NationStates Jolt Archive

My brother, who some of you may recall is transgendered, has increasingly been cross-dressing (and looks fabulous while doing so, I must add), though he has been careful to go to the kinds of clubs that are okay with this sort of thing. However, I found out that this weekend, he was walking from one such club (literally within a block of the place) when two guys jumped him, yelling things like, "fag", and other unmentionable things. Now, my brother is 6'4", and easily 200 lbs, but he isn't particularly aggressive unless attacked. He's already been beat up pretty badly while cross dressing (no, the police said, they didn't think it had anything to do with that, it was just a random act of violence :rolleyes: ) and I don't think he was prepared for another hospital stay, so he fought back. A bunch of other trannys from the club saw what was happening and ran (in high heels and skirts...just PICTURE IT!) to help him out. Seeing that they were surrounded by pissed off drag-queens, the two guys begged off and hightailed it out of there.

I have a couple of things to say about this incident.

1) If you really hate gay people and transgendered/transsexuals so much, why don't you try your best to avoid them?

2) Just because a guy is in a skirt, doesn't mean he 'fights like a girl'.

3) I'm very, very glad my brother didn't get hurt this time, and I'm getting really worried that some day, it's going to be a lot more serious than this.

4) Where were the dig cams? Six decked-out trannys scaring off the alpha males? TOO FUNNY!

I would have loved to see that.

I would have payed to see that :D

1) If you really hate gay people and transgendered/transsexuals so much, why don't you try your best to avoid them?

I have no idea. Maybe they just want an excuse to beat the shit out of someone?

2) Just because a guy is in a skirt, doesn't mean he 'fights like a girl'.

Haha, got that right!

3) I'm very, very glad my brother didn't get hurt this time, and I'm getting really worried that some day, it's going to be a lot more serious than this.

Your brother can always carry a switchblade and wear kevlar...

4) Where were the dig cams? Six decked-out trannys scaring off the alpha males? TOO FUNNY!

Hahahahahahahahaha! I'd love to see this, too.

1: Rational thinking like that requires two brain cells to collide and spark something off... and it's highly likely they split the one between them, so that shoves logic out the window.

2:Girls are brutal in a fight... all that gouging and kicking in places THAT ARE NOT MEANT FOR KICKING.... they should probably be thankful he doesn't :D

3:Yup, 'tis a good thing. I mean I'll probably be taking self-defense classes, since the neighbourhood I'm in isn't all that great, and the ones surrounding it are some of the worst in the city.

4:Nobody EVER remembers to bring a camera. It's the way of things. Well except sometimes. But they tend to get sent off to the heads of television to put in their silly camera shows.

2:Girls are brutal in a fight... all that gouging and kicking in places THAT ARE NOT MEANT FOR KICKING.... they should probably be thankful he doesn't :D
True, true...I 'fight like a girl', and it isn't pretty:) I didn't actually mean to disparage the fighting ability of women...just the idea that women don't fight well, and therefore a tranny wouldn't put up much of a fight.

3:Yup, 'tis a good thing. I mean I'll probably be taking self-defense classes, since the neighbourhood I'm in isn't all that great, and the ones surrounding it are some of the worst in the city.
Another thing that I like to point out when people go off about, "it's a choice"...who the hell CHOOSES to be made a target of violence? Trust me...if he could live hiding what he is, he would...but sometimes being a target is preferable to suicide.

I would have payed to see that :D

Me too, and i am a poor university student :p :p

Isn't it paid?

Oh, and Jordi...you'll like this. My brother has been "out" for a while now, but he never really sat down with the whole family and talked about it, he just did it person by person. I know my dad was pretty sketchy about it for a long time...gay he could understand, but this would be pretty weird for him. So all this time, I thought it was a pretty tender subject with my folks, when suddenly, I find out that THEY thought I was sketchy about it, and that's why we skirted the issue! ME! Sketchy about THAT!!??? I mean, I know I'm a terrible disappointment to my parents, marrying so early, having children, not smoking dope, and generally seeming pretty tight laced...but it's all a facade, and I thought they knew that! Isn't that stupid? I guess we should have ALL known each other better than that.

ah, the sillies. My parents are a bit like that too though, but more on the lines of thinking that I'll be easily offended about it. Some others can be like that too. Thinking that because they want to know about it, I'll assume they're being too nosey/rude.


Just because I don't talk about it "all" the time (though some people may not believe that, heehee), doesn't mean that I'm averse to people finding out about it. It's a subject that a lot of people seem to be curious about, so why deny them the information?


Anyyyyyways, this amuses me. Hoorah for misunderstanding. It makes the world go round.

Well, I have to admit that I like my brother more as a girl:). He's more fun...and relaxed...it's such a transformation, and it isn't just physical. When he's 'normal' (bash that friggin' word into the ground!) he's always angry, and neurotic. It's honestly like he's two different people...himself (as a girl) and this horrible, repressed, self-hating monster the rest of the time.

It's too bad he can't move to a more urban area.

Heck, even where I live (in the deep suburbs outside of Washington, D.C.) he wouldn't have any problems.

Any time a group like the Kinsey Sicks can play at a "normal" nightclub and pack the house, you have to figure you're in a fairly tolerant place.

btw, they are a scream: http://www.kinseysicks.com/

FTM or MTF? I'm confused by you calling "him" your "brother".

It's too bad he can't move to a more urban area.

Heck, even where I live (in the deep suburbs outside of Washington, D.C.) he wouldn't have any problems.

Any time a group like the Kinsey Sicks can play at a "normal" nightclub and pack the house, you have to figure you're in a fairly tolerant place.

btw, they are a scream: http://www.kinseysicks.com/
Well, he's in our provincial capital, Edmonton...but it's a pretty small city and generally gay/transgendered/transsexual/etc hang out at specific bars (a bit for safety, a bit because it tends to be more fun). I'd hate for him to have to move to another city just so he doesn't have to fear an ass-kicking when he's in a kimono:(.

Of course! I'd expect the mental change to be waay more extreme than any physical one. For one thing, you WERE used to seeing your brother in a certain way. For me, it was an act I put on, comedic arrogance, so that I "seemed" to be fine. Of course, I STILL have to maintain it to a degree because not everyone knows but that's a different story. Now that your brother is free to express himself, theres no way he's going to hold back, I'd imagine. I know I won't be. Got a lot of lost living to make up for. It's like going from one extreme to another. Although you probably know all this already.


EDIT: Kimono? WHOA! That's the best thing I've heard all day, heehee.

Next time you see him give him a point from me.

FTM or MTF? I'm confused by you calling "him" your "brother".
I'm calling him my brother because he isn't transsexual, just transgendered. He hasn't had, nor does he plan on having an operation (at least not right now, who knows what may happen in the future). He was born my brother...but if he ever wants me to consider him my sister, I will. Right now, he doesn't really care...I refer to him as female when he's dressed as one, and male when he's not.

EDIT: Kimono? WHOA! That's the best thing I've heard all day, heehee.

Next time you see him give him a point from me.
I honestly don't know where he finds his dresses....I'm a size 8 and I have to get the XXXL in chinese dresses...but he has the best asian clothes...down to this great japanese school-girl outfit! And there are NO stores that cater to trannys around here...but he keeps saying it's his secret. :mad:

I'm calling him my brother because he isn't transsexual, just transgendered. He hasn't had, nor does he plan on having an operation (at least not right now, who knows what may happen in the future). He was born my brother...but if he ever wants me to consider him my sister, I will. Right now, he doesn't really care...I refer to him as female when he's dressed as one, and male when he's not.

I wasn't thinking about it in transsexual terms, but the "FTM" and "MTF" labels were the easiest to use. None the less, "transgendered" usually means that the identification with the biological gender is not alligned, thus being directed towards the opposite.

English seriously needs gender neutral pronouns and nouns for persons.

Well, I have to admit that I like my brother more as a girl:). He's more fun...and relaxed...it's such a transformation, and it isn't just physical. When he's 'normal' (bash that friggin' word into the ground!) he's always angry, and neurotic. It's honestly like he's two different people...himself (as a girl) and this horrible, repressed, self-hating monster the rest of the time.

My husband's aunt is also MTF transgendered, and we found the exact same thing to be true. She's so much more relaxed, at ease and pleasant now. It's wonderful to see her so happy. My only wish for her is that she'll be free to stay happy, without too much interference from the ignorant and fearful (much like your brother has to face.)

Those people were just jealous becasue they can't make a skirt work for them.

I honestly don't know where he finds his dresses....I'm a size 8 and I have to get the XXXL in chinese dresses...but he has the best asian clothes...down to this great japanese school-girl outfit! And there are NO stores that cater to trannys around here...but he keeps saying it's his secret. :mad:

There are two options here. Either he's been to Japan when you weren't looking, or can make his own clothes. Obviously what you should do is invade his house, look for a sowing machine and a room full of fabrics.

You should get Sherlock Holmes on the case.

Bah. He's your brother. If he gets his willy lopped off, he'll still be your brother. If he runs around in a dress and calls himself Nancy because that's what makes him feel good about himself, he's still a man and still your brother.

He might have personal image issues, but that doesn't change the fact that he is, and always will be, a man.

He's not transgendered, he's got mental issues.

Whether or not those issues constitute a bad thing could be open for debate.

So why do people beat these folks up? Because they're different. It's just the grown-up version of beating up the skinny kid with glasses on the playground. Absolutely no difference other than one of magnitude. I don't even think it goes as far as "hate" from the people who would assault men in dresses, or the class geek. It's something more like "I get my sense of self-worth by expressing my dominance over things I consider weird or beneath me."

And it's true, just because a man is in a dress doesn't mean he fights like a girl. Hell, for that matter, just because a woman is in a dress doesn't mean she fights like a girl either :)

I'm glad your brother wasn't hurt either, but it doesn't change the fact that unless he comes to grips with the undeniable fact that he is a MAN, he's going to face that sort of douchebaggery for the rest of his life.

Bah. He's your brother. If he gets his willy lopped off, he'll still be your brother. If he runs around in a dress and calls himself Nancy because that's what makes him feel good about himself, he's still a man and still your brother.

He might have personal image issues, but that doesn't change the fact that he is, and always will be, a man.

He's not transgendered, he's got mental issues.

go and die in a hole, or something.

thanks :)

I wasn't thinking about it in transsexual terms, but the "FTM" and "MTF" labels were the easiest to use. None the less, "transgendered" usually means that the identification with the biological gender is not alligned, thus being directed towards the opposite.

English seriously needs gender neutral pronouns and nouns for persons.
I agree. I say transgendered because most people have some idea of what that means, even if they don't really understand it. MTF to many would just look like more internet lingo (monkey time fun???):). So when speaking of genders, I generally speak of three: male, female and transgendered...but with the understanding that these three groups are not static, unvariable descriptors. Gender is as fluid as sexuality, if you take into account that biology aside, much of our gender identity is defined by culture.

go and die in a hole, or something.

thanks :)


Excuse me?

I didn't realize it was a requirement of this forum that all members subscribe to Nadkor's Cuddly World View and not express a differing opinion.

You do realize that by telling me to die in a hole, you're essentially cut from the same mold as some asswipe who'd beat up a man in a dress. It's just a matter of degree.

Hypocrite.

snip


I bet, that aside from chromosones, there'd be not one single male thing about him, if he went the whole way through with it.

What with having both a female body and brain and all. Where does the guy part feature?

Although, your statement equally applies to me. And to be honest, if you want to hold onto the delusion that I'll still be male after the op, then good for you. You're still wrong though. Who made you the authority on who can or cannot be their chosen gender?

And again, you've made the major, yet common error. The infalibility of nature. Nature is a widely variable force. Anything that has the possibility of happening will happen. To assume that somehow, it is impossible that a female brain can develop within a male body is.... laughable.

Excuse me?

I didn't realize it was a requirement of this forum that all members subscribe to Nadkor's Cuddly World View and not express a differing opinion.

You do realize that by telling me to die in a hole, you're essentially cut from the same mold as some asswipe who'd beat up a man in a dress. It's just a matter of degree.

Hypocrite.
dont assume to know anything about me

Bah. He's your brother. If he gets his willy lopped off, he'll still be your brother. If he runs around in a dress and calls himself Nancy because that's what makes him feel good about himself, he's still a man and still your brother. That's only true if you consider that the only thing that defines gender is biology. I do not. Biology is important, and you can't ignore that, but so is culture, and gender roles are dictated by culture. If you meet a person who is very 'female' in the way she acts, and you really don't know one way or the other her biological gender, what are you going to call her? Most likely, female.

