NationStates Jolt Archive

A US poster on this forum, who has never left the states, recently told me that socialism in europe was the same as communism.
That taxes in France are 75%.
That the standard of living in the US is the highest in the world.
As a European in the UK paying 25% tax and enjoying a good live style I find it strange that such a strong opinion can be formed on hear-say.
People in Europe - How much tax do you pay?
Is it related in any way to your standard of living.
People not in Europe - What is your impression of Europe and what evidence is it based on?

This is an attempt to cultivate understanding not a slagging match.

Well, in the U.K. the goverment takes in about 46% of GDP in tax. I'll check that figure and get back to you.

In 2003 the percentage of government expenditure as GDP was:

France 44.2%
Germany 36.2%
Netherlands 38.8%
Ireland 30%
Switzerland 29.8%
Sweden 50.8%
Norway 43.9%

A US poster on this forum, who has never left the states, recently told me that socialism in europe was the same as communism.
So did he think the Soviet Union was like Sweden or that Sweden was like the Soviet Union. Either position sounds kind of strange.

So did he think the Soviet Union was like Sweden or that Sweden was like the Soviet Union. Either position sounds kind of strange.

Haha, not only strange, but hilarious!

Anyway, that quip about the US having the highest standard of living in the world is incorrect. Norway does.

i thought Finland had the official higest standard of living in the world...


edit: ah yeah Norway it was. knew it was one of those lot ;)

that quip about the US having the highest standard of living in the world is incorrect. Norway does.
I'll accept that provided you accept that in some specialized ways, Kenya pisses on Norway.

Haha, not only strange, but hilarous!

Anyway, that quip about the US having the highest standard of living in the world is incorrect. Norway does.
aye maybe, but scandinavian liqeur's expensive. that brings you down a little

Well, in the U.K. the goverment takes in about 46% of GDP in tax. I'll check that figure and get back to you.
I'll take your figures as fact. Why not eh?
But My NI at about 9% pays for my basic pension and my health service (somewhat) both things I'd have to pay for privately.
We pay 17.5% VAT (purchase tax) which is more than some and less than others pay)
Then of course there's the council tax which pays for local services and the road tax which in part pays for roads.
It's a lot of tax but my real question is "how does that affect my living standards?"
Does Sweden not have very high taxes but an aclaimed standard of living?
I don't know the answer to that...it's a real question.
I live in a 3 bedroom house in the country, I have a new (if small) car, three kids blah blah blah.
My point that even with taxes at 46% I really do seem to enjoy the other 54% and live well on it which is not the impression that those in the US seem to have of us.

Norway in 2002

Life expectancy at birth: 78.9
Percentage of population with at least 7 years education: 98%
PPP GDP: $36,600 highest in the world.

So did he think the Soviet Union was like Sweden or that Sweden was like the Soviet Union. Either position sounds kind of strange.
he just seemed to think we had no money becuase we payed it all in tax to support the welfare state and so lived in shoe boxes and used old tyres for furniture (sort of). Wild generalisation was the order of the day but i had no evidence from the rest of europe to say he was totally wrong

Norway in 2002

Life expectancy at birth: 78.9
Percentage of population with at least 7 years education: 98%
PPP GDP: $36,600 highest in the world.
Norway sounds good. I'll learn Norwegan immediately :p

French tax rates: 2002

Income tax (Units in Euros):

4,191 0%

4,191 to 8,242 7.05%

8,242 to 14,506 19.74%

14,506 to 23,489 29.14%

23,489 to 38,218 38.54%

38,218 to 47,131 43.94%

47,131 Upwards 52.75%


Compare that to these figures:

http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=109877,00.html

French tax rates: 2002

Income tax (Units in Euros):

4,191 0%

4,191 to 8,242 7.05%

8,242 to 14,506 19.74%

14,506 to 23,489 29.14%

23,489 to 38,218 38.54%

38,218 to 47,131 43.94%

47,131 Upwards 52.75%


Compare that to these figures:

http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=109877,00.html
So not the 75% quoted by my US "friend". wow what a suprise

...But My NI at about 9% pays for my basic pension and my health service (somewhat) both things I'd have to pay for privately.
you trust the government enough to rely on their idea of a pension? You sir, are braver than I.

he just seemed to think we had no money becuase we payed it all in tax to support the welfare state and so lived in shoe boxes and used old tyres for furniture (sort of). Wild generalisation was the order of the day but i had no evidence from the rest of europe to say he was totally wrong

Well, he did seem to forget that many european countries save a lot of money by not going to war in Iraq.

Secondly, more important than tax-numbers is getting your cheque-book in balance ...

you trust the government enough to rely on their idea of a pension? You sir, are braver than I.
Gods no.
I have a private pension and other investments, but at least some of my money goes that way. just ticking off the out goings really. I don't really expect a return. A bit like betting on the Grand National

you trust the government enough to rely on their idea of a pension? You sir, are braver than I.
If you're under forty enough baby boomers will probably have died for you to get a pension. Unless of course they have drained you of your life essence to prolong their own ghoulish lives.

So long as you are getting your money's worth in return (high standard of living, decent education and health care system, etc.), then high taxes are not necessarily a problem, IMO. In fact, more people would probably be willing to pay higher taxes in the states, if they didn't believe it to be a waste.

A US poster on this forum, who has never left the states, recently told me that socialism in europe was the same as communism.
That taxes in France are 75%.
That the standard of living in the US is the highest in the world.
As a European in the UK paying 25% tax and enjoying a good live style I find it strange that such a strong opinion can be formed on hear-say.
People in Europe - How much tax do you pay?
Is it related in any way to your standard of living.
People not in Europe - What is your impression of Europe and what evidence is it based on?

This is an attempt to cultivate understanding not a slagging match.

Like you, I live in the UK and pay 25% income tax. I also pay around another 4.5% of my income in Council (local) tax, and we cough up 17.5% VAT (sales tax) on just about everything except children's clothes and shoes, soap, razor blades, and books, newspapers and magazines. All told we probably do pay more in tax in the UK than they do in the USA -- but then, we don't have to pay for medical insurance, assuming we can afford it, or scrabble around trying to pay medical bills (or just suffering and dying), if we can't afford it. Like everything else, you get what you pay for.

