NationStates Jolt Archive

Since this is graduation season and I'm certain there are many women out there looking for their 'next step' I thought I'd provide you this helpful piece from Warren Farrell.

http://www.warrenfarrell.com/

I found this article on Warren's website. Sadly, I cannot link directly to it. Rather than cut&paste MCULTRA style, I'll just share the central theme outlined in his innitial paragraph. If you want to see the complete article it is under the 'Article of the Month' tab under the same title as this thread.

"If you're getting paid less than a man, before you assume discrimination, look at the 25 things men are more likely to do to get paid more. Women tend to trade income for fulfillment, flexibility, family, and safety. Rather than focusing your binoculars on discrimination, focus them on opportunities, such as the more than 80 fields that pay women more than men, or the 39 large fields that pay women at least 5% more than men. Based on my research for Why Men Earn More, I believe that while men earn more for different work, women today earn more for the same work--when they work in the exact same job for the same type and size of firm, same number of hours, travel and relocate equally, produce equally, have equal years of experience, and so on.

Here are some of the fields he goes on to suggest;

Military
Pharmacists
Investment Banking and Financial Analysts
Venture Capitalist
Speech language pathologists
Statisticians (35% more than men)
Advertising and Promotions Managers
Motion Picture projectionists
start a construction company
dental hygienist
nursing, or being a medical assistant or physician assistant
Female sales engineers get paid 143% of male sales engineers

As you can see, there is a broad array of fields and requisite requirements to choose from.

Anyone moving on into any of these fields? Anyone going to investigate any of these idea or find he article helpful? Anyone more interested in pursuing family goals full time?

Please, share your thoughts.


Oh, and congrats grads!

Since this is graduation season and I'm certain there are many women out there looking for their 'next step' I thought I'd provide you this helpful piece from Warren Farrell.

http://www.warrenfarrell.com/

I found this article on Warren's website. Sadly, I cannot link directly to it. Rather than cut&paste MCULTRA style, I'll just share the central theme outlined in his innitial paragraph. If you want to see the complete article it is under the 'Article of the Month' tab under the same title as this thread.


Here are some of the fields he goes on to suggest;

Military
Pharmacists
Investment Banking and Financial Analysts
Venture Capitalist
Speech language pathologists
Statisticians (35% more than men)
Advertising and Promotions Managers
Motion Picture projectionists
start a construction company
dental hygienist
nursing, or being a medical assistant or physician assistant
Female sales engineers get paid 143% of male sales engineers

As you can see, there is a broad array of fields and requisite requirements to choose from.

Anyone moving on into any of these fields? Anyone going to investigate any of these idea or find he article helpful? Anyone more interested in pursuing family goals full time?

Please, share your thoughts.


Oh, and congrats grads!
My thoughts? Women should get paid the same as men in every field; I can't think of a single one where any one gender deserves any less money than the other.

ha. my take on the matter:

"Hey guys, women are paid less than men in some fields of work! However, we don't want to address this problem of gender discrimination, so we're going to completely overlook it and give them a few select areas that they can actually do well in, but not try to fix the roads that need flattening."


hm. smells bad.

ha. my take on the matter:

"Hey guys, women are paid less than men in some fields of work! However, we don't want to address this problem of gender discrimination, so we're going to completely overlook it and give them a few select areas that they can actually do well in, but not try to fix the roads that need flattening."


hm. smells bad.

Well, this source points out 25 cases where men earn more and offers a reasonable suggestion why. You don't even need to click the link to see that. Meanwhile there are over 80 cases where women earn more. Hardly seems like a select few.

Meanwhile, you can complain all you want, but the reality is that these opportunities are there for the taking. Were I a college graduate I would be seriously considering taking advantage of the opportunities which clearly exist.

My thoughts? Women should get paid the same as men in every field; I can't think of a single one where any one gender deserves any less money than the other.

Reasonable thoughts, presuming you also attribute similar experience and other circumstances as well - which I think you do.

Meanwhile, there is an abundance of fields where a woman has significantly more earning power than a man. Don't you think that until that changes a recent female graduate would be prudent to pursue those?

id recommend nursing to anyone who doesnt mind the idea of working with sick people. the pay is good and the flexibility is amazing. my sister currently makes $28/hour as a floor RN in florida. my neice works 3 days a week and get full time pay.

its a job that is in demand everywhere and you can actually raise a family while working full time.

Reasonable thoughts, presuming you also attribute similar experience and other circumstances as well - which I think you do.

Meanwhile, there is an abundance of fields where a woman has significantly more earning power than a man. Don't you think that until that changes a recent female graduate would be prudent to pursue those?
I personally wouldn't pursue a career just because I could make more money than the opposite gender. I would rather pursue a field that I naturally gravitated towards and struggle to overcome the gender discrimination attached to it. That may just be me and my unbelievably overwhelming desire to challenge myself.

id recommend nursing to anyone who doesnt mind the idea of working with sick people. the pay is good and the flexibility is amazing. my sister currently makes $28/hour as a floor RN in florida. my neice works 3 days a week and get full time pay.

its a job that is in demand everywhere and you can actually raise a family while working full time.


I agree. I have considered going to school for nursing.. but not sure I could stomach some of the things they have to deal with.

Edit: I should have worded it differently. I know I Could stomach it.. but not sure if I'd Want to.

