NationStates Jolt Archive

So, whats the best thing about our armed forces? The men, the technology, the arament, the attitude. Vote and if its not listed, then tell me. I like our intel and infantry the most and for you military freaks out there, here's the future of our G.I.s.

http://www.natick.army.mil/soldier/index.htm

Please do not comment on how stupid the U.S. military is. The question is what is the best part of the U.S. military; a question that could be validly asked about any country's military to find out what people think are its strengths and weaknesses.

the fact that fewer and fewer people want to join it.

moded!

I'm sorry - but where's the option : -

It doesn't - the US Military should be disbanded immediately and the Commander-in-Chief (yes, that means you Dubya, and bring good ol' Daddy with you for good measure) put on trial for Crimes against Humanity

?

We spend over 400 billion on defence. The last time I checked, the Cold War was over. I say none of the above.

The profound and life-changing life skills it bestows on the young men and women who volunteer to serve.

There is no need to hold the military responsible for the actions of its leaders. They went willingly into the fight because they were told the same outrageous lies the rest of us were. Once engaged, leaving the country to its own devices would have represented compounding a mistake with a greater one.

This is also why the military is seeing fewer volunteers. It's the natural consequence when the leadership betrays the trust of its soldiers. If Bush and company were leading from the field, they would have been fragged years ago.

But man... we've got some really cool toys.

Hard to say--the whole things been busted up pretty good over the last three years. Morale is down, recruitment is down, basic equipment like trucks and Humvees are broken down and in need of repair or replacement, guard and reserve units have had their equipment raided for service in Iraq to the point where they don't have it to train with any more, much less to ship out with when they get called up.

We do have some pretty stealth bombers, though. Maybe that's the best remaining part of it--wonder how those do against IEDs?

Let us just face it. The time of US might is nearly over. Time for China to rule... please let me be in hiding by that time...

I'd say technological superiority, but that's only because right now everyone with the best technology is on our side. When the vast Chinese monolith rises to its rightful place and inevitably crushes the United States and the United States alone, it seems to someone like me, with no extensive knowledge of military tactics, that logistics and supply lines (and perhaps morale in that specific senario) would become decisive.

Let us just face it. The time of US might is nearly over. Time for China to rule... please let me be in hiding by that time...

Man, am I glad you posted one minute before I did.

The fact that, despite the protestations of the Left and Europe at how "evil" it is, USian young people STILL volunteer for our military - both Active and Reserve.

I wonder why they have to be conscripted virtually everywhere else? I guess young people elsewhere don't believe that, in the balance, their countries (or geopolitical interests) are worth defending.

(Disclaimer: this is not a position advocating interventionisim. This statement is based solely on the position that you cannot have local defenders if you don't have soldiers. Ours are totally voluntary. Volunteers trump conscripts everywhere it's tried.)

Uh... firepower? I really don't know. *censored*

I wouldn't hold my breath on that China thing. The current morale/recruitment problem is correctable, and likely will reverse within the next few years (specifically, November 2008). The Chinese have 50 years of technology to catch up on. They're barely past the stage the US was at when we whooped them in Korea.

I wonder why they have to be conscripted virtually everywhere else? I guess young people elsewhere don't believe that, in the balance, their countries (or geopolitical interests) are worth defending.

Doesn't the US offer the best incentives for joining? I'd guess that a lot of people that join the military are thinking 'college money' when they sign up.

China will win. It's not a matter of if, it's when.

They are many. They are loyal. They are smart. They are industrious. And they are patient. They have waited for eons, and will do so until the Western world has destroyed itself. Then the Chinese Empire will bloom again and embrace the world in its arms.

Brush up on your Mandarin.

Hell, I know our time is over, but I will still join the military. I have always wanted to serve my country.

Hard to say--the whole things been busted up pretty good over the last three years. Morale is down, recruitment is down, basic equipment like trucks and Humvees are broken down and in need of repair or replacement, guard and reserve units have had their equipment raided for service in Iraq to the point where they don't have it to train with any more, much less to ship out with when they get called up.

We do have some pretty stealth bombers, though. Maybe that's the best remaining part of it--wonder how those do against IEDs?

In case you missed the last, oh, eleven years of legislation running through Congress, the U.S. military has been on the decline for far more than three years. We're still the best, though. We've got numbers, technology, and lots of nukes.

China will win. It's not a matter of if, it's when.

They are many. They are loyal. They are smart. They are industrious. And they are patient. They have waited for eons, and will do so until the Western world has destroyed itself. Then the Chinese Empire will bloom again and embrace the world in its arms.

Brush up on your Mandarin.

They've got all that and they've also got absolutely no way of ever reaching even Hawaii without being put on the bottom.

The modern disparity in naval power in the world is something that not even Britian at its height had. The Royal Navy, at least, had rivals. The USN has force projection abilities an order of magnitude greater than any other in the world. The rest of the world's combined navy is still smaller. It is simple fact.

I think that it shines all around, but the reason we kick so much arse is our technology. Not one other army is as well equipped as us. Yes, there are some that are ever so close, such as Great Britain, but none are just as good. Our training isn't the best(it's good, but not the best), but we have numbers(600,000 is pretty large), the best Airforce(arguable, I know, but NOT ONE other airforce could beat ours. The RAF may have better training, the Chinese may have numbers, but we are better all around), one of the Best Navies(the other contenders are Russia and the U.K. China has the worst navy EVER!)

Sure, in 50 or so years, may beat us in war, but then we will all be dead or old. But just because the Chinese get stronger doesn't mean we'll be weak. Unless our nation is destroyed and enslaved, the U.S. just has too many reasources and men to never be important.

As a Canadian pacifist (I'll die for my nation, but I won't kill for my nation) I can't offer much of an informed opinion on the state of the US Military. But I can comment on one of the option: "Coordination between branches and General Staff". I have a lot friends in the reserves as well as a friend in thje Princess Pats (light infantry) and they all say the same thing: When dealing with US Militarty personnel in any kind of training or operation, the US soldiers they talk to all say the same thing: Communication and co-ordination of the US Military would be much better if it adopted a UNified Arms Services approach similar to Canada's. Apparently each branch has its own way of doing things and its own peculiar com. equipment. This cause all kinds of problems when communicating from one branch to another, say, the Navy to the Air Force.

So why doesn't the US integrate its armed forces? Is there just too much politcs invovlved for it to work?

Bah, China cheats to succeed... it's no fair... they're communist, yet they sell everything from absinthe to twelve-year-old girls.

So many foolish thoughts so little time:

It doesn't - the US Military should be disbanded immediately and the Commander-in-Chief (yes, that means you Dubya, and bring good ol' Daddy with you for good measure) put on trial for Crimes against Humanity

Yeah, and all the terrorist regimes that sponsor the beheadings of Christians and Jews and suicide bombings don't deserve to be tried for "Crimes against Humanity". Where is the outrage against them? The truth is the US is attempting to figh the War on Terror as humanely as possible ( a mistake in my opinion but a fact none the less). By the way the international court sure made Milosevic pay didn't they. ;)

We spend over 400 billion on defence. The last time I checked, the Cold War was over. I say none of the above.

Brilliant, I'm sure the terrorists are just going to role over and die as soon as we do that. :rolleyes:

I'd say technological superiority, but that's only because right now everyone with the best technology is on our side. When the vast Chinese monolith rises to its rightful place and inevitably crushes the United States and the United States alone, it seems to someone like me, with no extensive knowledge of military tactics, that logistics and supply lines (and, perhaps, morale in that specific senario) would become decisive.

:eek:You seriously believe that China will only crush the US? By the very nature of their form of government they will move to dominate the world. First Asia and then everything else. The whole world should be concerned and very afraid, especially Australia. As it stands the US is the only hope against their special form of tyranny, yet you seem to hope that we lose. Truly twisted.

By the way nice thread Saudban. Its unfortunate that it was jacked by a bunch of anti-US, shortsighted buffons. I voted all around. :D The fact is that the US military has done more to further the causes of peace and freedom worldwide than anything else ever has.

Ok seriously why is it that every single thread about the U.S. is completly side tracked by idiots who are under the impression that either A.) Everyone in the U.S. is bad or B.) Everyone in the U.S. is stupid?

When people talk about America why is it that the only things that get brought up is all of the mistakes and bad things that we have done? Why doesn't the media and rest of the world even mention all of the good things that we've done?

If the general public was informed of these good things then perhaps they would realize how good America is at its core. Perhaps they would see what most Americans want them to see. That deep down most Americans want the world to be a better place.

Just because our nation as a whole has mad some mistakes doesn't mean that we should automatically be critized for them and none of our good deeds throughout the world ignored.

I ask everyone. Where would Europe be right now if it wasn't for America's help during both World War I and II. Where would Europe be right now if it wasn't for America standing up against the U.S.S.R.? Where would it be if America hadn't stepped in on hundreds of seperate cases? I'll tell you where it would either A.) be controlled by a psycho dictator or B.) be in complete anarchy and countries that we now consider third world would be more powerful and stable than them. That's where Europe would be if it wasn't for the past deeds of America.

As for Iraq. Millions of its respectable citizens now have freedom of speech, of press, of assembly, just every freedom in general because of the American and other allied forces that came and liberated them from Suddam. These soldiers, my dad being one of them, have allowed these people to live thier lives to the fulliest, to live the same lives, with the same freedoms that many of us living in America or England or France or many other countries through out the world enjoy.

Was the reasons President Bush and the rest of the government for going to war in Iraq true. Perhaps not but even if Iraq never once possesed weapons in thier history there still stands another good reason for having a regime change there. That reason is because of the millions of peoples lives that we have now liberated.

People say that Iraq will never be stable, that there is no progress being made. Yet there is as we speak a brand new constitution and government being established, as we speak millions of people in the Middle East are living thier lives, thier protesting, thier assembling, thier fighting for what they believe in. This is something that many of them have never been able to do.

So once again I ask why every time the U.S. gets mentioned everyone including some Americans completly insult everything to do with America? I would like someone to name a country that has done half as many good things that the U.S. has done for the world that the U.S. hasn't also had a part in. Actually I take that back because I know that many will simply start naming off random things that other countries have done and say that they are better than what the U.S. has done and that America sucks. I know that will happen because everyone arguing against what I am saying can never admit they were wrong. They can't see the other person's point of view. People say that Americans are cocky and stupid. Yet everyone else in the world thinks that they are better than us yet they have no proff to back this up.

Anyways I'm done ranting about this for now untill somebody decides to argue with me about this.

I'd also like to say that it is completly true that China's military as it stands right now will never be able to come any where near America.

Thx guys for standing up for our great country, but now I want a crack at it, so if u don't mind....

Alrite, if you're going to talk about China, please do it in another thread. Anyway....

So China's going to whoop our butt huh? Give me some stats and sources then I'll consider you're argument. You sound like some kid that decided to capitalize on what he found in some video game or what he learned last week in class. Not a good idea if you know anything about intel or history.

Please tell me how China would plan on beating the U.S. since your not considering everything going on in the world that doesn't exactly contribute to the "Great Chinese War Machine" or GCWM (mocking the CCCP as a 4 letter acronym).

First you have to deal the Russia and India right next door. China isn't exactly a country with a developed Navy so I wouldn't think of them being able to wage an expansionist war like Japan in WW2. Yes China does have a nuclear program that could pose some sort of miniscule threat, but please, they have missile technology comparable to the Germans (remember, that they only made it into space about a year and a half ago whereas the Germans did it first in the world in 1942 with the A-4 rocket).

Secondly, what would China use for quality supply lines. Yes they have the most massive army on Earth, but as we all learned after the Korean War, scraping up to make ends meet doesn't work (the Chinese Government was further backed to follow communism since there were shortages throughout the whole country throughout the conflict and have lead to a depression explaining China's poor Per capita GDP of today [ www.cia.gov ] ). China has plenty of natural resources, but it will be a few centuries IF they enable democratic principles in order to develop the ability to acquire those resources. For starters, China has NO STRATEGIC OIL RESERVES WHATSOEVER so enforcing an expansionist policy would result in an immediate cessation of mobilization months into the effort.

Third, what makes you so confident that China is going to be the world's leader in cultural and economic development that would excuse China to go to war with the USA. We don't have any intent to wage war with China and China's largest issue with us deals with Taiwan; something being resolved due to American condemning of Taiwanese rocket programs and revolutionary groups fighting for a "complete release from Chinese tyranny." [ www.wn.com ] Chinese industry is also far from developed as there are tons more accidents that occur in factories daily due to the lack of safety equipment and quality operating standards, just look at their automobile industry. Sure they're expected to surpass Germany's total industrial output in 5 years, but the cars sell for less than $3000 and are horrendous vehicles to drive. IMF studies have shown how 25% of all Chinese cars are lemons (no it didn't conduct the studies but it did sponsor them and back-up the results).

I'm sorry, but I don't see any possibility of China INITIATING any endeavor to beat down the incredible United States of America. Unless a meteor lands in Washington or Mexico gets invaded because fascists (don't bother w/ Pres G.W. Bush and co; they're getting more liberal by the minute in foreign relations) decide to do something about the immigration epidemic and humanitarian aid is pleaded for, there's no chance in a 1000 years for China to defeat our great land of the free and home of the brave. After a millennium.... eh maybe, but by then, we might have a world government. Then and again, we might not and there might be WW3.

They're barely past the stage the US was at when we whooped them in Korea.

excuse me?

why is N. Korea still a communist country? China... so how could that mean we whooped them?

(if yours was a sarcastic statement, pls disregard this post as my sarcasm meter is broken)

I'd also like to say that it is completly true that China's military as it stands right now will never be able to come any where near America.

Do you have a crystal ball? Do empires never fall? Are you telling a tale thats tall? Sorry got caught up in teh rhyme.

As of this moment China could send us into a great depression if they so chose. This is due to their heavy investment in our currency I believe.

Also, I think that China has some of the best hackers right now and if our militaries equipment is all networked, that could cause give some militarry hackers a good edge if we aren't secure enough. I am not tryign to say that China will one day be stronger than the US, I am just saying that anythign is possible and it is rather short-sighted and silly to think that the US will be the top dog forever and nothing can ever change that.

Ok seriously why is it that every single thread about the U.S. is completly side tracked by idiots who are under the impression that either A.) Everyone in the U.S. is bad or B.) Everyone in the U.S. is stupid?


that's because ppl around the world think we aren't culturally(sp) aware of other countries, geographically speaking, and about customs and the way other countries operate.

People from other countries come to study in the US and then see how 90% of the college students act, so that's their representation of Americans and so they believe we're stupid and selfish. (all just because geographically we're nowhere near the amount of countries they are so we don't know all the capitals or cities or locations on the map of said countries and our education doesn't dwell on it too much)

This is speaking from experience.

The profound and life-changing life skills it bestows on the young men and women who volunteer to serve.

I agree. Because of his Army training, my brother can now tail cars going 75 on the highway to about a foot.

I agree. Because of his Army training, my brother can now tail cars going 75 on the highway to about a foot.


I think being a dominatrix gives you the same ability. My friend does the exact same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicania
I'd also like to say that it is completly true that China's military as it stands right now will never be able to come any where near America.



Do you have a crystal ball? Do empires never fall? Are you telling a tale thats tall? Sorry got caught up in teh rhyme.

As of this moment China could send us into a great depression if they so chose. This is due to their heavy investment in our currency I believe.

Also, I think that China has some of the best hackers right now and if our militaries equipment is all networked, that could cause give some militarry hackers a good edge if we aren't secure enough. I am not tryign to say that China will one day be stronger than the US, I am just saying that anythign is possible and it is rather short-sighted and silly to think that the US will be the top dog forever and nothing can ever change that.

I'm sorry but did I ever once mention anything about economics?

No, what I said was that China would never be able to reach America and do anything to it militarily. Also yes China does hold a great amount of American investments but American investors also hold a great amount in China.

The US military is nowhere near the best, at all.

In the recent Iraq War, more British troops died through friendly fire incidents than from enemy gunfire. The US army seemed to get a kick out of blowing up British tanks, helicopters and fighter craft, and shooting our soldiers too.

In fact it is the British Army that is widely heralded for being the best. The Israeli army is also well thought of, and it should be - we trained them :P

ha..i'd like to see that statistic

:eek:You seriously believe that China will only crush the US?

I was picking on all the Americans that predict doomsday for the United States and conveniently forget to mention what would happen to the rest of the western world and Asia in the event of such a war.

In the recent Iraq War, more British troops died through friendly fire incidents than from enemy gunfire. The US army seemed to get a kick out of blowing up British tanks, helicopters and fighter craft, and shooting our soldiers too.

Shoot, we've kept the secret for 60 years, too. Yeah, we actually just ask you to join our wars so we can take potshots at your boys. It's retribution for you oppression before our revolution or something.

In fact it is the British Army that is widely heralded for being the best. The Israeli army is also well thought of, and it should be - we trained them :P

You're right, that must be why we had to bail your ass out of World War I and World War II, and that must be why we came about as a direct result of kicking your ass.

In all fairness, you did burn down the White House. But you still wouldn't exist today if not for us.

I'm sorry but did I ever once mention anything about economics?

No, what I said was that China would never be able to reach America and do anything to it militarily. Also yes China does hold a great amount of American investments but American investors also hold a great amount in China.


I wasn't talking directly to you but as you seem to think the the US will be around forever and ever it was directed to you as well. Plus I might want to mention to you that if you fuck with a countries economic power I'm sure you affect the military negatively too. I am just trying to open your eyes to US weaknesses as you don't seem to think we have any. Nothing is fool-proof. There are always ways to get around something. If it was built it can be dissasembled. Your arrogance about the US military is kind of frightening, because I bet most warmongers in the power feel the exact same way.

Plus you completely disregarded my point about hackers. If some 12 year old kid can hack a sattelite and put it out of commission for a a day then I'm sure if professional hackers reallyw anted to they could do a lot worse militarily.

So China's going to whoop our butt huh? Give me some stats and sources then I'll consider you're argument.

I hear they're going to swim across the Pacific. What they do when they reach Los Angeles is confidential, but it'll involve the tanks they dragged there for sure. Failing that, they're going to cram their military into crates on a barge and sneak into the United States through our harbors. Their military will pose as illegal immigrants so we'll leave them alone until they can position themselves outside state capitals and the national capital and take over. Citizens of our country will just sort of take it, despite being armed to the teeth.

You're right, that must be why we had to bail your ass out of World War I and World War II, and that must be why we came about as a direct result of kicking your ass.

In all fairness, you did burn down the White House. But you still wouldn't exist today if not for us.
yea we would

we probably would have eventually won WW1 anyway, it would just have taken longer. and we were doing a pretty good job of not being invaded in WW2.

blah

I hear they're going to swim across the Pacific. What they do when they reach Los Angeles is confidential, but it'll involve the tanks they dragged there for sure. Failing that, they're going to cram their military into crates on a barge and sneak into the United States through our harbors. Their military will pose as illegal immigrants so we'll leave them alone until they can position themselves outside state capitals and the national capital and take over. Citizens of our country will just sort of take it, despite being armed to the teeth.

Just because they don't have the means to project their power now doesn't mean they're incapable of developing the means.

Bail us out of the world wars? If you're not in the fight at the start, you're not in the fight at all son! ;) jk

The US has the biggest army in the world, but us brits have the best army in the world :)

China has the potential to rule, but if it continues to be communist and executing people who question policies (Daily Mail 4th June 2005), then they will never get the kind of people to fight that the US can draw upon - people who actually want to fight.

Not to mention that communism sucks big hairy balls.

Despite being from the UK, im trying to get a green card and join the US Air Force. Why? Because they have the best career prospects in the world for people who actually want to serve.....and more toys :D

So, whats the best thing about our armed forces? The men, the technology, the arament, the attitude. Vote and if its not listed, then tell me. I like our intel and infantry the most and for you military freaks out there, here's the future of our G.I.s.

http://www.natick.army.mil/soldier/index.htm

Please do not comment on how stupid the U.S. military is. The question is what is the best part of the U.S. military; a question that could be validly asked about any country's military to find out what people think are its strengths and weaknesses.
The best thing the U.S. military has going for it is I haven't been drafted for it. I would betray our country's greatest secrets for a nickel and a scoop of Baskin-Robbins chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream. Actually, for nothing.

I am just trying to open your eyes to US weaknesses as you don't seem to think we have any. Nothing is fool-proof. There are always ways to get around something. If it was built it can be dissasembled. Your arrogance about the US military is kind of frightening, because I bet most warmongers in the power feel the exact same way.

