NationStates Jolt Archive

NOTE: This is by way of follow-up to the thread a few days ago about the original AI report. I rather suspect that those who drafted and publicized the original report went a bit overboard in their characterization of the Guantanamo detention facilities.


Amnesty concedes no hard evidence (http://www.military.com/News/Home/0,13324,4-XX-0-DAYX20050606,00.html)


By James G. Lakely
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

The head of Amnesty International's American branch yesterday acknowledged that he "doesn't know for sure" what is going on at Guantanamo Bay prison, although Amnesty International's secretary-general has called the terrorist prison run at a U.S. military base in Cuba a "gulag."
However, William F. Schulz defended the description made last week by Irene Khan, saying on "Fox News Sunday" yesterday that America's "archipelago of prisons throughout the world" are "similar in character, if not in size" to the Soviet gulags, where millions of political prisoners were killed.
"I don't believe [the charges] are irresponsible," said Mr. Schulz, the executive director of Amnesty International U.S.A. "I've told you the ways in which I think that [there are] analogies between the Soviet prison system and the United States."
Pressed to cite concrete evidence that Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld and Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales are the "architects" of "systematic torture" at the prison, Mr. Schulz could produce none.
"We don't know for sure what all is happening at Guantanamo and our whole point is that the United States ought to allow independent human rights organizations to investigate," Mr. Schulz said, adding that Amnesty International was careful to use the word "alleged" when accusing high-level Bush administration officials.
More than 28,000 interrogations have taken place at the prison and a report released by Pentagon investigators revealed that 10 charges of abuse were legitimate.
The Pentagon also reported last week that of 20 instances of "desecration" of the Muslim holy book, the Koran, 15 were carried out by prisoners. All of the guards who committed the offenses -- most of them inadvertent -- were reprimanded and/or reassigned.
Mr. Schulz, who gave the maximum amount of $2,000 to Mr. Kerry's presidential campaign, said his political preferences are irrelevant to the report that is harshly critical of Bush administration policies.
"We try to hold up one universal standard for all countries," Mr. Schulz said, adding that the report accusing the U.S. of running a gulag was written by Amnesty International researchers in London. "It has nothing to do with John Kerry."
Two senators, a Democrat and a Republican, suggested yesterday that Congress or an independent commission would hold hearings on the accusations of prisoner abuse at the hands of U.S. forces abroad.
"We should have an independent commission to go take a look at this, not only Guantanamo, but Abu Ghraib, the rest of the prison system, make a recommendation to the United States Congress, and let's deal with this openly," said Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr., Delaware Democrat, on ABC's "This Week," adding that he wants the prison at Guantanamo Bay "shut down."
"This has become the greatest propaganda tool that exists for recruiting of terrorists around the world, and it is unnecessary to be in that position," he said.
Senate Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, Kentucky Republican, called Amnesty International's "gulag comment utterly outrageous," but acknowledged "it's very difficult to run a perfect prison."
"We have an open country," Mr. McConnell said yesterday on CNN's "Late Edition."
"We have hearings on a whole lot of different subjects. We might well have a hearing on this," he said.

It's a shame that AI's regional head in USA has backed in under pressure from the United States government and media. His organisation should be above government pressure.

I hope that the head office in London has a word with him and tells him to stick to his principles.

(And Eutrusca, how nice to see ANOTHER thread started by you with an entire article from the Washington Post copied and pasted)

Yes, it's a shame that Amnesty International has no proof for any of its claims of abuse at Guantanamo.

Damn shame, that. :rolleyes:

Yes, it's a shame that Amnesty International has no proof for any of its claims of abuse at Guantanamo.

Damn shame, that. :rolleyes:

Proof? You can't deny that people are being held there against international law without the right to a free and fair judicial process. That is undeniable. Defence of this is laughable.

The people who defend it on the bigoted grounds along the lines of "They deserve it" etc are at the same level in so far as respect for democracy as those terrorists actively involved in 11.9. 2001.

Sure, the gulag quote is slightly sensationalist. But this is a campaigning organisation, to be effective it needs to draw attention to human rights abuses in order to invoke the pressure to stop them.

There are very many entirely feasible accounts of serious human rights abuses and torture in Guantanamo Bay, some by US people.

If there is nothing to hide at the Camp X-Ray why not allow proper access to the illegally held detainees and start a free, open, transparent, democratic judicial process.

Washington Times? Fox News? Did you want to offer us a news source instead? I'm not really interested in the ravings of the Republican Party's propaganda wing.

It's very clear from the article that AI has evidence of some abuses but no evidence that links abuses to the Bush administration, or evidence of all the possible abuses that may be taking place.

Please read before you comment.

the washington times using misleading titles that misrepresent their own propaganda articles? what will they think of next?

Any similiar reports from a credible source?

How are they supposed to get direct proof if the Administration will not give them any way to investigate? All they have to go on is testimony from released prisoners.

This goes right along with what I said form the beginnign anyway. The use of the word gulag was merely a clever way to get attention so that they could try to leverage their way into seeing what is actually going on in Guantanamo by using public pressure.

NPR had a story where a US official was telling us how there were many abuses of the Koran but the thing about the flushing could not be confirmed. They did however find other things like guards writing profanity in prisoners Korans, stepping on them and ripping them up, and one where a guards urine "splashed" on a prisoner and his koran. Yeah right it just happened to spash on a prisoner and his koran, as if he wasn't pissing directly on that prisoner and his book. If this kinda shit is occuring - I doubt bvery much that their human rights are being taken into consideration.

It seemed to me that the leader of the group did not personally know what happened...that doesn't mean that the actual author of the report doesnt.

I think it is reasonable to assume the worst until proven otherwise.

I often go by this policy in life.

It never fails to teach people the value of openness.

