NationStates Jolt Archive

The thread about the 9/11 hijacker made me think...
I remember the day quite clearly, I was shocked beyond believe after seeing those pictures on TV. I felt sorry for the people who died that day (for all of them) and I was even more sorry for the people left behind who had to cope with the shock of the events and the loss. I was worried for friends I had in New York and I hoped they would be safe.

But by the evening of the day, I realised that what many Americans seemed to feel about it was very different from what I felt.
I felt grief and sorrow, I felt shocked and disbelieve, I felt regret and pain.
America seemed to feel only hatred and revenge.
I asked myselft, how could this happen? How could someone feel enough hatred to kill and destroy at such a scale? What went wrong? How can it be corrected?
America pointed the finger at Islam, and pointed guns a short while later.

Please don't misunderstand this. I'm taking this day as an example that most people will hopefully be able to understand. The real question I have is, why do we hate? Why do we seek revenge rather than understanding and peace? Why doesn't anybody on this planet seem to be ready to forgive?

I've read so many threads, to give another example, where the Americans have a go at the French (or the Germans, the Japanese, the Chinese, you name it) for events that for the most part happened before even my grandparents were born. And likewise I see people posting against America.

What is revenge about?

hey i try to be forgiving, i don't like to fight, even with my enemys (i'm not a full pasafist, but i could do without all the fighting we ppl do)
maybe we do point the finger too fast in some cases, maybe we should be more selective about who we pick fights with fight
but in some cases (not necisarially refering to 9/11 but more in general) ppl are just wrong
on both sides of the argument

Revenge is about making sure you aren't attacked again. You make an example of those who wronged you. Show that the consequences of attacking you are so great that nobody would take that chance. That's why I think we've gone way too easy on the terrorists and their supporters.

Revenge is about making sure you aren't attacked again. You make an example of those who wronged you. Show that the consequences of attacking you are so great that nobody would take that chance. That's why I think we've gone way too easy on the terrorists and their supporters.

One question : Has that EVER worked?
Israel has been trying that way since it was founded, and they sure managed to create a safe environment for their children

Drunk Commies, I think you misunderstand about the whole revenge thing… "revenge" is not the same as punishment or example-making (which can be necessary). Revenge is something which is not necessary… if someone murdered my wife (bit hard considering I don't have one), I would probably take revenge, but in general revenge leads to nothing.

I believe that your reaction was the typical one, and the reaction of hatred and blame was only on the part of those whose purpose it served.

The only possible motives for revenge that can be articulated are:

1. Getting revenge on someone to ensure that doesn't happen again. Whilst in Wide-spread History that hasn't worked, it has worked on a smaller scale (i.e beating up the older kid who stole your sweeties so they don't do it again.).

2. Getting revenge on someone's behalf so that your mind is rested. This mainly means killing someone who killed your wife so that you can rest easy.

There are many other forms which are hard to articulate.

The only possible motives for revenge that can be articulated are:

1. Getting revenge on someone to ensure that doesn't happen again. Whilst in Wide-spread History that hasn't worked, it has worked on a smaller scale (i.e beating up the older kid who stole your sweeties so they don't do it again.).

2. Getting revenge on someone's behalf so that your mind is rested. This mainly means killing someone who killed your wife so that you can rest easy.

There are many other forms which are hard to articulate.

So, the first doesn't work in most cases and the second means personal satisfaction? Can you really justify to kill for any of those reasons?

this is a really massively complex issue...

my personal view is that you should never endorse or encourage revenge as such, but if it is justice (such as convicting someone who murdered your wife, to re-use the common example)

hate is the main problem. if you teach your child to hate your enemies and then your enemy kills you, your child will seek revenge by killing the man who murdered you and so their child will hate your child and seek to kill them as well.

It takes far more courage than most people have to admit that they were wrong and to look for peace than it does to lash out.