O I'm sorry I didn't realize that you are also one of those complete morons that doubt your own countries abilities.

People like you need to be taken to a far off island and then have the island wiped off of the face of the earth with nukes.

O I'm sorry I didn't realize that you are also one of those complete morons that doubt your own countries abilities.

People like you need to be taken to a far off island and then have the island wiped off of the face of the earth with nukes.


lol - don't get mad just because you have a hard time admitting when you are wrong. :fluffle:

Alrite, if you're going to talk about China, please do it in another thread. Anyway....
...
(POST ON CHINESE MILITARY)


LOL funny :D

I think however that you're forgetting the nuclear and economic sides. Were China to obtain complete military supremacy over their neighbors, there wouldn't be much we could do to contain them. They could simply threaten to dump US currency into the open market, as we did with the UK and France 50 years ago, and effectively extort anything from us. They could also threaten to land two dozen nukes on South Korea, Japan, or any of our other allies to obtain the same results.

The only reason China hasn't turned their backs on us yet is because they don't want to lose economic access to the richest nation in the world. Were they to find some other market for their goods, or were ours to become less attractive, there'd be no incentive for them to listen to us.

Of course I doubt China would go to war with Russia or India since they are also armed with nukes and have both said they'd use them in a defensive military conflict. Other nations would be fair game though.

O I'm sorry I didn't realize that you are also one of those complete morons that doubt your own countries abilities.
oh dear

People like you need to be taken to a far off island and then have the island wiped off of the face of the earth with nukes.
hmm...

China will win. It's not a matter of if, it's when.

They are many. They are loyal. They are smart. They are industrious. And they are patient. They have waited for eons, and will do so until the Western world has destroyed itself. Then the Chinese Empire will bloom again and embrace the world in its arms.

Brush up on your Mandarin.

Nukes. We both have them. So what exactly will they win, a melted slag of rock floating in space?

Just because they don't have the means to project their power now doesn't mean they're incapable of developing the means.

Can the west, or even just the United States, keep up with their navy? Probably.

In war now and in the future, number of people will matter for little. Technology, machines, chemicals and biologics of destruction and the means and will to use them will determine winners of war. So, I fear China no more than any other powerful nation.
Now, economically they are rising to power and really that is warfare.

Hmmm... Seems like we need a resource on current Chinese military development.

http://www.sinodefence.com/. I'll just throw this in here. Sure, it's unofficial, but, really now. Would the Chinese Government really tell everyone?

The US has the most, because we spend the most. If you want to match the US, match our economy first. (Side note: I just happen to be Chinese, and living in America. So, if they do end up fighting, which would suck for both sides, I'm not too sure what I'd do...)

Anyway, the rest, I think you guys have covered.

In war now and in the future, number of people will matter for little. Technology, machines, chemicals and biologics of destruction and the means and will to use them will determine winners of war. So, I fear China no more than any other powerful nation.
Now, economically they are rising to power and really that is warfare.

Well... economically their nation is growing pretty damn fast, or the government is, but their citizens still don't make shit - GDP per capita is about 5600 - and I would guess that most of the citizens are real happy with the situation. [sarcastic post script] Don't even show me a poll of happy Chinamen, they probably fix them anyway - they are commies, after all. [/sarcasm]

Here's another useful website on the chinese military.

http://www.comw.org/cmp/fulltext/cafgenissue.html

""Well... economically their nation is growing pretty damn fast, or the government is, but their citizens still don't make shit - GDP per capita is about 5600 - and I would guess that most of the citizens are real happy with the situation. [sarcastic post script] Don't even show me a poll of happy Chinamen, they probably fix them anyway - they are commies, after all. [/sarcasm] ""



First of all, they're not commies. Not really anyways. They have a market economy. And since when does GDP determine military ability? Plus you forget, these people are indoctrinated since birth with loyalty to China.

I would like to take this oppurtunity to address certain posts made here against the United States military. While I know that is not part of the thread it is necessary to address.

400 Billion Military Budget - Yes. We have a large military budget. Guess what? The cold war might be over, but that doesn't make the world a safe place. You think that China would just leave us alone if we just disbanded our military and sold everything for scrap? I don't think so. In addition our Military has been suffering from multiple cutbacks. In fact, if we needed to attempt another Normandy-type landing, we would not have the forces to perform the operation. The United States is no longer equipped to fight a global war. In fact, we're equipped to fight multiple regional conflicts instead.

NATO - Yes, let's talk about NATO. France opposes US Military build up. France opposes us going to War. France thinks US should disarm...all while enjoying the Protection the US Military and all 400 billion dollars of it's budget provide. Not to mention whatever benefits they get from having US Ships put into port or maintain whatever limited presence we might have in their country. And one more thing, did anyone ELSE read the news articles about the stockpiles of French-based Technology the US Troops found in Iraq? I think they were NVG's, but I'm not sure. So everyone from France can shut up, you bunch of hypocrites.

All Volunteer - That's right, any and all attempts at scaring American citizens into thinking there is a draft are just ridiculous. People who serve in the United States military do so because they want to. Not because they have to, or need to. They sign up to join because they want to serve their country in the military. Very few - if any - other nations can claim this about their own military. While recruitment may be down, I would not argue that morale is. Everyone I have talked to in the Military feels very good about what they have done, or are still doing.

I would argue that the succes of the United States Military, and the best thing about is not that they have an all volunteer force, or the most advanced technology, or good leadership, or a good relationship with their government.

The best thing, the best thing about the United States Military is that they have the entire package, and the right combination of things, and the right order and efficiency to put it all together in such a manner that when they do they dominate the globe.

There's no comparison for that. It's the sum of it's parts that makes the US military so great, not anyone part of it.

I don't think the US military is that good. The only thing they have going for them is the amount of money they have, really. In the most recent wars they've been in, friendly fire rates have been outrageously high, and even in IraQ, which was dominated by what we saw, there was a moral victory claim for Saddam as it was one of the longest wars the area had seen in the past decade.
The only element you could argue succesfully for is the air force. Few other countries have that many planes and are as willing to use them. Every plan they've used has been incredibly reliant on use of air advantage, dating back to Vietnam. This is only what I know, but hey.
In comparison, the Australian army is incredibly well trained, is also made up of volunteers (but unlike the US, poor people can go to uni, so that's no the reason) and in recent war games have done fairly well. I just read the newspapers, so i may be wrong, but Aus has a pretty good military considering how much we don't really need it.
And about terrorism? Spy agencies are infinitley better equiped to deal with them than the military, so any argument linking the two is dubious.

You must be British, Austrailian, or Canadian. I'd bet on Canadian.

I've got a little news flash for you: FRIENDLY FIRE HAPPENS. You will never be able to eliminate the Fog of War from the battle field, and no battle will ever happen without friendly fire happening. With X amount of bullets going off in X amount of miles, it stands to ground that some of them are going to miss, or fall on the wrong target. You'd better get used to it.

It's a stupid thing to criticize the American Military for, since it happens with every military in the world. Don't believe me? Better go check. Just because American's friendly fire accidents are publicized doesn't mean anything. It just means American happens to be the biggest target, and incidently enough, that it happens more with Americans because Americans are doing more across the world in combat hotspots.

There were many European built devices found in iraq. The NVG's that you mentioned, as well as german chemical protection suits and gas masks (why order them if you dont have chemical weapons....which are defined as weapons of mass destruction....). Also, in the first gulf war, the israelis airstriked (pilots including the first israeli astronaut with NASA who died in the last shuttle accident) a dubious complex in Iraq. When inspectors went in, it turned out to be a nuclear power station. With no wires to supply power. And no electricity generating subsystems. And with VERY dubious extraneous buildings dotted around it including storage hangers. The most mysterious thing of all was that amongst the dead were the bodies of 7 french nuclear engineers.

To this day, france has still not commented.

Zeal is probably the biggest thing the military has going for it. No matter how shitty things get you can always fall back guys like this, and his 'patriotism':

O I'm sorry I didn't realize that you are also one of those complete morons that doubt your own countries abilities.

IDF is the most gangstafied military on earth. They would -embarrass- any other military. Why? Because they have something to fight for. They know that if their few fail, Israel is lost. That's motivation an American fighting some vague notion of a 'terrorist' will never have.

Nukes. We both have them. So what exactly will they win, a melted slag of rock floating in space?
how true.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.
- Albert Einstein

I agree. Because of his Army training, my brother can now tail cars going 75 on the highway to about a foot.
Oh good, your brother can drive so close to other cars that if they have to brake suddenly occupents of both cars will die. Good reason to join the military that [/sarcasm]

Britain? Best army in the world?

Riiiight, I'll remember that when in a few years the former EU countries start killing themselves off again and we have to go save them again.

Everything the UK has is basically from the US (technology,) and we have the manpower to roll them over. I would rate the UK 3rd, behind Russia.

China... China can't fight a war far beyond their own shores, and it doesn't look like they'll be able to for a long time.

A small nuclear war will NOT kill everyone on Earth. All that comes from the media that hates ANYTHING to do with nuclear ANYTHING. That's the reason we hear so much about nuclear power plants being bad. Those would be the same people that want to keep us hooked on middle east oil for the rest of the century.

It would take an energy discharge about 1,000 times stronger than the most powerful nuke ever tested to kill everything, btw.

yea we would

we probably would have eventually won WW1 anyway, it would just have taken longer. and we were doing a pretty good job of not being invaded in WW2.

blah




actually you were'nt in WWII. Before and During the Battle of Britain, Britain was very short on supplies. Yes the RAF 1400 piolets with, i think, 700 fighter planes fought back the germans, but only because we gave you supplies. All through out the battle for britain American ships delivered vital war supplies because of The Lend-Lease Act; which allowed us to lend goods to countries fighting armed agressors. We also gave you 50 naval destroyers in exchange for leases on military bases

A little something about China... just because everyone is like "oh they'll be able to beat the US"

Do you have any IDEA of how shoddy Chinese tanks/planes/ships/munitions are?

Perfect example:
In the late 80s, Thailand ordered 4 Frigates from Chinese yards. The Chinese designed the ships off of their own Jianghu-class frigates. Thailand initially only wanted the hulls to be constructed in China, since they wanted to install the ships with equipment purchased from the US. However, the Chinese insisted on constructing the ships entirely themselves, and the Thais gave in and let them.

When they were delivered to Thailand in '91 and '92, they were found to be constructed so poorly that each ship had to spend almost a year in drydock to be, basically, re-constructed. This is probably a PRIME example of the condition of that state that the rest of the Chinese navy is in.

In 50 years, China might... MIGHT... win a war against the US. As of right now, the Chinese are about 50 years behind us technology wise... yes, they can cover that gap fairly quickly, but don't forget that the US will ALSO be advancing at the same time. The only real advantage the Chinese will have is numbers.

Let's look at China's military as of right now... yes, it's huge. Currently, they are gearing up against some sort of military operation against Taiwan sometime within the next... I'd say 10-15 years. HOWEVER, they lack the logistical capabilities to move any significant number of troops over the 100 miles or so of the Formosa Strait. Not only that, but if they make any aggressive move against Taiwan, the US will probably come to their aid... and right now, the US can probably defeat China without hardly breaking a sweat (the Chinese, as far as I know, fight conventionally).

I have no doubt that sometime within the next 50 years China will become a superpower, however, the only way I see them surpassing the US is if we experience some sort of economic crash within the next 50 years that will allow China to catch up with us.

O I'm sorry I didn't realize that you are also one of those complete morons that doubt your own countries abilities.

People like you need to be taken to a far off island and then have the island wiped off of the face of the earth with nukes.



no, he's right , though not to that extreme. America really has lost its industrial power it once had. Why? Because workers get payed way too much to do very little. Thats why buisnesses go to 3rd world countries since there are no labor laws. And until they get those laws, don't expect the US to be an industrial power


Also someone asked why do we pay alot for defence, earlier in the thread. 1) terrorists as someone said. 2) the main reason: Russia. What a better time to strike? Just after we thought it was all over. Now im not saying thats going to happen and i also believe, personally, that it is not likely, but possible. Thats why we spend alot on defense

And it had nothing at all to do with the Canadian pilots, the Canadian shipping, and the British Navy protecting convoys? Or the Anzac's in the Paific, or Montgomery...

I would say it's the training, the equipment, the logistics and support...

But now I think it's the killer death robots (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/talon.htm) we'll be fielding soon in large, apocalyptic numbers.

Fosters; Australian for beer.... o yah now I remember what I was talking about.

Yea, Australia. That's a pretty socialist country. Gun laws and income taxes are outrageous, YET there's topless beaches AND the aborigines can hunt all they want with rifles, BUT their stock market is so monitored and restricted its no wonder that you don't see it ever in the news.

Been there, done that. I liked the boomerangs and didgeridoos though. Weaoweaoweaoweaoweao. Man that was fun. I even bought and brought one home. I will say the best thing Australians do is preserve the coral reef. That's one piece of nature that oughta never be damaged in my grand kid's g-kid's g-kid's lifetime nevermind mine

O yah and their military. I dunno.

HEY BOB!

yea

WATCHA THINK OF THE AUSTRALIAN'S MILITARY?

say wha

THE AUSTRALIANS! REMEMBER THEM AND THEIR AWESOME MILITARY?

o yah, remember when we were playing wargames with them and we hit their conning tower on that sub only to find out it was made out of aluminium and cheap plastic

NOW I REMEMBER WHY I COULDN'T STAND THEM!! THX BOB!!

i like australian chicks... theyre squishy and fuzzy and stuff... hubida hubida

I'm tellin' ya Bob's pretty bright for a moron. He even got that one right!

The USAF isn't really that promising right now, they're going through a lot of force shaping, and that means fewer and fewer jobs available to people of American citizenship, let alone people trying to horn in from some other country.

Why the US Military rocks... Well, I'll say nothing about the Army or the USAF. I will, however, say that the USN is, at this point in time, basically untouchable. Can China develop a navy? Perhaps. Can we open up a few more torpedo factories to keep up? You'd better believe it. It's going do be a damn long time until the Chinese can build a nuclear sub with the capabilities of our SSN, SSBN and SSGN fleets. That's another thing. If I remember correctly, roughly half of our nuclear arsenal goes out to sea in our SSBN fleets. In the event of nuclear war (God save us if it comes to that), guess who is going to have the undetectable missile platform? China? Not so likely.

Let us just face it. The time of US might is nearly over. Time for China to rule... please let me be in hiding by that time...


Except not really

I don't see why everyone is all "China is going to crush us all". China is overrated.

I just want to remind everyone of Russia, and how they were able to bound foreward 50 years in a mere decade. If Russia can do it, China can too.

A small nuclear war will NOT kill everyone on Earth. All that comes from the media that hates ANYTHING to do with nuclear ANYTHING. That's the reason we hear so much about nuclear power plants being bad. Those would be the same people that want to keep us hooked on middle east oil for the rest of the century.

It would take an energy discharge about 1,000 times stronger than the most powerful nuke ever tested to kill everything, btw.


Seriously. Any time anything involving Nuclear Power comes up it's OH GOD CHERNOBYL this and OH GOD THREE MILE ISLAND that. Chernobyl was a shitty Soviet reactor that wasn't properly run and TMI wasn't nearly as bad as the newsmedia makes it out to be. But now you have celebrities and doomsayers and all sorts of other crackpots atom-bashing (haha no pun intended, I'll cry the first time I see a celebrity split an atom) when they can't seem to realize that those incidents happened when we were still really getting into the groove of using nuclear power. Now we know a lot more about nuclear power, and people are so scared that their spawn are going to grow a third eye or something, the nuclear power industry is getting shot in the foot in America. They're better about it in Europe, thank God someone's taking advantage of nuclear power. Of course, we've steamed over 132,000,000 miles on nuclear power in the US Navy without a single incident in our 213 past and current nuclear vessels, but atoms are evil, right?

I can't wait for this new fusion reactor to be built (whether in France or Japan, I don't really care [please be Japan]). It's going to be awesome. It'll be like having our own little baby Sun to give us power.

You know what the US military needs. Some decent special forces. Like our SAS.

In all fairness, you did burn down the White House. But you still wouldn't exist today if not for us.

Conversely, the nation called USA would not exist without the British Empire either. It's not like the current majority population (caucasian white) were natives to begin with.

Interesting thing I've seen here is that some people, who shall remain unnamed, seem to think that they have found a 'god' mode button in the US military branches. When you have immortal soldiers, equipment that never breaks, sabotage (and stupidity) proof intergrated communications, you might have some justification for that line of thought.

Since the current conflict seems to have drawn its own share of casualties, I think you might find that the 'god' mode button is actually an 'arrogance' button. I think I will wait until said button grows so big, you start to stagnate.

Yes, the current state of the US military branches has a significant war potential and would appear to have a good mix of mobility, firepower and tactics among world military forces. But the current attitudes displayed make me think that you believe that will remain a constant forever whether you advance or not.

Ever hear of US Navy Seals or Green Berets?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

Marric']And it had nothing at all to do with the Canadian pilots, the Canadian shipping, and the British Navy protecting convoys? Or the Anzac's in the Paific, or Montgomery...



I'm sorry, i was just pointing out what the US to help Britain. The Canadians, in my opinion, were very important in WWII. AS for the British Navy protecting convoys.... not entirely. At first Britain protected the convoys but then they needed more help. The US gave Britain 50 destroyers in exchange for military bases and also protected its own convoys later on. During this time US ships shot German subs on sight. As for Montgomery. He was a great general. In Africa he was able to drive the germans back, but not if American forces invaded Africa from Morocco, forcing the germans to fight on two fronts in that continent

The profound and life-changing life skills it bestows on the young men and women who volunteer to serve.

Like Death?...Torture?....

I could go on.

Like Death?...Torture?....
Nah, they learn that at home from the Telly and Films. The problem is that not all US Drill Sergeants are effective enough in their "brain washing" techniques to fully scour away the "gratuitious violence" gunk left by the US Media. The military needs controlled violence, not gratuitous violence.

I could go on. Or, since you seem to only be able to speak Propaganda, you could just go away....

I want to ask a question.

Why is it that I hear people saying that Americans are brainwashed, the military is evil, and stuff like that. People (majorily European) believe everything in the US is propaganda.

However, everytime I'm on a messageboard and someone says something about the US military or George Bush there are about straight posts that are nothing but anti-American propaganda.

Who's brainwashed now?

O I'm sorry I didn't realize that you are also one of those complete morons that doubt your own countries abilities.

People like you need to be taken to a far off island and then have the island wiped off of the face of the earth with nukes

You sound like my kind of scum, Nicania. :D

Anyway, some of you mentioned Russia as a big threat. I'm going to have to agree. Think about it. That "revolution" in 89 was pretty weird. A few people were put in jail, a couple cars blew up, the media wasn't even shut down, yep sounds like a legitimate revolution to me. :rolleyes:
Not to mention Putin's gradual seizure of power. I swear the way that guy talks, its like he wants to be declared Czar or something.

I'm obviously not a fan of the US Military, I think it is being used in unjustifiable ways, and I also think the US spends more money on it than it could possibly need.

What makes me wonder though is how you can set moral and attitude as a positive.
The US Military is being drawn out of the lower classes of society, mainly from people who lack good education, who have never seen another country, nor would they be able were one is oon the map (or whether they have electricity, ey Undelia ;))
Then they are put through a boot camp that is more traditional than useful, never actually enough to get rid of the stereotypes of your typical Hollywood Hero in the minds of these new recruits. (and if you are sceptical, watch "Rules of Engagement". I am so glad not more US Soldiers have seen that film)
So you end up with soldiers with a "I'm a hero defending the free world"-attitude, little or no training in how to deal with locals in other countries, no language-training that seems to be of any use and you end up with a bunch of scared people with guns and a problematic superiority complex.
Eg.:
-The shooting of civilians because they wouldn't slow down at improvised (often rather invisible) checkpoints.
-The shooting of Italian civilians (ie Nicola Callipari) for the same reason.
-The shooting of injured prisoners taken on the previous day and left in a building as was filmed by journalists (who were then called "traitors")
"He's pretending he's fucking dead!!!"*BANG-BANG*"Well he's dead now!"
-The running over of an Iraqi civilian's car with a tank because he stood in a no-parking zone
-Abu Ghraib of course...
------------
I could probably go on, but while the US Military can bomb the shit out of everyone, in peacekeeping and stabilisation (ie the things you need good training for) it must be one of the worst forces in the Western World. You don't see German peacekeepers in Afghanistan being hated and shot at constantly.
The cynicism with which slip-up's as described above are handled by Military Justice (they said the taped shooting of the prisoners was "self-defence") doesn't help either.
So there's where the US Military should be investing its money, not in even better ways of blowing up an enemy that you can defeat with what you have now.