"Standard of living" is a tricky thing to measure, and can be highly subjective -- but given that the USA has an infant mortality rate (which is easy to measure) somewhat higher than Cuba's (see here (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html) and here (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html)) and half as high again as France's (see here (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html)), I think you'd have to come up with a pretty specialised definition to conclude that the USA's is the highest in the world.

There are a lot of people who prefer to believe anything they hear which supports their own point of view, no matter how crazy it might appear to be. There are also people who will concoct, in their own heads, "facts" which they then believe to be true, despite having made them up themselves out of thin air (all human beings do this to some extent -- it's just that most of us have a more realistic idea of what's likely and what's not). Further, there are some people who like making outrageous statements on internet forums to provoke aggressive responses -- presumably because they have unhappy home lives and are starved for attention.

So long as you are getting your money's worth in return (high standard of living, decent education and health care system, etc.), then high taxes are not necessarily a problem, IMO. In fact, more people would probably be willing to pay higher taxes in the states, if they didn't believe it to be a waste.
You've hit the nial on thehead there.
We just have to wait fof the US to come on line to tell us we're all deluded fools and my world will be complete :p

I can think of some areas where it seems that the U.S. could have an economic benefit from more goverment spending:

Some form of national healthcare.

More effective education, support, and healthcare for children of poorer families. (Of course, the U.S. is already a well educated country, but more would help, I think.)

More for maintenance of transport systems: Highways, bridges, etc.

Public spending to reduce crime. This could involve social work, education, and city planning.

I imagine most people in the U.S. would support these ideas. I could be wrong however.

I'll take your figures as fact. Why not eh?
But My NI at about 9% pays for my basic pension and my health service (somewhat) both things I'd have to pay for privately.
We pay 17.5% VAT (purchase tax) which is more than some and less than others pay)
Then of course there's the council tax which pays for local services and the road tax which in part pays for roads.
It's a lot of tax but my real question is "how does that affect my living standards?"
Does Sweden not have very high taxes but an aclaimed standard of living?
I don't know the answer to that...it's a real question.
I live in a 3 bedroom house in the country, I have a new (if small) car, three kids blah blah blah.
My point that even with taxes at 46% I really do seem to enjoy the other 54% and live well on it which is not the impression that those in the US seem to have of us.
You'll probably find that Sweden the model of all the progressive nations in Europe has gone from being in the region of seventh richest country in the world to being 20th. As a result, they're having to reverse their massive 60% tax rates and liberalise. If you look at ocuntries with high tax rates and regulation like Germany and France, there is massive unemployment as opposed ot the uk where there is full emplyoment with relatively, but not low engouh, tax rates.

On an ethical level, why does the Swedish governemnt have a greater moral understanding than you? A wee bit elitist?

People not in Europe - What is your impression of Europe and what evidence is it based on?
I like it; nice and socialists, particularly France, which is very secular.

I prefer Western Europe to Eastern Europe, however (ahving only been to the west and being only interested in going there..).

If my French was better, I'd move to France. Being in Canada is still too close to the USA.

You've hit the nial on thehead there.
We just have to wait fof the US to come on line to tell us we're all deluded fools and my world will be complete :p
That is utter b*llocks. High tax rates are a massive problem. And because of the laffer relationship actually bringsin more revenue for the beloved government. Lower taxes: more incentive to earn and work, less incentive to tax avoid and tax evade. Lower taxes = more revenue as under Thatcher, reagan, Bush jnr, coolidge, kenneedy

Like you, I live in the UK and pay 25% income tax. I also pay around another 4.5% of my income in Council (local) tax, and we cough up 17.5% VAT (sales tax) on just about everything except children's clothes and shoes, soap, razor blades, and books, newspapers and magazines. All told we probably do pay more in tax in the UK than they do in the USA -- but then, we don't have to pay for medical insurance, assuming we can afford it, or scrabble around trying to pay medical bills (or just suffering and dying), if we can't afford it. Like everything else, you get what you pay for.

"Standard of living" is a tricky thing to measure, and can be highly subjective -- but given that the USA has an infant mortality rate (which is easy to measure) somewhat higher than Cuba's (see here (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html) and here (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html)) and half as high again as France's (see here (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html)), I think you'd have to come up with a pretty specialised definition to conclude that the USA's is the highest in the world.

There are a lot of people who prefer to believe anything they hear which supports their own point of view, no matter how crazy it might appear to be. There are also people who will concoct, in their own heads, "facts" which they then believe to be true, despite having made them up themselves out of thin air (all human beings do this to some extent -- it's just that most of us have a more realistic idea of what's likely and what's not). Further, there are some people who like making outrageous statements on internet forums to provoke aggressive responses -- presumably because they have unhappy home lives and are starved for attention.
i think you're confusing quality of life with standard of living which tends to crudely measure gdp per head as a

That is utter b*llocks. High tax rates are a massive problem. And because of the laffer relationship actually bringsin more revenue for the beloved government. Lower taxes: more incentive to earn and work, less incentive to tax avoid and tax evade. Lower taxes = more revenue as under Thatcher, reagan, Bush jnr, coolidge, kenneedy

to quote myself it might be allright for the champagne swigging guardian reading lcasses to like high tax but it aint for the poor people.

That is utter b*llocks. High tax rates are a massive problem. And because of the laffer relationship actually bringsin more revenue for the beloved government. Lower taxes: more incentive to earn and work, less incentive to tax avoid and tax evade. Lower taxes = more revenue as under Thatcher, reagan, Bush jnr, coolidge, kenneedy
wasn't coolidge a vegetable by the end of his presidency. or are you referring to the xx.1th president.. Mrs C Coolidge?

And because of the laffer relationship actually bringsin more revenue for the beloved government. Lower taxes: more incentive to earn and work, less incentive to tax avoid and tax evade. Lower taxes = more revenue as under Thatcher, reagan, Bush jnr, coolidge, kenneedy
Umm... The Reagan tax cuts and the George Bush Junior tax cuts, the two largest in U.S. history, both actually reduced government revenue. I think it will depend somewhat upon the culture and situation, but the Laffer curve may not kick in until marginal tax rates are 80-90% or more. You could investigate how high income earners in the U.S. behaved during World War II and see if they reduced the amount they worked enough for Laffer curve effects when they were taxed at 90%. I have anedotal evidence that some actors worked significantly less, but I don't know about other high income earners.