He might have personal image issues, but that doesn't change the fact that he is, and always will be, a man.

He's not transgendered, he's got mental issues. Whether or not those issues constitute a bad thing could be open for debate. Hmmm...mental issues, fine, and my side of the debate is that this is not a bad thing. However, I believe that his 'mental issues' stem from the fact that he is more culturally 'female' than he is biologically 'male'. I don't understand the psychology or the physiology of this, but it really doesn't matter to me. This is what he wants, and I support it. I support ANYONE who feels this way. I will respect their wishes to be named, and treated, as female or male, and I will not be constrained by crude biological examinations in order to determine someone's 'real' gender. Are we really just the sum of our reproductive parts?



So why do people beat these folks up? Because they're different. It's just the grown-up version of beating up the skinny kid with glasses on the playground. Absolutely no difference other than one of magnitude. I don't even think it goes as far as "hate" from the people who would assault men in dresses, or the class geek. It's something more like "I get my sense of self-worth by expressing my dominance over things I consider weird or beneath me." But there is an added component to the beating up of a gay/transgendered person. No one goes around saying, "In my relgion, geeks are unnatural and should die. They choose to be geeks, and they should be punished for their choice".

And it's true, just because a man is in a dress doesn't mean he fights like a girl. Hell, for that matter, just because a woman is in a dress doesn't mean she fights like a girl either :)

I'm glad your brother wasn't hurt either, but it doesn't change the fact that unless he comes to grips with the undeniable fact that he is a MAN, he's going to face that sort of douchebaggery for the rest of his life. But what do you mean by 'MAN'? What characteristics must he emulate in order to be a man? And he WOULD be emulating/faking them, because he just doesn't feel that way. So if you want him to put on a charade, and play at being male, you'll find he does a poor job of it. Having a penis doesn't teach you how to act. Society does. Culture does. He just can't do it, no matter how hard he's tried...and trust me, he's tried for years. I think it's rather the opposite...he has come to grips with the fact that despite his biology, he is NOT a man...and despite the added danger of those who hate and those who want to define, he is happier for it. The only reason I could imagine anyone wanting to interfere with that sort of happiness is that they act out of either ignorance or jealousy.

And again, you've made the major, yet common error. The infalibility of nature. Nature is a widely variable force. Anything that has the possibility of happening will happen. To assume that somehow, it is impossible that a female brain can develop within a male body is.... laughable.

And you have made the major, yet common error, that what one decides is true about onesself is necessarily true.

You can call yourself a girl and go on about your female brain, but you're still a man. Deal with it.

If this topic is to be debated, it should, in all fairness, go into another thread. I must apologise to the OP for bringing it up.

Excuse me?

I didn't realize it was a requirement of this forum that all members subscribe to Nadkor's Cuddly World View and not express a differing opinion.

You do realize that by telling me to die in a hole, you're essentially cut from the same mold as some asswipe who'd beat up a man in a dress. It's just a matter of degree.

Hypocrite.
Hmm...as long as YOU realise that your entire post in essence said, "Nadkor, and others like you, you have MENTAL ISSUES SO GET OVER IT YOU FREAKS!"

Just because it is currently somewhat acceptable to treat transgendered people like nutjobs, doesn't mean it's right, or humane, or 'not flaming because other people think this too'.

And you have made the major, yet common error, that what one decides is true about onesself is necessarily true.

You can call yourself a girl and go on about your female brain, but you're still a man. Deal with it.

If this topic is to be debated, it should, in all fairness, go into another thread. I must apologise to the OP for bringing it up.
how many men do you know have breasts and a vagina?

Those bigots. They need to get over their prejudice.

And you have made the major, yet common error, that what one decides is true about onesself is necessarily true.

You can call yourself a girl and go on about your female brain, but you're still a man. Deal with it.

If this topic is to be debated, it should, in all fairness, go into another thread. I must apologise to the OP for bringing it up.
No, I think it can stay here.

The problem is, we don't really understand what has happened to those who don't fit nicely into 'male' or 'female'. Right now, we can only define people by their genitalia. There is some research into how the male brain differs from the female, but the results are less than conclusive at this point. However, it is undeniable that differences exist. Simply because we don't understand the physiology of those differences yet does NOT mean it is a purely 'mental' difference. We are much more able to handle the strange gender fluctuations that occur in nature, but somehow we can not abide it in ourselves. As Jordi said...nature is an odd thing, and variations are the norm. THE NORM.

And you have made the major, yet common error, that what one decides is true about onesself is necessarily true.

You can call yourself a girl and go on about your female brain, but you're still a man. Deal with it.

If this topic is to be debated, it should, in all fairness, go into another thread. I must apologise to the OP for bringing it up.


Since the OP is debating it, I'll assume, for now, it's fine to continue.

Firstly, I'll know more about me than you ever will. If anyone will make a decision about myself, it is me, and not you. Secondly, there are male and female brains. Certain parts are more active, dominant than others. And it is possible for them to end up in the wrong body. Nobody knows why. There are multiple theories.

I ask again. What makes me a man? If you can tell me one thing that forces me to be male, then go ahead. Tell me. If you can prove to me that transgendered people are impossible and that every time it is some mental issue, then go ahead. Prove it.

All you're saying is "you're a guy. Deal." WHY? That's.... the weakest argument I've ever heard.


Let's flip the tables, in fact. Say, you were born in the body of the opposite sex to who you are. You'd be perfectly happy? You wouldn't feel that you should be who you really are? Because that's what it is.

All you're saying is "you're a guy. Deal." WHY? That's.... the weakest argument I've ever heard.

Agreed.

I think it's a mistake to discuss the issue of transgenderism or homosexuality as though these people are the ones with 'the problem'. They aren't. It's all the people who are so dead set against these things that have the problem. They are the ones so trapped within their narrow definitions of gender and sexuality, and really, I feel more sympathy for them than for people who go ahead and allow themselves to be happy by freely expressing their differences.

Oh, and Jordi...you'll like this. My brother has been "out" for a while now, but he never really sat down with the whole family and talked about it, he just did it person by person. I know my dad was pretty sketchy about it for a long time...gay he could understand, but this would be pretty weird for him. So all this time, I thought it was a pretty tender subject with my folks, when suddenly, I find out that THEY thought I was sketchy about it, and that's why we skirted the issue! ME! Sketchy about THAT!!??? I mean, I know I'm a terrible disappointment to my parents, marrying so early, having children, not smoking dope, and generally seeming pretty tight laced...but it's all a facade, and I thought they knew that! Isn't that stupid? I guess we should have ALL known each other better than that.

Somewhat related (although not transgendered-related), a friend of mine who had always set off blips on my gaydar came out as bisexual this weekend. He introduced us to his boyfriend (who does drag shows and go-go dances - so its a little related =) as if we were all going to have a problem with it - despite all of us having gay friends and having made it abundantly clear that we don't care what gender/sexuality someone is.

Anyways, turns out he was afraid that we'd go blabbing, because he isn't quite ready to tell his family yet - another silly assumption. I've had more than one friend come out to me before they were ready to jump completely out of the closet. Never had a problem before. LOL

As for your brother, I'm glad he was able to defend himself (and I would have loved to see the looks on those guys' faces). It's truly a sad part of this world that people have to worry about that type of violence. I really do think it is getting phased out more and more though.

I think it's getting phased out too. I honestly think that the virulent antis are in the minority. More common are the middle-ground 'don't cares', and the active supporters. Going the way of the dodo are the truly hateful...I hope!

My brother, who some of you may recall is transgendered, has increasingly been cross-dressing (and looks fabulous while doing so, I must add), though he has been careful to go to the kinds of clubs that are okay with this sort of thing. However, I found out that this weekend, he was walking from one such club (literally within a block of the place) when two guys jumped him, yelling things like, "fag", and other unmentionable things. Now, my brother is 6'4", and easily 200 lbs, but he isn't particularly aggressive unless attacked. He's already been beat up pretty badly while cross dressing (no, the police said, they didn't think it had anything to do with that, it was just a random act of violence :rolleyes: ) and I don't think he was prepared for another hospital stay, so he fought back. A bunch of other trannys from the club saw what was happening and ran (in high heels and skirts...just PICTURE IT!) to help him out. Seeing that they were surrounded by pissed off drag-queens, the two guys begged off and hightailed it out of there.

I have a couple of things to say about this incident.

1) If you really hate gay people and transgendered/transsexuals so much, why don't you try your best to avoid them?

2) Just because a guy is in a skirt, doesn't mean he 'fights like a girl'.

3) I'm very, very glad my brother didn't get hurt this time, and I'm getting really worried that some day, it's going to be a lot more serious than this.

4) Where were the dig cams? Six decked-out trannys scaring off the alpha males? TOO FUNNY!


This is a serious situation, but you've almost made it humorous.

Its clear the assholes that attacked your brother were hateful and probably went out of their way looking for trouble. Regardless of my opinion of cross dressing-or any other life-style different from mine-I wouldnt go to them and start trouble.
And two guys jumping one? Come-on. They were scumbags that thought they were going to do some gay bashing. I'd love to know how they changed the story to brag to their friends.
"huh-Huh-we kicked this queer's ass"... How can they live with themselves now? They got together to beat someone up-some one they felt was weak and inferior-Instead, they were beaten with handbags and shoes and wigs?
In my opinion, the attackers in this story are the "Fags".

I'm glad your brother wasnt hurt. I hope he doesnt have another incident like this ever again. But it sounds like he is in a situation and area where his kind may be sought out for abuse.
Its sad when some people choose to go out of their way to injure or persecute others. I honestly might chuckle to myself if I recognized a man in drag, but I would never do anything in an attempt to humiliate or harm him.

What's the old(-ish) saying again?

Gender is what's between your ears,
Sex is what's betweern your legs,
Sexuality is who's between your legs...

(Right way round for the first two? Well, it looks right to me.)

I've known (as a good friend) a MTF, know of several others and possibly don't know of some as well. The good friend I honestly wouldn't have known (face-to-face) she* was post-op had I not already known him* (through a shared interest in an unrelated electronic forum) whilst pre-op.

(* - I use the terms for him/her according to chronology. It makes sense to me, anyway... ;))

This is a serious situation, but you've almost made it humorous.


I have to. Otherwise, I get too scared. When he was hospitalized last year after being beaten up, knocked unconscious and kicked after that until a cab driver saw this and started honking his horn...I was so full of rage and helplessness...this is my BROTHER...not some random stranger...he has family, friends, he has never done ANYTHING to deserve that kind of beating. I can't understand how people can, just for kicks, go out, make a target of someone and just unleash themselves like that as if there are no consequences. Christ, my brother managed to not kill himself for all these years...and trust me, for a transgendered person, especially in a small, rural area, that's a big accomplishment...and now people are actively SEEKING HIM OUT for violence?

So yeah, I laugh, because it turned out okay. But I know it may not happen like that next time, and I have no doubt there will be a next time. :(

And you have made the major, yet common error, that what one decides is true about onesself is necessarily true.

You have made the major, yet incredibly common error of assuming that either gender or biological sex are cut and dry, black and white issues.

I hate to break it to you, but neither psychology nor physical biology are that simple.

I honestly don't know where he finds his dresses....I'm a size 8 and I have to get the XXXL in chinese dresses...but he has the best asian clothes...down to this great japanese school-girl outfit! And there are NO stores that cater to trannys around here...but he keeps saying it's his secret. :mad:


Sinuhue-are you making this up to see what we say?

6 Feet, 4 Inches tall...in a Japanese School Girl outfit? You're killing me.

Sinuhue-are you making this up to see what we say?

6 Feet, 4 Inches tall...in a Japanese School Girl outfit? You're killing me.

But is that not the coolest thing ever?!

I'm about 5 3, so I'm of a much more average size.... But I envy that.

He *does* shave his legs, right? Otherwise the entire vision is ruined.... RUINED.

