NationStates Jolt Archive

Is the EU in crisis?good question...I dont have an complete answer...but this Britsh newspaper has something to say
__________________________________________
Crisis for Europe as France rejects EU constitution.
By John Lichfield in Paris
30 May 2005
France has resoundingly rejected the proposed European Union constitution, plunging the EU into crisis and French politics into confusion.

The result of the referendum was a massive 56 per cent for the "no", against 44 per cent for the "yes", according to Dominique de Villepin, the Interior Minister. An unusually high turnout of 70 per cent of the 42 million voters had briefly raised hopes that the great legion of "undecided" might still tip the outcome to the "yes".

But the results confirmed the predictions of opinion polls that a majority of French voters would repudiate all mainstream parties and plunge the EU into one of the deepest crises in its history. The French "no" is likely to encourage a Dutch "no" on Wednesday.

Rejection by a large, founding member state at the heart of Europe will, in effect, kill the proposed constitution stone dead. This would, at the least, force the enlarged 25-nation union to stumble on with institutions and rules designed for the original club of six. But last night in their initial reactions, EU leaders urged the continuation of the treaty's ratification process.

At worst, many pro-European politicians fear that the French "no" * rooted in a surge of protectionist, anti-free-market feeling and fear of eastern European competition on the French left * could destroy Europe's ambitions to speak with one political voice and provoke a gradual unwinding of the Europe-wide single market.

©2005 Independent News & Media (UK) Ltd.
____________________________________

The least that can be said is that...the US dollar and US aconomy will benefit...as the Euro takes a hit...

Ohhh goody, Cheaper Euro means our exports become more competitive! The US starts buying more from us, thus boosting their already gigantic deficits!


Yes, yes, we all know what the doomsayers say. And what the British newspapers say too..... and we keep smiling!

Hurray for France! They did the right thing. Opening a totally-free market can do serious harm.

Hurray for France! They did the right thing. actually they did the extreme-rigth thing...AND the extreme left-thing too... :mp5: :sniper:

left and righ hapilly joined hands to shut down the EU constitution.

Chirac is the ultimate uniter :D

good question...I dont have an complete answer...but this Britsh newspaper has something to say
__________________________________________
Crisis for Europe as France rejects EU constitution.
By John Lichfield in Paris
30 May 2005
France has resoundingly rejected the proposed European Union constitution, plunging the EU into crisis and French politics into confusion.

The result of the referendum was a massive 56 per cent for the "no", against 44 per cent for the "yes", according to Dominique de Villepin, the Interior Minister. An unusually high turnout of 70 per cent of the 42 million voters had briefly raised hopes that the great legion of "undecided" might still tip the outcome to the "yes".

But the results confirmed the predictions of opinion polls that a majority of French voters would repudiate all mainstream parties and plunge the EU into one of the deepest crises in its history. The French "no" is likely to encourage a Dutch "no" on Wednesday.

Rejection by a large, founding member state at the heart of Europe will, in effect, kill the proposed constitution stone dead. This would, at the least, force the enlarged 25-nation union to stumble on with institutions and rules designed for the original club of six. But last night in their initial reactions, EU leaders urged the continuation of the treaty's ratification process.

At worst, many pro-European politicians fear that the French "no" * rooted in a surge of protectionist, anti-free-market feeling and fear of eastern European competition on the French left * could destroy Europe's ambitions to speak with one political voice and provoke a gradual unwinding of the Europe-wide single market.

©2005 Independent News & Media (UK) Ltd.
____________________________________

The least that can be said is that...the US dollar and US aconomy will benefit...as the Euro takes a hit...


Actually it will have no real effect on the U.S. except for a heartfelt congratulations from many of us who are glad to see that our friends and allys will not have their national sovereignty usurped for the sake of a bunch of International Conglomerates... (and for the record I am a conservative freemarket independent. Not a liberal or socialist by any strech of the imagination) Once again, congratulations to all, but be warned, they will next try and shove it down your throat without a vote.

The result of the referendum was a massive 56 per cent for the "no", against 44 per cent for the "yes", according to Dominique de Villepin, the Interior Minister. An unusually high turnout of 70 per cent of the 42 million voters had briefly raised hopes that the great legion of "undecided" might still tip the outcome to the "yes".

How is 56% massive? What the hell would you have called 70%?


Rejection by a large, founding member state at the heart of Europe will, in effect, kill the proposed constitution stone dead.

In it's present form, yes. But thats the beauty of democracy. You start over and get something people like

Actually it will have no real effect on the U.S. except for a heartfelt congratulations from many of us...I hear a lot of that...

some Americans players where suggesting we should write letters to french cictizens to ask them to vote NO.

some Americans players where suggesting we should write letters to french cictizens to ask them to vote NO.
So you wanted them to vote yes..?

How many Europeans are worried about the response by governments to the no vote by the French? The voters say NO and the governments kind of shake their head and decide to ignore it. All of the government responses I have read say that they will continue to move forward to ratify the constitution. They also talk about just having another vote in the future about the same subject.
If you say no to what we want we will just keep putting the same choice in front of you until you agree with what we want you to do. They did that in Ireland if I remember right. the Irish voted no on some referendum regarding the EU so the Irish government just reintroduced it, changed their argument and got the yes vote they wanted.
You will keep voting until you do what we want doesn't seem very democratic. Is this really what is happening or am I misreading the situation?

Free trade doesn't work. Mexico, Canada, and the US have a free trade agreement, and all that happens is the Americans only honour it when they feel like it. If you have one country in a bad mood, everything can fall apart. Also, the idea of a common constitution for the EU sorta scares me ... and I don't know why,

I hear a lot of that...

some Americans players where suggesting we should write letters to french cictizens to ask them to vote NO.

As one of them I can say that it was suggested in jest/sarcasm. Most uf us in the west really have no opinion on European politics, and if we do, we know enough to keep it to ourselves. We don't live there so our opinion does not really matter - and we are not so arrogant as to kid ourselves into thinking it does.... Unlike certain others on this globe who go around sticking their noses into other nations elections.

As one of them I can say that it was suggested in jest/sarcasm. Most uf us in the west really have no opinion on European politics, and if we do, we know enough to keep it to ourselves. We don't live there so our opinion does not really matter - and we are not so arrogant as to kid ourselves into thinking it does.... Unlike certain others on this globe who go around sticking their noses into other nations elections.

While I agree with your annoyance over Europeans lecturing us about our election and government it is a dangerous argument you make. We do go around the globe sticking our noses into other nations elections. Recently in the Ukraine we did just that. We also invade nations to change their government completely, that is a hell of a sticking of the nose. I like regime change, I mean if you can do it successfully then go for it, but. . .well I have no good way to finish that sentence so I won't.

How is 56% massive? What the hell would you have called 70%?

56 is massive where 51% is a mandate.

actually they did the extreme-rigth thing...AND the extreme left-thing too... :mp5: :sniper:

left and righ hapilly joined hands to shut down the EU constitution.

Chirac is the ultimate uniter :D

Do you have a difficulty spelling the word "right"?

Maybe now Europeans (excluding the French of course) will understand why the US has such a hate relation with France.

Free trade doesn't work. Mexico, Canada, and the US have a free trade agreement, and all that happens is the Americans only honour it when they feel like it. If you have one country in a bad mood, everything can fall apart. Also, the idea of a common constitution for the EU sorta scares me ... and I don't know why,

Free trade does work, unfortunately what the US, Mexico and Canada have doesn't have a thing to do with free trade except where it benefits already established huge Corporations. It is a scam designed to provide cheap labor and enable the global monopolization of the worlds industries, while maintaining unsurmountable barriers to entry for competition.

good for France, *applause*

Do you have a difficulty spelling the word "right"?but i have absolutely no problem spelling the word "left"...even without a spell-checker...