The advantage the US military has?


$$$. so much more than anyone else. Next 17 combined...

NATO - Yes, let's talk about NATO. France opposes US Military build up. France opposes us going to War. France thinks US should disarm...all while enjoying the Protection the US Military and all 400 billion dollars of it's budget provide. Not to mention whatever benefits they get from having US Ships put into port or maintain whatever limited presence we might have in their country. And one more thing, did anyone ELSE read the news articles about the stockpiles of French-based Technology the US Troops found in Iraq? I think they were NVG's, but I'm not sure. So everyone from France can shut up, you bunch of hypocrites.

A. The US hasn't been protecting France for decades, other than the percieved threat from the soviet union. These 400 billions of dollars, especially in the last 14 years, has not done anything in France's defense. And the US has never come to frances defense, it just came into europe twice for its own purposes(War provoked by germany against the US, without the french being any part of either occasion).

B. What, exactly, are the benefits of letting the US dock their equipment in french ports?

C. If this was so obviously illegal, dont you think the French would have been totally on the news about it, having nations condemn and sanction them, etc? Or maybe you have it wrong?

Those stocks of equipment the US found are one of two things. They are either things from before 1991, when it was fully legal for France to sell things to Iraq(and they often did, as well as russia, china, etc), or after 1991, which were french technology that was either manufactured, or traded, by a third party country. French equipment is very spread through the world, its not unlikely for them to be in iraq, without the french breaking UN resolutions to do so. It wouldnt be in French interests to sell after 1991, they wouldnt make that much money through secret deals. It would not be worth it to risk the scandal, for such pitiful monetary gains. But people are so ingrained with hate for france in this country that anything that possibly could point to france, must be a fault of frances.

Those stocks of equipment the US found are one of two things. They are either things from before 1991, when it was fully legal for France to sell things to Iraq(and they often did, as well as russia, china, etc), or after 1991, which were french technology that was either manufactured, or traded, by a third party country. French equipment is very spread through the world, its not unlikely for them to be in iraq, without the french breaking UN resolutions to do so. It wouldnt be in French interests to sell after 1991, they wouldnt make that much money through secret deals. It would not be worth it to risk the scandal, for such pitiful monetary gains. But people are so ingrained with hate for france in this country that anything that possibly could point to france, must be a fault of frances.

Russia and China are not countries I would personally use to validate an argument, but whatever, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. :D

Who cares if it was in France's interest or not? They don't. They are supporting an alliance to be a rival to the US even though if the US goes down we'll take the whole world with us. The rest of you guys depend on us, economically, militarily and culturally rather you like it or not.

It seems that France has plenty of hate to spare for the US. They can sure dish it out but then they cry when they have to take it. :D

A. The US hasn't been protecting France for decades, other than the percieved threat from the soviet union. These 400 billions of dollars, especially in the last 14 years, has not done anything in France's defense. And the US has never come to frances defense, it just came into europe twice for its own purposes(War provoked by germany against the US, without the french being any part of either occasion).

We currently protect France from terrorists. Without us they would be overrun with fanatical Islamic extremists.

B. What, exactly, are the benefits of letting the US dock their equipment in french ports?

So we can mantain our ground forces there.

C. If this was so obviously illegal, dont you think the French would have been totally on the news about it, having nations condemn and sanction them, etc? Or maybe you have it wrong?

Cowardly politicians, like Bush, don't have the balls to condenm an "ally" and France's fellow EUers wouldn't say anything against one of their good ol' boys.

excuse me?

why is N. Korea still a communist country? China... so how could that mean we whooped them?

(if yours was a sarcastic statement, pls disregard this post as my sarcasm meter is broken)

Oh, and last I checked N. Korea and China are brutal enemies right now. Of course, they weren't 50 years ago, but much has changed.

Oh, and for those who think that China could beat us... no bloody way. Of course, if such a war would break out we'd destroy each other. The two largest superpowers in the world, today. However, war probably won't break out between us, as right now we have pretty good relations with China, which you can thank Nixon(One good thing he did) for.

If we shared a border, though, China would easily decimate us. If need be, China will have ever man, woman, and child in teh military. And every one of them will be more than willing to fight. It'd be near impossible to go against 1 billion screaming Chinamen. We are in reality protected by our seas, which we control with a vast Navy.

However, to answer your question, I would have to say that THE best thing about our military is:

There is a North Dakota Coast Guard .

That is all I have to say.

China will win. It's not a matter of if, it's when.

They are many. They are loyal. They are smart. They are industrious. And they are patient. They have waited for eons, and will do so until the Western world has destroyed itself. Then the Chinese Empire will bloom again and embrace the world in its arms.

Brush up on your Mandarin.
Hung Ching Pao? Ming Dang Hui Ping Peng Qan. Ok that doesn't make any sense, but somehow I like Chinese culture more than American "culture" :P Just stay away with Japanese culture... ugh.

Well, the US have a pretty nice logistic system that's pretty much unmatched. Everything else, depends, really.

Tank wise, the M1A2 is good, but not the best, the new Leopard 2 beats it.
Small arms, please, the M-16 and the M92FS are definitely NOT the best choices. The M92 was taken because it was cheaper than the GLock (which outperformed the M92 in the trials with ease) and the M-16 is inferior to even the STG-77 (also known as Steyr AUG).

"We currently protect France from terrorists. Without us they would be overrun with fanatical Islamic extremists."

Actually no, there are no US bases or ground forces stationed in France, unlike in Germany and some other former either Axis, or Soviet countries. Damn forces of occupation.

"The rest of you guys depend on us, economically, militarily and culturally rather you like it or not."

Economically, doubtful, as China is the economic superpower of the future (give it time and communism there will fall, then North Korea will follow, then you could end up with an Asian Economic Union with China, united Korea, Japan, India... etc). Not to mention that the US Dollar is basically nothing else but toilet paper anymore.

Military... not really, the NATO is overblown without an enemy and thus obsolete and the US can't even handle the camel herders in Iraq. Not to mention that the whole Iraq stunt is ruining the US military and the economy. Face it, the US couldn't afford another war, take the rotation of US forces in and out Iraq, from 10 Divisions, 9 are rotating. There are reservists in Iraq and the Americans are once again fighting several one-year wars there.

Culturally? ROFL!!!! What culture?! The stuff you copied from Europe after WW2? Yeah right... Or that shit you call rap, country music, boy and girl bands with no talent, mindless TV shows and sluts like Britney Spears or Paris Hilton, crappy movies like Pearl Harbor filled with cheap US propaganda worse than in WW2... If that's the culture the Americans have... nuke the country to ruins. Thank you.

The conclusion for Europe and the rest of the world must be... Ami go home! Hello China!

We currently protect France from terrorists. Without us they would be overrun with fanatical Islamic extremists.


If you mean by being such a big hairy monster going "Graaar! Look at me! I'm the big bad wolf of the world! I'm going to eat your kids!" so that said 'fanatical Islamic extremists' go for America rather than France, then by golly you are right.

If you mean something else, I would challenge you for proof.

Another thread were those who have idealogical hatreds of the United States overlook facts, details and any kind of objectivity in order to rant.

The fact is that in the years since 1776 the US Army and other branches have won nearly every war they have fought. They achieved a draw against the British twice when the British were the superpower (which worked out to be a win essentially because the British gave up and went home in the end). They crushed Mexico when Mexico had a bigger army than the US Army without once losing a battle. In the Civil War the US Army crushed a rival equal in prowess (and often better generaled) in one of the bloodiest and hardest fought wars of the 19th Century (only the Chinese Taiping Rebellion and Napoleonic wars were bloodier). It won without exception police actions against Native Americans, insurgents in Latin America and the Philippines and helped defeat the Boxers in our versions of colonial warfare. The death tolls in those colonial adventures were far less than in colonial adventures waged by Germany, Britian and France to name other examples.

It helped defeat Germany in World War I and crush Germany and Japan in World War 2 ... utterly. It held off a major invasion of South Korea, liberated that entire country, and came close to doing the same to North Korea, and then fought Communist China to a draw without having to esculate to a general global war. It won every major engagement it fought in Vietnam but politically was misused and was withdrawn without achieving victory. Something a lot of historians now feel it could have acheived (although it would have been risky at the time).

It liberated Kuwait, and crushed the Iraqi Army in less than a month... twice.

US casualties in Afghanistan have been minimal (especially when you compare it to the Soviet and British experiences there) and the record of US forces in that country compares extremely well to other NATO member forces.

Not counting the bombing campaign of World War 2 (don't forget the RAF killed a lot of civilians too, as did the Luftwaffe and Japanese Air Force and the Red Army), the US Army has killed far fewer civilians than any other armed force (of the major powers) during those nearly four centuries of service (dating 1776 to present)....

Idealogical rants aside, the people of the United States have a lot to be proud of in our armed forces. They serve the Republic very well, even when they are used in dubious causes and directed from afar by those with questionable wisdom.

The conclusion for Europe and the rest of the world must be... Ami go home! Hello China!
Oh, it is. Ami go home, welcome China :D
Too bad though that our jobs are gradually wandering to the East and China is buying up entire factories from Germany, which are then shipped to China. Their economic growth is frightening.

Ein Deutscher']Oh, it is. Ami go home, welcome China :D
Too bad though that our jobs are gradually wandering to the East and China is buying up entire factories from Germany, which are then shipped to China. Their economic growth is frightening.

so what does Germany plan to do when the Chinese decide they need the oil in the Middle East more than Germany does? After all, there are 1.2 Billion of them, and less than 100 million Germans in the entirety of Europe (including those outside Germany itself)

Not counting the bombing campaign of World War 2 (don't forget the RAF killed a lot of civilians too, as did the Luftwaffe and Japanese Air Force and the Red Army), the US Army has killed far fewer civilians than any other armed force (of the major powers) during those nearly four centuries of service (dating 1776 to present)....


Hum... sorry to destroy your bubble, but your country is a little over 200 years old (229 to be precise). Not 4 centuries - not even close. The US has the benefit of isolation, that's all. Otherwise, your country would shut it's big mouth and not try to dominate the rest of the world in all aspects. But it's already fading and will sooner or later collpase due to it's own weight and incompetent leadership. I'm just glad, the same is happening here in Germany. It's the inevitable result of the uncontrolled capitalism and the growing inequality and poverty of the people.

Well, the US have a pretty nice logistic system that's pretty much unmatched. Everything else, depends, really.

Tank wise, the M1A2 is good, but not the best, the new Leopard 2 beats it.
Small arms, please, the M-16 and the M92FS are definitely NOT the best choices. The M92 was taken because it was cheaper than the GLock (which outperformed the M92 in the trials with ease) and the M-16 is inferior to even the STG-77 (also known as Steyr AUG). !

hard to say, has the Leopard 2 has not been combat tested and the US Army is now reequipping with the M1A3

Ein Deutscher']Hum... sorry to destroy your bubble, but your country is a little over 200 years old (229 to be precise). Not 4 centuries - not even close..

that would be the 18th through the 21st Century... any other nits you need to pick?

so what does Germany plan to do when the Chinese decide they need the oil in the Middle East more than Germany does? After all, there are 1.2 Billion of them, and less than 100 million Germans in the entirety of Europe (including those outside Germany itself)
Well there might be many Chinese (and there are a lot more than 100 Million Germans in the world - Germany alone is 85 million). But, as you might have missed, we don't get the majority of our oil from the Middle East. We get most of our oil from Norway, the North Sea and Russia. If China decides that it wants the Middle East for itself, it'll provoke a conflict with the US, which would subsequently destroy the planet. I don't think they're that stupid. China didn't survive 6 millennia by being stupid. Compared to China, the US is a tiny baby shitting it's pampers.

Economically, doubtful, as China is the economic superpower of the future (give it time and communism there will fall, then North Korea will follow, then you could end up with an Asian Economic Union with China, united Korea, Japan, India... etc). Not to mention that the US Dollar is basically nothing else but toilet paper anymore.

Military... not really, the NATO is overblown without an enemy and thus obsolete and the US can't even handle the camel herders in Iraq. Not to mention that the whole Iraq stunt is ruining the US military and the economy. Face it, the US couldn't afford another war, take the rotation of US forces in and out Iraq, from 10 Divisions, 9 are rotating. There are reservists in Iraq and the Americans are once again fighting several one-year wars there.

Culturally? ROFL!!!! What culture?! The stuff you copied from Europe after WW2? Yeah right... Or that shit you call rap, country music, boy and girl bands with no talent, mindless TV shows and sluts like Britney Spears or Paris Hilton, crappy movies like Pearl Harbor filled with cheap US propaganda worse than in WW2... If that's the culture the Americans have... nuke the country to ruins. Thank you.

The conclusion for Europe and the rest of the world must be... Ami go home! Hello China!

Historically, China does not have a good track record of holding together so time will tell there. Chinese history is replete with revolts, civil wars, and collapse of central authority as well as economic collapse. So the jury is still out on whether China is the next superpower. Its a good bet that it will be, but certainly not a guarantee.

As far as America culture is concerned.... well, if the World hates it so much why is it in such demand? American soldiers certainly aren't forcing anybody to buy American movies, or clothes, or music videos. A hell of a lot of people certainly did line up to see "Stars Wars" this month, just like they did for a lot of other American movies over the last 100 years of film history. Yes, there is a lot of crap in American culture, and a lot of gems. Just like everyone elses.

As far as the American Army being overstretched is concerned. Well, that is a very valid point. Time will tell there too.

that would be the 18th through the 21st Century... any other nits you need to pick?
That's a very bad way to count it though. The US was founded very late in the 18th century and we now have the very beginning of the 21st. Thus, your illusion of 4 centuries is just that - an illusion of grandeur to make your baby nation look older and wiser than it is. The US is nothing more than a nation in it's infancy. It is just now going through the periods of dark age that most other nations - especially in Europe and Asia - have long left behind.

Ein Deutscher']Well there might be many Chinese (and there are a lot more than 100 Million Germans in the world - Germany alone is 85 million). But, as you might have missed, we don't get the majority of our oil from the Middle East. We get most of our oil from Norway, the North Sea and Russia. If China decides that it wants the Middle East for itself, it'll provoke a conflict with the US, which would subsequently destroy the planet. I don't think they're that stupid. China didn't survive 6 millennia by being stupid. Compared to China, the US is a tiny baby shitting it's pampers.

according to this http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/germany.html Germany gets 19% of its oil from OPEC, the majority of which consists of Middle Eastern nations. A lot of that Russian oil and natural gas comes from Siberia, which China has historical claims to. Compared to China, Germany is a baby too, as are all of European descent. Only the Iraqis and Egyptians have had civilization (agriculture, writing, law) as long as the Chinese have.

Ein Deutscher']That's a very bad way to count it though. The US was founded very late in the 18th century and we now have the very beginning of the 21st. Thus, your illusion of 4 centuries is just that - an illusion of grandeur to make your baby nation look older and wiser than it is. The US is nothing more than a nation in it's infancy. It is just now going through the periods of dark age that most other nations - especially in Europe and Asia - have long left behind.

as compared to Germany (unified 1870), which until then was frequently a subsidary of France, Austria or Poland (depending on the region)?

Its not an illusion, nor meant as such. It simply a statement that the US Army has existed in 4 centuries, not four hundred years. Actually though there are National Guard units that trace back to the original English settlement in the 1620s, so my point would work in that instance as well.

Before getting to smug, you should remember that a large portion of the people of European descent in the US are of German origin. An important thing to consider. Only those descended from the British Isles outnumber the Germans in the US.

Ein Deutscher']That's a very bad way to count it though. The US was founded very late in the 18th century and we now have the very beginning of the 21st. Thus, your illusion of 4 centuries is just that - an illusion of grandeur to make your baby nation look older and wiser than it is. The US is nothing more than a nation in it's infancy. It is just now going through the periods of dark age that most other nations - especially in Europe and Asia - have long left behind.

You arrogant Teutonic bastard. "Baby nation," indeed. The United States has been governed democratically under a stable Constitution for over 200 years. Considering Germany's pathetic track record of democracy (your Basic Law is all of 60 years old at this point?) and the widely-despised governments in its despotic past, I don't think you should be pointing the "Dark Ages" finger at anyone here.

You arrogant Teutonic bastard. "Baby nation," indeed. The United States has been governed democratically under a stable Constitution for over 200 years. Considering Germany's pathetic track record of democracy (your Basic Law is all of 60 years old at this point?) and the widely-despised governments in its despotic past, I don't think you should be pointing the "Dark Ages" finger at anyone here.

take it easy... we are debating, not flaming. don't give him ammunition to use against you.

good point on German political history though.

Ein Deutscher]Too bad though that our jobs are gradually wandering to the East and China is buying up entire factories from Germany, which are then shipped to China. Their economic growth is frightening.

Actually, outsourcing isn't that big of a deal. In fact it may result in a net job gain. Some recomended reading (http://www.uschinabiz.com/newsletter/Vol_1_5_Outsourcing_Jobs_The_Hollow_Hysteria.shtml). Y'all should appreciate the source. :D


If you mean by being such a big hairy monster going "Graaar! Look at me! I'm the big bad wolf of the world! I'm going to eat your kids!" so that said 'fanatical Islamic extremists' go for America rather than France, then by golly you are right.

If you mean something else, I would challenge you for proof.

Bin Laden and other terrorists have vowed to destroy "the West" not just the US. Last time I checked France was part of the West.


Economically, doubtful, as China is the economic superpower of the future (give it time and communism there will fall, then North Korea will follow, then you could end up with an Asian Economic Union with China, united Korea, Japan, India... etc). Not to mention that the US Dollar is basically nothing else but toilet paper anymore.

You know that not everyone is all for the collectivist idiocy like the Europeans, right? The US dollar is only the second most valuable currency in the world, true. However, it will soon recover as the European economy is stagnating and unemployment is huge.

Military... not really, the NATO is overblown without an enemy and thus obsolete and the US can't even handle the camel herders in Iraq. Not to mention that the whole Iraq stunt is ruining the US military and the economy. Face it, the US couldn't afford another war, take the rotation of US forces in and out Iraq, from 10 Divisions, 9 are rotating. There are reservists in Iraq and the Americans are once again fighting several one-year wars there.

Calling the Iraqis camel herders, a bit racist and insensitive isn't that. :D
We could easily handle them if Bush wasn't such a coward and if the US press wasn't traitorous. They already lost us Vietnam. :mad:


Culturally? ROFL!!!! What culture?! The stuff you copied from Europe after WW2? Yeah right... Or that shit you call rap, country music, boy and girl bands with no talent, mindless TV shows and sluts like Britney Spears or Paris Hilton, crappy movies like Pearl Harbor filled with cheap US propaganda worse than in WW2... If that's the culture the Americans have... nuke the country to ruins. Thank you.

If its so "crappy" then why do y'all gobble it up? :D

The conclusion for Europe and the rest of the world must be... Ami go home! Hello China!

Let's see, you would rather be dominated by a dictatorship than a democracy, this speaks volumes about your sanity.

according to this http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/germany.html Germany gets 19% of its oil from OPEC, the majority of which consists of Middle Eastern nations. A lot of that Russian oil and natural gas comes from Siberia, which China has historical claims to. Compared to China, Germany is a baby too, as are all of European descent. Only the Iraqis and Egyptians have had civilization (agriculture, writing, law) as long as the Chinese have.
That is correct - as you noticed, we don't get our majority of oil from the Middle East. And compared to China, you are correct again - Germany or better, the German people are almost 2000 years old, so not quite as old as China or Egypt or Iraq. We don't claim to be way superior than China though, so this is not an issue. With it's not even 250 years, the US is one of the baby-nations of the planet and has to undergo some trouble, to realize that without devastating war on their own soil (no, that "revolutionary war" does not count), it has not really suffered and learned what it means to avoid such things. The US does not appreciate peace and throws away it's freedom much too easily by replacing it with illusionary security and endless war against a phantom. Due to this, I would have voted "The US military sucks fat monkey balls" in this poll, but unfortunately that option doesn't exist.

