the UK I think it would have been rejected also, not because of the content of the constitution but as a protest vote against the EU.

To say 'more instability' though is going a bit far. The EU will go on and more countries will join, but the idea of a federal Europe with a single government etc. looks unlikely.

I guess 40 000 000 Germans are going to turn to Islam.
No, the number of ethnic Germans is going to continue to decrease, because of the negative population growth. And due to aging, after 2020 the number of ethnic Germans is going to plummet.

All the while, Muslims will be immigrating, and having lots of children. So they'll outnumber the ethnic Germans.

Immigration has accounted for some 70% of the general population growth in the member states of the European Union over the past five years and the great majority of those who sought and seek a better life in Europe are Muslim. Given the scant prospects for a better future in the Arab world, that tendency will probably continue. Once established in Europe, Muslims have a far higher birthrate than the autochthonous European population. At present, estimates of the number of Muslims in the European Union range from between 12 to 20 million - which means that there are more Muslims in Europe than there are Norwegians, Swedes, Danes, Greeks, Czechs, and Hungarians. And the Muslim population, even if its birthrate continues to slacken somewhat (which it surely will), can only continue to grow.

In Great Britain Muslims now constitute the second largest religious community (larger than the Roman Catholics). In France it is estimated that the Muslim population probably numbers some 6 million, while there are those who claim the figure may actually be as high as 8 million. Significantly, Muslims constitute a half of teens and "20 something's" in Marseilles and throughout the Rhone-Alpes region. This is so much so, that jeunes "youth" has become a euphemism for Muslims. In fact, the percentage of Muslims in France exceeds that of African-Americans in the United States. One could certainly argue that France's racial problems are far more explosive than those of the US, especially given the fact that French Muslims have little or no political representation. Not one Muslim sits in France's 577-seat Chamber of Deputies.

Some observers believe that a surge in Muslim population may produce a Christian and Jewish flight from Europe.

LOL, who exactly are these observers.
Oh no muslim immigrants! RUN AWAY!

The birth rate of the indigenous peoples of the European Union countries is now well below the replacement level of 2.1 children per woman. Without immigration, the EU’s population could drop by 100 million by 2075. In addition to declining in number, the EU population is aging, which means that fewer and fewer workers must support European retirement and welfare systems. As a result, EU governments have an enormous financial incentive to build up their work forces by taking in ever more immigrants.

At present, the population of the EU is approximately 5% Muslim; France is 10% Muslim. Leaving aside the possible admission of the countries with large Muslims populations like Turkey and Bulgaria, the Muslim proportion of the EU population will probably grow to 10% overall by 2020 if current trends continue. That assumes no real immigration increases - increases that are likely to occur.

If, however, the rate of immigration increases, the proportion of Muslims will rise significantly faster. Some observers believe that a surge in Muslim population may produce a Christian and Jewish flight from Europe.

You get the majority Muslim population if you do the last scenario.

Ok, got your point, however I still think that it is going to be unlikely.

IMHO, Europe will stabilise more than recede, and trade will move east gradually, to where employment is cheaper as are the trade tarrifs. Just look at the European investment in places like Azerbaijan, the Balkans, Greece and Turkey just to mention a few. Because of this, I believe Europe won't need as many immigrants as some predictions say, but that the countries that the majority of immigrants come from will by then have developed sufficiently economically to not have so many leave.

In the Netherlands the number of Turks returning to Turkey is growing every year. :)

LOL, who exactly are these observers.
Oh no muslim immigrants! RUN AWAY!
One's ability to laugh at a problem is proportional to your distance from the problem.

I'm sure that if you were living in Marseilles, you would not be laughing. The ethnic French there are not laughing at all.

France has done some not-so-wise decicions in the past. Many immigrats are living in huge muslim only suburbs without any hope of work or education. They don't learn the language and never adopt (?) to French culture.

