NationStates Jolt Archive


Libertarians - Have you Signed Up For the Free State Project Yet?

Allanea
31-05-2005, 12:40
Migrating for Freedom

by Kat Dillon • Updated May 24, 2005

What would cause a group of ordinary citizens to
uproot family, leave jobs and friends to move to New
Hampshire? It would have to be something important.
Yet 6,500 individuals so far have pledged to do so.
Though none are required by their pledge to move until
we have 20,000 pledgers, 104 people have already made
the move. I myself left a quite comfortable
situation in Texas and moved with my daughter to New
Hampshire in June 2004.

Why are all these people taking this drastic step? We
are part of the Free State Project
(http://www.freestateproject.org), a group of people
concerned about the ever growing intrusion by
government on the private lives of citizens. The Free
State Project is a plan in which 20,000 or more
liberty-oriented people will move to New Hampshire,
where they may work within the political system to
reduce the size and scope of government. The success
of the Free State Project would likely entail
reductions in burdensome taxation and regulation,
reforms in state and local law, an end to federal
mandates, and a restoration of constitutional
federalism, demonstrating the benefits of liberty to
the rest of the nation and the world.

Moving for the cause of freedom is nothing new. Jason
Sorens, founder and Chairman of the Board for the Free
State Project points out, "The whole American
experience is based on migrating for freedom. That's
what most of the immigrants who came to our shores
were doing. They wanted a better life, and that's
exactly what we're doing." From that movement sprang
the greatest nation this planet has ever seen. Nowhere
else was it recognized that individual rights are
inherent and inalienable, not a whim of those in power
to bless us with or take away. Nowhere else has the
protection of those rights led to such a prosperous
nation.

The problem is that daily, we see our brothers
sacrificing their inherent rights for the illusion of
safety. Our citizens have forgotten their power. They
have forgotten that their rights are not given them by
the government, so they accept it blindly when the
government takes away those rights. The founding
fathers were aware of this problem. Benjamin Franklin
once said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty,
to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety."

When we give up our 4th Amendment rights for
legislation like the Patriot Act, we open ourselves up
to something far more terrifying than a few
terrorists. We open ourselves up to the full force of
the U.S. being used against its own citizens. If you
believe the Patriot Act will only be used against
terrorists, you've buried your head in the sand. As
H.L. Mencken wrote, "The whole aim of practical
politics is to keep the populace alarmed - and hence
clamorous to be led to safety - by menacing it with an
endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
Sound familiar? Are you tiring yet of the elevated
security alerts, vague warnings of imminent terrorist
attacks? As John Stossel reminds us, "Patrick Henry
did not say, 'Give me absolute safety or give me
death.'"

When was the last time you read the Constitution or
the Bill of Rights? At the very least, read through
the Bill of Rights. You'll be hard pressed to find any
that the U.S. government is not now violating. You
might be surprised to learn what some of your rights
are.

As dire as the violation of our rights is, the fed's
trampling of our economic freedoms are almost harder
to bear. Let me give you a small example. A friend
wanted to start a restaurant here in Dallas. He was
all ready to go, wanted to provide his excellent
service to the people of Dallas, provide a few jobs.
It took nearly a year after his being ready to satisfy
government regulations and open his business. After
moving the business, remodeling to suit regulations,
getting all the necessary permits, etc., he was
finally ALLOWED to sell food. This small example is
multiplied a million times over in every business
across the nation. Is the illusion of safety worth
having our hands tied? Does the government actually
protect you? Wouldn't it be better to take
responsibility for your own life and safety? It is the
impossible weight of government regulation and
taxation that is driving our economy down, not greedy
capitalists, as we are told.

The U.S. left the gold standard in 1933. This allowed
the government to print money on a whim. When money is
printed without being backed by gold or silver, it
loses its value. That is what creates inflation.
Notice how prices have been rising in the past few
months, everything across the board costs more? That
is the price we all pay when the printing presses are
rolling.

How did schools become a government operation? Any
time you ask government to solve a problem that the
free market can solve itself, you will find the
problem solved inefficiently and often with
corruption. An individual will be cautious with his
own money and investments. Government, which takes its
wealth by force, is like a rich son who, not having to
work for his money, squanders it thoughtlessly.