I wonder how long it will take for this thread to turn into a pissing contest between American nationalists and European nationalists.

That is utter b*llocks. High tax rates are a massive problem. And because of the laffer relationship actually bringsin more revenue for the beloved government. Lower taxes: more incentive to earn and work, less incentive to tax avoid and tax evade. Lower taxes = more revenue as under Thatcher, reagan, Bush jnr, coolidge, kenneedy
You seem very angry.
I really feel that payin slightly higher taxes benifits everyone the govt. manages the money correctly. Those who can't work or earn very little are taxed less yet are given exactly the same services as the rich. This seems right. Why should my bin man who earns peanuts have to pay the same for his health service as I (earning significantly more) do.
I'm not familiar with laffer (thought he might be a typo for a bit there)
I want to talk on more general terms. Why are Americans and right wing Europeans angry at high taxes when they have such a great standard of living.
Do you really need enough money to buy one more DVD player or a bigger TV?
Is it not a reasonable question to ask?

'European Socialism'? They keep that well hidden...

But, yes, I agree with Jeldred and the thread starter. This doesn't mean that money couldn't be spent a hell of a lot better.

You'll probably find that Sweden the model of all the progressive nations in Europe has gone from being in the region of seventh richest country in the world to being 20th. As a result, they're having to reverse their massive 60% tax rates and liberalise. If you look at ocuntries with high tax rates and regulation like Germany and France, there is massive unemployment as opposed ot the uk where there is full emplyoment with relatively, but not low engouh, tax rates.

The UK does not have "full employment". The current rate is estimated at 4.8% (http://www.indexmundi.com/united_kingdom/unemployment_rate.html). Neither do France or Germany have "massive" unemployment. France's is estimated to be around 10.1% (http://www.indexmundi.com/france/unemployment_rate.html), and Germany's is around 10.6% (http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/unemployment_rate.html). Not good, certainly, but comparable to the UK's under Thatcher (the USA's unemployment rate is estimated at 5.5% (http://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/unemployment_rate.html)). France and Germany also have superior healthcare systems, much better state pensions and far more generously-funded schools than the supposedly "better-off" UK. You get what you pay for.

That is utter b*llocks. High tax rates are a massive problem. And because of the laffer relationship actually bringsin more revenue for the beloved government. Lower taxes: more incentive to earn and work, less incentive to tax avoid and tax evade. Lower taxes = more revenue as under Thatcher, reagan, Bush jnr, coolidge, kenneedy

And yet, strangely, this is never actually found to be the case. Thatcher's great tax-cutting frenzy in the 1980s resulted in soaring UK public-sector borrowing (i.e. the state revenue was *lower*, even after Thatcher's swingeing cuts to public services and the flogging off of state assets). Reagan's America similarly ran up monstrous debts, again despite huge public spending cuts. Bush Jnr. is finding exactly the same thing. In other words, these governments decreased taxes AND cut public spending, and yet found themselves running up gargantuan debts. Therefore, it doesn't take an economic genius to realise that this "reduce tax and increase revenue" line is pure BS.

This is departing somewhat from the thrust of the thread. But it's a good example of how people can say such things with a perfectly straight face, in spite of plenty of easily-available evidence to the contrary, simply because they have an emotional attachment to the dogma.

'European Socialism'? They keep that well hidden...

But, yes, I agree with Jeldred and the thread starter. This doesn't mean that money couldn't be spent a hell of a lot better.
Money can always be spent better. Who needs nuclear weapons and wars in the middle east?

to quote myself it might be allright for the champagne swigging guardian reading lcasses to like high tax but it aint for the poor people.
I thought it was the other way around.

Income Tax
Tax on earnings under €2,860/year = 0%
Tax on earnings under €30,000/year = 20%
Tax on earnings over €30,000/year = 42%

Value Added Tax (Sales Tax) = 21%

Corporate Tax = 12.5%

he just seemed to think we had no money becuase we payed it all in tax to support the welfare state and so lived in shoe boxes and used old tyres for furniture (sort of). Wild generalisation was the order of the day but i had no evidence from the rest of europe to say he was totally wrong
I remember in Austria between the income tax and the VAT taxes, a substantial amount of your pay went to the government. I still have relatives there who complain that they pay far too much for goods that cost far less here in the US - and they complain that their gross pay is already lower than the US, and subjected to taxes, there's practically nothing left.

Of course, I'm hearing that from a doctor who is working in a system of national health care - and the first place they decided to cut the budget to keep costs down was the salaries of the doctors. They make nowhere near what a doctor in the US makes - in fact, it's on a par with what a US certified mechanic makes.

However - in most states in Europe that translates into something tangible as a benefit. I don't think anyone would like to pay a lot of taxes and see no benefits. Health care costs are lower, and the government is providing national health care as a benefit. So good for most people.

My relative is planning to leave Austria and come to the US. He's figured out that with his level of skill and training, he could live a better life here.

Norway has its standard of living primarily because of the oil it produces. It would be different if there were no oil at all.

The US was ranked what... 8th or something on standard of living? Middle of the pack amoungst western nations.

Norway in 2002

Life expectancy at birth: 78.9
Percentage of population with at least 7 years education: 98%
PPP GDP: $36,600 highest in the world.

According to 2004 numbers, GDP per capita in the U.S. is about $40,100, while Norway trails slightly at $40,000. And 2005 estimates for life expectancy are 77.7 for the U.S. and 79.4 for Norway... not even two years apart. Not very impressive on Norway's part, considering how fat Americans are. Luxembourg, on the other hand, has a GDP per capita of $58,900 as of 2004 and 78.7 years as its life expectancy - blows Norway out of the water, in my opinion. I don't know where you get a figure like "at least 7 years education." But, whatever. Of course, the U.S. can blow them both out of the water, so what's it matter. ;)

And 2005 estimates for life expectancy are 77.7 for the U.S. and 79.4 for Norway... not even two years apart. Not very impressive on Norway's part, considering how fat Americans are.