How are they supposed to get direct proof if the Administration will not give them any way to investigate? All they have to go on is testimony from released prisoners.
You do realize that a bunch of FBI agents and reps. of the IRC are at guantanamo 24/7 right? Such was not the case of Abu Ghirab and yet clear evidence of what was going on got out. Such is not the case with Guantanamo. Thus the likelihood that any sort of systimatic chain of abuse is going on there is exceedingly low. Also, except for stuff like the Geneva Conventions, which 90% of the people there don't fall under, international law is a bunch of bullshit. If it wasn't people would be doing a fuckload more about Darfur. But instead we get the UN which doesn't even have the balls to call it genocide. If AI were truly interested in the plight of suffering people they would be screaming and ranting about that instead. But they aren't, are they? And for your reading pleasure:


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/opinion/05kristof.html?

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: June 5, 2005

NYALA, Sudan

All countries have rapes, of course. But here in the refugee shantytowns of Darfur, the horrific stories that young women whisper are not of random criminality but of a systematic campaign of rape to terrorize civilians and drive them from "Arab lands" - a policy of rape.

One measure of the international community's hypocrisy is that the world is barely bothering to protest. More than two years after the genocide in Darfur began, the women of Kalma Camp - a teeming squatter's camp of 110,000 people driven from their burned villages - still face the risk of gang rape every single day as they go out looking for firewood.

Nemat, a 21-year-old, told me that she left the camp with three friends to get firewood to cook with. In the early afternoon a group of men in uniforms caught and gang-raped her.

"They said, 'You are black people. We want to wipe you out,' " Nemat recalled. After the attack, Nemat was too injured to walk, but her relatives found her and carried her back to camp on a donkey.

A neighbor, Toma, 34, said she heard similar comments from seven men in police uniforms who raped her. "They said, 'We want to finish you people off,' " she recalled.

Sometimes the women simply vanish. A young mother named Asha cried as she told how she and her four sisters were chased down by a Janjaweed militia; she escaped but all her sisters were caught.

"To this day, I don't know if they are alive or dead," she sobbed. Then she acknowledged that she had another reason for grief: a Janjaweed militia had also murdered her husband 23 days earlier.

Gang rape is terrifying anywhere, but particularly so here. Women who are raped here are often ostracized for life, even forced to build their own huts and live by themselves. In addition, most girls in Darfur undergo an extreme form of genital cutting called infibulation that often ends with a midwife stitching the vagina shut with a thread made of wild thorns. This stitching and the scar tissue make sexual assault a particularly violent act, and the resulting injuries increase the risk of H.I.V. transmission.

Sudan has refused to allow aid groups to bring into Darfur more rape kits that include medication that reduces the risk of infection from H.I.V.

The government has also imprisoned rape victims who became pregnant, for adultery. Even those who simply seek medical help are harassed and humiliated.

On March 26, a 17-year-old student named Hawa went to a French-run clinic in Kalma and reported that she had been raped. A French midwife examined her and confirmed that she was bleeding and had been raped.

But an informer in the clinic alerted the police, who barged in and - over the determined protests of two Frenchwomen - carried Hawa off to a police hospital, where she was chained to a cot by one leg and one arm. A doctor there declared that she had not been raped after all, and Hawa was then imprisoned for a couple of days. The authorities are now proposing that she be charged with submitting false information.

The attacks are sometimes purely about humiliation. Some women are raped with sticks that tear apart their insides, leaving them constantly trickling urine. One Sudanese woman working for a European aid organization was raped with a bayonet.

Doctors Without Borders issued an excellent report in March noting that it alone treated almost 500 rapes in a four-and-a-half-month period. Sudan finally reacted to the report a few days ago - by arresting an Englishman and a Dutchman working for Doctors Without Borders.

Those women who spoke to me risked arrest and lifelong shame by telling their stories. Their courage should be an inspiration to us - and above all, to President Bush - to speak out. Mr. Bush finally let the word Darfur pass his lips on Wednesday, after 142 days of silence, but only during a photo op. Such silence amounts to acquiescence, for this policy of rape flourishes only because it is ignored.

I'm still chilled by the matter-of-fact explanation I received as to why it is women who collect firewood, even though they're the ones who are raped. The reason is an indication of how utterly we are failing the people of Darfur, two years into the first genocide of the 21st century.

"It's simple," one woman here explained. "When the men go out, they're killed. The women are only raped."

*spits* Oh yeah, AI really has its fucking priorities straight :mad:

You do realize that a bunch of FBI agents and reps. of the IRC are at guantanamo 24/7 right? Such was not the case of Abu Ghirab and yet clear evidence of what was going on got out. Such is not the case with Guantanamo. Thus the likelihood that any sort of systimatic chain of abuse is going on there is exceedingly low. Also, except for stuff like the Geneva Conventions, which 90% of the people there don't fall under, international law is a bunch of bullshit. If it wasn't people would be doing a fuckload more about Darfur. But instead we get the UN which doesn't even have the balls to call it genocide. If AI were truly interested in the plight of suffering people they would be screaming and ranting about that instead. But they aren't, are they? And for your reading pleasure:


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/opinion/05kristof.html?



*spits* Oh yeah, AI really has its fucking priorities straight :mad:

For your information, The Amnesty International branch here (myself included) is currently doing work on the Darfur Genocides...We're writing letters, raising money, demonstrating...

I get quite annoyed when people look at groups like the ACLU and Amnesty International with disdain. What's the matter with these groups? Could someone please explain this to me?

(And Eutrusca, congrats on 10,000 posts :p)

For your information, The Amnesty International branch here (myself included) is currently doing work on the Darfur Genocides...We're writing letters, raising money, demonstrating...

I get quite annoyed when people look at groups like the ACLU and Amnesty International with disdain. What's the matter with these groups? Could someone please explain this to me?

(And Eutrusca, congrats on 10,000 posts :p)
seriously. they say for AI to get their priorities straight when here they are criticizing AI, a group which actually does work to help those in Darfur, while they sit at their computer and bitch, doing nothing.

How are they supposed to get direct proof if the Administration will not give them any way to investigate? All they have to go on is testimony from released prisoners.

Circular argument.

AI is simply demanding the right to undertake a fishing expedition. They only have allegations.

In any case, there are only two organisations which have a legal mandate to investigate Gitmo, the US Government, and the Red Cross, both of which have and do.

I think it is reasonable to assume the worst until proven otherwise.