I have to. Otherwise, I get too scared. When he was hospitalized last year after being beaten up, knocked unconscious and kicked after that until a cab driver saw this and started honking his horn...I was so full of rage and helplessness...this is my BROTHER...not some random stranger...he has family, friends, he has never done ANYTHING to deserve that kind of beating. I can't understand how people can, just for kicks, go out, make a target of someone and just unleash themselves like that as if there are no consequences. Christ, my brother managed to not kill himself for all these years...and trust me, for a transgendered person, especially in a small, rural area, that's a big accomplishment...and now people are actively SEEKING HIM OUT for violence?

So yeah, I laugh, because it turned out okay. But I know it may not happen like that next time, and I have no doubt there will be a next time. :(


I truly hope you're wrong and there is no next time.

And by the way- If I were to attack someone for whatever reason-gay-bashing, robbing, whatever- I wouldnt target someone that was 6'4" inches wether they were male OR female. Even if I had a friend. I'm 6 ft and 220 and I can really handle myself- I'm not the type to victimize people, but common sense tells me to leave people that large alone.

But is that not the coolest thing ever?!

I'm about 5 3, so I'm of a much more average size.... But I envy that.

He *does* shave his legs, right? Otherwise the entire vision is ruined.... RUINED.


Nope- he doesnt. And he has dark hair. He also has hairy muscular arms with a big flaming skull with a bowie knife through it tattoo on his upper arm. And a panther on his leg.

Sinuhue-are you making this up to see what we say?

6 Feet, 4 Inches tall...in a Japanese School Girl outfit? You're killing me.
No, I'm really not! That's the best thing about it! Both my brothers have a 'thing' for Asian girls...the one likes to date them, and the other likes to dress like them!

But is that not the coolest thing ever?!

I'm about 5 3, so I'm of a much more average size.... But I envy that.

He *does* shave his legs, right? Otherwise the entire vision is ruined.... RUINED.
Yes. He's exceedingly hairless. I can't IMAGINE the effort...

And he applies makeup much more professionally than I think I ever could.

I'm not the type to victimize people, but common sense tells me to leave people that large alone.
Yeah, I don't get that. I doubt they'd approach him that way if he was dressed as a man...seriously, they underestimated the skirt!

My brother, who some of you may recall is transgendered, has increasingly been cross-dressing (and looks fabulous while doing so, I must add), though he has been careful to go to the kinds of clubs that are okay with this sort of thing. However, I found out that this weekend, he was walking from one such club (literally within a block of the place) when two guys jumped him, yelling things like, "fag", and other unmentionable things. Now, my brother is 6'4", and easily 200 lbs, but he isn't particularly aggressive unless attacked. He's already been beat up pretty badly while cross dressing (no, the police said, they didn't think it had anything to do with that, it was just a random act of violence :rolleyes: ) and I don't think he was prepared for another hospital stay, so he fought back. A bunch of other trannys from the club saw what was happening and ran (in high heels and skirts...just PICTURE IT!) to help him out. Seeing that they were surrounded by pissed off drag-queens, the two guys begged off and hightailed it out of there.

I have a couple of things to say about this incident.

1) If you really hate gay people and transgendered/transsexuals so much, why don't you try your best to avoid them?

2) Just because a guy is in a skirt, doesn't mean he 'fights like a girl'.

3) I'm very, very glad my brother didn't get hurt this time, and I'm getting really worried that some day, it's going to be a lot more serious than this.

4) Where were the dig cams? Six decked-out trannys scaring off the alpha males? TOO FUNNY!

It sounds like your future sister has some good-quality friends. Most 'queer-bashers' are that way, because they're dealing with 'other issues' internally-this isn't as much of a myth as they'd like to believe. People always hate in others what they most despise in themselves.
I'd suggest that you buy your bro a can of pepper-spray, and get him into a self-defense group asap-Transgendered persons (MTF) tend to be gentle and nonviolent, but those who have 'issues' with them tend to be... not gentle. Is he on hormones yet? (this can play hell with moods and judgement until the dosages are stable and the body adapts.)
To find TG friendly self-defense groups, you might want to see about talking to his therapist, or (if he's in a contact group already) talking to some of the support groups in your region. The Police generally can't or won't help people in your brother/soon to be sister's position. Relying on them is a mistake a lot of urban folks make.

For that matter, I would suggest that YOU also need to be involved in self-defense if you aren't already. The Police can investigate after the fact, they're useless for prevention. It won't stop people from picking on your loved one, but it will stop them from being successful in applying violence-and that will probably mitigate the problems in your area a great deal.

No, I'm really not! That's the best thing about it! Both my brothers have a 'thing' for Asian girls...the one likes to date them, and the other likes to dress like them!


When he laughs, is it like "Herman Munster" used to?

Yeah, I don't get that. I doubt they'd approach him that way if he was dressed as a man...seriously, they underestimated the skirt!

Then he should move to Scotland. Sure, it's cold, wet, miserable, and has a tendancy to be a little bit ned-infested (that is, when you stroll into the wrong places), but the national dress IS a type of skirt! Although, with the cold, wet, and miserable, you need to be of a particularly hardy nature. Like me. That was a cooold night, I tell you.

Those bigots. They need to get over their prejudice.


They are more than bigots-they are criminals. They assaulted someone. Its probably not the first time.

My best friend's "Aunt" use to be an Uncle.

I think anyone who goes thru with having a sex change is a vwery strong person and I admire that... On the other hand, I do not see myself falling in love with man who use to be a woman... Not my thing. But then again... Still could happen.

Either way... I don't really have a problem with it.

Mattathias

When he laughs, is it like "Herman Munster" used to?
*kicks CL's arse*

My best friend's "Aunt" use to be an Uncle.

I think anyone who goes thru with having a sex change is a vwery strong person and I admire that... On the other hand, I do not see myself falling in love with man who use to be a woman... Not my thing. But then again... Still could happen.

Either way... I don't really have a problem with it.

Mattathias
Oddly enough, I don't think my brother is gay. So, if he ever actually has the surgery to become a woman, he'll actually be a lesbian. Brings new meaning to the silly claim, "I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body!"

*kicks CL's arse*



MMmmmmmm...kicking.... Oh-no, that was for your "kinky" thread.

MMmmmmmm...kicking.... Oh-no, that was for your "kinky" thread.
Every thread can conceivably become my kinky thread :fluffle:

1) If you really hate gay people and transgendered/transsexuals so much, why don't you try your best to avoid them?

I don't, unless they act gay to me, then I run for the hills

2) Just because a guy is in a skirt, doesn't mean he 'fights like a girl'.

Very true

3) I'm very, very glad my brother didn't get hurt this time, and I'm getting really worried that some day, it's going to be a lot more serious than this.

Never go out after sundown, the evil darkness falls witch will get you :mad: :headbang:

4) Where were the dig cams? Six decked-out trannys scaring off the alpha males? TOO FUNNY!

Please tell me you got this on tape!

Oddly enough, I don't think my brother is gay. So, if he ever actually has the surgery to become a woman, he'll actually be a lesbian. Brings new meaning to the silly claim, "I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body!"


I'm so confused now. It used to be, you could tell what it was by lifting the tail. I might start questioning myself.

Every thread can conceivably become my kinky thread :fluffle:


Wooof!

Wooof!
I'm sorry...but are you barking like a dog? Because that just doesn't do it for me! :D

Personally, I believe being male or female is a biological thing. I think the human mind is too complicated to be described by either "male" or "female".

It's like saying "hey, that girl wears trousers and not a dress - she must have a male mind" - no she's just a girl who likes wearing a dress.

As for trans people, I have nothing against them, and think they should be able to dress however they like, or have surgery or whatever. But I consider "male" and "female" to be biological descriptions. They always were in the past, it's just nowadays, people have decided that they should mean something different.

Maybe they're too unimaginative to make up new words. I don't know. It's like saying "age is not a biological trait! I may have the body of a 14 year old but I'm actually 56, now serve me alcohol you bigot!"

Personally, I believe being male or female is a biological thing. I think the human mind is too complicated to be described by either "male" or "female".

It's like saying "hey, that girl wears trousers and not a dress - she must have a male mind" - no she's just a girl who likes wearing a dress.

As for trans people, I have nothing against them, and think they should be able to dress however they like, or have surgery or whatever. But I consider "male" and "female" to be biological descriptions. They always were in the past, it's just nowadays, people have decided that they should mean something different.
how about people with XY chromosones who are born as biological females?

kind of wrecks the idea of sex and gender being rigidly male and female doesnt it?

Maybe they're too unimaginative to make up new words. I don't know. It's like saying "age is not a biological trait! I may have the body of a 14 year old but I'm actually 56, now serve me alcohol you bigot!"
no, its nothing like that.


anyway, Sin, youre brother is very lucky he was able to stand up for himself, in that situation i would have been incredibely screwed. Im pretty much resigned to the fact that im going to take at least one serious beating just for trying to be happy.

I'm sorry...but are you barking like a dog? Because that just doesn't do it for me! :D


We're both married,Sinuhue. I'm not looking to do anything for you. You'd probably go for the howling and biting though.

When I was younger, I had a Malamute that,when happy or anticipating something good, he would tremble a little and look me in the eye and give me a low "woof!" and maybe swat me with his hand sized paw.
I miss that.

Personally, I believe being male or female is a biological thing. I think the human mind is too complicated to be described by either "male" or "female".

Interestingly enough, biological sex can be just as ambiguous as gender is. How do we define biological sex? By genitalia? What if the genitalia are ambiguous? By chromosomes? What are those with Turner's syndrome? What are chimeras? What about those with CAIS, who are XY, but have female genitalia?

We're both married,Sinuhue. I'm not looking to do anything for you. *pouts*

When I was younger, I had a Malamute that,when happy or anticipating something good, he would tremble a little and look me in the eye and give me a low "woof!" and maybe swat me with his hand sized paw.
I miss that.
Hmmmm...I'll refrain from analysis!

*pouts*


Hmmmm...I'll refrain from analysis!


Sorry... I dont think you'd be ready anyway. I'm at least 1/2 animal. You'd be savaged-licked and bitten from head to toe.

This is the wrong thread still-isnt it?

how about people with XY chromosones who are born as biological females?
They have a problem that prevents them from handling testosterone. If I recall correctly, they never go through female puberty.

kind of wrecks the idea of sex and gender being rigidly male and female doesnt it?

I don't care. That's not what I was posting about. Whether male/female is too restrictive is irrelevant. They'd be too restrictive to biology - the thing they describe. Apart from the effects of male and female hormones (again, biological) what actually makes a mind male or female? Could you say "that mind's male" or "that mind's female" - no because the mind isn't like that. It's stereotyping surely?

no, its nothing like that.
Great argument. Your well constructed list of points has changed my opinion.

I don't care. That's not what I was posting about. Whether male/female is too restrictive is irrelevant. They'd be too restrictive to biology - the thing they describe. Apart from the effects of male and female hormones (again, biological) what actually makes a mind male or female? Could you say "that mind's male" or "that mind's female" - no because the mind isn't like that. It's stereotyping surely?

no...the brain is a biological organ, and many studies have shown there to be subtle differences between male and female brains


Great argument. Your well constructed list of points has changed my opinion.
well, to be fair, thats all that needed to be said. its a completely different situation.

no...the brain is a biological organ, and many studies have shown there to be subtle differences between male and female brains

Ok, but have any studies shown that m2f trans have female brains or vice versa?

Ok, but have any studies shown that m2f trans have female brains or vice versa?
several, i believe.

well, to be fair, thats all that needed to be said. its a completely different situation.
Yup.

"Hey, isn't being Native just like being a clerk at a gas-station that has to wear a loud pink uniform?"

"Um...no...not at all really..."

"Oh yeah? Prove it!"

:D

several, i believe.

Interesting.

They have a problem that prevents them from handling testosterone. If I recall correctly, they never go through female puberty.

That all depends on hormone treatments. They can develop breasts and pubic hair, etc. - they simply won't menstruate. They certainly don't fit into a single biological sex - they have characteristics of both.

And we still haven't covered chimeras, which may be part biologically male and part biologically female. We still haven't covered those with Turner's, who are XO - technically neither "standard" biological sex, but who may have some cells that are XY or XX or any other combination. What about Klinefelter's syndrome? XXY, XXXY, etc. - often develop sex traits of both males and females.

The point is that there is nothing cut and dry here. The entire idea is ambiguous and leaves itself open to exceptions.

I don't care. That's not what I was posting about. Whether male/female is too restrictive is irrelevant. They'd be too restrictive to biology - the thing they describe.