Nurse... *shakes head* I'm sorry, but if I wanted to be a typical female stereotype, I'd become a "housewife" or "stay-at-home mom". That's not to say I wouldn't consider nursing if I had an interest in it, but more than likely, if I was interested in the medical field, I would go for the title of "doctor".

Reasonable thoughts, presuming you also attribute similar experience and other circumstances as well - which I think you do.

Meanwhile, there is an abundance of fields where a woman has significantly more earning power than a man. Don't you think that until that changes a recent female graduate would be prudent to pursue those?
Yes, because rather than break into fields where gender discrimination is prevalent, we should go take the path of least resistance.

And those fields suck pretty much. Besides, I'm pretty sure female strippers earn more than male strippers, ditto to prostitutes, that doesn't mean women should go into those professions simply because they can earn more than their male counterparts.

Yes, because rather than break into fields where gender discrimination is prevalent, we should go take the path of least resistance.

And those fields suck pretty much. Besides, I'm pretty sure female strippers earn more than male strippers, ditto to prostitutes, that doesn't mean women should go into those professions simply because they can earn more than their male counterparts.
Hey I am a stats major ... not ALL those positions suck (I may not have gone into it but was thinking about it lol) :p

Well, this source points out 25 cases where men earn more and offers a reasonable suggestion why. You don't even need to click the link to see that. Meanwhile there are over 80 cases where women earn more. Hardly seems like a select few.

Does he not examine the reasons in these cases? Could it, just maybe, be that many of these fields are those which women have been traditionally told were "appropriate" fields for them and thus there are more women with more years of experience in them?

Could the reason for higher pay in the military, just maybe, be that women are pretty much shifted into non-combat roles - which often actually pay more as they require specialization?

Meanwhile, you can complain all you want, but the reality is that these opportunities are there for the taking. Were I a college graduate I would be seriously considering taking advantage of the opportunities which clearly exist.

Yes, we should add to the established but completely unnecessary gender roles, rather than encouraging students to go into the field that they are interested in and feel that they could excel in. "No girls, you shouldn't go to med school! You should just be a nurse! That way, you'll be doing women's work and, on a statistical average that includes women who have been working at this all thier lives, your gender will be getting paid more!"

Nurse... *shakes head* I'm sorry, but if I wanted to be a typical female stereotype, I'd become a "housewife" or "stay-at-home mom". That's not to say I wouldn't consider nursing if I had an interest in it, but more than likely, if I was interested in the medical field, I would go for the title of "doctor".
As a stay at home mom and house wife, I hope you fall down and scrape your knee. Home makers aren't that typical. It takes two people commited to their family, two people who know how to budget money and one who can make enough to support every one. Not to mention the courage to tell a punk ass to go hell with conviction when they say "oh... you're a house wife"

If women want to make as much money as the men they work with they need to make the company as much money as the men. When a woman take maternity leave it costs her company money. When she stays home because little billy is sick it costs her company money. When you lose money for a company they will remember it when it's reveiw and raise time.

In which fields is gender discrimination prevalent?

As a stay at home mom and house wife, I hope you fall down and scrape your knee. Home makers aren't that typical. It takes two people commited to their family, two people who know how to budget money and one who can make enough to support every one. Not to mention the courage to tell a punk ass to go hell with conviction when they say "oh... you're a house wife"

If women want to make as much money as the men they work with they need to make the company as much money as the men. When a woman take maternity leave it costs her company money. When she stays home because little billy is sick it costs her company money. When you lose money for a company they will remember it when it's reveiw and raise time.

In which fields is gender discrimination prevalent?

? She was not trying to deride your choice she was saying IF she was restricted in the “stereotypical” female role she would much rather be a housewife

As a stay at home mom and house wife, I hope you fall down and scrape your knee. Home makers aren't that typical. It takes two people commited to their family, two people who know how to budget money and one who can make enough to support every one. Not to mention the courage to tell a punk ass to go hell with conviction when they say "oh... you're a house wife"

If women want to make as much money as the men they work with they need to make the company as much money as the men. When a woman take maternity leave it costs her company money. When she stays home because little billy is sick it costs her company money. When you lose money for a company they will remember it when it's reveiw and raise time.

In which fields is gender discrimination prevalent?
I wasn't trying to belittle housewifes or stay-at-home mom's at all. However, it is a stereotypical traditional female role.

I don't believe I was actually contradicting the second part of you post.

In which fields are gender discrimination prevalent? Are you really going to get me started on that? I could give examples, but I cannot help but wonder if you are the type that lives in denial of the discrimination that is entirely obvious and right in front of their face.

Hey I am a stats major ... not ALL those positions suck (I may not have gone into it but was thinking about it lol) :p
If I had actuary as the only option for my career, I would have to shoot myself in the head.

Nurse... *shakes head* I'm sorry, but if I wanted to be a typical female stereotype, I'd become a "housewife" or "stay-at-home mom". That's not to say I wouldn't consider nursing if I had an interest in it, but more than likely, if I was interested in the medical field, I would go for the title of "doctor".

Frankly, the title of 'doctor' isn't nearly worth it in terms of the intense amount of shit you have to go through, especially in the USA. The costs of being a doctor are quickly outweighing the benefits. It's becoming more and more an act of charity than a profession as time progresses due to malpractice insurance and HMOs. [Edit: If you're looking to make money, you're much better off as a nurse. If anything, you're going to be in a LOT less debt once you get a job] As a man, the title of 'nurse' may be emasculating, but the pay is awesome because of your mindset of nursing being only for women. As such, the demand for male nurses is exceptional. And in the military, they will pay hand over fist for ANY nurse.

