NationStates Jolt Archive

After the Kosovo war the UN placed Roma, or gypsy as they're more commonly known, in refugee camps in the former Yugoslavia. One of the refugee camps is in the shadow of a former lead smelting facility. Tucked between piles of toxic slag on soil too poisonous for even weeds to grow are the "temporary" homes of numerous gypsies. Their children's blood is so contaminated with lead that it cannot be measured. It's literally off the scale. The UN has known about the problem for five years, yet it has left the Roma in their death camps. Hitler put the Roma in death camps too, alongside the Jews.

Good job UN, Hitler would be proud.

http://see.oneworld.net/article/view/110805/1/

A LEAD SMELTER? Holy fuck...

Way to go, UN. You just lost a supporter.

That's really disgusting. Just one more thing to chalk up against the impotent, illogically structured and badly misused U.N.

Seriously, that thing needs the mother of all restructurings.

With all the rest of the UN fuckups over the last few decades, does this really surprise anyone?!?

With all the rest of the UN fuckups over the last few decades, does this really surprise anyone?!?
Usually most things the UN does do not surprise me, this, well... i am sickened and surprised, it is disgraceful

And here's one more reason to have Bolton as the US Ambassador to the UN!

Nice job UN! Keep it up! NOT!!!!!!

I'm almost as outraged about this as the picture of Saddam in his underwear!!

(Yes, I'm being facetious.)

This thread has Godwinned itself.

This thread has Godwinned itself.
Yes it has. It's sort of accurate though. Do you think the UN would have left those people to die of lead poisoning if they weren't gypsies?

Normally I dislike the UN, but credit where credit is due, they are finally doing something about the Gypsy problem.

Now if only they could get to work on the New age travelers.

Yes it has. It's sort of accurate though. Do you think the UN would have left those people to die of lead poisoning if they weren't gypsies?

Here's an observation.

The United Nations is composed of nation states, by nation states, for nation states.

If you're not a nation state, get ready to take a water cannon up the ass.

Yes it has. It's sort of accurate though. Do you think the UN would have left those people to die of lead poisoning if they weren't gypsies?

I don't think it's accurate at all, and the comparison to industrial sized genocide is in poor taste.

Anyhow, I don't know why the UN would have done this, if it indeed has done it as you claim it has, with such an intent, I mean. The article you quote seems to mention that "no solution" has been found, which, while horrible and should have been rectified a long time ago, is unsurprising as Roma are seen as pariahs in that part of the world, making it very difficult to find a settlement. :(

That's really disgusting. Just one more thing to chalk up against the impotent, illogically structured and badly misused U.N.

Seriously, that thing needs the mother of all restructurings.

I don't think it needs reconstruction, I think he just needs to go away.

I don't think it's accurate at all, and the comparison to industrial sized genocide is in poor taste.

Anyhow, I don't know why the UN would have done this, if it indeed has done it as you claim it has, with such an intent, I mean. The article you quote seems to mention that "no solution" has been found, which, while horrible and should have been rectified a long time ago, is unsurprising as Roma are seen as pariahs in that part of the world, making it very difficult to find a settlement. :(

Are you telling me there is a part of the world that has gypsies where they are not viewed as pariahs?

Here's an observation.

The United Nations is composed of nation states, by nation states, for nation states.

If you're not a nation state, get ready to take a water cannon up the ass.
Fass, take note. This is why the Roma were screwed. And the people in Darfur.

You can add to the list, I'm sure.

Not surprised at all, this is common fodder for the underbelly of Europe. It is right up there with Albanian crime lords running child slavery/prostitution rings throughout Western Europe.

Are you telling me there is a part of the world that has gypsies where they are not viewed as pariahs?

The world is a big place.

Not surprised at all, this is common fodder for the underbelly of Europe. It is right up there with Albanian crime lords running child slavery/prostitution rings throughout Western Europe.
You're not allowed to say that. The Albanians were our allies against the serbs.

You're not allowed to say that. The Albanians were our allies against the serbs.

Well, Clinton can suck my balls and I don't even want to get started on the Serbs. :rolleyes:

Fass, take note. This is why the Roma were screwed. And the people in Darfur.