The Free State Project proposes to take education out
of the hands of government, precisely because it is
too important to be left to that rich philandering
son, the state. Already we have in place private means
to fund schools in New Hampshire. The Liberty
Scholarship Fund (http://lsfund.org) has been set up
as a first step to providing privately funded
alternatives to the public schools.

With all these problems facing our once magnificent
nation, what can be done? Voting has not been
effective. The individuals who see through the media
smoke screen are scattered. Legislation is heavily
against allowing third parties to run for office.
Fighting for our freedom is not an attractive option,
even though the abuses we endure are far greater than
those that spurred the American Revolution. So our
proposal is to gather those scattered individuals who
understand the benefits of freedom. If we can create a
haven for freedom in just one state, it will serve as
a shining example to the rest of the nation, and the
world. If you value your individual rights and your
pocketbook, please check us out.

Everything that is really great and inspiring is created by the individual who can
labor in freedom. – Albert Einstein

--New Hampshire Underground
http://nhunderground.com/

-- Free State Project
http://www.freestateproject.org
Kanabia
31-05-2005, 12:46
I wonder; how would the locals like you forcing your agenda upon them?
Allanea
31-05-2005, 12:55
I wonder; how would the locals like you forcing your agenda upon them?

There is not enough people in the FSP to actually force any agenda on anybody, that's a common misconception. The impact would be made largely by activism - by making our voices heard, and persuading people to go for that agenda. 20,000 people in one place, all being active for their view, are harder to ignore than 20k people spread out all over the world.
Bottle
31-05-2005, 12:57
There is not enough people in the FSP to actually force any agenda on anybody, that's a common misconception. The impact would be made largely by activism - by making our voices heard, and persuading people to go for that agenda. 20,000 people in one place, all being active for their view, are harder to ignore than 20k people spread out all over the world.
Not to mention the fact that the radical Christian right doesn't seem terribly concerned about the feelings of all the people they force to deal with their agenda. I would actually LIKE to see some libertarians return the favor, if only for a little bit of variety.
Kanabia
31-05-2005, 13:00
Not to mention the fact that the radical Christian right doesn't seem terribly concerned about the feelings of all the people they force to deal with their agenda. I would actually LIKE to see some libertarians return the favor, if only for a little bit of variety.

Well, if this is happening in a Christian-right dominated state, i'd give it my full support :D

But I don't know anything at all about New Hampshire.
Monkeypimp
31-05-2005, 13:05
I would, but I'm not libertarian and don't want to move anywhere, let alone to the US.
Allanea
31-05-2005, 13:10
Not to mention the fact that the radical Christian right doesn't seem terribly concerned about the feelings of all the people they force to deal with their agenda. I would actually LIKE to see some libertarians return the favor, if only for a little bit of variety.


I think NH already is the most "libertarian" state in the Union, in fact more libertarians per capita then anywhere else. Did you sign up yet? :fluffle:
Swimmingpool
31-05-2005, 18:26
Blah, blah, ideologue libertarian rambling.

The government does protect us from amateur restaurant operators by regulation. "Freedom to look after your own safety" is little use when you're lying in a hopsital bed dying from food poisoning.

Everything that is really great and inspiring is created by the individual who can
labor in freedom. – Albert Einstein
Einstein was a socialist and an advocate of world government; do Libertarians know that?
Free Soviets
31-05-2005, 18:30
is the fsp still at that 5,000 to 6,000 person plateau they got stuck at once they actually chose a place to move to?
Alien Born
31-05-2005, 18:32
Einstein was a socialist and an advocate of world government; do Libertarians know that?

Great I'll take my political advice from a second rate mathematician and a publicity seeking physicist who knew nothing about politics and could not even balance his own cheque book.

If you are going to argue from authority, then at least use an appropriate one.