You arrogant Teutonic bastard. "Baby nation," indeed. The United States has been governed democratically under a stable Constitution for over 200 years. Considering Germany's pathetic track record of democracy (your Basic Law is all of 60 years old at this point?) and the widely-despised governments in its despotic past, I don't think you should be pointing the "Dark Ages" finger at anyone here.
We already had our Dark Ages - now it's your turn. Enjoy your freedom, while it lasts. *cackle*

Ein Deutscher']We already had our Dark Ages - now it's your turn. Enjoy your freedom, while it lasts. *cackle*

lol, you fucking weirdo. don't you have putsches to launch? beers to drink? (assuming you're Bavarian, that is. they do bier like no-one else).

No, you enjoy your country's short fling with liberal constitutionalism. I know American democracy will last over the long term. How long before some charismatic nationalist sweeps Germany off her feet again?

Ein Deutscher]That is correct - as you noticed, we don't get our majority of oil from the Middle East. And compared to China, you are correct again - Germany or better, the German people are almost 2000 years old, so not quite as old as China or Egypt or Iraq. We don't claim to be way superior than China though, so this is not an issue. With it's not even 250 years, the US is one of the baby-nations of the planet and has to undergo some trouble, to realize that without devastating war on their own soil (no, that "revolutionary war" does not count), it has not really suffered and learned what it means to avoid such things. The US does not appreciate peace and throws away it's freedom much too easily by replacing it with illusionary security and endless war against a phantom. Due to this, I would have voted "The US military sucks fat monkey balls" in this poll, but unfortunately that option doesn't exist.

What does the age of a civilization have anything to do with its superiority? I'm sorry, that just doesn't make any sense. Also, why doesn't the Revolutionary War "count", because you say so?


You arrogant Teutonic bastard. "Baby nation," indeed. The United States has been governed democratically under a stable Constitution for over 200 years. Considering Germany's pathetic track record of democracy (your Basic Law is all of 60 years old at this point?) and the widely-despised governments in its despotic past, I don't think you should be pointing the "Dark Ages" finger at anyone here.

More of my kind of scum. :D

Ein Deutscher']That is correct - as you noticed, we don't get our majority of oil from the Middle East. And compared to China, you are correct again - Germany or better, the German people are almost 2000 years old, so not quite as old as China or Egypt or Iraq. We don't claim to be way superior than China though, so this is not an issue. With it's not even 250 years, the US is one of the baby-nations of the planet and has to undergo some trouble, to realize that without devastating war on their own soil (no, that "revolutionary war" does not count), it has not really suffered and learned what it means to avoid such things. The US does not appreciate peace and throws away it's freedom much too easily by replacing it with illusionary security and endless war against a phantom..

hmm, 9/11 would make the point pretty clearly that the War on Terrorism (as it is called) is hardly an illusion. Actually the US government is one of the oldest governments now on the planet. Nearly all of the European governments date from the Napoleonic era or later as currently organized (under their current constitutions) and most of them date later than that (post World War I or 2 or even Post Soviet collapse).

Actually, in real damage suffered, the 13 Colonies suffered pretty heavily during the Revolution, and South suffered a military defeat as bad as Germany did in 1865 (compared to German defeat in 1945) as it was completely occupied and most of its major cities were burnt wreckage.

The German people actually date a hell of a lot further back than 2000 years if you want to get technical as the Romans fought them as early as Marius in the late stages of the Roman Republic (circa 80 BC), and they certainly came from somewhere.... there just aren't many records. As the English come from the same source as the Germans (Anglo Saxons and Jutes) and you look at the fact that the US was settled by largely northern Europeans from the British Isles and Germany in the first 60 years of its existance, then we are all one big happy ethnic group in that respect.



Ein Deutscher']Due to this, I would have voted "The US military sucks fat monkey balls" in this poll, but unfortunately that option doesn't exist.

that statement however is pretty clearly trolling... knock it off

Before getting to smug, you should remember that a large portion of the people of European descent in the US are of German origin. An important thing to consider.
That is indeed a problem. They might rediscover their "Nazi-nature". Aren't you at least a little scared? Or was it maybe partly the German nature that made the US what it is today? As I already said, it has a very good geostrategical location, whereas Germany - as a nation, as an empire and the German people as former tribes, had to fight off various enemies and unfortunately also invaded other nations (and sometimes lost such wars). The German tribes were one of the reasons why the Roman Empire fell - it seems that our people were aggressive and unruly. Thank god - that is why we exist today. Our nation and most other nations in Europe and Asia, underwent centuries or even millenia of evolution and civilization. Geostrategical circumstances played a large role in this. Without WW1, WW2 would probably not have happened, without the rather claustrophobic territories here in Europe, most wars of conquest would not have happened. Without going through Despotism, Monarchy, Republic and Democracy, we all would not evolve further. The very first democracy was Athen in Greece, the first democracy in Germany was before the Third Reich - sadly it was shortlived, but that was a consequence of WW1 aswell. There are so many historical factors and vast knowledge in our nations that we can learn from, to avoid stuff like WW2 from happening again on our soil. You on the other hand, need to overcome your nationalistic pride and arrogance, before realizing that war is not the solution to the world's problems.

Undelia, we might be kindred spirits. How about we play the old good-cop, bad-cop routine? I totally call bad cop. ;)

Ein Deutscher']There are so many historical factors and vast knowledge in our nations that we can learn from, to avoid stuff like WW2 from happening again on our soil. You on the other hand, need to overcome your nationalistic pride and arrogance, before realizing that war is not the solution to the world's problems.

Please. For most of your vaunted long history, war was regarded as a regular tool of statecraft, or even a lot of fun (in the case of your ancient Germanian ancestors).

It's only in the modern era that people have decided war is wrong, and the US has just as much experience in the 20th century as Europeans have.

Your vast experience obviously didn't help Europeans avoid the Napoleonic Wars, the Crimean War, the Six Weeks War, the Franco-Prussian War, the Balkan Wars, the World Wars . . . need I go on?

[QUOTE='[NS]Ein Deutscher']That is indeed a problem. They might rediscover their "Nazi-nature". Aren't you at least a little scared? Or was it maybe partly the German nature that made the US what it is today? As I already said, it has a very good geostrategical location, whereas Germany - as a nation, as an empire and the German people as former tribes, had to fight off various enemies and unfortunately also invaded other nations (and sometimes lost such wars). The German tribes were one of the reasons why the Roman Empire fell - it seems that our people were aggressive and unruly. Thank god - that is why we exist today. Our nation and most other nations in Europe and Asia, underwent centuries or even millenia of evolution and civilization. Geostrategical circumstances played a large role in this. Without WW1, WW2 would probably not have happened, without the rather claustrophobic territories here in Europe, most wars of conquest would not have happened. Without going through Despotism, Monarchy, Republic and Democracy, we all would not evolve further. The very first democracy was Athen in Greece, the first democracy in Germany was before the Third Reich - sadly it was shortlived, but that was a consequence of WW1 aswell. There are so many historical factors and vast knowledge in our nations that we can learn from, to avoid stuff like WW2 from happening again on our soil. [QUOTE]

as I have German roots on my fathers side, I am not unduly worried about any "Nazi" influence as we have been here since the 1690s...

there is plenty of blame to spread around Europe for the Great War... and yes, no Great War, no Second World War (or Soviet Union either probably).

[QUOTE='[NS]Ein Deutscher']You on the other hand, need to overcome your nationalistic pride and arrogance, before realizing that war is not the solution to the world's problems[QUOTE]

once again, you assume that a personal attack will make your point. tsk...and I never said war was the solution to the worlds problems. Although it has solved some of them and this particular thread is about military affairs after all.

The German people actually date a hell of a lot further back than 2000 years if you want to get technical as the Romans fought them as early as Marius in the late stages of the Roman Republic (circa 80 BC), and they certainly came from somewhere.... there just aren't many records. As the English come from the same source as the Germans (Anglo Saxons and Jutes) and you look at the fact that the US was settled by largely northern Europeans from the British Isles and Germany in the first 60 years of its existance, then we are all one big happy ethnic group in that respect.

I didn't want to be too picky. 2000 years seemed to be a neat number to demonstrate that evolution of civilizations takes a long time and the US is among the youngest civilizations on the planet without too much original knowledge to draw from, compared to Europe and Asia. Mankind evolved from Africa - but as you see today, they did not have the chance to develop properly due to climate and the colonial past of Europe, which stiffled such developments. But even now, that they have the chance, most democracies in Africa devolve into oligarchies, rulers destroy democracy by installing themselves in rigged elections. People are being slaughtered due to their ethnic background. They're in the stage of national development that we were in decades or centuries ago. So it seems that age of civilization does not necessarily equal wisdom of civilization. However, due to the lack of problems in the US today, I can't understand why the wisdom that war causes suffering and does rarely result in lasting peace, has not yet been realized. Why is the protest of the vast majority of the planet so blatantly ignored? What do the US gain by pissing off almost all other people on Earth? I really don't understand this, since it only results in hate and rejection and eventually more war. Is this what you need and want? The world united against the US?

Please. For most of your vaunted long history, war was regarded as a regular tool of statecraft, or even a lot of fun (in the case of your ancient Germanian ancestors).

It's only in the modern era that people have decided war is wrong, and the US has just as much experience in the 20th century as Europeans have.

Your vast experience obviously didn't help Europeans avoid the Napoleonic Wars, the Crimean War, the Six Weeks War, the Franco-Prussian War, the Balkan Wars, the World Wars . . . need I go on?
The experience from WW1 and primarily WW2 was, what made most of us realize that war is unacceptable. Especially now, that it is an unpersonal and all-consuming monster, destroying the lives of tens of thousands or even millions in a relatively short amount of time. The ever increasing technological perfection of destruction leads us to realize that this is not what we want our future to be. As I already said however, you did not have the experience of a world war on your own soil, your culture destroyed, your roots erradicated. Maybe you need to suffer through that before you learn from your own mistakes, like we did.

Ein Deutscher']However, due to the lack of problems in the US today, I can't understand why the wisdom that war causes suffering and does rarely result in lasting peace, has not yet been realized. Why is the protest of the vast majority of the planet so blatantly ignored? What do the US gain by pissing off almost all other people on Earth? I really don't understand this, since it only results in hate and rejection and eventually more war. Is this what you need and want? The world united against the US?

I'll be a little trite at the beginning and say, "Aside from slavery, fascism and communism, war has never solved anything." Before you start arguing me to the ground about communism having collapsed of its own accord, note that I just saw that quote on a t-shirt one day and remembered it.

To paraphrase Starship Troopers, let me just tell you that, in fact, war has been more effective than any other method for settling disputes. Take a look at the historical record, going back to the Peloponnesian War or the Punic Wars (what's Carthage done for us lately?)

Sure, they're bloody and expensive, but that's the key to their efficacy. After running your nation/city/tribe through the wringer and coming out on the losing side, you're not likely to annoy the victor ever again, are you?

once again, you assume that a personal attack will make your point. tsk...and I never said war was the solution to the worlds problems. Although it has solved some of them and this particular thread is about military affairs after all.
It's hardly a personal attack - it's well-known that the US is an arrogant nation, full of nationalism and overexaggerated pride in it's "culture" and achievements, most of them stolen and copied from other people. My use of the word "you" was not directed at you specifically, rather at your whole nation - at all Americans. Primarily those who support Bush and his conquest of the Middle East.

I'll be a little trite at the beginning and say, "Aside from slavery, fascism and communism, war has never solved anything." Before you start arguing me to the ground about communism having collapsed of its own accord, note that I just saw that quote on a t-shirt one day and remembered it.

To paraphrase Starship Troopers, let me just tell you that, in fact, war has been more effective than any other method for settling disputes. Take a look at the historical record, going back to the Peloponnesian War or the Punic Wars (what's Carthage done for us lately?)

Sure, they're bloody and expensive, but that's the key to their efficacy. After running your nation/city/tribe through the wringer and coming out on the losing side, you're not likely to annoy the victor ever again, are you?
The indiscriminate destruction of cities, nations and people is unacceptable. It doesn't actually solve the problem - it removes a party from the dispute. I think, we have overcome this stage of civilization to realize that the utter annihilation of people is not a solution. It didn't work to remove the jews either - and certainly you will agree that this "final solution" was not an acceptable solution either.

Ein Deutscher']I didn't want to be too picky. 2000 years seemed to be a neat number to demonstrate that evolution of civilizations takes a long time and the US is among the youngest civilizations on the planet without too much original knowledge to draw from, compared to Europe and Asia. Mankind evolved from Africa - but as you see today, they did not have the chance to develop properly due to climate and the colonial past of Europe, which stiffled such developments. But even now, that they have the chance, most democracies in Africa devolve into oligarchies, rulers destroy democracy by installing themselves in rigged elections. People are being slaughtered due to their ethnic background. They're in the stage of national development that we were in decades or centuries ago. So it seems that age of civilization does not necessarily equal wisdom of civilization. However, due to the lack of problems in the US today, I can't understand why the wisdom that war causes suffering and does rarely result in lasting peace, has not yet been realized. Why is the protest of the vast majority of the planet so blatantly ignored? What do the US gain by pissing off almost all other people on Earth? I really don't understand this, since it only results in hate and rejection and eventually more war. Is this what you need and want? The world united against the US?

As I stated in another thread (on Imperialism and Africa) Tribalism is the greatest problem Africa faces (although endemic disease is a big close second) But that isn't really on topic for this thread though.

As far as American policies go, well I voted against Bush myself, and a lot of Americans aren't too happy with the direction we are going. Personally, I think invading Iraq was a major strategic blunder, and unneccessary. Since we are there now though, and leaving would create an even bigger mess than staying will, and the Iraqi government even expressed concern two days ago that we would leave too soon, it looks like we have to live with it.

As far as the groups go that seek to kill Americans go? Well, they were attacking Americans long before we ever invaded Iraq or for that matter, even fought the First Gulf War (the one where we liberated an Arab country conquered by another Arab country). Hard to see where the US has had a lot of choices other than some of the ones we took. Even the adventure in Lebanon in the 1980s was requested by the UN, and French troops died there as well from car bombs.

As far as this thread goes though, the initial post was simply to indicate why readers think the US Army is effective or not. It was not a general forum for "the American military is evil" as many of the posters in this thread responded with.

Plenty of other threads for that come and go all the time.

Perhaps we should get back to that?

Ein Deutscher']It's hardly a personal attack - it's well-known that the US is an arrogant nation, full of nationalism and overexaggerated pride in it's "culture" and achievements, most of them stolen and copied from other people.

What civilization has not borrowed from those who came before? You wouldn't be on this forum right now if the ancient Mesopotamians hadn't invented writing. Indeed, that is why America is a civilization equal to Europe. They've stood on your foundation and built a little more.

Ein Deutscher']My use of the word "you" was not directed at you specifically, rather at your whole nation - at all Americans. Primarily those who support Bush and his conquest of the Middle East.

So, you're saying that, though you're not launching an attack on him personally, you're attacking the 52% of the American electorate that did vote for Bush. Top-notch.

As for your ridiculous allegations about Middle-Eastern conquest, I think I'm going to leave it at that -- ridicule. If the United States were trying to overrun the Middle East, they'd have done it by now.

Ein Deutscher]The world united against the US?

Not gong to happen. Y'all need us and deep down you Euros know you love us. :fluffle:

We are like your younger more successful brother. Sure your jealous but beneath your sarcastic quips, you really care. :D


as I have German roots on my fathers side, I am not unduly worried about any "Nazi" influence as we have been here since the 1690s...

ditto

Although it has solved some of them and this particular thread is about military affairs after all.

It was about the millitary once, long ago. Before the dark times, before the America Bashers. (sound of lightsaber deactivating)

Undelia, we might be kindred spirits. How about we play the old good-cop, bad-cop routine? I totally call bad cop.

You have already adequately proven your metal as a "bad cop". :D

The best thing the U.S. military has going for it is I haven't been drafted for it. I would betray our country's greatest secrets for a nickel and a scoop of Baskin-Robbins chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream. Actually, for nothing.

And I would gladly fork over the 75 cents for the bullet that puts you out of your miserable existence. That you would betray your country and the lives of millions because of your self-righteous arrogance sickens me.

This is a real nice, friendly thread eh?

Let's justify us some war!

Ein Deutscher']The indiscriminate destruction of cities, nations and people is unacceptable. It doesn't actually solve the problem - it removes a party from the dispute. I think, we have overcome this stage of civilization to realize that the utter annihilation of people is not a solution. It didn't work to remove the jews either - and certainly you will agree that this "final solution" was not an acceptable solution either.

Of course I agree. But I wasn't talking about genocide, nor of the massive destruction of cities and civilian populations, and nobody else was either. Besides, last time I checked, America's "War of Conquest" in the Mid-East isn't perpetrating any of these atrocities.

Interestingly enough, I think that war is more bearable for non-combatant populations than at any other time in history. We don't have to carpet-bomb cities just to kill a few guys, we don't kill civilians just to "send a message" and our troops are well-disciplined enough that the passage of any army is no longer marked by a trail of butchered livestock, looted houses, raped women and weeping children. Don't get me wrong, it's still a dirty, nasty and brutish business, but it's far, far better than anything that's come before.

I'd just like to point out to you that there hasn't been a war between the major North American states since the 1840's, and the last time there was anything like a contest of equals ended in 1814. Seems we in the New World have learned our (anti-war) lesson better and faster than our more sophisticated European superiors. :p

Let's justify us some war!

Yes, let's. :D

We are like your younger more successful brother. Sure your jealous but beneath your sarcastic quips, you really care. :D



I think right now, most people on the world aren't overly fond of America. There are various polls and such backing this up - look for them on Goggle yourself. Personally, I think America is like the spoiled, rich only-child in the rich neighborhood. It gets everything it wants with very little effort, simply by throwing it's weight around. This does not create friends of the same level - it creates "friends" out of fear and dependence. The governments might call you friends - the people on the other hand, think differently.

Actually, outsourcing isn't that big of a deal. In fact it may result in a net job gain. Some recomended reading (http://www.uschinabiz.com/newsletter/Vol_1_5_Outsourcing_Jobs_The_Hollow_Hysteria.shtml). Y'all should appreciate the source. :D




Bin Laden and other terrorists have vowed to destroy "the West" not just the US. Last time I checked France was part of the West.




You know that not everyone is all for the collectivist idiocy like the Europeans, right? The US dollar is only the second most valuable currency in the world, true. However, it will soon recover as the European economy is stagnating and unemployment is huge.



Calling the Iraqis camel herders, a bit racist and insensitive isn't that. :D
We could easily handle them if Bush wasn't such a coward and if the US press wasn't traitorous. They already lost us Vietnam. :mad:




If its so "crappy" then why do y'all gobble it up? :D



Let's see, you would rather be dominated by a dictatorship than a democracy, this speaks volumes about your sanity.

A. I dont think a site with the slogan "Strengthening Relationships Between Chinese and American Businesses" is an unbiased site toward outsourcing.

B. Bin laden has commited how many attacks on France? 0 major, and Im having a hard time coming up with any at all. Regardless, the French GIGN is one of the worlds most active counter-terrorist units, and the French army has considerable training against insurgency, etc(Indochina, Algeria, Africa, etc). The French neither get specific help from the US(Going into afghanistan could be stretched to be called a proximity helping of the french, and thats about it), nor do they need it. The US does not have land forces in France, and it isnt doing anything for france; simply things for itself that might have an effect on france(and possibly negative, as things such as Iraq are just breeding more anti-western peoples).

C. The US goes for collective idiocy pretty well, despite them not admitting it. The Euro is strong, and europe has had high inflation since before 2002. There is no reason to believe that the european economy is sagging, quite the opposite. Eastern europe is becoming more free-trade and increased trade in europe means that eastern europe will gradually rise, while helping western europe, simultaneously leading to a gradual fall of the need of the US economy in europe.

D. The media didn't lose us the war in vietnam. The vietnamese outlasted us. The only way you could have kept support for the war was to outright lie to the american people, not letting them know what was occuring. Any straight givings of the facts would lead to the people getting less and less supportive of the war(not to say it all was straight, but it wasnt as slanted as some like to say it was). I would love to see you prove in a court of law that the US press is treacherous.

E. There is no alternative, at least in america. In europe, its not as widespread as many think; Its more the fact that the US economy is spreading over there, and with that corporations, and with that "culture". There is plenty of their own culture over there, and without US culture, they wouldnt blow up or such.