France has done some not-so-wise decicions in the past. Many immigrats are living in huge muslim only suburbs without any hope of work or education. They don't learn the language and never adopt (?) to French culture.
Yep. Time to clean those areas out and put them on the next boat back.

Some observers believe that a surge in Muslim population may produce a Christian and Jewish flight from Europe.

You get the majority Muslim population if you do the last scenario.

Well, those observers are wrong. Just because there are more muslims around does not mean that the Christians and Jews will flee. They have a better standard of life in Europe than they could expect anywhere else, so why should they flee.

And also, new SOCIALIST (yes thats right, its a good thing!) legislation in countries like France is boosting the birth rate, by 2050 France is preidcted to have the largest population in europe of 75 million. Birth rates in scandinavia are also rising because of government pro-family legislation.

France has done some not-so-wise decicions in the past. Many immigrats are living in huge muslim only suburbs without any hope of work or education. They don't learn the language and never adopt (?) to French culture.

Well, one might imagine that if in the future, the immigrants who do not assimilate become a majority, it will be the original native French who are forced to assimilate - in the other direction.

Yep. Time to clean those areas out and put them on the next boat back.
Oh yeah. That's the solution. not.

the world is getting over populated, and europe is a very good example of that. People in the Netherlands and Belgium are glad the the amount of people that live in Europe is going to decline, its about time. The world has not enough recources to support all the people in the world (look at africa). Yes ageing will be a big problem in europe, thats why all the EU countries are reforming the social laws so they can handle the large amount of old people. After the baby boom generation has died, the EU will have a very young population, and also a not to large population. A country like the Netherlands is strugling with there over population now, were at 16 milion people and people are everywere saying that the country is getting over populated, its expected to grow to 19 or 20 milion people before it will get smaller.

Well, those observers are wrong. Just because there are more muslims around does not mean that the Christians and Jews will flee. They have a better standard of life in Europe than they could expect anywhere else, so why should they flee.

And also, new SOCIALIST (yes thats right, its a good thing!) legislation in countries like France is boosting the birth rate, by 2050 France is preidcted to have the largest population in europe of 75 million. Birth rates in scandinavia are also rising because of government pro-family legislation.

I remember pro-family legislation in Germany in the 1980s. I remember women receiving financial benefits just for having children.

It had no effect on the birth rate. Governments learn over time that you can't pass legislation that increases the birth rate.

Oh yeah. That's the solution.
Yes it is.

I remember pro-family legislation in Germany in the 1980s. I remember women receiving financial benefits just for having children.

It had no effect on the birth rate. Governments learn over time that you can't pass legislation that increases the birth rate.
Sure you can. Mao did it and it worked. It's just that you have to do it properly. And not just on paper where it always looks good.

Yes it is.
How clever.

the world is getting over populated, and europe is a very good example of that. People in the Netherlands and Belgium are glad the the amount of people that live in Europe is going to decline, its about time. The world has not enough recources to support all the people in the world (look at africa). Yes ageing will be a big problem in europe, thats why all the EU countries are reforming the social laws so they can handle the large amount of old people. After the baby boom generation has died, the EU will have a very young population, and also a not to large population. A country like the Netherlands is strugling with there over population now, were at 16 milion people and people are everywere saying that the country is getting over populated, its expected to grow to 19 or 20 milion people before it will get smaller.

Thats a good point, but Europe is not overpopulated. Overpopulated is saying that there are more people than resources can handle, but Europe can handle the amount of people it has. It is places like Africa and South America where overpopulation is a problem.

Ageing will not be painless, the only way to get rid of the effect is to have more working age population, simple.

How clever.
Thank you. You contrtibution was also of the highest standards.

Sure you can. Mao did it and it worked. It's just that you have to do it properly. And not just on paper where it always looks good.

That was a program to reduce birth rates. You can't get people to do an increase just by passing legislation.

You have to force people to have children or you have to steal them. Even the Germans had to resort to Lebensborn.

Thats a good point, but Europe is not overpopulated. Overpopulated is saying that there are more people than resources can handle, but Europe can handle the amount of people it has. It is places like Africa and South America where overpopulation is a problem.