Re Free State Project. I probably have much more freedom where I am thankyou. I prefer not to move to the USA without much more motivation.
Werteswandel
31-05-2005, 18:34
Hmm. Though I don't agree with US libertarian politics, I'd be interested to see them try and put their beliefs into practice. Good luck to them.
Syniks
31-05-2005, 18:35
Migrating for Freedom <snip>--New Hampshire Underground
http://nhunderground.com/-- Free State Project
http://www.freestateproject.org
I fancy this project a bit better: http://freestatewyoming.org/.

I suppose New Hampshire is OK, but I like the Rockies better. Besides, I grew up there. :D
Sinuhue
31-05-2005, 18:35
Great I'll take my political advice from a second rate mathematician and a publicity seeking physicist who knew nothing about politics and could not even balance his own cheque book.

If you are going to argue from authority, then at least use an appropriate one.


Ouch!
LiazFaire
31-05-2005, 18:38
ok this is probably going to sound really rather dumb... and thats not something I like to do often if I can help it...

WTF is a 'libertarian'?!?

I always presumed someone who subscribed to the ideology and philosophy of 'liberalism' would be a 'liberal' so someone explain for me please :confused:

oh and for the record if anywhere I'd move somewhere *more* liberal not *less* (currently in UK)
Syniks
31-05-2005, 18:40
ok this is probably going to sound really rather dumb... and thats not something I like to do often if I can help it... WTF is a 'libertarian'?!?

I always presumed someone who subscribed to the ideology and philosophy of 'liberalism' would be a 'liberal' so someone explain for me please :confused:

Libertarians are Classical "Enlightenment-Era" Liberals who had to change their name when the word was co-opted by Socialists/Statists.
Werteswandel
31-05-2005, 18:45
Libertarians are Classical "Enlightenment-Era" Liberals who had to change their name when the word was co-opted by Socialists/Statists.
Only in the US though. Liberals are right-wingers in Australia and centrists in the UK.
Free Soviets
31-05-2005, 18:45
I fancy this project a bit better: http://freestatewyoming.org/.

I suppose New Hampshire is OK, but I like the Rockies better. Besides, I grew up there. :D

haha, sectarian splitters. you guys will fit in fine with the trots and stalinists.
Alien Born
31-05-2005, 18:45
Libertarians are Classical "Enlightenment-Era" Liberals who had to change their name when the word was co-opted by Socialists/Statists.

A good rough idea of what this implies can be found in the NS Classic Liberal Party Manifesto (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=418625)
Alien Born
31-05-2005, 18:47
Only in the US though. Liberals are right-wingers in Australia and centrists in the UK.

Can ypou not see the word "Classic" in his post. This is used to differentiate the thinking from the various groups that have adopted the term Liberal.
LiazFaire
31-05-2005, 18:49
ok some of that was a nice idea, the rest of that went down some very Very dangerous roads rather rapidly.

for everyones benefit

LIBERALISM has got NOTHING to do with SOCIALISM

now that thats cleared up enough of this silly libertarian malarky, it doesn't even sound like a sensible word.
Refused Party Program
31-05-2005, 18:59
haha, sectarian splitters. you guys will fit in fine with the trots and stalinists.

Hahahaha!
Werteswandel
31-05-2005, 19:03
Can ypou not see the word "Classic" in his post. This is used to differentiate the thinking from the various groups that have adopted the term Liberal.
I was referring to: "when the word was co-opted by Socialists/Statists"
Japhthor
31-05-2005, 19:09
Libertarians - Have you Signed Up For the Free State Project Yet?

Yes.

And I live in Canada.
Makatoto
31-05-2005, 19:15
Great I'll take my political advice from a second rate mathematician and a publicity seeking physicist who knew nothing about politics and could not even balance his own cheque book.

If you are going to argue from authority, then at least use an appropriate one.

I think you missed the point. They used a quote from Einstein at the end of the article, which was wholly inappropriate considering his beliefs. Not that you should be anti-liberatarian because Einstein was. Try reading the entirity of the post.
Kerleogh
31-05-2005, 19:21
I'd be interested in hearing more about the logistics of this. Are there 20,000 jobs going? How would the infrastructure of the state cope with the sudden influx of people?