Free Trade does work. It just needs the committment of every party not to interfere, and the US lacks that in every respect. Which is why NAFTA is such a joke and doesn't do much good to anyone but the Americans (who ironically moan about how many jobs they lost)
-----
But Free Trade isn't really the issue here. The French hate the idea of their system being changed, but that's okay. It's up to their Government to inform them that this constitution was mainly political, and not economics-based.
-----
The idea was to streamline the system and to distribute power more evenly among countries. To get rid of excess bureaucracy and to increase direct democracy throughout.
Which is exactly what the critics of the EU always use against it. And instead of voting to improve it, they hamper the process.
I would think they aren't interested in improvement, but in derailment.
-----
And why does a nation need sovereignty? Why? Tell me!
All that means is that your country calls itself sovereign. How does that benefit you?
How is that better than being member of a $8 Trillion economy with 200 million consumers? One with the weigh behind to actually influence world events?

As to the British people here (it always seems to be the British who open their mouths against the EU - obviously not all of them, but many nonetheless):
If you don't want to be part of "the continent", then start your own continent! You could call it Britainland!
Start a referendum to leave the EU all together. See what happens next.
We'll have one less protectionist obstruction to deal with.
And you can join NAFTA.

What it mainly means is that heads are gonna role in the French government, not Chirac mind you some some high profile people.

Vive le revolution

What it mainly means is that heads are gonna role in the French government, not Chirac ...Chirac will not be reelected...

Chirac will not be reelected...
maybe not but he's gonna take some people with him due to this sham

The entire situation sucks. Really. The only area on earth with a good chance of forming a pioneering new peaceful confederation decided they don't feel like it? WTF? Europe could have shown the world the way to peace and cooperation - a continent at each others throats as little as 60 years ago becoming a strong union, but non.

And what about as a counter to the US? That would have been good as well... but non. Now the US can be secure in it's assaholic domination for at least the next 20 years, or whenever china/india catch up.

If I were French, I would have voted Oui in a heartbeat. I got the skinny on the Constitution, and it seemed like a good document.

I tell you, for the love of all that is holy, please to god - Europeans pull something better out of your ass right quick, and save that noble experiment called the EU from turmoil, stagnation and ultimately an untimely death.

It is largely understood in France that the "No" vote was not actually about the EU constitution, but a way for the French people to voice displeasure with Jacques Chirac. Any referendum question on any subject would probably have garnered the same response: the people would have voted against whatever stance Chirac took. A mammoth case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. But that's how the French are.

I find it interesting when Americans argue that the EU would be a bad idea as it would entail a loss of sovereignty of the individual states joining it...how exactly do you think the United States of America was created?

Do you have a difficulty spelling the word "right"?
With all that goes on here at NS, you're popping someone for a transposition typo? Give it a break, 12345543211.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
Teh NatoinStates Fourm Moderatro

*snip*

I find it interesting when Americans argue that the EU would be a bad idea as it would entail a loss of sovereignty of the individual states joining it...how exactly do you think the United States of America was created?


Exactly right. Nice job, not a single person mentioned it before, they talked about NAFTA with Canada and Mexico, missing entirely the real agreement. The forming of the constitution and the number of states that had to be appeased that they wouldn't end up on the dirty side of the stick (so to speak).

Maybe the EU people should go read about how they did it in America then.

You have to be careful though when you start to appease, you end up writing such a vague composition about rules that two hundred years after the fact people will wonder what the amendments really meant and they will fight over the rules that had to be written vague because otherwise some group or another (state or country) wouldn't have signed it otherwise...

End of the EU?

Nahhh. Just means they are will rework it to win over more votes.

French comments I heard is that it will only be a matter of time.....

Didn't take Chirac long to take out his frustration on his government


http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/article.aspx?as=article&f=uk_-_olgbtopnews&t=4023&id=908857&d=20050531&do=http://newsbox.msn.co.uk&i=http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/mediaexportlive&ks=0&mc=5&ml=ma&lc=en&ae=windows-1252

56 is massive where 51% is a mandate.
Espescially when dealing with so many people. That 7% up and above the yes vote represents several million people. In my book, that counts as massive.

France braces for referendum's fallout

By Elizabeth Bryant (UPI) May 27, 2005
PARIS -- Maybe Europe's future -- not to mention that of France and a constellation of French politicians -- lies in the hands of a split-second decision Sunday by the likes of Caroline Parrault and Paul Kersen.
...
Since the country's tortured 2002 elections -- when far-right leader Jean-Marie le Pen placed second in the first round of voting -- no issue has so mesmerized and divided France than the upcoming vote on the European charter.
The referendum has dominated newspaper coverage, television talk shows and dinner-table conversations for weeks.
...Jacques Chirac warned that France would be weaker in every way if voters veto the charter.
"Rejecting the treaty will be seen by Europeans as a no to Europe," Chirac added in an address broadcasted by the country's television and radio stations. "It will open a period of divisions, of doubts and uncertainty."
http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050527-113429-8619r

PARIS -- Maybe Europe's future -- not to mention that of France and a constellation of French politicians -- lies in the hands of a split-second decision Sunday by the likes of Caroline Parrault and Paul Kersen.


Who are Caroline and Paul again???
Holding hands as they stepped out of a Paris metro station Friday, the two college students confessed to being more focused on final exams than on France's May 29 referendum on the European constitution Oh, right, them. Nice to see that they have their priorities straight. I wonder how they voted...
Since the country's tortured 2002 elections -- when far-right leader Jean-Marie le Pen placed second in the first round of voting -- no issue has so mesmerized and divided France than the upcoming vote on the European charter. OOH!! since 2002!?! Well, at least they had almost 3 good years...
"Rejecting the treaty will be seen by Europeans as a no to Europe," Chirac added in an address... Oddly enough - speaking as 'other' European - it is seen as another cock-up by Mr. Chirac. Had he told that "I will step down and leave the presidential palace immediately, if you vote 'oui'" in that address of his, the vote would have been 80-20 FOR it.

Nothing is as hilarious as 3 days old news though. Thanks.

Who are Caroline and Paul again???.they are like "john smith"...like "average joe"

Got it.

Nothing is as hilarious as 3 days old news though. Thanks.you are welcome.

Oddly enough - speaking as 'other' European - it is seen as another cock-up by Mr. Chirac. Had he told that "I will step down and leave the presidential palace immediately, if you vote 'oui'" in that address of his, the vote would have been 80-20 FOR it.why not vote against Chirac on the presidential election...on the next election...actually why not vote against chirac on the PREVIOUS election...

why screw all the EU over selfish anti-Chirac issues?

why screw all the EU over selfish anti-Chirac issues?

I'm not about to criticize the EU for its own political choices - quite unlike the EU's criticism of US political choices.

It's their country and their government and their way. Let them do it their way.

It's their country and their government and their way. Let them do it their way.Its my free speech speech... I was pissed when the US relected the Chimp...and I am pissed at the french now...

and If the French have sensible ears...I suggest they avoid my posts for the next few days...

Its my free speech speech... I was pissed when the US relected the Chimp...and I am pissed at the french now...

and If the French have sensible ears...I suggest they don read my posts for the next few days...