Of course I agree. But I wasn't talking about genocide, nor of the massive destruction of cities and civilian populations, and nobody else was either. Besides, last time I checked, America's "War of Conquest" in the Mid-East isn't perpetrating any of these atrocities.

I'd just like to point out to you that there hasn't been a war between the major North American states since the 1840's, and the last time there was anything like a contest of equals ended in 1814. Seems we in the New World have learned our (anti-war) lesson better and faster than our more sophisticated European superiors. :p

What? So there hasn't been massive property destruction and thousands of dead civilians in Iraq?

Of course I agree. But I wasn't talking about genocide, nor of the massive destruction of cities and civilian populations, and nobody else was either. Besides, last time I checked, America's "War of Conquest" in the Mid-East isn't perpetrating any of these atrocities.

I'd just like to point out to you that there hasn't been a war between the major North American states since the 1840's, and the last time there was anything like a contest of equals ended in 1814. Seems we in the New World have learned our (anti-war) lesson better and faster than our more sophisticated European superiors. :p
That's not the issue. You may be relatively peaceful among yourself - although right now your nation is as divided as never before. However you do not apply these same principles to other nations. You seem to be unable to imagine the suffering your military causes elsewhere. Imagine you were an Iraqi, a Vietnamese, a Lebanese, a Cuban, an Afghani, etc. Maybe these people do not want your military in their countries? Maybe terrorism is their way of telling you to get lost? I don't see how else they could make you leave.

What? So there hasn't been massive property destruction and thousands of dead civilians in Iraq?
Naw, Falludja was a hallucination.

well, it can ba good thing for teaching people skills, not that they could not be learned elsewhere that is, it has benefit for the children of officers, as one I can vouch for that personally, but it will ruin your social life. Other than that...... they have had a large number of scandals over the years, Tailhook, G'itmo, Abu Ghraib (Gra short a h-eeeb Mr Bush) now the Quoran incidents and the EUCDF proposal, The USAFA fundamentalist scandal they are going through an identity crisis, and spending more on new weapon systems than taking care of their soldiers, the BRAC commission is not going to help the situation either, closing Walter Reed and Groton USNSB not cool, but its what you get when the CINC went AWOL from the TX ANG and the SECDEF is more concerned with his own pocket, thus the US military is becoming more like the US Foreign Legion, paid soldiers with no pasts and fake names than a defense force. Nuke Halliburton and Impeach Bush, GENERAL Wesley Clark for President 2008!!!!

P.S. NATO, still needed or NOT?
and CLARK FOR PRESIDENT!!!

B. Bin laden has commited how many attacks on France? 0 major, and Im having a hard time coming up with any at all. Regardless, the French GIGN is one of the worlds most active counter-terrorist units, and the French army has considerable training against insurgency, etc(Indochina, Algeria, Africa, etc). The French neither get specific help from the US(Going into afghanistan could be stretched to be called a proximity helping of the french, and thats about it), nor do they need it. The US does not have land forces in France, and it isnt doing anything for france; simply things for itself that might have an effect on france(and possibly negative, as things such as Iraq are just breeding more anti-western peoples).

C. The US goes for collective idiocy pretty well, despite them not admitting it. The Euro is strong, and europe has had high inflation since before 2002. There is no reason to believe that the european economy is sagging, quite the opposite. Eastern europe is becoming more free-trade and increased trade in europe means that eastern europe will gradually rise, while helping western europe, simultaneously leading to a gradual fall of the need of the US economy in europe.

D. The media didn't lose us the war in vietnam. The vietnamese outlasted us. The only way you could have kept support for the war was to outright lie to the american people, not letting them know what was occuring. Any straight givings of the facts would lead to the people getting less and less supportive of the war(not to say it all was straight, but it wasnt as slanted as some like to say it was). I would love to see you prove in a court of law that the US press is treacherous.

B: That's because America is the big dog right now. If France were the super power, the Arc de Triomphe would have been bombed instead of the WTC. But haven't you listened to any of b. Laden's pronouncements? He's not just coming after the US, he's on a jihad against all of modernity, everthing that Western Civilization holds dear. I know he's not currently attacking you, wherever you may be, but don't you have values worth preserving from this barbarian?

C Sure the EU has got a strong currency and high inflation. They've also got high unemployment and low productivity! BTW, how long will it take Eastern Europe to "gradually rise"? As long as E. Germany?

D Even at the time, polls showed that ordinary Americans overwhelmingly supported the Vietnam war and wanted to carry it through to a successful conclusion. But the war effort was botched by the politicians and then stabbed in the back by the academic, journalistic, political, and intellectual elite in America. If the soldiers had been given the tools they needed, and a modest amount of backing from home, they'd have won.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK FOR PRESIDENT, 2008


HOOOAH!

What? So there hasn't been massive property destruction and thousands of dead civilians in Iraq?

I believe Ein Deutscher used the phrase "I think, we have overcome this stage of civilization to realize that the utter annihilation of people is not a solution." Despite all the property destruction (now largely rebuilt) and the human losses (which we sadly cannot make right) caused by the war in Iraq, you simply cannot say that utter annihilation of any kind has taken place.

Does this mean anything to you?

...as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.

Specifically his "Declaration of War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden%27s_Declaration_of_War)" does not freighten me all that much. Or read his Fatwa (http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm).

The power of the United States military lies in the brave men and women that have, are, and will in the future, serve our nation. It's power comes from what it is supposed to represent- freedom, equality, and righteousness. It represents putting your own life on the line for the rights and freedoms of others. In effect, it represents everything we hold good.

Many may argue that the country is going in a slightly different direction, but the fact still remains that living in the United States is an honor.

Let the spamming from other, less fortunate peoples from other nations, begin. It should be apparent by now that in my 2 plus years posting in these forums that nobody can dissuade me from my patriotism and pride in my nation.

Those that hate my nation do it either out of envy or out of fear of letting the people have freedom. I hope one day that everybody in this world has the opportunities and freedoms afforded to me by my country. This right has come at a great cost to my fellow countrymen and women, and for that I am eternally grateful. Tyranny's days are numbered.

Long live freedom.

You should apply as parrot for your president. You sound just like him.

Ein Deutscher']That's not the issue. You may be relatively peaceful among yourself - although right now your nation is as divided as never before. However you do not apply these same principles to other nations. You seem to be unable to imagine the suffering your military causes elsewhere. Imagine you were an Iraqi, a Vietnamese, a Lebanese, a Cuban, an Afghani, etc. Maybe these people do not want your military in their countries? Maybe terrorism is their way of telling you to get lost? I don't see how else they could make you leave.

Ah, but it IS the issue, my friend. North Americans have sailed over the Atlantic not once but twice now, to help sort out the mess that "enlightened" Europeans have made of their continent. Then, we stood watch in your countries to prevent a third. We've avoided having a mess of our own for 150 years. I think you might be the ones in need of a little preaching from we here in the New World.

I'll ignore the Vietnamese, Lebanese and Cuban examples, since the US doesn't currently have troops in either country and it's therefore a moot point, but I think if I were a regular Iraqi or Afghani, I think I'd feel the way most of them do: pleased and grateful. The terrorist movements in both countries are nothing more than the death rattle of a die-hard minority, whereas the majority are fervently glad that the US stepped up to the plate and overthrew the tyrants who had been oppressing them for so long. Did you sleep through the coverage of the Iraqi elections? Ordinary people said a resounding "FUCK YOU" to the terrorists and participated in the first free elections in decades. I think the response of those Iraqis is far more indicative of the prevailing sentiment than the largely foreign or Sunni terrorists.

It occurs to me to ask, if the terrorists are just frustrated patriots trying to tell the US to leave, why do they even bother? Firstly, they could probably just protest in the streets. Secondly, if they'd just wait a couple of years, the US would pull its troops out of its own volition. Obviously they're causing mayhem up and down the country not because they want Americans out, but because they want to strangle the infant Iraqi democracy in its cradle and restore some kind of Baathist dictatorship or fundamentalist theocracy.

No, my good friend, I sound like a true American that loves his/her country despite whatever shortcomings it may or may not have.

I'm sorry if you don't like that message. But then again that's your problem, ain't it?

May I ask which one are you? Do you envy my country, or do you hate the message of freedom for which it stands?

I think right now, most people on the world aren't overly fond of America. There are various polls and such backing this up - look for them on Goggle yourself. Personally, I think America is like the spoiled, rich only-child in the rich neighborhood. It gets everything it wants with very little effort, simply by throwing it's weight around. This does not create friends of the same level - it creates "friends" out of fear and dependence. The governments might call you friends - the people on the other hand, think differently.

You know y'all just want to give us a big hug. :fluffle:
I have seen those poles before and a lot of them are really close. India, South Korea, South Africa and some Eastern European nations were among the nations that admitted their approval of us.

On Topic: The US has the most widespread force in the history of the world and yet we are able to keep all that together. Pretty impresive I say, because logistics is more :headbang: than listening to a speech by Wesley Clark. :D

I believe Ein Deutscher used the phrase "I think, we have overcome this stage of civilization to realize that the utter annihilation of people is not a solution." Despite all the property destruction (now largely rebuilt) and the human losses (which we sadly cannot make right) caused by the war in Iraq, you simply cannot say that utter annihilation of any kind has taken place.

I'm not talking about utter annihilation. I don't think the dead civilians in Iraq feel any better about it because it wasn't 'total annihilation'.

Ein Deutscher']Does this mean anything to you?

Specifically his "Declaration of War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden%27s_Declaration_of_War)" does not freighten me all that much. Or read his Fatwa (http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm).

I take neither one very seriously either . You know why? Because they're blatant propaganda pieces designed to gull foolish elites into thinking that we can somehow negotiate with al-Qaeda, meet them halfway in some fashion.

Surely by taking out the WTC he's avenged himself adequately? I'm sure there were 10x times more people in the WTC than in those Lebanses towers. But he's still going strong, plotting attacks against Western targets.

He's also said that one of the reasons for his jihad against the West is that American troops were defiling Mecca and Medina by their presence in Saudi Arabia. Well, those troops are gone now, but Bin Laden remains.

You know why? Because appeasement doesn't work Bin Laden will keep coming until we're dead or he is. I don't know about you, but I prefer the latter and say, the sooner this bastard is in a pine box six feet deep, the better for Uncle Sam and the better for humanity.

The power of the United States military lies in the brave men and women that have, are, and will in the future, serve our nation. It's power comes from what it is supposed to represent- freedom, equality, and righteousness. It represents putting your own life on the line for the rights and freedoms of others. In effect, it represents everything we hold good.

Many may argue that the country is going in a slightly different direction, but the fact still remains that living in the United States is an honor.

Let the spamming from other, less fortunate peoples from other nations, begin. It should be apparent by now that in my 2 plus years posting in these forums that nobody can dissuade me from my patriotism and pride in my nation.

Those that hate my nation do it either out of envy or out of fear of letting the people have freedom. I hope one day that everybody in this world has the opportunities and freedoms afforded to me by my country. This right has come at a great cost to my fellow countrymen and women, and for that I am eternally grateful. Tyranny's days are numbered.

Long live freedom.

I'm not trying to pick on what you say but the men and women in many Nation's military are no different that the ones in the U.S. army. The U.S. Military's superior power comes from it's size, funding and technology.

Also, those who dislike your nation don't do so purely out on evny or because they 'hate your freedom', they might just have their own opinion and disagree with the way the U.S. goes about doing things. Damn, not everything is just plain black & white.

In theory, you can say what you want about whatever military. You can prove it unless you have a test, and that test is war. Iraq, sure, its a war, but not a conventional war.

For a war, such as in Iraq, I'd say Israel probably would be the best equipped. They live it daily. Don't get me wrong, put any other country's military in Iraq with the same numbers we have, with the same media coverage, I'm sure you'd probably get similiar results, probably even worse.

They US Military is a powerful machine, I'd doubt anyone one country could defeat it.

The difference between wars such as WW2 and Vietnam or Iraq, is that the people felt different. Failure meant more then just embarassment for an administration, it meant the defeat of a nation. It meant Japanese Soldiers and Nazi Soldiers would be in our country, occupying us.

We could clean out Iraq quickly and easily, but that would make civilian casualties sky rocket, destruction of cities complete. Its not because our military "sucks", Its because politics "sucks". It is necessary though.

As for training wise, I know the US Marine Corps does alot of training, and I would take it against any other foreign military establishment. Of course, the deadliest weapon in the world is the Marine and his Rifle.

Pride is also a good thing. We have plenty of that, maybe too much at times.

No, my good friend, I sound like a true American that loves his/her country despite whatever shortcomings it may or may not have.

I'm sorry if you don't like that message. But then again that's your problem, ain't it?

May I ask which one are you? Do you envy my country, or do you hate the message of freedom for which it stands?
I don't envy the US, but it does not stand for freedom or democracy. It abuses the name of freedom and democracy for it's own political and geostrategical goals.

I'm not talking about utter annihilation. I don't think the dead civilians in Iraq feel any better about it because it wasn't 'total annihilation'.

I don't dispute that. Unnecessary deaths are always a tragedy. But let's compare for a minute to wars of the past.

30 Years War: 1/3 of German population killed. Other combatant nations utterly exhausted, bankrupt and bloodied. Germany's political development retarded for the next two centuries.

Napoleonic Wars: 2 million-plus Europeans dead. France's client states bled white to support French military machine. Vast swathes of Germany, Poland, Spain, Russia laid waste.

WWI: 17 million Europeans dead. The "Lost Generation." Europe is never the same, loses sense of optimism and confidence. USA comes into its own as the richest, most powerful nation in the world. Many European nations disintegrate, collapse into bloody revolution or at least lose their world standing.

WWII: 52 million dead worldwide, including tens of millions of civilians. Atom bombs horrify the world. USSR basically wrecked, along with Germany and good chunks of France. Former Great Powers France and Britain lose colonial empires, become countries of the second order. Millions of Eastern Europeans enslaved under the Russian yoke. Dawn of 40-year Cold War with the Soviet Union.

Look at the modest selection above and then tell me, with a straight face, that the piddling affair in Iraq is comparable to those episodes of mass carnage. To the families of those affected by a dead relative, or a bombed house, the pain is the same no matter the size of the conflict. But there are a lot fewer of those unfortunates than at any other time in human history, and I think that is an important accomplishment.

Surely by taking out the WTC he's avenged himself adequately? I'm sure there were 10x times more people in the WTC than in those Lebanses towers. But he's still going strong, plotting attacks against Western targets.

He's also said that one of the reasons for his jihad against the West is that American troops were defiling Mecca and Medina by their presence in Saudi Arabia. Well, those troops are gone now, but Bin Laden remains.

You know why? Because appeasement doesn't work Bin Laden will keep coming until we're dead or he is. I don't know about you, but I prefer the latter and say, the sooner this bastard is in a pine box six feet deep, the better for Uncle Sam and the better for humanity.
I see, you feed happily from your government's propaganda. Goebbels would be happy to have such obedient and eager subjects to learn from him.
Here's my point of view from a Wikipedia entry (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Worldwide+perception+of+Osama+bin+Laden&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1):


Some Americans and Europeans do sympathize with him or his motives, accepting to some degree certain of his accusations and feeling there has been wrong on both sides.

Minority perceptions in the West seem to be that the US has strongly allied itself with, and armed, his traditional enemy, Israel, and that in large measure the West was responsible for its own harm by acting arrogantly, imperially, and without care, dominating other countries and interfering in an ill-advised manner for its own political ends, and that in some measure it was a natural response to expect for such behaviours.

Though I find the use of the term "the West" somewhat misleading, since it is solely the US, that is responsible for this. Not Europe. Thus why we've been spared any such accusations so far. Any terrorist activity happening here is a result of allying ourselves with America.

The power of the United States military lies in the brave men and women that have, are, and will in the future, serve our nation. It's power comes from what it is supposed to represent- freedom, equality, and righteousness. It represents putting your own life on the line for the rights and freedoms of others. In effect, it represents everything we hold good.

Many may argue that the country is going in a slightly different direction, but the fact still remains that living in the United States is an honor.

Let the spamming from other, less fortunate peoples from other nations, begin. It should be apparent by now that in my 2 plus years posting in these forums that nobody can dissuade me from my patriotism and pride in my nation.

Those that hate my nation do it either out of envy or out of fear of letting the people have freedom. I hope one day that everybody in this world has the opportunities and freedoms afforded to me by my country. This right has come at a great cost to my fellow countrymen and women, and for that I am eternally grateful. Tyranny's days are numbered.

Long live freedom.

(Stands up and applauds)


Ein Deutscher]Does this mean anything to you?

Specifically his "Declaration of War" does not freighten me all that much. Or read his Fatwa.

Sometimes I am shocked at how some Americans and most Europeans are able to lie to themeselves. It is truly sad. :(

Also, those who dislike your nation don't do so purely out on evny or because they 'hate your freedom', they might just have their own opinion and disagree with the way the U.S. goes about doing things. Damn, not everything is just plain black & white.

There is a large difference between hating the United States and disagreeing with it.

Hate is a raw emotion. Disagreement implies a peaceful, respectable opinion.

Notice I said "hate" in my post. If you disagree with the US's policies that is one thing, but when people go around burning flags, attacking our first lady (which has done absolutely nothing wrong), and calling us "pigs" as some do, then I ask you, is that merely a disagreement thing?

Those that hate us either must envy or hate what we stand for. Differing opinions do not justify the blatant disrespect paid to my country or what it stands for.

In civilized society we can respectively disagree. Those that hate us unrespectfully disagree way beyond the point of any civilized notion.

I don't dispute that. Unnecessary deaths are always a tragedy. But let's compare for a minute to wars of the past.

30 Years War: 1/3 of German population killed. Other combatant nations utterly exhausted, bankrupt and bloodied. Germany's political development retarded for the next two centuries.

Napoleonic Wars: 2 million-plus Europeans dead. France's client states bled white to support French military machine. Vast swathes of Germany, Poland, Spain, Russia laid waste.

WWI: 17 million Europeans dead. The "Lost Generation." Europe is never the same, loses sense of optimism and confidence. USA comes into its own as the richest, most powerful nation in the world. Many European nations disintegrate, collapse into bloody revolution or at least lose their world standing.

WWII: 52 million dead worldwide, including tens of millions of civilians. Atom bombs horrify the world. USSR basically wrecked, along with Germany and good chunks of France. Former Great Powers France and Britain lose colonial empires, become countries of the second order. Millions of Eastern Europeans enslaved under the Russian yoke. Dawn of 40-year Cold War with the Soviet Union.

Look at the modest selection above and then tell me, with a straight face, that the piddling affair in Iraq is comparable to those episodes of mass carnage. To the families of those affected by a dead relative, or a bombed house, the pain is the same no matter the size of the conflict. But there are a lot fewer of those unfortunates than at any other time in human history, and I think that is an important accomplishment.

Just because there aren't as many dead people doesn't make me feel like the civilian deaths in Iraq were Ok. For all the civilian deaths in ANY war, I detest them, regardless of which nation commited them.

My biggest gripe with the war in Iraq is why it's even occuring, at least with WWII germany was invading other nations and Japan was bombing shit like it was the new black. I hate to ever call war nessecary but in cases where a country is defending itself, it is nessecary. Iraq was not.

Sometimes I am shocked at how some Americans and most Europeans are able to lie to themeselves. It is truly sad. :(
Why do I lie to myself by reading what osama truly said? Are you disappointed that most of us in Europe do not succumb to the US propaganda that is being displayed day-in day-out in all medias?

There is a large difference between hating the United States and disagreeing with it.

Hate is a raw emotion. Disagreement implies a peaceful, respectable opinion.

Notice I said "hate" in my post. If you disagree with the US's policies that is one thing, but when people go around burning flags, attacking our first lady (which has done absolutely nothing wrong), and calling us "pigs" as some do, then I ask you, is that merely a disagreement thing?

Those that hate us either must envy or hate what we stand for. Differing opinions do not justify the blatant disrespect paid to my country or what it stands for.

In civilized society we can respectively disagree. Those that hate us unrespectfully disagree way beyond the point of any civilized notion.
Well I see - you want a double-standard for your own nation, but apply your own "corrective measures" to other countries as you please, huh? Did you respectfully disagree with Germany in WW2? Did you respectfully disagree with Vietnam in the 70s? Did you respectfully disagree with Hussein in 2003? I think not. The US reaps what it sows, it's that easy.

