NationStates Jolt Archive

A lot of people are very mixed heritage, and that's just fine. It's good...I like all the mixing. It means you have access (perhaps) to more than one tradition, and I'm all for trying out different ethnic identities when you have been born with them. However, I've run across a lot of people who rather than just saying, "I have a bit of native blood through such and such a relative, isn't that something", go onto to claim to BE aboriginal. Even if they were never raised as such. Having a grandfather who was a quarter native does not make you a native. Kind of like having a grandfather who was a quarter Irish does not make you Irish. You are what you are, and that existence is shaped by how, and where you were raised. Yes, you can be interested in your roots, and yes, you can explore them, but you are not a part of a culture just because you share distant ancestry.

My point is, some people want to enter into the native community (and other communities no doubt) based on their blood alone. They want to be able to take all the good things, and ignore the bad. To these people I say: go live on a reservation. Experience the despair. Experience the joy. Don't just study us and say, "I know what makes you tick, so now I can be one of you". Live it. Immerse yourself in the reality, not the study...become one of us...victims of incest, of abuse, of suicide, of depression, of hopelessness, of addiction, of prostitution, people with a lack of education, a people sidelined, sidetracked, lost and found, invented, reinvented, real, imaginary, struggling to escape, struggling to remain, contradictory, reviled, glorified...

Be proud to have native blood, but don't claim to be native. Not when you can escape that label any time you want. Not when all it is to you is something exotic to try.

I agree. [see? we CAN agree!]

but my great grandmother on my father's father's side was half miqmaq, you mean i cant claim to be a cherokee????

not being native myself i dont feel the same annoyance you do.

i am bugged big time by those feather wearing, blessing way, sweat lodge, spirit guide white people who want to pick and choose the pieces of indian culture that strike their fancy and think that somehow makes them virtual natives and that they are somehow living on a higher spiritual plane than the rest of us.

I agree. [see? we CAN agree!]
ARGHH!!!!!!! (If I can't argue with you, life isn't worth living!)

A lot of people are very mixed heritage, and that's just fine.

[ snippage ]

Be proud to have native blood, but don't claim to be native. Not when you can escape that label any time you want. Not when all it is to you is something exotic to try.
Did you ever see the movie "Soul Man?" Near the end, the main character, ( who was white but stained his skin black so he could qualify for assistance as a minority student in paying for his college education ), told a Professor ( who was African American ) that one of the most important lessons he had learned from his temporary "minority status" was that his experience of being a member of a minority was flawed because he could "get out any time" he wanted to.

The Professor's response was that the student had learned even more than the Professor had initially thought.

i am bugged big time by those feather wearing, blessing way, sweat lodge, spirit guide white people who want to pick and choose the pieces of indian culture that strike their fancy and think that somehow makes them virtual natives and that they are somehow living on a higher spiritual plane than the rest of us.
Yup. And the ones who like to speak for natives based on the fact that they have some native ancestry. I'd prefer to speak for myself...but barring that, I'd take a full-blooded Han who has grown up on a Reservation over a wannabe, anyday.

Picking and choosing pieces of other cultures is okay to a point. Hennaed hands are nice, and nose-piercings can be sexy...but such things do not make you East Indian or whatever. And most people don't claim that they do...so why is is somehow okay to claim to be native just because you tan well and you took an aboriginal history course, and maybe somewhere down the line, you have an Indian in the woodpile?

Did you ever see the movie "Soul Man?" Near the end, the main character, ( who was white but stained his skin black so he could qualify for assistance as a minority student in paying for his college education ), told a Professor ( who was African American ) that one of the most important lessons he had learned from his temporary "minority status" was that his experience of being a member of a minority was flawed because he could "get out any time" he wanted to.

The Professor's response was that the student had learned even more than the Professor had initially thought.
I loved that movie, and I loved that quote. It's exactly true. It's one thing to join in when times are good...and quite another to duck and cover when they aren't, using the 'rest' of your heritage to shield you.

ARGHH!!!!!!! (If I can't argue with you, life isn't worth living!)

I disagree! [launches a ten page essay on why life IS worth living and why you are a commie for disagreeing!]

According to my tribal tradition, if you have even a drop of Native blood, you are Native and should live like it. We don't mind if a person with a single great-great-great-great grandmother was Native ... they are allowed to call themselves Native.

But, then, we're not so stuck up. *coff* ;)

Yes, white culture is boring, but hey, there is nothing you can do about it. The Jews have the Qaballah, the Japanese have anime, and when combined, they pwn. What do we white people have? Reality TV?

According to my tribal tradition, if you have even a drop of Native blood, you are Native and should live like it. We don't mind if a person with a single great-great-great-great grandmother was Native ... they are allowed to call themselves Native.

But, then, we're not so stuck up. *coff* ;)
What does 'living like it' mean exactly? Does it mean respecting traditions that hell, most young Natives don't even respect? Does it mean speaking a language that hell, most young Natives aren't fluent in? Does it mean loving hip hop over pow-wow music, because most of us do. Does it mean also living the culture of despair and addiction? Does it mean dropping out in junior high, then going back in your thirties, after a decade of alcoholism and disconnection? Does have a 'drop' of native blood give someone the right to speak for native people...even just the native people of the tribe to which they 'belong'? How could a person who has not been raised a native possibly understand what that is like? How could they possibly say they belong, when they have lived their whole life outside?

I'm not entirely sure I agree with you, though it may be the result of a misinterpretation. I don't see the point of isolating a culture, and making it elitest and unobtainable. If someone loved that culture, and wanted to be a part of it, lived, adopted the traditions, and was, as far as anyone can tell, a part of that culture, then what has your DNA got to do with it? Why does your blood say "sorry, but you can't participate in our culture, you're the wrong colour".