I heard an analysis on National Public Radio.

The common Frenchman, outside of Paris, is tired of the "elites" running the country. Tired of Paris, tired of Brussels (whom they see as more "elites"), and tired of the current government.

It is VERY similar to the "tired of the Democratic Party elites" or "tired of the Hollywood elites", and VERY similar to the urban/rural breakdown that happened here in the US.

why screw all the EU over selfish anti-Chirac issues?
Your guess is as good as mine.

It seems, though, that Chirac promised the people a referendum in a situation, where he/they expected the 'oui' vote to win. But things change - he didn't promise this last week. It also seems that by this referendum, he tried to boost his stock before the presidential election of 2007.
(This info isn't fresh from my ass, btw... this is what political analysts here say. I wouldn't know if they are exactly right, but it sounds plausible.)

As for why people voted against Chirac (if they indeed did)... again, the political analysts speaking... is because "the need for change in France builds up, until it explodes like in '68. This vote gave a pathway to a protest"...

Who knows...

<snip>
The idea was to streamline the system and to distribute power more evenly among countries. To get rid of excess bureaucracy and to increase direct democracy throughout.
<snip>
So why did they call it a "constitution"? If it was really just the "New Treaty to Help Cover Up Some of the Incredibly Stupid Decisions in Other Treaties" it wasn't really a constitution was it?


why screw all the EU over selfish anti-Chirac issues?
They didn't. The EU is on a downward spiral of incompetence and mismanagement and the French did all of us a favour by telling our unrepresentative 'leaders' to start listening.
Either the EU generates a genuine plan for the future as the USE or it goes back to being an economic bloc.

<snip>
Maybe the EU people should go read about how they did it in America then.
<snip>
What, you mean like recognise the rights of it's citizens? Freedom of Speech? Not a hope. Our leaders love their power and aint nobody gonna take it away!

did anybody read this treaty?for a constitution?

did anybody read this treaty?for a constitution?
Unfortunately. But to my defence, it was required of me. Job related. It is some HEAVY reading. I didn't understand half of it, and I'm supposed to have some prior knowledge of the various treaties it includes. It's written for the bureaucrats and lawyers. Absolutely ghastly! I did find out what the proposed new parts are... but I think that must be because I had read about them beforehand.

Free trade doesn't work. Mexico, Canada, and the US have a free trade agreement, and all that happens is the Americans only honour it when they feel like it. If you have one country in a bad mood, everything can fall apart. Also, the idea of a common constitution for the EU sorta scares me ... and I don't know why,

actually, trade between the US and Mexico has more than doubled since NAFTA went into effect, with Mexico exporting far more to the US than it imports from the US. So it worked out well for them, and is improving our economy as well (read down in the link for the section that talks directly about NAFTA).

http://mexico.usembassy.gov/mexico/trade_info.html

a little basic research (finding that link took me all of two minutes) goes a long way.

Apparently the monolithic Europe with a unified economy and government and immense latent power has a ways to go yet. This is hardly the first stumbling block that the EU has had to face, and more will certainly come. But in the end I think Europe will embrace the EU, it just might take another decade or more to get there, or some powerful external threat or event to force the issue.

Now the Dutch are going to reject it.

I would assume the dutch no-vote % is closer to 60 (if not over).

I would assume the dutch no-vote % is closer to 60 (if not over).

Yea considering they are predicting a more no precentage vote than the French no percentage vote.

Unfortunately. But to my defence, it was required of me. Job related. It is some HEAVY reading. I didn't understand half of it, and I'm supposed to have some prior knowledge of the various treaties it includes. It's written for the bureaucrats and lawyers. Absolutely ghastly! I did find out what the proposed new parts are... but I think that must be because I had read about them beforehand.
Thanks, it only proove this was written by the elite,waiting for us to give them our ignorance,the worst of it ,even intellectuals and jurists don't and can not translate it .it is subject on interpretations, Conclusion it is not a constitution,it is a :confused:
A constition must be readable and comprehensive for everybody, this one is not,and therefore must be reject.

WL raises an interesting point re the dislike of urban elites. The irony is that the urban elite in France would appear to be centrist (well, centre-right).

I'm anti-constitution, based on the analyses I've read of it. I haven't read the document itself - not because I don't want to, but because it's so inaccessible. It's not like there are free copies around and it's far too large to read on the internet. One of the objections I've read is that there's a dubious section devoted to space exploration, but I've been unable to find out what the objections to this are. Surely they're not mandating financial contributions from all member states?

Well, congrats to the people of France. This is a horrible, mangled monolith of a constitution and I'll be glad to see it buried.

Thanks, it only proove this was written by the elite,waiting for us to give them our ignorance,the worst of it ,even intellectuals and jurists don't and can not translate it .it is subject on interpretations, Conclusion it is not a constitution,it is a :confused:
A constition must be readable and comprehensive for everybody, this one is not,and therefore must be reject.

Here in the US, we call the "intellectual elite" and the "Hollywood elite" Democrats. They are often referred to by the mainstream media as "cerebral" and "intellectual".

The backlash against the "elite" in the US was the recent election of George Bush.

Are you sure you want to go down that path? The urban Paris vs. rural France is the same breakdown as the red state/blue state thing in the US.

Thanks, it only proove this was written by the elite,waiting for us to give them our ignorance,the worst of it ,even intellectuals and jurists don't and can not translate it .it is subject on interpretations, Conclusion it is not a constitution,it is a :confused:
A constition must be readable and comprehensive for everybody, this one is not,and therefore must be reject.
Well, the thing is that it is not a constitution. It's just another treaty to bind the old treaties together - with some additions, granted. It was a stupid strategy to call it a constitution in the first place. If you want a briefing of what new I got out of it, here you go:

# EU president - to bring continuity to the Commission's work.

# Foreign minister - to replace Javier Solana's current post and to coordinate foreign policy (the number to call in EU). And this is going to happen anyways.

# Streamlining the Commission - no more commissioners for EVERY memberstate (rotating system).

# Streamlining of the parliament - more power in some areas of legislation.

# Overhauling of the voting system - lesser options for veto-power AND more majority decisions. I guess the French and other big countries (read: Britain, really love this)

# Somekind of euro-prosecutor-geezer - it didn't quite dawn to me what he would do... but I got the impression this has to do with organised crime, such as drug traffic etc.

# Increased EU role in trade politics - the EU could directly negotiate those with, say, the US (didn't understand much about that either). Understood enough to know that the French Unions really disliked it.

# Strenghtening the common foreign and security policies - joint material purchasing etc. To my understanding, this is happening without a mention in any treaty anywho...

# My personal 'favourite'; common values - I don't know what to say about those... I thought common sense would have taken care of those.

# EU citizenship - pretty much schengen + the right to vote anywhere you happen to be at the moment (on your local elections that is - I couldn't go to france and vote in their presidential elections however much I wanted).

I haven't read the document itself - not because I don't want to, but because it's so inaccessible. It's not like there are free copies around and it's far too large to read on the internet.
There isn't copies of it for you to read? Well, that's an infringement of your rights as an EU-citizen right there. I would send you mine, but it's in finnish (well, sorta... I don't know what language some parts are...lawyerish, mayhaps).

Here in the US, we call the "intellectual elite" and the "Hollywood elite" Democrats. They are often referred to by the mainstream media as "cerebral" and "intellectual".

The backlash against the "elite" in the US was the recent election of George Bush.

