NationStates Jolt Archive

I hear this argument a lot, and it really bothers me. when did this myth start, and why do people keep using it despite it being completely untrue? If I went around saying that the US was founded on Shinto principles, people would call bullshit, so why not on the christian one?

Perhaps because it was? The founding fathers were Christian if anything, you'd be hard pressed to find a Buddhist amongst them. America was initially the place to go to escape religious persecution, hence the influx of Puritans and Quakers.

Largely due to the fact that pretty every other statement made by Bush concerning the war includes something along the lines of "God told me to do it".

[QUOTE=Neo Rogolia]Perhaps because it was? The founding fathers were Christian if anything, you'd be hard pressed to find a Buddhist amongst them. QUOTE]
Where the fuck did you hear that? the founding fathers were mostly deist.

It's because some people confuse "USA was founded by Christians" with "USA was founded on Christian principles".

It's because some people confuse "USA was founded by Christians" with "USA was founded on Christian principles".
okay, once again, neither of those are true.

Perhaps because it was? The founding fathers were Christian if anything, you'd be hard pressed to find a Buddhist amongst them. America was initially the place to go to escape religious persecution, hence the influx of Puritans and Quakers.

"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine." --George Washington

"It does me no injury to my neighbor to say there are twenty Gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor any other Church that I know of. My mind is my own church." --Thomas Paine [YES! I'm related to him! WOO!]

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." --Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." --Abe Lincoln.

Source: Salvation for Sale by Gerard Thomas Straub.

'Nuff said.

okay, once again, neither of those are true.

People far to oft confuse the Pilgrims, methinks, with the Founding Fathers.

Oh, and one more to boot:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"
1796, Article 11 Treaty with Tripoli, Ratified unanimously by the Congress of the United States of america and signed by the President of the United States...

We are most definately not a Christian Nation.

Hmm, then the founding fathers were the utmost of hypocrits. I know of several books which reinforce the notion of America's Christian origins. One of them would be "America’s Christian History: The Untold Story". If you want more sources, PM me.

The United States was not founded on Christianity directly. However, many of our laws are based on Christian morality. Examples include the ban on Prostitution, that the only legal marriges are between a man and a women and abortion being illegal in this country for some time. And need I mention "endowed by our creator" written by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independance.

Here are some more quotes: Have fun reading all you atheist revisionists

"The only foundation for...a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments." -Benjamin Rush signer of Declaration of Independance


"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not by religions, but by the gospel of Jesus Christ." -Patrick Henry

"I've lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: That God governs in the affairs of men. If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We've been assured in the sacred writings that unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain who build it. I firmly believe this, and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel." - Benjamin Franklin

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - John Jay- 1sy Supreme Court Cheif Justice


"Everyone appointed to public office must say, I do profess faith in God the Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ his only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God and blessed forevermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be given by divine inspiration." - Deleware's 1776 constitution


"A patriot without religion in my estimation is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real Good Will towards Men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of Society?...The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation." - Abigale Adams

"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man toward God." - a delgate to the constitutional convention

"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." - George Washington

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -John Adams

"Statesmen, my dear sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue." -John Adams again

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure, when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that they are a gift of God? Indeed, I tremble for my countrymen, when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." -Thomas Jefferson

Hmm, then the founding fathers were the utmost of hypocrits. I know of several books which reinforce the notion of America's Christian origins. One of them would be "America’s Christian History: The Untold Story". If you want more sources, PM me.A better question for you would be, which history books and who wrote them? Because I've read many history books that state that yes, they were mostly deists, at most you could say Christians, but with an extream Age of Reason bent. A recent biography of Ben Franklin makes this point quite well.

Perhaps because it was? The founding fathers were Christian if anything, you'd be hard pressed to find a Buddhist amongst them. America was initially the place to go to escape religious persecution, hence the influx of Puritans and Quakers.

Ahhh my favorite myth! The Puritans and escaping religious persecution.

Well young one, here are some details the history books left out.

The English Seperatists(we call them the Puritans) escaped persecution in Holland which was a safe haven for the oppressed. You could find the Belgian Wollan and the hugonaughts for example.

However, the Puritans didn't like the idea of getting integrated into Dutch Society so they left.

When they hit these shores the didn't even practice Religious freedom. They set up a quasi-theocracy which if you went against the elders you got tossed.

BTW: They weren't even the first ones here. Jamestown was up and running a year before they landed.

BTW: Many of the Founders practiced Diesm.

It gets said a lot, not because it's true--as has been so ably noted by people before me in this thread--but because the people who say it either want it to be true, or find some benefit in making the statement, and I think it's more of the latter.

Consider--who is it that generally makes that claim the loudest? The "christian" right, and their political lackeys. (I'm not saying that some Democrats don't do it, and I'm not saying all Republicans do--there are exceptions, of course.) Why would they make that claim so loudly? There's obviously a benefit to doing so, or they wouldn't do it.

Here's the benefit I see--it's a cheap emotional device to appeal to people who take their religion seriously, and it's an effective way of demonizing other groups, both inside and outside the country. In short, it's motivation.