Because we use the resources of Africa and South America.

Because we use the resources of Africa and South America.

Tell me, would it be possible for Finland to be self-sufficient in food production?

I remember pro-family legislation in Germany in the 1980s. I remember women receiving financial benefits just for having children.

It had no effect on the birth rate. Governments learn over time that you can't pass legislation that increases the birth rate.

Oh yeah, go to this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2664041.stm)

Tell me, would it be possible for Finland to be self-sufficient in food production?
yes it is, the Netherlands are a small country compered to Finland, but we have 3 times there population, and we still produce more food then our people can eat. The EU as a whole has an big overproduction of food, countries get fines if they produce to much.

One's ability to laugh at a problem is proportional to your distance from the problem.

I'm sure that if you were living in Marseilles, you would not be laughing. The ethnic French there are not laughing at all.
If I saw it happening I would laugh harder.

Zeh muslim immigrants they are coming. Quick we must sell our homes and run make sure to bring zeh wine!
Why are we speaking zeh Anglais?




Well, one might imagine that if in the future, the immigrants who do not assimilate become a majority, it will be the original native French who are forced to assimilate - in the other direction.
Why? Immigrants won't be the ones previding the jobs, they will have to learn french to get the better jobs sure they'll keep some of their culture but they won't be (or be able) to force the french to change.

That was a program to reduce birth rates.

Umm, no it wasn't. we just learned about it for GCSE geography, Mao tried to get much higher birth rates to increase his population, he wanted Chinese to vastly outnumber americans (They already outnumbered Americans a lot though)

It is partly his fault that the one-child policy had to be introduced.

That was a program to reduce birth rates. You can't get people to do an increase just by passing legislation.
That wasn't Mao. Mao always said many children means many communists. The one child policy came in the 70's.

You have to force people to have children or you have to steal them. Even the Germans had to resort to Lebensborn.
Lebensborn was a home for single mothers. As well as an "adoption" center.
Many women nowadays have to choose between a career or children. And the governments are to incompetent holding on to old traditions to combine the two.

If I saw it happening I would laugh harder.

Zeh muslim immigrants they are coming. Quick we must sell our homes and run make sure to bring zeh wine!
Why are we speaking zeh Anglais?



too true :D :rolleyes:

Its so unfair, but i bet French people laugh at us.

Tell me, would it be possible for Finland to be self-sufficient in food production?
Yes. (I guess) We wouldn't be eating any (almost) fruits anymore. Wouldn't be any problems with meat, fish and dairy.

Yes. (I guess) We wouldn't be eating any (almost) fruits anymore. Wouldn't be any problems with meat, fish and dairy.

Well, stop eating fruit so you can stop feeling guilty about taking the resources of other nations.

Finland is big but almost empty. True Netherlands is much smaller but their climate is very different to ours. One has to remember that snow covers the ground 4-6 months a year.

France doesn't oppose Turkey joining, unfortunatly. France with Germany, for the moment, are it's biggest supporters. Allthough that's probably going to change come the next elections in both countries.

I dont know where you heard that but its just not true. The French government and the people have been the most ardent opponents of the Turkish entry to the EU because of the CAP. The farming base in Turkey is a simmilar size to France and so they will need more money. And where is that money going to come from? The subsidies that France and Ireland love so much are going to have to go down in size.

Well, stop eating fruit so you can stop feeling guilty about taking the resources of other nations.
I'm not feeling very quilty :)
We don't import much food from South America or Africa. But we do import oil, gas, clothes, wood, cars, computers, furniture etc etc
and of course, make a shitload of money in South American countries and bring it all back to Finland.

What would those countries do if we were all self-sufficient? No exports, no economy. Those guys don't have consumers like we do, they need our demand.

I'm not feeling very quilty :)
We don't import much food from South America or Africa. But we do import oil, gas, clothes, wood, cars, computers, furniture etc etc
and of course, make a shitload of money in South American countries and bring it all back to Finland.