And then we look at the field of engineering. I would say if there's one place where a smart and enterprising woman could make some mad bank, it would be in engineering. Just like you think that nursing is only for women, a lot of people think engineering is only for nerdy men. If I were a businessman, I'd rather have a product I were trying to sell pitched by someone with a little charisma and social skills beyond that of a brick of foam. As such, you can see that the figure that female sales engineers make 148% of what male sales engineers do is completely reasonable, and I wouldn't disagree with it one bit. Combine that with the fact that schools will shell out tons of money to a woman who wants to be an engineer because that's one of the fields that's so homogenous.

If I had actuary as the only option for my career, I would have to shoot myself in the head.
The network design end is all statistics ... but it is about stuff that is interesting (a LOT of regression)

As a stay at home mom and house wife, I hope you fall down and scrape your knee. Home makers aren't that typical. It takes two people commited to their family, two people who know how to budget money and one who can make enough to support every one. Not to mention the courage to tell a punk ass to go hell with conviction when they say "oh... you're a house wife"

If women want to make as much money as the men they work with they need to make the company as much money as the men. When a woman take maternity leave it costs her company money. When she stays home because little billy is sick it costs her company money. When you lose money for a company they will remember it when it's reveiw and raise time.
So when a woman doesn't take time off work to tend to her sick kids, what then?

Stop being a jerk. Ok? My mom is a housewife and since we were old enough to hold a broom we've been household helpers. I'm pretty sure she had kids as an excuse to sit about and spend my dad's money while forcing us to do all her housework for her.

In which fields is gender discrimination prevalent?
Hahahahaha.

If I had actuary as the only option for my career, I would have to shoot myself in the head.

If I had to be an actuary, I'd grin and bear it. I'd grin all the way to the bank. Actuaries are one of the most high in demand for occupations right now.

I wasn't trying to belittle housewifes or stay-at-home mom's at all. However, it is a stereotypical traditional female role.

I don't believe I was actually contradicting the second part of you post.

In which fields are gender discrimination prevalent? Are you really going to get me started on that? I could give examples, but I cannot help but wonder if you are the type that lives in denial of the discrimination that is entirely obvious and right in front of their face.

It might have been stereotypical 50 years ago, it isn't today. The second part of my post wasn't at you in aimed at in particular.

Why not give some examples and wonder about my intelligence or coping abilities at the same time. It's a sincere question.

In which fields is gender discrimination prevalent?

When she stays home because little billy is sick it costs her company money. When you lose money for a company they will remember it when it's reveiw and raise time.

Yes, and why is it that it is almost always mom who stays home because little Billy is sick? Could it, just possibly, be due to the fact that women are hedged into that role? Perhaps Dad should stay home when little Billy is sick sometimes, too?

If I had to be an actuary, I'd grin and bear it. I'd grin all the way to the bank. Actuaries are one of the most high in demand for occupations right now.
I dont' care about the money, I woudl be bored to tears every day.

So when a woman doesn't take time off work to tend to her sick kids, what then?

Stop being a jerk. Ok? My mom is a housewife and since we were old enough to hold a broom we've been household helpers. I'm pretty sure she had kids as an excuse to sit about and spend my dad's money while forcing us to do all her housework for her.


Hahahahaha.
that's too bad about your mother. Do you really think that all stay at home moms are that way?

It might have been stereotypical 50 years ago, it isn't today. The second part of my post wasn't at you in aimed at in particular.

Why not give some examples and wonder about my intelligence or coping abilities at the same time. It's a sincere question.

In which fields is gender discrimination prevalent?
I refuse to continue to argue your first point; I could, but we'd just go on and on infinitely and never get anywhere at all.

Off the top of my head, video game programming (the field I intend to get into) and sports. Give me a few seconds to think of some others.

that's too bad about your mother. Do you really think that all stay at home moms are that way?
No.

I know I would be bored to tears and feel damn useless if I was a stay at home mom. Even if my hypothetical husband was worth millions, I would work. However, my mom's being kinda selfish right now as my family's in debt (a lot of it is due to her remodelling of the house) and she doesn't have a job despite the fact that my youngest sister is 14 and can take care of herself.

Yes, and why is it that it is almost always mom who stays home because little Billy is sick? Could it, just possibly, be due to the fact that women are hedged into that role? Perhaps Dad should stay home when little Billy is sick sometimes, too?
Who's arguing that men can't take a more active role with their children? It's up to women to choose men who will help change those things.

No.

I know I would be bored to tears and feel damn useless if I was a stay at home mom. Even if my hypothetical husband was worth millions, I would work.
Ditto to that+a kiss for Dakini.

And then we look at the field of engineering. I would say if there's one place where a smart and enterprising woman could make some mad bank, it would be in engineering.

Not really. That is one of the fields that women are actually, statistically, paid less in. They also get less tenured positions and promotions. The situation is improving, but is still pretty far from equitable.

Of course, I was lucky to go to the school ranked 8th in the country for percentages of female students and female tenured and tenure-track professors in engineering. =)

Combine that with the fact that schools will shell out tons of money to a woman who wants to be an engineer because that's one of the fields that's so homogenous.

Really? Is that why I actually got less money than many male students whose grades, test scores, and activities were less desirable according to university standards?

I refuse to continue to argue your first point; I could, but we'd just go on and on infinitely and never get anywhere at all.