A certain (and frighteningly growing) segment of the US population can be convinced to believe damn near anything if you convince them that God supports it. Here's an example--after the 9/11 attacks, when Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell blamed the ACLU, gays, lesbians, liberals, etc. for removing God's proteection from the US, who made the outcry? It sure wasn't their supporters--it was everyone else. From the Falwell/Robertson perspective, that was a win, even though they both had to retract and apologize. Why? Because they knew their supporters believed them, and the public outrage just made them feel more isolated from the world around them and gave them an enemy to focus on--those self-same ACLU members, gays, lesbians, liberals, etc.

They've got a vested interest in making as many people as they can in the country believe that this country is a Christian nation, because it serves as a trigger for those people who believe it. It's all about control.

We are most definately not a Christian Nation.

Even as an agnostic, I will have to say that is wrong.

While we were not founded as a Christian entity such as the Crusader states, the traditions and customs of early America were most certainly Christian, and was influential in the day to day lives of a majority of American citizens.

It is convenient to highlight certain quotes from certain Founding Fathers...If you take the time you will find that those quotes can be easily countered by other statements they made supporting the continuance of and sometimes superiority of Christianity in the United States, and in addition those people who WERE adamantly not Christian or against it were far outnumbered by other lesser known statesmen who often rose to office through their local congregations.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

1796, Article 11 Treaty with Tripoli, Ratified unanimously by the Congress of the United States of america and signed by the President of the United States..."

Note how that says "Government"...now, why would they issue such a statement rather than simply saying "The United States"? Perhaps it could mean that the United States wanted to assure Muslim Tripoli that we weren't a Crusader state for the sake of a treaty? Last thing we needed was a Holy War in the early years of the nation. And certainly, just because the government SAYS something...does that make it true? Methinks the same people who take this statement as it is are the same people who constantly accuse the Republican administration of lying whenever they issue a statement.

As this is a country of the people, by the people and for the people... people who were far and away 99.999 % Christian, this country was therefore Christian at its founding. Deal with it.

Hmm, then the founding fathers were the utmost of hypocrits. I know of several books which reinforce the notion of America's Christian origins. One of them would be "America’s Christian History: The Untold Story". If you want more sources, PM me.

Only TWO of the Ten Comandments are laws.

You can't murder or steal...well isn't that in every culture. Go to the MIddle East where they are founded upon a religon and run their government by a paticular religon. Because, if we were a Christian Country, it would be against the law to disrespect your parents, using the lord's name in vain, not being friendly toward your neighbor, speaking blaspheomy(yet we have freedom of religon)... Nowhere in our Constitution it says that the United States is founded upon Christian principles and therefore we shall pass laws in accordance. You can't even get the implication of that from the Constitution...

People far to oft confuse the Pilgrims, methinks, with the Founding Fathers.
Yes, it is true, but you must remember how many influential people come from Puritanical New England. Not saying that it is still Puritanical, but it was founded by the Puritans, and since the first two settlers whose settlements lasted in America were Puritans and English colonizers (tabacco traders), people get the notion that the nation and its government itself were founded on Christian principles. Really, the only Christian principle we are founded upon is the quote "All men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights...." Our government and nation are actually influenced more by Greco-British democracy than by Christian principles. However, our heritage is overwhwelmingly Christian, for instance, where did John Wesley come from? When and where did the Baptists form? How many Great Awakenings did we have due to Christian funda-evangelicalism (2)? Therefore, while our country is in no way founded on Christianity or Christian princples, it does have a strong Christian heritage, which cannot be ignored when studying a history book, but it can be if studying politics and government.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"
1796, Article 11 Treaty with Tripoli, Ratified unanimously by the Congress of the United States of america and signed by the President of the United States...
So, like, I suppose the Barbary pirates, being from Tripoli, were Muslim and therefore appeased by our refusal of official ties to Christianity? Just a guess.

Hmm, then the founding fathers were the utmost of hypocrits. I know of several books which reinforce the notion of America's Christian origins. One of them would be "America?s Christian History: The Untold Story". If you want more sources, PM me.

Of course they were hypocrites. They were white, land-holding slave owners that told us "All Men are Created Equal." They also then proposed that their class be the only ones allowed to vote.

They had--like almost any group of people--a lot of good ideas mixed in with a lot of really, really bad ones.

As this is a country of the people, by the people and for the people... people who were far and away 99.999 % Christian, this country was therefore Christian at its founding. Deal with it.


YOu couldn't be anymore wrong. The only people that were Christian were the Puritians which accounted for about half of the first people to America. The other half were gold seekers and rich seekers. The Puritans weren't christian, because they killed people who tehy thought were "whitches". That is not Christian at ALL...If this was a Christian nation it would be in our documents...Deal with it.

The United States was not founded on Christianity directly. However, many of our laws are based on Christian morality. Examples include the ban on Prostitution, that the only legal marriges are between a man and a women and abortion being illegal in this country for some time. And need I mention "endowed by our creator" written by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independance.
Actually, Jefferson purposefully did not include any mention of god in the original declaration, and that line was added only after the declaration went to commitee.

Here are some more quotes: Have fun reading all you atheist revisionists

"I've lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: That God governs in the affairs of men. If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We've been assured in the sacred writings that unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain who build it. I firmly believe this, and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel." - Benjamin Franklin
I have no idea where you got that, but Franklin was a diest. this is one of those "facts" you may have heard of


"Everyone appointed to public office must say, I do profess faith in God the Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ his only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God and blessed forevermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be given by divine inspiration." - Deleware's 1776 constitution
a state is not the US


"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man toward God." - a delgate to the constitutional convention
If you can't even fucking name him, why bring him up?