You don't care that what you are posting about is entirely irrelevant? Ok.

Apart from the effects of male and female hormones (again, biological) what actually makes a mind male or female? Could you say "that mind's male" or "that mind's female" - no because the mind isn't like that. It's stereotyping surely?

Societal constructs - mostly. People fit in more with the male or female types society has constructed. Is it stereotyping? Of course! That's why people are trying to break out of the molds.

1) If you really hate gay people and transgendered/transsexuals so much, why don't you try your best to avoid them?

2) Just because a guy is in a skirt, doesn't mean he 'fights like a girl'.

3) I'm very, very glad my brother didn't get hurt this time, and I'm getting really worried that some day, it's going to be a lot more serious than this.

4) Where were the dig cams? Six decked-out trannys scaring off the alpha males? TOO FUNNY!
Well, I certainly am far from hating them.
Certainly not.
I hope nothing bad happens, sweetie.
That would have been amazing!

how many men do you know have breasts and a vagina?

I've met three who have undergone surgery to simulate female sexual characteristics. So, I suppose the answer is technically 0, or three who have fake female bits bolted on.

By "met" I mean "had to deal with over an extended period of weeks or months in work or social settings" as opposed to "passed on the street".

One of them even went from being Joe to Josephine during that time... but he's still a man in my book, regardless of what his personal image and cosmetic surgery allow him to believe about himself.

That he feels better about himself like that is cool. That other people are expected to buy into it is not cool at all.

I've met three who have undergone surgery to simulate female sexual characteristics. So, I suppose the answer is technically 0, or three who have fake female bits bolted on.

By "met" I mean "had to deal with over an extended period of weeks or months in work or social settings" as opposed to "passed on the street".

One of them even went from being Joe to Josephine during that time... but he's still a man in my book, regardless of what his personal image and cosmetic surgery allow him to believe about himself.

That he feels better about himself like that is cool. That other people are expected to buy into it is not cool at all.


Actually, you'll find the breasts are 100% natural, except if they elect to have implants, and women do that too, you know.

But allow me to ask you a question, that I have asked before.

Name one thing that makes that person a man. They have not got the genitals, the gender identity as male... the only thing is chromosones, and they are highly variant. Not all men have XY, and not all women are XX.


And, I'll ask again. Your argument so far is "Deal with it."

Why don't you?

Without exception, gaybashers are only trying to "destroy" an exterior manifestation of their own homoerotic desires.

Without exception...

Then they go home and beat off thinking about it. Sex and violence are intimately connected.

Gaybashers are far more homo than the typical guy who just shrugs and thinks "Live, let live."

That he feels better about himself like that is cool. That other people are expected to buy into it is not cool at all.
No, that you expect NO ONE to buy into it is what is 'not cool'. Some people have absolutely no problem with it. If you are not one of those people, that's fine. Go ahead and use the pronoun 'he'...go ahead and think of this person as male...but don't think that if this person gets offended and doesn't want you around any more that it's HER problem. It isn't. It's yours.

<snip>
(To play Devil's Advocate, and to paraphrase Germaine Greer)
The womb and ovaries which allow women to create children, something unique to their gender are irrelevant? Is all it takes to make a woman a third orifice? That's it?

If a person thinks they are fat when they are not we say they are wrong and need psychological treatment(Body Dismorphia Disorder). Why do we then assume that someone who thinks they have the wrong genitals are right and need surgery?

(To play Devil's Advocate, and to paraphrase Germaine Greer)
The womb and ovaries which allow women to create children, something unique to their gender are irrelevant? Is all it takes to make a woman a third orifice? That's it?

so a woman who has a hysterectomy is no longer a woman?

In regards to Dorkium's post and subsequent replies:

Even though I have my own opinions of which is right, but part of the reason why both sides may be butting heads is that you're talking about two different things. "Sex" in this case refers to the presence of reproductive anatomy. "Gender" refers to the presence of a psychological identity pinpointing where one belongs in the "male vs. female" scheme of things. Both aspects are much more complicated than "male" versus "female", and no one has determined which is the more prominent factor in deciding who is "a man" and who is "a woman".

Lin
Credentials: May 2005 Bachelor of Science in Psychology, Northern Kentucky University; Received "A" in Psychology of Human Sexuality

P.S. Sinuhue - glad to hear your brother is doing well. May he kick further butt in the future. :)

so a woman who has a hysterectomy is no longer a woman?
And a woman born with no functional ovaries is automatically male?

(To play Devil's Advocate, and to paraphrase Germaine Greer)
The womb and ovaries which allow women to create children, something unique to their gender are irrelevant? Is all it takes to make a woman a third orifice? That's it?

If a person thinks they are fat when they are not we say they are wrong and need psychological treatment(Body Dismorphia Disorder). Why do we then assume that someone who thinks they have the wrong genitals are right and need surgery?
And pray tell...where do intersexed people fit in? Who decides what gender they end up being?

In regards to Dorkium's post and subsequent replies:

Even though I have my own opinions of which is right, but part of the reason why both sides may be butting heads is that you're talking about two different things. "Sex" in this case refers to the presence of reproductive anatomy. "Gender" refers to the presence of a psychological identity pinpointing where one belongs in the "male vs. female" scheme of things. Both aspects are much more complicated than "male" versus "female", and no one has determined which is the more prominent factor in deciding who is "a man" and who is "a woman".

DING DING DING! We have a winner!

This is exactly the point. Neither gender identity nor sexual identity are cut and dried. And if the form says, GENDER, MALE OR FEMALE, is it REALLY asking for gender identity, or sexual identity? And if you don't fit into either of those categories properly...then what?

so a woman who has a hysterectomy is no longer a woman?
No, but a man who never had any major female organs doesn't become a woman because of a new orifice.
And a woman born with no functional ovaries is automatically male?
So, I say the removal of male genitals does not actually make you a woman and you interpret that as partially damaged genitals change your gender? How did you make that leap?

No, but a man who never had any major female organs doesn't become a woman because of a new orifice.

So, I say the removal of male genitals does not actually make you a woman and you interpret that as partially damaged genitals change your gender? How did you make that leap?
but if you saw a transexual woman walking down the street, in most cases you wouldnt have any idea that she had ever been anything other than physically female

natural breasts, a vagina that looks and functions like a natural vagina....how would you ever know?

as far as you are concerned, she is a woman. if she turned around and told you she was a transexual would you suddenly started calling her "him"?

No, but a man who never had any major female organs doesn't become a woman because of a new orifice.
So you are defining gender based on sexual identity only?

So, I say the removal of male genitals does not actually make you a woman and you interpret that as partially damaged genitals change your gender? How did you make that leap?
Because I wonder...if gentitals define gender for you, then what good are non-functioning genitals? Is it merely the presence of gentials that make someone male or female? If a woman is born without all the 'right parts'...can she still be defined as female?

but if you saw a transexual woman walking down the street, in most cases you wouldnt have any idea that she had ever been anything other than physically female

natural breasts, a vagina that looks and functions like a natural vagina....how would you ever know?

as far as you are concerned, she is a woman. if she turned around and told you she was a transexual would you suddenly started calling her "him"?
Never having had the experience, I really can't say for sure. I would imagine for the sake of convenience I would say not, but I would not continue to think of her as female.

as far as you are concerned, she is a woman. if she turned around and told you she was a transexual would you suddenly started calling her "him"?
And how would you know she was born male? Would you do an ultrasound to look for a womb? Ovaries? What if you found a woman without a womb and ovaries...would you assume she had been born male because of her lack? Do intersexed people need to go around telling everyone, "Hey, I was born with ambiguous genitalia!"...because I'm assuming here that you would want transsexuals to 'fess' up...

And by the way...my posts may read a bit hostile...but I don't intend them to be. I'm actually interested in your answers to these questions...so please don't feel you are being attacked.

<snip>
Because I wonder...if gentitals define gender for you, then what good are non-functioning genitals?Is it merely the presence of gentials that make someone male or female? If a woman is born without all the 'right parts'...can she still be defined as female?
Simply put, this comment makes no sense to me. I honestly cannot see the correlation between someone who is sterile and an individual who has their genitals removed and a simulacrum of different genitals surgically attached.

Never having had the experience, I really can't say for sure. I would imagine for the sake of convenience I would say not, but I would not continue to think of her as female.
OK, what about a female to male transexual?

he has no breasts, he has no ovaries, no womb, no vagina, but he has a penis. he has a beard

still a woman?

you know, even in Iran, that bastion of tolerance, they accept a male to female transexual as being a female.

Simply put, this comment makes no sense to me. I honestly cannot see the correlation between someone who is sterile and an individual who has their genitals removed and a simulacrum of different genitals surgically attached.
The correlation is this...both have non-functioning genitals. One was born that way, one became that way through surgery. If you define sexual identity by having genitalia, then you must define whether or not that genitalia must be functional or not in order to be deemed male or female. If you decide that functional genitalia is not as important as the actual genitalia itself, then you would be able to class the two examples as basically the same, and female. Or, you would have to find another way to define gender...maybe by saying, "You must be BORN with certain genitalia, functioning or non to be male or female".

Then you have the issue of intersexed people...

Simply put, this comment makes no sense to me. I honestly cannot see the correlation between someone who is sterile and an individual who has their genitals removed and a simulacrum of different genitals surgically attached.


What if it all happened as an infant? There are plenty of cases where a child is born with ambiguous genitailia, and the parents and doctors decide that the child is better off being raised as a girl, and the parents have the surgeries before the child is old enough to remember any different.


How about the reverse? The child has some non-functioning female organs, but the parents decide that want a boy. So there are lots of surgeries to build a male organ. He wouldn't know anything other than being a boy, but that maleness is surgically constructed.

And how would you know she was born male? Would you do an ultrasound to look for a womb? Ovaries? What if you found a woman without a womb and ovaries...would you assume she had been born male because of her lack? Do intersexed people need to go around telling everyone, "Hey, I was born with ambiguous genitalia!"...because I'm assuming here that you would want transsexuals to 'fess' up...
Are you talking about a friendship or a romantic relationship?
In terms of friendship I doubt that it would bother me, but as I said I have never had the experience so I can't say for sure. With that perspective I would not care if they told me or not.
In a romantic relationship I would interpret it as deception and I am somewhat merciless as regards personal relationships.

OK, what about a female to male transexual?

he has no breasts, he has no ovaries, no womb, no vagina, but he has a penis. he has a beard

still a woman?
My instinctive response to someone with their genitals removed is to think of them as an 'it'. Not an 'it' as in non-human, but 'it' as in gender neutral. I would not think of them as 'men' or 'women' because to me those are gendered terms which are not accurate. Obviously I would not speak of them as 'it' because it is too open to misinterpretation.
you know, even in Iran, that bastion of tolerance, they accept a male to female transexual as being a female.
OK. So?

My instinctive response to someone with their genitals removed is to think of them as an 'it'. Not an 'it' as in non-human, but 'it' as in gender neutral. I would not think of them as 'men' or 'women' because to me those are gendered terms which are not accurate. Obviously I would not speak of them as 'it' because it is too open to misinterpretation.


Again...if someone is born intersexed, with ambiguous genitalia...would they be an 'it' as well? Can someone REALLY be gender neutral, based solely on their parts?

Do you not consider gender to at all be a social construct as well? A person with their genitalia removed, or with genitalia that is neither fully male nor female...would they have no gendered characteristics at all? Is that even possible?

Sinuhue,

After thinking about it I can see considering transgendered persons as gender neutral, not because of their genitalia or other sex characteristics, but because we don't really have a social construct with regards to their gender.

Are they to be treated as women? men? something all together differant? In the U.S., and possibly the western world, we have only recongnized two genders, men and women, I don't think we have a conception of a third gender. Hence, for the time being, transgendered persons have no gender.

Sinuhue,

After thinking about it I can see considering transgendered persons as gender neutral, not because of their genitalia or other sex characteristics, but because we don't really have a social construct with regards to their gender.

Are they to be treated as women? men? something all together differant? In the U.S., and possibly the western world, we have only recongnized two genders, men and women, I don't think we have a conception of a third gender. Hence, for the time being, transgendered persons have no gender.
yes we do thats the whole problem...that gender is seperate from sex, and gender can be different to sex.

yes we do thats the whole problem...that gender is seperate from sex, and gender can be different to sex.

