NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4607435.stm

this article shows what witchcraft is really about in many parts of the world today. This girl definitely is no singular case (though she hopefully is in Britain)

Witchcraft is nothing but superstition that gives people an excuse for all forms of violent abuse against others, mostly weaker members of society. In our western culture, it has become fashionable in recent years. Some people are making a lot of money by selling books which decribe potions, spells and jinxes to gullible buyers who revel in the mysterious and paranormal.
That's not what witchcraft has ever been about, even though our nostalgic age just loves to believe it. It's superstition, and, sadly, it can still harm people.

Um...I think the article was less about the evils of witchcraft and more about the evils of child abuse.

The people who did this to the girl were Africans; African people often have out-dated superstitions because of lack of education and knowledge.

I think the people who come from those countries need more education about the fact that witchcraft can not "still harm people", simply because it is not real.

Huh? The article said the girl was beaten because she was accused of being a witch, not people practicing witchcraft beat the girl. I either misread your post our you misread the article.

Um...I think the article was less about the evils of witchcraft and more about the evils of child abuse.

The people who did this to the girl were Africans; African people often have out-dated superstitions because of lack of education and knowledge.

I think the people who come from those countries need more education about the fact that witchcraft can not "still harm people", simply because it is not real.

You will find that believes like that don't occur exclusively in Africa, although you are right in saying that the reason is lack o education. In most 3rd world countries, witchcraft is believed to be a reality, and people suffer because of it.
No matter how romantically you try to paint the picture today, no society ever saw witchcraft as something positive, and "witches" are abused and killed all around the globe to this day.

Huh? The article said the girl was beaten because she was accused of being a witch, not people practicing witchcraft beat the girl. I either misread your post our you misread the article.

What I was trying to say is that the traditional believe in witchcraft is harmful, and the nostalgic modern-day version is a sarcastic mockery.

That's not what witchcraft has ever been about, even though our nostalgic age just loves to believe it. It's superstition, and, sadly, it can still harm people.
Um, it isn't witchcraft that harmed the child, but her aunt.

That's not what witchcraft has ever been about, even though our nostalgic age just loves to believe it. It's superstition, and, sadly, it can still harm people.
Um, it isn't witchcraft that harmed the child, but her aunt.

Doubly sad when it's an auntie.

What I was trying to say is that the traditional believe in witchcraft is harmful, and the nostalgic modern-day version is a sarcastic mockery.
Perhaps what you should be discussing is how relatively innocuous practices, such as administering herbal remedies, and 'reading' weather (you know, by looking for the signs any farmer can see) were often good enough to get you burned at the stake. 'Witchcraft' was a convenient excuse to scapegoat (mostly elderly women) and 'burn off a little energy' at the same time. In fact, the whole idea of witchcraft is rather more a Christian creation than a reality.

Animism is something completely different...and many of the old African religions were animistic.

I want to first say that what happened here was truly evil. No one should ever treat a child in that manner, and yes, the child was a scapegoat. That said:

Witchcraft is not merely a superstition. It is a dangerous reality in our world. Those who have posted here have obviously not had experiences with supernatural powers. Things that make your spirit shake and your hair stand on end, because you know there is evil around. Don't simply dismiss the danger. There is truly an evil of witchcraft.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4607435.stm

this article shows what witchcraft is really about in many parts of the world today. This girl definitely is no singular case (though she hopefully is in Britain)

Witchcraft is nothing but superstition that gives people an excuse for all forms of violent abuse against others, mostly weaker members of society. In our western culture, it has become fashionable in recent years. Some people are making a lot of money by selling books which decribe potions, spells and jinxes to gullible buyers who revel in the mysterious and paranormal.
That's not what witchcraft has ever been about, even though our nostalgic age just loves to believe it. It's superstition, and, sadly, it can still harm people.
Did you even read the article?

Um, it isn't witchcraft that harmed the child, but her aunt.

Doubly sad when it's an auntie.

Witchcraft doesn't exist. It was the aunt's BELIEVE in witchcraft that led to those events

Witchcraft is not merely a superstition. It is a dangerous reality in our world. Those who have posted here have obviously not had experiences with supernatural powers. Things that make your spirit shake and your hair stand on end, because you know there is evil around. Don't simply dismiss the danger. There is truly an evil of witchcraft.
Uh-huh. And witchcraft CREATES these 'supernatural' powers of which you speak? Hmmm...were these things to actually exist, I rather suspect they would do so independent of any sort of religious practices centered around them...