Although, on second reading, I'm getting something new. Are you saying that it would be acceptable if they were to expose themselves to the same pitfalls that particular culture offer? they are entitled to "become a member" if they experience the same dangers? If that is the case, I do agree. Picking and choosing only the good bit of a culture is all well and good, but you can't truly claim to be a representative (as far as that word can be used) if you don't take the risks associated with it.

Yes, white culture is boring, but hey, there is nothing you can do about it.
I get that. And sometimes you need to immerse yourself in another culture in order to appreciate that yes, you actually DO have one after all. Borrow. Enjoy. Appreciate. But don't pretend.

Although, on second reading, I'm getting something new. Are you saying that it would be acceptable if they were to expose themselves to the same pitfalls that particular culture offer? they are entitled to "become a member" if they experience the same dangers? If that is the case, I do agree. Picking and choosing only the good bit of a culture is all well and good, but you can't truly claim to be a representative (as far as that word can be used) if you don't take the risks associated with it.
Yes. You don't have to have native blood to be native. But you DO have to be part of the community, and you don't "vote yourself in".

According to my tribal tradition, if you have even a drop of Native blood, you are Native and should live like it. We don't mind if a person with a single great-great-great-great grandmother was Native ... they are allowed to call themselves Native.

But, then, we're not so stuck up. *coff* ;)

the blood requirements that many tribes have takes them down the road to vanishing eh? if you have to have 25% and you marry outside the tribe your kids arent members.

a elderly isletan woman was denied tribal status last year even though she had lived in the pueblo all her life. they decided her blood status wasnt good enough.

I have NO Native blood in me, not a drop, but I can understand your frustration. I always get a kick out of it when I'm around someone who claims to be Native and then gets challenged on it by someone who is the real deal. I've been a junkie and in that capcity, I met a lot of Natives, on the streets, in rehabs, shooting up beside me, or having a drink in my shooting gallery while the rest of us got high as a kite. After getting clean, I've visited Native friends I made during those times, some of whome have managed to stay clean too, on the Reserves.

In the course of that, I heard stories that your average middle-class citizen wouldn't beleive, though I knew they were true. I also aqquired even more respect for my Native friends that have managed to keep things together while living on a Reserve. Reserves aren't just an example of Apartheid, they were the model for Apartheid, and it shows. People like to be exotic, but they don't like to suffer, thus all the fakers that get you upset. I wonder if there was a particular incident that got you pissed off enough to create this thread?

For a short time during adolescence, I had the silly desire to be of a cultrue or "race" other than the one I was born into. It didn't last long though, because my background is quite rariefied to begin with and I have a much more direct connection to it than most North Americans do. (Dispossessed Aristocracy from a part of Germany that no longer exists due to Soviet ethnic cleansing, there aren't many of us around) But I think the melting pot of cultures over here leaves most people struggling to find any roots at all. They latch on to whatever they can. Being of mixed heritage gives a person access to many traditions in theory, but in actual fact just leads to confusion.

I understand your anger, but I don't think there's much you can do about the problem.

I loved that movie, and I loved that quote. It's exactly true. It's one thing to join in when times are good...and quite another to duck and cover when they aren't, using the 'rest' of your heritage to shield you.
Sinuhue, if we're not careful, we might end up agreeing on more things than on those where we disagree. ;)

the blood requirements that many tribes have takes them down the road to vanishing eh? if you have to have 25% and you marry outside the tribe your kids arent members.

a elderly isletan woman was denied tribal status last year even though she had lived in the pueblo all her life. they decided her blood status wasnt good enough.
The blood quota has been used to 'breed' natives out and to isolate them, but ironically, it is now being used to 'reap benefits' such as scholarships and bursuries. It's a tricky issue...and few other ethnicities have blood quotas...yet dogs and horses are bred like this...

How could they possibly say they belong, when they have lived their whole life outside?

For the same reason a black child adopted at birth by a white couple and raised in a suburban lutheran environment can claim to be black. No amount of nature or nurture can change your spirit.

We believe sometimes that native people were born with white or black faces. It is not the face that counts. It's very similar to the Jewish belief that sometimes Jewish souls are born into goyisher bodies - which explains why you can convert to being Jewish.

We're not as concerned with the physical appearance, but more with the intentions. If a lilly white, blue eyed guy happens to farm the land, pay homage to nature, and respect the natural way of things, who am I to complain? If he does it because 8 generations ago on his mother's side he was Comanche, even better. It means the Native Spirit lives on.

Yes, being white American, I have no artforms that I like in my culture.

I wonder if there was a particular incident that got you pissed off enough to create this thread? It's always been a pet peeve, and I happen to be one of those people who does the 'calling of it' quite often when people make these claims. You see, I myself am half white. Some people don't look at me and see me as native, while others do. My skin colour is not the issue. Being raised native is. So when people claim to be native, it's usually easy to ferret out the truth. You ask them where they are from, who they are related to, out of politeness, because we seek for common relations. Someone familiar with this tradition answers easily. Someone who is not, thinks you are interrogating them, and one quickly realises their connections are tenuous at the best. As an activist, I run across a lot of people who due to their lack of 'minority' ethnicity, feel for some reason left out, or unable to speak to issues in the same way as minorities can. This is bunk, but I understand that people who have been born into a particular socio-economic class feel that others may perceive them as privileged and they want to escape that by claiming to be part of an underclass. Which is why people say things like, "I have gay friends. I'm part native. I listen to rap, I know the ghetto is bad..." and so on. They want to be part of a fight for global justice, but they don't feel like they have validity because of who they are. In a sense, they are right...but not in the way they think. They are right to think they should not speak for gays, or natives, or so and sos when they are not a part of that community. But that doesn't mean they can't support us.