But an agressive revenge can work as a deterrant. Look at Israel. It didn't work against the Palestinians, but against the Egyptians it did. When Egypt attacked and ended up losing Sinai (later given back because the Israelis are too soft) they decided they'd better make peace with the pitbull on their border.

Because hatred and anger are much baser feelings compared to compassion for humanity as a whole. They're that much easier to indulge.

But an agressive revenge can work as a deterrant. Look at Israel. It didn't work against the Palestinians, but against the Egyptians it did. When Egypt attacked and ended up losing Sinai (later given back because the Israelis are too soft) they decided they'd better make peace with the pitbull on their border.

... ready to attack again as soon as they get a reliable ally for it again and meanwhile supporting Palestine. Israel is sitting on dynamite, and they try cutting the fuse by firing at it :rolleyes:

I think they are a perfect example for revenge creating revenge again, martyrs on both sides and unwillingness to compromise and to forgive. There were so many options for peace and all were given up for revenge...
I'm not talking about justice here, justice is one thing, it's necessary to run society. But killing people because you don't agree with their actions, opinions or behaviour is wrong, in my opinion.

The thread about the 9/11 hijacker made me think...
I remember the day quite clearly, I was shocked beyond believe after seeing those pictures on TV. I felt sorry for the people who died that day (for all of them) and I was even more sorry for the people left behind who had to cope with the shock of the events and the loss. I was worried for friends I had in New York and I hoped they would be safe.

But by the evening of the day, I realised that what many Americans seemed to feel about it was very different from what I felt.
I felt grief and sorrow, I felt shocked and disbelieve, I felt regret and pain.
America seemed to feel only hatred and revenge.
I asked myselft, how could this happen? How could someone feel enough hatred to kill and destroy at such a scale? What went wrong? How can it be corrected?
America pointed the finger at Islam, and pointed guns a short while later.

Please don't misunderstand this. I'm taking this day as an example that most people will hopefully be able to understand. The real question I have is, why do we hate? Why do we seek revenge rather than understanding and peace? Why doesn't anybody on this planet seem to be ready to forgive?

I've read so many threads, to give another example, where the Americans have a go at the French (or the Germans, the Japanese, the Chinese, you name it) for events that for the most part happened before even my grandparents were born. And likewise I see people posting against America.

What is revenge about?

I'd argue that it isn't about revenge as much as justice and, in my American opinion, there is still room for mercy in that process as well. The pity and sadness you expressed was very near my own reaction. At the same time, as sad as it is, every country has a right to defend itself from attacks of this nature. Yes, the U.S. has gone to far in the name of defense in some parts of the "war on terror", but the concept of bringing those who perpretrate crimes of this nature on others to justice is as justified as prosecuting any murderer...

Well, there are a variety of motivations for revenge, but I'll make an analogy for an obvious one:

Imagine a wasp stings you. It can sting you again. You mash it with a large object. It cannot sting you any more.

The thread about the 9/11 hijacker made me think...
I remember the day quite clearly, I was shocked beyond believe after seeing those pictures on TV. I felt sorry for the people who died that day (for all of them) and I was even more sorry for the people left behind who had to cope with the shock of the events and the loss. I was worried for friends I had in New York and I hoped they would be safe.

But by the evening of the day, I realised that what many Americans seemed to feel about it was very different from what I felt.
I felt grief and sorrow, I felt shocked and disbelieve, I felt regret and pain.
America seemed to feel only hatred and revenge.
I asked myselft, how could this happen? How could someone feel enough hatred to kill and destroy at such a scale? What went wrong? How can it be corrected?
America pointed the finger at Islam, and pointed guns a short while later.

Please don't misunderstand this. I'm taking this day as an example that most people will hopefully be able to understand. The real question I have is, why do we hate? Why do we seek revenge rather than understanding and peace? Why doesn't anybody on this planet seem to be ready to forgive?