Population size plays a major role in such figures. The United states has about 360,000,000 people and Norway about 12,000,000. Even with a large amount of obese people, America could still make up for it in that not the whole population is obese. I, for example, am 6' and 125lbs. What I think I'm saying is that each individual person makes less of a dent in that factor in America than in Norway. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't such figures also take things like medical care/access, enviromental factors, behaviours (like smoking, drinking) into consideration? I never thought the life expectancy figures were as simple as just fat/not fat.

I'll accept that provided you accept that in some specialized ways, Kenya pisses on Norway.

Where are ze lions? Only in Kenya!

i just want to say: in the US 12% of the people lives in poverty, while in countries like the Netherlands and Sweden no one lives in poverty. There are people that dont have much to spend, but it is always enough for the basic things in live.

i just want to say: in the US 12% of the people lives in poverty, while in countries like the Netherlands and Sweden no one lives in poverty. There are people that dont have much to spend, but it is always enough for the basic things in live.

That's like saying that even though people in the US are poor, they aren't starving to death.

yup but if there was more taxing, the rich people couldnt buy there 20 Ferari, but the poor people could buy more, and enjoy there live more.

yup but if there was more taxing, the rich people couldnt buy there 20 Ferari, but the poor people could buy more, and enjoy there live more.

We already have basic welfare services (money, food, shelter, medicine, job training) for the poor.

It may not be efficiently administered, and in the early 1980s, courts decided that you can't force people to stay in shelters, subsidized housing, or mental institutions - so we have homeless people.

Being in "poverty" in America is not what you think. It's not that different from being in "poverty" in Germany - except that in Germany, the police can force you to go to a shelter, or force you to live in subsidized housing.

Does anyone know what tax rates are in the US. We seem agreed that european rates are all about the same (give or take) but have yet to see US figures as a comparison.
Standard of living seems difficult to measure. can someone come up with a definition that goes across the board no matter where you live.
Something like:- If your TV blew up could you afford a new one easily and obviously some other general tests of disposable income and general wealth and health

Being in "poverty" in America is not what you think. It's not that different from being in "poverty" in Germany - except that in Germany, the police can force you to go to a shelter, or force you to live in subsidized housing.
Dont know where you got that, but it is incorrect. You have to provide a home adress where, in theory, mail could reach you, as some official documents are send via postal services, but you are free to be homeless if you want. You do, on the other hand get you social security money at the Sozialamt (social security bureau) next to your official adress.
The Sozialamt has to provide you with a sugestion for a fully payed for flat if one is available, but you are free to decline it.

Dont know where you got that, but it is incorrect. You have to provide a home adress where, in theory, mail could reach you, as some official documents are send via postal services, but you are free to be homeless if you want. You do, on the other hand get you social security money at the Sozialamt (social security bureau) next to your official adress.
The Sozialamt has to provide you with a sugestion for a fully payed for flat if one is available, but you are free to decline it.

I was friends with a lot of the polizei in Stuttgart.

They routinely arrested "homeless" people who had actual apartments, but who kept trying to live on the street. It's against the law.

They would arrest them, and the judge would order them to live in their apartment.

This would be repeated every few weeks.

The police gave everyone a break on Christmas, so they old homeless farts could sit on the steps of a public building, get drunk, and sing songs. It was the most homeless people I ever saw in Germany at one time (about 20 of them).

I was told that they tried to keep these people indoors, so that the city would not appear unsightly.

Does anyone know what tax rates are in the US.

Here you go (again):

http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=109877,00.html

British people do pay roughly 70% tax...once you've factored in income tax, NI, council tax, fuel tax and other duties plus VAT on those duties, plus normal VAT but other little taxes such as car tax and stmap duty for your house purchase plus those taxes when you die.

Do i mind? Not really, thing is if Britain didn't have totally opposed policitical powers it may have done a much better job in spending that money. unfortunatly every so often we change government for something totally at the other scale. Every policy seems to change. If there were a little more concensus.... :rolleyes:

Anyway as for the standard of living as mentioned earlier the infant mortality rate is higher in the US...not only that but large portions of society live without health care...also i read but have no source (sorry) but due to the USA's relaxed attitude to the enviroment you are more likely to be ill earlier in the USA than in any other western European country.

I also think that a lot of the perception of taxes is colored by the local population's perception of the services they receive in exchange.

In addition to the US federal tax, there are various state taxes - which differ from state to state. There are also taxes at the county level (which vary).

A state like Alaska apparently doesn't have an income tax - they make enough money from oil to not bother with it (I call this the Norway effect - you have a lot of oil, and it skews things).

I like to know how well my money is spent. Let's look at a classic US example.

The schools in Fairfax County, Virginia, are some of the best performing schools in the US. They have new buildings, new equipment, the teachers all have a master's degree at a minimum, and the students regularly are the top performers in national standardized tests. And you might expect that - they spend enough money per student to make you think that is a possibility. Our state taxes and our local property taxes fund the education system in Fairfax County, and the property taxes are not low.

The schools in Washington, D.C. are considered some of the worst in the United States. They have extremely high dropout rates. The newest school in the system was built 35 years ago, most were built over 50 years ago, and one high school was built in 1878. They are in extremely poor repair. There is a severe shortage of equipment, little in the way of computers, old and damaged books, teachers that are not certified - in some cases they lack a bachelor's degree. And yet the schools in Washington, D.C. spend more per student than Fairfax County, Virginia - indeed, they spend more per student than ANY school district in the United States.

Just because you spend money on public good and public services doesn't mean you get anything for your money. Here in the US, we've been burned enough to know that lesson well.

I was friends with a lot of the polizei in Stuttgart.

They routinely arrested "homeless" people who had actual apartments, but who kept trying to live on the street. It's against the law.
Loitering on private property is unlawfull, as well as on the premises of public buildings. Believe me, you are not forced to stay in your government provided flat, if they could provide you one firsthand, or shelters. If you find places where people tolerate drunken bums, you are allowed to sleep outside, for weeks or month if you like. Public drunkenness, loitering, erratic behaviour and disturbance of public peace might get you removed from the site you are on and a night in jail to become sober again, even a fine or jail if the disturbance is really grievious, but if you just choose to spend your days and nights without a roof over your head and dont break any tangetial laws you are fine. Thats were most bums fail, but being homeless as such is not illegal.