You can add to the list, I'm sure.

Simplistic "explanations" may work for you, but I usually try to get the bigger picture.

The world is a big place.

Answer his question Fass.

The world is a big place.

Yes, but the gypsies are only in a small part of it, and everywhere that they are, they are disliked.

(Didn't ireland expell them a few years ago? Oh yes, that's right they did.)

They are also none to popular in the UK either.

Answer his question Fass.

You mean his unanswerable question?

Simplistic "explanations" may work for you, but I usually try to get the bigger picture.

Afghanistan
Rwanda
Sudan
Iraq
Kosovo
Yugoslavia

Need a bigger list of UN Screw ups?

You mean his unanswerable question?

He's right though but your still not answering the question. Can you or can you not tell him that "there is a part of the world that has gypsies where they are not viewed as pariahs?"

After the Kosovo war the UN placed Roma, or gypsy as they're more commonly known, in refugee camps in the former Yugoslavia. One of the refugee camps is in the shadow of a former lead smelting facility. Tucked between piles of toxic slag on soil too poisonous for even weeds to grow are the "temporary" homes of numerous gypsies. Their children's blood is so contaminated with lead that it cannot be measured. It's literally off the scale. The UN has known about the problem for five years, yet it has left the Roma in their death camps. Hitler put the Roma in death camps too, alongside the Jews.

Good job UN, Hitler would be proud.

http://see.oneworld.net/article/view/110805/1/
From what I've read in the article you linked, there's no mention of what I have bolded in your allegations. Care to corroborate them with a source?

Or are you taking pot shots at an organisation who is trying to find a diplomatic solution but is meeting stiff resistance, especially in the face of criticism not always founded?

Simplistic "explanations" may work for you, but I usually try to get the bigger picture.

Name a minority group under threat (or actual) of genocide that was protected FIRST by the United Nations.

NOTE: You can't count Kosovo, because that was a NATO action without UN authority.

Yes, but the gypsies are only in a small part of it, and everywhere that they are, they are disliked.

I wouldn't know about that. They have a poor reputation, yes, but to speak about attitudes in places where I haven't been would be uninformed of me. I know that the attitude towards them in South-Eastern Europe is sickening in its racism and xenophobia, hence why I was talking about that and not the entire world.

From what I've read in the article you linked, there's no mention of what I have bolded in your allegations. Care to corroborate them with a source?

Or are you taking pot shots at an organisation who is trying to find a diplomatic solution but is meeting stiff resistance, especially in the face of criticism not always founded?
BBC News hour covered the story this morning. The quotes in bold, except for calling them death camps, were exposed in the story. I'll work on getting you a link.

He's right though but your still not answering the question. Can you or can you not tell him that "there is a part of the world that has gypsies where they are not viewed as pariahs?"

As I said, I'm too ignorant of the attitudes towards Roma in the entire world to make any sort of statement about it. Lucky for me, I wasn't even making an allusion to it.

As I said, I'm too ignorant of the attitudes towards Roma in the entire world to make any sort of statement about it. Lucky for me, I wasn't even making an allusion to it.

Nice dodge Fass. I'll take your answer as no you can't name a place where they aren't viewed as Pariahs.

I wouldn't know about that. They have a poor reputation, yes, but to speak about attitudes in places where I haven't been would be uninformed of me. I know that the attitude towards them in South-Eastern Europe is sickening in its racism and xenophobia, hence why I was talking about that and not the entire world.

I just think, you know, you shouldn't be singling out SE europe as sickening in "its racism and xenophobia". In my experience, everyone who has ever had anything to do with gypsies hates them. And with good reason.

Name a minority group under threat (or actual) of genocide that was protected FIRST by the United Nations.

NOTE: You can't count Kosovo, because that was a NATO action without UN authority.

How is this relevant to this situation? You're attempting a red herring.