I've read so many threads, to give another example, where the Americans have a go at the French (or the Germans, the Japanese, the Chinese, you name it) for events that for the most part happened before even my grandparents were born. And likewise I see people posting against America.

What is revenge about?

I hate to say it but I think it's a survival instinct. Our insticts tell us to remove the thing that causes the fear in front of us. Deep down revenge is about making ourselves feel safe.
Not to say that I think revenge is good. It has the potental of being very misled & dangerous but it also is a catylist that drives us to innovation at the same time.

I consider myself a very peaceful person. I don't condomne the blame if Islam for the 9/11 disaster but I would like to see the actual people responsible brought to justice. This is a form of revenge & I don't deny it. I want the world to know that America wont tolerate this form of abuse. Unfortunately the people responsible were Islamic & in a country with free speech comes people who had the right & did so very loudly speak against Islam. Others followed & disaster insued. The Sheep who felt most threatened fell on the words of those with the quick easy answer & the cycle of revenge perpuated.

Fear and hatred are closely intertwined remember. 9/11 caused great fear, which lead to great anger, focused against a target, it became great hatred. And revenge was taken because of that hatred.

Justice, revenge. How similar are they really? Is revenge simply Justice? Or is revenge simply another crime commited?

I am saddened by the actions of our leaders sometimes, who focused the pain and fear of our nation into something so hateful. It should have been done better, it should have been used wisely. It wasn't.

But even though some of the ideals we hold have been ignored and discarded for the present, we must not fall into hatred either. A reasonable response would do a lot more for us then simple passionate defense of our own ideals.

Justice, revenge. How similar are they really? Is revenge simply Justice? Or is revenge simply another crime commited?

It's not revenge... it's Punishment. :cool:

One question : Has that EVER worked?
Israel has been trying that way since it was founded, and they sure managed to create a safe environment for their children
Yes.
Rome. Particularly the annihilation of Carthage.
The Maoist purges of China.
Napolean's defeat at Waterloo
The European conquest of the New World.
Sherman's March to the Sea in the American Civil war.
The abandonment of tactical warfare for strategic warfare in WWII.
The Vietnamese victory in Vietnam

I could come up with more examples, but one's enough and why not just stick to the examples everyone would know about.

It's not revenge... it's Punishment. :cool:

Punishment denotes a measured response to deter or discourage improper behavior.

Revenge denotes a response in reaction to something that has little checks on its scope, scale, duration, or intensity.

Which do you believe closer resembles the actions of the US government? How about the words of the sitting president? What do they indicate?

How measured a response is an indefinate, never-ending, war against all forms of terrorism everywhere? Does that sound like a punishment of a specific crime? Or does that sound like an act of revenge against entire peoples for the crimes of a small band of terrorists and couple of national governments that aided them?

Punishment and Justice...Revenge and Retaliation.

Reading the intro to this thread made me think of a line from the film "Lawrence of Arabia".

"...With Major Lawrence mercy is a passion, with me it is merely good manners, you may judge for yourself which is the more reliable." - Alec Guinness

After the Columbine tragedy the father of Rachel Scott (the first victim to be shot) openly forgave Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold for what they did. I think that this shows true strength of character and forgiveness should be an attribute that all people aspire to have.

Punishment and justice would follow a certain system. To stay with the original example:

Justice would have been to start a criminal investigation, use international law to get hold of the suspects, bring them to court and then asign an adequate punishment.

None of this happened.

What happened were two wars, thousands of innocents killed, propaganda and hate, a rift between the United States and the United Nations, a similar rift between America and the population, if not the governments, of Europe, hundreds of innocents kept prisoner in appaling conditions, the promotion of further fear, injustice and prejudice and not a single guilty person convicted.

And there is no end in sight...

After the Columbine tragedy the father of Rachel Scott (the first victim to be shot) openly forgave Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold for what they did. I think that this shows true strength of character and forgiveness should be an attribute that all people aspire to have.

It does. Very much so.