Population size plays a major role in such figures. The United states has about 360,000,000 people and Norway about 12,000,000.

4.2 to 4.5 million depending upon source. :)

Considering it was my comments that led to the formation of this thread I thought I should says something

British people do pay roughly 70% tax...once you've factored in income tax, NI, council tax, fuel tax and other duties plus VAT on those duties, plus normal VAT but other little taxes such as car tax and stmap duty for your house purchase plus those taxes when you die.

I’m sure this is what my friend (who lived in France for 2 years and told me of the high tax rate) meant. 75% not just from income but from all the sales taxes you have in your supposedly “free market”

About standard of living, if Europe’s is higher than the US why did thousands of people die from that heat wave when the Sahara winds blew over Europe? In the US we get temperatures worse than that in the central states every day in the summer (no moderating oceans stinks don’t it) but thousands don’t die from the heat. In the US almost every building has some form of air conditioning and it would seem our medical facilities are better equipped.

Someone mentioned infant mortality: we do have that problem in the US. But it is because we are currently in an AIDs epidemic (no, I am not claiming its as bad as Africa‘s). This is because poor, mostly urban people feel the need to screw around without using cheap and reliable protection. So they contract HIV and then later have a kid who is born with AIDs and dies rather quickly. There is really nothing the government could do to stop this. They have been trying for years, but the poor folk think they are invincible or something.

Anyway, it is my personal belief that Socialists are nothing more than pawns of communism. Some socialists are really communists and they manipulate the others and slowly move them towards communism. They will not succeed in most of Europe however. The way things are going for ya’ll, you will probably become Islamic fundamentalists states over the course of the next 100 years anyway.

I did find it odd that all those old people bought the farm in France during that heat wave. I thought they had air conditioning there.

Here in the US, old people used to die like that in the 1950s when the heat waves came.

Some still do, but it's fairly rare, and considered unique enough to be a news story if you hear about an "old woman dying of heatstroke in her hot apartment".

<<In the US we get temperatures worse than that in the central states every day in the summer (no moderating oceans stinks don’t it) but thousands don’t die from the heat. In the US almost every building has some form of air conditioning and it would seem our medical facilities are better equipped.
>>

You are what is known as 'prepared' and 'used to it'. We aren't used to that kind of heatwave so we weren't ready for it.

<<Anyway, it is my personal belief that Socialists are nothing more than pawns of communism.>>

Guess what the Labour party did behind closed doors. Yp, they sang the commie anthems. We know they are (correction were, they took a hell of a right-shift under Blair) communist, but quite frankly, we like the decent free healthcare system and the centrist politics far better than we like the looks of the US.

Population size plays a major role in such figures. The United states has about 360,000,000 people and Norway about 12,000,000. Even with a large amount of obese people, America could still make up for it in that not the whole population is obese. I, for example, am 6' and 125lbs. What I think I'm saying is that each individual person makes less of a dent in that factor in America than in Norway. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't such figures also take things like medical care/access, enviromental factors, behaviours (like smoking, drinking) into consideration? I never thought the life expectancy figures were as simple as just fat/not fat.
Very good point. I think there's only around 4 million Norwegians, although I must admit, I've never actually counted all of them... and yes, it's petty to post this, but I'm a Swede... the thought of being outnumbered by Norwegians is just too much to take ;)

As for the notion that European Socialism = Communism, that's just silly. However, this forum then goes on to debate mainly quality of life matters, which seem to make the assumption that Europe is Socialist, such a view may be common in USA; however Europe as an entire entity couldn't really be called Socialist. Of course, it varies widely by country.

a comment for the original poster
socialism is not communism, but it is a step in that direction.
i consider national socialism to be hitlers true legacy in europe.

on the matter of taxes.
the US like most other nations uses a varaiety of usage based taxes (gas, food, sales etc..) most people though gage this by the stadard income tax taken in by the federal or national governments. in the USA there are 6 tax brackets based on income. the lowest starts around 10% and the highest is around 37% in fact due to this the "rich" tend to pay for more of the overall income tax than most citizens. national governemtn tax wise europe does exact a larger national tax to pay for it's burgeoning welfare systems which people have come to expect.

on this issue i see "health care" mentioned alot. yes healthcare may be "free" (not really since your paying for it even if you do not use it via the higher tax) but is that really better? especially if it takes on average of 6 months to get your free doctors visit?
the lack of motivation evident in a capatalist competative evironment or society is something the old soviet regeim learned the hard way. why should you accel or push yourself to do better say as a doctor if the government who runs the health care systems pays you the same rate for a broken toe as it does for open heart surgery?

it is my understanding that thecurrent over blown social welfare system in most of western europe is actually slowly bankrupting those governments and thier economies.

Considering it was my comments that led to the formation of this thread I thought I should says something



I’m sure this is what my friend (who lived in France for 2 years and told me of the high tax rate) meant. 75% not just from income but from all the sales taxes you have in your supposedly “free market”

.
Ha you spotted that then :p
It was reasonable for me to ask around what people felt about your assertion wasn't it?
I see how we could make a 75% tax but you also seemed to assert that those paying the taxes were living in a form of poverty which they don't seem to admit to.
I have yet to see the US tax rates here (I know there's link pasted...I just didn't click it yet)
Do the base rates plus sales taxes etc etc plus health insurance, unemployment insurance etc. ect add up to a great deal less than we pay?
I think the summs are gonna be very tough to do fairly and I suspect that each side of the Atlantis lives in similar style happy with things as they are at home. but please don't judge us remotely. Come visit then comment.

That do people actualle mean then they comparing comunism and socialism? Don't people know that the so called communist countries don't show the problem with high taxer or wanting to create equal societies.

Because that the historical communist countries have done is through revolution taking over power and replacing a bad elite with a new elite that suppost to be for the people and create a equal society. But as many other revolution they ended badly because if you under a brutale dictatorship that is useally poor and you do a revolution it is very hard not to get corrupted in the process. Ecpecially if you let a new elite rule after the revolution becuae they have a tendency to get corrupted very fast.

But this have mutch more to do with other historical revolution and dictatorship then it has with the idea of the equal society. Because the history is full of revolution there the revolutionist is corrupted by the new power.