I often go by this policy in life.

Stay out of the legal profession :p

Proof? You can't deny that people are being held there against international law without the right to a free and fair judicial process. That is undeniable. Defence of this is laughable.

They are illegal combatants. The US has the right to detain any combatants captured on the battlefield during wartime. The US Supreme Court has recognised that the US can be at war with a non-state actor, and it has been in the past (Indians, Barbary Pirates), it has also recignised that the US can be in an undeclared war.

I can and have denied that the detentions are illegal. They are perfectly inline with international and US law. You've failed (and, so far as can be seen, not even bothered to try) to prove otherwise. You've merely stated that it isn't, and pre-emptively insulted anyone who disagrees with you. To say you're unpersuasive is to insult the people who at least try to persuade.

Circular argument.

AI is simply demanding the right to undertake a fishing expedition. They only have allegations.

In any case, there are only two organisations which have a legal mandate to investigate Gitmo, the US Government, and the Red Cross, both of which have and do.


Unfortunately the red cross has also complained that they were being denied access to certain parts of Gitmo.

Certain parts of the Prison, or certain parts of the Naval Base?

Probably because they don't fall under the Geneva Conventions but that is a whole different issue.

To the originator of this thread, thanks for posting what you did. It was much appreciated.

Keep up the good work my friend. :)

I want to know if AI is freaking out about the religious persecutions going on all around the world. I've not heard anything about this. Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (their constitution of sorts) says:

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

Will the member of AI that was posting please tell me?

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/aboutai-udhr-eng

You guys should really read the whole thing. They set a TON of standards that aren't abided by in every country in the world. They have a big job ahead of them.

I want to know if AI is freaking out about the religious persecutions going on all around the world. I've not heard anything about this. Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (their constitution of sorts) says:

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

Will the member of AI that was posting please tell me?

<sigh>

These "oh, yeah, well why doesn't AI say anything about X" arguments are tiresome.

AI's report that has so many panties in a twist for criticizing Gitmo covers 149 countries. It is 308 pages long.

Yes, AI is concerned about a wide range of human rights violations throughout the world.

And, yes, these include religious persecution. Here are a few examples:
PRISONERS OF CONSCIENCE (http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-316/index)
Eritrea: Further information on Incommunicado detention / Prisoners of Conscience / Ill-treatment - (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAFR640102003)
Yemen: Torture/prisoner of conscience/death penalty: Mohamed Omar Haji (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE310052000)
Turkmenistan: The clampdown on dissent and religious freedom continues (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR610032005)
Appeal for action - SAUDI ARABIA: Arrested for religious beliefs (http://web.amnesty.org/appeals/index/sau-010303-wwa-eng)
Macedonia: Prisoner of Conscience. Zoran Vraniskovski (m), religious leader (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGEUR650082004)
Eritrea: Continued detention of prisoners of conscience and new arrests of members of religious groups (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAFR640042003)
Appeal for action - VIET NAM: Prisoner of conscience held for his religious beliefs (http://web.amnesty.org/appeals/index/vnm-010601-wwa-eng)
Bangladesh: Fear for safety, Religious minorities - (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA130052001)
Greece: Freedom of religion and expression on trial - the case of Mehmet Emin Aga, Mufti of Xanthi (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGEUR250012000)
Turkmenistan: Fear for safety; torture/ill-treatment (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGEUR610122000)
Mexico: Fear for safety / Threats, Arturo Requenses Galnares (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR410262002)

Again, these are just some examples. And for those of you who really care primarily about Christians, you may not that many of the above links are those persecuted for Christian beliefs, belong to Christian groups, or converting to Christianity. AI is fighting for their rights.

Yeah, that AI is sure evil. :rolleyes:

Etrusca... remember when you asked me what I had to dislike about you?
And I said that you were a conservative nutjob?
And you said that you weren't and that you were insulted by that assumption?
And I said, I'm sorry, I'll try and keep an open mind?

What is this, like the 4th anti-ACLU quasi-troll thread you've made?
Quit it.

Yeah, that AI is sure evil. :rolleyes:
I don't remember saying that. I was just wondering if they were. It sounds to me like they have too many tasks to deal with. That may just be me though.

Circular argument.

AI is simply demanding the right to undertake a fishing expedition. They only have allegations.

In any case, there are only two organisations which have a legal mandate to investigate Gitmo, the US Government, and the Red Cross, both of which have and do.

*snip*

Setting aside your mistatement about AI's position and the red herring of a "legal mandate," let us look at what the Red Cross has had to say about Gitmo:

Red Cross complains to U.S. on Guantanamo -- ICRC won't confirm report
that it said treatment ‘tantamount to torture’ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6618051/)

Red Cross Cites 'Inhumane' Treatment at Guantanamo (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21262-2004Nov30.html)

Red Cross blasts Guantanamo (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3179858.stm)

Red Cross raised Guantanamo Koran abuse concerns (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=8549743)

Red Cross: Abuse At Guantanamo (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/13/terror/main673724.shtml)

"War" doesn't justify Guantanamo (http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList74/42BCD4D3BEB459ABC1256E51003EAF49)

"Tantamount to torture" means that they want to be able to prove torture, but they can't, so they use weasel words to sling mud on the US.

Your second link says that the ICRC found something they didn't like, which is different to finding something illegal.

Links 3 and 6 are based upon the ICRC being unable to understand that the US is at war.

Link 4 says that the ICRC reported a p[roblem, and the US dealt with it, which is ... what is supposed to happen.

Link 5 is another 'tantamount' weasel exercise.

I've not mistated AI's position.

AI have no proof that the allegations they have are geniune, and simply having an allegation is not sufficient to allow an investigation, AI must have some real evidence before they can ask to be allowed to investigate, and such a request must be refused because only the Red Cross and the US Government has a right to investigate Gitmo.

I remind you that al Qaeda terrorists are trained to make false allegations of torture.

If the ICRC could prove that torture (as defined under US law) was happening at Gitmo, they would have.

They can't, but they still have a political agenda, so we get weasel-word BS like "tantamount".