Witchcraft is not merely a superstition. It is a dangerous reality in our world. Those who have posted here have obviously not had experiences with supernatural powers. Things that make your spirit shake and your hair stand on end, because you know there is evil around. Don't simply dismiss the danger. There is truly an evil of witchcraft.
That's an excellent demonstration of superstition. Thanks. :)

Witchcraft doesn't exist. It was the aunt's BELIEVE in witchcraft that led to those events
And the aunt obviously isn't a witch to begin with, she's probably christian, judging by what she infliced on the girl. If anything, in this instance, christianity is more dangerous than witchcraft.

Witchcraft doesn't exist. It was the aunt's BELIEVE in witchcraft that led to those events
Then it has nothing to do with witchcraft. Your blaming witchcraft for what the aunt did is misplaced. Fear was the cause of her behaviour, not witchcraft.

Perhaps what you should be discussing is how relatively innocuous practices, such as administering herbal remedies, and 'reading' weather (you know, by looking for the signs any farmer can see) were often good enough to get you burned at the stake. 'Witchcraft' was a convenient excuse to scapegoat (mostly elderly women) and 'burn off a little energy' at the same time. In fact, the whole idea of witchcraft is rather more a Christian creation than a reality.

Animism is something completely different...and many of the old African religions were animistic.

You will find that the idea of witchcraft is a lot older than christianity. There are Roman texts refering to witches, witches are mentioned in the Old Testament. But these believes are not limited to Europe. Asian cultures believe in witches just as African cultures do.

I wasn't saying that the child was harmed through witchcraft, but through the aunts believe in it. Believing in it is obviously more harmful to others than practising it.

Witchcraft doesn't exist. It was the aunt's BELIEVE in witchcraft that led to those events
Hmmm...well, people who believe in witchcraft aren't the only strange ones:
Treating mental illness with 'exorcism'

http://society.guardian.co.uk/mentalhealth/story/0,8150,536719,00.html

The Rev Stephen Parsons, author of Ungodly Fear: Fundamentalist Christianity and the abuse of power, said: "The charismatic movement wants to demonise mental illness so they can deal with it through exorcism. They say the Lord has given them a special insight that science and medicine cannot offer. But persuading vulnerable people that they are possessed gives you a great deal of power over them. It's a form of emotional abuse."

Mr Parsons said sexual abuse, homosexuality and unwanted pregnancy were often seen as routes for demonic possession. "Imagine telling someone who has been raped they're now possessed - that is terribly abusive."

Witchcraft is not merely a superstition. It is a dangerous reality in our world...There is truly an evil of witchcraft.

How can anyone who is a product of modern society believe in that tripe? :confused:

Witchcraft. Is. Fake. Not. Real.

Uh-huh. And witchcraft CREATES these 'supernatural' powers of which you speak? Hmmm...were these things to actually exist, I rather suspect they would do so independent of any sort of religious practices centered around them...

I never said witchcraft "creates" the supernatural powers, just that it uses them.

That's an excellent demonstration of superstition. Thanks.
And no, this is not superstition. When you've had an experience with evil, then you'll know what I mean. Until then, all you'll do is scoff and claim I'm nuts. That's fine. I know what the truth is, and I don't need you to define it for me.

Then it has nothing to do with witchcraft. Your blaming witchcraft for what the aunt did is misplaced. Fear was the cause of her behaviour, not witchcraft.

Witchcraft doesn't exist. What exists is people's believe in it, and that was what harmed the child.

Believing in it is obviously more harmful to others than practising it.


So the people who "practice" (in my opinion, there is nothing to practice seeing as how it does not exist) it should not believe in it?

You're making no sense.

Things that make your spirit shake and your hair stand on end, because you know there is evil around.

Aw, c'mon, we all have a bad-hair day now and then. That's no reason to believe in witches.

Witchcraft doesn't exist. What exists is people's believe in it, and that was what harmed the child.
Yes, but you can't hold witchcraft responsible for what people believe. :headbang:

So the people who "practice" (in my opinion, there is nothing to practice seeing as how it does not exist) it should not believe in it?

You're making no sense.

Let me rephrase that : Believing somebody else is a witch causes more harm than believing oneself to be a witch. Better?

And for the love of all things holy...it's BELIEF, noun, not BELIEVE, verb. :headbang:

Yes, but you can't hold witchcraft responsible for what people believe. :headbang:

How can I hold something responsible that doesn't exist?