The blood quota has been used to 'breed' natives out and to isolate them, but ironically, it is now being used to 'reap benefits' such as scholarships and bursuries. It's a tricky issue...and few other ethnicities have blood quotas...yet dogs and horses are bred like this...
that dog and horse thing isnt a point in favor of blood tests is it??

i dont see why there should be a blood requirement at all. it should be up to the tribal govt to decide who is and who is not a member according to their own laws and tradtions. why should someone who is 100% full blood get the "benefits" of membership if they have never lived a day of the culture? why should someone who grew up on the rez and lived the culture ever day of his life be denied because it turns out his ancestry isnt tribal after all?

Sinuhue, if we're not careful, we might end up agreeing on more things than on those where we disagree. ;)
NEVER! DOWN WITH THE ARMIES OF THE EARTH!!!!!

For the same reason a black child adopted at birth by a white couple and raised in a suburban lutheran environment can claim to be black. No amount of nature or nurture can change your spirit.
We are not talking about a child that is 1/32 black claiming to be black here. And we are not talking about skin colour, we are talking about culture.

We believe sometimes that native people were born with white or black faces. It is not the face that counts. It's very similar to the Jewish belief that sometimes Jewish souls are born into goyisher bodies - which explains why you can convert to being Jewish.
Again, I would take a full blooded Han who grew up as a Native over a person who has a quarter native blood but knows nothing of our traditions, other than what he or she has studied in school.

Yes, being white American, I have no artforms that I like in my culture.

:eek: Thats horrible. What closet have you been kept in? There's all kinds of awesome art out there that is not only done by Americans, but also originated in America. TG me if you want to find out more.
[/TANGENT]

Don't wanna hijack your thread Sinehue, I just couldn't let that one go by.

Yes, being white American, I have no artforms that I like in my culture.
I hope you're kidding...there is a lot to appreciate in EVERY culture. However, we often can't see it until we are separated for a time from our culture...travelling helps you to see your culture with fresh eyes.

that dog and horse thing isnt a point in favor of blood tests is it?? No, it's my poor attempt to paraphrase a quote I can't quite remember which basically makes the comparison a scathing condemnation of the practice:).

i dont see why there should be a blood requirement at all. it should be up to the tribal govt to decide who is and who is not a member according to their own laws and tradtions. why should someone who is 100% full blood get the "benefits" of membership if they have never lived a day of the culture? why should someone who grew up on the rez and lived the culture ever day of his life be denied because it turns out his ancestry isnt tribal after all?
Exactly so.

I'll be back in an hour-ish...DEBATE ON!!!

Yes, being white American, I have no artforms that I like in my culture.
you have to stop considering yourself a white american and start thinking of yourself as an american.

then you can claim it all, indian drumming, tap dancing, the blues, mariachi, hiphop, afrocuban drumming, bluegrass, it goes on and on and thats just the music part

Again, I would take a full blooded Han who grew up as a Native over a person who has a quarter native blood but knows nothing of our traditions, other than what he or she has studied in school.

Well I'm a quarter blood and I know nothing of your traditions, but then, we're not the same tribe. I know my tribe and much about the surrounding tribes, but I don't remember which tribe you belong to (sorry).

Anyway, I'll take someone who is of partial breed and studies to learn with passion and exuberance over a full blood who mindlessly follows "tradition".

I hope you're kidding...there is a lot to appreciate in EVERY culture. However, we often can't see it until we are separated for a time from our culture...travelling helps you to see your culture with fresh eyes.

Yes, but I don't like American artwork.

Yes, but I don't like American artwork.
then you havent seen enough of it

Yes, but I don't like American artwork.

Pfft. Yes you do. You just don't know it. I guarentee you, if you actually like any kind of art, at least one pice that you've encountered and liked was by an American artist.

[/HIJACK]

oops, back to thread

Pfft. Yes you do. You just don't know it. I guarentee you, if you actually like any kind of art, at least one pice that you've encountered and liked was by an American artist.

[/HIJACK]

oops, back to thread
do an art thread, downmarching, i love american art.

A lot of people are very mixed heritage, and that's just fine. It's good...I like all the mixing. It means you have access (perhaps) to more than one tradition, and I'm all for trying out different ethnic identities when you have been born with them. However, I've run across a lot of people who rather than just saying, "I have a bit of native blood through such and such a relative, isn't that something", go onto to claim to BE aboriginal. Even if they were never raised as such. Having a grandfather who was a quarter native does not make you a native. Kind of like having a grandfather who was a quarter Irish does not make you Irish. You are what you are, and that existence is shaped by how, and where you were raised. Yes, you can be interested in your roots, and yes, you can explore them, but you are not a part of a culture just because you share distant ancestry.

My point is, some people want to enter into the native community (and other communities no doubt) based on their blood alone. They want to be able to take all the good things, and ignore the bad. To these people I say: go live on a reservation. Experience the despair. Experience the joy. Don't just study us and say, "I know what makes you tick, so now I can be one of you". Live it. Immerse yourself in the reality, not the study...become one of us...victims of incest, of abuse, of suicide, of depression, of hopelessness, of addiction, of prostitution, people with a lack of education, a people sidelined, sidetracked, lost and found, invented, reinvented, real, imaginary, struggling to escape, struggling to remain, contradictory, reviled, glorified...

Be proud to have native blood, but don't claim to be native. Not when you can escape that label any time you want. Not when all it is to you is something exotic to try.

I agree with this.

you have to stop considering yourself a white american and start thinking of yourself as an american.

then you can claim it all, indian drumming, tap dancing, the blues, mariachi, hiphop, afrocuban drumming, bluegrass, it goes on and on and thats just the music part
That's true...being Canadian or American or whatever IS a culture, and like all cultures, there are good and bad things about it, but the fact is, it is unlike any other culture...even though it is made up of many different cultures. I guess that's why it's harder to see it...there is no ONE symbol, no ONE food, no ONE way...