The fact that they can't just come out and say "we don't like it, we find it distasteful, but we've found nothing illegal, and therefore must certify that the US is meeting its obligations". That would be honest.

*snip*

1. I love how you went from the "Red Cross keeps an eye on things, so AI is wrong" to the "Red Cross is just slinging mud and doesn't understand this is a war." Sucks when the premise of your argument gets proved wrong.

2. The articles speak for themselves. As does your feeble revisionism.

3. Torture is not the only thing that constitutes a violation of human rights and international law at Guantanamo. So, you're "they can't prove torture, so it's all OK" argument is absurd.

4. The fact of the matter is that every major human rights organization in the world strongly condemns the detentions at Guantanamo. As are an increasing number of US court decisions.

But continue to see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil. Then evil won't exist.

seriously. they say for AI to get their priorities straight when here they are criticizing AI, a group which actually does work to help those in Darfur, while they sit at their computer and bitch, doing nothing.
Really? then why aren't they tearing the UN a new asshole? I would think they'd go after the countries in the UN that didn't wish what is going on there a geneocide, one of which is *spit*France, with the vociferiousness they have come at america about guantanamo where they can't even prove anything. Even when discussing the sudan situation they manage to diss the americans, even though our government was one of the first, if not the first(Not sure on exact order) actual government to speak out against it publicly and at the UN. In none of their articles on the situaiton do they lash out at the hypocracy of the UN and certain members of the security council who have oil contracts there. Yet there is plenty of lashing out at the Bush admin, every chance they can get a word in edgewise.

Yeah, that AI is sure evil. :rolleyes:
*blinks* I wasn't aware that anyone had denounced them as evil, cause they aren't. Hypocrites with a hard-on for bashing the bush admin yes, but evil? Not by a long shot.

Unfortunately the red cross has also complained that they were being denied access to certain parts of Gitmo.

Yes, that would be because the last time they were given complete access one of their officials violated the terms for the inspection and disclosed information that was mutually agreed to as sensitive. They will never get the chance to do that again.

1. I love how you went from the "Red Cross keeps an eye on things, so AI is wrong" to the "Red Cross is just slinging mud and doesn't understand this is a war." Sucks when the premise of your argument gets proved wrong.

You must have been on the can when everyone else was being taught to read.

According the the Geneva Convention, the Red Cross is supposed to be able to access enemy prisoners, and the facilities in which they are being held.

Unfortunately, the ICRC have gone beyond their responsibilities, and are playing politics.

Nothing of mine was proven wrong.

2. The articles speak for themselves. As does your feeble revisionism

Bollocks. If you can't find a cogent argument, just say so.

3. Torture is not the only thing that constitutes a violation of human rights and international law at Guantanamo. So, you're "they can't prove torture, so it's all OK" argument is absurd.

They said "tantamount to torture". They've not proven that Gitmo US policies at Gitmo violate international law. If they could, they would have. They can't, so they play politics in the media to achieve their aims.

4. The fact of the matter is that every major human rights organization in the world strongly condemns the detentions at Guantanamo. As are an increasing number of US court decisions.

The fact of the matter is that what they think is irrelevant. If they can prove something illegal is happening there, and the US Government is allowing it to happen, then they've got something. Otherwise they've merely got opinions.

Yes, that would be because the last time they were given complete access one of their officials violated the terms for the inspection and disclosed information that was mutually agreed to as sensitive. They will never get the chance to do that again.

This shows that the Conventions need revision with regard to independent international inspection.

I remind you that al Qaeda terrorists are trained to make false allegations of torture.
http://images.ucomics.com/comics/trall/2005/trall050604.gif

He can post a cartoon

http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/5933.jpg

I can post more than one

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/trall/2005/trall050402.gif

*blinks* I wasn't aware that anyone had denounced them as evil, cause they aren't. Hypocrites with a hard-on for bashing the bush admin yes, but evil? Not by a long shot.
They bash every damn admin in the world. They bash Finland, they bash Sweden... They bash 20% of all males. Why you get so offended when they show that there are some problems in USA. Or do you honestly believe that there is nothing wrong in USA?

So has a reputable news outlet reported on this yet?

AI agrees that UN needs reforms
"AI agrees that there is a strong case for reform of the Commission on Human Rights (the Commission), to give it a stronger and more authoritative position that corresponds with the primacy which the UN Charter accords to encouraging respect for human rights as a purpose of the UN. Reform must address the longstanding problems faced by the Commission, notably that its members routinely resort to double standards in addressing country situations and that membership is too often used to shield the Commission members from human rights scrutiny instead of to protect and promote human rights."

The longish article "2005 UN Commission on Human Rights: The UN’s chief guardian of human rights?" can be found here
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGIOR410082005?open&of=ENG-398

More about AI and economic globalization
http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-398/index

Havent read through the thread, so forgive me if im repeating anyone else.

I gotta ask myself, does it really matter if religious books were actually being desecrated?
Sure, its simply another diversion, or red herring to draw attention away from the fact that most of the inmates in Gitmo, are being held without trial...since we invaded Afghanistan...anyone remember how long ago that was?

Here we are, pulling a major theater campaign in a foreign land, with the pretense of "Ensuring Democracy", and yet, not allowing POW's the priveledge of a fair trial, or any kind of due process at all.

We are offering our way of life with one hand, and taking it away with the other.

So, if there was truly someone pissing on a Qu'ran, or whatever, its just another in a long line of offenses our soldiers are performing on the orders of their superiors.

The administration responsible for all of this has truly turned this nation into one comprised halfway full of hypocrites.

Havent read through the thread, so forgive me if im repeating anyone else.

I gotta ask myself, does it really matter if religious books were actually being desecrated?
Sure, its simply another diversion, or red herring to draw attention away from the fact that most of the inmates in Gitmo, are being held without trial...since we invaded Afghanistan...anyone remember how long ago that was?

Here we are, pulling a major theater campaign in a foreign land, with the pretense of "Ensuring Democracy", and yet, not allowing POW's the priveledge of a fair trial, or any kind of due process at all.

We are offering our way of life with one hand, and taking it away with the other.