Let me rephrase that : Believing somebody else is a witch causes more harm than believing oneself to be a witch. Better?
Then this is not an issue about witchcraft being bad, it is an issue of non-witches believing that witchcraft is bad. A comparison for you: I think people who eat cheddar cheese are evil, demonic people who must be burned at the stake. Who is the evil person here...me...or the people who eat cheddar cheese?

And for the love of all things holy...it's BELIEF, noun, not BELIEVE, verb. :headbang:

Apologies... I'm not a native speaker, I didn't know that. Thanks.

Then this is not an issue about witchcraft being bad, it is an issue of non-witches believing that witchcraft is bad.

I never once said witchcraft was bad, I said the belief in it is dangerous and harmful. I said witchcraft doesn't exist but believing in it causes people to harm others.

Out of curiosity, how do you define witchcraft? What is it that you are claiming that doesn't exist? (Just so we're talking about the same thing.)

I never once said witchcraft was bad, I said the belief in it is dangerous and harmful. I said witchcraft doesn't exist but believing in it causes people to harm others.
But you did say, "this article shows what witchcraft is really about in many parts of the world today." It doesn't, actually. It shows a girl being victimized by a family member.

Out of curiosity, how do you define witchcraft? What is it that you are claiming that doesn't exist? (Just so we're talking about the same thing.)

Supernatural powers. The powers to inflict harm on others without touching them, or heal others, the powers to influence fate in any way, the power to predict the future from tealeaves, effectively cursing people, commanding of demons, lovepotions, shape changing, flying on broomsticks....
I can't really give a clear definition as the it is one of the largest field of superstition, but I hope you understand.

But you did say, "this article shows what witchcraft is really about in many parts of the world today." It doesn't, actually. It shows a girl being victimized by a family member.

Many cultures today believe that witchcraft exists. Very much the same way that Europeans and Americans believed witchcraft exists in the 16th-18th century. "Witches exist, they mean us harm, we must kill them to protect ourselves"
There were and are very very few people, especially in societies who believe in witches, who actually consider themselves to be witches or to practise witchcraft. Therefore, in those societies, witchcraft is mainly about hurting and killing people who are believed to be witches.

I understand two basic things in relation to this thread.

1. Child abuse: I have one word. Don't.

2. Witchcraft: Doesn't exist. I've never seen it at work, and most likely never will. As far as I know it was a scary childhood tale my mother fed me to keep me in bed at night. ;)

Supernatural powers. The powers to inflict harm on others without touching them, or heal others, the powers to influence fate in any way, the power to predict the future from tealeaves, effectively cursing people, commanding of demons, lovepotions, shape changing, flying on broomsticks....
I can't really give a clear definition as the it is one of the largest field of superstition, but I hope you understand.
You are absolutely right, then. Those things don't exist.

Of course, that's not what witchcraft is, and we've no evidence that that's what the aunt believed in.

You are absolutely right, then. Those things don't exist.

Of course, that's not what witchcraft is, and we've no evidence that that's what the aunt believed in.

There's a little further information on that here, though it's still not too detailed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4545109.stm

So, if this is not witchcraft, what is, in your opinion?

There's a little further information on that here, though it's still not too detailed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4545109.stm

So, if this is not witchcraft, what is, in your opinion?
It's abuse. The women doing these deeds were not practicing witchcraft. Whatever they believed this girl had done to deserve her treatment matters not. They were abusive, period.

The trial was told by Dr Richard Hoskins, an expert in African studies, that belief in witchcraft - known as ndoki in the Lingala language - was not uncommon among some African communities.

But Dr Hoskins stressed witchcraft believers would never condone physically harming a child, even one they thought was possessed by an evil spirit.

Ms X, Kisanga and Pinto worshipped at Protestant churches in Dalston and Neasden which catered for people from Angola and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

These women were Protestants. They were not practicing witchcraft. Their belief in witchcraft is based in ignorance. Like my hatred of people who eat cheddar cheese.

Like my hatred of people who eat cheddar cheese.

*quickly hides wedge of Cheddar*

>.>

It's abuse. The women doing these deeds were not practicing witchcraft. Whatever they believed this girl had done to deserve her treatment matters not. They were abusive, period.

They were not practising witchcraft. Nobody ever said they were. But they believed the child was practising witchcraft and abused her far that reason.
If they didn't believe they child to be a witch, they wouldn't have tortured in that way. I doubt they would have treated her very nice either, but they wouldn't have gone to those extremes.
Yes, the reason these people believe in witches is due to a massive lack of education, but the fact remains that they do believe in witches. And they believe that they have to take action if they recognise somebody as a witch, they believe it is their duty to physically hurt this person, if not kill her straight away.
The fact that they believe in witchcraft makes them dangerous.

