NationStates Jolt Archive

Sure he can, and he does. I will not presume to know why sometimes he kills and sometimes he doesn't although I have my theories.
That’s fine … my theories would be he A) does not exist B) is not an all loving being C) does not interact with humans at all

To me his reported actions are not consistent (old and new testament) and not consistent with what I would conceder someone who deserves to be worshiped

Its fine if you do but I have no faith in god ( and I am fine with that because again an all loving god would realize the best I could do would be to go through the motions) and also realize that my past predisposes me to not trust organized religions at all (well the organization part)

That’s fine … my theories would be he A) does not exist B) is not an all loving being C) does not interact with humans at all

To me his reported actions are not consistent (old and new testament) and not consistent with what I would conceder someone who deserves to be worshiped

Its fine if you do but I have no faith in god ( and I am fine with that because again an all loving god would realize the best I could do would be to go through the motions) and also realize that my past predisposes me to not trust organized religions at all (well the organization part)

Have you inquired of the Lord as to his existence and motivations?

Do you understand all his motives, thoughts, and plans?

It does not matter if you believe in him, he believes in you. His existence is not predicated upon our believing in him, but our advancement IS predicated on our believing in him. His actions make sense if you know all the facts. Neither you nor I do. Neither you nor I comprehend all the laws of the universe, physical, spiritual, and other, that govern the interaction of intelligence with deity and matter. I wish you well. I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas.

But how did everything start if there was no divine intervention, explain if you will how nature created everything out of nothing?
If your counter arguement involves nature creating everything from atoms, then who created the atoms?
What created the natural forces too.

Let me turn that around for you. If your god created everything, who created him?

The idea behind religion is to get people NOT to burn in hell.

That's only the idea of religions that HAVE a hell.

Have you inquired of the Lord as to his existence and motivations?

Do you understand all his motives, thoughts, and plans?

It does not matter if you believe in him, he believes in you. His existence is not predicated upon our believing in him, but our advancement IS predicated on our believing in him. His actions make sense if you know all the facts. Neither you nor I do. Neither you nor I comprehend all the laws of the universe, physical, spiritual, and other, that govern the interaction of intelligence with deity and matter. I wish you well. I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas.

Replace every reference to "the Lord" with "Eris" and "him" and "his" with "her" and your statements will be as meaningless to you as they are to me.

Let me turn that around for you. If your god created everything, who created him?

Well technically the answer to this question would be that God wasn't created, He has always been, and He will always be. That concept is a hard thing to grasp for many people though, myself included.

I personally think it's because human life is limited by it's beginning(birth) and it's end(death), we can't conceive of the idea that something didn't have a beginning, because everything we know does; even Life and the Universe.

The short answer would be "God created himself" which would be like me saying "I gave birth to myself", so I hate saying that.

Its fine if you do but I have no faith in god ( and I am fine with that because again an all loving god would realize the best I could do would be to go through the motions) and also realize that my past predisposes me to not trust organized religions at all (well the organization part)

I can understand this distrust. I have multiple problems with organized religion, and even when I am *forced* to attend Church services, I don't really participate.

One of the biggest problems are that organized religion standardizes what should be based on personal experience. Something like Sunday School (in my experience) just reinforces the same ideas over and over, which can become indoctrinization;that is covered in another thread.

Another is that, eventually, an organized religion ceases to exist for the people it was intended, and it's goals move toward keeping the religion alive for it's own sake.

I believe that humanity should be able to outgrow religion itself; the religion becoming too obsolete to help with a person's spiritual growth. Religion, in my opinion, is a crutch. A necessary crutch...up to a point. Eventually you have to rely on your own "legs" to reach the goal. The ultimate goal of religion is spiritual enlightenment, whether this be in the form of Heaven, Nirvana, the ether, it's just whatever your beliefs entail.

After a certain point, religion becomes a hindrance to the goal it is trying to achieve.

I can understand this distrust. I have multiple problems with organized religion, and even when I am *forced* to attend Church services, I don't really participate.