Your original comment made it sound like we should all feel guilty for doing business with people who charge money for their products.

If we were down there just taking their resources that would be one thing. But we seem to be paying for them.

Besides, it would seem simple for you to take advantage of Norway's oil - I'm sure they've built you a pipeline.

Your original comment made it sound like we should all feel guilty for doing business with people who charge money for their products.

If we were down there just taking their resources that would be one thing. But we seem to be paying for them.

Besides, it would seem simple for you to take advantage of Norway's oil - I'm sure they've built you a pipeline.
Well we could be a little bit more fair while doing business in those countries. Like follow the rules we have made (WTO) and lift those embargos. I believe that we could make even more money if we could help those countries with their economies. More customers, you know.

Why deal with Norway. Those nice little fellas around Middle East (and don't forget the Russians) are much more fun to play with...To be honest I don't know where most of the oil comes from. I'm sure it comes from all over the globe.

Governments learn over time that you can't pass legislation that increases the birth rate.
Oh crap! How long do you think it will take? We have passed legislation aimed at increasing birth rates for many many decades here, and it seems to work just fine.

Family-oriented policies, aimed at supporting people in combining work and parenthood are aplenty here:

Maternity packages or cash benefits for pregnant women; Benefits awarded for each child born; The parental leave system which includes maternity, paternity and parental allowances for total period of 263 weekdays; Free day-care; Child allowances paid until a child reaches the age of 17; Healthcare taken care of; etc, etc, etc.

There are bound to be lots more, but unfortunately I'm quite ugly and lousy in bed... so I have no children and therefore not much knowledge about these things.

There are bound to be lots more, but unfortunately I'm quite ugly and lousy in bed... so I have no children and therefore not much knowledge about these things.
You're not increasing Finland's birthrate! Now, for the sake of your nation, find a fertile woman and start breeding!

me? ermmm...let's skip the subject
edit: krhmmm not "me?" as the fertile woman, "me?" as a -do you have any kids...

Ok Europe's indigenous population is decreasing - what's the big deal?

Globally aren't there too many of us anyway - why don't we secure good education and integrative immigration policies, and as well as targetting foreign aid for family planning centres and setting up health and education infrastructures in developing countries to aid demographic transition

That way the europeans will continue to slowly decline but with immigration the populations will be replenished, educated and not alienated (and therefore rife with social problems) and therefore provide the workforce to sustain the aging boom population.

Meanwhile the foreign policy can slow down population growth in developing countries as they develop and people have the health resources so they don't have to have 10 kids so one survives, and that they have pensions so that they don't have to have a big family to keep them when they are too old to work. Hopefully then these will all contribute toward more sustainable resource use and fairer trade...

..I dunno maybe the world as opposed to europe is screwed, but there are ways still of sorting ourselves out.

<< <<Oh no muslim immigrants! RUN AWAY!>>

One's ability to laugh at a problem is proportional to your distance from the problem.

I'm sure that if you were living in Marseilles, you would not be laughing. The ethnic French there are not laughing at all.>>

I live in Leicester. Just down the road, opposite the Anglican church is a big mosque. I'm laughing quite happily. I'm an ethnic minority where I live and I'm laughing.

Quite frankly, with the current EU laws on pay and working hours if the foreigners are coming here taking our jobs, what does it say for us?

<< <<Oh no muslim immigrants! RUN AWAY!>>

One's ability to laugh at a problem is proportional to your distance from the problem.

I'm sure that if you were living in Marseilles, you would not be laughing. The ethnic French there are not laughing at all.>>

I live in Leicester. Just down the road, opposite the Anglican church is a big mosque. I'm laughing quite happily. I'm an ethnic minority where I live and I'm laughing.

Quite frankly, with the current EU laws on pay and working hours if the foreigners are coming here taking our jobs, what does it say for us?