Nice idealistic plan, but at some point reality has to bite.
Uginin
31-05-2005, 19:30
I think you missed the point. They used a quote from Einstein at the end of the article, which was wholly inappropriate considering his beliefs. Not that you should be anti-liberatarian because Einstein was. Try reading the entirity of the post.

Just because he was a Socialist does not mean he was anti-libertarian. He just had different views. Now, I used to support the Green Party, and then I went through a change to libertarianism. Does that mean I can't be libertarian?
Kervoskia
31-05-2005, 19:36
ok some of that was a nice idea, the rest of that went down some very Very dangerous roads rather rapidly.

for everyones benefit

LIBERALISM has got NOTHING to do with SOCIALISM

now that thats cleared up enough of this silly libertarian malarky, it doesn't even sound like a sensible word.
You're right!
Seangolia
31-05-2005, 20:04
Einstein was a socialist and an advocate of world government; do Libertarians know that?

Socialism is not evil. My god. THere are many types of socialism. Did you know Democracy is a type of Socialism? Of course many people push that thought in the back of their mind. Most people who equate socialism to being bad don't know a damn thing about it.

Oh, and why New Hampshire?
Myrmidonisia
31-05-2005, 20:16
I would have second thoughts about the whole thing. The founder is a PhD in political science -- strike one. He is on a tenure-track in SUNY-Buffalo -- strike two. It has the look of a research project that he is carrying out to impress his tenure committee. Probably will be abandonded after he gets it.
Refused Party Program
31-05-2005, 22:27
Oh, and why New Hampshire?

New Hampshire Ist In Ordnung Wenn Du Gerne Kampfst.
Ashmoria
31-05-2005, 22:45
live free or die!

why would anyone want to move to new hampshire. its COLD! its really cold. and snowy. its cold and snowy for way too much of the year.

although their lack of state services would give you a quick feel for what a libertarian state might be like. its probably gotten less "libertarian" since the massachusettsians started moving there in droves in the early 80s.
Rusiennne
31-05-2005, 22:54
Ugh, im disgusted, we can vote for ourselves, try to change our opinions with common sense,(also known as commercial politics, we watch those more then the people handing out pamphlets) dont invade us just because we dont agree with you!
Free Soviets
31-05-2005, 23:01
try to change our opinions with common sense, dont invade us just because we dont agree with you!

um, yeah. that's kind of the plan. 20,000 people wouldn't be much of an invasion anyway.
Rusiennne
31-05-2005, 23:03
um, yeah. that's kind of the plan. 20,000 people wouldn't be much of an invasion anyway.

see edited post above.
Uginin
31-05-2005, 23:07
Ugh, im disgusted, we can vote for ourselves, try to change our opinions with common sense,(also known as commercial politics, we watch those more then the people handing out pamphlets) dont invade us just because we dont agree with you!

Blame your govenor. He welcomed them publically. And most of your state DOES agree with libertarian ideals, actually.
Rusiennne
31-05-2005, 23:10
Blame your govenor. He welcomed them publically. And most of your state DOES agree with libertarian ideals, actually.

Yes, most do, so why do you need to recruit more advocates for the cause? We are already open to Libertarianism.

Does anyone know which state has the highest socialist population?
I think it might be NH...but im not sure.
Club House
31-05-2005, 23:10
Blah, blah, ideologue libertarian rambling.

The government does protect us from amateur restaurant operators by regulation. "Freedom to look after your own safety" is little use when you're lying in a hopsital bed dying from food poisoning.


Einstein was a socialist and an advocate of world government; do Libertarians know that?
and as the libertarians point out, hes the authority on everything. i say we do it just to piss the libertarians off.
Uginin
31-05-2005, 23:11
Does anyone know which state has the highest socialist population?
I think it might be NH...but im not sure.

Vermont, by a long shot.
Rusiennne
31-05-2005, 23:13
Vermont, by a long shot.

Ok, thanks :)
Uginin
31-05-2005, 23:16
Ok, thanks :)

Just for proof, they have a Socialist House member, who may run for Senator next election, to replace the 1 independent in the Senate.
Club House
31-05-2005, 23:16
Socialism is not evil. My god. THere are many types of socialism. Did you know Democracy is a type of Socialism? Of course many people push that thought in the back of their mind. Most people who equate socialism to being bad don't know a damn thing about it.