One of the biggest problems are that organized religion standardizes what should be based on personal experience. Something like Sunday School (in my experience) just reinforces the same ideas over and over, which can become indoctrinization;that is covered in another thread.

Another is that, eventually, an organized religion ceases to exist for the people it was intended, and it's goals move toward keeping the religion alive for it's own sake.

I believe that humanity should be able to outgrow religion itself; the religion becoming too obsolete to help with a person's spiritual growth. Religion, in my opinion, is a crutch. A necessary crutch...up to a point. Eventually you have to rely on your own "legs" to reach the goal. The ultimate goal of religion is spiritual enlightenment, whether this be in the form of Heaven, Nirvana, the ether, it's just whatever your beliefs entail.

After a certain point, religion becomes a hindrance to the goal it is trying to achieve.


You know who you sound like … depublicants lol … I get along with her viewpoint as well :)

I think that if it came down to it, I'd much rather have people find their own way to God without the Church than try to tie the church to God.

The road to salvation/enlightment/oneness/whatever you believe has NEVER been vested in a building where you give away your money to someone else. Organized religion can do a lot of good. It can, and it HAS, also done a lot of evil.

Although I preach professionally, you won't ever see me quoting the Holy Scripture. It tends to piss people off whenever you start saying that your proof is a book they don't belive in. And I can certainly understand that.

The problem is, of course, when some people feel they should be allowed to say whatever outrageous thing THEY belive about religion and the beliefs of religous people without being told they're being offensive, but are the first ones to say they don't like having things 'shoved down their throat' when they are told what WE belive.

As for the long question filled post by Barbigil:

1. Telling people they're going to Hell certainly is pointless. However, all Southern Baptists are required to inform someone of that at least once a day. I wish I was joking, but I've caught myself doing it and I'm trying to change it. That being said...that is said so that homosexuals can get the gulf that they are trying to bridge in making us 'accept' them. It cannot happen.

2. There shouldn't be any confusion about the Old Testament. Specifically, it works like this. No one bothers with the Ten Commandments. No one bothers with the ritual forms, or the ritual foods, or the ritual cleanings and purifications. The Old Testament is there as a reference, and as a marker, and as a way to illustrate things that are important, but I don't think you can 'pick and choose' things out of it without accepting all of it as binding on you, something that clearly isn't the case.

That being said....there were admonishments against immorality and the like in the New Testament too, by several of the apostles.

3. I don't think I look down on people who don't share my views on religion. I do , however, look down on anyone who claims I'm an idiot because I believe in God and Jesus. I look down on ANYONE who feels like they are superior to me because of the emptiness of their life.

If an athiest feels differently than me about God and says "God doesn't exist" and this is his firm belief, that is his opinion, and he's welcome to it, and I haven't a problem with that. When he tells me I'm a fool or an idiot for beliving in a 'fairy-tale' , then he's attacking me, and while I will certainly turn the other cheek when slapped, I only have two cheeks. There is only so much hate and insolence that will be tolerated.

This applies only tangentally to the debate at hand, but there are certainly athiest homosexuals behind the 'natural' argument who claim if it weren't for 'bigoted fools' who are religous that homosexuality wouldn't be so 'unacceptible'. Neither would slavery, prostitution, Communism, or genocide.


4. I've never forced my views on anyone who hasn't tried to first force their views on me. I've probably spent more time exposed to and dealing with a wide variety of faiths than most Southern Baptists, and thus I think it's fair to say that at least 8 times out of 10, what usually happens is someone will attack the believer's faith, and then act wounded when he draws an irate response. You shall reap what you have sown.

5. Taking the Bible at literal face value, I agree, is not totally wise. I am a believer in the idea that God was trying to communicate complex concepts to primitive men who recorded what they saw as best as they could, mixing it in with what they saw fit. Using the Bible alone as the basis for attacking homosexual behavior is indeed not the 'best' way to handle things.

