NationStates Jolt Archive

Here's a question what exactly constitutes a liberal. I've been called this many a time and I am a student of history and it seems the definition changes a lot. I have my own personal definition of a liberal and a conservative but I wish to know how others define it. I am particularly interested in the definition of liberal and conservative outside of the U.S.. also as a side note its very odd because what would consititute a liberal oh say 150 years ago now consititutes a conservative but thats just an observation....


all Hail Zodd lord of the pumpkins...

Liberal = Free

Liberal political ideals should include democracy, freedom of religious expression, freedom of speech and freedom from government interference as much as possible.

As for the definition of Liberal and conservative in Australian politics, the two are interchangeable as the major conservative party is called the Liberal Party.

Liberal = Free

Liberal political ideals should include democracy, freedom of religious expression, freedom of speech and freedom from government interference as much as possible.

Funny, I believe in those things, but I'm a moderate.

Traditionally, a Liberal is someone who believes in and promotes the ideas of Liberalism: life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (or property, depending on who you talk to). Example: John Locke, the American Foundners, etc.

Using that definition, I'm a major liberal. However, according to most of the people I know, I'm a hardcore conservative. It's interesting phenomenon here in America, the conservatives seem more willing the promote liberal ideas than the liberals.

But from my expeirnce what one would define as liberal in the US would be defined as a moderate or even conservative in europe or is that just me?

But from my expeirnce what one would define as liberal in the US would be defined as a moderate or even conservative in europe or is that just me?

I think it really depends on where you're from, and the history of that part of the world. For instance, I think a conservative American (the philosophical version, not the Republican party) would be considered a European liberal (again, philosophically speaking).

In general I think of the two as:
Liberal: Open-minded, willing to change, compassionate.
Conservative: Close-minded, stubborn, blindly religious.
Basically the dictionary definitions are my interpretations of the word. I have no idea how the right has turned "liberal" into an insult, but nowadays, it seems if you're called a liberal, it's usually a put down.

very interesting its kinda of like a reverse situation?

Here's a question what exactly constitutes a liberal. I've been called this many a time and I am a student of history and it seems the definition changes a lot. I have my own personal definition of a liberal and a conservative but I wish to know how others define it. I am particularly interested in the definition of liberal and conservative outside of the U.S.. also as a side note its very odd because what would consititute a liberal oh say 150 years ago now consititutes a conservative but thats just an observation....


all Hail Zodd lord of the pumpkins...
Basically:

1. You admire liberty, freedom and democracy.
2. Your capitalist.

It's that simple.

Conservative, on the other hand, is:

1. You admire liberty, freedom and democracy, as long as it doesn't clash with your religious or moral values. (i.e. there goes a good segment of the population, usually.)
2. Your capitalist.

Then, we have socialism:

1. You admire liberty, freedom and democracy.
2. Your socialist or capital-socialist.

yes yes but do they all hail zodd and enjoy being capatlist... also Aren't socialist the extreme version of liberalism just as a Fascist is the extreme version of conservativism?

From the Newspeak Dictionary (www.newspeakdictionary.com):

Liberal - Used to mean : "Free from narrow prejudice; open minded, especially, open to the reception of new ideas or proposals of reform.". Now means "Full of hatred for past Ideas, and completely intolerant of the people that still believe in them. Socialist." Most liberal arguments basically boil down to "Shut up in the name of open-mindedness and free speech!". The liberal observes evils in society, and then attempts to remedy the problem with an even greater evil.

yes yes but do they all hail zodd and enjoy being capatlist... also Aren't socialist the extreme version of liberalism just as a Fascist is the extreme version of conservativism?

No to the socialism one, kinda yes to the fascism one.

Socialism requires a more collectivist economic system, while Liberalism requires a more Free Market system.

But yea, fascism is basically really strong conservatism, however it tends to ignore economic sides and is more centrist.

When in doubt, read Wiki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

Very illuminating, it explains how today's liberals ideologically shifted from away from "classic liberalism." Today, the ideological conservative is the classic liberal and the today’s liberal is more of a socialist (something it "used" to appose.)