So basicly is it as silly comparing democratic socialliberal countries in europe there liberals and socialist want more equalite through democratic means with communis as it is to compare conservative USA there neoliberals and conservatism want evryone fend for them self on the free market with fascist countries.

The USA and Europe can't be compared as simply as that.
Europe is more densely populated, the USA is on the other side of the Atlantic, has a different climate and different landscape. The US uses the dollar, Europe uses the euro and some other currencies. The history and culture is not the same. Both western europe and the US are rich because of colonization and third world raping. The richest ones are the ones which raped the most/got raped the less.
Tax rate doesn't directly relate to life expectancy and to standard of living.
Some countries have high tax rate, good standard of living, others have low tax rate, good standard of living, some have bad standard of living and high or low tax rate. History, culture, climate and land are more important factor in the standard of living of a country.

People in the netherlands and germany arnt put in houses if there homeless.. if they want to be on the streets they can, in the netherlands they can get a cardboard house... the size of person where they can sleep in if it is to cold. And they can get a free meal in specieal buildings for them, where they can sleep if its gets to hot or to cold on the street.

And uhh we dont mind the high tax rate in the Netherlands, its because of the tax we have some of the cleanest water served right in our homes... the 12% of people in the states who live in poverty have to buy water bottles in a store. We have far less power failures then in the US cause from our tax the Energy infrastructure is better looked after.

Our crime rate is lower then in the US cause the Poor<>Rich difference isnt as big as in the USl, cause poor people in the US see the rich with so much more then they have, so they will go steal more often.

And uhh we dont mind the high tax rate in the Netherlands, its because of the tax we have some of the cleanest water served right in our homes... the 12% of people in the states who live in poverty have to buy water bottles in a store. We have far less power failures then in the US cause from our tax the Energy infrastructure is better looked after.

You do know that tests have confirmed that US tap water is cleaner (and alot cheaper) than bottled water right? People just buy bottled water because they happen to be idiots and they beleive all the crap that the French tell us about their springs.

Oh, and that electricity bit is great. Most of Europe has so little electricity that they can't have air conditioning or decent sized refrigerators. Yeah alot better than the US. :rolleyes:

i consider national socialism to be hitlers true legacy in europe.
WTF? You think most European governments adhere to a Nazi (national socialist) ideology???

You do know that tests have confirmed that US tap water is cleaner (and alot cheaper) than bottled water right? People just buy bottled water because they happen to be idiots and they beleive all the crap that the French tell us about their springs.

Oh, and that electricity bit is great. Most of Europe has so little electricity that they can't have air conditioning or decent sized refrigerators. Yeah alot better than the US. :rolleyes:

:D
Undelia, you astonish me everytime you open your mouth! That's quite a feat.

I assure you, we do have air conditioning (if we needed it, most of the year its rather cold in Hamburg) and we have decent sized fridges (that unlike their US equivalents also have an efficient energy usage).
France has heaps of nuclear power plants and makes a lot of money exporting Elecricity to other countries, so there's gotta be some left over.

Please link your assurances, so we can see the truth too. What kind of test and on what website can we see it?

And how dare the French tell you that their water comes from mountain springs! How dare them!
But I guess that's what the free market will do to people, hey Undelia?

And your friend who lives in France. Who is he? What kind of person lives there, yet tells you these things? My poor Undelia, I think you are being conned by this evil, possibly French, person who is trying to make you look stupid!
Get him!

More, Undelia, more! You make me smile...

Undelia, you astonish me everytime you open your mouth! That's quite a feat.

I do what I can. :)


I assure you, we do have air conditioning (if we needed it, most of the year its rather cold in Hamburg) and we have decent sized fridges (that unlike their US equivalents also have an efficient energy usage).

How big are your fridges? Ours are big enough to hold at least a week's worth of refrigerated goods for a family of four. (remember we Americans eat quite a lot :D ) This is why Americans only have to do grocery shopping about once a week. I am told that you guys buy the food you are going to eat the day you are going to eat it or some other nonsense. Anyway, if France has air conditioners then why did all those people die in that heat wave? Maybe they just aren't as good as the ones in the states. ;)


Please link your assurances, so we can see the truth too. What kind of test and on what website can we see it?

Normally I wouldn't give you the satisfaction but I am feeling generous, so here (http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/DrWater/drinkingwater.php#Overview)


And how dare the French tell you that their water comes from mountain springs! How dare them!

I was referring to Evion (or is it Avion?), its bottled French mountain spring water and they sell it to idiots in the US, even though tap is cheaper.

And your friend who lives in France. Who is he? What kind of person lives there, yet tells you these things? My poor Undelia, I think you are being conned by this evil, possibly French, person who is trying to make you look stupid!

My friend who lived in France for two years is an American. He comes from a very wealthy family and apparently they have done quite a bit of globe hopping.

More, Undelia, more! You make me smile...

Once again, I do what I can.

I am told that you guys buy the food you are going to eat the day you are going to eat it or some other nonsense. Anyway, if France has air conditioners then why did all those people die in that heat wave?

Well, they do that in some places (a picturesque tuscany village comes to mind), namely because they have access to fresh food, which they wish to use in freshly prepared dishes. In such a case, it is indeed common procedure to buy the food shortly before preparation commences.
I believe the majority of the people that died were old people who didn't feel like opening their windows. They didn't have aircon because the majority of the year most of Europe is cold enough to live without it. It's their own fault, but hardly because there isn't enough electricity.

Normally I wouldn't give you the satisfaction but I am feeling generous, so here (http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/DrWater/drinkingwater.php#Overview)
Thanks, that made you look so much more credible in just an instant.

I was referring to Evion (or is it Avion?), its bottled French mountain spring water and they sell it to idiots in the US, even though tap is cheaper.
That's the free market. People will chose on many criteria, including but not exclusively on price. If the French make a nice water and sell it in the US, then that's free trade and good for all of us. An old Capitalist such as you should be proud and have a tricolor flying on your house!
Also I don't think Evion was mentioned in your report.

My friend who lived in France for two years is an American. He comes from a very wealthy family and apparently they have done quite a bit of globe hopping.
And then why would he tell you things like in France they pay 75% tax and they don't have electricity. Generally people who are globetrotters generally become less ignorant.
-------------------------------
Believe me, Europe is not over-taxed. That is a belief naturally coming from US domestic politics. Your Republicans tell you:
"The Liberals (Democrats) want to raise your taxes!!!" and also
"Old Europe is weak-minded and liberal!!!"
Ergo: In Europe they raise the taxes all the time.