Are you sure you want to go down that path? The urban Paris vs. rural France is the same breakdown as the red state/blue state thing in the US.
If the rural French effect a change of government, it'll be in favour of the 'socialists', not conservatives.

Though the colours will remain the same.

There isn't copies of it for you to read? Well, that's an infringement of your rights as an EU-citizen right there. I would send you mine, but it's in finnish (well, sorta... I don't know what language some parts are...lawyerish, mayhaps).
I haven't been able to find a free copy, plus it's not something I can read from the net (and I have no printer). Mind you, I'm in the UK - we seem to make a point of being contrary...

Here in the US, we call the "intellectual elite" and the "Hollywood elite" Democrats. They are often referred to by the mainstream media as "cerebral" and "intellectual".

The backlash against the "elite" in the US was the recent election of George Bush.

Are you sure you want to go down that path? The urban Paris vs. rural France is the same breakdown as the red state/blue state thing in the US.

why? because you never had social resistenz ,doesn't mean we have to follow US apaty?
hey i'm french living in holland,i have friend in Berlin as well as in Santander(spain) i speak 4 language i understand 5,can you match it?
well all of them are against a Mighty europa,but for a social europa,we will not got fascist or let neocons make the way here,we will go on and we will not go where those guy whant let us go,we have an history here,a struggle one,where is yours(malcon x,sacco and vanzetti) fox news?
Europa(from the ppl) want something else is that communism?
No !it is Democracy,the direct one it is,if you think it is bullshit go on then, vote for bush,vote for blair,vot for mass media,vote for mass murder,in the name of democracy,it is ok,don't forget the chinese or the other one and all the martian who will surely come later :D

hey i'm french living in holland,i have friend in Berlin as well as in Santander(spain) i speak 4 language i understand 5,can you match it?

More than match it.

-----
And why does a nation need sovereignty? Why? Tell me!
All that means is that your country calls itself sovereign. How does that benefit you?
How is that better than being member of a $8 Trillion economy with 200 million consumers? One with the weigh behind to actually influence world events?[/QUOTE]

I don't know. Why would a nation be afraid to hand over it's foreign policy decisions to a massive international group that might not share it's values? Why would the Dutch be afraid to allow the Italians to have a hand in shaping Dutch life? Why on earth would a a people want decisions regarding them to be made by citizens of their nation rather than a great conglomerate of nations that have, traditionally, invaded eachother at every chance.

Nations need sovereignty because government isn't simply economic. The Dutch, a traditionally tollerant people, have alot to fear getting in bed with an organization in which Italy and Greece can push their conservative Christian values. What happens if Turkey manages to get into the EU? More importantly, what happens if a war breaks out and different nations are on different sides? What if a wealthy nation, like Norway, decides to drop out of the EU (thus witholding potential taxes) because they feel they no longer need it? What happens if a massive depression hits one of the member states, making them a drain?

Does Europe really understand what federalizing will mean? I have to look at the French vote and see it as an example of the French people being smarter than their leaders. They realize that if they begin down the road of unification they will eventually lose their soverignty. I doubt you'll find many people in France who relish their idea of their children living in the EU, in the Province of France. Look at States in the United States, that is the future of European nations if they start down this road.

Oh calm down yous guys.


And I speak... 9 languages - - whattahell, this is the internet - - let's say i speak... cool 10. And understand 15. :D

If the rural French effect a change of government, it'll be in favour of the 'socialists', not conservatives.

Though the colours will remain the same.

it looks like the center right is going to benefit most according to this article

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050531/ap_on_re_eu/france_new_government;_ylt=AooTI.R.PDYO6cvviaohb26s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2NzN0azRvBHNlYwN3bA--

Oh calm down yous guys.

And I speak... 9 languages - - whattahell, this is the internet - - let's say i speak... cool 10. And understand 15. :D

The question I have is that it was indeed rural French who voted the No - in protest against the "elite" who run France from Paris.

And are Europeans willing to let a nation like France go the way of Rhode Island?

I have to look at the French vote and see it as an example of the French people being smarter than their leaders.
That's funny, cos I see it as an example of the French people being only slightly less dumber than their leaders. ;)

That's funny, cos I see it as an example of the French people being only slightly less dumber than their leaders. ;)
Well, their brains don't work as well because it isn't cold enough, you know.

The question I have is that it was indeed rural French who voted the No - in protest against the "elite" who run France from Paris.
Oh, No question about it. I think it was only Ile-de France (greater Paris?) and the overseas dominions voting 'oui'. Only strenghtens the explanation of the political analysts i quoted earlier, really.

it looks like the center right is going to benefit most according to this article

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050531/ap_on_re_eu/france_new_government;_ylt=AooTI.R.PDYO6cvviaohb26s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2NzN0azRvBHNlYwN3bA--
Hmm, not convinced that the article shows that. The centre right are in govt. Chirac is of the centre-right. These are the people that the majority of French voters can't stand. I'd say that the principle beneficiaries will be the extremes, unless the Socialists (really social democrats - what's in a name, eh?) get their act together.

Oh, No question about it. I think it was only Ile-de France (greater Paris?) and the overseas dominions voting 'oui'. Only strenghtens the explanation of the political analysts i quoted earlier, really.
I just find the division interesting. Here in the US, the identical division blew the Democratic Party out of the water.

Is the current French government afraid of the same kind of blowout?

Not that they would be replaced with neocons, but they would be replaced.

For you toremember that the treaty has been made without any aprooval from the people
EU citizenship - pretty much schengen + the right to vote anywhere you happen to be at the moment (on your local elections that is - I couldn't go to france and vote in their presidential elections however much I wanted).
i can not vote for the nederlands matters(schengen 1991) i live here since 1995
My personal 'favourite'; common values - I don't know what to say about those... I thought common sense would have taken care of those.
inflation is going 5 to 10%...it was ok

Increased EU role in trade politics - the EU could directly negotiate those with, say, the US (didn't understand much about that either). Understood enough to know that the French Unions really disliked it.
Well my boss know it

Strenghtening the common foreign and security policies - joint material purchasing etc. To my understanding, this is happening without a mention in any treaty anywho...
Nato

ETC ETC i go to eat now ;)

That's funny, cos I see it as an example of the French people being only slightly less dumber than their leaders. ;)


The French aren't quite so bad as people make them out to be. They are a classic example of a people getting a bad rep because of high profile stereotypes. That, and they've had the bad luck of a terrible choice of leaders over the past decade or so.

Hmm...sounds kinda familiar. :)

*takes cover from the mutual shitstorm*

ETC ETC i go to eat now ;)
OK. Maybe you could tidy that quote a bit after that. :)

Might be a bit late in the thread to mention this, but I noticed earlier on people expressing confusion over the French attitude to Chirac. This is in large part because he wasn't given a very clear mandate, to say the least. A lot of people on here probably have a working understanding of the French political system(especially the French), but for the benefit of the rest I thought I 'd give a quick rundown of the French 2002 election. The French presidential election has 2 stages, the first in which everyone stands, and then the second into which only the top two go. Unfortunately in 2002 this backfired when the left wing vote was fragmented between so many candidates that none of them went through to the second stage, despite the large section of French society that were represented by them. Instead, only the incumbent Chirac and the fascist Le Pen went through. Given this choice the French had little choice but to re-elect the unpopular Chirac despite his allegedly illegal activities, leading to the timeless electioneering slogan "Vote for the crook, not the Nazi."

The French aren't quite so bad as people make them out to be. They are a classic example of a people getting a bad rep because of high profile stereotypes. That, and they've had the bad luck of a terrible choice of leaders over the past decade or so.

