NationStates Jolt Archive

Inspired by another thread, I came to ponder what the world would be like if Hitler had been killed during the first World War. Would the Nazis achieve power in Germany without him? Would the Weimar Republic last through the shaky years of the depression, or would it collapse to a different authoritarian demagogue. Perhaps Hitler's absence would make way for a Communist revolution in Germany. Would the world avoid another world war, and if not, who would be the key players in the alternate war? Would it be a pre-nuclear war between the capitalist west, and the communist east? How would our history change, and what would our world be like today? I look forward to your thoughts. :)

Many people think that Hitler was only the "tip of the iceberg" - and that many others would have filled his place - but, as Alan Bullock says, he took a number of decisions that few if any other leaders would have, like the decision to march into the Rhineland - everyone advised against that. He also brought the Nazi Party back to its feet - Germany might have been just as nationalist as without him, but possibly in different hands, like Rosa Luxembourg's.

well it depends on what u belief in.

if u belive that we can make our own destiny, then sure, witout hitler, things would be diffrent. if a sint there, b wouldnt happen.

if u belive that we can never change history(whats done is done and couldnt have been done anyother way), then some other guy like hitler would ahve come to power and history will continue as normal.

or u might belief that history will never change, buts tis just when and how it happes that would change. so ww2 would happen later....say.....2006? and it would be fought by diffrent ppl with diffrent tech etc etc.

Liskeinland

Personaly, I don't think there were any German leaders at the time who had the same combination of charisma, mad genious, and fanatical commitment which served Hitler so well in achieving his goals. Honestly, I think that without Hitler, the Nazi party in Germany would remain on the margins of the German political awareness, as its modern day European counterparts do today. Rosa Luxembourg as dictator of Germany, you say? Now there's an intriguing thought indeed. I can't even begin to imagine what that would be like...

Hitler was like Osama bin Laden: a member of a small group that takes the lead and hopes the masses follow when the time is right for their specific ideals. This is a common occurence in history, and the specific person that does it is not truly relevant for the event to occur.

His charisma certainly helped, and many of the things the nazi's did would have been done differently under someone else - but there would probably still have been a nazimovement if he had not be around. Not identical, but similar.

Who knows if who would have remained in Power of the German Worker's Party without a Hitler. Fact is, the Treaty of Versailles caused immense problems that would have erupted into something sooner or later. Versailles was one thing every German agreed on at that time, from communists to nazis and everything in between.

Hitler was like Osama bin Laden: a member of a small group that takes the lead and hopes the masses follow when the time is right for their specific ideals.

Hmm. I don't see the parallel between the two figures. Osama bin Laden is not the leader of a small group, but that of a world-spanning terrorist network. One, which I might add, was originaly set up, trained, and funded by the CIA to combat Soviet influence in the middle east. Osama bin Laden is therefore, for all intents and purposes, a rogue agent. I think twenty or thirty years from now, we'll find out the real reasons for Al-Queda turning on their American backers. But to draw parallels between Hitler and Osama bin Laden is like drawing parallels between Czeczen terrorists and American rebel forces during the revolution.

This is a common occurence in history, and the specific person that does it is not truly relevant for the event to occur.

Without Hitler, the Nazi party, like a hundred other organizations of its caliber which existed in Germany during the post-war years, had no chance of making its way into the German mass awareness. Hitler was, if nothing else, a brilliant populist, and it was he who managed to tap millions of German minds, by way of what are today considered basic marketing strategy. He was a man ahead of his time, and I doubt there we any who would be able to pull off what he managed to do. Hitler was paramount to Nazi success, without him, they would remain a handful of ex-soldiers whining over their beers.

His charisma certainly helped, and many of the things the nazi's did would have been done differently under someone else - but there would probably still have been a nazimovement if he had not be around. Not identical, but similar.

I would say that if Hitler had not been present, then his greatest rivals for power, the Communists, would have seized the day. They had attempted, and almost succeeded, to do so before. If they were allowed to continue their subversive activities into the 1930s, I think that with a little support from Stalin they would have no problems toppling the Weimar Republic. That's just an opinion, though.

It was Hitlers fate to survive WW1 and lead Germany into WW2. nothing happens for no reason.
It was his destiny, he was never going to die fighting in the trenches in France, and it was this experience that toughened him up to get the necessary respect from the GWP that made him their leader, and set him on the way to power.