Read the whole thing, it really helps.

yes yes but do they all hail zodd and enjoy being capatlist... also Aren't socialist the extreme version of liberalism just as a Fascist is the extreme version of conservativism?

That's a misconception. Though fascists and conservatives may sometimes share simililar values (such as religious faith), they are hardly the same thing.

Allow me to speak from my experiences here in the States, where us conservatives are often maligned as Nazis by our "tolerant" and "open-minded" liberal friends. Nazis in particular and Fascists in general view themselves as revolutionaries, though obviously not of the communist persuasion.

Writes Jonah Goldberg in the National Review, "Take Hitler, for example. With the obvious exception of the Jews, the segments of society he despised most were those who opposed revolution--traditionalists, monarchists, devout Catholics, the bourgeoisie. The Horst Wessel Lied, the Nazi anthem, identified the "Red Front" and the "reactionaries" as the twin enemies of the Third Reich, and the Nazi understanding of who qualified as a reactionary was almost indistinguishable from the Communists' use of the term."

So you see, Fascist =/= Conservative.

[/rant]

But yea, fascism is basically really strong conservatism, however it tends to ignore economic sides and is more centrist.

Fascism is an economically centrist authoritarian state. At that extreme, just about any authoritarian state beings to look the same.

Okay so socialist are seperate... okay how would I be catorized...
I support all rights, My point of view is that you should be able to do anything as long as you don't invringe upon other's rights.
I believe in an open market system but with some government controls to prevent monopolization.
Nows here's where I difer a little... I believe the government should only provide social services to the worse off(i.e. medical service, unemployment and such, only to the poorest (lowest 20%))

I also believe that every democractic nation should go off and systematically invade every tolotarian gov.... See by bombing them we are freeing them.... SHut Up!

Anyway I think of myself as a moderate but my friends call be a liberal so what am I? Or am I the new messiah, whatever comes first.

Liberal = Free

Liberal political ideals should include democracy, freedom of religious expression, freedom of speech and freedom from government interference as much as possible.

That doesnt mean liberal. What you described was the Republican Party's platform for many years. Conservatives don't hate democracy, freedom of speech, and freedom from government interference.

Liberal thoughts, vary from country to country so obviously there are many types. Even in America there is fiscally liberal, socially liberal, etc...

Okay my basic idea:

Left= Liberal
Right= conservative
middle= Zodd and his followers? or just moderate.

and continuation
socialism/communism= far left
facism= far right
fundmentalism=Zodd oh wait right (then again some fund. were considered liberal for their time?)

I'm telling you, just read Wiki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

what? I am a wiki-holic I read that article last week... I am aware of what it says just trying to get other opinions

Perhaps we should move away from the names which political parties give themselves. In any democratic nation, there need be a degree of ad populum decisions among various parties in order to be elected. Hence, if liberalism is popular at the moment, the party will have liberal somewhere in the name. The converse also holds true. As a result, any definition of what is conservative or liberal based on the decisions of political parties bearing these names are inherently flawed.

For example, in the US, the democrats are considered more liberal than the republicans. However, that only holds true for social policies and not economic ones, given the large representation of trade unions within the democrat hierarchy.

So having filtered out unreliable definitions, what then is a liberal? A liberal perspective is not one which embraces Allan Bloom's cultural relativism, but simply a person who is open to new ideas, before deciding for or against them. To illustrate, a liberal could be against abortion, but what distinguishes him as a liberal is his willingness to listen to the other side and accept abortion's place in society, now that it is here. So the liberal would decide that he was personally against abortion, but would not deny abortion's place in society. To quote Voltaire, "i may not like what you have to say, but i'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Now relax and have a chocolate, it will solve all your problems

Okay my basic idea:

Left= Liberal
Right= conservative
middle= Zodd and his followers? or just moderate.

and continuation
socialism/communism= far left
facism= far right
fundmentalism=Zodd oh wait right (then again some fund. were considered liberal for their time?)
That is the Americanised blue state-red state model, far too simplified.

You are wise beyound your years accept zodd as your god.... anyway good definition... man I love that quote (Use it a lot personally myself)..

Internationally, liberal = centrist. If the major social power of the day is conservative, liberals move to the left to counter it. If the power of the day is leftist, the liberals move to the right to counter that.