So, if there was truly someone pissing on a Qu'ran, or whatever, its just another in a long line of offenses our soldiers are performing on the orders of their superiors.

The administration responsible for all of this has truly turned this nation into one comprised halfway full of hypocrites.
true that...

also we are not really offering our way of life...
we are trying to protect the current world order (us at the top of the food chain)

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/trall/2005/trall050604.gif


lol!

I guess I'm the only one who thinks that some of the ones released were released on purpose - to see where they go and who they contact.

I guess I'm the only one who thinks that some of the ones released were released on purpose - to see where they go and who they contact.

Perhaps, but that's just a guess. Once I see some evidence that the people testifying to torture have clear links to terrorist organizations then I will have reason to doubt their testimony. Until then the only thing we have is idle speculation.

Perhaps, but that's just a guess. Once I see some evidence that the people testifying to torture have clear links to terrorist organizations then I will have reason to doubt their testimony. Until then the only thing we have is idle speculation.

Anyone can make an allegation of torture.

Case in point: the young American who, when he went to Saudi Arabia, was detained on charges of being a member of al-Qaeda - said detention theoretically at the request of the US government.

This young man claimed in Federal court in Alexandria, VA that he was beaten so severely that he had multiple permanent scars on his back.

Outraged, the judge ordered several independent medical examiners to separately examine the young man.

ALL of the examiners concluded that not only did the young man not have ANY scars on his back, he had NONE anywhere on his body.

Allegations, no matter how numerous, do not constitute proof.

Have the former detainees signed testimonies accusing the U.S. of torture?

We all know our "innocent until proven guilty" standard in the U.S., but we also have a standard of truthful until proven dishonest. I don't care what happened to someone who made false allegations, it's anecdotal and doesn't discredit the current allegations.

I honestly don't entirely trust a handful of people, who have motive for revenge, but I can't doubt their testimony without hard evidence.

Have the former detainees signed testimonies accusing the U.S. of torture?

We all know our "innocent until proven guilty" standard in the U.S., but we also have a standard of truthful until proven dishonest. I don't care what happened to someone who made false allegations, it's anecdotal and doesn't discredit the current allegations.

I honestly don't entirely trust a handful of people, who have motive for revenge, but I can't doubt their testimony without hard evidence.

Most of the allegations of torture were made to the press. An additional note is that the al-Qaeda training manual specifically trains the student to allege mistreatment and misconduct at every opportunity, whether or not that misconduct occurs or not.

Sorry for making a small sideleap.. but I'm still wondering if Gitmo is a subterranean facility and/ or keeps prisoners below ground level ? This partly due to the drops-of-urine-on-koran-incident; I have trouble envisioning the pee flying a few floors up.

Most of the allegations of torture were made to the press. An additional note is that the al-Qaeda training manual specifically trains the student to allege mistreatment and misconduct at every opportunity, whether or not that misconduct occurs or not.

This is accurate not to mention, widely reported. Of course, I distrust anything these terrorists say anyway.

Sorry for making a small sideleap.. but I'm still wondering if Gitmo is a subterranean facility and/ or keeps prisoners below ground level ? This partly due to the drops-of-urine-on-koran-incident; I have trouble envisioning the pee flying a few floors up.

They aren't held underground as far as I know. They are held above ground.

Fair enough, that just means there is more reason to doubt the allegations. But it is still best to investigate to be certain.

I am not sure what people are suggesting when they mention what the Al'Qeada training manual requires operatives to do. Are you saying that there is no doubt that the U.S. released Al'Qeada after they had them in custody?

Fair enough, that just means there is more reason to doubt the allegations. But it is still best to investigate to be certain.

I am not sure what people are suggesting when they mention what the Al'Qeada training manual requires operatives to do. Are you saying that there is no doubt that the U.S. released Al'Qeada after they had them in custody?

We probably released some of them. As for the training manuals, we've recovered them in Afghanistan. Haven't heard if they have been recovered in Iraq yet or not or anyplace else for that matter.

Fair enough, that just means there is more reason to doubt the allegations. But it is still best to investigate to be certain.

I am not sure what people are suggesting when they mention what the Al'Qeada training manual requires operatives to do. Are you saying that there is no doubt that the U.S. released Al'Qeada after they had them in custody?
It is common practice when dealing with an insurgency to release the ones you know are minor players or sympathizers, and see where they go.

As an aside, here is some commentary from David Bosco, an editor for Foreign Policy writing for The New Republic

Gulag V. Gitmo

Equivalency Test

By David Bosco

In a recent report, Amnesty International referred to the U.S. detention center at Guantánamo as "the gulag of our time." The term--a Russian abbreviation for Glavnoe Upravlenie Lagerei, or Main Camp Administration--refers to the network of Soviet labor camps established during Stalin's rule that continued, in a different form, for much of the Soviet Union's history. During a press conference on Tuesday, President Bush rejected the charge as "absurd." Amnesty has defended its use of the term. Below, a comparison of the two prison systems, with the aid of Anne Applebaum's Pulitzer Prize-winning book, Gulag: A History.

Individuals Detained:

Gulag: Approximately 20 million passed through the Gulag. The population at any one time was generally around two million.

Guantánamo: 750 prisoners have passed through the camp. The current population is about 520.

Number of Camps:

Gulag: 476 separate camp complexes comprising thousands of individual camps. By the end of the 1930s, camps were located in each of the Soviet Union's twelve time zones.

Guantánamo: Five small camps on the U.S. military base in Cuba.

Reasons for Imprisonment:

Gulag: Opposition to the Soviet regime's forced collectivization, including efforts to hide grain in cellars; owning too many cows; need for slave labor to complete massive industrialization and mining projects; political opposition to the Soviet system; being Jewish; being Finnish; being religious; being middle class; being in need of reeducation; having had contact with foreigners; refusing to sleep with the head of Soviet counterintelligence; telling a joke about Stalin.

Guantánamo: Fighting for the fundamentalist Taliban in Afghanistan; being suspected of links to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups.

Judicial Review:

Gulag: None. "Trials" of those sent to the Gulag often lasted only a few minutes.