When you're finally outnumbered nationally, the UK government will be composed mostly of Muslims who will vote in the Sharia and that will be the end of the historical UK government.

That, and you'll be made to pay a tax because you're not a Muslim.

When you're finally outnumbered nationally, the UK government will be composed mostly of Muslims who will vote in the Sharia and that will be the end of the historical UK government.

That, and you'll be made to pay a tax because you're not a Muslim.


Um the general trend of immigration is that people go to get away from oppressive regimes.

Looking at one of the seminal speakers on the oppression of women under extremely harsh intrepretations of Islamic Law - Hersi Ali in the Netherlands - she's an immigrant!

Granted there are many problems with muslim populations in european countries - in the netherlands with their riots after Theo Van Gogh was shot nearly a year ago, in Germany with the Gästearbeiter, but integration can work with innovative and well funded social and immigration policies with proviso's to target ghettoism, illegal immigration, cultural adaptation - for instance i think if you emigrate to a country you should be required by law to learn the language, laws and a bit of the history of a country.

Um the general trend of immigration is that people go to get away from oppressive regimes.

Looking at one of the seminal speakers on the oppression of women under extremely harsh intrepretations of Islamic Law - Hersi Ali in the Netherlands - she's an immigrant!

Granted there are many problems with muslim populations in european countries - in the netherlands with their riots after Theo Van Gogh was shot nearly a year ago, in Germany with the Gästearbeiter, but integration can work with innovative and well funded social and immigration policies with proviso's to target ghettoism, illegal immigration, cultural adaptation - for instance i think if you emigrate to a country you should be required by law to learn the language, laws and a bit of the history of a country.

Yes, and we can see how well that's working in Marseilles.

ROME - Italy should consider leaving the single currency and reintroducing the lira, Welfare Minister Roberto Maroni said in a newspaper interview on Friday.

Maroni is a front-line government minister but his views are not believed to be shared by those with far greater sway over economic policy, such as Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi or Economy Minister Domenico Siniscalco.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8083117/

Two minutes of fame, or back-burner issue coming to the fore?

Death of European constitution surely isn't death of EU. I'm not suprised by french rejection, even though they used odd arguments [ "European constitution is too liberal! OMG! We're afraid to compete!" and their fear of "polish hydraulic"] because,there is a common belief that European integration is out of control,EU is integrating too fast for its citizens.

The constitution is dead- it will be rjected in Britain, Denmark,Czech Republic and probably in my conutry- Poland but some of its elements e.g. common foreign politics, will be introduced in other documents.

well it was...got pregnant and gave birth to new members!!!

ROME - Italy should consider leaving the single currency and reintroducing the lira, Welfare Minister Roberto Maroni said in a newspaper interview on Friday.

Maroni is a front-line government minister but his views are not believed to be shared by those with far greater sway over economic policy, such as Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi or Economy Minister Domenico Siniscalco.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8083117/

Two minutes of fame, or back-burner issue coming to the fore?
It can as well be a ruse, its aim being to weaken the euro a little bit more and to help eurozone exporters in such a way.

It can as well be a ruse, its aim being to weaken the euro a little bit more and to help eurozone exporters in such a way.

That's certainly possible, but then again, this is Italy.
My old pol-sci prof used to call it the "most democratic nation on Earth", since they've changed government about every 10 months since 1945... ;)

When you're finally outnumbered nationally, the UK government will be composed mostly of Muslims who will vote in the Sharia and that will be the end of the historical UK government.

That, and you'll be made to pay a tax because you're not a Muslim.

Sure, like they do in Indonesia or Malasia.


ROME - Italy should consider leaving the single currency and reintroducing the lira, Welfare Minister Roberto Maroni said in a newspaper interview on Friday.

Maroni is a front-line government minister but his views are not believed to be shared by those with far greater sway over economic policy, such as Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi or Economy Minister Domenico Siniscalco.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8083117/

Two minutes of fame, or back-burner issue coming to the fore?


Two minutes of fame. Is own goverment shot him out.

