NationStates Jolt Archive

NS Anonymous: Ethics of Non-RP Forums.
------------------------
Hello. My name is Mr.Misanthrope, Chief of Syniks, and I am an anonymous NS General poster.

You don’t know my Real Life name but, largely because of that, I can, and do, tell you quite a lot about myself.

There are several benefits to being “anonymous”, not the least of which is the ability to openly and honestly share opinions and stories that may otherwise be repressed because they might be embarrassing.

This benefit allows us to engage in healthy, non-RP debate on subjects important to us; subjects ranging from Politics to Sexuality to Hobbies.

Unfortunately, there are those who would take advantage of anonymity and Lie about the things they have done or their position(s) in life in order to make us believe that they “have been there”, or that they embody “the other side” of the argument.

Some people have said to me: “You expect someone on the Internet to tell the Truth?” Well, Yes. Especially in a non-roll-playing “anonymous” forum. Especially in a Debate where Names are unimportant but Ideas and Experiences are. Perhaps I am a naïve idealist, but to me lying about one’s “real life” when no one can find out about you (unless you let them) is the lowest, most despicable act anyone on a public board can do.

By holding oneself to be something one is not, be it a Combat Veteran, a Transsexual (GLBiTs), a Physician, an Attorney, someone who has experienced a particular tragedy, etc., besides baldly lying, that person debases and degrades the lives and experiences of those who have the life experiences required to claim title to those positions. Not only does it degrade the lives of others, it demonstrates exactly how little the Poser thinks of his own Real Life, since he won’t share it with others when there is no risk to him.

To me, this is worse than petty, juvenile Flaming. It is an abuse of Trust. It is unnecessary and malignantly deceitful, Trolling behavior, and we are all worse off for it.

I like a good debate, even with those with whom I vehemently disagree. But when someone on ANY side of a debate illegitimately expresses an “experientially based” opinion or anecdote, it undermines the validity of all debaters on that side of the argument – and that is grossly unfair to everyone concerned.

A teenager may have an opinion on raising a family, but they cannot KNOW. A citizen of one country cannot KNOW the reality of life in another country unless they have lived there. A person of one “race”/ethnicity can never KNOW what it is like to be a person of another “race”/ethnicity. A civilian, or even a REMF, can never KNOW what it is like to be in combat. These things cannot and should not be faked. They most certainly should not be lied about in an anonymous debate.

There are certain rules to a debate, and those rules demand a certain level of ethical behavior. Lying about your experiences or person in an anonymous forum - where there can be no justification (dissembling or declining to answer is not Lying) - is utterly unethical.

But yes, this is the Internet. Unless one either stupidly or arrogantly believes no one will find publicly posted information (ICQ Bios, Online Dating Bios, Personal Web Pages & Personally Posted Genealogies, etc.), with careful planning and attention to detail, one can ensure there are no back doors to one’s RL information. However, if that information is out there it can be found; and someday, after too many contradictory posts or non sequiturs, someone is going to go digging and yet another malignant, lying Poser is going to be “outed” for violating the trust of, as we of NS General were recently called by a particular Poser… well, I’ll let you read it…

First of all, I'm not explaining anything to you or any other bunch of anonymous gits on a public forum...
That’s the level of respect a Poser has for people engaged in honest Debate, (not to mention his or her own Real Life and experiences). Look at it hard. It’s not pretty – and IMO we should not tolerate it because it is unethical and it debases us all.

why would you lie?

why would you lie?

Maybe your life really sucks/sucked, and the internet gives you a chance to pretend you aren't a total loser.

Maybe your life really sucks/sucked, and the internet gives you a chance to pretend you aren't a total loser.
but i'm a total loser in RL and online :rolleyes:

if you're secure in your looser-ness you don't need to lie

The problem is that it's all too easy to verify some aspects of a career just by using publicly available information.

its somewhat irrelevant seeing as how for the most part we can never prove the 'truth' of any statement made by our fellow co-posters, therefore we must either take everything as truth, or doubt everything, I think which of these two one opts for could be quite an interesting side poll.

not do you lie, but do you believe what you are told? (in this specific context of webforums etc)

personally I try and be as honest as possible at all times in my RL life so I don't see why it should be different when I'm on the web.

but i'm a total loser in RL and online :rolleyes:

if you're secure in your looser-ness you don't need to lie

Not need, want.