Hmm...sounds kinda familiar. :)

*takes cover from the mutual shitstorm*
Oh! I have nothing against the French people. I was just trying to be witty. It's just that, in my opinion, decisions of this magnitude shouldn't be trusted to the hands of the hoi polloi. :) I mean, was there a referendum when they carved the American constitution (actually, I don't know... but if there was, it was before the mass media).

The reason I go and vote somebody to represent me is, I can trust they make a good decision. That's just me... and Finnish system is lightyears apart from many in Europe... so be kind. *any room under that shitstorm shelter GD?*

Bunnyducks - I think I was being lazy. I've found a really good site for the constitution where it's divided into easily manageable chunks. Hurrah for The Guardian website for linking to it.

http://europa.eu.int/constitution/en/lstoc1_en.htm

Bunnyducks - I think I was being lazy. I've found a really good site for the constitution where it's divided into easily manageable chunks. Hurrah for The Guardian website for linking to it.

http://europa.eu.int/constitution/en/lstoc1_en.htm
Hooray! (but that should be provided to you - free of charge - anyways, if you asked for it. I know it is here, so it must be a EU rule of somekind).

But...but... isn't Guardian the paper which asked for its readers to send letters to American voters before their presidential election..? Hmmm...

Might be a bit late in the thread to mention this, but I noticed earlier on people expressing confusion over the French attitude to Chirac. This is in large part because he wasn't given a very clear mandate, to say the least. A lot of people on here probably have a working understanding of the French political system(especially the French), but for the benefit of the rest I thought I 'd give a quick rundown of the French 2002 election. The French presidential election has 2 stages, the first in which everyone stands, and then the second into which only the top two go. Unfortunately in 2002 this backfired when the left wing vote was fragmented between so many candidates that none of them went through to the second stage, despite the large section of French society that were represented by them. Instead, only the incumbent Chirac and the fascist Le Pen went through. Given this choice the French had little choice but to re-elect the unpopular Chirac despite his allegedly illegal activities, leading to the timeless electioneering slogan "Vote for the crook, not the Nazi."

and people think voting for the lesser of two evils is unique to American elections...

The problem that multiple party systems is very well summed up by your analysis though. Building a consensus is a lot harder when you have simply too many messages to digest as a voter. Perhaps next time the French will get someone who isn't a crook or a idealogue.

Maybe we will too (chuckle and ducking from the inevitable Pro Bush crowd reproachful glares and barbs)

But...but... isn't Guardian the paper which asked for its readers to send letters to American voters before their presidential election..? Hmmm...
Yep. That campaign made me laugh. That said, it was not offical editorial policy, I think. The supplements have considerable leeway - G2 ran the campaign. The paper then printed reactions - good and bad - from Clark County.

The Guardian is also pro-constitution. They're not always right.

That said, it was not offical editorial policy, I think....

The Guardian is also pro-constitution. They're not always right.
Right, got it. I really thought it was the editorial policy (never felt strongly enough to find out), and thought that was really bad taste.

What comes to them being wrong about being pro-constitution (I assume that is included in your last sentence), I choose to disagree with you this time - if you don't mind. Silly me, I always want 'To boldly go where no man has gone before'.

Right, got it. I really thought it was the editorial policy (never felt strongly enough to find out), and thought that was really bad taste.

What comes to them being wrong about being pro-constitution (I assume that is included in your last sentence), I choose to disagree with you this time - if you don't mind. Silly me, I always want 'To boldly go where no man has gone before'.
Fair enough. I just don't like this constitution. I regret that I'm getting more and more anti-EU as each day goes by.

How's the voting going in the Netherlands?

What if I was bold enough to ask you/others/French this; would you vote against the EU constitution if there was only 15 EU-member states? I get a feeling that the last enlargement, and the fact that some of the eastern members went against France, made French vote against 'any more of this EU merde'.

Let's be contrafactual for a moment here... would France, the Neds and the UK vote 'against' this constitution if there were just 15 member states?!?! I would say NOOO-O. They'd be screaming to adopt it. (I have been proven wrong before, so go right ahead)

How's the voting going in the Netherlands?
Poorly. They decided to start the first of May, as first agreed. So no votes out yet.

I've heard that some Europeans have a problem with "Turkey".

They could accept a final EU with no Turkey.

And as an aside, I can't wait until the Germans actually elect Merkel.

What if a wealthy nation, like Norway, decides to drop out of the EU (thus witholding potential taxes) because they feel they no longer need it?

I'm sorry, but this clearly reveals that you should not be discussing the EU. Do not take it as an insult, please, merely as a fact: you do not know enough about the EU to talk about it.

Finally... the French did something smart... if only they'd have elected Jean Marie Le Penn and helped out in Iraq.

Do not take it as an insult, please, merely as a fact: you do not know enough about the EU to talk about it. A bit harsh though. Norway is a debt-free nation - because of their oil - which chose to stay out of the EU. I think everybody should be welcomed to talk about the EU. It's not like even the EU-citizens have enough information about it...

A bit harsh though. Norway is a debt-free nation - because of their oil - which chose to stay out of the EU. I think everybody should be welcomed to talk about the EU. It's not like even the EU-citizens have enough information about it...

Is there any real time pressure on getting a "constitution"?

I mean, if it's all working out fine so far, is there a need for a real constitution? Or can they spend the next 100 years working on it?

What if I was bold enough to ask you/others/French this; would you vote against the EU constitution if there was only 15 EU-member states? I get a feeling that the last enlargement, and the fact that some of the eastern members went against France, made French vote against 'any more of this EU merde'.

Let's be contrafactual for a moment here... would France, the Neds and the UK vote 'against' this constitution if there were just 15 member states?!?! I would say NOOO-O. They'd be screaming to adopt it. (I have been proven wrong before, so go right ahead)
Noooo, I support the enlargement, as do most Brits (I think).

Is there any real time pressure on getting a "constitution"?

I mean, if it's all working out fine so far, is there a need for a real constitution? Or can they spend the next 100 years working on it?
Well, the most dangerous thing to EU is, that all kinds of reformist policies have suffered a blow. I don't know about 'pressure'. The thing why this (NO) is coined as a 'crisis', is that there really wasn't a plan B. The other member states now proceed with the ratification process... not exactly knowing why.

Maybe this is for good; maybe now the member states become more committed to the project. There were times when only (a slight exaggeration) Finland met all the criterias set by the EU - we are barmy like that up here: respect the treaties you have made.

A bit harsh though. Norway is a debt-free nation - because of their oil - which chose to stay out of the EU. I think everybody should be welcomed to talk about the EU. It's not like even the EU-citizens have enough information about it...

Think he was more commenting the fact that the previous poster had said "what if Norway decided to drop out?", when Norway never has been a memeber of the EU...

Finally... the French did something smart... if only they'd have elected Jean Marie Le Penn and helped out in Iraq.
Ick.

Think he was more commenting the fact that the previous poster had said "what if Norway decided to drop out?", when Norway never has been a memeber of the EU...
I know (knew). That's why I only quoted the parts i quoted. :)

Originally Posted by Blu-tac
Finally... the French did something smart... if only they'd have elected Jean Marie Le Penn and helped out in Iraq.


:headbang:

• Jean Marie Lepen is a kind of nazi/populist and it will be civil war if he was elected.
He will not be elected because he 'represent' (manipulate) about 8 to 12% of the most brainless white low educated people. Theire is probably more colored people in France. Like all the ultra right totalitarists, he doesn't care to 'his' country, he just want to make confusion between the State's money and his own...

