NationStates Jolt Archive

Sometime in WWII Europe. A Soldier was parading about in Joy, declaring that this was was the last war. The "war to end all wars." So to speak. Unfortunatly for him General Patton was somewhere nearby, and he overheard the soldier. In a fit of rage Patton screamed, "MAN IS WAR!!!!!!!!" Implying to the soldier that War will go on for as long as man exists. The reason Im writing this is because, quite frankly, Im tired of hearing people whine about war and making the whole world peace speechs and the like. Eternal peace is impossible! I don't understand why people don't get this, Man has evolved through conflict! Only to reach a point where he can live his life in total peace? No, its too hard coded in the human mind! There may be a few men who have been able to bypass it, but I believe it is damn near impossible for the majority or all of mankind to become like this. Anyway, this is what I've been thinking, please go ahead and post feedback. Debate. Do whatever.

Sometime in WWII Europe. A Soldier was parading about in Joy, declaring that this was was the last war. The "war to end all wars." So to speak. Unfortunatly for him General Patton was somewhere nearby, and he overheard the soldier. In a fit of rage Patton screamed, "MAN IS WAR!!!!!!!!" Implying to the soldier that War will go on for as long as man exists. The reason Im writing this is because, quite frankly, Im tired of hearing people whine about war and making the whole world peace speechs and the like. Eternal peace is impossible! I don't understand why people don't get this, Man has evolved through conflict! Only to reach a point where he can live his life in total peace? No, its too hard coded in the human mind! There may be a few men who have been able to bypass it, but I believe it is damn near impossible for the majority or all of mankind to become like this. Anyway, this is what I've been thinking, please go ahead and post feedback. Debate. Do whatever.

Oh yeah, Im not saying we shouldn't protest unjust wars or strive for peace. Im just saying that peace for rest of our existance is impossible. Ok, NOW post feedback. Debate. Do Whatever.

I have this feeling that most of the people who have read this so far... agree with you.

I have this feeling that most of the people who have read this so far... agree with you.

Good, this thread isn't intended as much for them as it is for the "world peace" people. Theres just TOO MANY dumbasses out there. It pisses me off. :headbang:

Qa'Plah!

I agree with you, and I have made this argument many times before.

As long as there are humans, there will be war. Even after we are gone, some other race will take our place and start the wars all over again...

I believe dreaming of a better world is encoded in the human brain just as much as war is. I know there's never going to be world peace, I would be really dumb to believe that, but that doesn't mean that I can't advocate peaceful confilct solution?
I know that starvation and poverty on this planet isn't ever going to end either, but does that mean I should stop giving to beggars and to charities?

I don't fool myself into believing I can change anything big... I'm content with changing the small things I can and I'll keep fighting against the big things I can't.
Now go ahead and call me stupid and blind...

I believe dreaming of a better world is encoded in the human brain just as much as war is. I know there's never going to be world peace, I would be really dumb to believe that, but that doesn't mean that I can't advocate peaceful confilct solution?
I know that starvation and poverty on this planet isn't ever going to end either, but does that mean I should stop giving to beggars and to charities?

I don't fool myself into believing I can change anything big... I'm content with changing the small things I can and I'll keep fighting against the big things I can't.
Now go ahead and call me stupid and blind...

No, I agree with you. In the bottom of my post I said "Oh yeah, Im not saying we shouldn't protest unjust wars or strive for peace."

It's a poor justification for war. I would say that "rape is eternal", but would that make it ok or justified?

It's a poor justification for war. I would say that "rape is eternal", but would that make it ok or justified?
Reread the first post.

So, who exactly are you looking for?
Somebody to come along and say "I believe humanity has the capacity to do infinite good, with the help of Jesus"?

War is inevitable. Most people have a set of issues that they feel are more important than peace. It may be human rights, or god's will, or racial superiority, or any number of different things, but they would rather fight kill and die to preserve and expand these values than live in peace and let these values die out. In some cases victory is more desirable than peace.

Maybe I was wrong, but I've seen alot of people say shit like "We can have world peace." I don't know though, maybe there aren't people like that on the forum...... if so, woops!

I can accept that man evolved through conflict.

I can accept that conflict is "hard-coded" into our psyche.

But, war is not the only form of conflict. So I can see you make the conclusion that we will never be a totally cooperative race, that we will always have conflicting issues. But why should that come down to war excatly?

I can accept that man evolved through conflict.

I can accept that conflict is "hard-coded" into our psyche.

But, war is not the only form of conflict. So I can see you make the conclusion that we will never be a totally cooperative race, that we will always have conflicting issues. But why should that come down to war excatly?