Guantánamo: The Bush administration has argued that detainees are unlawful combatants, not prisoners of war. The Supreme Court ruled in June 2004 that prisoners must receive hearings on their legal status. One hundred and fifty have decided to challenge their detention, and dozens of lawyers have been arriving at the base to represent them. Human rights groups and lawyers for detainees have argued that the military hearings are inadequate.

Red Cross Visits:

Gulag: None that I could find.

Guantánamo: Regular visits since January 2002. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has reportedly complained to the U.S. government about several aspects of prisoner treatment, including occasional beatings and other interrogation tactics. Per its standard practice, the ICRC does not make its complaints public.

Deaths as a Result of Poor Treatment:

Gulag: At least two to three million. Mass burials were often employed to keep death rates secret (camp commanders sometimes received permission to remove gold fillings before burial). In some particularly brutal periods, camp commanders simply executed thousands of prisoners. But deaths due to overwork were much more common. It is estimated that 25,000 gulag laborers died during the construction of the White Sea Canal in the early '30s. One convoy of "backward elements" destined for the Gulag in 1933 included about 6,000 prisoners; after three months, 4,000 were dead. "The survivors had lived because they ate the flesh of those who had died," according to an account cited by Applebaum.

Guantánamo: No reports of prisoner deaths.

Typical Treatment:

Gulag: For the most part, Gulag prisoners provided labor for the Soviet system. Treatment varied widely, but most prisoners lived in overcrowded barracks, and prisoners occasionally killed one another in an effort to find space to sleep. Deadly dysentery and typhus outbreaks were common. Prisoners often had inadequate clothing to protect themselves from the elements, and most camps lacked running water and heat.

Guantánamo: A recent Time magazine report found that "the best-behaved detainees are held in Camp 4, a medium-security, communal-living environment with as many as 10 beds in a room; prisoners can play soccer or volleyball outside up to nine hours a day, eat meals together and read Agatha Christie mysteries in Arabic. Less cooperative detainees typically live and eat in small, individual cells and get to exercise and shower only twice a week." Human Rights Watch and other watchdog groups have collected firsthand testimony from prisoners alleging abuses, including the use of dogs, extended solitary confinement, sexual humiliation, and "stress positions." An official investigation uncovered only minor abuses, and most detainee accusations have not been verified.

Religious Observance:

Gulag: Prisoners were occasionally able to smuggle bibles into the camps and hold religious observances, including Christmas and Easter, in secret. Being caught conducting services, however, could be grounds for further punishment. Applebaum records a prisoner's description of a priest creeping through a camp, trying to say mass without being detected.

Guantánamo: Prisoners are provided copies of the Koran and daily time for prayer. Arrows on the floor of each cell point to Mecca. Meals are made in accordance with Muslim religious restrictions. Several prisoners, however, reported delays in receiving their copies of the Koran and that guards mistreated the Koran on multiple occasions. For its part, the Pentagon has documented five instances of Koran mishandling though it denies that a Koran was ever flushed down the toilet, as one detainee alleged.

The detention center at Guantánamo is legally dubious and has been a public relations disaster for the United States. The treatment of certain prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan has been far worse. Amnesty's president Irene Kahn says that these practices are "undermining human rights in a dramatic way." Her outrage is valuable and essential. If only she could express it without employing obscene moral parallels.

Corneliu and WL,

Yes I understand the practice of releasing possible terrorists to track down others with a higher rank in their organization. But my point is we don't know that this is happening and we shouldn't assume that it is. When we know that Al'Qaeda is behind the allegations then we can doubt the possibility of mistreatment, but no sooner.

WL,

That was a nice article providing a comparison. But I don't think anyone here has ever fully agreed with the "Gitmo is Gulag" thing, I'm pretty sure we have all recongnized it as specifically inaccurate statement meant to draw attention to the issue.

Corneliu and WL,

Yes I understand the practice of releasing possible terrorists to track down others with a higher rank in their organization. But my point is we don't know that this is happening and we shouldn't assume that it is. When we know that Al'Qaeda is behind the allegations then we can doubt the possibility of mistreatment, but no sooner.

Just watch the news Nikitas.That is all you have to do. We all know this is happening and so we are making the assumption that they are. You said it yourself regarding the US, "Truthful until proven false". We are stating that it is so you must think we're truthful until someone can prove us false.

WL,

That was a nice article providing a comparison. But I don't think anyone here has ever fully agreed with the "Gitmo is Gulag" thing, I'm pretty sure we have all recongnized it as specifically inaccurate statement meant to draw attention to the issue.

You don't listen to the liberals alot do you?

*spits* Oh yeah, AI really has its fucking priorities straight :mad:

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/sdn-summary-eng

In Darfur in western Sudan government forces and allied militias continued to kill thousands and displace tens of thousands of people living in rural areas, especially during the first three months of 2004. Hundreds of those killed were extrajudicially executed by armed forces, military intelligence or militias. A ceasefire signed in April by the government and armed groups based in Darfur — the Sudan Liberation Army (SLA) and the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM) — was violated by all sides. By December about 1.8 million displaced people remained in camps within Darfur or elsewhere in Sudan and more than 200,000 Darfur refugees remained in Chad. The SLA and JEM abducted people from nomad groups, attacked humanitarian convoys and reportedly executed individuals. The final protocols of the North-South peace process were signed on 31 December. During the year the ceasefire between the government and the Sudan People’s Liberation Army (SPLA), led by John Garang, continued but was breached by attacks by government-supported militias around Malakal which displaced tens of thousands of people. Hundreds of people were detained without charge for political reasons by national security, intelligence and police forces; at least 100 remained in
detention at the end of the year. Torture was widespread, especially in Darfur. At least three detainees died in custody in circumstances where torture appeared to have caused their death. More than 100 death sentences were imposed; executions were believed to have been carried out. Floggings were imposed for numerous offences and usually carried out immediately. Amputations, including cross-amputations, were also imposed but none was known to have been carried out in 2004. Scores of people were sentenced before specialized criminal courts in Darfur after summary and unfair trials. In areas controlled by the SPLA people were sentenced to cruel punishments such as flogging and held in cruel, inhuman or degrading conditions of detention.