Off the top of my head, video game programming (the field I intend to get into) and sports. Give me a few seconds to think of some others.
Sweet a programmer! :)
(in networking course there are only 2 females in the whole major of 200 + officially signed up)

Who's arguing that men can't take a more active role with their children? It's up to women to choose men who will help change those things.

So there is no responsibility on the men to try to make things more equitable as well? (I know this isn't really what you are trying to say).

The point is that it is silly to use the "women stay home with their sick kids and that is why they get less money so it isn't a problem" argument. The fact that women stay home with their sick kids more often than the fathers is the underlying problem - and is one that should be corrected.

[snip]
Really? Is that why I actually got less money than many male students whose grades, test scores, and activities were less desirable according to university standards?
Ooh...

So there is no responsibility on the men to try to make things more equitable as well? (I know this isn't really what you are trying to say).

The point is that it is silly to use the "women stay home with their sick kids and that is why they get less money so it isn't a problem" argument. The fact that women stay home with their sick kids more often than the fathers is the underlying problem - and is one that should be corrected.
Don't have sex with men who won't help raise their children. I understand that you don't know for sure until there is a child to get sick. But you don'thave to keep having children with them. I had to leave one husband because he backed out of helping me. When i met my current husband I made sure he understood where I stand.

I refuse to continue to argue your first point; I could, but we'd just go on and on infinitely and never get anywhere at all.

Off the top of my head, video game programming (the field I intend to get into) and sports. Give me a few seconds to think of some others.
Sports, I have admit that's probably true. Sports has been a boy's club since time out of mind, sucks. But video games? The last I heard video game companies were desperate for programmer because programmers get snatched up by the military and companies like airlines to make flight simulators. If that's not true I'm curious how they are discriminating against women and how are they getting away with it.

Sports, I have admit that's probably true. Sports has been a boy's club since time out of mind, sucks. But video games? The last I heard video game companies were desperate for programmer because programmers get snatched up by the military and companies like airlines to make flight simulators. If that's not true I'm curious how they are discriminating against women and how are they getting away with it.
Pfft you kidding ... honestly programmers are a dime a dozen ... the only computer field MORE saturated is web site designers/developers

Sports, I have admit that's probably true. Sports has been a boy's club since time out of mind, sucks. But video games? The last I heard video game companies were desperate for programmer because programmers get snatched up by the military and companies like airlines to make flight simulators. If that's not true I'm curious how they are discriminating against women and how are they getting away with it.
Video game programming is considered a male-dominated field. Yes, currently, jobs are opening up for female programmers, but the general attitude towards girl gamers tends to be very, very negative. I am not yet in this field, but there are women on this forum who are. Would you like to hear their stories?

Video game programming is considered a male-dominated field. Yes, currently, jobs are opening up for female programmers, but the general attitude towards girl gamers tends to be very, very negative. I am not yet in this field, but there are women on this forum who are. Would you like to hear their stories?
I was lucky to work with a few great programmers in my time (female) its always a pleasure :)

Video game programming is considered a male-dominated field. Yes, currently, jobs are opening up for female programmers, but the general attitude towards girl gamers tends to be very, very negative. I am not yet in this field, but there are women on this forum who are. Would you like to hear their stories?
Yes I would. They should feel free to telegram me at The United States of Brizoa.

Pfft you kidding ... honestly programmers are a dime a dozen ... the only computer field MORE saturated is web site designers/developers
I didn't know that, though I think the last time I paid any attention it was an interview with the CEO of EA games. Maybe 5 years ago.

I didn't know that, though I think the last time I paid any attention it was an interview with the CEO of EA games. Maybe 5 years ago.
Yeah depends ... I do MORE into network programming but the whole Comp Sci Field is pretty flooded (I like network design better then I liked programming anyways)

Don't have sex with men who won't help raise their children. I understand that you don't know for sure until there is a child to get sick. But you don'thave to keep having children with them. I had to leave one husband because he backed out of helping me. When i met my current husband I made sure he understood where I stand.

Good for you! =) (I'm not being sarcastic here)

And I would hope that you both will then impart that sense of equity to your children and so on..... This is how the problem will get corrected.

Sports, I have admit that's probably true. Sports has been a boy's club since time out of mind, sucks. But video games? The last I heard video game companies were desperate for programmer because programmers get snatched up by the military and companies like airlines to make flight simulators. If that's not true I'm curious how they are discriminating against women and how are they getting away with it.

According to everyone I know in the programming field (a decent portion of the CS grads from Georgia Tech and few from other schools as well), video game design is, by far, the hardest area to get into.

Yeah depends ... I do MORE into network programming but the whole Comp Sci Field is pretty flooded (I like network design better then I liked programming anyways)

Yes, but do you stick to the network design and avoid GUI?

hehe

Not really. That is one of the fields that women are actually, statistically, paid less in. They also get less tenured positions and promotions. The situation is improving, but is still pretty far from equitable.

Of course, I was lucky to go to the school ranked 8th in the country for percentages of female students and female tenured and tenure-track professors in engineering. =)



Really? Is that why I actually got less money than many male students whose grades, test scores, and activities were less desirable according to university standards?

So if apparently women are getting paid so much less, I wonder which ass he grabbed that 148% from. Because that's what I was talking about in my post.