"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." - George Washington
This quote mentians christianity no where.

It gets said a lot, not because it's true--as has been so ably noted by people before me in this thread--but because the people who say it either want it to be true, or find some benefit in making the statement, and I think it's more of the latter.

Consider--who is it that generally makes that claim the loudest? The "christian" right, and their political lackeys. (I'm not saying that some Democrats don't do it, and I'm not saying all Republicans do--there are exceptions, of course.) Why would they make that claim so loudly? There's obviously a benefit to doing so, or they wouldn't do it.

Here's the benefit I see--it's a cheap emotional device to appeal to people who take their religion seriously, and it's an effective way of demonizing other groups, both inside and outside the country. In short, it's motivation.

A certain (and frighteningly growing) segment of the US population can be convinced to believe damn near anything if you convince them that God supports it. Here's an example--after the 9/11 attacks, when Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell blamed the ACLU, gays, lesbians, liberals, etc. for removing God's proteection from the US, who made the outcry? It sure wasn't their supporters--it was everyone else. From the Falwell/Robertson perspective, that was a win, even though they both had to retract and apologize. Why? Because they knew their supporters believed them, and the public outrage just made them feel more isolated from the world around them and gave them an enemy to focus on--those self-same ACLU members, gays, lesbians, liberals, etc.

They've got a vested interest in making as many people as they can in the country believe that this country is a Christian nation, because it serves as a trigger for those people who believe it. It's all about control.

Absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, spot-on!

Always consider the source, #1, and #2, for all the Founders who have been quoted here as being either pro-religion or anti-religion, might in not be prudent to find out when those opposing quotes were made -- and more importantly, where and to whom?

Certainly even Thomas Paine as far back as 250 years ago knew to tailor his words to his audience. So "politics as usual" is not nearly as new a phenomenon as we'd all hoped it was. 'Nother illusion shattered.

The United States was not founded on Christianity directly. However, many of our laws are based on Christian morality.

So let's just forget that the vast majority of US laws are the same as in societies the world over.

And need I mention "endowed by our creator" written by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independance.

Ah, because 'our creator' must mean the Judeo-Christian God.

And yay, quote mine!

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."- Thomas Jefferson

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."- Thomas Jefferson

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature ... [In] the formation of the American governments ... it will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of heaven ... These governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."- John Adams

Awesomtonia
If you can't even fucking name him, why bring him up?

Sorry, it was said by Governor Morris the Pennsylvannia delegate

Well, just because a few rules relate to christianity doesn't mean it was founded own christian principles. Those principles are just as Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist as Christian.

Christianity was merely a tradition they inherited. Most leaders tend to just use religion as bait to get people to go "yay" while worshipping their own ego. Not to say religion is wrong, just politicians are too egotistical to be religious.

As this is a country of the people, by the people and for the people... people who were far and away 99.999 % Christian, this country was therefore Christian at its founding. Deal with it.
country with mostly christian population != christian nation. the idea that this nation was founded on a religious base is offensive to all that this nation stands for. america was created as a place with freedom of and from religion. You deal with it.

The United States was not founded on Christianity directly. However, many of our laws are based on Christian morality. Examples include the ban on Prostitution, that the only legal marriges are between a man and a women and abortion being illegal in this country for some time. And need I mention "endowed by our creator" written by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independance.


Well if you are going to quote the DOI; it's "their creator" Let's not forgot the phrase, the laws of nature and of Natures God"

Sounds more Druid then Christian.

Prostitution being outlawed is not unique to Christianity. Neither is abortion. Nor the definition of marriage.

As to your quotes, Meh. Nobody has ever argued that there were no Christians amoung the founders. Just the argument that the US was founded for Christianity.

Finally, Jefferson and Franklin were bad choices to quote. There are also quotes that go against Religion.

Yes, it is true, but you must remember how many influential people come from Puritanical New England. Not saying that it is still Puritanical, but it was founded by the Puritans, and since the first two settlers whose settlements lasted in America were Puritans and English colonizers (tabacco traders), people get the notion that the nation and its government itself were founded on Christian principles. Really, the only Christian principle we are founded upon is the quote "All men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights...." Our government and nation are actually influenced more by Greco-British democracy than by Christian principles. However, our heritage is overwhwelmingly Christian, for instance, where did John Wesley come from? When and where did the Baptists form? How many Great Awakenings did we have due to Christian funda-evangelicalism (2)? Therefore, while our country is in no way founded on Christianity or Christian princples, it does have a strong Christian heritage, which cannot be ignored when studying a history book, but it can be if studying politics and government.

So, like, I suppose the Barbary pirates, being from Tripoli, were Muslim and therefore appeased by our refusal of official ties to Christianity? Just a guess.

Damn, bad wording strikes me again.

By saying "We are in no way a Christian Nation" I meant that our Government was not created "For Christian, of Christians, and By Christians". Sorry for the confusion.

And yes, I can agree that largely that statement in the Treaty was made for apeasement, however I highly doubt that any of those men who signed truly believed with any real conviction that the US was founded upon Christian beliefs. If they had, I highly doubt they would have ratified it unanimously. Conviction, especially in religion, does ring the man's heart a bit more than the Government does.