Tell me, how many of you honestly care about the plight of the gypsies if it weren't for the fact that it's a UN failure.
Comparing the UN to Nazi Germany is, in my eyes, unacceptable. This relativates the barbarism of the Nazis as well as insults an important, albeit imperfect, international body. The Nazis wanted to exterminate the gypsies, the UN fails to act or care. You CANNOT compare those!
You could ask yourself why the UN does nothing. It probably isn't on their agenda. Isreal-Palestine, Iraq, and the War on Terror are the top of the list. It isn't really in any of the powerful nations interest to deal with things like this, because it usually doesn't win votes or contradicts how they are treating their citizens. The US is part of the UN and therefore a big part of the problem (as with all others certain blocs).

How is this relevant to this situation? You're attempting a red herring.
No, I'm showing that the Roma situation that DC highlighted is typical of the UN, and it's typical because the UN only is interested in protecting nation states.

Not ethnic groups.

I just think, you know, you shouldn't be singling out SE europe as sickening in "its racism and xenophobia". In my experience, everyone who has ever had anything to do with gypsies hates them. And with good reason.
I don't hate gypsies.

Nice dodge Fass. I'll take your answer as no you can't name a place where they aren't viewed as Pariahs.

Read what I've written, because you obviously haven't so far, as you don't seem to understand why it isn't up to me to even attempt to answer the unanswerable question.

Also, you seem to assume that my ignorance of the matter is somehow affirmative of the assertion that there isn't such a place or places. Don't be so foolish.

www.ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp?idnews=28745

Confirms that children were being born in the camp since 1999, that children in the camp have lead levels too high to measure and that the UN knows about it but hasn't acted.

Need more confirmation? Look it up yourself.

I just think, you know, you shouldn't be singling out SE europe as sickening in "its racism and xenophobia". In my experience, everyone who has ever had anything to do with gypsies hates them. And with good reason.

Okay. You're apparently not the sort of person I wish to waste my time on.

Tell me, how many of you honestly care about the plight of the gypsies if it weren't for the fact that it's a UN failure.
Comparing the UN to Nazi Germany is, in my eyes, unacceptable. This relativates the barbarism of the Nazis as well as insults an important, albeit imperfect, international body. The Nazis wanted to exterminate the gypsies, the UN fails to act or care. You CANNOT compare those!
You could ask yourself why the UN does nothing. It probably isn't on their agenda. Isreal-Palestine, Iraq, and the War on Terror are the top of the list. It isn't really in any of the powerful nations interest to deal with things like this, because it usually doesn't win votes or contradicts how they are treating their citizens. The US is part of the UN and therefore a big part of the problem (as with all others certain blocs).
I can say I care about the Roma. One of my friends is half Jew half Roma. New Jersey has been home to several influential people of Gypsy descent. One of them worked tirelessly to expose the brutality of the Nazi death camps.

How tough can it be to find a non-contaminated piece of land to move the refugees to? It's been over 5 years. They should have known the land was contaminated from the beginning. It's the site of an eastern European lead smelting plant for fuck's sake!

Uniting many nations, each with thier own person agendas and beliefs, to a common goal is great in theory, but has proven to be poorly done in practice. The United Nations did work for a period of time, but throughout it's history it ahs faced harsh criticism. Recently for not being active enough especially. However, if compared to the Leage of Nations, it did perform superbly until recent years. While I would love to see a real uniting of nations, it just cannot be done with such a slow system and a screwed up world. There are simply too many issues to deal with.

This thread has Godwinned itself.I wrote this a couple months ago:Jones’ Corollary to Godwin’s Law:

In an online discussion, when a valid comparison to Hitler or the Nazis (not involving genocide, ethnic cleansing or extinction) is made, it is inevitable that those lacking the ability to dispute the valid comparison will invoke Godwin’s Law in order to save themselves from the public humiliation of being proven wrong.Of course, this thread shows people will invoke Godwin's Law even WHEN the comparison involves genocide, ethnic cleansing or extinction. :rolleyes:

I wrote this a couple months ago:Of course, this thread shows people will invoke Godwin's Law even WHEN the comparison involves genocide, ethnic cleansing or extinction. :rolleyes:

I agree Texpunditistan.

Here's an observation.

The United Nations is composed of nation states, by nation states, for nation states.

If you're not a nation state, get ready to take a water cannon up the ass.