PS:
By now, the German Government has lowered Business Taxes to a level below the US rate.
In Germany, there is no minimum wage as such.
In most of Germany, investment is heavily subsidised by local Governments.
Most of that goes for France as well.
Sounds hardly communistic to me...

So did he think the Soviet Union was like Sweden or that Sweden was like the Soviet Union. Either position sounds kind of strange.

I've offered my "conservative American"-"sensible English" translation services before, so I feel they are needed again here in order to clarify the issue.

Conservative - Facist.
Liberal - Communist, literate, homosexual, athiest.
Communist - Satanist.
"One of them peope what, uh, you know, thinks that people should share everythin' 'n stuff." - Christian, Socialist.
Christian - Facist.
Facist - Abolitionist.

I was referring to Evion (or is it Avion?), its bottled French mountain spring water and they sell it to idiots in the US, even though tap is cheaper.

Both wrong It's Evian. Just remember it's Naive spelled backwards.

It sounds like some sort of joke marketing meeting they had in France. "How stupid do I sink ze Americans are? I bet we could get zem to buy water."

"Now Henri, zee Americans, zey are pretty stupid, but even zey will not buy water."

(with confident air of smug superiority) "Zey will buy it if we tell zem it is from France."
Hey! It worked for Beaujolais Nouveau.

That's the free market. People will chose on many criteria, including but not exclusively on price. If the French make a nice water and sell it in the US, then that's free trade and good for all of us. An old Capitalist such as you should be proud and have a tricolor flying on your house!
Also I don't think Evion was mentioned in your report.

Well, as Dubya tells us the free market invariably runs into trouble where the French are concerned because they don't have a word for "entrepeneur."

Although, now that I think about it, they ought to be a production powerhouse, seeing as how they don't have a word for fatigue.

That's the free market. People will chose on many criteria, including but not exclusively on price. If the French make a nice water and sell it in the US, then that's free trade and good for all of us. An old Capitalist such as you should be proud and have a tricolor flying on your house!

There is nothing anti-capitalist about a private citizen encouraging people not to buy a product. And the day I fly a tricolor is the day someone shoves it into my cold dead fist.

And then why would he tell you things like in France they pay 75% tax and they don't have electricity. Generally people who are globetrotters generally become less ignorant.

As I said before, he was including income tax along with the exorbitant sales taxes and the special taxes on gasoline and such.

About those taxes, I beleive someone posted what the income tax rates in France are. Yes here they are,

French tax rates: 2002

Income tax (Units in Euros):

4,191 0%

4,191 to 8,242 7.05%

8,242 to 14,506 19.74%

14,506 to 23,489 29.14%

23,489 to 38,218 38.54%

38,218 to 47,131 43.94%

47,131 Upwards 52.75%


Just sad. :( I thought that the US's rouphly 1/3 tax on six figures was bad but this is awful.

Both wrong It's Evian. Just remember it's Naive spelled backwards.

Thank you. I shall never forget that again. :D

There is nothing anti-capitalist about a private citizen encouraging people not to buy a product. And the day I fly a tricolor is the day someone shoves it into my cold dead fist.

Hmmm... If I pay you to wave a French flag will you do it?

is teh pissing contest started? yeah let's roll.
Europe kiks ur @$$ coz we have ze leopold tank and ze larger penis.

Hmmm... If I pay you to wave a French flag will you do it?

How much are we talking? I could always close my eyes and pretend I was saluting Napoleon...

If you look at ocuntries with high tax rates and regulation like Germany and France, there is massive unemployment as opposed ot the uk where there is full emplyoment with relatively, but not low engouh, tax rates.



Erm, sorry to burst the bubble, but the UK does not have full employment.
And I for one would be more than happy to pay more taxes for better public services. These things do not pay for themselves. They must be financed one way or the other. If I become unemployed, than I will get money from the government to live (although not very much!) If I am ill, then I can walk into a hospital for treatment. I came down with appendicitis about a year ago. I had a doctors appointment within three hours, had been admitted to hospital three hours after that (had to go home first, or else it would have been sooner) and was in theatre three hours after that. It didn't cost me any money.

Lower taxes are a pipe dream, and a Tory one at that.

Blessings
Cyber

How big are your fridges? Ours are big enough to hold at least a week's worth of refrigerated goods for a family of four. (remember we Americans eat quite a lot :D ) This is why Americans only have to do grocery shopping about once a week. I am told that you guys buy the food you are going to eat the day you are going to eat it or some other nonsense.
hihiiihhi haaaahahhaaaahhaa snort. heh. Oh yeah, the size of your fridges reveals your income. You know what? We like to make our own food, not just heat some precooked stuff. And we like to eat fresh food. Why on earth I'd want to eat bread that's more than 3 days old. Or meat, or fish, or fruits...

Anyway, I'm not taking you seriously, don't take me too seriously either. :)

hihiiihhi haaaahahhaaaahhaa snort. heh. Oh yeah, the size of your fridges reveals your income. You know what? We like to make our own food, not just heat some precooked stuff. And we like to eat fresh food. Why on earth I'd want to eat bread that's more than 3 days old. Or meat, or fish, or fruits...

Anyway, I'm not taking you seriously, don't take me too seriously either. :)

That and in general European homes are smaller than American ones (simply because we have less available land), and so we can't afford to space to have a Space Shuttle sized fridge in our kitchens.

to quote myself it might be allright for the champagne swigging guardian reading lcasses to like high tax but it aint for the poor people.

hey! im a liberal looney lefty pinko commie guardianista, but i dont swig champagne.


it gets a bit tedious after you drink it ALL the time...

Yeah. Cider's better anyway.

Or that good beer from Witchwood.

My parents have two huge fridges and two huge freezers in the kitchen, all full of food and they shop several times a week to keep them filled. :eek:

I on the other hand have a pretty small fridge, with little food in it, but I do try to shop several times a week to fill it.