GenX']well it depends on what u belief in.

if u belive that we can make our own destiny, then sure, witout hitler, things would be diffrent. if a sint there, b wouldnt happen.

if u belive that we can never change history(whats done is done and couldnt have been done anyother way), then some other guy like hitler would ahve come to power and history will continue as normal.

or u might belief that history will never change, buts tis just when and how it happes that would change. so ww2 would happen later....say.....2006? and it would be fought by diffrent ppl with diffrent tech etc etc.


I think this is a gross oversimplification. To some degree, these hypotheticals will boil down to one person's opinion versus another's, but there are some fairly objective points you can make, too.

Consider some of the empirical data. The Conservative government under Hindenberg brought Hitler and co. to the Chancelllory because of the huge personal popularity he held with the Mittelschtandt, many of his early political and military maneuvers (such as the re-militarization of the Rhineland) were strongly opposed by all of his advisors, and so much of the ideology of national socialism was the specific product of his personal philosophy. It's partly for this reason that we can still get a clear picture into the mind of the Nazi regime by reading Mein Kampf.

This contrasts with, for example, Stalin, who seized power with the assistance of and over the heads of other potential dictators. Had he died in the 1910s, Trotsky, Zinoviev, or Kamenev might all have come to power and done similar things. Certainly, the end result would look different (Trotsky's conception of what the Soviet Union should be was different than Stalin's, but not as much as people tend to believe), but the outcome didn't depend as radically on Stalin as it did on Hitler.

Filthy Commies would have taken over.
Um probably no Second World War
But to draw parallels between Hitler and Osama bin Laden is like drawing parallels between Czeczen terrorists and American rebel forces during the revolution.
terrorists? please Stalin Sowed the seeds now they shall reap the whirlwind!

It was Hitlers fate to survive WW1 and lead Germany into WW2. nothing happens for no reason.
It was his destiny, he was never going to die fighting in the trenches in France, and it was this experience that toughened him up to get the necessary respect from the GWP that made him their leader, and set him on the way to power.

Personaly, I believe in free will rather than some mystical "destiny". For me, its much easier to believe that millions of Americans are unsuccessful because of their own short comings and/or difficult situations, rather than they were simply "destined" to live unfullfilling lives. Anyhow, I didn't ask if it was his destiny, I asked what you think history would be like if he were killed.

Filthy Commies would have taken over.
Um probably no Second World War

terrorists? please Stalin Sowed the seeds now they shall reap the whirlwind!

Yes indeed, it makes perfect sense for "freedomfighters" to terrorize innocent Russian women and children. Please. :rolleyes:

an interesting question. Not sure of the answer. Wonder would the US still believe in isolationist policies

I think, if there had not been Hitler, Germany would have gone down and to sub-zero level until 1960, due to poverty, unemployment and general unhappiness in society. At the point of his election, most Germans were looking for someone to get them out of their misery, whether forced on them (eg "Black Thursday") or self-caused.

One must admit that what Hitler and his party did was crating jobs for millions of unemployed Germans by ordering Highways and new builfings to be built; setting up a highly social network (okay, only for "Arians", that's the bad point, I know) which in some parts has been taken over by today's German government; and -and I know, this might sound crazy: If there had not been WW II, the Germany we know today would simply not exist.

Had this country not been so widely destroyed throughout the war, had there not been the losses of industry an population as it was, Germany had never had a reason to rebuild and re-organize, and there had never been what is called "the economy-wonder" of the 50's and 60's. Also had there never been a good reason for the nations to give the jews theis own territory, so Israel would not exist, either. Furthermore, the War pushed science and industry forward to creating more effective stuff and techniques for the military, most of which today can be found in any modern household.

I surely do not wish to excuse what happened under the nazi regime, not in the least, but I want to make a point that the world would surely not be what it is today if there had not been those years under Hitler.

I've usually thought of Fascism as a social response to the very aggressive attempts by Communists to take over Depression-era Germany. You could see hints of how Bolshevism provoked anti-semitism in Russia and the Ukraine in 1918 when resistance movements and the White Army were retaliating against it with pogroms.

In the 1920s Soviet intelligence officers were coordinating military assaults throughout Central and Eastern Europe, and it pissed alot of people off. Combine that with the French military occupation of German lands and the enormous unemployment and it's like a dry forest waiting for a lightning strike. I'm sure Hitler wasn't the only opportunist who could have successfully exploited that situation, as it would have been any politician's dream come true.