Southern Sudan

Peace talks between the SPLA and the government continued intermittently during the year. In January a protocol on wealth-sharing was signed and in May three protocols on power sharing and on the resolution of conflict in the areas of Abyei, South Kordofan and the Nuba Mountains, and the southern Blue Nile Province (the three so-called “marginal areas”) were agreed. The power-sharing protocol contained a list of human rights and fundamental freedoms to be respected by both parties.

Despite the ceasefire and continuing peace process, fighting broke out in Bahr al-Ghazal and Upper Nile. In May, hundreds of Shilluk people were killed in Upper Nile and more than 60,000 were reportedly displaced after attacks by government-supported militias. At least 20,000 remained displaced by the end of the year. About 400,000 people displaced in previous years returned to the Bahr al-Ghazal and Equatoria regions. In areas under SPLA control detainees were reportedly sentenced to cruel, inhuman or degrading punishment such as flogging after summary trials or without trial; SPLA commanders reportedly frequently overturned court decisions. Conditions for detainees constituted cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. Most prisons were simply large holes in the ground.

Crisis in Darfur

The conflict in Darfur intensified at the start of the year. Attacks were carried out by government forces, sometimes using Antonov bomber planes and helicopter gunships, and by nomad militias known as the Janjawid, armed and supported by the government. Thousands of civilians were killed and tens of thousands made homeless. Others were abducted. Hundreds of villages were destroyed or looted. Thousands of women were raped, sometimes in public, and many were taken as sexual slaves by soldiers or Janjawid militiamen. In April a Humanitarian Ceasefire Agreement was signed by the Sudanese government, the SLA and the JEM in N’Djaména, Chad. Both sides breached the agreement not to target civilians.

By March, with more than one million internally displaced people (IDPs) living in camps while the government continued to restrict access to humanitarian aid, fears of a famine grew. The then UN Humanitarian Coordinator described Darfur as the “greatest humanitarian crisis of our time”. In May, following intense international pressure, the government agreed to grant free access to humanitarian organizations. In July, African Union (AU) ceasefire monitors and a protection force were deployed in the main towns. In October the AU Peace and Security Council widened the mandate of the force to include protection of civilians in imminent danger but a planned increase of personnel to more than 3,000 had not been fully implemented by the end of the year.

In July and September UN Resolutions 1556 and 1564 threatened action if the government failed to disarm the Janjawid and protect civilians. However, the Janjawid remained armed and were largely incorporated into Sudanese paramilitary forces such as the Popular Defence Forces. In November Humanitarian and Security Protocols were signed in Abuja, Nigeria, by the government, the SLA and the JEM, committing them to respect international humanitarian law. However, attacks by both sides continued, causing thousands more people to be displaced. Government planes violated the agreement and bombed civilians.

Unlawful killings

Government forces and Janjawid militias carried out hundreds of extrajudicial executions.
In March, Sudanese military intelligence and army officers and Janjawid militiamen arrested more than 135 Fur people in 10 villages in Wadi Saleh province in West Darfur state. Those arrested were detained in the village of Deleij, blindfolded and taken in groups of about 40 in army trucks to an area behind a hill near Deleij. They were reportedly told to lie on the ground and shot by about 45 members of the military intelligence and the Janjawid.

Violence against women

Armed forces and militia members raped thousands of women and tens of thousands of women suffered other violence and forced displacement in the conflict in Darfur. Women were raped during attacks and frequently abducted into sexual slavery for days or months. Women continued to be raped outside IDP camps.
An 18-year-old woman described how after an attack on Mukjar in January about 45 women were taken from the village by soldiers and militiamen wearing military uniform and raped. She was raped by six men and given to a soldier who kept her in sexual slavery for one month in Nyala and then took her to Khartoum, where she remained for two months before escaping. The soldier was under investigation at the end of the year.
In August, armed men in uniform, apparently from militias, reportedly raped three teenage girls gathering wood outside Ardamata IDP camp. The women reported the rape to the police who sent them for a medical examination but subsequently dropped the case.

Refugees and displaced people

The number of displaced people in Darfur more than doubled. By December about 1.8 million people were displaced within Darfur and some 200,000 were refugees in Chad.

Until May, when the government gave access to humanitarian agencies, most IDPs lacked food, water and medical aid and were constantly harassed by Janjawid militias. IDPs continued to report attacks outside camps by the Janjawid and harassment by the security and police forces. Government officials put pressure on IDPs to return to unsafe areas and police forcibly relocated IDPs at night.
In April, a UN mission described how 1,700 IDPs, whose villages had been burnt, were confined to the town of Kailek in Shattaya district, West Darfur, without access to food or water. The town was encircled by the Janjawid who would take women to rape at night and subject men to forced labour.
At least 40 IDPs from Abu Shouk camp in al-Fasher and Kabkabiya were arrested in July after talking to foreign delegations, including those of US Secretary of State Colin Powell and French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier.
In November, police attacked IDPs in al-Jeer in Nyala, South Darfur state, at least four times in order to empty the camp. On the night of 9-10 November they used tear gas, rubber bullets and bulldozers to drive people out in the presence of international monitors and the media.

Abuses by armed groups

The SLA and JEM were responsible for unlawful killings, attacks on humanitarian convoys and abductions.
In October, 18 passengers from nomad groups were taken off a bus between Niyertiti and Thur in South Darfur state by SLA members. Thirteen of those abducted were believed to have been killed.

Torture

Torture of detainees by the security forces, military intelligence and police was widespread, particularly in Darfur.
Twelve people from Mellit, North Darfur state, arrested by the Positive Security in August were tortured to make them confess to fabricating a video tape showing rapes. Four women, Mariam Mohamed Dinar, Su’ad Ali Khalil, Su’ad al-Nur Abdel Rahman and Fatma Rahma were beaten with a belt, kicked and punched. Mariam Mohamed Dinar had her nails pulled out with pincers. Men arrested at the same time were also reportedly tortured. The charges were dropped and all were released in November.