And right now, the US stands for war of aggression, human rights abuses, Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, the puppet called "war on terror". That is the current image of the US. Not the illusion of freedom and democracy you believe in.

Ein Deutscher']I don't envy the US, but it does not stand for freedom or democracy. It abuses the name of freedom and democracy for it's own political and geostrategical goals.

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html

Sure. We abuse freedom.

How about these people's freedom? If we had stood idle and done nothing to Hussein's tyranny, there is no telling how many more poor innocent people would have wound up like those that we've been digging up in Iraq for over a year now.

It's gotten so bad that we've stopped digging up the mass graves. There are simply too many of them to ever properly take care of them.

As France and Germany sat idle, innocent people starved, innocent people were percecuted, and innocent people died. France and Germany sold out these people in a promise for cheap oil from Saddam.

I ask you, who really abuses the idea of freedom for personal gain? How many people had to be thrown in prison for voicing their opinions? How many people had to die?

If and when you can answer that, I believe you'll see what I am talking about.

There is a large difference between hating the United States and disagreeing with it.

Hate is a raw emotion. Disagreement implies a peaceful, respectable opinion.

Notice I said "hate" in my post. If you disagree with the US's policies that is one thing, but when people go around burning flags, attacking our first lady (which has done absolutely nothing wrong), and calling us "pigs" as some do, then I ask you, is that merely a disagreement thing?

Those that hate us either must envy or hate what we stand for. Differing opinions do not justify the blatant disrespect paid to my country or what it stands for.

In civilized society we can respectively disagree. Those that hate us unrespectfully disagree way beyond the point of any civilized notion.

I did notice you said hate, which is probably why I used the term disagree instead. I just feel like you are probably sweeping many people who simply disagree with the U.S. in the hate catagory.

I try not to be insulting when discussing things like this, some people however let their emotion get the better of them and come across as hateful even though it's more frustration with the arguement than hate for Americans. I mean it's tempting for me to call certain Americans morons [though I try not to] when they bag out all of Islam and call terrorists Muslims, this is something that really annoys me because they don't take the time try and understand what they are talking about. Often this, and other things which annoy other people, are posted by people who are blindly patriotic. People then generalise these characteristics to others who are obviously patriotic and eventually those who express any pride in their country at all and this contributes to a lot of the anti-american sentiment that has grown on these boards and the outside world in recent times. So while I don't agree with the way these people express their opinions, I do feel that more people simply disagree with the U.S. rather than genuinly hate and despise it. Certainly there are those that do, terrorists for example, I just think more people are catagorised as such than should be. Though I understand why they would be from an American's point of view.

Ein Deutscher']I see, you feed happily from your government's propaganda. Goebbels would be happy to have such obedient and eager subjects to learn from him.
Here's my point of view from a Wikipedia entry (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Worldwide+perception+of+Osama+bin+Laden&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1): Minority perceptions in the West seem to be that the US has strongly allied itself with, and armed, his traditional enemy, Israel, and that in large measure the West was responsible for its own harm by acting arrogantly, imperially, and without care, dominating other countries and interfering in an ill-advised manner for its own political ends, and that in some measure it was a natural response to expect for such behaviours.

Though I find the use of the term "the West" somewhat misleading, since it is solely the US, that is responsible for this. Not Europe. Thus why we've been spared any such accusations so far. Any terrorist activity happening here is a result of allying ourselves with America.

I have nothing but scorn to pour on such ignorant and uninformed opinions. You presume that I feed on official propaganda. If you know of a television station which broadcasts such material, please let me know. You assume that I'm an American, which is not the case.

I particularly loved how you fell back on Wikipedia, a noted neutral source and fount of undisputed authority. The quote about Israel was particularly ingenious. Being a simple colonial, I fail to understand why everything bad in the world is blamed on Israel. Must be because the Jews run all the international banking syndicates (speaking of apt pupils, eh Deutscher?)

Does bin Laden have any legitimate grievances with Israel and America's support thereof? The answer is no. The reason Israel is his "traditional enemy" is because he's a RACIST BASTARD and he wishes, like so many other Muslim leaders in the past 60 years, that the Jewish dogs could be driven into the sea. Methinks that he will fail, just as the rest of the swine failed as well.

I see you agree with the proposition that America brought 9/11 on itself for its high-handed, arrogant imperialism. You sir, are exactly the target audience that b.L. was aiming for when he wrote up his bullshit manifestos. I see that, much like an obedient and eager student, you soaked up his propaganda in a manner befitting a sponge.

I'll make this last point very strongly: NOTHING a nation carries out in its foreign policy justifies the outright murder of 3000 innocent civilians. Bin Laden is a dark-age barbarian and a psychotic murderer on the scale of Caligula. He deserves nothing short of an excruciating and drawn-out death, deserted by his friends, mocked by his enemies and an example to those who would think of killing innocents just to make a political point.

Just because there aren't as many dead people doesn't make me feel like the civilian deaths in Iraq were Ok. For all the civilian deaths in ANY war, I detest them, regardless of which nation commited them.

My biggest gripe with the war in Iraq is why it's even occuring, at least with WWII germany was invading other nations and Japan was bombing shit like it was the new black. I hate to ever call war nessecary but in cases where a country is defending itself, it is nessecary. Iraq was not.

Hey, I've never said wars are a walk in the park, nor do I make light of civilian deaths. But when a war is necessary, at least we do our very utmost to prevent innocents from being hurt, and any deaths are purely accidental.

As for the Iraq war being absolutely necessary, in retrospect it's easy to say the answer is "no." However, I don't believe Bush deliberately lied to the American people, and he genuinely thought that Hussein was mere months away from developing nukes.

Also, wasn't it high time we took the dictator out with the trash? Iraq's future is much brighter now that Hussein is out of power. Millions of Iraqis are better off than they were three years ago, and I hope the outlook for the next generation only gets better. I think that's all I need to say.

Ein Deutscher]Why do I lie to myself by reading what osama truly said? Are you disappointed that most of us in Europe do not succumb to the US propaganda that is being displayed day-in day-out in all medias?

You honestly believe that he won't come after you? He and his ilk seek the death of all non-Muslims. They do not deny this, it is their religion. A religion of hate fanatical Islam is. You lie to yourself by denying this. They have no special hatred toward the US over Europe. We are simply the more convenient scapegoat, since we are the more powerful. They use us to brainwash their people into blindly following them. You recently posted some of their material. Their indoctrination in hate is so complete that young Saudi men, in the prime of their lives, suicidaly blow themselves up. Not to restore freedom, but to destroy it, not to liberate, but enslave, not to kill enemy militants but their fellow Muslims. They have killed many civilians. Where is the European outrage against this? It can't be found, at least not recently. Instead it is misdirected toward the US and you grow to hate us for a reason I can not understand. I say some very silly things on these forums, it is my personality, but I will say this now that I am being serious, I will never hate Europe, no matter the insults you sling at us. God Bless y'all, may your eyes be opened to the truth.

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html

Sure. We abuse freedom.

How about these people's freedom? If we had stood idle and done nothing to Hussein's tyranny, there is no telling how many more poor innocent people would have wound up like those that we've been digging up in Iraq for over a year now.

It's gotten so bad that we've stopped digging up the mass graves. There are simply too many of them to ever properly take care of them.

As France and Germany sat idle, innocent people starved, innocent people were percecuted, and innocent people died. France and Germany sold out these people in a promise for cheap oil from Saddam.

I ask you, who really abuses the idea of freedom for personal gain? How many people had to be thrown in prison for voicing their opinions? How many people had to die?

If and when you can answer that, I believe you'll see what I am talking about.
Hah, you dare accusing Germany and France of being the idle bystanders as Saddam did his atrocities in the 80s? You gotta be kidding. It was the US who made him what he was and benefitted from his activities. It was US firms who primarily benefitted from circumventing the sanctions. It was the US, who kept these sanctions in place, which caused the death of the Iraqi civilians by starvation. Not France nor Germany! In fact, Germany had very little to do with Iraq on a political and economic basis. Remove the plank from your own eye before pointing at the speck in someone else's. This is just pathetic. :rolleyes:

Ein Deutscher']Well I see - you want a double-standard for your own nation, but apply your own "corrective measures" to other countries as you please, huh? Did you respectfully disagree with Germany in WW2? Did you respectfully disagree with Vietnam in the 70s? Did you respectfully disagree with Hussein in 2003? I think not. The US reaps what it sows, it's that easy.

And right now, the US stands for war of aggression, human rights abuses, Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, the puppet called "war on terror". That is the current image of the US. Not the illusion of freedom and democracy you believe in.

Let me get this one point by point:

1. Peacefully disagree with Germany in WW2. Keep in mind the US did not officially enter WWII until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor Dec 7, 1941. Germany had been committing genocide of the Jewish people (6 million) and killing 20 million Russians. Would you have preferred that the US just not intervene? Would you have rather all the Jewish people been erradicated?

2. Vietnam. It was perhaps the biggest mistake the US has ever made (save helping to defeat Germany, right???). At the time the world was uncertain about communism, and, since nuclear weapons were being developed in Vietnam's fellow communist nations, it could be argued that we were justified in trying to stop the spread of communism. Would you have liked that to countinue too?

3. Iraq. Civilized nations should have very little tollerance for dictators that execute their own civilians and are known to harbor terrorists. Would you prefer that we kept ignoring the problem???

All three instances you mentioned there were "human rights violations" occuring before the US was involved. Admittedly a select few on our side have commited these crimes, and they will be held accountable. If you wish to hold every American accountable for the actions of a few, then I must hold every German accountable for Hitler, every Russian for Stalin...

4. "That is the current image of the US." Well, if that's all you can see, then I must say you are blind my friend. I'm sorry, but again, that's your problem.

5. "Not the illusion of freedom and democracy you believe in." Again, if you have not experienced freedom and democracy as it is in the US (I assume you're a foreigner), then how can you say for sure that it does not exist (ie an illusion?). In my country we have elections. In my country I, Joe Citizen, can speak freely without fear of percecution. I have the right to put to ballot any initiative to create nearly any action I want. It is real.

There is a reason why the US has such a problem with immigration. We are a nation created and maintained by immigrants. They come here for freedom and opportunity.

The next time Mexico or Cuba have an immigration problem, please, let me know.

Ein Deutscher']Well I see - you want a double-standard for your own nation, but apply your own "corrective measures" to other countries as you please, huh? Did you respectfully disagree with Germany in WW2? Did you respectfully disagree with Vietnam in the 70s? Did you respectfully disagree with Hussein in 2003? I think not. The US reaps what it sows, it's that easy.

And right now, the US stands for war of aggression, human rights abuses, Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, the puppet called "war on terror". That is the current image of the US. Not the illusion of freedom and democracy you believe in.

Hey, Chamberlain tried to "respectfully disagree" with Herr Hitler for most of the 1930's, and look where that landed us. Hitler deserved everything he got, and more.

As a matter of fact, why *should* we "respectfully disagree" with murderous tyrannies around the globe? Respectful disagreements happen between civilized people. That description does not apply to the Third Reich, commie Vietnam, or Saddam Hussein. One cannot peacefully co-exist with a despotism, just as one cannot share a house with a wild wolf.

I laugh at your weak appeal to the human rights canard. Let me explain the difference between America and its enemies to you. I'll even speak slowly so you understand. When there are human rights abuses in Camp X-Ray or at Abu Ghraib, they are the work of low-ranking soldiers acting alone and are often the product of insuffient training, supervision or both. When these human rights abuses are found out, inquiries are launched, apologies are made, and the perpetrators are punished.

Human rights abuses under Saddam Hussein's evil regime were directed by the country's leadership, and were systematized into a network of prisons and torture chambers run by the elite of the Iraqi armed forces. Any who spoke out against them were silenced in their turn. When the world found out about them, it did -- sweet fuck-all.

That, my friend, is the difference between a civilized nation and a savage despotism, in a nutshell.

I'll make this last point very strongly: NOTHING a nation carries out in its foreign policy justifies the outright murder of 3000 innocent civilians. Bin Laden is a dark-age barbarian and a psychotic murderer on the scale of Caligula. He deserves nothing short of an excruciating and drawn-out death, deserted by his friends, mocked by his enemies and an example to those who would think of killing innocents just to make a political point.
I encourage you to do the same to George W. Bush, Tony Blair, and all other government leaders who supported the war against Iraq. Unless of course, we have here yet another double-standard that protects the same atrocities commited by so-called western leaders.

From my experience in the U.S. military I would say that the "Morale and discipline" is the best one out of the choices. For we are the most disciplined and well trained soldiers the world has ever witness, but everything else is a close second. So I say it's pretty well-rounded.

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~

You honestly believe that he won't come after you? He and his ilk seek the death of all non-Muslims. They do not deny this, it is their religion. A religion of hate fanatical Islam is. You lie to yourself by denying this. They have no special hatred toward the US over Europe. We are simply the more convenient scapegoat, since we are the more powerful. They use us to brainwash their people into blindly following them. You recently posted some of their material. Their indoctrination in hate is so complete that young Saudi men, in the prime of their lives, suicidaly blow themselves up. Not to restore freedom, but to destroy it, not to liberate, but enslave, not to kill enemy militants but their fellow Muslims. They have killed many civilians. Where is the European outrage against this? It can't be found, at least not recently. Instead it is misdirected toward the US and you grow to hate us for a reason I can not understand. I say some very silly things on these forums, it is my personality, but I will say this now that I am being serious, I will never hate Europe, no matter the insults you sling at us. God Bless y'all, may your eyes be opened to the truth.
Oh so that is why German soldiers face suicide bombers in Afghanistan on a daily basis - not. Or that is why we have such horrible terrorist attacks each year here in Germany or most other European countries for that matter. I don't buy your propaganda. You just repeat what your government taught you, whereas I made up my mind on my own.

Ein Deutscher']I encourage you to do the same to George W. Bush, Tony Blair, and all other government leaders who supported the war against Iraq. Unless of course, we have here yet another double-standard that protects the same atrocities commited by so-called western leaders.

Do you take classes in order to blind yourself to the truth, or does double-thing just come naturally?

If you can show me an instance where GWB, Tony Blair, or any other Western leader has killed thousands of civilians, solely to make a political point (the operative clause!), I'll not only eat my hat, I'll concede the debate to you as well.

Ein Deutscher']Oh so that is why German soldiers face suicide bombers in Afghanistan on a daily basis - not. Or that is why we have such horrible terrorist attacks each year here in Germany or most other European countries for that matter. I don't buy your propaganda. You just repeat what your government taught you, whereas I made up my mind on my own.

Bah, the terrorists can afford to ignore Europe for the time being. You are weak, and your most frequent response is to appease the terrorists.

America is strong, and their most frequent response is to go kill the terrorists. Clearly they are the greater threat. If the US went under to the forces of militant Islam, Europe would fall like a ripe plum.

Ein Deutscher']Hah, you dare accusing Germany and France of being the idle bystanders as Saddam did his atrocities in the 80s? You gotta be kidding. It was the US who made him what he was and benefitted from his activities. It was US firms who primarily benefitted from circumventing the sanctions. It was the US, who kept these sanctions in place, which caused the death of the Iraqi civilians by starvation. Not France nor Germany! In fact, Germany had very little to do with Iraq on a political and economic basis. Remove the plank from your own eye before pointing at the speck in someone else's. This is just pathetic. :rolleyes:

I am glad you decided to degrade this debate into a debacle by starting the namecalling.

It has become blatantly obvious that your biases will not allow you to see the US for what a US citizen believes it is. People are fed anti-Americanism through the media on a daily basis and, as I can now see, for some it seems to be sticking.

I wish you well in whichever country you live in. Just pray it never needs the assistance of the US, because obviously we are undeserving of your respect.

Ein Deutscher']Hah, you dare accusing Germany and France of being the idle bystanders as Saddam did his atrocities in the 80s? You gotta be kidding. It was the US who made him what he was and benefitted from his activities. It was US firms who primarily benefitted from circumventing the sanctions. It was the US, who kept these sanctions in place, which caused the death of the Iraqi civilians by starvation. Not France nor Germany! In fact, Germany had very little to do with Iraq on a political and economic basis. Remove the plank from your own eye before pointing at the speck in someone else's. This is just pathetic. :rolleyes:

France sold more weaponry to Iraq except for the USSR. Don't pretend that Old Europe were innocent bystanders during the dictatorship of Hussein.

Actually, the US would have preferred that the Iraqis were not dying of starvation. It was the evil dictator who starved his own people, not America.

Hey, Chamberlain tried to "respectfully disagree" with Herr Hitler for most of the 1930's, and look where that landed us. Hitler deserved everything he got, and more.

As a matter of fact, why *should* we "respectfully disagree" with murderous tyrannies around the globe? Respectful disagreements happen between civilized people. That description does not apply to the Third Reich, commie Vietnam, or Saddam Hussein. One cannot peacefully co-exist with a despotism, just as one cannot share a house with a wild wolf.

I laugh at your weak appeal to the human rights canard. Let me explain the difference between America and its enemies to you. I'll even speak slowly so you understand. When there are human rights abuses in Camp X-Ray or at Abu Ghraib, they are the work of low-ranking soldiers acting alone and are often the product of insuffient training, supervision or both. When these human rights abuses are found out, inquiries are launched, apologies are made, and the perpetrators are punished.

Human rights abuses under Saddam Hussein's evil regime were directed by the country's leadership, and were systematized into a network of prisons and torture chambers run by the elite of the Iraqi armed forces. Any who spoke out against them were silenced in their turn. When the world found out about them, it did -- sweet fuck-all.

That, my friend, is the difference between a civilized nation and a savage despotism, in a nutshell.
Well for being such a despot, the US surely co-existed with Saddam during the 80s quite fine. Can you explain that to me? No, of course not. Because this "respectfully disagree" crap only applies as long as it is opportune. This has always been how real politik is done and this is how the US has always acted. You respectfully disagree with people who just now happen to be the ally of the time (i.e. Pakistan's "president") and attack those who stand in your way of whatever you want. Double-standards everywhere - this is what I find so annoying.

I wish you well in whichever country you live in. Just pray it never needs the assistance of the US, because obviously we are undeserving of your respect.

Gee, we've only had to go in and beat on Germany twice. Maybe this time we should come as conquerors, not as liberators. Then maybe we'll hear some appreciation for our largesse and maybe even -- gasp! -- gratitude for our sacrifices from the other side of the pond.

France sold more weaponry to Iraq except for the USSR. Don't pretend that Old Europe were innocent bystanders during the dictatorship of Hussein.

Actually, the US would have preferred that the Iraqis were not dying of starvation. It was the evil dictator who starved his own people, not America.
I'm not claiming that Old Europe were innocent bystanders. However I refuse to accept that France, Russia or even Germany were the sole parties to blame for Husseins long defiance of the UN. I see plenty Americans who try to make their country appear as innocent as a rose-cheeked baby. This is entirely untrue and has just recently been debunked. One man said it quite fittingly recently - George Galloway in front of the US Senate. Maybe you should watch his speech on C-Span sometime.

It must be technological superiority. It's definitely not the idiots that point the thing and press the trigger.

Gee, we've only had to go in and beat on Germany twice. Maybe this time we should come as conquerors, not as liberators. Then maybe we'll hear some appreciation for our largesse and maybe even -- gasp! -- gratitude for our sacrifices from the other side of the pond.
The US *had* our respect. You lost it when you started the Iraq war in 2003. Remember - respectfully disagree. We are not your vasalls to march in tune with your president's song. If you must start adventures that cost you the last of your credibility, please do so, without us.

Gee, we've only had to go in and beat on Germany twice. Maybe this time we should come as conquerors, not as liberators. Then maybe we'll hear some appreciation for our largesse and maybe even -- gasp! -- gratitude for our sacrifices from the other side of the pond.

ROFLMAO! That's perhaps the funniest thing I've heard all day!

Ein Deutscher']Well for being such a despot, the US surely co-existed with Saddam during the 80s quite fine.

I have one word for you: Realpolitik.

The USA supported Saddam during the 80s because Iran was the more pressing enemy at the time. It would have been nice if US policy had just opposed them all, but sadly reality intervened. Even an elephant can't destroy a whole colony of army ants.

We work one on at a time, and maybe things will be better in 50 years.

It must be technological superiority. It's definitely not the idiots that point the thing and press the trigger.

I challenge you to ask any question to the people that actually run these state-of-the-art war machines. I'd think you might be surprised that they know more than the almighty Asengard!