And yet, I consider. I consider what it achieves. I consider the cost, in terms of HIV, of the loose culture, of the devastation it causes to families, of the pain and suffering on all sides of the issue, and I can't help but wonder if maybe there is a reason that the injunction about homosexuality was in the Bible for a reason. It doesn't matter if you take it literally or just as food for thought. Just because the Bible says something is wrong and some people dislike the Bible is no reason to say that it's 'right'.

6. Is it natural? Is it what God intended?

I don't know. God never said he would be 'fair'. Certainly, everyone has issues to deal with. There are mentally ill people. People with compulsions to lie or steal. People who are just born in such cruel environments that they grow up hateful and CAN'T love their neighbor. Life ain't measured by your money, or your bling-bling, or what kind of mate you have, but how well and WHY you overcame the problems and issues in your life.

I'm fully aware that if you're a homosexual that you probably wonder 'How dare someone else tell me I can't live the way I was born."

I'm not saying that at all, and I don't think anyone else should be either. But you don't HAVE to. And most of all, if you do DECIDE that you are going to live that way, rather than choose celibacy, then please don't expect us to throw away OUR beliefs to placate you if you won't change your ways to placate us.

Note I did not mention any nonsense about homosexuals being 'normal'. I don't think they have a choice in what their bodies desire...only on whether or not they choose to act on it.

Most importantly, it is very, very easy to say that no one has a right to condemn another.

CONDEMN : k&n-'dem
1 : to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation
2 a : to pronounce guilty : CONVICT b : SENTENCE, DOOM
3 : to adjudge unfit for use or consumption

I think what we all need to realize is that we all condemn people each day. That's not the argument at hand here, or it shouldn't be. The whole reason people are up in arms over homosexuals is that they demand to be accepted for what and who they are and what they do, and to be told that it's okay.

To say that I have no right to condemn a PERSON is true. To say that I cannot condemn what they DO is to say we cannot say Saddam was evil and needed to be destroyed, or that slavery or prostitution or bigamy or polyandry is unfair. It's to say we can't make value judgements based on our beliefs but must instead adhere to some stiflingly politically correct system.

There's a backlash building.

The whole reason people are up in arms over homosexuals is that they demand to be accepted for what and who they are and what they do, and to be told that it's okay.

I thought people were up in arms because homosexuals demand to be treated equal, but many of us so-called Christians believe that homosexuals are evil because of a few passages in the Bible, and don't deserve to be treated as such. "We" want to deny them the basic right to be married, and all the government benefits that go with it.(I will admit, Christians aren't the only people who are trying to do this, but they are the biggest push behind it)

I don't want to comment on the rest, because 1) I don't want to take the time, and 2) It seemed like you thought I was making a personal attack on you.

People, face it.

The Bible lists a lot of things that are sinful. Lying. Adulerating. Homosexuality. Molesting children. Stealing. Cursing God.

It doesn't freaking rank them....

Sorry - I added the 'bold' emphasis myself...

Actually, if you have read the Bible, it quite clearly DOES rank sins...

Old Testament 'Abominations' come in two grades, and there are at LEAST two New Testament levels of 'sin'.

hmm, i think that gay have just as much rigths as hetero`s.

does it matter what happens in nature?

we humans aren doing so much things that arent natural

Let me turn that around for you. If your god created everything, who created him?

Nobody, God has no beginning or end, its so beyond our puny comprehension, that a cat would work out how to fly an F/18 quicker.
It makes sense, as using the most simplistic explanation for this, this would have to be it, as the only other explanation would be something creating God, and something creating that something and something creating etc etc which brings you back to square one, as there could never be a true beginning, as it is impossible for there to be just nothing before that.

The Godless, despite their desperate belief for no supreme being, cannot or will avoid explaning what was around before the universe came into creation, and what was around before that, or before that etc.
The true answer is there is none, time or our measurement of 8 -12 Billion years for the universe, could frighteningly be only a fraction of an even larger time scale, which our universes timeline, big bang to big finish only represents a fraction of.

The Godless, despite their desperate belief for no supreme being, cannot or will avoid explaning what was around before the universe came into creation, and what was around before that, or before that etc.