Unless I'm obviously joking, anything I say on here about myself is true. Theres just a lot that I don't say.

Not need, want.
yeah yeah

Though we can't verify people's identities, and personal honesty on forums is probably questionable in a few cases, I seriously doubt that most people are lying about themselves. The people I've gotten a to know a bit from here seem to lead pretty real lives, and are very awesome.

I tend to believe pretty much everyone, (subject to the content of their posts of course, that may change)

Anyway, in debate, what's more important than personal veracity is intelectual honesty and sources.

Though we can't verify people's identities, and personal honesty on forums is probably questionable in a few cases, I seriously doubt that most people are lying about themselves. The people I've gotten a to know a bit from here seem to lead pretty real lives, and are very awesome.

I tend to believe pretty much everyone, (subject to the content of their posts of course, that may change)

Anyway, in debate, what's more important than personal veracity is intelectual honesty and sources.

It's been fairly easy to identify some people - without any greater tool than Google. And to verify information.

It's been fairly easy to identify some people - without any greater tool than Google. And to verify information.If you don't have their name? How do you find them?

I would challenge that there actually is any anonymity on the internet. Identity isn't your Social Securiy number, or your name, or any other societal labels you might have RL. It's your personality, the face that you show the world, the way you want to be seen. Just because you have a different one on the internet doesn't make you anonymous - you still have an assumed identity that is consistent through all of your posts, unless you create different usernames for the purpose of defeating that. If you post on a board regularly, you develop a consistent identity and consistent social position and label within the scope of the board.

As far as lying about RL goes, I don't see a point. RL identities have little to do with message board identities in the first place. Using personal experiences for debate, whether they are true or not, is decidedly underhanded in any case.

If you don't have their name? How do you find them?
Some people use the same nick at other sites, and make the mistake of posting under their real name on websites which also share their nick.

Cross reference their opinions, age, gender, and other information that they have provided publicly, and you have a name - especially if consistently done across multiple websites.

All of a sudden, you have a LOT of information.

Try Googling someone's NationStates country name.

I'm trying Whispering Legs. :)

yes people here lie. people in real life lie. there are undoubtedly people here who have made up their identity whole cloth. (i mean some of the believeable ones, not the obvious puppet nutcases)

i find that when i suspect that someone has lied about themselves that i discount their opinions no matter how well expressed. if they cant be bothered to tell the truth about themselves, i certainly cant be bothered to take them seriously.

all we have here is our words. we are judged not on our families, our social status, our friends, our looks, our jobs but on what we say and how we say it. if we are not honest we are nothing. we tell a bunch of lies then slip off into oblivion to be replaced by another bunch of lies.

its sad that some people think that what they are isnt good enough for an internet forum.

I might add that there are other indications that something is amiss.

Take military service, for instance.

Unfortunately for those who pretend to it, there are many who have served - some in the same areas that others pretend.

You only have to see a single extreme misstatement about something factual related to military training, or military specialty indicators, to know that the person who just made that statement was never in the particular branch of service - ever.

It's been fairly easy to identify some people - without any greater tool than Google. And to verify information.
have you really bothered to do that? its never mattered enough to me to look up someone ill never meet in real life.

did wittier take you up on your challenge to find out about him?

.....damn...all I'm getting is some jolt stuff, and a whole ton of leg fetish sex websites. You're safe from me Whispering.

have you really bothered to do that? its never mattered enough to me to look up someone ill never meet in real life.

did wittier take you up on your challenge to find out about him?

If I find the comments posted "too far out of character" to be plausible, I look.

Whittier sent me a telegram asking what ARPERCEN is. It's the central Army Personnel Records Center.

He never sent me his real name, so no, I couldn't look him up. I haven't Googled him, either.

I can see no reason to lie in an anonymous internet OOC forum. However I do at times play devil's advocate, but when I do I declare that I am doing so.

have you really bothered to do that? its never mattered enough to me to look up someone ill never meet in real life.
When I find a particular "been there, done that" Pose to be personally offensive (pretending to be a Vet or a Minority) or Dangerous (pretending to be a Doctor) I begin digging. One is a Flame, the other is Fraud.

Some people make it easier than others (Eutrusca is a good example of an "Easy" - but he also doesn't Pose...). For example, one of my personal email accounts is accessible from my pull-down profile. Other people have put their private web site in their NS profile, allowing direct access to whatever they posted there. If their RL name is there, a quick Google/Anywhoo/DoD check will get you almost any information you want in verifying their statements. (Ditto if they use consistant Aliases across multiple boards.)