I've usually thought of Fascism as a social response to the very aggressive attempts by Communists to take over Depression-era Germany. You could see hints of how Bolshevism provoked anti-semitism in Russia and the Ukraine in 1918 when resistance movements and the White Army were retaliating against it with pogroms.

In the 1920s Soviet intelligence officers were coordinating military assaults throughout Central and Eastern Europe, and it pissed alot of people off. Combine that with the French military occupation of German lands and the enormous unemployment and it's like a dry forest waiting for a lightning strike. I'm sure Hitler wasn't the only opportunist who could have successfully exploited that situation, as it would have been any politician's dream come true.

Well, a challenge then, present to me one viable candidate to have filled Hitler's shoes.

It was Hitlers fate to survive WW1 and lead Germany into WW2. nothing happens for no reason.
It was his destiny, he was never going to die fighting in the trenches in France, and it was this experience that toughened him up to get the necessary respect from the GWP that made him their leader, and set him on the way to power.

I guess it's a pity from Hitlers point of view that he didn't realize what his destiny was back in world war one, otherwise he could have run across no man's land, guns blazing, and taken out the entire French army second handed. After all, he couldn't have died, as it was his destiny to become leader of Germany. And imagine how much easier it would have been to create the myth of the Aryan superman, if he really was a superman. Silly Hitler.

I guess it's a pity from Hitlers point of view that he didn't realize what his destiny was back in world war one, otherwise he could have run across no man's land, guns blazing, and taken out the entire French army second handed. After all, he couldn't have died, as it was his destiny to become leader of Germany. And imagine how much easier it would have been to create the myth of the Aryan superman, if he really was a superman. Silly Hitler.

:D funny

I surely do not wish to excuse what happened under the nazi regime, not in the least, but I want to make a point that the world would surely not be what it is today if there had not been those years under Hitler.

You're right, the world wouldn't have been what it is today. For one thing there'd be about 3,000 Russian and European villages still standing.

Also the unbegotten grandchildren of about 40 million Jews, Slavs, Germans, Americans, Japanese, etc, etc would be around. That's a lot of people.

I'm not German, so forgive me for being a bit skeptical about whether the continued existence of a nation is worth that much. Personally I'd rather my own country break into a million pieces than exact such a heavy loss on the rest of the world.

You're right, the world wouldn't have been what it is today. For one thing there'd be about 3,000 Russian and European villages still standing.

Also the unbegotten grandchildren of about 40 million Jews, Slavs, Germans, Americans, Japanese, etc, etc would be around. That's a lot of people.

I'm not German, so forgive me for being a bit skeptical about whether the continued existence of a nation is worth that much. Personally I'd rather my own country break into a million pieces than exact such a heavy loss on the rest of the world.

Very well said.

I guess it's a pity from Hitlers point of view that he didn't realize what his destiny was back in world war one, otherwise he could have run across no man's land, guns blazing, and taken out the entire French army second handed. After all, he couldn't have died, as it was his destiny to become leader of Germany. And imagine how much easier it would have been to create the myth of the Aryan superman, if he really was a superman. Silly Hitler.

:rolleyes: idiot.

Hitler gave the German people what they wanted. Self-respect! Jews are/were destined to die.

idiot.

I agree with you there. Hitler certainly was an idiot.

Well, a challenge then, present to me one viable candidate to have filled Hitler's shoes.

Given his resume prior to being a politician, I don't think that would be too difficult. Plenty of people in the party had greater abilities at propaganda and manipulation. Himmler, Hess, Ley, and Goebbels readily come to mind. It's not like Hitler ran the whole show by himself.

I actually believe that, had someone else replaced him earlier on, Germany might actually have won WWII. eg someone who would have ordered troops at Stalingrad to protect the flanks, who wouldn't have overriden the generals' judgements in the field, who wouldn't have taken personal control over and screw up the most pivotal operations of the war, etc.

Hitler made some very unpopular mistakes throughout his stay. It's not often that subordinates in all branches of the party and military plot to assasinate their leader.

Personaly, I believe in free will rather than some mystical "destiny". For me, its much easier to believe that millions of Americans are unsuccessful because of their own short comings and/or difficult situations, rather than they were simply "destined" to live unfullfilling lives. Anyhow, I didn't ask if it was his destiny, I asked what you think history would be like if he were killed.