Well I'm a quarter blood and I know nothing of your traditions, but then, we're not the same tribe. I know my tribe and much about the surrounding tribes, but I don't remember which tribe you belong to (sorry).

Anyway, I'll take someone who is of partial breed and studies to learn with passion and exuberance over a full blood who mindlessly follows "tradition".
What are we talking about here...personal 'Indian' preferences? Are you seriously going to tell a full blood traditionalist that he or she is not as native as some person with 1/32 blood who took Native studies at University? Do you honestly think that studying a culture makes you a part of it? No cultural anthropologist worth her salt would back you up on that. I'm Paul Band Cree...what tribe names you a member? Are you naming yourself Native, or are you accepted as such by others?

I disagree. People should be able to show all sides of their heratige. It should be noted that a race, and the culture of that race are seperate. A white man, who grew up in aboriginal culture is part of that culture. An aboriginal who grew up in Ireland is still part of the aboriginal race.

I disagree. People should be able to show all sides of their heratige. It should be noted that a race, and the culture of that race are seperate. A white man, who grew up in aboriginal culture is part of that culture. An aboriginal who grew up in Ireland is still part of the aboriginal race.
There is a difference between claiming (legitimately) Aboriginal heritage in terms of ethnicity and claiming to be part of Aboriginal culture. It is the latter that bothers me, when the person bases this claim solely on having some (minute) Aboriginal heritage, and no cultural connections.

What are we talking about here...personal 'Indian' preferences? Are you seriously going to tell a full blood traditionalist that he or she is not as native as some person with 1/32 blood who took Native studies at University? Do you honestly think that studying a culture makes you a part of it? No cultural anthropologist worth her salt would back you up on that. I'm Paul Band Cree...what tribe names you a member? Are you naming yourself Native, or are you accepted as such by others?

No, just a difference in tribal thinking, I suppose. A full traditionalist who doesn't know why they follow said traditions is no better off than a faker in my mind.

I am Nakohodotsi Caddo. Not sure what you mean by naming yourself or accepted. Such things don't matter as much to us. I was born Nakohodotsi. There's no getting around that no matter what the other 3/4s of me are or by which religion I dictate my life or by which deity I choose to pray.

I'm also Jewish because my mother is Jewish. There is no getting around that no matter what the rest of me is or by which religion I dictate my life or by which deity I choose to pray.

I take it ya'll have some sort of tribal council that is set up to determine who is and who isn't a member of your tribe? Our criteria is by birth tradition, set centuries ago by long dead elders. That hasn't changed a bit. We don't care if you're 100%, 25%, or 0.0000000000000000001% Nakohodotsi. You will be equally welcomed.

I take it ya'll have some sort of tribal council that is set up to determine who is and who isn't a member of your tribe? Our criteria is by birth tradition, set centuries ago by long dead elders. That hasn't changed a bit. We don't care if you're 100%, 25%, or 0.0000000000000000001% Nakohodotsi. You will be equally welcomed.
Our tribe is our family. You are born into it, or adopted into it. In MOST tribes, you will be related in some way or another to every other person in that tribe. You don't "join" a family unless that family brings you in. Now, that being said, a person who is distantly related to us, but whose family has no connections with us within the last couple of generations, is not considered to be part of our family, our tribe. That doesn't mean it will always be so...but existing out there in limbo, with no connections to us, does not make a person one of us.

My question to you is...what are your connections to your tribe? Were you, your parents, or your grandparents raised as natives? Do you have any immediate experience through your relations, or connections to the native community? Or are you, by function of your heritage, claiming to be part of a culture that you in fact, know only from the outside?

No, just a difference in tribal thinking, I suppose. A full traditionalist who doesn't know why they follow said traditions is no better off than a faker in my mind. Oh, I see. "As one Indian to another"...you can not be a traditionalist and not understand why you follow the traditions you do. You can not separate traditions from our elder's teachings. They are one and the same. Nothing we teach our children is taught in a vacume. You can not say, I do this thing, but I do not know why.

Our tribe is our family. You are born into it, or adopted into it. In MOST tribes, you will be related in some way or another to every other person in that tribe. You don't "join" a family unless that family brings you in. Now, that being said, a person who is distantly related to us, but whose family has no connections with us within the last couple of generations, is not considered to be part of our family, our tribe. That doesn't mean it will always be so...but existing out there in limbo, with no connections to us, does not make a person one of us.

Ok I think I see what you're getting at now. Though we have no generational restrictions. If the tribal blood flows anywhere in your veins, you're one of us and can claim it.

My question to you is...what are your connections to your tribe? Were you, your parents, or your grandparents raised as natives? Do you have any immediate experience through your relations, or connections to the native community? Or are you, by function of your heritage, claiming to be part of a culture that you in fact, know only from the outside?

My father's mother was full blood and raised my father on the traditions of the tribe (he was the eldest son). I was given a mix of Jewish and Native upbringing. I can't know it from the outside ... I was born into it. It's not like I was born several states away or any as such. I was born and grew up in NE Texas and own 20 acres of original tribal land - my allotment from my grandmother. My connection is pretty strong, I'd say.

Ok I think I see what you're getting at now. Though we have no generational restrictions. If the tribal blood flows anywhere in your veins, you're one of us and can claim it.
Yes, the difference I am trying to outline is that we would not deny someone Native blood if they have it. Just as it would be foolish to deny someone their Irish or whatever heritage, simply because they only have a certain percentage. However, claiming to be Native based solely on blood, and not on culture, in fact, claiming to be part of a community, is what we get pissed off about. People who want cheques from the Band, but who don't want to be bothered with living on the Reservation. People who want to call themselves Aboriginal on their University applications, but who have never come up against the obstacles natives have to face...those who want the cake, but not the kick to the head that comes with it:)

Oh, I see. "As one Indian to another"...you can not be a traditionalist and not understand why you follow the traditions you do. You can not separate traditions from our elder's teachings. They are one and the same. Nothing we teach our children is taught in a vacume. You can not say, I do this thing, but I do not know why.