Yes, I know that, what I'm saying we don't have a construct with regards to transgendered persons. If we did, why is there such disagreement over it?

Yes, I know that, what I'm saying we don't have a construct with regards to transgendered persons. If we did, why is there such disagreement over it?
yes we do, thats what im saying

transgendered people still fit into one of the two genders, it just happens that our gender (psychological) is different from our sex (physical)

And by the way...my posts may read a bit hostile...but I don't intend them to be. I'm actually interested in your answers to these questions...so please don't feel you are being attacked.

Sorry Sinhue, although I agree with most your saying, I certainly hate it when people say "I didn't mean to"..which somehow makes it okay (but, it's very mild and understandable hostility).....how can someones opinion be wrong?

Seems to me too many people need to be put into some kind of group (trans, straight, gay..whatever) People seem to have an over-inflated sense of self importance. No one cares what you are, why are people so concerend how others view them? To me, they're human beings, some are idiots some are exhibitionists some are decent people. Special treatment for no one.

yes we do, thats what im saying

transgendered people still fit into one of the two genders, it just happens that our gender (psychological) is different from our sex (physical)

I am not so sure that people will be willing to fit transgendered people into one category or another. We would need some kind of study to tell us either way.

I am not so sure that people will be willing to fit transgendered people into one category or another. We would need some kind of study to tell us either way.
if someone cant accept it, then thats their problem, not the transgendered persons problem.

if someone cant accept it, then thats their problem, not the transgendered persons problem.

What?

This isn't about tolerance. It is about whether or not our society has a pre-constructed gender, including responcibilities and roles, for transgendered persons. I say it doesn't, you say we just lump them into one of the two we have, and I say to show that we need a committed study of the subject.

Nope, nothing to do with tolerance.

What?

This isn't about tolerance. It is about whether or not our society has a pre-constructed gender, including responcibilities and roles, for transgendered persons. I say it doesn't, you say we just lump them into one of the two we have, and I say to show that we need a committed study of the subject.

Nope, nothing to do with tolerance.
ah, see you dont understand

transgendered people dont have a seperate gender identity for one good reason; their gender is either male or female

i dont really know how else to put it, im just telling you how it is.

ah, see you dont understand

transgendered people dont have a seperate gender identity for one good reason; their gender is either male or female

i dont really know how else to put it, im just telling you how it is.

Ok. This had to have been covered before.

Sex: Biological. The prescence of male/female primary and secondary sex organs/characteristics.

Gender: Social, cultural. The roles created by a culture with regards, but not limited, to biological sex.

Example of a third gender. The hijra of India who are men that choose to worship the mother goddess who only accepts female worshippers. These men undertake several rituals, including castrataion, to be transformed into hijra. The hijra are not men or women, they are a recongnized third gender with thier own specfic roles and identity.

Western culture, to my knowledge, has no such recongnized third gender.

Ok. This had to have been covered before.

Sex: Biological. The prescence of male/female primary and secondary sex organs/characteristics.

Gender: Social, cultural. The roles created by a culture with regards, but not limited, to biological sex.
yes, i am fully aware of those. someone in my position would need to be, really.

Example of a third gender. The hijra of India who are men that choose to worship the mother goddess who only accepts female worshippers. These men undertake several rituals, including castrataion, to be transformed into hijra. The hijra are not men or women, they are a recongnized third gender with thier own specfic roles and identity.

Western culture, to my knowledge, has no such recongnized third gender.
western culture has no recognised third gender because there is no need for one. simple as.

transgendered people arent some sort of mystical third gender, our gender is male or female, the only thing is that it is different from our sex.

Ok. This had to have been covered before.

Sex: Biological. The prescence of male/female primary and secondary sex organs/characteristics.

Gender: Social, cultural. The roles created by a culture with regards, but not limited, to biological sex.

Example of a third gender. The hijra of India who are men that choose to worship the mother goddess who only accepts female worshippers. These men undertake several rituals, including castrataion, to be transformed into hijra. The hijra are not men or women, they are a recongnized third gender with thier own specfic roles and identity.

Western culture, to my knowledge, has no such recongnized third gender.


However, this assumes that the transgendered person WANTS to be identified as a third gender. After spending most of their life fighting to be recognised as the one they want, I'm fairly sure they won't settle for Androgyne or something. Doubtless they will still fight to be recognised as their chosen gender. This is a matter for the transgendered "community" to decide, and nobody else.


Since western culture has no such third gender, then it would be foolish to create one for people who DON'T want it. If there is a significant portion of people who feel they are more androgynous, in regards to gender, then the third option would be relevant. Since this is not the topic for discussion, we can assume, for now, they don't.

Regardless, the point of creating a third gender for transgenders is both foolish and doomed to failure from the outset.

Nadkor and Jordaxia,

I am not advocating the creation of a third gender, nor am I suggesting that "transgendered" is a gender. I am just saying there isn't a third gender that is why some people may view transgendered persons as gender neutral.

Nadkor and Jordaxia,

I am not advocating the creation of a third gender, nor am I suggesting that "transgendered" is a gender. I am just saying there isn't a third gender that is why some people may view transgendered persons as gender neutral.
and like i said, that is entirely the fault of the person who cant accept transgendered people as one gender or the other, and should have absolutely no bearing on whether their should be a "third" gender or not. which i think there shouldnt be, because i sure as hell dont feel part of any third gender.

It seems then that you agree there is no third gender. And if that is the case I don't think we are really disagreeing on anything.

It seems then that you agree there is no third gender. And if that is the case I don't think we are really disagreeing on anything.
oh ok. i thought you were saying there should be a third gender.

That would have been priceless to see! It is about time someone taught those straight boys alesson and whooped up on their arses!

rapcpsmo@adelphia.net

Sinuhue,

After thinking about it I can see considering transgendered persons as gender neutral, not because of their genitalia or other sex characteristics, but because we don't really have a social construct with regards to their gender.

Are they to be treated as women? men? something all together differant? In the U.S., and possibly the western world, we have only recongnized two genders, men and women, I don't think we have a conception of a third gender. Hence, for the time being, transgendered persons have no gender.
I honestly don't think it is possible to have 'no' gender. We are gendered from birth. We are expected to do certain things because of our sex. When we refuse that, when we discard gender roles, that still does not mean we have no gender. When we feel that despite our sex, we belong to the opposite gender, that does not make us gender neutral. Gender neutral would suggest that we have neither male, nor female characteristics.

However, I do agree that transgendered people are a 'third' gender. I'm fairly certain that some countries (Brazil among them...is this right, Alien Born?) actually allow for three genders. Many nations consider transsexuals to actually belong legally to the gender they have undergone surgery to become.

So, neither wholly male nor female...but not gender neutral.

Yes, I know that, what I'm saying we don't have a construct with regards to transgendered persons. If we did, why is there such disagreement over it?
My people used to have a construct for transgendered peoples. They were named two-spirited, and were considered to have aspects of both genders within them. Many cultures have social constructs for such people, historically and contemporarily. There is such disagreement, because as with all things that people hold strong views on, there are those who choose to deny (using tradition, religion, or science) and those who choose to advocate (using tradition, religion or science). What we can not deny is the existence of these people. What we fight about is how to label them, how to 'fit them in', how to 'deal' with them.

Sorry Sinhue, although I agree with most your saying, I certainly hate it when people say "I didn't mean to"..which somehow makes it okay (but, it's very mild and understandable hostility).....how can someones opinion be wrong?Perhaps you misunderstood. You see, I've recently been slapped down for a (admittedly inappropriate comment) that was taken out of context. In a text based conversation, intent is difficult to ascertain. I hate it when people say, "I don't mean to *insert what they are actually going to do* but..."...and that was not my intention. My intention was to make VERY clear that if it seems as though I am reacting hostilely, that is in fact, NOT the case. It may read that way, but that's part of the limitation of this medium.

Seems to me too many people need to be put into some kind of group (trans, straight, gay..whatever) People seem to have an over-inflated sense of self importance. No one cares what you are, why are people so concerend how others view them? To me, they're human beings, some are idiots some are exhibitionists some are decent people. Special treatment for no one.You are wrong. People care very much what you are. If they didn't, there wouldn't be such pressure for those who don't 'fit' to assimilate. Do you really think that pressure is just coming from inside?

Why should we need to create a 'third gender' or consider someone as gender neutral or whatever?

Why do we place so much emphasis on clearly defining someone as 'male' or 'female' surely in a culture where we (in theory) strive for equality of treatment and rights (debatable for some I know but this is my personal belief) someones sex or gender become entirely irrelevant to any but their personal feelings and interactions. Thus one may be attracted to a specific 'type' of person 'male/female/blonde/whatever' but that persons 'type' has no interplay with anything beyond their personal interactions. The wider society should treat them just the same no matter what their personal characteristics, just as should the state. If we consider ourselves to be fully liberal moralists (in the traditional sense of the term not the bastardised version used by the american left) then surely someones sex is indeed irrelevant?

Why should we need to classify someone as 'male' or 'female' and do these classifications have any intrinsic merit. The social roles that persons who identify as a particular gender are entirely socially constructed, we are already seeing women who work, men who raise children, and further blurring of traditional sexual division of labour and roles, thus if this process is to continue, as I believe it should, surely the acceptance of an individuals personal freedom to ascribe to either of these roles is essentially irrelevant to all bar their personal identification.

I have yet to resolve the theoretical possibility that transgenderism is infact entirely socially constructed and that biological factors are merely indicators of a certain tendancy towards certain characteristics. My arguement along these lines progresses that were gender roles and identities not so rigidly defined and enforced then individuals who felt they deviated from one would have less need or desire to alter themselves to a point where they felt comfortable fulfilling a different role. Thus with the removal of such social constructions as gender roles and identities we would reach a point where men with female characteristics (or vice versa/any combination) would be comfortable and accepted as simply that.

However even if studies (possibly the source of my next project) do suggest this hypothesis to be possible, the choice to alter ones own body however one see's fit remains entirely personal having no effect on anything bar the individual concerned and thus should be available as an option to any who choose it. I merely suggest that that choice would be made less often by many if our enforcement and definitions of 'gender' and 'sex' and the sterotyped traditional 'roles and responsibilities' that go with such socail constructs continue to be broken down.
__________________________________

on a personal note I am saddened to hear of your 'brothers' attack Sinuhue and wish you to convey (whatever this may mean to 'him') my good wishes and solidarity.
[gah with the pronouns, whole load of applicable Foucault theory at this stage but will leave it out]

So, neither wholly male nor female...but not gender neutral.

Sorry, I was unclear in my first post. I didn't mean that the transgendered person would be without a gender as he/she saw it but that others would view transgendered persons as gender neutral where there was no third gender available. Not that they have to, but I can see why they might.

What?

This isn't about tolerance. It is about whether or not our society has a pre-constructed gender, including responcibilities and roles, for transgendered persons. I say it doesn't, you say we just lump them into one of the two we have, and I say to show that we need a committed study of the subject.

Nope, nothing to do with tolerance.
What would this study be looking for?

And it is all about tolerance. You want a study to validate something. We are saying, your need for validation is your problem. If you can't accept something without totally understanding it, that is okay. But you can't say, "This is wrong, or doesn't fit because I don't understand it".

oh ok. i thought you were saying there should be a third gender.
Just catching up here...so it seems that there isn't really a disagreement on this point right now?

I honestly don't think it is possible to have 'no' gender. We are gendered from birth. We are expected to do certain things because of our sex. When we refuse that, when we discard gender roles, that still does not mean we have no gender. When we feel that despite our sex, we belong to the opposite gender, that does not make us gender neutral. Gender neutral would suggest that we have neither male, nor female characteristics.

However, I do agree that transgendered people are a 'third' gender. I'm fairly certain that some countries (Brazil among them...is this right, Alien Born?) actually allow for three genders. Many nations consider transsexuals to actually belong legally to the gender they have undergone surgery to become.

So, neither wholly male nor female...but not gender neutral.



Huh. I'm agreeing and disagreeing with you here.

I won't deny that I have elements of the male gender about me, an 18 year upbringing is bound to leave that kind of mark on you. However, I would say that what one could consider defining, either individually or en masse, that they are at odds with who I consider myself to be. If someone asks me which gender I see myself as, I think "female" more than I think "bit o'both" any day of the week. of course, depending on who I'm talking to may necessitate a different answer but it isn't the point.