Can you explain to me, in detail, how a jetplane works? If not, surely you must admit to the excistence of the Jetplane Faerie.

Can you explain to me, in detail, how a jetplane works? If not, surely you must admit to the excistence of the Jetplane Faerie.



Ah, but jetplanes can be explained by modern science whereas the origin of the universe cannot. And do you know why it cannot? Because, the only acceptable explanation would refute the materialistic paradigm currently dominant in the scientific community. Which is why they will NEVER have a feasible explanation.

Ah, but jetplanes can be explained by modern science whereas the origin of the universe cannot. And do you know why it cannot? Because, the only acceptable explanation would refute the materialistic paradigm currently dominant in the scientific community. Which is why they will NEVER have a feasible explanation.

I sense desperation. :rolleyes:

I sense desperation.


Why should I be desperate? At least God provides an answer to universal origins. If anything, those unable to provide one should be desperate ;)

Dont Buy His Cyberfruits!!!

Ah, but jetplanes can be explained by modern science whereas the origin of the universe cannot. And do you know why it cannot? Because, the only acceptable explanation would refute the materialistic paradigm currently dominant in the scientific community. Which is why they will NEVER have a feasible explanation.

That doesn't make sense. You assume that the 'current materialistic paradigm' is the only feasable option in science.
If anything, science will either find an alternative to your 'only acceptable explaination', or deal with the consequences.

Why should I be desperate? At least God provides an answer to universal origins. If anything, those unable to provide one should be desperate ;)

And what is this answer? God did it? Yeah, that sure explains it. :rolleyes:

The Godless, despite their desperate belief for no supreme being, cannot or will avoid explaning what was around before the universe came into creation, and what was around before that, or before that etc.

Cyclic Universe.... reborn out of the ashes of the previous collapsed incarnation.

Next.

Can you explain to me, in detail, how a jetplane works? If not, surely you must admit to the excistence of the Jetplane Faerie.

It works by using turbines.
Next.

And what is this answer? God did it? Yeah, that sure explains it. :rolleyes:

Its better than your one, which is...?
Oh thats right, as you have no real evidence, you just prefer to believe in nothing, so how does this help your spirituality?

Cyclic Universe.... reborn out of the ashes of the previous collapsed incarnation.
Next.

So your saying, the universe here is jusr repeating itself over and over again, no beginning or end... kinda like God isnt it?

It works by using turbines.
Next.
He/she did say in detail

So your saying, the universe here is jusr repeating itself over and over again, no beginning or end... kinda like God isnt it?
Deffinatly a possibility ... no god creator just no begining or end

He/she did say in detail

Here you go then , knock yourself out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A593048

Deffinatly a possibility ... no god creator just no begining or end

Like God.

It doesn't as long as homo's don't have children, point stated and made. Homoism is a methood used by Gaia (GOD, the devine what ever you call it) to destroy weakened genetics and to control human population, though if you cheat, in my eyes you deserve to die from the many diseases that await you, gay or strait, doesn't matter, be faithfull to your partner or pay the price.

Like God.
That theory has been put forward before ... the universe fufilling the nesessities of a deity
Dunno a possibility

I wouldent want to take a logical leap and proclaim it the truth without a lot more information though

That theory has been put forward before ... the universe fufilling the nesessities of a deity
Dunno a possibility

I wouldent want to take a logical leap and proclaim it the truth without a lot more information though

Its a possibility that God and the Universe are one and the same, Im starting to believe so, is there a name for this theory?

Its a possibility that God and the Universe are one and the same, Im starting to believe so, is there a name for this theory?
Not sure I have seen it proposed but never with a name

If I find out I will let ya know

Not sure I have seen it proposed but never with a name

If I find out I will let ya know

Cheers Thrust.

This post is on various things, but I think they are related to this topic. This is all my opinion, so, you can attack me for it if you want to later.

I am a Christian(not really important, but just thought I'd say it)

First, to all fellow Christians:

1.I'd like to point out the fact that saying "You're going to hell because God and the Bible say so" is pointless; especially when speaking to people who don't believe in God. You're basically accomplishing what I would accomplish by running around throwing copies of the Book of the Dead at people screaming, "Ra says you're going to hell"....