I'm in agreement here- War is not eternal, but conflict is, perhaps. Just because something seems unchangeable, doesn't mean you can't try. Afterall, what can you lose by trying to achieve peace?

But shorly if man has evolved he no longer needs war.

Afterall, what can you lose by trying to achieve peace?

Bloated military budgets. :D

but that doesn't mean that I can't advocate peaceful confilct solution?

...as long as you don't become an appeaser then that is ok. Whenever advocating a peacefull solution, you should draw a line in the sand and say, "I'll concede/accept this much but anything else then forget it." and from there negotiate until you can get as close to that goal as possible. For peacefull solutions sometimes you do have to make concessions, just make sure that that is not all you are doing.

So I can see you make the conclusion that we will never be a totally cooperative race, that we will always have conflicting issues. But why should that come down to war excatly?

As long as there are two different people on the face of the Earth, we will have conflict and disagreement - and historically this has been reason enough to cause wars.

If two societies exist - yet are at odds with one another they cannot co-exist. Look at the Cold War. The US and the USSR were never in a direct war but the two powers waged war across the globe against one another through indirect means. It was American versus Russian fighters over the skies of Korea. It was American technology versus Russians in Afghanistan.

We may have 1000 years of peace, but ultimately there will be a war. Look at history - we [humanity] have had far more years of war than of peace.

Now, there's something we can argue about. In my eyes, it's at least very doubtful if peace can/should be achieved by war...

Eternal peace is impossible! For those who believe that, sure. But if the majority of nations really work for it, I think global, lasting peace is very well possible. And it will be more likely, with technological advancement that gives more energy/resources for all of us, and this technology isn't kept within only certain countries.

-double post-

It's curious that you say it exactly now that we have reached the historical record for years without war between the western countries (North America + Europe)
it's of course not enough when we look at the rest of the world, but it's still impressing

We may have 1000 years of peace, but ultimately there will be a war. Look at history - we [humanity] have had far more years of war than of peace.

Humanity also had thousands of years of slavery, does that mean we cannot learn and abolish it? I don't think so.
Humanity treated women as second class humans for most their written history. Does that mean it can never change? I doubt it.
Humanity is capable of learning and adapting to new solutions. Democracy, disloving of families/tribes as natural form of society, legal actions and courts rather than self-administered justice, to name but a few.
Human society has been changing for centuries and it will continue. It might need another few centuries, but I think ultimately humans will adapt other conflict solutions and refrain from killing each other... I hope.

It's the type of mindset that believes that war is eternal that makes it impossible for peace to ever exist. That may sound overly optimistic, like if we just believe that world peace is possible, it could happen, but I think it is in some ways true.

Afterall, what can you lose by trying to achieve peace?
You may end up with a poorly armed and equpped, small, poorly trained military that can't protect you when someone who's not all that peacefull decides to attack.

You may end up giving up your culture or way of life in order to prevent an enemy from attacking you.

You may leave innocent people to be butchered, opressed, or terrorized because you don't have the will to fight.

It all depends on how you make peace. Peace must be built on justice and fairness or it's worthless. Justice and fairness must be backed up by credible strength and the willingness to use it.

Humanity also had thousands of years of slavery, does that mean we cannot learn and abolish it? I don't think so.
Humanity treated women as second class humans for most their written history. Does that mean it can never change? I doubt it.

Ttue, we are capable of "progressive" thought and humaniry does learn and go through change, but as long as two different societies exist we cannot rule out war. Two different societies have different goals, ideals, ideology, etc...

Sooner or later something will bring them into conflict, be it religion, territory, resources, economic reasons.

Look at the world today, and the world of the near future (20-50 years from now). Oil is a commodiity becoming more scarce. As China's economy continues to boom, and as third world nations become more developed, their need for the precious resource will increase. However, many predict that oil production has peaked, or will peak within 5-10 years. (An interesting fact is that oil production has decreased every year since 2000). Oil is not dissappearing but the oil we do have becomes harder to get, while demand increases exponentially.

You don't think that conflicts may arise between nations due to this?

Even in the long, long, long term - like 1000 years from now I don't think wars will be eliminated due to that fact that there are too many conflicting interests.

What I do envision is a totally different war. The battlefields of WWII are being replaced more small, local wars - unconventional warfare. I don't know about full scale wars simply due to the fact that in a full out war there wont be any winners, just irradiated wasteland.

That's why I do not believe in the notion that "eventually" there will be no wars.