Two spirited sounds cool and all, but it still doesn't truly represent how I feel about myself.

LiazFaire, you might be onto something if I didn't also feel that my body is wrong. it's both a mental gender, and a want to correct the physical sex.

I have yet to resolve the theoretical possibility that transgenderism is infact entirely socially constructed and that biological factors are merely indicators of a certain tendancy towards certain characteristics. My arguement along these lines progresses that were gender roles and identities not so rigidly defined and enforced then individuals who felt they deviated from one would have less need or desire to alter themselves to a point where they felt comfortable fulfilling a different role. Thus with the removal of such social constructions as gender roles and identities we would reach a point where men with female characteristics (or vice versa/any combination) would be comfortable and accepted as simply that.

This is something I've often considered. I suspect it may be true as well...but the possibility of a society free of binding gender roles seems an impossibility in my lifetime at least...so I suspect I'll never know for sure.

this thread is moving so fast that I'm having difficulty keeping up in between posting my own replys!

Buddism makes not so much a place for a 'third gender' but rather simply accepts people for how they are. The concept of karmic reincarnation allows that all things are reborn in new forms and conditions as part of a spiritual testing, and it is our behaviour that allows us to move on to a higher level. Thus if people are reborn feeling transgendered there is no stigmata attached to this it is merely a part of their karmic cycle. I personally really quite like the idea as it removes the idea that there is a 'right' or 'normal' way of being, there is only how we are, and that is accepted. Unfortunately the Thai govournment isn't quite as based on the religion as many of its people so although there is more tolerance of the phenomenon there are still legal complications with certain aspects etc. The reason the 'ladyboys of bangkok' are such a widespread phenomenon is that entertainment is one of the few industry's where there is no complications of this type.

(not sure if the state *should* be based upon any religion even one as tolerant as buddism, but thats a different discussion)

I'm so confused...

I'm just going to summarize my statements one more time as clear as I possibly can.

1) There is no third gender in the U.S., and possibly all of Western culture.

2) Given that I can see why people will consider transgendered persons as gender neutral.

3) I do not advocate this. I do not advocate the creation of a third gender. I am merely saying I can see why there is such confusion because we have no established category.

Huh. I'm agreeing and disagreeing with you here.

I won't deny that I have elements of the male gender about me, an 18 year upbringing is bound to leave that kind of mark on you. However, I would say that what one could consider defining, either individually or en masse, that they are at odds with who I consider myself to be. If someone asks me which gender I see myself as, I think "female" more than I think "bit o'both" any day of the week. of course, depending on who I'm talking to may necessitate a different answer but it isn't the point.

Two spirited sounds cool and all, but it still doesn't truly represent how I feel about myself.

LiazFaire, you might be onto something if I didn't also feel that my body is wrong. it's both a mental gender, and a want to correct the physical sex.

The two-spirited term was a way of reconciling physical sex with gender identity. So the 'male' spirit might actually be the physical manifestion, while the 'female' spirit would be the gender that person fit into. It didn't mean, half and half gender wise.

I don't really agree with the whole third gender thing either...I was more trying to point out that some cultures have decided to employ one in their dealings with gender. I agree that a transgendered person the opposite gender than their biological sex. However, I think the third gender issue historically has been because there did not exist any sort of way to truly change the physical sex the way there is now.

I have yet to resolve the theoretical possibility that transgenderism is infact entirely socially constructed and that biological factors are merely indicators of a certain tendancy towards certain characteristics. My arguement along these lines progresses that were gender roles and identities not so rigidly defined and enforced then individuals who felt they deviated from one would have less need or desire to alter themselves to a point where they felt comfortable fulfilling a different role. Thus with the removal of such social constructions as gender roles and identities we would reach a point where men with female characteristics (or vice versa/any combination) would be comfortable and accepted as simply that.
its not that though...its something more than that. its a clash of your mental identity with what your body is telling you, and a desire to get it all nicely lined up properly.

I'm so confused...

I'm just going to summarize my statements one more time as clear as I possibly can.

1) There is no third gender in the U.S., and possibly all of Western culture.

2) Given that I can see why people will consider transgendered persons as gender neutral.

3) I do not advocate this. I do not advocate the creation of a third gender. I am merely saying I can see why there is such confusion because we have no established category.
The only issue I have with this is the term 'gender neutral'. For someone to think another person is gender neutral, they would have to have no understanding of what gender is...and I don't think most people are that dense. If they define gender as biological sex, a transgendered person, to them, would be the gender determined by their genitals. If they define gender as a social construct, they would define the transgendered person by their social gender. The only way I could see someone thinking of another person as gender neutral would be if there were no discernable social or physical characteristics that defines them as either more male or more female...like the Pat of Saturday Night Live.

I think the confusion is not in thinking these people have NO gender...but rather the confusion stems from not knowing if sex defines gender, or if gender is a social construct, or a blend of the two.

The two-spirited term was a way of reconciling physical sex with gender identity. So the 'male' spirit might actually be the physical manifestion, while the 'female' spirit would be the gender that person fit into. It didn't mean, half and half gender wise.

I don't really agree with the whole third gender thing either...I was more trying to point out that some cultures have decided to employ one in their dealings with gender. I agree that a transgendered person the opposite gender than their biological sex. However, I think the third gender issue historically has been because there did not exist any sort of way to truly change the physical sex the way there is now.


Ah, gotcha. Why don't you make it simple like the pre-republic romans! Whack it off, fling the recently detatched member into chosen families house, big ceremony, there you go, you crazy cultist you.

That worked quite nicely, with no ambiguity. :D

The wonders of mistranslation had foiled me again. danke for clearing that up.

LiazFaire, you might be onto something if I didn't also feel that my body is wrong. it's both a mental gender, and a want to correct the physical sex.

And as I mentioned this is an entirely personal issue that nobody else should have any say in. I merely wonder how much of that 'gender' is socially constructed and how much of your 'feeling wrong' is a result of societies, current, inability to cope with your percieved variation from the 'norm'. Thus perhaps were society more tolerant of your personal traits etc, perhaps you would not feel so strongly that your physical body did not match your mental 'gender'.

I'm sorry if this is asking difficult questions about an obviously personal issue, but I'm viewing this as a social psychologist and a philosopher. My underlying belief will always be that you are perfectly entitled to feel and believe however you wish to, and that what you choose to do to your body is entirely your concern. However as a researcher it I am incredibly interested in this area and that necessitates a more impersonal view and having to ask all those really horrible questions. I beg forgiveness, but ask that you, as far as you wish to, aid my understanding.

The only issue I have with this is the term 'gender neutral'. For someone to think another person is gender neutral, they would have to have no understanding of what gender is...and I don't think most people are that dense. If they define gender as biological sex, a transgendered person, to them, would be the gender determined by their genitals. If they define gender as a social construct, they would define the transgendered person by their social gender. The only way I could see someone thinking of another person as gender neutral would be if there were no discernable social or physical characteristics that defines them as either more male or more female...like the Pat of Saturday Night Live.

I think the confusion is not in thinking these people have NO gender...but rather the confusion stems from not knowing if sex defines gender, or if gender is a social construct, or a blend of the two.

bah sod it, get rid of gender concept entirely, its rapidly becomming redundant anyway...

bah sod it, get rid of gender concept entirely, its rapidly becomming redundant anyway...
*waves magic wand*
Done.

If only it were that simple!

And as I mentioned this is an entirely personal issue that nobody else should have any say in. I merely wonder how much of that 'gender' is socially constructed and how much of your 'feeling wrong' is a result of societies, current, inability to cope with your percieved variation from the 'norm'. Thus perhaps were society more tolerant of your personal traits etc, perhaps you would not feel so strongly that your physical body did not match your mental 'gender'.
yea, but even if i could walk around and live entirely as a woman being accepted by everyone as a woman, but keep the male body, i still wouldnt be entirely happy. happier, yes, but i would still look in the mirror and see the male body. its hard to explain.

I'm sorry if this is asking difficult questions about an obviously personal issue, but I'm viewing this as a social psychologist and a philosopher. My underlying belief will always be that you are perfectly entitled to feel and believe however you wish to, and that what you choose to do to your body is entirely your concern. However as a researcher it I am incredibly interested in this area and that necessitates a more impersonal view and having to ask all those really horrible questions. I beg forgiveness, but ask that you, as far as you wish to, aid my understanding.
ask away like, ill be happy to answer questions if i can

I think the confusion is not in thinking these people have NO gender...but rather the confusion stems from not knowing if sex defines gender, or if gender is a social construct, or a blend of the two.

Well... by definition gender is a social construct and sex is a biological determination.

But I do understand the spirit of your arguement, and I do suppose that may be a possible source of confusion.

And as I mentioned this is an entirely personal issue that nobody else should have any say in. I merely wonder how much of that 'gender' is socially constructed and how much of your 'feeling wrong' is a result of societies, current, inability to cope with your percieved variation from the 'norm'. Thus perhaps were society more tolerant of your personal traits etc, perhaps you would not feel so strongly that your physical body did not match your mental 'gender'.

I'm sorry if this is asking difficult questions about an obviously personal issue, but I'm viewing this as a social psychologist and a philosopher. My underlying belief will always be that you are perfectly entitled to feel and believe however you wish to, and that what you choose to do to your body is entirely your concern. However as a researcher it I am incredibly interested in this area and that necessitates a more impersonal view and having to ask all those really horrible questions. I beg forgiveness, but ask that you, as far as you wish to, aid my understanding.


Never have had any problems with people with questions. I say that every time. I'd put it in my signature if it wasn't cramped and it didn't make me feel like an attention whore.

Unfortunately, I'm VERY pushed for time now, so I'll have to be quick.

LiazFaire, what you say in your first paragraph may well be entirely true. it's the enigma of the condition so much that NOBODY can really say anything about it. it's discord, pure and simple. It's self-diagnosed, which is even worse, nobody can turn around and say that you have Gender dysphoria/GID, you have to decide for yourself. Perhaps if nobody cared, then neither would I, then again, perhaps not. I will use both mine and Sinuhues example though. It used to be, in both Native American, and Ancient European cultures *as well as it seems Indian though I was unaware of that* that transsexuality, or at least the aspect that deals with having a body that is discordant with ones mind, was dealt with. In India and America, with the joining of the third gender. In pre-republic Rome, it was a simple male/female divide. Once you had gone through the process, you were female. Since these places had less of a cultural taboo regarding the whole thing, you would expect that the urge to change the body would be lessened, and there would be less of a divide between the genders. That, is obviously not true, but all societies had their gender roles, and so you cannot get a pure example. it seems to suggest, however, that there is a definite urge to change the shape of the body to match, as best as possible, the mental gender that someone feels.



Sorry it's so jumbled up, but I'm getting off my seat now to go. Hurry hurry and all that.

ask away like, ill be happy to answer questions if i can

just a few that I can think of off the top of my head...

Starting at the begining, as seems to be the usual place

How have you come to the conclusion that your mental 'gender' (i'm going to get so sick of fumbling concepts that just arn't adequate) is female?
- What influenced this conclusion
- What do you define as 'female' and why do you so strongly align yourself as such?
- In what way might this definition of 'female' or indeed 'femininity' affect how you portray your own 'female-ness'

In what way do you feel your 'male' body is 'wrong'?
- Is it simply that it is different from that of 'female' bodies and how you wish to portray your 'femininity'?
- If there were less defined limits of what 'men' are supposed to do, feel, look like, wear, etc do you feel that your feminine identity could be more easilly portrayed and accepted?
- Do you excersise regularly? ie. keep your 'male' body physically healthy despite feeling uncomfortable with that body?
- How does your feeling that this body is 'wrong' affect your behaviours? eg. do you feel uncomfortable if another see's your current body semi/fully nude, how do/would you react if such a situation occurred?
- When not wearing 'female' clothes, do you wear clothes that may accentuate/flatter your 'male' body? Why?

Have you ever, in any way, had medical/scientific 'confirmation' of how you feel about your body? (i'm not sure if this is possible so excuse any ignorance on my part)
- If you were to undergo 'testing' for various 'known' factors involved in such variations in gender/sex etc, how would you feel if the results 'proved' negative, that is if you were told that you had a perfectly 'normal' male body?
- Would such a finding affect your resolution, would you accept it or refute it?
(this one occurred to me in the 'gay gene' thread about fruit fly's, what would *I* do if someone tested me and told me that I was infact 'straight' ie did *not* have the accepted genetic cause of 'gayness')
_______________________________

Ok theres a lot of stuff in there, I'll PM you my email address if you like so you don't have to post on the public forums, either that or I think its on my profile so just drop me a line.