YOu couldn't be anymore wrong. The only people that were Christian were the Puritians which accounted for about half of the first people to America. The other half were gold seekers and rich seekers. The Puritans weren't christian, because they killed people who tehy thought were "whitches". That is not Christian at ALL...If this was a Christian nation it would be in our documents...Deal with it.
I think we're forgetting what the details are - is the question was our country founded upon Christian principles? or the Christian religion itself? If by religion, then yes the Puritans had some hand in it all, since they were the earliest religious colony. However, the question is Christian principles, and on the subject of the Puritans not being Christian, by Christian principles standards, no, they were not, but the rest of the colonies were. Rhode Island, with its Unitarian church, was not necessarily unChristian, it was simply a stronghold of rleigious tolerance. Even Georgia, Carolina, Virginia, they all came with churches and cathedrals from early on. You must remember that though many were gold seekers and pursuers of riches, all still came from Christian Europe, which meant that the overwhelming majority was either Presbyterian, Calvinist, Lutheran, Catholic, or Anglican. I'd say that makes them techincally Christian, and many of them tried to act as Christians, too.

I'd like to note that the US has no national religion. Nor national language for that matter.

The thing which is probably the most telling is that the Constitution of the United States does not mention God or Christ anywhere. If we were founded upon such things, you'd think they'd rate a mention somewhere within the preamble. Other constitutions do so, but ours does not.

And before you point out that beautiful document written by Mr Jefferson and ratified on July 4th, 1776, please note that said document was not so much a policy statement as it was meant as a notice to the world that America was now no longer owned by England, and was mainly to get money from France.

Absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, spot-on!

Always consider the source, #1, and #2, for all the Founders who have been quoted here as being either pro-religion or anti-religion, might in not be prudent to find out when those opposing quotes were made -- and more importantly, where and to whom?

Certainly even Thomas Paine as far back as 250 years ago knew to tailor his words to his audience. So "politics as usual" is not nearly as new a phenomenon as we'd all hoped it was. 'Nother illusion shattered.
You know the old saying "follow the money"? Well, it applies here, only you can define money as power and influence as well. Who benefits if the myth that the US is a christian nation gains currency and acceptance? Find out who that is, and you find out why the myth is pushed, which, if I recall correctly, was the actual question posed at the beginning of the thread.

was created as a place with freedom of and from religion.



Freedom of, yes. Freedom from, no.

Freedom of, yes. Freedom from, no.

So the 'Wall of seperation' speech didn't happen? Oh, also:

"No man [should] be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor [should he] be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor ... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief ... All men [should] be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and ... the same [should] in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."- Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779.

The Black Forrest
Finally, Jefferson and Franklin were bad choices to quote. There are also quotes that go against Religion.

I intentionally quoted them because of the other quotes by them already posted.

More food for thought:

For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…" - First consitution of Connecticut (the basis of the US consitution)

"...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". - the end of the prayer which opened the First Continental Congress

"...Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" - John Q. Adams when asked why Christmas is the most important federal holiday

"By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing." - federal court ruling 1799

"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people...This is a Christian nation." - Supreme Court Ruling in 1892, They sighted 87 presidents to support it

"in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.'- House Judiciary Committee 1854

the USA was founded on the Consitution which slowly to this day has evolved into the laws that are now today. Christian Principles, Indians came here first then the English which the values even early on were primarly Catholic so it's Christian Based ideas that formed our country

I think we differ on our definitions of freedom from religion. What I perceive as freedom from religion is not being exposed to religion in any form...i.e. living in a little buble of atheism where religion does not exist. That speech asserts one's right to not practice religion, however it does not seem to state that one has the right to not see or hear other's religions. If so, you would so no churches as Christians and others would be forced underground where nobody would know they existed.

The Black Forrest


I intentionally quoted them because of the other quotes by them already posted.

More food for thought:

For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…" - First consitution of Connecticut (the basis of the US consitution)

"...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". - the end of the prayer which opened the First Continental Congress

"...Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" - John Q. Adams when asked why Christmas is the most important federal holiday

"By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing." - federal court ruling 1799

"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people...This is a Christian nation." - Supreme Court Ruling in 1892, They sighted 87 presidents to support it

"in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.'- House Judiciary Committee 1854

Ok I will give you John Leland

Excerpt from July 4th Oration, July 5, 1802.


. . . Never promote men who seek after a state-established religion; it is spiritual tyranny--the worst of despotism. It is turnpiking the way to heaven by human law, in order to establish ministerial gates to collect toll. It converts religion into a principle of state policy, and the gospel into merchandise. Heaven forbids the bans of marriage between church and state; their embraces therefore, must be unlawful. Guard against those men who make a great noise about religion, in choosing representatives. It is electioneering. If they knew the nature and worth of religion, they would not debauch it to such shameful purposes. If pure religion is the criterion to denominate candidates, those who make a noise about it must be rejected; for their wrangle about it, proves that they are void of it. Let honesty, talents and quick despatch, characterise the men of your choice. Such men will have a sympathy with their constituents, and will be willing to come to the light, that their deeds may be examined. .

Ahem *cough*
Thread exhumation?

English which the values even early on were primarly Catholic
If you have this poor of a grasp on history you probably shouldn't be posting here.

I think we differ on our definitions of freedom from religion. What I perceive as freedom from religion is not being exposed to religion in any form...i.e. living in a little buble of atheism where religion does not exist. That speech asserts one's right to not practice religion, however it does not seem to state that one has the right to not see or hear other's religions. If so, you would so no churches as Christians and others would be forced underground where nobody would know they existed.