• I think that lots of low educated american people have forgot one thing : If you have a friend who think that you've wrong and who say you : "you've right", then he's not a friend. And if for you a friend is someone who always think the same as you then you'r a facist and you should be burned :mp5:

:cool: Most of the french people who vote 'NON' did it because that traity will give the possibility for a french boss to employ a Polish worker in France with the polish salary (4 to 7 lower that in France). Just imagine, if you have a 2000$ salary, your boss can emply à Bolivian worker to do the same work as you for only 300 or 400$? Of course, it is dangerous for you.

Most of the french people who vote 'NON' did it because that traity will give the possibility for a french boss to employ a Polish worker in France with the polish salary (4 to 7 lower that in France).
So, I'm tepted to ask, would you have voted 'Oui', if there only was 15 states in the Union? (I just want to test my contrafactual hypothesis)

Finally... the French did something smart... if only they'd have elected Jean Marie Le Penn and helped out in Iraq.


here is the joy of Jean-Marie-LePen after a victorious campaign for the "NO"

http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/2002/0204/lepen0422.jpg

France has made Jean-Marie-LePen a powerful man indeed...what did he have to say?

"Merci la France... :fluffle: ...merci beacoup"

France has made Jean-Marie-LePen a powerful man indeed...what did he have to say?


Oh, he said the usual things:

I'm not a local taxpayer! Those are not my money! This is a government conspiracy!

Isolate those infected with AIDS!

The gas chambers are a point of detail of the Second World War!


Things like that he is famous for.

Le Pen’s Last Laugh

Notorious politician Jean-Marie Le Pen is confident that France will vote against the EU Constitution

By Tracy McNicoll
Newsweek
Updated: 11:04 a.m. ET April 7, 2005

April 6 - Will Jean-Marie Le Pen get the last laugh? He sent French voters screaming into the streets to keep him from the presidency in 2002, but France's notorious far-right curmudgeon is all smiles now.

© 2005 MSNBC.com
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7409037/site/newsweek/

Deciding that French nation (would) disappear from the history of the world — I find that monstrous
Well done, old bean. You hit another home run. That is exactly what the EU constitution's tenth (and hidden) title was about; annihilate France!

*How did Jean-Marie find that!?!*

well le pen is a fascist the same as bush when he was smoking joint,(was)
my father went in algeria(not irak) it was fun he never came back the same(ah ah ah) the other one were terroriste,my grand father was terrorist(against the nazis)...

i'm working and i Hate you(all governement) since i lived 10 years in the street because i refusd to go military for such assholes...well i work for there handicaped children now....so make it out...i'm mad and because i'm french(now let your spam) i will say fuck you,or merde encule de ta mere, connard etc etc

...since i lived 10 years in the street because i refusd to go military for such assholes... I was under the impression you don't have mandatory military service in France... Could you elaborate?

I was under the impression you don't have mandatory military service in France... Could you elaborate?

I don't know if the French still have conscription, but they did during the entire Cold War period. Conscripts were restricted to service in the departments of France except during wartime and even then there were restrictions (so no conscripts in the French Indochina War but conscripts did serve during the Algerian War)

why someone who feel the need to dodge said draft during time of peace is a mystery, but not an important one.

I was under the impression you don't have mandatory military service in France... Could you elaborate?
They stopped it. You know, I was reading recently that Finland is now the EU nation with the most comprehensive level of military conscription (i.e. nearest to 100% of all males) out there.

We don't call up the full age-range now here... cost cutting more than anything else... oh well... Finland is always between us and Russia anyway ;)

As for the EU in crisis...hmm, I guess. I wonder what would actually be the result of the referedum in France (and in Netherlands tomorrow) if the voters voted 100% on the content of the Constitution and not other issues.

here is the joy of Jean-Marie-LePen after a victorious campaign for the "NO"

http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/2002/0204/lepen0422.jpg

France has made Jean-Marie-LePen a powerful man indeed...what did he have to say?

"Merci la France... :fluffle: ...merci beacoup"

no doubt Pierre Laval's ghost is proud of him too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Laval

They stopped it. You know, I was reading recently that Finland is now the EU nation with the most comprehensive level of military conscription (i.e. nearest to 100% of all males) out there.

We don't call up the full age-range now here... cost cutting more than anything else... oh well... Finland is always between us and Russia anyway ;)

Nah. The level of military conscription is only like 82% of the males now. The rest are rock stars and athletes (...or them conscientious objectors Amnesty keeps talking about). But thanks. I did know France doesn't have mandatory military service anymore... I just didn't know how old Allers is. :)

Ok listen the compulsary military dienst is dead in 1992(in france)
the rest is history like trauma too.that is it.hey it is late here soo see you all ;)

Nah. The level of military conscription is only like 82% of the males now. The rest are rock stars and athletes (...or them conscientious objectors Amnesty keeps talking about). But thanks. I did know France doesn't have mandatory military service anymore... I just didn't know how old Allers is. :)
old and still fighting :mp5:

Ok listen the compulsary military dienst is dead in 1992(in france)
the rest is history like trauma too.that is it.hey it is late here soo see you all ;)
So sad... If I was French, I still would have been had to serve. Served 1989 to 91. There went the dreams of better past!
*sniff*

Nah. The level of military conscription is only like 82% of the males now. The rest are rock stars and athletes (...or them conscientious objectors Amnesty keeps talking about). But thanks. I did know France doesn't have mandatory military service anymore... I just didn't know how old Allers is. :)
Yes, Finland is getting so big in entertainment this days, maybe you could have a third option of entering a rock-band instead of a military brigade or civil service.

Amnesty have got it in for us at the moment, mainly over our deportation of two Egyptians to Egypt. To be fair, they are absolutely right to be critical. It's very bad.

Is Finland changing its civilian service time period?

Hurray for France! They did the right thing. Opening a totally-free market can do serious harm.

well said

well le pen is a fascist the same as bush ...maybe..but in last elections only Chirac got more votes than him...

Amnesty have got it in for us at the moment, mainly over our deportation of two Egyptians to Egypt. To be fair, they are absolutely right to be critical. It's very bad.

Is Finland changing its civilian service time period?
This has fuck-all to do with the thread... but let's go on...

What is that with the Egyptians? I haven't read your papers for 3 days...

And: (we changed those like 3 years ago... the poor babies only have to serve 6 or 8 months [12 (11?) to become an officer])

Edit: Oh! Civilian service period... the one Amnesty has problems with. Well, I hope so... but I can't see it happening. They are in open prisons , and they are working and making good money...(much more than the guys serving... + they get credits in their CV the whole time.)

So sad... If I was French, I still would have been had to serve. Served 1989 to 91.
*sniff*
i'm gone to help you then i go.snifff
i was born in 1967. my father in 1941 my mother in 1939,does it help you now?

i'm gone to help you then i go.snifff
i was born in 1967. my father in 1941 my mother in 1939,does it help you now?
That helped a lot. Thanks. I thought You'd be younger speaking of Algeria and all. Makes sense now.

maybe..but in last elections only Chirac got more votes than him...
so?

That helped a lot. Thanks. I thought You'd be younger speaking of Algeria and all. Makes sense now.
my dad went to wage war there.and was not ready

This has fuck-all to do with the thread... but let's go on...

What is that with the Egyptians? I haven't read your papers for 3 days...