For "computer savvy" people, there are sure a lot of Internet/Group Posters who don't seem to realize how big or permenant a footprint they leave.

(Word of advice - never never never post contradictory or potentially unpleasantly recieved personal info in ANY online Bio... it WILL come back to haunt you.)

I, for one, am glad that this issue is under discussion. I stand with integrity and honesty. For those who are tempted to lie I would suggest telling the truth... it's easier to remember.

For "computer savvy" people, there are sure a lot of Internet/Group Posters who don't seem to realize how big or permenant a footprint they leave.

(Word of advice - {i]never never never[/i] post contradictory or potentially unpleasantly recieved personal info in ANY online Bio... it WILL come back to haunt you.)

BTW, this is a factor in the US if you're ever up for a security clearance. They WILL pull everything up, and they WILL ask you about it.

Seen guys I knew lose their clearances because the background check pulled up evidence of undisclosed extramarital affairs, anti-American beliefs, etc.

They're very thorough - and they are only using public information - so they don't need a warrant.

BTW, this is a factor in the US if you're ever up for a security clearance. They WILL pull everything up, and they WILL ask you about it. Seen guys I knew lose their clearances because the background check pulled up evidence of undisclosed extramarital affairs, anti-American beliefs, etc. They're very thorough - and they are only using public information - so they don't need a warrant.
Whew! ;)

(Fortunately I had my TSBI well before the "Internet"... The PRP can be a bitch.)

I completely and utterly agree. You only need to lie when you are trolling for the purpose of trolling. Other than that...don't give details that might out you in RL if that's not what you want, but don't pretend to be something you're not in OOC forums.

Whew! ;)

(Fortunately I had my TSBI well before the "Internet"... The PRP can be a bitch.)

They refresh your TS more often now. And every few years, even between renewals, they cast their net and look.

As an aside, they catch people like this http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/31/sabir.shah/

by first noting their presence on the Internet.

oooo i just googled my country name. outside of nationstates there are only people i kinda wish were me. when i took their suggestion and googled my real last name there were even MORE people/places/businesses that i wish were somehow ME.

y'all could probably do better, i dont particularily try to hide my identity online

Damn it, I just googled my country name and theres other Taldaans out there! If any of them do anything terroristy, I could be the one with my head on a spike! :eek:

I googled lacadaemon. There is another. (And it is not me).

Also some crap about history and stuff.

Damn it, I just googled my country name and theres other Taldaans out there! If any of them do anything terroristy, I could be the one with my head on a spike! :eek:
There are a few other MrMisanthropes out there (and even more Mr.Misanthropes - including an Unreal Tourny player and a Gay Guy).

Rule of Thumb: If you see a MrMisanthrope on a Liberal board or a Supremicist board it's almost certainly NOT me (unless it's a rebuttal/Flame).

Conversely, if it's on a "gun" board (or ARStechnica) it most likely IS/was me (unless it's a rebuttal/Flame).

Syniks doesn't pull up much.

Because it's so easy to lie on the forums I don't, if that makes any sense. There is not point to it-if I make myself 'greater than I am' people will be just as skeptical as if I am just 'who I am,' so really being honest is the only way to go. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but there it is.

but i'm a total loser in RL and online :rolleyes:
Hey, me too. And I lie all the time.

*watches everyone implode because of the liar paradox :D*

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

Damn it, I just googled my country name and theres other Taldaans out there! If any of them do anything terroristy, I could be the one with my head on a spike! :eek:I once googled my name, Czardas, and it turned up 63,800 replies. Having a common name makes you much more difficult to trace.

However, there are ways you could trace someone online through NS. You could take the NS name of a nation and use the NS database to find the IP address of the creator. Then you could locate the computer with that IP address. The person owning the computer would be the person who created the nation.

Or, if you can't be bothered to go to all that trouble, look for things they might say, such as the old story: a wandering priest comes to the inn where something has been stolen. He turns out the light and asks everyone to place their hands on a soot-blackened stove under which a rooster sits. The rooster will crow when the thief puts his hands on the stove. Everyone will touch the stove, except the real thief. Likewise (if you've ever read 'Lord Edgware Dies' aka 'Thirteen at Dinner', a mystery novel) if a person suggests that he has committed an illegal activity, he probably didn't do it.