Deaths in custody

At least three people died in custody. Torture appeared to have caused or hastened their deaths.
Abdel Rahman Mohamed Abdel Hadi died in custody on the day of his arrest, apparently as a result of torture. He was one of nine people arrested in August by military intelligence who were reportedly tortured in the army barracks in Mellit.
Shamseddin Idris, a Nuba student, and Abdel Rahman Suleiman Adam, a student from Darfur – both members of the Popular Congress party (an Islamist opposition to the ruling National Congress Party) arrested in September as part of a crackdown on the party – died immediately after arrest, apparently after being severely beaten. An investigation into the deaths was continuing at the end of the year.

Incommunicado detention

Political detainees, including many prisoners of conscience, continued to be held in prolonged incommunicado detention without trial under Article 31 of the National Security Forces Act.
Six Darfuris arrested in Khartoum in February remained detained without charge and mostly incommunicado at the end of the year. One of them, 50-year-old Fur leader Ma’mun Issa Abdel Gader from Niyertiti, West Darfur, was first detained in Kober prison in Khartoum, later transferred to Dabak prison north of Khartoum, and then to the prison of Wad Medani, south of Khartoum. His family was only allowed to visit him twice.
More than 100 Popular Congress party members were arrested in Khartoum in September, following government allegations of a coup plot. Detainees, including high-profile party members, student activists, people of Darfur origin and relatives of party members, were held incommunicado. Party leader Hassan al-Turabi was transferred from house detention, where he had been held without charge for months, to Kober prison. He had previously been released in October 2003 after two years’ detention without trial. By the end of the year some had been released and about 90 were reported to have been charged with involvement in a coup.

Human rights defenders

Human rights defenders continued to be harassed and arrested.
Dr Mudawi Ibrahim Adam, Director of the Sudan Social Development Organization, was arrested at his home in Khartoum in December 2003 after visiting Darfur. He was subsequently charged with offences relating to crimes against the state, some carrying the death penalty. The evidence against him included public AI documents. All charges against him were dropped in August.
Saleh Mahmud Osman, a human rights lawyer from Darfur, was arrested in February in Wad Medani and held without access to the outside world for six weeks. He was released without charge in September after seven months in detention.

Death penalty and other cruel, inhuman and degrading punishments

In Darfur, Specialized Criminal Courts handed down death sentences and corporal punishment after summary trials which failed to meet international fair trial standards. In Khartoum women and men continued to be brought before public order courts and sentenced to flogging for offences such as illegal sexual intercourse, breaching the dress code, selling alcohol or selling tea without a licence.
The sentence of 100 lashes imposed on a 14-year-old pregnant unmarried girl in Nyala convicted of illegal sexual intercourse in 2003 was commuted.
Al-Tayeb Ali Ahmad, an SLA member, was sentenced to death in January for crimes against the state, accused of participating in an attack on al-Fasher airport in 2003. He and two co-defendants, who received prison sentences, were tortured by being beaten with water pipes and sticks before their trial by al-Fasher Specialized Criminal Court and had no legal representation.
Alakor (Madina) Lual Deng was sentenced to death by stoning in Nahud, Kordofan, for adultery. At her trial she had no defence lawyer and was sentenced to death solely on the basis of her own confession. In June the High Court of Justice upheld her appeal and quashed the sentence.
The death sentences on 88 Rizeiqat people, including two children, imposed in July 2002 were quashed in December 2004 and they were released.

Restrictions on freedom of expression

Freedom of the press continued to be restricted. Journalists were detained and summoned for questioning by the authorities and newspapers were censored. The security forces also forced editors to withdraw articles about Darfur.
Zuhair al-Sarraj, a journalist with the newspaper al-Sahafa,was summoned to the offices of the security services several times in November after writing an article complaining of the use of loudspeakers for the calls to prayer during Ramadan. On one occasion he was reportedly severely beaten.

International organizations

In April the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights sent a fact-finding mission to Chad and Darfur which issued two reports on killings and forced displacement in Darfur and the government’s role in these. In July the UN Secretary-General appointed a Special Representative to Sudan. UN human rights monitors were deployed in Darfur in August. The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, the Special Adviser on the Prevention of Genocide, the Special Representative on Internally Displaced Persons and the UN Special Rapporteurs on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions and on violence against women visited Sudan. Three Security Council resolutions were passed on Sudan. Resolution 1564 established a UN Commission of Inquiry to investigate reports of violations of international human rights and humanitarian law and determine whether acts of genocide had occurred.

The AU Peace and Security Council sent ceasefire monitors and a protection force to Darfur. The AU also brokered a ceasefire and peace protocols between parties to the conflict in Darfur. The African Commission sent a fact-finding mission.

European Union (EU) representatives visited Darfur. The EU maintained an arms embargo and threatened other sanctions on Sudan.

The Arab League sent a fact-finding mission to Darfur in April which drew attention to the deteriorating humanitarian situation.

We all know this is happening...

No we don't know, we are guessing. That's my point.

You said it yourself regarding the US, "Truthful until proven false". We are stating that it is so you must think we're truthful until someone can prove us false.

Haha... No. That is in a court of law, that is why I asked if there were signed/sworn testimonies to abuse.

If "truthful until prove false" was a standard for reasoning then the whole God thing would have been solved a long time ago.

No we don't know, we are guessing. That's my point.

For some of the released ones, I'm sure they're innocent.

But given the startling efficacy with which US intelligence went from knowing nothing about al-Qaeda to capturing or assassinating most of their senior leadership (but missing bin Laden and Zawahiri), one wonders where they got their information.

There is, of course, only one source possible. Their current detainees. Men like Sheik Khalid Mohammed, who ostensibly "talked" within 24 hours of being handed over to the Americans. He is, apparently, the best source so far, being at the time the Number 3 man in the organization, and his information has gotten results.

One might therefore conclude that although some at Guantanamo are innocent, others know things, and still others are probably not only knowledgable, but primary actors.

Whatever interrogation techniques are in use (and we can only guess), they are producing results. Results that would not have been obtained if none of the people who are at Guantanamo had been detained and questioned.