And: (we changed those like 3 years ago... the poor babies only have to serve 6 or 8 months [12 (11?) to become an officer])
Ha ha, I bet they don't even have to sleep in tents in Lappland these days... !

Probably these last 3 days is the first 3 days it hasn't been in our papers.

Bascically, it has been uncovered that in 2001 the authorities handed over 2 Egyptians to the US agents who then flew them to Egypt. They were suspect terrorists. The controversy is that Egypt regularly uses torture.

UN Anti-Torture Committee has also found Sweden guily of violating the international anti-torture convention because of this.

Not good... the latest is that Anna Lindh herself approved this.

are we going of topics?

Not good... the latest is that Anna Lindh herself approved this.
A-Ha! So that's why she was stabbed!

*the conspiracy theorist in me is just aching to be let out*

i'm lost
see you around

A-Ha! So that's why she was stabbed!

*the conspiracy theorist in me is just aching to be let out*
Quick,telephone Aftonbladet.

Seriously, no, of course not.... I find it difficult to speak about Anna Lindh like this, and difficult to digest that she authorised the deportation, she was very popular... with me also.

i'm lost
see you aroundc koi le probleme? tu ne comprends pas l'Anglais...ou peut-etre tu ne te comprends pas toi meme?

mais avand de te dire adieu...je une question rapide...pour-koi tu es si fache?

esque un chien tas pisse desu?

Yes. Seemed like an exceptionally good politician. I use the word 'good' with reservations when applied to politicians.

But HEY! Only so much time to talk about the French vote... The Ned vote is in within 24 hours... Are you a betting person Borgoa? I bet the spread is smaller than 31% - bigger than 28%. A taker?

Yes. Seemed like an exceptionally good politician. I use the word 'good' with reservations when applied to politicians.

But HEY! Only so much time to talk about the French vote... The Ned vote is in within 24 hours... Are you a betting person Borgoa? I bet the spread is smaller than 31% - bigger than 28%. A taker?
once the french killed the EU cons....there is absolutely no chance for the YES side...

once the french killed the EU cons....there is absolutely no chance for the YES side...
And you thought I'm betting for yes side?!?

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/cartoons/2002/05/02/stevebell.jpg

you can tell this is from an British neswpaper

Until Chirac, I assumed the world's most hated man was Jeremy Beadle.

How wrong one can be...

Yes. Seemed like an exceptionally good politician. I use the word 'good' with reservations when applied to politicians.

But HEY! Only so much time to talk about the French vote... The Ned vote is in within 24 hours... Are you a betting person Borgoa? I bet the spread is smaller than 31% - bigger than 28%. A taker?
It's going to be embarassingly bad for their government... worse than the French I'm sure, especially now that there really is no motivation to vote yes as the thing is pretty much in the gutter... everyone can just vote No for any other reason they can think of (it's raining, i got a parking ticket the other day etc)... You can tell, the Dutch government ministers have pretty much stopped campaigning... too embarrasing to be seen going round saying vote yes when it's so obvious they're about to get a big slap in the face!

I think your bet is probably safe.

Now, as it gets far too late into the night for us workers, I must go to bed... I'm hoping Bunny you don't have to get up too early as you're even nearer the morning than I am!!

Good night and hyvää yötä!

you are not a fool...are you?
Look at the spread I gave. Either I'm a fool to believe the Neds are ANTI big time... or then I'm just a fool...

I'd say i'm a fool who couldn't count odds... but... that's just me.

Good night and hyvää yötä!
Öitä. Katellaan myöhemmin. :)

Until Chirac, I assumed the world's most hated man was Jeremy Beadle.

How wrong one can be...
you are still wrong...

#1 Most of the French hate him because he is a man of principle...he is a Capitalist leading a mostly Socialist country...ususally a politician would put his own ideals on the closet and do as the polls say...

not Chirac...unfortenataly for his political career...

#2 most english speaking Countries hate Chirac...because he is a French Patriot ... and players in this forum are 95% from english speaking Countries...so this is a biased environement.

.....so the question is...where are you wrong?

you are wrong to think Chirac is close to being "the world's most hated man"...

see... the english speaking countries + the Country of france make less than 10% of the world...

and outside those Chirac hating countries...Chirac is not hated.

in most of the World Chirac is admired...

you are still wrong...

#1 Most of the French hate him because he is a man of principle...he is a Capitalist leading a mostly Socialist country...ususally a politician would put his own ideals on the closet and do as the polls say...

not Chirac...unfortenataly for his political career...

#2 most english speaking Countries hate Chirac...because he is a French Patriot ... and players in this forum are 95% from english speaking Countries...so this is a biased environement.

.....so the question is where are you wrong?
you are wrong to think Chirac is close to being "the world's most hated man"...cos the english speaking countries + the Country of france make less than 10% of the world...

and outside those Chirac hating countries...Chirac is not hated.

in most of the World Chirac is admired...

I was under the impression that a lot of the left in France hate Chirac and are taking the opportunity to get back at him because they were "forced" to vote for him in the second tour of the Presidential election in 2002 against J-M Le Pen. No candidate of the left got through to the second round, so they had to vote for Chirac in defiance of the Front Nationale....

Is that a major issue?

Anyway, I said I was going to bed... and now I am... god natt till alla!

That is funny. Sarcasm, I hope. I'll have a poke though. (these will be lame!)

you are still wrong...

#1 Most of the French hate him because he is a man of principle...he is a Capitalist leading a mostly Socialist country...ususally a politician would put his own ideals on the closet and do as the polls say...

not Chirac...unfortenataly for his political career...

#2 most english speaking Countries hate Chirac...because he is a French Patriot ... and players in this forum are 95% from english speaking Countries...so this is a biased environement.

Most of English speaking countries being..? Would 'most' be UK alone... or is it USA...quite a conundrum.

.....so the question is...where are you wrong?

you are wrong to think Chirac is close to being "the world's most hated man"...
Somehow I'm afraid Chirac is world's 2nd-most hated man. I don't know how they back this up... but I am told GWB still holds the lead.

Most of English speaking countries being..? .I ma Talking about... US,UK, Aus,NZ, Ireland, Canada(9/10 provinces)

I ma Talking about... US,UK, Aus,NZ, Ireland, Canada(9/10 provinces)
Oh, Right. Let's say I just believe they hate Chirac then.

It would be too hard for you to find hard evidence for me to believe most of them hate Chirac then? (a comma should be good there somewhere)

Oh, Right. Let's say I just believe they hate Chirac then.

It would be too hard for you to find hard evidence for me to believe most of them hate Chirac? (a comma should be good there somewhere)good to see you are not a n00b.

good to see you are not a n00b.
I'm sorry. Truly. Being opinionated is good with me. I just couldn't help it. :)

Oh, Right. Let's say I just believe they hate Chirac then.

It would be too hard for you to find hard evidence for me to believe most of them hate Chirac then? (a comma should be good there somewhere)

Well alot of people in the US don't like Chirac.

Well alot of people in the US don't like Chirac.
A loads of people in Europe doesn't like him. Big surprise... llet's party-e!

No worries though. If you are anti-EU (outside EU), you'll have a field day tomorrow. The Dutch are going to snuff this treaty. Please keep your commentary in one thread. :D

cya tomorrow folks...

A loads of people in Europe doesn't like him. Big surprise... llet's party-e!