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

See now i actually attempt to leave a 'paper' trail on the internet, searching The Emperor Fenix wont get you much perhaps but it add up when you start doing variations on Lord Fenix, and i think thats a good thing because it allows someone to investigate me, that way they can find out im telling the thruth for themslves and that always makes people happier.

Lying on the internet... whats the piont? It doesn't change anything in real life, and i do try not to lie there. Be as true to yourself as you can because there is no piont in not being so, it changes nothing.

You could ask me anything and id like to nthink id answer honestly, and i'd like to think that everyone else would too. HOWEVER, if they dont, thats their descicion. if they chose to lie they chose to lie, just put up with it. i do it online and in RL, theyve got their reasons who are you to say they shouldn't.

I once googled my name, Czardas, and it turned up 63,800 replies. Having a common name makes you much more difficult to trace.
~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe
Czardas, I ALWAYS consider you to be rollplaying - unless you state otherwise. :D

Supreme Ruler of the Universe, Indeed. As Imperial Multiverse Overlord of the "I" sure as hell didn't give you that title... :p

ns gives out people's ip addresses??

ns gives out people's ip addresses??
Not to my knowledge.

Since the Profile feature is currently disabled, (and that may be why, I dunno) I think you'd have to be a pretty good hack to get IPs from Jolt.

If someone pretending to be like you is all it takes to degrade your opinion of yourself or if you honestly listen to advice from people on an anonymous forum without consideration, I think you get what you deserve. I hardly think that lying about yourself on the internet is the unpardonable sin. :rolleyes:

Not to my knowledge.

Since the Profile feature is currently disabled, (and that may be why, I dunno) I think you'd have to be a pretty good hack to get IPs from Jolt.

And the moral is, always use a proxy anyway.

Hey, Syniks...have you considered that people who lie on forums may well lie on your poll and so present a hopelessly skewed result in favour of the "Don't lie" opinion, regardless of how many people are actually internet liars? :)

Back OT, I don't lie. I do fail to tell the absolute truth once in a while, but only with really personal things. Even then it isn't lying, I just tend to take a politician's approach and avoid the question. :p

If someone pretending to be like you is all it takes to degrade your opinion of yourself or if you honestly listen to advice from people on an anonymous forum without consideration, I think you get what you deserve. I hardly think that lying about yourself on the internet is the unpardonable sin. :rolleyes:
no but there ARE unpardonable lies that are told on the interent.

on a different site a woman we had known for a couple years died of aids. when she came back a few months later, revealing herself as a psycholiar, there was nothing she could do to get anyone to forgive her

it depends on the lie, the site and how close people get eh? most liars fold under the weight of their lies and just come back as some new lie, never getting close to anyone.

That's just personal oppinion. While I probably wouldn't have much else to do with her, I probably wouldn't be that concerned.

If someone pretending to be like you is all it takes to degrade your opinion of yourself or if you honestly listen to advice from people on an anonymous forum without consideration, I think you get what you deserve. I hardly think that lying about yourself on the internet is the unpardonable sin. :rolleyes:

Well, I do agree that that sin can be pardoned. I respectfully disagree that lying is acceptable, even on the internet. To begin with, there is no need to reveal ANY information about yourself; the only reason to let slip any personal fact is to let others know something about you, what kind of person you are, or to validate your point of view.

Were I, for example, to inform others that I had a black belt in karate when that is untrue, then they will have an untrue image of who I am, and my sole purpose in lying would have been to create in their mind an untruth. It would serve to make me appear tougher or more important than what I am in reality. It also diminishes the real work and discipline that karate masters achieve. And were I to discuss martial arts or self-defense in a debate then my image as an expert could unfairly and dishonestly add weight to my argument.

Personally I'm for honesty and integrity. It's a lot less likely to hurt you then the opposite.

Hey, Syniks...have you considered that people who lie on forums may well lie on your poll and so present a hopelessly skewed result in favour of the "Don't lie" opinion, regardless of how many people are actually internet liars? :)
Everybody's a critic... :rolleyes: ;)

It would not be in the interests of a BTDT Poser to lie on the poll, since the public results of that poll show exactly how much disdain people have for them. Since few people actually lie (as was said, who needs to? it is anonymous after all) the few who post No are only displaying their lack of understanding the value of free and open (honest) debate.