A lot of people do, though. It's like many Christians who listen to a preacher, but never themselves read the Bible. It happens all the time.

Of course, I suppose there's another difference involved. We're a farming tribe. 90% of the lessons of our elders was to know by the moon when to plant corn or how to make the soil proper for growing cucumbers. Not a whole lot of mysticism involved, really.

We're a pretty boring tribe when it comes to those who are seeking a deep mystical experience ... heh. Guess that's why we don't get too many outsiders pretending to be one of us. I guess if they want to know how to properly pick a tomato or know exactly when a radish is ripe they come to us.

A lot of people do, though. It's like many Christians who listen to a preacher, but never themselves read the Bible. It happens all the time.
You should be quite aware that you can not compare native traditions to an organised religion like Christianity. A traditionalist does not burn sweet grass and not know WHY they do it. I'm not sure what examples you are thinking of here of a traditionalist not understanding the why of what he or she does...?

Of course, I suppose there's another difference involved. We're a farming tribe. 90% of the lessons of our elders was to know by the moon when to plant corn or how to make the soil proper for growing cucumbers. Not a whole lot of mysticism involved, really.We're a pretty boring tribe when it comes to those who are seeking a deep mystical experience ... heh. Guess that's why we don't get too many outsiders pretending to be one of us. I guess if they want to know how to properly pick a tomato or know exactly when a radish is ripe they come to us.


Um...tomatoes are indigenous to South America, and weren't cultivated in your parts until fairly recently in terms of native history. Cucumbers and radishes as well are native to the old world, not to the Americas. So these traditions of which you speak can't be very old. Pumpkins, corn, beans...that I can see being a well-established tradition, but the others?

I agree pretty much with these statements. As Mexican half my blood is aboriginal, and in Mexico a lot of native traditions have been preserved in the food, the music, the religious rituals, the places, and the language. Look at my nation's name, it's Nahuatl.

And yet, I don't consider myself aboriginal, nor would Mexican natives consider me one of their own, because I haven't lived the same way as they have been doing in an uninterrupted manner for the last 500 years, in spite of attempts to destroy their culture and themselves.

And when you visit a native region in Mexico (no reservations) you can really notice the differences and realize that you are truly amongst different people, with whom you share a lot, but different, nonetheless.

Um...tomatoes are indigenous to South America, and weren't cultivated in your parts until fairly recently in terms of native history. Cucumbers and radishes as well are native to the old world, not to the Americas. So these traditions of which you speak can't be very old. Pumpkins, corn, beans...that I can see being a well-established tradition, but the others?

Meh ... we adapt well. Smaller tomato varieties have been in parts of Texas for centuries. After a couple hundred years of working with a particular fruit or vegitable, any group can figure out how to deal with it. The Europeans didn't get ahold of them until the 1500s, but they were the first people to make sauces from them and put that sauce on bread - pretty astounding innovation if you ask me.

Cucumbids, such as Canteloupe, have been around Texas for quite some time, too. Texas climate is great for melons. Oh, sure, we've had the varieties of squash and corn for way longer, but that doesn't change much. If we're introduced to something new and we like it, we learn about it and incorporate it.

If I figure out a perfect way to grow habaneros, I'll pass the knowledge on to my son - even though they're Cuban and have only been grown in TX for less than 100 years. Food's food, man.

I agree pretty much with these statements. As Mexican half my blood is aboriginal, and in Mexico a lot of native traditions have been preserved in the food, the music, the religious rituals, the places, and the language. Look at my nation's name, it's Nahuatl.

And yet, I don't consider myself aboriginal, nor would Mexican natives consider me one of their own, because I haven't lived the same way as they have been doing in an uninterrupted manner for the last 500 years, in spite of attempts to destroy their culture and themselves.

And when you visit a native region in Mexico (no reservations) you can really notice the differences and realize that you are truly amongst different people, with whom you share a lot, but different, nonetheless.
It is so different in North America, with these ideas of blood quotas and membership...most Latinos can claim (much more legitimately than most North Americans) native blood, but wouldn't dream of calling themselves Indians (though deep routed prejudices have a lot to do with this as well). I just find it so frustrating that we are kept at the margins of society, and yet we are brought out when it pleases others and glorified for our culture, at the same time as our culture is steadily being eroded and taken from us. People who try to speak for us, who try to talk about their 'experience' as one of us, who take it upon themselves to champion 'our cause' make me very angry. We are capable of raising our own voices. Your tenuous connection through blood does not qualify you to be a spokesperson./rant

If I figure out a perfect way to grow habaneros, I'll pass the knowledge on to my son - even though they're Cuban and have only been grown in TX for less than 100 years. Food's food, man.
Tell that to the people of the corn. Tell that to the Inuvialuit who still subsist on seals, whale and caribou. Tell that to my people, who still use bear grease and who hunt moose and elk. Food is food, yes, but we have our traditions and our ties to the land for a reason. When we have subsisted for thousands of years on particular food sources, our connections to those sources are much deeper, and much more meaningful than they could ever be to new sources of food. Yes, we adapt...and eventually things may make their way into our tradition...but that only goes so far.

we are brought out when it pleases others and glorified for our culture, at the same time as our culture is steadily being eroded and taken from us. People who try to speak for us, who try to talk about their 'experience' as one of us, who take it upon themselves to champion 'our cause' make me very angry.

Aye ... 'tis annoying. I blame the Wiccans.

I'll be back tomorrow to continue this discussion. Have a good night, everyone!

Tell that to the people of the corn. Tell that to the Inuvialuit who still subsist on seals, whale and caribou. Tell that to my people, who still use bear grease and who hunt moose and elk. Food is food, yes, but we have our traditions and our ties to the land for a reason.