So you are saying that those that take part in the UN are the ones responsible for this right? That puts the blame on the US as well doesn't it? Does the US have a solution for this? Does anyone? Do you?

How tough can it be to find a non-contaminated piece of land to move the refugees to?

oh nvrmnd I see DC has the solution. He will take them all in. What a guy.

So you are saying that those that take part in the UN are the ones responsible for this right? That puts the blame on the US as well doesn't it? Does the US have a solution for this? Does anyone? Do you?
The solution is simple: STOP ROUNDING THE ROMA UP INTO PRISON CAMPS AND FORCING THEM TO LIVE ON LAND SO POLLUTED THAT IT WILL KILL THEM. How's THAT for a solution?

They're Gypsies... let them roam.

oh nvrmnd I see DC has the solution. He will take them all in. What a guy.
How hard would it have been to use a large park or an undeveloped wilderness area as a refugee camp? Why would anyone choose to put them on the grounds of a lead smelting plant?

The solution is simple: STOP ROUNDING THE ROMA UP INTO PRISON CAMPS AND FORCING THEM TO LIVE ON LAND SO POLLUTED THAT IT WILL KILL THEM. How's THAT for a solution?

They're Gypsies... let them roam.

I read nothing that said they were rounded up and forced to live there. Are they being held at gun point? Can they not leave anytime they want to? Show me where you are getting yoru information. Why would you call it a prison camp? Just a troll are ya?

How hard would it have been to use a large park or an undeveloped wilderness area as a refugee camp? Why would anyone choose to put them on the grounds of a lead smelting plant?

I don't know. Do you think that whoever made the decision picked it because they thought ti would be a great way to kill off the gypsies? Who made the decision anyway?

I don't know. Do you think that whoever made the decision picked it because they thought ti would be a great way to kill off the gypsies? Who made the decision anyway?
The UN made the descision. They've also known about the problem for five years and done nothing to relocate the people.

I know how the Roma could end their persecution, and even get some decent property out of it in Europe and some areas of the U.S., and so do you.

They need to imitate the behaviours of the Islamic Radicals, blame everything on the United States, and start killing people and blowing their stuff up. The U.N. would adore them for it, might even be able to see fit to stop viewing them as 'problems' and start seeing them as 'brothers'.

Nevermind that the Rom have a history of persecution almost as long as the Jews in Europe and western asia, and that them being herded onto the grounds of a lead-smelter is right in the pattern for how they've been treated in that part of the world for their entire history.

This situation is totally unacceptable, but the comparison to Hitler is distasteful. It's more a result of a lack of caring and a faliure to find a decent solution, rather than forcibly rounding people up, and torturing them and working them and exterminating them, that this situation has come about. Yes, it's terrible, but the Nazi comparison and implication that UN is carrying on what Hitler couldn't finish is inappropriate.

For example, while researching Nazi germany recently I found this quote:
In 1936, Heinrich Himmler, Chief of the SS, created the "Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion."
I could easily have drawn a loose comparison to conservative Christian groups in the US, but I didn't. Why? The comparison wouldn't have stood up under closer scrutiny, and it would have been offensive to compare the two situations when the context, motivations and magnitude of actions were so clearly different. The same is true here.

The UN made the descision. They've also known about the problem for five years and done nothing to relocate the people.


I guess it's as easy as the UN saying - we're going to take some of your land and put the gypsies on it - and anyone should just agree to it huh? I don't think it's as simple as it is playing out in yoru mind DC. I am sure there are many factors to consider.

Now do you think the UN made the location decision based on a want to kill off the gypsies? IS that what you truely believe? If you can do a better job or have the perfect solution why don't you write the UN?

This situation is totally unacceptable, but the comparison to Hitler is distasteful. It's more a result of a lack of caring and a faliure to find a decent solution, rather than forcibly rounding people up, and torturing them and working them and exterminating them, that this situation has come about. Yes, it's terrible, but the Nazi comparison and implication that UN is carrying on what Hitler couldn't finish is inappropriate.