To flog a dead horse, he was never going to be killed in WW1.
He was predestined to die in 1945, and nothing was going to change that.

But for arguements sake.... the Communist party would have taken over the Weimar Republic, and linked with Stalin probably in the 40's creating a similar Eastern Soviet bloc, dividing Poland between them.
The US may have either linked up with France and Britain, after successfully defeating Japan in the Pacific war with the aid of Britain and her colonys.
The US and British Empire defeat Japan by driving her forces back to her mainland with overwhelming firepower, they then proceed to firebomb her major citys into oblivion.
They then isolate Japan from the rest of the world with a blockade, finally facing starvation and a completely collapsed ecconomy, the Emperor surrenders, and orders his population to surrender, which they do.
The British empire wouldnt have crumbled probably either then, as it was able to divert all her attention with Americas help to defeat Japan.
As the Nazis didnt come to power and persecute the Jews, invaluble Jewish scientists didnt flee to America in the 30's, therefore not creating the nuclear bombs in the Manhattan project of 1943-45.
Instead they remain unpercecuted in Communist Germany, go to Russia for heavy financial incentive, and help Stalin develop the first sucessful nuclear testing of weapons in Siberia, in 1950.
Britain and America knowing for some time since the mid fortys of the nuclear research, have still not sucessfully tested a bomb as of 1952, Stalin threatens the west with nuclear annialation unless they surrender immediately to Soviet forces, France and Britain immediately capitulate after Paris and London are incinerated with two nukes dropped on each from high altitude bombers.
The British Empire looking at a new dawn, capitulates instead in 1952.
America sues for peace just in time, backed up with its own sucessful nuclear tests in Nevada, with the help of German Jewish scientists who defected there in 1951.
Communist Europe comes into being and is ruled by the Russians and their German lackeys until present day.
Only uprising in Hungary was greeted with an atom bomb on Budapest in 1956.
China also goes communist under Mao Tse Tung, and takes her revenge in 1959 on Japan for the rape of Nanking in 1933.
Japan is obliterated under a land invasion, and then reduced to a vassel state of the new Chinese Empire (CEC) that includes Taiwan, Korea, Mongolia, Tibet, Vietnam, Laos and Malayasia.
The Two other powers of 2005 are now The Communist Directive of Europe, (CDE) run west of Germany, by Germany, and the east of Germany By Russia.
This also includes now most of the middle east and the northern half of Africa.
A growing Islamic movement in the seventies was brutally suppressed with nukes dropped on Baghdad, Cairo, Ryhihadd and Mecca.
This was followed up with a brutal pogrom on all muslim clerics, the last one rumoured to be seen in Afghanistan, fleeing for his life in 1982.
The Western Alliance (TWA) makes up the third power, consisting of the United States, Canada, Mexico, Most of South America, India, The South African Confederacy, Australia, New Zealand and some pacific Island nations.

All powers are heavily armed with nukes, and all have their own sucessfull space programs.
A simultaneous three race to the moon was won by the Chinese in 1971, who although planting the red flag there first, thus as agreed, claiming complete ownership, hadnt enough fuel to get home, and so still orbit the Earth.
The TWA and CDE ships, beaten by less than 2 and 3 hrs by the Chinese, returned sucessfully.

In 1985 Vatican III, by Pope John Paul II, condemns growing loosening morality in the West, and fearing its moral discinigration from within, condemns all marriages and unions involving same sex marriage as evil, and not acceptable to God. This is then supported in full by all TWA and CDE governments.
A full crack down in 1986 is organised world wide on what is termed as simply forces of evil on our youth, John Lennon, speaking from hospital condemns this as hypocracy and paranoia gone mad.
America invades Colombia in 1987, and executes all the druglords within a month.
Russia with support from China, wipes out heroin distributation completely in 1989.
What is seen as a great possibility of the three powers uniting peacefully, and celebrated at huge rock concerts, goes sadly astray with the attack on an Indian battleship by China in 1990, and two chinese firestar jets shot down by Indian F/A-18 Jets near Sri Lanka in 1992.
America comes to Indias aid threatening full nuclear attack on China unless she withdraws her armed forces gathering on Indias Eastern borders.
Meanwhile Communist Europe sizes the opportunity to invade the South African Confederacy, the South Africans prompty fire a nuke at Berlin, which is intercepted by American F/20 Eagles over Kenya and destroyed.
The world breathes a sigh of relief, and the Communists retreat back to North Africa.
The world situation had reached such a dangerous and volatile point, that a sucessfull summit was reached between the three powers leaders at the Maldives conference of 1992, to simply not interfere with each others interests, or beliefs, and to call a fifty year truce, while the solar sysem was explored by various companys representing the CDE, the TWA, and the CEC.
Whether this truce can hold or not in space, remains to be seen.