...3.Don't look down on people who don't share your views in religion. God gave everyone free will, it isn't right for you to be mad at them for exercising that right.

4.Don't try to force you religious views on a) non-religious people b) non-Christians and c) other denominational Christians. God doesn't want brow-beaten people becoming Christians, he wants people who become Christians of their free will, not out of fear.

5.The Bible, should not, I repeat NOT be taken at face value. I mean, writers back then probably did not submit copies of the Bible to God for editing, so, I'm sure something is a little different from what God intended. Besides, the prejudices of the writer are usually captured in the writing.
Example: Moses is sitting there writing away, and then he has writers block, so he thinks "What's important enough to put in here? Hmmm, I'm pretty sure God said something about how gay people are bad, and if He didn't, what's it matter? They're gross."

Another point on that, the original thoughts behind the words written in the Bible were lost when those writers died. You can interprete the Bible however you wish, no one will ever know it's true meaning. And a final note on this:the original meaning of Bible verses was probably greatly distorted from what was originally written because of multiple trranslations an differing interpretations (a great example is to go to http://www.freetranslations.com and type in any phrase. Then translate that phrase into any language then translate it back into english, and see if it means the EXACT SAME thing as what you put in to begin with)....

....How is it right for any person to condemn another? There is not a living person on the Earth who knows the mind of God, and anyone who claims to needs to be locked up in a padded room.
Why do people go around ignoring the most important, or GOLDEN RULE: Love thy neighbor as thyself(Leviticus:19.18)? Now I ask, do you want to be told you're going to hell for being born a certain way?
Didn't Jesus, whose teachings Christianity are centered upon, basically tell everyone the same thing as the Golden Rule?


Thank you!!! Not everybody believes in the God that (may or may not) say that homosexuality is wrong!

Also:

...It's strict, but then again Christianity is not a religion for the morally weak. It requires zeal, conviction, and selflessness.

So you admit that one can choose whether or not to practice Christianity! Please stop quoting the Bible like it's going to convince non-believers that you're right. You will not go to Hell for tolerating people you perceive as sinners.

And as for the actual topic of this thread, here is something I posted in a different thread:

In 1991, neurobiologist Simon LeVay did a study in which he autopsied the brains of 19 gay men, 16 straight men, and 6 straight women. He examined a nucleus in the hypothalamus in each brain, with only numbers labeling them (he didn't know whose brain one was from while he was studying it).

This nucleus is known to be involved in regulating sexual behavior, and to be larger in straight men than in women. He found that the nuclei in the gay men's brains were half the size of the straight men's nuclei, and around the same size as the women's. So, there is a biological difference.

Like others have already stated, it matters because religious zealots who hate gay people need a divine reason to do so, and that is that it is not natural, and against God's will. But of course, they then say that gay people don't have a right to be happy, and that they should shut up and forget about true love; all because people with opposing views think they should.

Let's say I belonged to a religion in which my Lord says that all dwellings are to be painted in the Holy Color of Blue. I also happen to live in a neighborhood in which all of the current families belong to the same faith.

One day, a new family moves in and decides to paint their house orange. Would we be justified in trying to stop them from being able to do so? Our argument is that our religion is the Truth, and our God commands us not to accept others who sin against Him. Plus, we would have to look at the orange house every day, and we just don't want to have to be put through that. Why can't they just conform?!?!?!?

It doesn't as long as homo's don't have children, point stated and made. Homoism is a methood used by Gaia (GOD, the devine what ever you call it) to destroy weakened genetics and to control human population, though if you cheat, in my eyes you deserve to die from the many diseases that await you, gay or strait, doesn't matter, be faithfull to your partner or pay the price.Er...please don't tell people you're from Texas, it's embarrassing.