I have been trying to get this across for years. The bliss ninnies are too thick headed to even wrap their mind around the simplest fact of humanity. I still can't fathom how the hell people can so cling to an utterly hopeless cause with so much... hope, idiotic misplaced hope. :rolleyes:

Both war and peace will exist as long as humanity lives. NOTHING will change that, not denial, not blind hope, and not faith.

Each thing (and thought) evolves at a time. Just observe the history. Unhappy it's not fast. People at Midle Age couldn't expect a institution named United Nations. We know it doesn't work well, yet. Before war banishment, other things need be better. I don't know how many centuries. 2, 3, 5? It's not much time if you consider at least 5.000 years of civilisation. Put your eyes at the desk surface. A pencil will block your vision. You only know that there is something beyond if you rise the eyes and see the whole surface. It's the same thing: our tendency is to analyse from our actual moment and age (let's consider a maximum of 90 years).
SEAMAR

Exactly, man evolves. It will come a point in time when humanity evolves to the point where conflict is no longer necessary.

I'm not saying it will happen anytime soon however...

There will always be war as long as there is greed and greed is part of human nature. EVERYONE has greed.

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

Dream On, John, Dream on...

It's always good to have something to aspire to, war isn't it.

Sometime in lab. A Scientist was parading about in Joy, declaring that this was the cure to illness. The "cure to end all disease." So to speak. Unfortunatly for him another scientist was somewhere nearby, and he overheard the scientist. In a fit of rage he screamed, "MAN IS SICK!!!!!!!!" Implying to the scientist that illness will go on for as long as man exists. The reason Im writing this is because, quite frankly, Im tired of hearing people whine about Illness and making the whole world without disease speechs and the like. Eternal health is impossible! I don't understand why people don't get this, Man has evolved through illness! Only to reach a point where he can live his life in total health? No, its too hard coded in the human mind! There may be a few men who have been able to bypass it, but I believe it is damn near impossible for the majority or all of mankind to become like this. Anyway, this is what I've been thinking, please go ahead and post feedback. Debate. Do whatever.
I'm sure there was a point to this... :D



Anyway it might be impossible to have world peace but I'm sure as hell not going to accept war!
Plus it might not be impossible.
here's an interesting thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory

You may end up with a poorly armed and equpped, small, poorly trained military that can't protect you when someone who's not all that peacefull decides to attack.

You may end up giving up your culture or way of life in order to prevent an enemy from attacking you.

You may leave innocent people to be butchered, opressed, or terrorized because you don't have the will to fight.

It all depends on how you make peace. Peace must be built on justice and fairness or it's worthless. Justice and fairness must be backed up by credible strength and the willingness to use it.

*CLAPS* Agreed.

I'm sure there was a point to this... :D



Anyway it might be impossible to have world peace but I'm sure as hell not going to accept war!
Plus it might not be impossible.
here's an interesting thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory

lol that was funny.

I think there was a german mathematician who figured out that from the first human to today, there have been a total of 8 minutes of world peace.

you double posted this thread. I've asked a mod to merge them (hope that ok).

here's an interesting thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory

People at Midle Age couldn't expect a institution named United Nations.

Actually they did... immediately after the fall of Rome, many people in Europe looked for a power to fill the power vacuum and unite Europe again. The Holy Roman Empire and the Carolingian Empire were two attempts at this - that obviously failed at their goals.

here's an interesting thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory

There isn't much evidence for this theory simply because, as the article states democracies have not been around long enough to actually see things play out.

Plus, there is a factor to this that is overlooked. Democracies, especially after WWII, formed Alliances (NATO and the US) to protect themselves from their polar opposites (Warsaw Pact and the USSR).

Before WWII, France and Germany were democracies and they united against an ever growing Germany. The US remained fairly isolationist.

Meh... so far I have seen insults, speculation, and weak historical precedent.

Not a single poster has shown me why conflict must eventually evolve into violence.

Humans will always make war. It's part of our nature. It's the same with our desire for food. It can't be controlled. That's why when I get hungry on the bus, I just bite chunks out of the person sitting next to me. It's part of human nature. We have no ability to control ourselves and I wish those whining peacenik hippies would realize that.

To the Peoples of the World:

1
The Great Peace towards which people of good will throughout the centuries have inclined their hearts, of which seers and poets for countless generations have expressed their vision, and for which from age to age the sacred scriptures of mankind have constantly held the promise, is now at long last within the reach of the nations. For the first time in history it is possible for everyone to view the entire planet, with all its myriad diversified peoples, in one perspective. World peace is not only possible but inevitable. It is the next stage in the evolution of this planet -- in the words of one great thinker, "the planetization of mankind".