My parents have two huge fridges and two huge freezers in the kitchen, all full of food and they shop several times a week to keep them filled. :eek:

I on the other hand have a pretty small fridge, with little food in it, but I do try to shop several times a week to fill it.
=your parents are loaded (and fat) and you're poor because you have to pay so much taxes... ;)

In yesterday's news they said that the taxation on people with low income is actually quite easy in Finland. Our income taxation is progressive but high VATs and other costs make sure that the progressiveness is just a mask to keep us with low income happy.

Erm, sorry to burst the bubble, but the UK does not have full employment.
And I for one would be more than happy to pay more taxes for better public services. These things do not pay for themselves. They must be financed one way or the other. If I become unemployed, than I will get money from the government to live (although not very much!) If I am ill, then I can walk into a hospital for treatment. I came down with appendicitis about a year ago. I had a doctors appointment within three hours, had been admitted to hospital three hours after that (had to go home first, or else it would have been sooner) and was in theatre three hours after that. It didn't cost me any money.

Lower taxes are a pipe dream, and a Tory one at that.

Blessings
Cyber


Full employment doesn't mean 100% employment. It's a term used to basically say that more or less everyone who could be employed is, which assumes that people will spend time in between jobs, and also that some people are just unemployable. The UK, in these terms, is currently considered to have 'full employment' because more or less anyone will get a job if they look. That isn't the case on the continent.


You know, there is so much debate about whether high taxes or low taxes are better for economies, but actually it's never been found to make all that much difference, contrary to what people seem to think. Keynes is still right - in the short term it's borrowing that boosts economies, and saving that cools them. Reagan and GW Bush didn't boost economies by cutting taxes per se, it was the borrowing that helped.

Full employment doesn't mean 100% employment. It's a term used to basically say that more or less everyone who could be employed is, which assumes that people will spend time in between jobs, and also that some people are just unemployable. The UK, in these terms, is currently considered to have 'full employment' because more or less anyone will get a job if they look. That isn't the case on the continent.


You know, there is so much debate about whether high taxes or low taxes are better for economies, but actually it's never been found to make all that much difference, contrary to what people seem to think. Keynes is still right - in the short term it's borrowing that boosts economies, and saving that cools them. Reagan and GW Bush didn't boost economies by cutting taxes per se, it was the borrowing that helped.

Pssst. Keynes = Commie Bastard! Careful what you say, Undelia might hear it!
;)

Well hear hear all of you....
What ever you think Socialism is inexistant in europa,may be by US standart it is but by european standart it is just a farce.
I did live in the street in France(i was 14) and believe me althought it was Socialism(Mitterand) well it had nothing to do with it,it is a matter of fact they just turn (1983) to a liberalisering politics economics,chirac just was even worst.
Well i can mistaking but i live now in Holland,i did work now(france.and here) but i don't feel confortable.Social structure are beeing destroy,they put monney for war but also say they don't have enough for health and hance social sector.Top manager earn 450 000+ euro /year,while the hard working one come to if he is lucky at about 20000.if this is socialism then i'm the first agnostic pope ;)
And does US/England/nederlands,make a difference between libertair and liberals?

You do know that tests have confirmed that US tap water is cleaner (and alot cheaper) than bottled water right? People just buy bottled water because they happen to be idiots and they beleive all the crap that the French tell us about their springs.

Oh, and that electricity bit is great. Most of Europe has so little electricity that they can't have air conditioning or decent sized refrigerators. Yeah alot better than the US.

Im not sure about the tapwater in the US being cleaner, but i do know that im never ever drinking North Carolina water again, it tastes repulsive.

The headwave that cost so many people their lives was a huge exception, normally the temperatures arent even close to that high, that means that lots of people simply dont buy airco because its wasting money.

I do have a small fridge, but thats mostly because i have several shops within a minutes walk of my front door, and i like freshly bought food. Nothing quite like a steak that still moo's on my plate ;)

i dont think americans care for fresh food, they just want it to be really fat & fast. Tap water from germany and the netherlands are the cleanest in the region, in some regions in france u have to boil your water before u can drink it, in the US it is just the same in some regions.

I guess that's why when I lived in Stuttgart, the local government said never to drink the tap water. Must be quite clean.

There are localized problems with tap water in the US, but if you meet the government standards for tap water, you're going to find it has less bacteria than bottled water (in general).

Water will mostly vary by mineral content here in the US - that can radically affect the taste.

And Americans do care for fresh food - otherwise we wouldn't have grocery stores like Whole Foods and Wegman's that make every European store I've seen look like a Soviet-era grocery store.

Fast food is not a strictly American phenomenon. Let's take Germany for example. Ever wonder why things like henschen (did I spell that right), or doner kebab, or currywurst, or butter pretzels are popular fast food (fast food that isn't American!) - it's fatty, it's fried, and it's fast.

Heck, I could count the number of french fries the Germans eat - smothered in mayonnaise (which is pure fat). Oooh, fried potatoes smothered in fat! At least the Americans eat ketchup on their fries.

And Americans do care for fresh food - otherwise we wouldn't have grocery stores like Whole Foods and Wegman's that make every European store I've seen look like a Soviet-era grocery store.
That's just propaganda! Don't trust him comrades! There's no such thing as Wegman's!

That's just propaganda! Don't trust him comrades!
When Americans are travelling, or on the move, or at work, they eat fast food crap - just like everyone else.

About the healthiest fast food I saw in Germany was a piece of pickled herring on a bread roll. Other than that, it was all greasy, fried, fatty food - and I hadn't even stepped into a McDonalds.

You have to admit, though, that a potato with a bit of fat, and a glass of beer, is nearly the perfect food combination.

You have to admit, though, that a potato with a bit of fat, and a glass of beer, is nearly the perfect food combination.
I have to admit nothing! you... you...capitalist!

(*although I tend to eat/cook rather unhealthy food... just cos cream and butter DO make food taste better*)

EDIT: Sorry about my posts, I just find this thread so unbelievably retarded, I can't contain myself. "we have bigger fridges!" :D

I have to admit nothing! you... you...capitalist!

(*although I tend to eat/cook rather unhealthy food... just cos cream and butter DO make food taste better*)

Think about it - you want a couple of nice, big baked potatoes (Russets), with plenty of butter and sour cream on top, with some salt and pepper...

goes great with a glass of decent beer...