I guess you don't have the SWE at your school, or at least not as well funded at my former school. Also, are you taking into consideration financial need? Probably not. I got money because I was from a specific county in Ohio. Does that mean that I recieved preferential treatment because I was male? Hell no it didn't. I recieved a $6000 scholarship because the university felt that people that came from that area were more likely to drop out, move home and have children at the age of 19. It's worth noting that along with the 7 males who went to that school with me, the 10 females also recieved the same scholarship. The one woman who was in my freshman engineering class was on full scholarship. The only other people in that room who were on full scholarship were ROTC folks.

Did they apply for more scholarships than you? Do you actually know that they got more money? Are those students in Greek organizations? I know of one fraternity here on campus that hands out scholarships to practically everyone who goes to class. As far as I know, there are female-only scholarships, but if there were a male-only scholarship out there (excluding some military scholarships, such as NUPOC Submarine Option) they'd get sued seven ways from Sunday. Perhaps you should start an investigation into your school's financial aid policies and make them be held accountable for their obvious misogyny.

Yes, but do you stick to the network design and avoid GUI?

hehe
Ive done both but I love networking :)

So if apparently women are getting paid so much less, I wonder which ass he grabbed that 148% from. Because that's what I was talking about in my post.

The 148% (which I haven't seen a reference for) was a very specific subset of engineering. I was referring to the entirety of engineering.

I guess you don't have the SWE at your school, or at least not as well funded at my former school.

Actually, we did. I was a member. Eventually, I got money from them too (not that they restrict it to girls only).

Also, are you taking into consideration financial need?

Yup.

Did they apply for more scholarships than you?

Nope.

Do you actually know that they got more money?

Yup.

Are those students in Greek organizations?

Yup, but I was referring to original aid starting out as a freshman.

Perhaps you should start an investigation into your school's financial aid policies and make them be held accountable for their obvious misogyny.

I wasn't claiming misogyny. In fact, I don't think it occurred. I was simply pointing out that the "Hey girls, apply to engineering and they'll throw money at you," was pretty much bull.

I am incredibly sick of getting the "You only got X because you're a girl!" BS.

id recommend nursing to anyone who doesnt mind the idea of working with sick people. the pay is good and the flexibility is amazing. my sister currently makes $28/hour as a floor RN in florida. my neice works 3 days a week and get full time pay.

its a job that is in demand everywhere and you can actually raise a family while working full time.

I guess it all depends where you are. A good friend of mine is a nurse in an NHS hospital in the UK. She does not get paid *nearly* enough for what she does. She has had to go part time as she was becoming seriously ill with stress, and has also developed back problems as a direct result of her job. She has been assaulted physically on a number of occasions, and verbal abuse seems to be the norm. She works in extremely stressful conditions, and I wouldn't use the word 'flexible' to describe her hours. Even going part time hasn't completely solved her problems, with the added bonus that in order to pay her mortgage she has to have a second job anyway.

I am all for encouraging more people to go into nursing (gods' know we need them!), but describing it as just, 'working with sick people' isn't the half of it.
I would go into detail, but some of you might be eating. The number of harrowing stories I have heard beggars belief.

Better pay for Nurses!

Blessings
Cyber

Apart from stop being a Woman...

I am incredibly sick of getting the "You only got X because you're a girl!" BS.

You're 'incredibly sick of it' well too bad. It happens to have a good deal more truth to it than any of this 'I'm a woman, I won't be paid as much and men just want to oppress me' bullshit. And hey I can throw in some personal examples of where I've seen women get options men didn't get simply because they're women. But personal examples don't mean shit anyway because the sample size is far to small.

And uh Cyber. In the US there is a nursing shortage and you can become a nurse with 2 years at a junior college. It is one the highest paying/least training jobs in the United States.

Video game programming is considered a male-dominated field. Yes, currently, jobs are opening up for female programmers, but the general attitude towards girl gamers tends to be very, very negative. I am not yet in this field, but there are women on this forum who are. Would you like to hear their stories?
Yes.
Pfft you kidding ... honestly programmers are a dime a dozen ... the only computer field MORE saturated is web site designers/developers
Actually there is a global shortage of programmers, in Ireland we need at least 8000 more right now.
The problem is that we need good programmers, which are not being produced by our colleges due to sheer stupidity.

And uh Cyber. In the US there is a nursing shortage and you can become a nurse with 2 years at a junior college. It is one the highest paying/least training jobs in the United States.

As I said, it must depend on where you are. I can't remember the minimum training time for nurses in the UK, but it is more than 2 years. And, like I said, in the UK, nurses *don't* get paid enough. Unfortunately, if all the nurses in the UK moved to the US to be rich nurses, we would have a few problems over here.

Blessings
Cyber

Yes.

Actually there is a global shortage of programmers, in Ireland we need at least 8000 more right now.
The problem is that we need good programmers, which are not being produced by our colleges due to sheer stupidity.
Then call over here cause we have a MASSIVE amount of un inployed programmers over here
Luckily I am a true network guy besides programmer and went back to school and got a masters in comp networking design and another one in computer information security (plenty of jobs for me)

Then call over here cause we have a MASSIVE amount of un inployed programmers over here
Luckily I am a true network guy besides programmer and went back to school and got a masters in comp networking design and another one in computer information security (plenty of jobs for me)
Please Note: (with added emphasis)

Actually there is a global shortage of programmers, in Ireland we need at least 8000 more right now.
The problem is that we need good programmers, which are not being produced by our colleges due to sheer stupidity.
I have worked with other students at college who quite simply couldn't program,(I had to do entire projects on my own and then share credit) yet who consistently scored higher in exams and obtained better overall results than I did. They simply memorised and repeated what the lecturer had said.
Out of curiousity, how big a problem do you think that is in the US?