I second the motion! LOL

c koi le probleme? tu ne comprends pas l'Anglais...ou peut-etre tu ne te comprends pas toi meme?

mais avand de te dire adieu...je une question rapide...pour-koi tu es si fache?

esque un chien tas pisse desu?
peut etre parce que je travaille avec des autistes,et que jén retrouve beucoup ici.
peut etre parceque jái vecu 10 ans dans la rue,et que je mebat depuis cette epoque contre les facho et l'econocrazi.
peut etre parce que j'ai vu mon pere degueler quand il parlait de la guerre d'algerie.
peut etre quíl etait tard aussi
in english now
may be because i work with autists,and i found them back here
may be because i lived 10 years in the streets,and i fight fachism and econocrazi
may be because i saw my father puke when he talked about Algeria war
may be because it was late
and i forgot i don't consider anyone here to be a dog

Anyone know how the Dutch Vote is going. I'm on pins and needles.

Maybe we will too (chuckle and ducking from the inevitable Pro Bush crowd reproachful glares and barbs)

Not as long as the "choice" is between a theocrat and a communist we won't...

I'm sorry, but this clearly reveals that you should not be discussing the EU. Do not take it as an insult, please, merely as a fact: you do not know enough about the EU to talk about it.


I'm not talking about the EU as it exists today. I'm talking about what it will inevitably become as time goes on. Centralization of power, and the bad things that come from it, is a subject Americans know quite alot about. It is naieve to expect that the leaders of the EU will ever stop grabbing for more and more power. They will want more programs, more subsidies, more everything. The only way to pay for a large centralized government is with tax.

If Brussels is allowed to take a large amount of power, it won't stop at merely being the center of a European trade organization. Already they look to foreign policy powers. Already the supporters of the EU have dreams of becoming a super-power to rival the US. Do you really think that can happen without handing over ever increasing amounts of power to the EU at the expense of individual member's domestic power? Take a good look at "states" in the US as they existed in 1800 and how they existed in 2000. Just be aware of where your leaders are leading you.

Think he was more commenting the fact that the previous poster had said "what if Norway decided to drop out?", when Norway never has been a memeber of the EU...


I was using Norway as an example because it is one of the few large, healthy economies in Europe. Granted, Norway isn't an EU member, but I couldn't exactly make the same argument using, say, Greece.

Nah. The level of military conscription is only like 82% of the males now. The rest are rock stars and athletes (...or them conscientious objectors Amnesty keeps talking about). But thanks. I did know France doesn't have mandatory military service anymore... I just didn't know how old Allers is. :)

You'd think that if you wanted to conscript anybody, it'd be the guys from Finntroll and Moonsorrow...

The Dutch have voted NO too.

*throws a party*

I was using Norway as an example because it is one of the few large, healthy economies in Europe..Norway is not a Large aconomy in Europe...

Just remember the EuroArmy is nothing atm and there is no compulsory service for the EU nations(for the EuroArmy). The EU is still under the nice tidy and comfortable blanket of the primarily US funded NATO.

I must admit, as an american I am all for french bashing, because well a strong portion of them are hypocritical and condencending towards a nation who not once but TWICE helped to keep them free. France has always had weird foreign policy in my eyes, but that is their business.

As to france voting no to the EU, i think it is a wake up call to the EU, that their united vision of Europe still has some flaws in it. In 20-25 years or so, when the first generation of EU centered children grow up into not only the voters, but the actual leaders of their nations, the true vision and scope of the EU will be achieved.

I however sincerely hope, that the EU does not forget the past, and sticks with their "take the world over under a flag of peace".

Inquiry: If russia joins the EU, and conflict between the russians and chinese escalates into all out war, how would you feel fighting in that said war?

Just remember the EuroArmy is nothing atm and there is no compulsory service for the EU nations(for the EuroArmy). The EU is still under the nice tidy and comfortable blanket of the primarily US funded NATO.

I must admit, as an american I am all for french bashing, because well a strong portion of them are hypocritical and condencending towards a nation who not once but TWICE helped to keep them free. France has always had weird foreign policy in my eyes, but that is their business.

As to france voting no to the EU, i think it is a wake up call to the EU, that their united vision of Europe still has some flaws in it. In 20-25 years or so, when the first generation of EU centered children grow up into not only the voters, but the actual leaders of their nations, the true vision and scope of the EU will be achieved.

I however sincerely hope, that the EU does not forget the past, and sticks with their "take the world over under a flag of peace".

Inquiry: If russia joins the EU, and conflict between the russians and chinese escalates into all out war, how would you feel fighting in that said war?

well an other the ocean who can not forgot(but did) ;)
and for you alone "did you read it"before you accuse somebody to use it against you(sarcasme)

Just remember the EuroArmy is nothing atm and there is no compulsory service for the EU nations(for the EuroArmy). The EU is still under the nice tidy and comfortable blanket of the primarily US funded NATO.

I must admit, as an american I am all for french bashing, because well a strong portion of them are hypocritical and condencending towards a nation who not once but TWICE helped to keep them free. France has always had weird foreign policy in my eyes, but that is their business.

As to france voting no to the EU, i think it is a wake up call to the EU, that their united vision of Europe still has some flaws in it. In 20-25 years or so, when the first generation of EU centered children grow up into not only the voters, but the actual leaders of their nations, the true vision and scope of the EU will be achieved.

I however sincerely hope, that the EU does not forget the past, and sticks with their "take the world over under a flag of peace".

Inquiry: If russia joins the EU, and conflict between the russians and chinese escalates into all out war, how would you feel fighting in that said war?

well an other one over the ocean who can not forgot(but did) ;)
and for you alone "did you read it"before you accuse somebody to use it against you(sarcasme)

Norway is not a Large aconomy in Europe...

As compared to? Sure, its smaller than France and Germany (I don't include Spain because a tourist economy isn't a real economy at all), but its quite strong.

Three cheers for the Dutch! Nice to see that the Netherlands are even more eager to control their own destiny (63%! WOW!).

On a side note, what do all of you think of the speculation that the Dutch vote might have been influenced by concerns about the murders of Pim Fortuyn and Theo Van Gogh?

... a tourist economy isn't a real economy at all..a tourist economy?

BTW ever heard of Germany, France. England, Spain, Italy, Holland, Sweden...heck..most of the EU has larger economies than Norway

a tourist economy?



What, 60% of Spain's economy depends almost exclusively on tourism. A mild recession in the rest of Europe has the potential to cripple Spain's economy. Thats beyond unhealthy, thats dangerous. Especially for a country that is not exactly wealthy to begin with.

Fears that rediculous regulation like this will become the norm is why the EU is taking a pounding.

Feta Compli (6/2)
Only cheese made in Greece should be called feta, according to a legal adviser to the European Court of Justice. The European Commission ruled in 2002 that feta is not a generic name but refers to cheeses made in certain parts of Greece. Cheese makers in Denmark and Germany appealed that ruling to the ECJ. But Advocate-General Damaso Ruiz-Jarabo Colomer has advised the ECJ to rule in favor of Greece. His opinion isn't binding, but the court reportedly upholds the advocate-general's opinion in about 80% of the cases it handles.

http://reason.com/brickbats/bb-2005.shtml

Was it missed here. I was away during the week that the major French and Dutch votes happened so I didnt see the forums here but looking at the forum traffic now, I dont see much mention of it. So I have a few questions:

1) Was it ignored here?

2) Why was it ignored here (if it was)?

3) What do you know about it?

4) What do you think about it?
I think the French killed the EU cons.

What, 60% of Spain's economy depends almost exclusively on tourism.that numbers is not logical.

in another words I say you are full of it...