2
Whether peace is to be reached only after unimaginable horrors precipitated by humanity's stubborn clinging to old patterns of behaviour, or is to be embraced now by an act of consultative will, is the choice before all who inhabit the earth. At this critical juncture when the intractable problems confronting nations have been fused into one common concern for the whole world, failure to stem the tide of conflict and disorder would be unconscionably irresponsible.

3
Among the favourable signs are the steadily growing strength of the steps towards world order taken initially near the beginning of this century in the creation of the League of Nations, succeeded by the more broadly based United Nations Organization; the achievement since the Second World War of independence by the majority of all the nations on earth, indicating the completion of the process of nation building, and the involvement of these fledgling nations with older ones in matters of mutual concern; the consequent vast increase in cooperation among hitherto isolated and antagonistic peoples and groups in international undertakings in the scientific, educational, legal, economic and cultural fields; the rise in recent decades of an unprecedented number of international humanitarian organizations; the spread of women's and youth movements calling for an end to war; and the spontaneous spawning of widening networks of ordinary people seeking understanding through personal communication.

4
The scientific and technological advances occurring in this unusually blessed century portend a great surge forward in the social evolution of the planet, and indicate the means by which the practical problems of humanity may be solved. They provide, indeed, the very means for the administration of the complex life of a united world. Yet barriers persist. Doubts, misconceptions, prejudices, suspicions and narrow self-interest beset nations and peoples in their relations one to another.

5
It is out of a deep sense of spiritual and moral duty that we are impelled at this opportune moment to invite your attention to the penetrating insights first communicated to the rulers of mankind more than a century ago by Bahá'u'lláh, Founder of the Bahá'í Faith, of which we are the Trustees.

6
"The winds of despair", Bahá'u'lláh wrote, "are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective." This prophetic judgement has been amply confirmed by the common experience of humanity. Flaws in the prevailing order are conspicuous in the inability of sovereign states organized as United Nations to exorcize the spectre of war, the threatened collapse of the international economic order, the spread of anarchy and terrorism, and the intense suffering which these and other afflictions are causing to increasing millions. Indeed, so much have aggression and conflict come to characterize our social, economic and religious systems, that many have succumbed to the view that such behaviour is intrinsic to human nature and therefore ineradicable.

(The Universal House of Justice, 1985 Oct, The Promise of World Peace, p. 1)

Humans will always make war. It's part of our nature. It's the same with our desire for food. It can't be controlled. That's why when I get hungry on the bus, I just bite chunks out of the person sitting next to me. It's part of human nature. We have no ability to control ourselves and I wish those whining peacenik hippies would realize that.

Peace is as much a part of our "nature" as is war. Peace will come, step by step, inch by inch, mile by mile, meter by meter.

Like it or not, human's need (not want need mind you) for conflict, like it or not is a defense mechanism. Now i am not gonna get all freaking nutty with conspiracies or anything, but think of it as our species way of keeping ourselves on top. If you are a family guy fan, seen the episode da boom, you will see a comic, yet very valid arguement, about the implementation of total peace in society. Certain things on our planet, hell even universe, more than likely dont give a rats ass about the human condition or that peace is a good thing. They will come in with no mercy, killing until we are gone, because like it or not we are a competitor for this world. Whether it be from "aliens" or our own native species, we are in constant struggle to make our stock hardier and more resilient for the times ahead.

That being said, peacenicks need to remove their heads from their holes in the ground and start thinking about the last world conflict that was resolved 100% thru peaceful conflict. Yea keep thinking cause it will be a while

Peace is for weak! The true face of men is demonstrated by war, war purifies us, redeems us, binds us....

Brotherhood, loyalty, physical enhancement and other virtues are brought by war, when the first bullet whiz past your head you discover yourself and fight for survival and for the men you have at your side, war also takes us from our ordinary lives and allow us to discover the true human nature

That being said, peacenicks need to remove their heads from their holes in the ground and start thinking about the last world conflict that was resolved 100% thru peaceful conflict. Yea keep thinking cause it will be a while

What the hell is 'peaceful conflict'?

Brotherhood, loyalty, physical enhancement and other virtues are brought by war, when the first bullet whiz past your head you discover yourself and fight for survival and for the men you have at your side, war also takes us from our ordinary lives and allow us to discover the true human nature

We'll make a thunderdome for you to play in and discover your true human nature. Personally I'm rather fond of my false human nature which doesn't require my pissing arterial blood in the dirt, sepitcemia, dead babies from collatoral damage, etc., and which gives me the chance to live to eighty or more years and play with my gradchildren and so on. But don't worry. If you can manage to crawl to the thunderdome exit, we'll have paramedics standing by.