Edit :
Nobody ever said that they were practising witxhcraft. They weren't, it doesn't exist. Please stop repeating that.

Edit :
Nobody ever said that they were practising witxhcraft. They weren't, it doesn't exist. Please stop repeating that.
Then I completely fail to see what you are trying to say. Your title is "THAT is witchcraft to me", yet it is in fact NOT witchcraft. What exactly is your point?

Edit: I think we may just be having a language problem here. Your original post can be read one way, but I don't think you meant it that way. *shrugs* No tenemos que pelear...

Then I completely fail to see what you are trying to say. Your title is "THAT is witchcraft to me", yet it is in fact NOT witchcraft. What exactly is your point?

Edit: I think we may just be having a language problem here. Your original post can be read one way, but I don't think you meant it that way. *shrugs* No tenemos que pelear...

Do you remember the thread "What is witchcraft to you?" a while back?
Well, this is a perfect example of what witchcraft is to me. I don't believe it exists. But because other people believe it exists, artrocities like the one in the article are comitted. Wichtcraft as in "witches" doesn't exist, witchcraft as in "this person is a witch" does. I take witchcraft to mean "believing in witchcraft", as it is nothing that can be proven, it is supernatural, some people will also take it to be a religion.
If I said "This is Islam to me" and pointed at the Saudi Arabian law against women drivers, I'm not talking about the life of Mohamed, but on the effects it has today. That's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about witchcraft, it's effect on people.
To me, witchcraft as a superstition means cruelty and aggresion towards weaker people in 3rd world societies, it means 900 people killed in my home town in the early 17th century, it means the effects the belief has on people.

Do you remember the thread "What is witchcraft to you?" a while back?
Well, this is a perfect example of what witchcraft is to me. I don't believe it exists. But because other people believe it exists, artrocities like the one in the article are comitted. Wichtcraft as in "witches" doesn't exist, witchcraft as in "this person is a witch" does. I take witchcraft to mean "believing in witchcraft", as it is nothing that can be proven, it is supernatural, some people will also take it to be a religion.
If I said "This is Islam to me" and pointed at the Saudi Arabian law against women drivers, I'm not talking about the life of Mohamed, but on the effects it has today. That's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about witchcraft, it's effect on people.
To me, witchcraft as a superstition means cruelty and aggresion towards weaker people in 3rd world societies, it means 900 people killed in my home town in the early 17th century, it means the effects the belief has on people.
Ah. Clearer now:). You're talking about attitudes surrounding it rather than it itself.

Ah. Clearer now:). You're talking about attitudes surrounding it rather than it itself.

Actually, it took me by surprise that so many people seem to assume it exists. I think that's where the problem was...

Do you remember the thread "What is witchcraft to you?" a while back?
Well, this is a perfect example of what witchcraft is to me. I don't believe it exists. But because other people believe it exists, artrocities like the one in the article are comitted. Wichtcraft as in "witches" doesn't exist, witchcraft as in "this person is a witch" does. I take witchcraft to mean "believing in witchcraft", as it is nothing that can be proven, it is supernatural, some people will also take it to be a religion.
If I said "This is Islam to me" and pointed at the Saudi Arabian law against women drivers, I'm not talking about the life of Mohamed, but on the effects it has today. That's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about witchcraft, it's effect on people.
To me, witchcraft as a superstition means cruelty and aggresion towards weaker people in 3rd world societies, it means 900 people killed in my home town in the early 17th century, it means the effects the belief has on people.
Well explained. Your original post was implicitly condemning witchcraft itself, though.

Do you know what "supernatural" actually is? It is things that are "above nature" or not a part of the physical world. Your mind, for instance, is supernatural. The things produced by man we call "artificial", because they do not appear in nature. They are "man-made", from the mind of man. Man is above nature.

The soul is supernatural, too. Some people believe it is a thing that can separate from the body and become a ghost; others believe it is integral and god-given. In ndoki (http://www.care1.org/articles/a21_ndoki.htm), the "witchcraft" mentioned in the article, they believe the soul has a "dark side" (not unlike the Force) that can come to the fore without the person's conscious knowledge and do bad things. There could be some basis for it in psychology, but I'm not versed in that field.

My own ideas of what witchcraft is are founded in the mythologies of the pre-Bronze Age Mesopotamean goddess religions, and probably don't reflect anything practiced today in Wicca.