Freedom from Religion is just that. You don't have to be exposed to Religion if you don't want to hear it. Christians go crazy at this and scream persecution when they hear they can't do their "soap box" talks, have prayer in the class room, etc.

No fair quoting David Barton. He came up with this and others,
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." --James Madison (false)

Many have been corrected, but the Right does not want to admit to this.

There are more and I think this would help.

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston2.htm

Freedom from Religion is just that. You don't have to be exposed to Religion if you don't want to hear it. Christians go crazy at this and scream persecution when they hear they can't do their "soap box" talks, have prayer in the class room, etc.


And on that I believe you are wrong. That is a misinterpretation if I've ever heard one.

Ahem *cough*
Thread exhumation?

Hey when there are abortion threads, relgion will follow! ;)

Christian? I think Not. (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6556099&postcount=35)

that post, made a while ago, should cover the entire argument.

And on that I believe you are wrong. That is a misinterpretation if I've ever heard one.

No I am afraid you don't understand. If I am a free person and have Religious freedom; it also means I don't have to listen to Relgious talk.

I think we differ on our definitions of freedom from religion. What I perceive as freedom from religion is not being exposed to religion in any form...i.e. living in a little buble of atheism where religion does not exist.

You can just say 'I support school prayer,' you know.

Lostfloyd
No fair quoting David Barton. He came up with this and others,

Hmm, if this link is true I apologize. However, this does not devalue my argument which still contains many other factual quotes.

No I am afraid you don't understand. If I am a free person and have Religious freedom; it also means I don't have to listen to Relgious talk.


You have the right to ignore it, however you do NOT have the right to restrict others from practicing their religion and teaching it to others. That would violate their right to freedom OF religion.

You have the right to ignore it, however you do NOT have the right to restrict others from practicing their religion and teaching it to others. That would violate their right to freedom OF religion.
well, ya know with the rest of the constitution being trampled on, I think the freedom of religion can go as well.

You have the right to ignore it, however you do NOT have the right to restrict others from practicing their religion and teaching it to others. That would violate their right to freedom OF religion.

Hrm...To quote:

http://www.creationtheory.org/Essays/SchoolPrayer.shtml

The Parable of the Man and his Foreign Cousin

Jesus was apparently fond of parables, so let me spin one for you now. An American man's cousin is in town visiting from Europe. He invites him out to dinner with a few of his friends. While at dinner, he starts talking about the NFL with his friends. After a few minutes, he notices that his cousin is acting withdrawn, and he suddenly realizes that a European would not know anything about American football, so he's feeling excluded and uncomfortable. The man considers several possible courses of action:

1. Ridicule his cousin for his ignorance of American football.
2. Ignore his cousin's obvious discomfort.
3. Politely ask his cousin to sit apart from everyone else until they're finished talking about football.
4. Try to steer the discussion into neutral, "common-ground" subjects so that his cousin can participate, knowing that he can always talk about football with his friends some other time.

If you were that man, what would you do? Obviously (assuming you have some shred of decency in you), you would choose option #4. I think virtually any Christian would agree, but not when it comes to school prayer. When it's time to engage in a group religious activity, a surprisingly large percentage of Christians will eagerly choose options #2 or #3: ignore the discomfort of religious minorities in their midst, or politely ask them to exclude themselves and then pat themselves on the back for being so thoughtful. Some will even choose option #1: ridicule the minorities. But if these people are truly the "good Christians" they claim to be, couldn't they choose option #4? Couldn't they pray discreetly, or reserve their prayer for places such as home or church? Why must they worship in a public manner, in mixed company, thus pointedly reminding religious minorities of their minority status? Why must they be so inconsiderate that the state actually has to step in and restrict them from doing so, and why must they be so obstinate in their disrespect for others that they would actually fight tooth and nail against such restrictions?

Members of the Christian Right often describe secularism as if it's another religion. "How can you kick Christianity out of the schools", they argue, "when the schools are permitted to teach secularism all they want?" But secularism is not a religion. Secularism is an absence of religion. Like the "common-ground" subjects of my parable, secularism represents that which is not exclusive to any particular religion, so that members of all religions can participate equally. That is why public schools should only have room for secularism, and not the religious practices of any one religion, no matter how numerous and aggressive its followers are.

You have the right to ignore it, however you do NOT have the right to restrict others from practicing their religion and teaching it to others. That would violate their right to freedom OF religion.

Yes I can.

You don't have a right to practice your Religion on my property.

You don't have a right to practice your Religion at the exclusion of other Religions.

You don't have a right to enter my business and preech to my workers.

etc., etc. etc.

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."
-Washington

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."
-Washington

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
-Jefferson

Our founding fathers recognized the Christian religion. They even adopted many of its principles in the creation and governance of this nation. They also, however, were quick to deny that fact when needth be to please a group. They used many religious ideals, but did not want that to be known, for if they acknowledged a religion, it would be political suicide. To act as if there was no Christian thought in the creation of this nation is silly. But it is also silly to think that Christian thought ruled over all thought in the mind of the founders. As always, they comprimised to create a easy solution.

Our founding fathers recognized the Christian religion. They even adopted many of its principles in the creation and governance of this nation. They also, however, were quick to deny that fact when needth be to please a group.

Um, except the majority of Jefferson's anti-Christian statements were in personal letters. Whoops, there goes that argument.