Do you take classes in order to blind yourself to the truth, or does double-thing just come naturally?

If you can show me an instance where GWB, Tony Blair, or any other Western leader has killed thousands of civilians, solely to make a political point (the operative clause!), I'll not only eat my hat, I'll concede the debate to you as well.
The entire Iraq war was a political point. Are you blind or do you just refuse to see it? And unarguably, it cost the lives of multiple thousands if not hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

Ein Deutscher']The US *had* our respect. You lost it when you started the Iraq war in 2003. Remember - respectfully disagree. We are not your vasalls to march in tune with your president's song. If you must start adventures that cost you the last of your credibility, please do so, without us.

And we did. But we will never forget those that followed us and those that chose to remain idle and criticize.

And we will remember who our friends are in their time of need. Simple.

I have one word for you: Realpolitik.

The USA supported Saddam during the 80s because Iran was the more pressing enemy at the time. It would have been nice if US policy had just opposed them all, but sadly reality intervened. Even an elephant can't destroy a whole colony of army ants.

We work one on at a time, and maybe things will be better in 50 years.
Well duh, you just repeated what I already said. Thus your claim that the US could not have co-existed with Saddam, is gone. The US DID co-exist with Saddam and even armed him. Your Colin Powell was so cocky and self-assured in front of the UN before the Iraq war, because he knew that Hussein had to have WMD, because the US kept the bill! Unfortunately he forgot that the weapons inspectors did good work and that 2 decades cause quite some disintegration on such sensitive material...

Ein Deutscher']The US *had* our respect. You lost it when you started the Iraq war in 2003. Remember - respectfully disagree. We are not your vasalls to march in tune with your president's song. If you must start adventures that cost you the last of your credibility, please do so, without us.

Hogwash. Schroeder's re-election campaign was based on anti-American hysteria, and that was before the war. Also, do you claim to speak for Europe, or merely for Germany? I will grant you that Germany has been, by and large, a good friend during the Cold War. France, however, represents all that is wrong with Europe.

Frankly, if Europe had confined itself to polite disagreement, then you wouldn't be seeing half as much Euro-bashing in the US as there is now. What cost you your credibility was your unrelenting obstructionism to the war. France threatened to veto any final UN resolution even before one was tabled, and then was baffled when the US chose simply to ignore the United Nations and go its own way. That is not the behavior of an old friend and trusted ally, but of an enemy.

Ein Deutscher']The entire Iraq war was a political point. Are you blind or do you just refuse to see it? And unarguably, it cost the lives of multiple thousands if not hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

I digress again to the following address. Perhaps you ought to actually read it this time (or at least look at the pictures).

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html

And we did. But we will never forget those that followed us and those that chose to remain idle and criticize.

And we will remember who our friends are in their time of need. Simple.
Friends can accept that friends disagree. What you want is servitude and slavery. With that - you have once again lost credibility in your claim that the US stands for freedom or democracy. Neither is true, because the US does not value either.

Ein Deutscher']Well duh, you just repeated what I already said. Thus your claim that the US could not have co-existed with Saddam, is gone. The US DID co-exist with Saddam and even armed him.

Again, you misread what I wrote. When I compared co-existence to living with a wolf, I did not choose that metaphor by accident. I imagine it'd be possible to live with a wolf for quite some time without incident. However, sooner or later, one of you has got to go. In the case of America vs. Iraq, that moment came in 2003.

PS, glad I could oblige you, Weitzel :)

Ein Deutscher']Friends can accept that friends disagree. What you want is servitude and slavery. With that - you have once again lost credibility in your claim that the US stands for freedom or democracy. Neither is true, because the US does not value either.

My God, it's no wonder that Europeans are always trumpeting their superiority over us -- they can read minds! Pray tell, just how in the blue fuck do you know we expect the European states to be our servants, bowing and scraping at our every whim?

The US does not value freedom or democracy, which is why they fought Germany. Too much democracy under the Third Reich!

Also, tell me if the Coalition went to Iraq simply to murder as many civilians as they could. Rather the opposite, I should think.

Ein Deutscher']Friends can accept that friends disagree. What you want is servitude and slavery. With that - you have once again lost credibility in your claim that the US stands for freedom or democracy. Neither is true, because the US does not value either.

So what you want to do is bash the US, but when you need something we're all buddy-buddy?

Allies and friends have eachother's back (or at least that's how we do things in America).

What always amazes me is that whenever there's a world crisis like the Tsunami the US is the first one to be asked for aid and then criticized when we don't give enough.

It's simple. If you and your country have everything figured out as you so claim you do, then by god next time you have a problem solve it yourselves. Don't expect to stab someone in the back and the next minute expect them to bend over backwards to help you.

"With that - you have once again lost credibility in your claim that the US stands for freedom or democracy. Neither is true, because the US does not value either."

That has absolutely nothing to do with the current topic, and you know it. Again, if you have never experienced freedom American style, then for gods sake do not even pretend to know that it does not exist.

I digress again to the following address. Perhaps you ought to actually read it this time (or at least look at the pictures).

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html
I don't know how these people ended up like that. They may have been killed by Hussein or not. I am not overly convinced to trust into a US government source. I've seen such exaggerations and false constructs of history after WW2 in combination with Nazi Germany, to make the atrocities look worse than they were. I'd not be surprised, if this "art" has since been perfected by the US. I'll remain sceptical until this sort of thing has been investigated by independent sources. Btw somewhere the hundreds of thousands of starved Iraqis had to end up, no? Maybe some of them are among those that are now declared as executed by Hussein?

Independent sources, such as Amnesty International? Those are the assclowns who recently compared Guantanamo to the horrors of the gulag.

Ein Deutscher]One man said it quite fittingly recently - George Galloway in front of the US Senate. Maybe you should watch his speech on C-Span sometime.

:eek: By citing a man involved in the oil-for-food scandal (which starved thousands of Iraqis) you show your blindness. Certain Elitist European politicians betrayed the world with this and you praise one of them. You are more lost than I had thought..

Ein Deutscher']I don't know how these people ended up like that. They may have been killed by Hussein or not. I am not overly convinced to trust into a US government source. I've seen such exaggerations and false constructs of history after WW2 in combination with Nazi Germany, to make the atrocities look worse than they were. I'd not be surprised, if this "art" has since been perfected by the US. I'll remain sceptical until this sort of thing has been investigated by independent sources. Btw somewhere the hundreds of thousands of starved Iraqis had to end up, no? Maybe some of them are among those that are now declared as executed by Hussein?

We've been shipping in countless of thousands of tons of food and supplies to Iraq. We've rebuilt hospitals and schools that rival some of their American counterparts. Don't even think for a minute we do not care about the Iraqis.

http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000374.php

If you really wanted to be an informed opinionist, then I'd suggest even a simple google search:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=iraq+graves&btnG=Search

*edit* What more proof do you need? Do you personally have to witness Saddam killing thousands of people before you'd believe it? Do you have to have a notorized copy of his identification? Do you need a DNA analysis to prove Saddam is actually Saddam?

Allies and friends have eachother's back (or at least that's how we do things in America).


We're not required to join you into illegal adventures. We may be allied - this does not mean that we help you in attacking other nations based on stuff such as the manfucatured "Evidence" of WMD in Iraq. The coalition has been dubbed "Coalition of the Billing" or "Coalition of the Coerced" for a reason. The government leaders here in Europe, who pledged alliance to the US and helped in the Iraq war, did so against the will of their respective populations. We value democracy a little more than that - although it was much more a question of election campaign in 2002, rather than a democratic decision. Because we people are never asked in such things - we didn't even get to vote on the EU "constitution". Bah.

We've been shipping in countless of thousands of tons of food and supplies to Iraq. We've rebuilt hospitals and schools that rival some of their American counterparts. Don't even think for a minute we do not care about the Iraqis.

http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000374.php

If you really wanted to be an informed opinionist, then I'd suggest even a simple google search:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=iraq+graves&btnG=Search
I am eternally sorry for taking things like Abu Ghraib or Gitmo into consideration when doubting the honesty of the US government and it's presentations after the full out truth it presented to the UN before the Iraq war. Sorry, but fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

:eek: By citing a man involved in the oil-for-food scandal (which starved thousands of Iraqis) you show your blindness. Certain Elitist European politicians betrayed the world with this and you praise one of them. You are more lost than I had thought..
Was your senate able to prove that Galloway was involved in the oil-for-food scandal? I think not. In fact, Galloway spanked the US senate good and spoke out what many people think. I applaud him and his courage.

Ein Deutscher']We're not required to join you into illegal adventures. We may be allied - this does not mean that we help you in attacking other nations based on stuff such as the manfucatured "Evidence" of WMD in Iraq. The coalition has been dubbed "Coalition of the Billing" or "Coalition of the Coerced" for a reason. The government leaders here in Europe, who pledged alliance to the US and helped in the Iraq war, did so against the will of their respective populations. We value democracy a little more than that - although it was much more a question of election campaign in 2002, rather than a democratic decision. Because we people are never asked in such things - we didn't even get to vote on the EU "constitution". Bah.

But that's exactly the thing: Europe did not stand aside and say, "Hey. We think that what you're doing is wrong, and we wish you'd find another way. We say this as your friend," and leave it at that. It was the people who actively worked against America, doing everything in their power to thwart her aims, who left a sour taste in Americans' mouths.

Funny how you're complaining that "we the people" are never consulted on great matters, yet you say that it's America that doesn't value freedom and democracy. Do you see the delicious irony?

Ein Deutscher']We're not required to join you into illegal adventures. We may be allied - this does not mean that we help you in attacking other nations based on stuff such as the manfucatured "Evidence" of WMD in Iraq. The coalition has been dubbed "Coalition of the Billing" or "Coalition of the Coerced" for a reason. The government leaders here in Europe, who pledged alliance to the US and helped in the Iraq war, did so against the will of their respective populations. We value democracy a little more than that - although it was much more a question of election campaign in 2002, rather than a democratic decision. Because we people are never asked in such things - we didn't even get to vote on the EU "constitution". Bah.

And there is absolutely nothing saying that we're required to help you if and when you need it.

We clear?

Let us just face it. The time of US might is nearly over. Time for China to rule... please let me be in hiding by that time...

And I happen to speak Chinese very well

HU ZONGLI WAN SUIIIIIIII

Independent sources, such as Amnesty International? Those are the assclowns who recently compared Guantanamo to the horrors of the gulag.
I'll watch the trial against Hussein with great interest. It's going to be interesting how his lawyers justify what "he" has done.

Ein Deutscher']I am eternally sorry for taking things like Abu Ghraib or Gitmo into consideration when doubting the honesty of the US government and it's presentations after the full out truth it presented to the UN before the Iraq war. Sorry, but fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Yes, there were mistakes made. There is nobody here questioning that. However, the intent of the violation of human rights was only with those select few soldiers that were involved.

I dare you to travel to Iraq and tell the families that their loved ones weren't killed by Saddam. I'd like to see how long you last.

Don't trust us? Fine. We know we can't trust France and Germany in times of need. At least now the feeling is mutual. Don't ever, ever expect anything from the US again if that is your attitude, and we won't expect anything from you either.

And I happen to speak Chinese very well

HU ZONGLI WAN SUIIIIIIII

Banzai!!!!

No, wait . . . that was a different up-and-coming Far Eastern despotism.

And there is absolutely nothing saying that we're required to help you if and when you need it.

We clear?
Sure. We never asked you to "help" us :P

Ein Deutscher']Sure. We never asked you to "help" us :P

I assume you're German?

Ein Deutscher']Sure. We never asked you to "help" us :P

Do the letters NATO ring a bell?

Live with it, China has gone capitalist and it's beatng the US at it's own game. Personally I find it a wonderful irony.

On the US armed forces I feel that it's mostly a big dick to wave. 400 billion on 'defence' is about 3 times what China spends and China has about 4x the US population IIRC.

Says something don't it.

Ein Deutscher]Was your senate able to prove that Galloway was involved in the oil-for-food scandal? I think not. In fact, Galloway spanked the US senate good and spoke out what many people think. I applaud him and his courage.

I dare you to read this (http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8228) . Go on you know you want to. :D

Live with it, China has gone capitalist and it's beatng the US at it's own game. Personally I find it a wonderful irony.

On the US armed forces I feel that it's mostly a big dick to wave. 400 billion on 'defence' is about 3 times what China spends and China has about 4x the US population IIRC.

Says something don't it.

Have you read Paul Kennedy's "Rise and Fall of the Great Powers?" A bit dated now, but one thing that he pointed out was how powers that feel themselves to be under threat will instinctually spend more on defence. They were declining to begin with because their economy was weakening, and writing ever bigger cheques to the military sure didn't help.

Yes, there were mistakes made. There is nobody here questioning that. However, the intent of the violation of human rights was only with those select few soldiers that were involved.

I dare you to travel to Iraq and tell the families that their loved ones weren't killed by Saddam. I'd like to see how long you last.

Don't trust us? Fine. We know we can't trust France and Germany in times of need. At least now the feeling is mutual. Don't ever, ever expect anything from the US again if that is your attitude, and we won't expect anything from you either.
Good. Let's expect nothing from each other. We could thus dissolve NATO and the alliance and finally cut this useless band. In the future, the US is going to continue acting unilaterally anyway - militarizing space and attacking nations as it sees fit - provided that it has the military for it - which doesn't look like it right now.

And no, Gitmo is a systemic problem. A result of the arrogance of the US, to think that it can elevate itself over the rule of law, one of the primary pillars of democracy. The propaganda and lies spread before the Iraq war to possibly convince the international community also failed.

<<I dare you to read this . Go on you know you want to. >>

How nice to see the lack of bias in the media.

Looks bad for Galloway. Like I care, he's an asshole, the only reason we ike him is the fact that he is willing to step up and wave the US's arrogance and idiocy in it's face.

The fact that the US was responsible for more Oil-for-food scamming than anyone else means nowt of course.

The fact that the US was responsible for more Oil-for-food scamming than anyone else means nowt of course.

Could you provide some proof of this, please?

Ein Deutscher']Good. Let's expect nothing from each other. We could thus dissolve NATO and the alliance and finally cut this useless band. In the future, the US is going to continue acting unilaterally anyway - militarizing space and attacking nations as it sees fit - provided that it has the military for it - which doesn't look like it right now.

And no, Gitmo is a systemic problem. A result of the arrogance of the US, to think that it can elevate itself over the rule of law, one of the primary pillars of democracy. The propaganda and lies spread before the Iraq war to possibly convince the international community also failed.

There's nothing saying that NATO would have to go away; just Germany and France's involvement in it.

And really, I am tired of your assertation that the attrocities at Gitmo is part of a "systemic problem". That is mere opinion, one of which is based solely on the fact that your media has brain washed you into thinking that the US is wholly evil.

Don't like it when somebody calls your source for information biased? Don't even think for a minute that the US is the only source with bias. YOUR SOURCES HAVE BIAS TOO!!!

Could you provide some proof of this, please?

We allowed countries like Germany and institutions like the UN to bypass security protocols.

In other words, we let it happen. There's no proof that the US government was behind any plot to circumvent the very sanctions that we helped to impose.

Could you provide some proof of this, please?

Glad to. Look at the bottom, most of it is Galloway but the important bit is in the last section. (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/17/oil.food/)

I tried to find some on Fox but they were just ranting about the UN as usual. Woulda linked the Guardian but I hear it's a commie rag these days.

We allowed countries like Germany and institutions like the UN to bypass security protocols.

In other words, we let it happen. There's no proof that the US government was behind any plot to circumvent the very sanctions that we helped to impose.

Most interesting. I haven't actually heard allegations of massive US profits before, nor did I know that Uncle Sam might have made the embezzers' task easier.

I'll have to do a little more research on Oil-for-Food after I've had a bit of sleep. It's nearly 6 am, and way past my bedtime ;) . Reading your posts has been a pleasure, Weitzel (can I call you Dubya?). Well done.

Edit: thanks for the link, Wurzelmania. I'll check it out tomorrow.

Live with it, China has gone capitalist and it's beatng the US at it's own game. Personally I find it a wonderful irony.

Irony my ass. China has been trading and setting up merchant empires, trade routes, and overall capitalistic style civilization for thousands of years. Their 'communist' tryst did nothing to dampen their capitalist spirits.

Never mind that China tries as hard as possible to not piss anyone off currently and is trying to sustain a 'peaceful development' and doesn't really want to generate ill will.

On the US armed forces I feel that it's mostly a big dick to wave. 400 billion on 'defence' is about 3 times what China spends and China has about 4x the US population IIRC.

China doesn't have any reason to spend as much as the US because China doesn't feel the need to have hundreds of military bases spread around the world. Nor is China busy enforcing DMZs between North and South Korea. Nor is China worried about protecting oil fields, operating hospitals, aiding countries (outside of direct cash flows).

Glad to. Look at the bottom, most of it is Galloway but the important bit is in the last section. (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/17/oil.food/)

If I'm not mistaken most of the companies mentioned are international corporations....

Person A steals a car from Person B. Person A then sells you, an unsuspecting victim, Person B's car. Does that make you responsible for Person A stealing the car?

Only in the bannana republic (and maybe Germany) might anyone ever consider you being responsible for another person's illegal actions.

Most interesting. I haven't actually heard allegations of massive US profits before, nor did I know that Uncle Sam might have made the embezzers' task easier.

I'll have to do a little more research on Oil-for-Food after I've had a bit of sleep. It's nearly 6 am, and way past my bedtime ;) . Reading your posts has been a pleasure, Weitzel (can I call you Dubya?). Well done.

Edit: thanks for the link, Wurzelmania. I'll check it out tomorrow.

And I yours, Gramnonia. Well done ;-)

Irony my ass. China has been trading and setting up merchant empires, trade routes, and overall capitalistic style civilization for thousands of years. Their 'communist' tryst did nothing to dampen their capitalist spirits.

Aside from the bit where they went commie 50 years ago and pretty much shattered their own economy doing it, in fact they made the best attempt at communism of any organsised state ever.

Never mind that China tries as hard as possible to not piss anyone off currently and is trying to sustain a 'peaceful development' and doesn't really want to generate ill will.

I'm good with that. It's certainly better than barging around like a Scouse who can't find the bastard who spilled his pint.

China doesn't have any reason to spend as much as the US because China doesn't feel the need to have hundreds of military bases spread around the world. Again, I'm good with that. Not having foreign military in my country would be nice Nor is China busy enforcing DMZs between North and South Korea. Nor is China worried about protecting oil fields, operating hospitals, aiding countries (outside of direct cash flows)Aside from things like the aid to the asian countries ht by the Tsunami of course. It kinda gave more than the US there and it's been doing it for a while, just no-one reports it.

Replies in bold.

Oh my God - can you Americans get off your high horse about World War II?

First off, you only joined in because you got attacked in Pearl Harbour.

Second, if you hadn't joined in - yes, Europe may well have lost the war against Hitler et al, but you (as Americans) would have been in a far worse situation. Think of it - an Entire Europe/Asian front united against the 'freedom' in the West. You wouldn't have been able to put up much of a fight against the combined armies of Hitler, once Britain and the Allies had fallen.

At least our soldiers rarely, if ever, manage to kill people in friendly fire...unlike some I could mention.

Did any of the Brits here watch the program on Sunday night called The Last Detective? Anyone pick up the subtle hints through some of the British Army - especially the guy who actually committed the crime - about the 'friendly fire' from the Americans in Iraq?

Don't like it when somebody calls your source for information biased? Don't even think for a minute that the US is the only source with bias. YOUR SOURCES HAVE BIAS TOO!!!
Incidentially, I get my news about the US primarily from www.reuters.com, a very respected news agency, CNN.com, MSNBC, BBC and occassionally from my ISP's mainsite www.t-online.de (rarely though, since the English news sites are always faster with US news). Thus, the claim that *my* news sources are biased means you acknowledge that US news sources and UK news sources are biased. Thank you.

Replies in bold.

Pain in the ass... Learn how to use quote tags.

Aside from the bit where they went commie 50 years ago and pretty much shattered their own economy doing it, in fact they made the best attempt at communism of any organsised state ever.

Yes see the part where it says 'tryst'? :rolleyes:

Aside from things like the aid to the asian countries ht by the Tsunami of course. It kinda gave more than the US there and it's been doing it for a while, just no-one reports it.