_______________________________

Sinuhue, I would be very interested in your 'brothers' response to some of these thoughts also, I would be most gratefull if you could ask him to contact me in some form or if you would forward some of these preliminary questions to him also. Only if he is ok with them of course. I'm gonna have to do a whole *lot* of reading over the next couple of weeks before I can begin to formulate a proper research method and such, but any assistance or knowledge at this stage would be a massive help to me.

Damn my tutor's gonna kick me when she hears about this....

I'm just going to point out a few things here...I understand that you would like to learn more about this issue, but there are some loaded questions here:


How have you come to the conclusion that your mental 'gender' (i'm going to get so sick of fumbling concepts that just arn't adequate) is female?
- What influenced this conclusion
- What do you define as 'female' and why do you so strongly align yourself as such?
- In what way might this definition of 'female' or indeed 'femininity' affect how you portray your own 'female-ness'

When do any of us understand what our mental gender is? We get early on that boys have these parts, and girls have those...but when do we become AWARE of the social differences between males and females? It can vary. If you have very gender-conscious peers or parents, you soon learn which mould you are supposed to fit into. Still, you may not truly understand how you feel about this mould until later on in life. I'm not really sure when I knew I was 'female'...so I can't really compare it to when my brother realised he was.

What I define as female is mostly what I have been taught is female. This idea has changed over the years as I reject gender roles. I think both my brother and I have pretty similar ideas on what 'female' is, because we come from the same culture and same family.



Sinuhue, I would be very interested in your 'brothers' response to some of these thoughts also, I would be most gratefull if you could ask him to contact me in some form or if you would forward some of these preliminary questions to him also. I can pretty much guarantee he would resent the implication that he is being researched. He can be a real bitch when he wants to be:) and he's notoriously antisocial...so, I'm going to have to decline. Sorry! :p

Ok I can see your point on the research thing, hence why I am trying to be tentative, but at the same time, if we are ever to increase our understanding then 'research' needs to be done. Thanks anyway though.


My points on definition and realisation of 'female-ness' or the construction of a 'female' identity are indeed loaded questions, their loaded with an instrinsic scepticism that such a thing as a 'female' identity truly exists, or for that matter a 'male' idenitity (purely by proxy). Such a notion unnerves me (how can one define oneself as 'gay' if we fundamentally doubt the nature of gender?) I can see why it would be even more difficult for persons who's own identity is being fundamentally questioned, let alone anyone elses.

Hence why I am entirely understanding if someone doesn't wish to help me in this area, lifes difficult enough without someone asking annoying and awkward questions all the time. Especially when those questions are constructed and being asked by an amature with little understanding of the issues involved. Again I can only apologise.

Hence why I am entirely understanding if someone doesn't wish to help me in this area, lifes difficult enough without someone asking annoying and awkward questions all the time. Especially when those questions are constructed and being asked by an amature with little understanding of the issues involved. Again I can only apologise.
But it is good to discuss it...it highlights how uncertain we really are about things like gender and sexuality absolutes. We have to work with the definitions we have, but we recognise that they are entirely inadequate. *shrugs*...bless you for caring though...

I bet, that aside from chromosones, there'd be not one single male thing about him, if he went the whole way through with it.

What with having both a female body and brain and all. Where does the guy part feature?

Because it's the outside that matters... making yourself look like a girl will make you into one!

just a few that I can think of off the top of my head...

Starting at the begining, as seems to be the usual place

How have you come to the conclusion that your mental 'gender' (i'm going to get so sick of fumbling concepts that just arn't adequate) is female?
I dont know, its just something i've always felt - even when i didnt know what gender was, when i didnt know why someone was called a girl and someone was called a boy. I remember when I was about 5 telling someone i wasnt a boy, i was a girl, and then being told off by my parents for saying that.

- What influenced this conclusion
I dont honestly know. its not something i one day decided "right, from now on im going to be female", its just something that...is. i dont know why.

- What do you define as 'female' and why do you so strongly align yourself as such?
as above...i dont know what is female, or what is male, i just know that whatever male is i am not "it"....if you follow. probably not, but thats the best i can put it

- In what way might this definition of 'female' or indeed 'femininity' affect how you portray your own 'female-ness'
I wouldnt try to follow any social stereotypes of a female, i would just be myself.

In what way do you feel your 'male' body is 'wrong'?
it just is, it doesnt fit with me. its like...from as early as i can remember ive known something about my body didnt fit with my person. i just tried to get on with things for as long as possible, but once puberty got well under way, the problem just became ridiculous. I wanted to be growing breasts, not a beard

- Is it simply that it is different from that of 'female' bodies and how you wish to portray your 'femininity'?
its a bit like that, but at the same time...not. i suppose one small aspect could be said to be me not wanting to have to keep up this pretence and act of being 'male'. but i wouldnt say that was that important a factor

- If there were less defined limits of what 'men' are supposed to do, feel, look like, wear, etc do you feel that your feminine identity could be more easilly portrayed and accepted?
oh im sure it would be easier portrayed and accepted, but i still wouldnt be happy with my body

- Do you excersise regularly? ie. keep your 'male' body physically healthy despite feeling uncomfortable with that body?
yea, i try to. although i smoke and drink, but i still enjoy exercising a bit, i get bored sitting around all day doing nothing, i have a high metabolism, and i like to be moving as much as possible or i get restless and fidgety. its not out of a desire really to be healthy, its more of a desire to do something.

- How does your feeling that this body is 'wrong' affect your behaviours? eg. do you feel uncomfortable if another see's your current body semi/fully nude, how do/would you react if such a situation occurred?
well, im used to it. obviously its not how i want to be, but right now i cant do anything about it so i just try and get on with it.

- When not wearing 'female' clothes, do you wear clothes that may accentuate/flatter your 'male' body? Why?
jeans and a t-shirt, if that means anything

Have you ever, in any way, had medical/scientific 'confirmation' of how you feel about your body? (i'm not sure if this is possible so excuse any ignorance on my part)
i suppose that would be from a psychologist, but no, ive never seen a psychologist. probably out of finding it very hard to come to terms with myself, and then finding it very difficult to tell anyone i actually know, let alone a random stranger. doesnt really apply on the internet though, everybody is just a screenname.

- If you were to undergo 'testing' for various 'known' factors involved in such variations in gender/sex etc, how would you feel if the results 'proved' negative, that is if you were told that you had a perfectly 'normal' male body?
that would be very difficult for me, but i would probably just tell them they were wrong. i dont think it would affect anything

- Would such a finding affect your resolution, would you accept it or refute it?
(this one occurred to me in the 'gay gene' thread about fruit fly's, what would *I* do if someone tested me and told me that I was infact 'straight' ie did *not* have the accepted genetic cause of 'gayness')
i would definitely refute it, butit would most likely affect my confidence hugely
_______________________________

Ok theres a lot of stuff in there, I'll PM you my email address if you like so you don't have to post on the public forums, either that or I think its on my profile so just drop me a line.
i dont really mind posting it, you never know, someone else might find it useful. :)

oh, and as youve probably noticed, im not very good at expressing this all.

I much more then care sweetie, both for your brothers personal situation, but far more for the implications that this area of investigation could have, I truly feel in a Bertrand Russel kind of way that "these propositions may seem mild [or uniteresting to some], yet, if accepted, the would absolutely revolutionise human life"


not to mention further my own vision of personal liberty, freedom and social intergration and cohesion with infinate variety and compassion for the individual, despite differences and without exception.

Ok, sorry if I am butting in here.

I have read this entire thread from beginning to end, and though I have no personal experience with these issues whatsoever, if it broadens your worldview, it can only be good.

Now I have a question of my own though, which is probably quite insignificant, and is certainly on a far smaller scale than most everything which has been presented so far, but still... Men and women are often told that they 'act like a woman/man', not as in doing something which would suit a woman/man, but as in having certain mannerism suiting these. My question then would be, when speaking strictly of *sigh* 'normal' (and yes I hate the word too - let's face it, normal is just the average of all the rest) men and women, is there a biological explanation for them leaning more toward mannerisms befitting of either gender?

Ok, sorry if I am butting in here.

I have read this entire thread from beginning to end, and though I have no personal experience with these issues whatsoever, if it broadens your worldview, it can only be good.

Now I have a question of my own though, which is probably quite insignificant, and is certainly on a far smaller scale than most everything which has been presented so far, but still... Men and women are often told that they 'act like a woman/man', not as in doing something which would suit a woman/man, but as in having certain mannerism suiting these. My question then would be, when speaking strictly of *sigh* 'normal' (and yes I hate the word too - let's face it, normal is just the average of all the rest) men and women, is there a biological explanation for them leaning more toward mannerisms befitting of either gender?

the deeper question may be who defines what the mannerisms of a gender *are* or *should be*? And how were those definitions made, and should we feel constrained by them? and why do we generally abide by them?

Sorry to butt in here, as I wasn't really invited, but I figured I'd try to answer your questions too, in case it helps you out.
How have you come to the conclusion that your mental 'gender' (i'm going to get so sick of fumbling concepts that just arn't adequate) is female?
How? Would that I knew that... It's just the way that I am. I don't know of any time that i 'came to a conclusion' about it, really. Of course, I might have while I was very young and have forgotten, but that doesn't help much, does it. It's just that I've always felt like my body doesn't fit the way my mind says it should.
- What influenced this conclusion
What influenced it? Again, I do not know. It's not the sort of thing where I made a decision about it. It's sort of like how people figure out that they are attracted to whichever gender they are attracted to, in that you just know. It wasn't really a conscious decision-making process.
The decision-making process came around when I looked around more, and realized there was a name for people like me, and that there was treatment for us. That was the point where I thought "Okay, what shall I do about this?" But there wasn't a decision about the underlying condition.
- What do you define as 'female' and why do you so strongly align yourself as such?
Hmm...
Difficult question. It's another one I cannot really give a satisfactory answer to. THe second bit of it is something that psychologists and such have been trying to answer for years, so I can help you even less with that bit than with the first.
- In what way might this definition of 'female' or indeed 'femininity' affect how you portray your own 'female-ness'
I don't understand the question, as the way I am interpreting it, its answer is within the question itself. Could you try rephrasing it?
In what way do you feel your 'male' body is 'wrong'?
It just is. It wasn't a big deal, though, until puberty, where it became sort of like a huge system shock that threw me for a loop for a while. A fairly long time, really.
It's just that there's something about a male body that doesn't fit. Sort of like living in a body that doesn't belong to you, I suppose.
- Is it simply that it is different from that of 'female' bodies and how you wish to portray your 'femininity'?
I don't really know quite what the cause is. It is entirely possible that this is the case.
This is one of the causes that seems a bit more likely than some of the others, to me, but I really can't give a definitive answer.
- If there were less defined limits of what 'men' are supposed to do, feel, look like, wear, etc do you feel that your feminine identity could be more easilly portrayed and accepted?
If you mean by staying male, then no. Definately not. There is something about the quality of 'male-ness' that just feels wrong.
If you didn't mean that, then I'm not quite sure what you mean. But I'd be willing to bet that more loosely defined limits of gender would make it easier for transsexuals to go through transition.
- Do you excersise regularly? ie. keep your 'male' body physically healthy despite feeling uncomfortable with that body?
Yeah. It's my body and I have tolive in it, so messing it up would be a bit stupid.
- How does your feeling that this body is 'wrong' affect your behaviours? eg. do you feel uncomfortable if another see's your current body semi/fully nude, how do/would you react if such a situation occurred?
Well, when I was still living as a guy, I would always wear long sleeves and long pants year-round, because I didn't like people seeing my body.
- When not wearing 'female' clothes, do you wear clothes that may accentuate/flatter your 'male' body? Why?
While I was living as a guy, meh, not particularly. I just wore whatever.
Have you ever, in any way, had medical/scientific 'confirmation' of how you feel about your body? (i'm not sure if this is possible so excuse any ignorance on my part)
Well, there isn't really a medical explanation for it. They can't scan you brain and test levels of chemicals and then say "Yes, you're transsexual". They don't know the cause.
I have been to psychiatrists, but they can't very well give a definitive 'yes' or 'no', they can jut look at the symptoms and try to diagnose.
- If you were to undergo 'testing' for various 'known' factors involved in such variations in gender/sex etc, how would you feel if the results 'proved' negative, that is if you were told that you had a perfectly 'normal' male body?
I would tell the doctor that I doubt his results.
- Would such a finding affect your resolution, would you accept it or refute it?
I don't know. It would be another big system shock, like gonig through puberty was for me. It would probably send me into depression for a bit, then I'd either get better or do something stupid.