For example, while researching Nazi germany recently I found this quote:
In 1936, Heinrich Himmler, Chief of the SS, created the "Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion."
I could easily have drawn a loose comparison to conservative Christian groups in the US, but I didn't. Why? The comparison wouldn't have stood up under closer scrutiny, and it would have been offensive to compare the two situations when the context, motivations and magnitude of actions were so clearly different. The same is true here.
It may be inappropriate, but it does get attention. It sparks debate. If applied properly it can make people aware of a problem and get them to solve it. I think that it's a perfectly acceptable tactic.

I guess it's as easy as the UN saying - we're going to take some of your land and put the gypsies on it - and anyone should just agree to it huh? I don't think it's as simple as it is playing out in yoru mind DC. I am sure there are many factors to consider.

Now do you think the UN made the location decision based on a want to kill off the gypsies? IS that what you truely believe? If you can do a better job or have the perfect solution why don't you write the UN?
I think the UN made the decision because they simply don't care whether the Roma live or die.

Also, there's plenty of unused land in the former Yugoslavia. Forests and such. They're not toxic and there's no need to confiscate people's homes or businesses.

Hmm...That's some pretty sick stuff right there, its the first I've heard of it too. I guess that's the way it is with plenty of travesties, if you don't hear about it, it didn't happen.

I wonder if anyone is planning on doing something about it. Did the US level a formal complaint yet? Any other nations?

I don't think it needs reconstruction, I think he[sic] just needs to go away. Well I don't know about that. The intent and general purpose of the U.N. is a good one, creating a global community and a platform for debate on a range of imporant issues, as well as co-ordinating global efforts in face of disasters and humanitarian crises, the problem here is that it simply isn't working.

The entire organisation either needs to be majorly re-tooled after an assessment by an independant body, or completely scrapped and another organisation built in its place.

They put these people right next to a lead smelting factory!? Holy shit. Fuck the U.N. That was just plain stupid. Putting people in camps alone is stupid, but next to a lead smelting area? Friggin retarded.

Answer his question Fass.
Andalucia.

Oh, what fun. This thread's a shining example of why people like me don't mention the Roma in the family tree.

While I'm not a fan of US pre-emptive policy my attitude to the UN is also rapidly souring.

He's right though but your still not answering the question. Can you or can you not tell him that "there is a part of the world that has gypsies where they are not viewed as pariahs?"
Depends. There are quite a few roma in the US. As far as I know they are not actively disliked. Outside of their stigma of being for the most part quite poor, I don't think they are viewed as pariahs here.

I think the UN made the decision because they simply don't care whether the Roma live or die.

Also, there's plenty of unused land in the former Yugoslavia. Forests and such. They're not toxic and there's no need to confiscate people's homes or businesses.
You expect the UN to spend the money it gets from various countries on people actually in need? HAH.

I think the UN made the decision because they simply don't care whether the Roma live or die.

Also, there's plenty of unused land in the former Yugoslavia. Forests and such. They're not toxic and there's no need to confiscate people's homes or businesses.
The problem being that these unused lands belong to Yugoslavia and the UN cannot override national wishes. If Yugoslavia don't want the Roma in their unused forest and such, the UN cannot force them to accept them.

Also, from what I've read, it seems it is considered an internal problem, as in the Kosovo government has to do something about it, not the UN. The UN certainly didn't do enough to push for change, but it's not entirely their fault.

The only real "solution" to the Roma would be to give them a homeland of their own. However, as we've seen with Israel, that doesn't always work out so well.

I suspect that nowhere in Europe would be viable -- no government would willingly give up land unless they were MASSIVELY compensated. Even then, it'd be somewhere in Bealrus or Ukraine or maybe even Kazahstan.

Then, there's that little problem that Roma don't really settle anywhere anyway...

Perhaps there should be a huge debate in the international community as to the best way of settling the Roma debate...

The real problem I guess is that there is still a deeply set and massive cultural bias against the Roma in Europe and most other nations with significant Roma populations.

I suspect that there will simply be no end to this problem in coming years. Its unfortunate, but the world is simply not ready to tackle the issue. In the meantime, the best we can hope for is ending the more horrific abuses such as this lead smelter thing.