Yes, yes of course. But, again, you're speaking about a very divergent tribal difference. We take no issue with incorporating other tribal traditions into our own. We have a whole treaty called Tejas with the Comanche people that basically makes us one tribe. Different traditions, incorporated into one, centuries ago.

We recognised a long, long time ago that the ones driving the world wanted it to change and we could either change and grow with it or die in its wake. That adaptation and incorporation has been a part of our tribal tradition since long before we ever set eyes on a Spaniard.

So ... me learning about a new vegetable and studying how to grow it and place it in my garden *is* part of our ancient tribal practise.

So ... me learning about a new vegetable and studying how to grow it and place it in my garden *is* part of our ancient tribal practise.
I think that the conflict comes in that Northern nations are hunters while those further down South tend to have incorporated agriculture. And learning to hunt and cook a new animal probably has a much deeper impact than planting a new vegetal.

Texas, especially, was in the middle of the way between the Mesoamerican (Aztec, Toltec, Chichimec, etc.), the Mississippi Valley nations, and the Anasazi; there must have been commerce coming and going for millenia, that could have made them more welcoming to new traditions.

I think that the conflict comes in that Northern nations are hunters while those further down South tend to have incorporated agriculture. And learning to hunt and cook a new animal probably has a much deeper impact than planting a new vegetal.

Texas, especially, was in the middle of the way between the Mesoamerican (Aztec, Toltec, Chichimec, etc.), the Mississippi Valley nations, and the Anasazi; there must have been commerce coming and going for millenia, that could have made them more welcoming to new traditions.

Nod. It's always fascinating talking to a Northern tribesperson, though. The differences are amazing. For instance, our experience with the Europeans were from the Spaniards. They first found us in the 1530s (if I remember my history correctly) and were our whole European experience until almost the Texas revolution. Much of our Native language changed over those couple hundred years to incorporate some Spanish.

We'd also had involvement with certain Louisiana and Arkansas tribes, which gave us some exposure to the French and Cajuns in later years and even some involvement with Native Mexicans through the Karankawa (now extinct) from the Houston area.

The Northern tribes had more problems with American western expansion. Not any better of a deal, mind you, but brings a whole different perspective to the "Indian Experience". They were driven out by greed and malice, slaughtered in the name of gold while 300 years before that, we were facing the Spaniards at the height of their particularly nasty little Inquisition.

Gives a bit of a different world view, I would imagine.

Be proud to have native blood, but don't claim to be native. Not when you can escape that label any time you want. Not when all it is to you is something exotic to try.

It was with more of a sense of relief that I learned about my small portion of native blood. Youngest of five siblings, our family ran the gamut, genetically speaking. My eldest brother has blue eyes, blonde hair, a patrician nose and skin that burns at the slightest suggestion of sunlight. At the other end of the scale, I am swarthy-skinned, dark of complexion, with brown hair and eyes. You need the interceding three siblings present to make the connection that we're all related, and even then, it's a little hit-and-miss. Put myself and my oldest brother together, and it'd be easy to assume we're unrelated.

Somehow, in the genetic lottery of life, I won out with more native traits than anyone else in this generation of my family. I don't go around claiming to be native, and never have. That being said, I do look more native than European. I never made the connection, growing up far away from New Brunswick - the few natives I saw growing up in the city were from southern Ontario and western Quebec. So it kinda blew me away last year when I saw all that footage of pissed-off Miq'Maqs in New Brunswick - 'cause suddenly there were people who looked like me on TV. Same hair. Same nose. Same swarthy complexion. Same builds. Same bloody everything. Believe me, after a whole lifetime of people constantly getting my ethnicity wrong (seventh-generation Scots Canadian, with just that one lil' smidge o' Miq'Maq - see what happens with recessive traits? Sheesh!), and not having any experience of Scots who looked much at all like me, can you understand how good it felt to finally see a group, some group. any group, anywhere, that I bear a strong resemblance to?

and not having any experience of Scots who looked much at all like me, can you understand how good it felt to finally see a group, some group. any group, anywhere, that I bear a strong resemblance to?
Yup, I can. And again, I certainly wouldn't deny anyone their native heritage. But you don't seem like the type to run around saying, "I'm Native, I'm Native, and I'm going to talk about Native issues because I'm one of them". Even if you wanted to explore your heritage...even if you wanted to learn more about that part of your culture...that is all fine, and actually, would be pretty flattering...but it's no guarantee that you would be accepted as native by other natives. Here. Apparently it's different in the southern US. Then again, I don't think that's at all what you're talking about so... :fluffle:

Aye ... 'tis annoying. I blame the Wiccans.
Why the Wiccans in particular? I actually rather find it is our own government that likes to parade us out in full ceremonial garb, then stuff us back in the closet when they no longer need our 'exotic' looks.

I've seen plenty of people who say that they've been in combat (when they haven't), or been in the Rangers (when they haven't) - I can't fathom why they would say such a thing.

If they knew how hard, low paid, and brutal the lifestyle was, they would wish for something else.

I believe that some people like the aura or mystique or reputation that comes with certain groups - and they want to put that on like a set of fashionable clothing - without, of course, having to really live that way.

I've seen plenty of people who say that they've been in combat (when they haven't), or been in the Rangers (when they haven't) - I can't fathom why they would say such a thing.

If they knew how hard, low paid, and brutal the lifestyle was, they would wish for something else.