Oh, and why New Hampshire?
he didnt say it was. you were the one that equated someone saying socialism as someone saying evil. did you even read the whole thread? libertarians quoted einstein. he is almost the exact opposite of a libertarian i.e. a "socialist." no one said this was evil only that it was hypocrisy for a libertarian to quote einstein on social or political issues.
Myrmidonisia
31-05-2005, 23:16
So no one thinks it's odd that the movement's founder is happily on the track to tenure in New York, not New Hampshire? Doesn't look like he has enough confidence to move, does it?
Free Soviets
01-06-2005, 05:47
So no one thinks it's odd that the movement's founder is happily on the track to tenure in New York, not New Hampshire? Doesn't look like he has enough confidence to move, does it?

tenure doesn't mean that you are stuck somewhere forever. iirc, he's got several years to get tenure and then try to land a gig elsewhere.
Lacadaemon
01-06-2005, 05:52
tenure doesn't mean that you are stuck somewhere forever. iirc, he's got several years to get tenure and then try to land a gig elsewhere.

Which school is he at?
Myrmidonisia
01-06-2005, 12:01
tenure doesn't mean that you are stuck somewhere forever. iirc, he's got several years to get tenure and then try to land a gig elsewhere.
Tenure is only good at the University that grants it. No one in their right mind is going to work for tenure, get it granted, and then leave the place. It's effectively a job for life. You'd have to start all over as soon you took a job with another college.

They teach pseudo-science in New Hampshire, too, why wouldn't Sorens try for a job at UNH?
Myrmidonisia
01-06-2005, 12:02
Which school is he at?
The guy's name is Jason Sorens. According to the bio on Free State Project web site, he's at SUNY Buffalo. Doesn't make him sound like a real catch, either.
Makatoto
01-06-2005, 12:21
he didnt say it was. you were the one that equated someone saying socialism as someone saying evil. did you even read the whole thread? libertarians quoted einstein. he is almost the exact opposite of a libertarian i.e. a "socialist." no one said this was evil only that it was hypocrisy for a libertarian to quote einstein on social or political issues.

Thank you. Hopefully they'll understand this point, finally. The irony of them quoting a socialist who was in favour of a world government, eg, not Liberatarian, is too much.
Lacadaemon
01-06-2005, 12:48
The guy's name is Jason Sorens. According to the bio on Free State Project web site, he's at SUNY Buffalo. Doesn't make him sound like a real catch, either.

SUNY Buffalo? What a hypocrit. He should resign.

(Mind you, what can you expect from the SUNY system. It is after all, the high school after high school).
Myrmidonisia
01-06-2005, 14:03
SUNY Buffalo? What a hypocrit. He should resign.

(Mind you, what can you expect from the SUNY system. It is after all, the high school after high school).
I don't think he can resign as the founder of the project. He has quit as head of the org and just advises.

Maybe I'm just cynical...okay, I am cynical, and I think this just looks too much like a big scam. No one really wins except Sorens and he only gets to publish a few papers before everyone gets bored with it.
Free Soviets
01-06-2005, 19:27
Tenure is only good at the University that grants it. No one in their right mind is going to work for tenure, get it granted, and then leave the place. It's effectively a job for life. You'd have to start all over as soon you took a job with another college.

tenured profs change schools all the time. but you are right that nobody would change universities once they had tenure if they had to start all over again when they did so. which is why you are wrong - tenured profs making a lateral move usually take their tenured status with them.
Myrmidonisia
01-06-2005, 19:43
tenured profs change schools all the time. but you are right that nobody would change universities once they had tenure if they had to start all over again when they did so. which is why you are wrong - tenured profs making a lateral move usually take their tenured status with them.
My experience has been as an adjunct prof. No tenure, not tenure track. The univerisity that employed me, would grant tenure to anyone that was appointed or hired as a Professor. The new Assistant profs would be granted tenure after a five year probationary period. A reappointed assistant prof would get tenure automatically. So I guess you're right, in effect, if not in fact.