See direct cash flow mention. China is actually very involved in 3rd world aid efforts and routinely sides with the 3rd world nations in the UN. As far as the tsunami, the overall aid from America (government and personal) beat virtually any other nation. And America’s large military budget allowed it to actually get in there and help with the evacuation of people, and supply areas with food and aid ASAP. An ability no other country seemed capable of pulling off. No, China most definitely did not give more than the US.

As far as the tsunami, the overall aid from America (government and personal) beat virtually any other nation.
Just virtually of course...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-01-05-tsunami-aust_x.htm

Well overall, I agree with EinDeutscher on this one.

America is yet another hegemon, coming from a long line of hegemons, ruling the earth and disappearing again. To think that your defeated enemies somehow owe you allegiance is ridiculous.
I never felt Germany was liberated in WW1, nor was it in WW2. The Hitler regime was bullshit, its racial ideology wrong and most of its wars were unnecessary and unnecessarily brutal.
Does that justify killing hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of German civilians? Definitely not. But it will take a few hundreds of thousands of dead American civilians for you to acknowledge that. And I don't want that to happen, for they are civilians nonetheless.
And if you are going to answer with the Holocaust, as terrible as it was, it wasn't the reason you entered the war, or anyone else did. You would have let the Jews die, everyone of them, if we hadn't somehow endangered your interests. It's horrible, but it is the truth.
It's called Realpolitik.
-------
It is not that we don't support liberty and freedom or democracy, although that seems to be your opinion of everyone who doesn't crawl before you.
It is simply that after a century of double-standards, after all the damage that was done in its name, freedom and democracy have lost their "aura". They are not some sort of new, superior way of living. They are simply another ideology to be forced upon the rest of the world. Sure its nice to live without the Government arresting you.
But I have always said that the majority of people lived nice lives under Saddam, just going to work every day, watching TV and going to drink one in the pub. Any more liberty than that is superficial and will not actually improve a person's life.
-------
So whether they be Assyrians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Franks, Spanish, British, Americans or Chinese (note that this is somewhat of a time series), they are always the same.
And it will be forever the right of people all over the world to resist and empire that tries to rule them, no matter whether god blessed them or not...
-----------
The spirit of Teutoburg lives on! :p

The United States, which initially said it would donate $15 million, increased it to $35 million and since has increased it tenfold — putting it behind Australia, Germany and Japan.

Heh

<<Pain in the ass... Learn how to use quote tags.>>

I'd rather not. Seriously, I just had to tag out a large argument on another site before I did that. And since I like that site a lot better than here...

no matter whether god blessed them or not...


Rest assured - if there is a god (highly doubtful), it did certainly not bless the US. If it did, then it's a dumb and evil god.

Ein Deutscher']Just virtually of course...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-01-05-tsunami-aust_x.htm

Try again when you can prove your understanding of the word ‘personal’. Nor does that particular source take into account the virtually priceless contribution made by US military forces in the area.

Try again when you can prove your understanding of the word ‘personal’. Nor does that particular source take into account the virtually priceless contribution made by US military forces in the area.
Oh but of course. How could I forget that Australians, Germans and Japanese did not donate a single Cent or Yen in personal donations. My bad... :rolleyes:
And regarding the US military - I think the local militaries of the countries of the region, did plenty work themselves.

In fact here we go. http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0124/p08s01-comv.html

Stand up, America, and take a deep bow for yourself. You have crossed a remarkable threshold in compassion.

Your private donations to the tsunami survivors - already more than $400 million - have exceeded your own government's financial aid ($350 million). In fact, at least one-third of American households say they have donated money to an aid group in tsunami-hit nations.

So 350 + 400 = 750 million. A notch behind Australia and a Notch ahead of Germany. Throw in that some of these other countries gave loans rather than cash and that American air mobility isn't exactly a cash donation I find it hard to question America's giving. But hey when we pay a tax rate at about ~half of these other countries its not hard to figure out why a good deal of America's aid comes from private individuals.

In fact here we go. http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0124/p08s01-comv.html



So 350 + 400 = 750 million. A notch behind Australia and a Notch ahead of Germany. Throw in that some of these other countries gave loans rather than cash and that American air mobility isn't exactly a cash donation I find it hard to question America's giving. But hey when we pay a tax rate at about ~half of these other countries its not hard to figure out why a good deal of America's aid comes from private individuals.
Read my previous post. You completely disregard that the official donations were from governments and in most cases more than DOUBLE what the US donated. The private donations aren't even counted in that, which most certainly top the measily 750 Million by the US. No #1 for you, neener. :rolleyes: I take serious offense to the constant claims by Americans everywhere that they are number 1 in everything, when it's not the case. You obviously are incapable of being a good middle-class - you always must be the best and highest - even if you're not deserving of the "rank". Just pathetic... but totally typical for Americans.

Ein Deutscher']Oh but of course. How could I forget that Australians, Germans and Japanese did not donate a single Cent or Yen in personal donations. My bad... :rolleyes:
And regarding the US military - I think the local militaries of the countries of the region, did plenty work themselves.

Said militaries are a) disorganized b) do not have adequate communication networks c) are not capable of the logistical feats that a small group of US ships and helicopters can pull off.

Said citizens of their countries have less personal cash, and small enough populations that while I’m sure they donated a decent amount of cash, that it won’t add up to more than 50-60 million per nation. If does, hey, feel free to let me know.

Y'know, most countries private giving was pretty impressive. The UK beat it's govt's donation, it wouldn't surprise me if the aussies did too.\

Face it, the US was not the saviour of the world this time around.

I'm sorry - but where's the option : -

It doesn't - the US Military should be disbanded immediately and the Commander-in-Chief (yes, that means you Dubya, and bring good ol' Daddy with you for good measure) put on trial for Crimes against Humanity

?

This person still has a pre-9/11 frame of mind. Someone who does not understand what kind of enemy we're fighting..... :mad:

Y'know, most countries private giving was pretty impressive. The UK beat it's govt's donation, it wouldn't surprise me if the aussies did too.

Yep the UK Civilians gave 90 million USD. So, how much did the UK government give then?

Face it, the US was not the saviour of the world this time around.

No one said it was, but downplaying the US's donation as inconsequentional is rather foolish as well.

This person still has a pre-9/11 frame of mind. Someone who does not understand what kind of enemy we're fighting..... :mad:

True. Fighting yourself isn't easy.

what kind of enemy we're fighting..... :mad:
A virtual enemy - created by your government, fed by your government and exploited by your government to steer you, to manipulate you, to limit you. War is peace, freedom is slavery. You may leave, drone.

Yep the UK Civilians gave 90 million USD. So, how much did the UK government give then?



No one said it was, but downplaying the US's donation as inconsequentional is rather foolish as well.
I didn't "downplay it as inconsequentional". I merely and completely debunked your claim that the US gave more than "virtually all other nations". Eat your own words. Some champagner with them? :p

Ein Deutscher']Read my previous post. You completely disregard that the official donations were from governments and in most cases more than DOUBLE what the US donated. The private donations aren't even counted in that, which most certainly top the measily 750 Million by the US.

Feel like citing some sources? So far we've got very little going for you and ignoring the rather immeasurable value of active participation immediately after the disaster rather than cash donations. Also ignoring that many of these 'giving' came in the form of loans.

No #1 for you, neener. :rolleyes: I take serious offense to the constant claims by Americans everywhere that they are number 1 in everything, when it's not the case. You obviously are incapable of being a good middle-class - you always must be the best and highest - even if you're not deserving of the "rank". Just pathetic... but totally typical for Americans.

Hey ------- before you get on your lovely little high-horse you should perhaps note that I'm not claiming the US is #1? Oh wait, your petty-little mind is incapable of maintaining any amount of objectivty but must take it as a source to try and bash the US and Americans.

Ein Deutscher']I didn't "downplay it as inconsequentional". I merely and completely debunked your claim that the US gave more than "virtually all other nations". Eat your own words. Some champagner with them? :p
So far you've done nothing of the sort. Other than fail to bring up an non government figures and ignore the value of actual intervention and physical on the ground support as 0 value.

But hey, enjoy living in your American bashing world.

Sorry, we're too used to people like Galbaddia.

but you going adhominem really doesn't help much.

Just because there aren't as many dead people doesn't make me feel like the civilian deaths in Iraq were Ok. For all the civilian deaths in ANY war, I detest them, regardless of which nation commited them.

Then you share feelings with most every Combat Soldier that's ever worn the Uniform (at least, for the U.S.), American Soldiers don't kill civilians by choice. They go to extreme lengths not to-lengths limited by the necessity of the mission. In the SAC (Strategic Air Command) the Motto was, (according to my father, who served there in the early, pre-Vietnam 1960's)
"Peace is our Profession".

However... History shows that Appeasement does not work, and Negotiations often break down-catastrophically. The Romans had a saying for this, but I can't remember my latin. In English, it translates as "If you Desire Peace, be Prepared for War" IIRC, Sun-Tzu had much the same advice. For almost four decades after the fall of the Third Reich, Europe did not have to fully prepare for war on its own. The result, was the abominable performance of European troops in the former Yugoslavian republics, during the very-real genocides that occurred in them in the 1990's.

comparable equipment, comparably service periods, technically similar and even technically superior training regimes, were not enough for French, German, Dutch, etc. Peacekeepers to keep the "Safe Havens" safe, or suppress Milosevic and Mladic's experiment in Lead-based Eugenics.

Indeed, the French, a nation that has often prided itself on its military prowess, had incidents documented of soldiers surrendering their arms without a fight to Bosnian Serb irregulars, the Dutch were toilet paper when the Ethnic Cleansers came to Srebenice. This was not some Long Range foreign war for the Europeans, it wasn't suppressing an oppressed third-world people for their oil... Who stopped Milosevic, and who stopped the massacres in the Balkans?
At the beginning of 1994, it was going great-guns. The U.S., after several years of saying "No, we're staying out of this one..." came in, by christmas of 1994, things were quiet, mines were being removed, and people were getting on with the long process of trying to rebuild shattered lives.


My biggest gripe with the war in Iraq is why it's even occuring, at least with WWII germany was invading other nations and Japan was bombing shit like it was the new black. I hate to ever call war nessecary but in cases where a country is defending itself, it is nessecary. Iraq was not.

That's questionable. As long as the Ba'athist regime remained in place, the Sanctions remained, and as long as the sanctions remained, American troops had to enforce them-treaty obligations and all that.

As long as Americans had to enforce those sanctions, they were essentially in the line of fire, but not permitted to respond effectively.

Abandoning the Enforcement meant betraying yet another trust-and we haven't recovered from Vietnam yet internationally.

After all, how reliable is an ally that abandons their post???

The only realistic means of ending the enforcement of Sanctions, was finding a pretext to remove the regime we had under guard. Saddam was kind enough to provide us with an ample pretext by pretending he was hiding WMD effectively enough to convince the British, the CIA, the NSA, and a good portion of the United Nations Inspection teams.

Welded to the Iraqi history of supporting Terrorism internationally, and the UN resolutions calling for 'Strict actions", the war was a go-all it needed, was a sparc to trigger enough anger. Usama Bin Laden's group provided it indirectly, but directly enough for the pretext to be "Not too revolting" for the U.S. Congress, (including Democrats) to give the Okey-dokey.

NONE of this was the fault of the grunt on the ground.

The best thing about the American Military...

Abu Ghraib is resulting in courts-martial and the destruction of careers, the Lt. Colonel in charge of the unit that contained the perps in that fiasco has tried to weasel-word cover her ass for what amounts to gross negligence-the only reason she's not in a cell in Leavenworth (Kansas) is because she's a female, and the Military is still labouring under Affirmative Action rules. The odds of that particular career-officer ever getting promoted in this universe are nil-and-none, she'll be lucky if they give her a chance to resign for the Good of the Service, rather than separation for incompetence.
The NCO's in charge are likely to never see NCO rank again, if they manage to avoid their own prison stays.
The E-4 and below who participated will probably be 'administratively separated' after a "No Favourable Actions" with at best a General discharge, but more likely a DHD (Dishonourable. Can't vote with a DHD, can't own a gun, hold a security clearance, and in many places, hold a job... and they can forget about VA benefits or Federal bennies of any kind whatsoever...)

Believe it or not, a lot of people who wear (or wore) the uniform would prefer a firing squad to that. Soldiering doesn't pay very well, you do it because it's a 'calling', to be denied it can be a life-destroying event. I know one person who was 'out' on the RIF (Reduction In Force) with a bar-to-reenlistment. He almost comitted suicide even though his discharge was a full-honourable.

The American military is unusual for a Large military, in that it is an all-volunteer organisation. People aren't compelled to join, they are not conscripted, ripped from lives and homes and family to serve at gunpoint against their will.
There's a certain... 'elan I think is the french term, in a force like that. Used well or used poorly, the soldier is a different animal.

well I just heard that they blew up 7 or 8 civilians in Iraq because they wouldn't... what was it... oh right, leave their homes. I think it must be their discipline levels, or their overall intelligence.. chipmunks got nothin' on them.

However... History shows that Appeasement does not work, and Negotiations often break down-catastrophically. The Romans had a saying for this, but I can't remember my latin. In English, it translates as "If you Desire Peace, be Prepared for War"

And i believe that would be "sicness pacness parabellum" by my latin is really screwed and i forget how to spell it.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that China thing. The current morale/recruitment problem is correctable, and likely will reverse within the next few years (specifically, November 2008). The Chinese have 50 years of technology to catch up on. They're barely past the stage the US was at when we whooped them in Korea.

The fact of the matter is that China isn't all that far behind the US technologically. BUT they have a far larger force than the US to field. If the US had to face China they would almost certainly lose. The British Armed Forces are the best in the world man for man. They are merely smaller than the Americans. I still don't understand why we still go to war with the Americans as every time we do we lose more ppl to 'Blue on Blue' (friendly) fire. :sniper:

Wasn't it 'Art of War' who said 'If you want peace prepare for war?

China have good equipment. Not as good as the US (who, not content with the best fighter in the world are desperately trying to create a replacement) but the y posess the finest multirole aircraft in the world (Su-27) and a big enough pile of them to mess anyone up, in fact, nything the soviets made the Chinese have and the sovs made some great stuff.

The reason the US military rocks is because American soilders are inherantly superior to foreign soilders because they are American. Foreign soilders are sub human and God doesn't love them as much. What's more, the soilders see this as the truth and thus have no niggles about 'acting morally' towards the enemy - Vietnam and Iraq being prime examples of how treating foreigners as the animals they are wins wars. Oh, and before anyone comments - Vietnam was a tactical victory - if it wasn't for the damn liberal media and it's outrage of the US army killing 'innocent' women and children, we'd have won and the world would be a better place due to Vietnam not becoming communist.

The fact of the matter is that China isn't all that far behind the US technologically. BUT they have a far larger force than the US to field. If the US had to face China they would almost certainly lose. The British Armed Forces are the best in the world man for man. They are merely smaller than the Americans. I still don't understand why we still go to war with the Americans as every time we do we lose more ppl to 'Blue on Blue' (friendly) fire. :sniper:

Wasn't it 'Art of War' who said 'If you want peace prepare for war?

Don't forget: China is frantically building their navy.

the thing about technology isn't just the level of advancement, it's the usages. China's got a history of their armies getting some units advanced, and those armies turning on the State. It happened in the late-Imperial period, for instance (early 20th Century) with the Warlords, who were in turn put down by the Nationalists (who then lost out to the Communists). This tends to make governments leery of giving too much autonomy to their military commanders-the Warlord period wasn't that long ago, and it hurt them badly.

One of the advantages the U.S. military has is the ability to delegate significant authority and make decisions without centralized approval. (this principle was violated under Johnson, with predictably bad results in the 1960's. Politicians don't make any better commanders in the field, than Field Commanders make Politicians. Interpret as you will, but few mourn the passing of Cromwell, Franco, etc.)

One of hte disadvantages the U.S. is suffering (at the moment), is that China recieved a huge Tech-bonus during the 1990's when the Administration okay'ed the transfer of classified technical information and systems to the PRC, including missile-guidance and C3 elements. That, and the granting of Overseas contracts for Military equipment by the Clintons may have put china significantly closer to "Real Threat" than they would otherwise be.

(Prior to the Clinton Administration, the DoD had to "Buy American", and foreign companies that wanted to sell general-issue gear had to make it here...)

Likely, China will be the barbarian horde that brings down the American Empire, just as the Germans did to France, the Romans to Gaul, and the Goths to Rome. Like Rome, it is a doom of our own devising-we've even begun teaching them our Logistical techniques. If China is fit-to-pattern, they will take the bits that work, and ignore the ones that don't... and there is where your real danger lies. Unlike the Empirial phase of China, the current government is tied to an Evangelical Philosophy that they can't really shake out of the leadership. Eventually, China will want to spread the good word of Mao and Marx to the rest of the world.
Given that their population is not going 'down', but the percentage of eighteen-to-twenty year old single males is going up at a higher rate than females (thanks to the one-child policy) it may even be practical necessity that sparks it-a shortage of something, crossed with teh ability to take it more cheaply by force than by trade or negotiation, tends to devolve into war-either to get that something, or to reduce/distract a discontent populace.

Eighteen to Twenty-four year old men with no prospects for marraige is a genuine problem. It can cause any number of unpleasant side-effects, including delinquency, misdirected aggression, and crime.

China can't afford more widespread crime-not and maintain their existing social order, and the surplus of military-age men, combined with a booming economy and technological advance, means heap-bad-trouble for the neighbours-esp. neighbours with large ethnic-Chinese minority populations, or land...

The reason the US military rocks is because American soilders are inherantly superior to foreign soilders because they are American. Foreign soilders are sub human and God doesn't love them as much. What's more, the soilders see this as the truth and thus have no niggles about 'acting morally' towards the enemy - Vietnam and Iraq being prime examples of how treating foreigners as the animals they are wins wars. Oh, and before anyone comments - Vietnam was a tactical victory - if it wasn't for the damn liberal media and it's outrage of the US army killing 'innocent' women and children, we'd have won and the world would be a better place due to Vietnam not becoming communist.

Wrong. God loves non-American soldiers more-that's why he calls them home to him more often. God hates Americans, especially Soldiers. He hates them because they kill his creations more efficiently than any other thing on earth. God Especially hates Marines for this, which is why HE made so FEW Marines, and why HE does not like for them to leave this brutal and unhappy existence without first sending those he loves more onward to paradise.

[I can even argue with someone pretending to be a nationalist bigot...yikes... on his make-believe level, at that...]

Have you read Paul Kennedy's "Rise and Fall of the Great Powers?" A bit dated now, but one thing that he pointed out was how powers that feel themselves to be under threat will instinctually spend more on defence. They were declining to begin with because their economy was weakening, and writing ever bigger cheques to the military sure didn't help.

one of my favorite books, and a bit sobering. I seem to recall some refutations of some of his points, in a Smithsonian magazine article I have laying around somewhere. Still, his historical analysis was very well done.

Heh

Anyone know a source more recent than January 2005 on Tsunami aid efforts?

Ein Deutscher']A virtual enemy - created by your government, fed by your government and exploited by your government to steer you, to manipulate you, to limit you. War is peace, freedom is slavery. You may leave, drone.

hmm, the skyline of New York City was permanently altered by an imaginary enemy?

more updated information on US spending on Tsunami relief...

http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2005/42419.htm

request of $701 million (add that to the 350 million) in the 2005 supplemental budget plus this source

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/budget/fy2005/supplemental_2_14_05.pdf

gives two figures... 30 million (29.2 to be exact) already spent, plus another 36 million to be set aside for additional operations by military forces in providing assistance.

just so we have more current numbers to work with

Forget the Nuclear Navy. I mean, they're paying my tuition and everything, but that's not why the US Military rocks.

The US Military rocks for the simple and beautiful reason that it can create such a flamewar on an internet messageboard.

hmm, the skyline of New York City was permanently altered by an imaginary enemy?

No, but the skylines of Fallujah and Baghdad were.

I'm sorry - but where's the option : -

It doesn't - the US Military should be disbanded immediately and the Commander-in-Chief (yes, that means you Dubya, and bring good ol' Daddy with you for good measure) put on trial for Crimes against Humanity

?

why should an invalid/ridiculous option be listed?

No, but the skylines of Fallujah and Baghdad were.

those damn insurgents/terrorists... going after civilians, hiding in mosques, etc.

Nothing to do with the US launching an illegal...

No let's not go there, it's been trodden a million times.

And the invalid/ridiculous option was so people could at least register distaste for the military.