Please Note: (with added emphasis)

I have worked with other students at college who quite simply couldn't program,(I had to do entire projects on my own and then share credit) yet who consistently scored higher in exams and obtained better overall results than I did. They simply memorised and repeated what the lecturer had said.
Out of curiousity, how big a problem do you think that is in the US?
I also am talking GOOD programmers … right now I think it is just because of a shift (a lot of the big companies are shifting offices over to India)

But things ARE settling down … bout 3 years a go it was much worse

But the market is still saturated … but less so

While this topic and virtually every topic related to civil liberties and equity is worthy of discussion, I think it is important to realize that the world will never be perfect and that some inequities will always exist. We should always strive to be better as individuals and as the groups with which we identify, but our progress should not be at the expense of others.

Fairness is relative, as is equity. Nothing will ever be equal, we must strive for equity. Women, in general, will always be better than men, in general, in some things. The inverse is also true. We must work together to provide opportunities for both men and women to succeed in the occupations and activities in which they excel. I grant that there are always exceptions to things and that there are some people who differ from the norm, therefore we must also make allowances for those people who do not conform to common beliefs and standards.

If we simply provide opportunities that are equitable and are open-minded enough to accept the exceptions then other problems will fade to the background. :fluffle:

-The Rogue Nation of Suant

I also am talking GOOD programmers … right now I think it is just because of a shift (a lot of the big companies are shifting offices over to India) <snip>
I recently read that they are regretting that decision. Apparently the code generated is, shall we say, not quite up to scratch?

Nurse... *shakes head* I'm sorry, but if I wanted to be a typical female stereotype, I'd become a "housewife" or "stay-at-home mom". That's not to say I wouldn't consider nursing if I had an interest in it, but more than likely, if I was interested in the medical field, I would go for the title of "doctor".


This is possibly the most offensive comment I've read in these forums, and that says a lot. Doctors and nurses perform radically different functions. Doctors treat illnesses; nurses care for patients. In a hospital setting, the doctor's number one priority is taking care of the physical problem; the nurse is concerned with caring for the person. While in the grand scheme of things the doctor "outranks" the nurse, comparing their job functions is a particularly bad idea. Many doctors carry such an egotistical view of the world, but the truly good doctors would never be so condescending.

I truly hope I never walk into your MD office.

(Oh, I'm not a nurse. I'm an accountant. My mother isn't a nurse. Nobody I love is a nurse. One of my closest friends is a pediatrician.)

I recently read that they are regretting that decision. Apparently the code generated is, shall we say, not quite up to scratch?
Its alright but its hard to make the changed when (and everyone in the software industry knows that WILL have to have changes) they find flaws or want to add new features

What on earth is a 'Sales Engineer'? What has 'sales' got to do with engineering?

This is possibly the most offensive comment I've read in these forums, and that says a lot. Doctors and nurses perform radically different functions. Doctors treat illnesses; nurses care for patients. In a hospital setting, the doctor's number one priority is taking care of the physical problem; the nurse is concerned with caring for the person. While in the grand scheme of things the doctor "outranks" the nurse, comparing their job functions is a particularly bad idea. Many doctors carry such an egotistical view of the world, but the truly good doctors would never be so condescending.

I truly hope I never walk into your MD office.

(Oh, I'm not a nurse. I'm an accountant. My mother isn't a nurse. Nobody I love is a nurse. One of my closest friends is a pediatrician.)
Um she was not deriding the nursing profession?
She was saying
“I don’t want to be a nurse … if I was shoved into staying in the “female” stereotypical job I would choose something else “

Your explanation of what a nurse is , is all good and fine but she said she did not have an interest in NURSING

I honestly don’t see how that is offensive … maybe you want to re read it

(and this is coming from someone’s who’s mother AND brother are nurses)

My thoughts? Women should get paid the same as men in every field; I can't think of a single one where any one gender deserves any less money than the other.

I've seen the women sales engineers make more - a lot more - because they close more deals for more money.

If you're being paid on commission, that's how it works. And a pretty woman ALWAYS closes more deals when dealing with male OR female customers than any man.

Um she was not deriding the nursing profession?
I honestly don’t see how that is offensive … maybe you want to re read it

(and this is coming from someone’s who’s mother AND brother are nurses)

Um, she said:
That's not to say I wouldn't consider nursing if I had an interest in it, but more than likely, if I was interested in the medical field, I would go for the title of "doctor".

(emphasis added) To me that says "I'm too good to be a nurse. I'd only be a doctor."

Just found out what a 'sales engineer' is. It's someone not good enough to be the engineer but can sell it.

Um, she said:


(emphasis added) To me that says "I'm too good to be a nurse. I'd only be a doctor."
And to me it means in context that “I have no interest in the medical field in general and even less in nursing … if I WERE to be forced in the medical field doctor is more appealing of job to me”

To take so much offense to something this ambiguous is kind of silly

Just found out what a 'sales engineer' is. It's someone not good enough to be the engineer but can sell it.
And usually makes far, far more than the engineer.

You're 'incredibly sick of it' well too bad. It happens to have a good deal more truth to it than any of this 'I'm a woman, I won't be paid as much and men just want to oppress me' bullshit.

(a) I have never said that men just want to oppress me. Most discrimination these days is from ingrained societal stereotypes, not from an active wish to keep things that way. And, as I have pointed out, things are already getting better in my field.