I believe that some people like the aura or mystique or reputation that comes with certain groups - and they want to put that on like a set of fashionable clothing - without, of course, having to really live that way.
That's a very good example. I guess there are people of all walks who want to be part of a group they have no right to name themselves a part of...all the glory, none of the guts, right? I think that glorification is dangerous though...as you've said, it completely ignores the reality of the situation. As well, when people like Ward Churchill speak for natives, it isn't he that is going to have to deal with repercussions...it is us. The same would go, I imagine for some idiot spouting shit about combat and about what soldiers do, when they really know nothing at all about it. Grrrrr. *grinds axe*

That's a very good example. I guess there are people of all walks who want to be part of a group they have no right to name themselves a part of...all the glory, none of the guts, right? I think that glorification is dangerous though...as you've said, it completely ignores the reality of the situation. As well, when people like Ward Churchill speak for natives, it isn't he that is going to have to deal with repercussions...it is us. The same would go, I imagine for some idiot spouting shit about combat and about what soldiers do, when they really know nothing at all about it. Grrrrr. *grinds axe*
I've also seen plenty of Native people who never lived on a reservation (not for a few generations). They don't have anything in common with their original culture, or the current lifestyle of those who are on reservations.

No original language, religion, etc. They look like suburban white-bread people to me - and they act that way.

It's one thing to have the blood - and I'm not so sure it's that important. What is important is the life experience of having lived a certain way - for years.

I have this mental picture of Ward Churchill on his first night living with an Inuit hunting group, trying to fathom how to eat a piece of fat. Trying desperately to stay warm - and to keep up with the others. Stumbling around in the arctic cold.

Or we could give him an arctic winter of boredom, permanent unemployment, and the lure of cheap alcohol and see what he's really made of.

Why the Wiccans in particular? I actually rather find it is our own government that likes to parade us out in full ceremonial garb, then stuff us back in the closet when they no longer need our 'exotic' looks.

I was kidding. :D

I've also seen plenty of Native people who never lived on a reservation (not for a few generations). They don't have anything in common with their original culture, or the current lifestyle of those who are on reservations.

No original language, religion, etc. They look like suburban white-bread people to me - and they act that way.You don't tend to see many Natives living in the suburbs in Canada. More often, when they are off Rez, they live in the Moccasin Flats...the name invariably given to the inner city housing projects or tumble down homes that urban natives flock to. Few urban natives live completely outside the native community. There are really two native cultures...the traditional, and the modern, and those two cultures are sometimes at peace, sometimes at war. The urban native is cut off from his or her roots. They don't feel the land...they don't learn all the traditions...they live in poverty, amidst drug addiction, crime, and despair. But that is native culture too. A poor, urban native experiences his socioeconomic situation differently than a poor, white, asian or 'anything' in the city. A native who has no grasp of the traditional, but who is quite cognizant of the modern, is still a native. Unless this person's entire family no longer has any ties to their traditions, he or she will ALWAYS have a way back to us. They can rediscover their traditional culture...but it's usually with the help of parents, grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles and so on.

It's one thing to have the blood - and I'm not so sure it's that important. What is important is the life experience of having lived a certain way - for years.Yes. And as I've said...an urban native can speak for the experiences of urban natives, and a traditional native will probably be able to speak for both...but a pureblood who is completely disconected from us can speak only as an individual with native blood in that particular situation.

I have this mental picture of Ward Churchill on his first night living with an Inuit hunting group, trying to fathom how to eat a piece of fat. Trying desperately to stay warm - and to keep up with the others. Stumbling around in the arctic cold.

Or we could give him an arctic winter of boredom, permanent unemployment, and the lure of cheap alcohol and see what he's really made of.
Both scenarios are true native experiences. I'd hate for him to have the one without the other.

I was kidding. :D
Just checking...I thought it might have been a personal axe of yours to grind:)

Just checking...I thought it might have been a personal axe of yours to grind:)

Heh ... no ... I don't really have any personal axes to grind.

Heh ... no ... I don't really have any personal axes to grind.
Liar. We all have a closet of them:). Some of us just do it in private, is all! *pictures Keruvalia grinding the axe of "someone keeps leaving the cap off the toothpaste"*

Liar. We all have a closet of them:). Some of us just do it in private, is all! *pictures Keruvalia grinding the axe of "someone keeps leaving the cap off the toothpaste"*

*snicker* Well I am pretty particular about which way the toilet paper is placed on the roll ... and I'm not a fan of cilantro ... and I also find myself wondering why Renee Zellweger has a career ...

Ok maybe I have one or two ... small ones.

Okay damnit, I've had my cup of coffee, and I need someone to argue with me about this!!!!

Okay damnit, I've had my cup of coffee, and I need someone to argue with me about this!!!!
The problem is you're so agreeable.

Okay damnit, I've had my cup of coffee, and I need someone to argue with me about this!!!!


okie dokie then!

Hrm....

I found out that somewhere in my blood, I come from ancient Egypt. Which I brag about. I also claim to represent the old ways, and worship Isis, Ra, Set, Anubis, Horus, and the rest of the gang. In fact, with my nigh-encyclopedic* knowledge of the ancient Egyptians,


RIGHTS FOR EGYPTIANS NOW!

I hate the way people discriminate against us Egyptians. it sickens me.

*may not be encyclopedic, or even nigh encyclopedic.

The problem is you're so agreeable.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/sinuhuewithaxetogrind.bmp

Okay damnit, I've had my cup of coffee, and I need someone to argue with me about this!!!!
Ok...Im all yours :D bring it on...

...
here to for starters...let me show you my underwear
http://www.emerchandise.com/images/p/FGY/pdBXFGY0006.jpg

:D :D :eek: :D

I guess few people would admit to being a wannabe...

I guess few people would admit to being a wannabe... Old Yiddish saying: Tokhis oyfn tish. "Put up or Shut up". If you can't/won't prove it, don't claim it.

Old Yiddish saying: Tokhis oyfn tish. "Put up or Shut up". If you can't/won't prove it, don't claim it.
Problem is...how do you prove it without outing your RL?

Problem is...how do you prove it without outing your RL?
I find that if the person is consistent and accurate, it's more believable.