After looking back over all that, I noticed that I couldn't really give a definitive answer to many of your questions. I hope the little bit I could answer helps you out a bit.

the deeper question may be who defines what the mannerisms of a gender *are* or *should be*? And how were those definitions made, and should we feel constrained by them? and why do we generally abide by them?

Certainly, but there are certain mannerisms -ways to react to situations, ways to handle people around you, and other things - which do seem to be based on more than social categorising and are based more on, for example, hormones. Mmm... did I just answer my own question? Still, does anyone know if there is a noticable biological variation in *sighs again* 'normal' men and women?

Please excuse me for doing this, but I only read the first page and skimmed thru the rest... Not really in a mood to read ten pages of forum right now.


Well, I have to admit that I like my brother more as a girl:). He's more fun...and relaxed...it's such a transformation, and it isn't just physical. When he's 'normal' (bash that friggin' word into the ground!) he's always angry, and neurotic. It's honestly like he's two different people...himself (as a girl) and this horrible, repressed, self-hating monster the rest of the time.

I wanted to say something in reply to this, but words fail to explain the mirth I get from reading that. ^-^;

I am 'transgendered' (biological male) and I am really starting to get annoyed at school and at home with all of this 'normal' crap. Before I just decided to be open about who I am, I was vastly neurotic and if you dropped a pencil too loud then I might contemplate snapping your neck... Verrry on-edge. Then one night, after I snapped due to crushing depression, I decided that either I was going to have to give society and myself a kick in the ass and stop worrying and whatnot or I would end up killing myself. No, this is not the "suicide" type of killing myself, but simply being so stressed and stuff that you collapse.

[OT NOTE]
Typing with OCD is a bit of a problem sometimes... :P
[/OT NOTE]

Now, I have decided that I do not need to hide who I am. If someone has a problem with it, then that is something they have to deal with and if they choose to deal with it in a violent way then they will find my steel-toed shoe imbedded in their nether regions. People are usually unaccepting of others' differences because they fear or fail to understand them. I do not mean to offend, but tranvestites creep me out a bit. Why? Well, usually because I do not understand why they can not shave their legs before putting on a skirt or short pants... Heh.

Femininity and masculenity is all well and good, too, but I hate the way some people think they have to be 'uber macho' or 'uber girly' in order to fit in. I, for one, am just myself... Plenty of people do not like me but some do. To me, though, it does not really matter if people do not like me. Society is one humongous facade and some people are blinded by it.

I, while not really liking the 'transgendered' label as it sort of adds to the confusion, identify as 'transgendered' because I feel that something does not match... My body and my self, or soul, are out of synch, if that helps to explain anything any. I did not decide any of this on the spur of the moment, and I did not just get up and say, "Hmm... I am going to be a transsexual!" All of this came very gradually as I saw the failures and shortcomings of society. One day I put all of the pieces together and I realized that I was not being myself... I was being a puppet of society. Another conformist clone adhering to the stereotypical and discriminatory methodoligies of society.

In short, I simply decided to stop swaying to society's tune. I am me. That is the only way I can explain how I am, and that should be all that is needed. I do not like my male form because I simply do not like it. It does not feel right. More minor, aesthetic reasons are the impractical hair sprouting all over the place, the shortcomings of some points of the male physique, and the preoccupation with sex that seems to come with testosterone.

I prefer personality over aesthetic things, yet am a raging nymphomaniac who has to constantly restrain herself from doing naughty things. I am me. Point out the contradictory nature of being a personality-over-aesthetic-value nympho all you like, but it fails to change the fact that I am who I am.

*snip* Hey..are you sure you AREN'T my brother??? :D

Uhmm... Yes? ^-^;

I could maybe be your sister, if you would like... However nonbiological it would be. :P

However, I do agree that transgendered people are a 'third' gender. I'm fairly certain that some countries (Brazil among them...is this right, Alien Born?) actually allow for three genders. Many nations consider transsexuals to actually belong legally to the gender they have undergone surgery to become.

I would tend to go even farther than that. Gender itself being a social construct that no one fits into completely, I would say that it, much like many other traits, is not a set of distinct possibilities, but is in fact a continuum. As humans, we feel the need to categorize things, but I think that, for many, 1, 2, or even 3 genders may simply not cover it.

Men in skirts unite!


If that offended anyone, sorry.


The Enlightened One, Gir

P.S. I'm not a man in a skirt.

Lol ok, call me lazy or whatever...I read the original post and the first two pages (I think) twas a hilarious first post and it was nice to see an absence of hate-mongering. I'm young and don't exactly KNOW what I'll do with my life, but at this point, it's pretty darn certain I'll become TG later on. (Including operation on the uh...lower appendage lol) So yup, this thread was very nice to read! T'anks! :D

I do not think we need a third gender.

The problem here is that most people need something to identify people with... I just accept people as who they are. I am me. I do not need someone to come up with a third gender to affirm who I am. That is just plain silly.

I think people should just be themselves. I am very open about pretty much everything and do not experience many problems yet. When I do, I will deal with them. I know in my soul what is right to me, and If I would like my physical form to be similar to my metaphysical form then that is it. You do not need to question everything as if there are ready answers for your inquisitions.

There are not always answers. Some things are just how they are.

Also, do not strive for *shudder* tolerance... Tolerance implies some sort of inferiority. What we want is acceptance, not tolerance.

This is a terrific example of community response in a real and very tangible way. I have seen a few tranny fights from being around sleezy nightclubs (they're more frequent than you might think) but they've always been beating each other up. It's good to see this segment of the community united for once.

It's a bar. Random people start random fights near bars because they're drunk. The transgender thing was just an excuse.

just a few that I can think of off the top of my head...

Starting at the begining, as seems to be the usual place

How have you come to the conclusion that your mental 'gender' (i'm going to get so sick of fumbling concepts that just arn't adequate) is female?
Come to the conclusion? Now there's a weird one. The same way everyone does, mine just came out the opposite to my physical sex. There was a lot of introspection to handle such a verdict, coming to it as I did at the onset of puberty, leading to said attacks below.

- What influenced this conclusion
You mean aside from the feeling that everything about my body is wrong leading to attacks on my genitals? (which revolved around trying to snap off offending member or force it back inside my body, to mimick the shape of a womans body.) Nothing. Discordance within yourself is a very powerful thing.

- What do you define as 'female' and why do you so strongly align yourself as such?
Now that one is impossible to answer. I don't really like gender roles or all that stuff, see.... I more see it as better fitting in with myself, rather than anything else.

- In what way might this definition of 'female' or indeed 'femininity' affect how you portray your own 'female-ness'
N/A -see above

In what way do you feel your 'male' body is 'wrong'?
- Is it simply that it is different from that of 'female' bodies and how you wish to portray your 'femininity'?
I feel it is wrong because it does not represent who I am internally. Remember that these questions have been posed to every sort of psychoanalyst, and none have come up with -the- answer. One might think they're asking the wrong questions.

- If there were less defined limits of what 'men' are supposed to do, feel, look like, wear, etc do you feel that your feminine identity could be more easilly portrayed and accepted?
I feel that my transition would be more easily accepted, but I do not feel it would remove the necessity for me to undergo the change in my body.

- Do you excersise regularly? ie. keep your 'male' body physically healthy despite feeling uncomfortable with that body?
[b]No, not really, but not for that reason. I'm lazy. I do walk a lot, but that's about it. I want to change that anyway, as I'm a bit unfit.

- How does your feeling that this body is 'wrong' affect your behaviours? eg. do you feel uncomfortable if another see's your current body semi/fully nude, how do/would you react if such a situation occurred?
It doesn't really affect my behaviour if someone sees me, more it makes me feel down to see "biological" women just being. It is quite depressing to me, to see what I want to achieve, so.... simply, unwittingly, before me.

- When not wearing 'female' clothes, do you wear clothes that may accentuate/flatter your 'male' body? Why?
I just wear whatever is at hand, but I have been moving towards more covering clothes recently -whether this is an unconscious decision to hide my body or not, I don't know. The unfortunate thing is, since I still live at home, and my little brother is as yet unaware, I NEVER have the chance to dress as I wish.


Have you ever, in any way, had medical/scientific 'confirmation' of how you feel about your body? (i'm not sure if this is possible so excuse any ignorance on my part)
I do not believe it is possible given the current inability of doctors to diagnose it. More, they just attempt to find anything else that it could be. So no.

- If you were to undergo 'testing' for various 'known' factors involved in such variations in gender/sex etc, how would you feel if the results 'proved' negative, that is if you were told that you had a perfectly 'normal' male body?
Did you mean to say body? I don't doubt I have a male body. it's that I want to change it to match my mind. If however, it was more linked to my mind, and still negative, I would feel the results were inaccurate.

- Would such a finding affect your resolution, would you accept it or refute it?
(this one occurred to me in the 'gay gene' thread about fruit fly's, what would *I* do if someone tested me and told me that I was infact 'straight' ie did *not* have the accepted genetic cause of 'gayness')
As said above, I would refute it. It would not accept my resolution in the long term, though it would likely affect my confidence in the short.
_______________________________

Ok theres a lot of stuff in there, I'll PM you my email address if you like so you don't have to post on the public forums, either that or I think its on my profile so just drop me a line.

_______________________________

Sinuhue, I would be very interested in your 'brothers' response to some of these thoughts also, I would be most gratefull if you could ask him to contact me in some form or if you would forward some of these preliminary questions to him also. Only if he is ok with them of course. I'm gonna have to do a whole *lot* of reading over the next couple of weeks before I can begin to formulate a proper research method and such, but any assistance or knowledge at this stage would be a massive help to me.

Damn my tutor's gonna kick me when she hears about this....


And you have my answers.

I fail to see, for some reason, the logic behind trying to rationalize people's choices about their lives. If I choose to be who I am then who is anyone to say otherwise? I would like to point out that you can not really stop anyone from being themselves... Usually people do that enough themselves, unfortunately.

You see, society has put this funny idea in people's heads that societal reprocussions really can hold sway on their lives in the long run. :rolleyes: Society only has as much hold over you as you allow and you should not allow society any. The minute you be what others want you to be is the minute you cease being yourself. Instead of conforming to the general view of normality or "what is ok" you should just be yourself.

Also, do not strive for *shudder* tolerance... Tolerance implies some sort of inferiority. What we want is acceptance, not tolerance.
Agreed.

It's a bar. Random people start random fights near bars because they're drunk. The transgender thing was just an excuse.
You misunderstand. The guys who wanted to attack my brother were not AT the bar. Nor was there another one close by. They were waiting OUTSIDE the bar, for this kind of 'opportunity'.

I find it sickening that people will so maliciously go out of their way to cause others harm simply because they are different.

What the hell is wrong with people today?

Nyu-Uxe-Vu']I find it sickening that people will so maliciously go out of their way to cause others harm simply because they are different.

What the hell is wrong with people today?
42

No...I guess that isn't the question :(

What is six by seven is the question. Sheesh.

but if you saw a transexual woman walking down the street, in most cases you wouldnt have any idea that she had ever been anything other than physically female

natural breasts, a vagina that looks and functions like a natural vagina....how would you ever know?

as far as you are concerned, she is a woman. if she turned around and told you she was a transexual would you suddenly started calling her "him"?

the shoulders and science hasn't found out a way to give men wide hips.

the shoulders and science hasn't found out a way to give men wide hips.

Yes it can... it's called "fat redistribution", and it's a perfectly natural part of hormone replacement. It doesn't change the bone, but a lot of it is to do with positioning of fat and muscle anyway.

Wow...where did THIS thread get dug out of?

Wow...where did THIS thread get dug out of?
When you made a tie-in to the meaning of life. and Nyu Uxe vu tried to guess the question, and fell for the age old trap :D

Phht. This thread shall never die! >:| Because I... AM BORED!