(b) I have never received anything in school or work just because I am female, and I would have thrown it back in someone's face if I had. I can definitely say that I earned my place in college, the scholarships I got, the fellowship I currently have, and all of my grades.

Nurse... *shakes head* I'm sorry, but if I wanted to be a typical female stereotype, I'd become a "housewife" or "stay-at-home mom". That's not to say I wouldn't consider nursing if I had an interest in it, but more than likely, if I was interested in the medical field, I would go for the title of "doctor".

all i know is that my sister didnt even go to college (my neice did) and she made over $80k as a nurse last year.

you can be a nurse in 2 years 4 years if you go the college route. IF you can get into medical school you have 4 years of college, 4 years of med school 2 years internship, a variable number of years as a resident.

THEN you might set yourself up as a private practioner or maybe youll be in an HMO as a salaried employee. you have to build a practice, build a reputation, if you are in private practice you have to manage a small business with a substantial number of employees dependant on YOU for their living.

THEN maybe you can get a personal life

if i were choosing, id go for nursing or physical therapy. radiation tech if i didnt like to deal closely with patients. with these fields you get a good job AND a personal life.

all i know is that my sister didnt even go to college (my neice did) and she made over $80k as a nurse last year.

you can be a nurse in 2 years 4 years if you go the college route. IF you can get into medical school you have 4 years of college, 4 years of med school 2 years internship, a variable number of years as a resident.

THEN you might set yourself up as a private practioner or maybe youll be in an HMO as a salaried employee. you have to build a practice, build a reputation, if you are in private practice you have to manage a small business with a substantial number of employees dependant on YOU for their living.

THEN maybe you can get a personal life

if i were choosing, id go for nursing or physical therapy. radiation tech if i didnt like to deal closely with patients. with these fields you get a good job AND a personal life.


She had to have gone to at least a 2 year for lpn (at least in the US ) right?
But I think she was saying she had no intrest in nursing ... it was not about the money

I guess it all depends where you are. A good friend of mine is a nurse in an NHS hospital in the UK. She does not get paid *nearly* enough for what she does. She has had to go part time as she was becoming seriously ill with stress, and has also developed back problems as a direct result of her job. She has been assaulted physically on a number of occasions, and verbal abuse seems to be the norm. She works in extremely stressful conditions, and I wouldn't use the word 'flexible' to describe her hours. Even going part time hasn't completely solved her problems, with the added bonus that in order to pay her mortgage she has to have a second job anyway.

I am all for encouraging more people to go into nursing (gods' know we need them!), but describing it as just, 'working with sick people' isn't the half of it.
I would go into detail, but some of you might be eating. The number of harrowing stories I have heard beggars belief.

Better pay for Nurses!

Blessings
Cyber
i dont suppose she has considered moving to the US? she could live utterly anywhere she wanted to in this country, make enough to live on with regular "full time" work (which can mean 3 12 hour days) and she wont have to work in horrorshow inner city hospitals unless she prefers that.

nurses are exempt for the visa lottery, they are taken in as needed workers.

and yes, its more than just "sick people" but there are different kinds of nursing jobs so a person can avoid the stuff they find the most disgusting. (the nurse on the heart transplant team spends very little time wiping people's bums)

She had to have gone to at least a 2 year for lpn (at least in the US ) right?
But I think she was saying she had no intrest in nursing ... it was not about the money
she went to a one year lpn program then later a 18month hospital run RN program. i think those programs have been phazed out though and you have to at least do 2 years in community college now

yeah but she dissed nursing. its certainly not a job for everyone, but if one is interested in the medical field it should be a top consideration. to suggest that it is "less" because its a woman's field it extremely shortsighted.

Just found out what a 'sales engineer' is. It's someone not good enough to be the engineer but can sell it.

Have you ever done an internship at an actual engineering firm? A lot of what 'the engineer' does isn't that terribly difficult compared to what they make you think in school. "Complete redesign" more like "Bore that one hole another 1/32 of an inch and measure the increase in flow." That's part of why I dropped engineering and went to the Navy. If I'm going to spend four years of my life working my ass off in college, I want to be able to say that I had a fulfilling and complete experience in my first job instead of rotting my ass off looking at someone else's work.

At least a sales engineer has something difficult to do every time he/she shows up at work. Sell a product to someone else, knowing that the complete redesign from last year's model doesn't actually make it any better. It's even harder when the customer knows that.

she went to a one year lpn program then later a 18month hospital run RN program. i think those programs have been phazed out though and you have to at least do 2 years in community college now

yeah but she dissed nursing. its certainly not a job for everyone, but if one is interested in the medical field it should be a top consideration. to suggest that it is "less" because its a woman's field it extremely shortsighted.
But I did not get that from the post

I got the feeling she was more saying “if I was limited to the traditional “female” jobs nursing would not be my choice … stay home mom would … and if I was restricted to the medical field it would be doctor over nurse”

I've seen the women sales engineers make more - a lot more - because they close more deals for more money.

If you're being paid on commission, that's how it works. And a pretty woman ALWAYS closes more deals when dealing with male OR female customers than any man.
Please don't tell me sales engineer is akin go sanitation engineer in that it's just a salesperson with a fancy title just as sanitation engineer is just garbageman with a fancy title.

Please don't tell me sales engineer is akin go sanitation engineer in that it's just a salesperson with a fancy title just as sanitation engineer is just garbageman with a fancy title.

Yes, indeed.