I agree with you there. Hitler certainly was an idiot.

No, not really.
He was however, completely and utterly deranged.

Yes indeed, it makes perfect sense for "freedomfighters" to terrorize innocent Russian women and children. Please. :rolleyes:
Glad to see you understand! ;)

Hmm. I don't see the parallel between the two figures. Osama bin Laden is not the leader of a small group, but that of a world-spanning terrorist network. <snip>

Which is still very small compared to the group they claim to represent. Al Queda claims to fight for all Muslems. Hitler was somewhat more succesfull in getting massfollowing; but if the climate in Germany would not have been open to his ideas already he would never had been able to rise to power.
Hitler was indeed ahead of his time - which is exactly my point. You get a small group of people that take the lead; and to be succesful this group needs special talents. Not necessarily all concentrated in one man though - and a different man would have done many things differently. Doesn't mean that the "red line" would have changed.

I would say that if Hitler had not been present, then his greatest rivals for power, the Communists, would have seized the day. They had attempted, and almost succeeded, to do so before. If they were allowed to continue their subversive activities into the 1930s, I think that with a little support from Stalin they would have no problems toppling the Weimar Republic. That's just an opinion, though.

And who says they would not have implemented quite a lot of the ideas now associated with Hitler ;) ?

this is what i think would happen. it all revolves around the hidenburg. some say the hidenburg was sabatoged, and that's what made it blow up. some say it was sabatoged because there were german spies on it.
Some dude like hitler but not as bad, would take control of germany. we wouldn't be as suspicious of him, because he's not killing jews. but he would plan on it. since we would have been as suspicious, the german spies would have gotten off the unsabatoged hidenburg, spied on US scientists who were working on the atom bomb, then they figured out the blueprints, brought them back to germany, and the leader would drop bombs on london, new york, washington d.c., moscow, etc. and he would rule the world.

WWII was an important event in the history of the development of modern ideals. Although war is never a good thing, it is war which is the prime mover for social change. Hitler was not the only cause of WWII but was THE central figure and thus, without him, the very nature of that conflict, if that conflict had even occurred would have been completely different. Thus, his death, I would argue would have delayed much needed social developments and so would have been a bad thing, no matter the harshness of that verdict. Racism is no longer tolerated as a scientific principle, aggression by states is now firmly opposed and European Integration is a very visible reality.

Also, I find it slightly strange that Churchill and Hitler were at one point only a few miles of each other during WWI and were both on the same part of the Western Front. Just thought I would throw that in.

Oh yippie. Another thread revolving around abstract and purposeless historical hypothesising...

The League of Nations should've followed Pres. Wilson's Fourteen Points. Plain and simple, Hitler or not.

The League of Nations should've followed Pres. Wilson's Fourteen Points. Plain and simple, Hitler or not.


So they should have done what the US told them even though they weren't willing to join?

If it wasn't Hitler, it was going to be some other charismatic Nazi.

If it wasn't Hitler, it was going to be some other charismatic Nazi.

I have to disagree, the only other leading Nazi with anywhere near the same level of charisma was Goering, and he also had some fame. But he drifted a bit during the 1919 -1922 time period and just as easily could have done something else or simply ended up as a barnstormer like Udet did for a while.

The division Hitler was assigned to, and his combat job (he earned his Iron Cross 2nd class the hard way, doing a risky job as a runner / messenger during the entire campaign in the West from 1915 on) could very easily have led to his death. Just the right shell at the right time and the world changes.

I guess other plans were in the works if you believe Fate or God had a hand in it.

I don't think any of the other Nazi's could have made them the force they became at the time the opportunity presented itself. More likely a more conservative monarchist type party or something not as extreme right wing would have gotten the support from the major German corporations (that money was absolutely decisive in getting Hitler to the Chancellorship at the right time).

Lots of good books talk about his rise, and they all agree that external money from the conservative elites made it possible for the Nazis to get to power, and that Hitler was the man who instituted the party discipline needed to make the Nazis a viable political party at the crucial time.

The rest of them just weren't in his league.