RP is RP. OOC debates about RL are something else entirely.

I don't lie, but sometimes I forget aspects of the truth. But I don't do so intentionally. it also doesn't help that I truly suck at explaining where I stand.... :(

I wouldn't blame people who've talked to me for not actually believing I'm TS. to hear me talk about it, with the stunted sentences and spending ages thinking, it seems like I'm a bad liar.

I don't lie, but sometimes I forget aspects of the truth. But I don't do so intentionally. it also doesn't help that I truly suck at explaining where I stand.... :(

I wouldn't blame people who've talked to me for not actually believing I'm TS. to hear me talk about it, with the stunted sentences and spending ages thinking, it seems like I'm a bad liar.
Well, the only TS I've ever personally known lived in Spokane. If that's you - Hiya Hiya. Another Bad Movie Night soon? :p

Well, the only TS I've ever personally known lived in Spokane. If that's you - Hiya Hiya. Another Bad Movie Night soon? :p

'fraid not. Though I might watch bad movies anyway.
Youngest TS where I live, methinks, though. Given the moderate/small population and the fact that from the pictures I've seen, they're a lot older.

I'm 18.... 19 next year.

Oh, sunny glasgow (the Scottish one, not any imposters...) how I love you. OOH! and the local wildlife. I live in a fairly meh neighbourhood, bordering several REALLY bad ones. So Self defense classes for the win.

Now see what you've done. You've started me off.

night poster Bump

I tend not to bother with lying, in RL either. It's too much trouble and too much to remember.
Besides, I like who I am, and I'd rather people get to know the real me.
Though I have on occassion been tempted to lie about my weight or age, it's just too much trouble.

I've actually been mentally kicking myself over this sort of thing for a while. I went through a period of lying about myself and trying to hide my identity. I didn't do the 'pretending I'm someone more important than I am' thing, I just obscured some things.

Luckily, at the time I really sucked at lying and ended up telling the truth eventually, due to inability to form a coherent backstory.

All's well that ends well though, I suppose.

EDIT:
About RL, there is a thing I do avoid and obscure, although I don't openly lie about it, because by the time someone has gathered enough information to suspect it they most likely know almost everything there is to it.

Other than about that thing, I don't much like lying and obscuring.

There's a private forum for survivors of stalking and domestic violence that I participate in. And due to the fact that I'm a man, and the victims are nearly all women, they have a major distrust of men.

I had to go to great lengths to verify who I was, and in what way I was involved with helping victims of domestic violence.

They even have a problem with men pretending to be women who are victims - only to turn out to be stalkers themselves.

There are some lies that aren't forgiveable.

Were I, for example, to inform others that I had a black belt in karate when that is untrue, then they will have an untrue image of who I am, and my sole purpose in lying would have been to create in their mind an untruth. It would serve to make me appear tougher or more important than what I am in reality. It also diminishes the real work and discipline that karate masters achieve. And were I to discuss martial arts or self-defense in a debate then my image as an expert could unfairly and dishonestly add weight to my argument.

No it doesn't, though. How does you acting like an idiot at all affect the fact that they've spent years training and forming their bodies? And that they do have discipline where you, who would lie about something you can't do for yourself, do not?

There's a private forum for survivors of stalking and domestic violence that I participate in. And due to the fact that I'm a man, and the victims are nearly all women, they have a major distrust of men.

I had to go to great lengths to verify who I was, and in what way I was involved with helping victims of domestic violence.

They even have a problem with men pretending to be women who are victims - only to turn out to be stalkers themselves.

There are some lies that aren't forgiveable.
Ok. Stalking is a completely different subject than lying.

I tend not to bother with lying, in RL either. It's too much trouble and too much to remember. Besides, I like who I am, and I'd rather people get to know the real me. Though I have on occassion been tempted to lie about my weight or age, it's just too much trouble.
But Bitchy... Unless you are using your weight or age to make a point (like chair-breakage or remembering the JFK assasination for example) those sorts of personal info are immaterial - and people from Female are supposed to lie about those anyway.... :p

Now if you were to tell me you were 32 and had 2 masters degrees and a Doctorate - after serving a stint in the US ArmyNavy, I would be a bit more than curious. I've seen people called on that one on the Cannabis Culture forums...

Europe evening poster bump

Last Bump - 4:30 PST - Want to catch the Wed Evening USians