Meh, any true Christian would know that Jesus condemned the Pharisees who prayed in public just to be seen by men. However, I wasn't discussing school prayer in the first place...although that issue is affected by this one. Does an individual not have the right to voice her opinion in spite of hostility towards it? I say, let those who choose to do so pray and let those who choose not to do so abstain from prayer. Christians should not force another person to pray (a forced prayer would be in vain anyway) and the other person should not force Christians to not pray.

Meh, any true Christian would know that Jesus condemned the Pharisees who prayed in public just to be seen by men. However, I wasn't discussing school prayer in the first place...although that issue is affected by this one. Does an individual not have the right to voice her opinion in spite of hostility towards it? I say, let those who choose to do so pray and let those who choose not to do so abstain from prayer. Christians should not force another person to pray (a forced prayer would be in vain anyway) and the other person should not force Christians to not pray.

Would you accept someone praying to Baal or pinning up Anton Lavey's 9 Satanic Statements in the entrance hall of your child's school, then?

It's their choice, although I doubt many would seriously do it for any reason other than to protest Christianity -.-

Meh, any true Christian would know that Jesus condemned the Pharisees who prayed in public just to be seen by men. However, I wasn't discussing school prayer in the first place...although that issue is affected by this one. Does an individual not have the right to voice her opinion in spite of hostility towards it? I say, let those who choose to do so pray and let those who choose not to do so abstain from prayer. Christians should not force another person to pray (a forced prayer would be in vain anyway) and the other person should not force Christians to not pray.

I have no problems with Christian kids asking for a room to pray in. However, to say that class time must be used, sorry that is choosing one Religion over the others.

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."
-Washington

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."
-Washington



Ahh Washington. Christians love to quote him but they seem to look the other way when you bring up his letter to the Touro Synagogue.

"...For happily the Government of the
United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support."

Excellent statement GMC.
It seems to me that this thread is missing the larger point. The USA is not a theocracy...and that is one of it's strongest points. If people desire a "Christian Nation" -move away! Really...just move. There are a dozen nations around the world that are officially "Christian". Go there. It seems to me that you are missing the basic idea that the USA is about. MELTINGPOT...PLURALISM. If you don't get that...then you are missing the "GRAND EXPERIMENT" that is the US. It is the most moral pin upon which we stand.

I think the only country founded on something Christian is the Vatican. Sort of, it's history tells something else, but the overall idea would work. If you want some sort of Theocratic Dictatorship, that's the place to go.

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."
-Washington

Errr... I'm sorry Mr Washington, but... how the F am I supposed to follow his will? It's not that he'll send me an email or call me on the phone... so.. how??

Also, the part of "It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God"... western colonialism. Typical. Too bad Washington's dead already, I'd enjoy beating the fact that there are other religions too into his head.

Errr... I'm sorry Mr Washington, but... how the F am I supposed to follow his will? It's not that he'll send me an email or call me on the phone... so.. how??


Bible maybe?



Also, the part of "It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God"... western colonialism. Typical. Too bad Washington's dead already, I'd enjoy beating the fact that there are other religions too into his head.


Nonsense, Christianity is a religion for the entire world, claiming that it's just another aspect of western colonialism is uninformed at best.

you dumb bunny, the so called founding fathers of the united states were Deists and masons, they believed in free trade, no accountability, and satan

The United States was not founded on Christianity directly. However, many of our laws are based on Christian morality. Examples include the ban on Prostitution, that the only legal marriges are between a man and a women and abortion being illegal in this country for some time.
Blah blah. Prostitution has been either explicitly legal, or openly tolerated for most of this nation's history. Beyond that there is a public intrest to be served in its regulation. Disease, particularly in the era before penecilin and it's derivatives. And I hate to burst your bubble, but sarsaparilla provided (and still does) some protection against syphilis. Kind of a whole new light to see the Lone Ranger in, no?

Marrige has always been a legal institution primarily concerned with rights over and governance of property, particularly as it relates to children. But given the larger numbers of marriges that functioned as alliances throughout history, the primary fuction is the protection of property. Marrige has become significantly more powerful institution in the modern era with advances in medicine, as more kinds of property were invented, and as the importance of caring for dependants rose in importance. Only in the post-industrial era did these kinds of rights, obligations, and collections of property and personal freedoms become so ubiquitious that people needed a broader institution of marrige to protect the works of their life in the event of their incapacitation or death.

Marrige has never been sacred, least of all to Christians, proof of that is common-law marrige statues which are still on the books, marriges performed by judges, or sea captains, or duly registered ministers of the Universal Church of Life. If you hate gay marrige, it means you hate the idea of people having the freedom to enter into legal agreements they see fit, and Christian dogma states that free will is a gift from God. Hating gay marrige is hating God's gift, and that's prideful. Actively opposing freedom is tyranny, and a denial of God. I seem to remember reading about how that makes Him wrathful or something.

Hating gay marrige is hating God's gift, and that's prideful. Actively opposing freedom is tyranny, and a denial of God. I seem to remember reading about how that makes Him wrathful or something.


Just because He allows us to do something, doesn't mean He approves of it. He gave us the free will to commit murder and rape yet He condemns those on numerous occassions. We have the ability to pursue our own passions, lusts, and desires freely, however we are not exempt from the eternal consequences of choosing to neglect his will.