I've seen software written by men and women - then a separate group of "sales engineers" who look better than they can think sell the product.

9 out of 10 of the top ranking "sales engineers" will be extremely attractive young women.

On average, at one company I worked for, all of the female sales engineers made more than anyone else in the company except the CEO.

Video game programming is considered a male-dominated field. Yes, currently, jobs are opening up for female programmers, but the general attitude towards girl gamers tends to be very, very negative. I am not yet in this field, but there are women on this forum who are. Would you like to hear their stories?

I think it would make for a very interesting thread. You should start it.

Um she was not deriding the nursing profession?
She was saying
“I don’t want to be a nurse … if I was shoved into staying in the “female” stereotypical job I would choose something else “

Your explanation of what a nurse is , is all good and fine but she said she did not have an interest in NURSING

I honestly don’t see how that is offensive … maybe you want to re read it

(and this is coming from someone’s who’s mother AND brother are nurses)


Nurse... *shakes head* I'm sorry, but if I wanted to be a typical female stereotype, I'd become a "housewife" or "stay-at-home mom". That's not to say I wouldn't consider nursing if I had an interest in it, but more than likely, if I was interested in the medical field, I would go for the title of "doctor

*shakes head*
Sparky, Um, nope, it pretty much is a dig against housewives, nurses and 'typical female stereotypes'. Unless you consider it an honor to be called a typical stereotype. She then implies nursing to be 'beneath' her as undesireable compared to the 'title' of doctor...

Considering I am the son of a nurse administrator and married to an RN (who is currently a housewife but is re-entering the workforce part time next week) I do find the complete assertation very offensive at all levels.

What on earth is a 'Sales Engineer'? What has 'sales' got to do with engineering?

Umm, you actually read the first post?? What are you , NUTS!!???

Don't tell me you then went and read the linked article also? That would make you a complete weirdo on this thread!!

Sorry, sarcasm is not directed at you, it is directed at the many many many lazy folks who have posted here without actually reading the referenced material. They are very easy to pick out by their silly 'observations' of things not even part of the article or post. Those few who actually read the article and responded intelligently are appreciated, regardless of their opinion.

I appreciate your question and have absolutely no idea what a Sales Engineer does. I'm just pleased to see someone who took the time to read through and 'grok' the intent of my original post.

Just found out what a 'sales engineer' is. It's someone not good enough to be the engineer but can sell it.


LOL - I thought those were called "professors of engineering."


Actually, sales is a skillset which is seperate from engineering. There is listening skills, empathy, charisma and negotiations. Many of these traits would not be associated within the conventional skill set / talents of an engineer.

I still have no idea what a sales engineer does, but your post likely does them no service.

Does he not examine the reasons in these cases?
Why don't you read it and see.

Could it, just maybe, be that many of these fields are those which women have been traditionally told were "appropriate" fields for them and thus there are more women with more years of experience in them?
You consider all of these to be traditionally female roles?
Military
Pharmacists
Investment Banking and Financial Analysts
Venture Capitalist
Speech language pathologists
Statisticians (35% more than men)
Advertising and Promotions Managers
Motion Picture projectionists
start a construction company
dental hygienist
nursing, or being a medical assistant or physician assistant
Female sales engineers get paid 143% of male sales engineers.


Could the reason for higher pay in the military, just maybe, be that women are pretty much shifted into non-combat roles - which often actually pay more as they require specialization?

no.


Yes, we should add to the established but completely unnecessary gender roles, rather than encouraging students to go into the field that they are interested in and feel that they could excel in. "No girls, you shouldn't go to med school! You should just be a nurse! That way, you'll be doing women's work and, on a statistical average that includes women who have been working at this all thier lives, your gender will be getting paid more!"

Your entire premise is wrong because your assumption that these were all stereotypical 'woman's' jobs is grossly incorrect. I would suggest you read a post before blindly critisizing what you 'think' it might say. It would also be prudent to read a referenced article when provided. It could spare you further embarrasing misteps.

Yes, because rather than break into fields where gender discrimination is prevalent, we should go take the path of least resistance.

And those fields suck pretty much. Besides, I'm pretty sure female strippers earn more than male strippers, ditto to prostitutes, that doesn't mean women should go into those professions simply because they can earn more than their male counterparts.

Sparky,

Are you sure you want to tell every military member, Pharmacist, Investment Banker, Financial Analysts, Venture Capitalist, Speech language pathologists, Statisticians, Advertising and Promotions Manager, Motion Picture projectionists, construction engineer/entrepreneur, dental hygienist, nurse, medical assistant or physician assistant, and sales engineers that "their field pretty much sucks" .

Maybe you'd like to make a list of jobs which 'don't suck' so those folks can quit their careers and find someething you view more favoraby?

You consider all of these to be traditionally female roles?

Many != all At least, last time I checked, many didn't mean all. Maybe you are speaking new English?

no.

So you are disputing the fact that most women in the military are pushed into non-combat roles? Remember, of course, that women are still denied any type of front-line combat, and there is now talk of banning them from all roles that [/b]might[/b] see combat.

Your entire premise is wrong because your assumption that these were all stereotypical 'woman's' jobs is grossly incorrect. I would suggest you read a post before blindly critisizing what you 'think' it might say. It would also be prudent to read a referenced article when provided. It could spare you further embarrasing misteps.

I would suggest that you read a post before blindly critisizing what you think it might say. Not mistaking the word many for the word all might be a good step. It could spare you further embarrasing missteps.