This edition of the EU constitution was bound for failure, the French think it was an anglo saxon plot to put them out of pocket, well Britain is still putting in net about £2.3 billion to europe, The constitution was written without any collaboration. It should be based on the US constitution, short concise and to the point, about 5 pages long, not going down to the eu standard of when bread becomes toast.

This edition of the EU constitution was bound for failure, the French think it was an anglo saxon plot to put them out of pocket, well Britain is still putting in net about £2.3 billion to europe, The constitution was written without any collaboration. It should be based on the US constitution, short concise and to the point, about 5 pages long, not going down to the eu standard of when bread becomes toast.

Why the US Constitution? Everyone in Europe thinks that America is a bad idea.

yes but that's because on a subconcious level they are jealous of america, the country that saved europ's butt in two world wars costing millions of american dead. and because america is an isolationist and reactionary country. ( i am british and proud of it but i know a good ally when i see one) and anyway the US constitution was written mostly by brits in the first place. it was simple and concise there is no need for more than 200 pages of legislation

I hope that the EU dissolves, as I see any int'l government organization as an intrusion on national soveriegnty....

I hope that the EU dissolves, as I see any int'l government organization as an intrusion on national soveriegnty....
Like the World Health Organisation (a UN body) which saved us from SARS a couple of years back. Evil. :rolleyes:

People are turning out right about the collapse of the EU though, today I had to eat out of the trash again. :p

Well shit, dont worry Europe. While you try to fingure out what the hell you guys are doing, we Americans will still protect you from your bad ideas

Like the World Health Organisation (a UN body) which saved us from SARS a couple of years back. Evil. :rolleyes:
Let's not thread-jack concerning the UN, shall we? It's best neither of us bring them up.... :)

yes but that's because on a subconcious level they are jealous of america, the country that saved europ's butt in two world wars costing millions of american dead. and because america is an isolationist and reactionary country. ( i am british and proud of it but i know a good ally when i see one) and anyway the US constitution was written mostly by brits in the first place. it was simple and concise there is no need for more than 200 pages of legislation

Good gods
The EU is not dissolving, the constitution will be ammended to compromise to the "no" countries and personally I'm glad as I think it's too liberal, and America didn't save Europe's "butt" A combination of allied and Russian forces did - seriously!
And who gives a flying **** anyways WW2 is serious history, and as the Czech foreign minister said Europe has had 50 year of stability and will have many more.
Flag-waving neo-con "euro skeptics" who live in the past piss me off - by jingo I think I may be talking about the above's queen and country? Seriously Britain has to accept that its time in the sun is over, it no longer has an empire and that it's being offered a sweet deal to be part of something far greater than it, so if it wants to keep looking a gift horse in the mouth, who am I to stop them, but if they think they'll have a say in world politics when China and the US decide to have an arms race to measure who's the most arrogant in their future race for the world's dwindling resources, they won't have a hope.

Rather be part of an organisation that can act as a global balancing power than be left in the dust still thinking of the glory years [/rant]

Good gods
The EU is not dissolving, the constitution will be ammended to compromise to the "no" countries and personally I'm glad as I think it's too liberal, and America didn't save Europe's "butt" A combination of allied and Russian forces did - seriously!
And who gives a flying **** anyways WW2 is serious history, and as the Czech foreign minister said Europe has had 50 year of stability and will have many more.
Flag-waving neo-con "euro skeptics" who live in the past piss me off - by jingo I think I may be talking about the above's queen and country? Seriously Britain has to accept that its time in the sun is over, it no longer has an empire and that it's being offered a sweet deal to be part of something far greater than it, so if it wants to keep looking a gift horse in the mouth, who am I to stop them, but if they think they'll have a say in world politics when China and the US decide to have an arms race to measure who's the most arrogant in their future race for the world's dwindling resources, they won't have a hope.

Rather be part of an organisation that can act as a global balancing power than be left in the dust still thinking of the glory years [/rant]

*applauds