I have been told that in the U.S., when they speak of liberal or conservative they are referring mostly to spending habits, which is very confusing to everyone else on Earth since spending habits have virtually nothing to do with it in our view. For example, the Liberal Party of Canada is the fiscally responsible party which has balanced the budget like nine times in a row, people are crying because the liberals DON'T throw money all over the place.

That is the Americanised blue state-red state model, far too simplified.

Thats why I said BASIC idea, I know its a bit more complicated.

But from my expeirnce what one would define as liberal in the US would be defined as a moderate or even conservative in europe or is that just me?

In the US most people believe in freedom from oppression and arbitrary interference in one's life.

The differences come in when you ask people who the major sources of oppression are.

Liberals are usually those who think that large corporations represent a large, and unaccountable, sourse of oppression, They believe that the government's job is to prevent that oppression. They don't tend to care where that government intervention comes from, federal, state or local, just so long as it protects people.

Conservatives tend to think that the Federal government is the primary source of oppression, because it was the Federal government that took away our right to own people, and then took away our right to pretend we own people. Conservatives tend to believe that Individuals and non-government groups such as the Southern Baptists, the Ku Klux Klan, and Walmart ought to resist the efforts of federal government to gain power to impose its will on the people, and that its only duty is to kill people and lock them up in prisons (presumably in the opposite order), either military ones or those owned by private corporations. The purpose of the State and Local governments is to oppose the efforts of the Federal government.

The difference between a Neo-Con and a Conservative is a subtle one. Conservatives believe that the purpose of exhorbitant military and police spending is to protect the people, Neo-Cons believe that it is to exhaust the treasury so that the government will be ill-equipped to do the job that liberals think it ought to do.

QUOTE:
"Perhaps we should move away from the names which political parties give themselves. In any democratic nation, there need be a degree of ad populum decisions among various parties in order to be elected. Hence, if liberalism is popular at the moment, the party will have liberal somewhere in the name. The converse also holds true. As a result, any definition of what is conservative or liberal based on the decisions of political parties bearing these names are inherently flawed.

For example, in the US, the democrats are considered more liberal than the republicans. However, that only holds true for social policies and not economic ones, given the large representation of trade unions within the democrat hierarchy.

So having filtered out unreliable definitions, what then is a liberal? A liberal perspective is not one which embraces Allan Bloom's cultural relativism, but simply a person who is open to new ideas, before deciding for or against them. To illustrate, a liberal could be against abortion, but what distinguishes him as a liberal is his willingness to listen to the other side and accept abortion's place in society, now that it is here. So the liberal would decide that he was personally against abortion, but would not deny abortion's place in society. To quote Voltaire, "i may not like what you have to say, but i'll defend to the death your right to say it."






This quote from Chocolate Fondue was perhaps the best definition I saw so far:

I think things can be made a bit simpler:
The definition of liberal is someone who is for political change and new and untraditional policies. If a liberal is not directly FOR these new policies, the person is at least quite OPEN to them as possibilites. In contrast, a conservative is one who prefers to stick to traditional political politicies and practices. Conservatives, I believe, are generally not very open to new potential political practices or politicies.

This definition would claim that in the the United States Election 2004, John Kerry campaigned as more of a conservative than George W. Bush. True, Bush is definitely an ultraconservative in the social sense, but he's introduced many new political programs! Now, all my friends call me a liberal, and socially I certainly am. I also am strongly opposed to many of Bush's policies. However, I prefer a president who's fiscally conservative: that is NOT Bush. He spends much more than any traditional "big-spender liberal". Therefore, in the financial sense, I think Bush is a liberal

Today, the ideological conservative is the classic liberal

no, not so much. 'conservatives' in unitedstatesian politics come in several flavors (often overlapping). fundamentalist totalitarians, fascists/imperialists, people who think the job of the state is to transfer wealth from poor people to rich people even more efficiently, and the occassional 'libertarian' in denial about the absolute dominance of the previously mentioned flavors. only the last two have any connection at all to liberalism, but they certainly do not have any particular claim as the sole heirs of 'classical liberalism'. its not like liberals were all that homogenous of a group in the first place, other than in a few generalities.