Perhaps because it was? The founding fathers were Christian if anything, you'd be hard pressed to find a Buddhist amongst them. America was initially the place to go to escape religious persecution, hence the influx of Puritans and Quakers.

They most certainly were not all, and those who were were not the type to base politics on religion. As you said, religious persecution caused a wave of immigration - that is because Europe was at that time insanely fundamentalist when compared to a relatively modern US (how the times change, eh?)

There was a reason for the first amendment being adopted merely four years after the constitution was signed.

Speaking of "reason", have you read Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason"?

Paine is the one who said "I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." Sounds like a deist more than a Christian...

Also,

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

Religious, yes, but certainly not Christians. Or at least not Christian fundamentalists, which is what everyone appears to claim today...

it has to do with the american mindset today...

"my way is the way.. not because it's the right way.. but because it's the american way" sort of mindset...
and in today.. and a while before today... america has been run by christians.. and they have promoted this false information..
(after all.. the church has gotten really good at that throughout the years)

Nonsense, Christianity is a religion for the entire world, claiming that it's just another aspect of western colonialism is uninformed at best.
*falls over laughing* PLEASE come over here and say that! You'd probably get an offer for you to offciate at a 'Christian' wedding if you mention Christianity. Western weddings are popular so suddenly Japan now has a weekend pastor industry to meet demand.

The Japanese seem to be doing just fine without it right now... well, except the bit about needed pastors for weddings. But there's good money in it, really.

*falls over laughing* PLEASE come over here and say that! You'd probably get an offer for you to offciate at a 'Christian' wedding if you mention Christianity. Western weddings are popular so suddenly Japan now has a weekend pastor industry to meet demand.


This is a misconception, as they fail to differentiate between Christianity as a cultural thing and Christianity as it was meant to be. It originated in the West, however, and that's where it gained a foothold, therefore it is commonly associated with everything Western. It's kind of sad that people have this perception of it really, because Christianity is supposed to be a religion which the entire world embraces.

Anyway, let's continue this tommorow. Mr. Boyfriend went to bed and I'm kinda sleepy myself so it's time to hit the hay :D

Just because He allows us to do something, doesn't mean He approves of it. He gave us the free will to commit murder and rape yet He condemns those on numerous occassions. We have the ability to pursue our own passions, lusts, and desires freely, however we are not exempt from the eternal consequences of choosing to neglect his will.
Him liking the legal institution of marrige for two sweaty guys with clear pores and fantastic hair isn't the issue. No one is advocating fedralizing the national guard to force churches to bless gay weddings. He thinks they should be free to make that choice and commitment. He did give them free will after all. If you truly believe your exists, you should listen to Him. And if He doesn't exist you still should screw with contracts to which you are not a party.

And for my own personal edification: How, EXACTLY, are rape, murder, or any other crimes where people persons or property are forced to suffer the unwelcome injury at the hands of others in ANY aspect similar to two people deciding to bind much of their lives together in an entirely legal institution?

God cares a HELL of a lot more about my wearing cotton/polyester T-shirts than he does about what two guys do together after they've balanced their joint checking account. At least if I'm to put any stock in your supposedly holy book. Also, I'm not a big fan of shellfish, but on occasion..... I'm being a little facetious, but only a little.

The real Christian God, the God of the New Testiment, is a very powerful and compelling promise of hope and freedom. If the God you want to keep in your heart is a God of freedom, you're mind must expand its capacity to imagine Him, your heart must grow to hold Him, your faith must must be stronger to support the trust in His wisdom. A god of oppression, is small, weak, cowardly. He's a god of the fearful, for the fearful, so they might find the strength to face a world that's just too big for them. He's a thief and a liar, and only generous with his misery. Or maybe you require a realized promise of dominion over the lives of other people as proof that a god, any god, exists, and upon which you may lay the cornerstone of your faith.

The US Constitution was written in ink made from the blood of Jesus that the Mormons preserved for over 1700 years. It was stored in a Viking burial ground near present day St. Paul, Minnesota. Witches in Salem tried to destroy this blood through telekinesis, but were discovered and burnt justly. George Washington killed thousands of witches in a single day during the French and Indian War. Benjamin Franklin harnessed electricity to smite sinners and their whore girlfriends. Thomas Jefferson flip-flopped on slavery and performed abortions in the cider house behind Monticello and Patrick Henry was Gay. I hope this clears everything up.

What I wonder... are there seriously Christians that believe that things like the 10 commandments and Christian laws were original ? That before they were written down in the bible similar laws did not already exist ? That people just walked around happily smashing eachothers heads in and having no respect for anothers property ?

If so, it is a bit odd impressive that civilisation had already progressed far enough to write Gods word down, isn't ?

However, many of our laws are based on Christian morality. Examples include the ban on Prostitution, that the only legal marriges are between a man and a women and abortion being illegal in this country for some time.
:rolleyes:
You wont find prostitution, same-sex-marriage or abortion among e.g. islamic nations. With your reverse applied argument that would mean that the US is founded by muslims.

Would you accept someone praying to Baal or pinning up Anton Lavey's 9 Satanic Statements in the entrance hall of your child's school, then?
Amen to that! ;)

I love the myth that pilgrims came to America for religious freedom. The Pilgrims came to America for religious repression. Pilgrims were so fundy that the British thought they were dangerous. These wack jobs had to escape to America just so they could get started burning witches and torturing people in wooden stocks.