Er...please don't tell people you're from Texas, it's embarrassing.
Don't worry BK, we know not all Texan's are bigots and homophobes hiding behind the thin veils of their own insecurity. There are a few I can think of, just as sweet as honey. ;)

Don't worry BK, we know not all Texan's are bigots and homophobes hiding behind the thin veils of their own insecurity. There are a few I can think of, just as sweet as honey. ;)
Thanks.
And thanks for being a sweetheart lately. :fluffle:

Thanks.
And thanks for being a sweetheart lately. :fluffle:
You mean I'm not all the time! :p

BK, you just keep that chin up! ;)

Homosexuality is not natural, it is a perverted choice that is socially obtained. I suggest you should try and turn your lives around by praying to GOD, repenting of your sinful lifestyles and accepting Jesus Christ in your lives as your personal savior. The sooner the better! GOD bless!

Homosexuality is not natural, it is a perverted choice that is socially obtained. I suggest you should try and turn your lives around by praying to GOD, repenting of your sinful lifestyles and accepting Jesus Christ in your lives as your personal savior. The sooner the better! GOD bless!
Amazing! How can you see to type with your head so far up your ass crack? :confused:

Homosexuality is not natural, it is a perverted choice that is socially obtained. I suggest you should try and turn your lives around by praying to GOD, repenting of your sinful lifestyles and accepting Jesus Christ in your lives as your personal savior. The sooner the better! GOD bless!
Rofl
Say, been smoking crack long?
Unless you just really enjoy constantly being told what a blithering twit you are, you might try a different forum.
You're going to get slaughtered.

And isnt it cute the way he capitalizes every letter of the word god, BK? Aww! He's such a cuddly little ten year old!

Thay Arnburg, you thassy thailor you! I need a new firsth mate for my eight inch sail boat! What thay you and I go out on the high theas of pleeeeaaaathure! ;)

Homosexuality is not natural, it is a perverted choice that is socially obtained. I suggest you should try and turn your lives around by praying to GOD, repenting of your sinful lifestyles and accepting Jesus Christ in your lives as your personal savior. The sooner the better! GOD bless!

Hear!Hear!
Give up on these ones Arnie, their truly beyond any help.

It works by using turbines.
Next.

Cute. But my point was that, just because someone can't explain something in detail, doesn't mean it's automatically caused by some supernatural being.

Homosexuality is not natural, it is a perverted choice that is socially obtained. I suggest you should try and turn your lives around by praying to GOD, repenting of your sinful lifestyles and accepting Jesus Christ in your lives as your personal savior. The sooner the better! GOD bless!

Christianity is not natural, it is a perverted choice that is socially obtained. I suggest you should try and turn your lives around by praying to Allah, repenting of your sinful lifestyles and accepting Allah in your lives as your personal savior. The sooner the better! Allah akbar!

Its better than your one, which is...?
Oh thats right, as you have no real evidence, you just prefer to believe in nothing, so how does this help your spirituality?

Mine, which isn't "We don't know, so we'll pretend some faerie did it."?

So your saying, the universe here is jusr repeating itself over and over again, no beginning or end... kinda like God isnt it?

How would that be 'like god'? Because YOU give god the property of eternity? I don't know... I don't see how 'god' can be 'infinite' if duration doesn't arrive until a material reality is formed, and ends when a material reality ceases.

'God' can eternal, if reality is ALSO eternal... which kind of puts the kibosh on the idea that 'god' was there 'first'.

Of course, you can always argue that reality and 'god' are the same thing... what a certain warm-tropics islander used to call 'it is'...

How would that be 'like god'? Because YOU give god the property of eternity? I don't know... I don't see how 'god' can be 'infinite' if duration doesn't arrive until a material reality is formed, and ends when a material reality ceases.

'God' can eternal, if reality is ALSO eternal... which kind of puts the kibosh on the idea that 'god' was there 'first'.

Of course, you can always argue that reality and 'god' are the same thing... what a certain warm-tropics islander used to call 'it is'...
You know read down … replace reality with universe and we have said about the same thing LOL

You know read down … replace reality with universe and we have said about the same thing LOL

Not for the first time... I guess it's true what they say about great minds thinking alike. :D