This is a misconception, as they fail to differentiate between Christianity as a cultural thing and Christianity as it was meant to be. It originated in the West, however, and that's where it gained a foothold, therefore it is commonly associated with everything Western. It's kind of sad that people have this perception of it really, because Christianity is supposed to be a religion which the entire world embraces.

... as far as I'm aware, all of the major religions are designed to be embraced by the entire world. Isn't that part of the point of religion? If not all of them, then certainly quite a few.

The US Constitution was written in ink made from the blood of Jesus that the Mormons preserved for over 1700 years. It was stored in a Viking burial ground near present day St. Paul, Minnesota. Witches in Salem tried to destroy this blood through telekinesis, but were discovered and burnt justly. George Washington killed thousands of witches in a single day during the French and Indian War. Benjamin Franklin harnessed electricity to smite sinners and their whore girlfriends. Thomas Jefferson flip-flopped on slavery and performed abortions in the cider house behind Monticello and Patrick Henry was Gay. I hope this clears everything up.

Tsk. You forgot the bit where all the founding fathers sacrificed their lives to prevent Satan taking over the world, except for one whose name is not recorded, who managed to crawl away, mortally wounded, and order all records of the event destroyed. Silly.

...You forgot the bit where all the founding fathers sacrificed their lives to prevent Satan taking over the world, except for one whose name is not recorded, who managed to crawl away, mortally wounded, and order all records of the event destroyed. Silly.

This is not true. I don't know what you're talking about. If something crazy like that did happen, it would certainly not be safe to talk about it in public. I mean hypothetically dangerous in a totally not true way. Because that didn't happen. I am not here.

The United States was not founded on Christianity directly. However, many of our laws are based on Christian morality. Examples include the ban on Prostitution, that the only legal marriges are between a man and a women and abortion being illegal in this country for some time. And need I mention "endowed by our creator" written by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independance.

Here are some more quotes: Have fun reading all you atheist revisionists

"The only foundation for...a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments." -Benjamin Rush signer of Declaration of Independance


"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not by religions, but by the gospel of Jesus Christ." -Patrick Henry

"I've lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: That God governs in the affairs of men. If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We've been assured in the sacred writings that unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain who build it. I firmly believe this, and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel." - Benjamin Franklin

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - John Jay- 1sy Supreme Court Cheif Justice


"Everyone appointed to public office must say, I do profess faith in God the Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ his only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God and blessed forevermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be given by divine inspiration." - Deleware's 1776 constitution


"A patriot without religion in my estimation is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real Good Will towards Men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of Society?...The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation." - Abigale Adams

"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man toward God." - a delgate to the constitutional convention

"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." - George Washington

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -John Adams

"Statesmen, my dear sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue." -John Adams again

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure, when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that they are a gift of God? Indeed, I tremble for my countrymen, when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." -Thomas Jefferson

Most of them are more deist than christian. Especiallt Franklin and Jefferson

"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine." --George Washington

"It does me no injury to my neighbor to say there are twenty Gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor any other Church that I know of. My mind is my own church." --Thomas Paine [YES! I'm related to him! WOO!]

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." --Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." --Abe Lincoln.

Source: Salvation for Sale by Gerard Thomas Straub.

'Nuff said.

As beautifully anti-orthodox Christianity as was the great Thomas jefferson Sadly, this classical liberal penner of the constitution doesn;t reflect the Puritan people that mainly filled the US to begin with.

Most of them are more deist than christian. Especiallt Franklin and Jefferson

Jefferson was opposed to the Christian Church a bit like William Blake, but that didn't stop Blake being a form of a Christian. Neither does it stop jefferson believing in God. Indeed english common law is based on Christianity.

This assumption isn't totally a misnomer. America was founded in no inconsequential part on Purtian Christian principles. You don't have to go any deeper than the Mayflower compact to find a good example. The earliest instance of "American" republicanism was Puritan Congregationalism. Everyone who was a committed, believing member of the religious community had a right to participate in its governing. The writings of John Winthrope or William Bradford are good examples.

These ideas had an obvious and a significant impact on the development of republicanism and intellectual independence from England. There are plenty of writings on the transition from Puritan to Yankee.

Likewise, the idea that New Englanders wanted to establish a land of religious freedom and tolerance is untrue. They wanted to establish a community in which they could practice Christianity in the way that *they* believed it could be practiced. Connecticut and Rhode Island were founded by people who disagreed with the Congregationalist majority, and were exiled.

It may not be the most savory notion for today's more secular sociey, but America does indeed owe a great portion of its identity to Christian Puritanism.

The United States was not founded on Christianity directly. However, many of our laws are based on Christian morality. Examples include the ban on Prostitution, that the only legal marriges are between a man and a women and abortion being illegal in this country for some time. And need I mention "endowed by our creator" written by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independance.

Those are not only "Christian" doctrine, but tenets of Islam, and don't forget the basis of "Christian law", Judaism. The founding fathers of this country were less concerned with religion than with politics, economics, nationalism. The pigrims however, were religious nuts and zealots that had to,leave their own country because everyone was tired of their crap. They didn't "escape religious persecution" as they say because there was plenty of religious acceptance in Europe at the time. Nobady in Europe liked the Puritans because they were judging, power hungry, religious nutjobs. They came over here after getting kicked out of Europe and recieved aid from the Native Americans before killing their people and imposing their beliefs. How's that for religious persecution.