So, if I was going to ask if a new person really sounded like a Native from Canada, I might ask Sinuhue if they sounded real.

Problem is...how do you prove it without outing your RL?Aye, there's the rub. All you can really do is hope the person has the sense of Honor and Decency god gave a rock - that or hope they are stupid or arrogant enough to leave ready access to their RL name so that the Geneology Bots can the work for you...

Aye, there's the rub. All you can really do is hope the person has the sense of Honor and Decency god gave a rock - that or hope they are stupid or arrogant enough to leave ready access to their RL name so that the Geneology Bots can the work for you...
How does that work exactly?

question - what are your thoughts on the sort of sentiment expressed in this article (http://www.greenanarchy.org/zine/GA19/all-indigenous.php)?

"WE WERE ALL INDIGENOUS, AND CAN AGAIN BECOME . . .

I did not fall from space...
However alien I may appear to this planet, this land, these people, I come from this earth. From its water, its soil, its people, its blood. It has provided me with a life, which I willingly and humbly direct. Despite all attempts by the civilized logic to separate me, to dislocate me, to destroy my connection, I am still part of this fusion of life, this deeply integrated accumulation of living beings.

I, like all of us, have direct lineage to a different way of being, to a direct experience with the world. We once lived unmediated from the earth, ate directly from the forest, drank straight from its waters, slept touching the ground, healed ourselves with its plants, made all of our decisions concerning our lives with people we loved. We are still these people, only scarred, with cold and clunky armor created for us by a culture of death that we have reluctantly accepted when and where we have grown too tired and weak. We have been tamed. We have been domesticated. But, we are still connected under this baggage, this defensiveness, this disposition.

I have been severely damaged from generation after generation of upheaval, defeat, and domestication at the hands of colonizers, and at times I did the colonizing. But this was only after I had been sufficiently separated from the earth, others, and myself. But mostly, I have been just a pawn and a tool in the ongoing war against life. I have suffered greatly: in the direct brutality inflicted upon me in my own life, through more subtle institutionalized methods, as an accumulation of my ancestors' pain, and from missing out on a penetrating and more integrated connection to the world.

I have been moved so far from where my relations once dwelled, yet I can still feel connected to place. Maybe not in the same way that my relations did to the land they were indigenous to, or the people who were/are connected to where my feet currently rest, where I inhabit. But I can still go deep into the ground, take the air into my lungs, learn from the whispers of this place, offer my respectful and modest influence to this land, and unite the world around and within me.

we were all indigenous I have always felt dislocated within civilization. Whether the suburbs, the cities, or small towns, I have always felt suffocated, empty, and lost. Traveling from one location to the next, always over-idealizing the succeeding context. The grass always seemed greener. In this postmodern reality, dislocation is not the exception but the norm, and even the sought-after condition. We can never be whole as long as we live outside and above our surroundings, or for that matter, even view them as surroundings, and not as part of us. At some point I think it is important to find a place, a bioregion, a home (though not necessarily a sedentary location).

I have much to learn from those deeply connected to the place I call home, those who have an intimate relationship with the land, animals, plants, people, and patterns of this specific environment. I have most to learn from those who have evolved with this place; whose bodies, minds, spirits, and culture have developed alongside these mountains, birds, trees, and rivers. I do not wish to 'play native' or co-opt traditions, but to tap into and learn from a physical and spiritual knowledge, so that I can live respectfully and sustainably with this particular part of earth (which is comprised of infinitely diverse forms of life).

I have much to learn from the survivors. Those who were forcibly converted to patriarchal gods. Those who were burned at the stake. Those who were given blankets with smallpox. Those who were stolen from their homes and families and chained in the bellies of ships. Those who were pushed out of their lands and herded into camps. Those who were marched and dragged down trails of tears. Those who were stripped down, re-educated, and assimilated. Those who became beasts of burden. Those who were pitted against one another. Those who were put on trains, and again, herded into camps. Those who were gassed and burned. Those who were lynched. Those who were bombed. Those who were raped. Those who were beaten. Those who have been virtually destroyed, yet continue to endure. Those who have been whipped, yet amazingly continue to thrive. Those who attempt to regain their ancestral knowledge. Those who raise healthy children. Those who burn down the suburbs. Those who reconnect with the earth. Those who remember. Those who survive. And, I have much to learn from myself. I have much to remember.

I did not create this monstrosity, this leviathan, this death culture. I am both a by-product and survivor of it. I was not the first to step out of the forest. I did not create the first separations, plant the first corn, irrigate the first field, domesticate the first animal, subjugate the first woman, support the first stratification, fabricate the first weapon, construct the first city, build the first ship, enslave the first foreigner, kill the first indian, assemble the first railroad, erect the first factory, split the first atom, plant the first flag on the moon, genetically produce the first clone, and like Al Gore, I didn't invent the internet. But I am also profoundly tied to their legacy and their innovation and expansion. And I am also the victim of their legacy of death, domination, and destruction. "Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name [civilization]. But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game."

I know in my heart and in my bones that we can live differently, that we have lived differently, and that those possibilities can come together in beautiful ways. I have no expectations within this nightmare; my/our only hope is to wake up from the confusion. There is no future in this failed experiment; all I can do is reject it. There is no possibility of readjustment; it can only be destroyed. I must find a place, people, and a way to live differently; to reconnect and to dream.

We were all indigenous to somewhere, someone, and somehow...and can become so again. The old ways are gone, but I am still going home, not necessarily where I started, but maybe somewhere I began.

Wish us luck!"

Hmmm. Well, I agree actually. If more people thought of themselves as connected to the earth, rather than a master of it, somehow above and separate from it, I think we'd all be better off. Claiming to be a citizen of the earth, connected to it through our biological needs is not posing. it's a fact that indigenous people have held on to. It isn't claiming to be a native as in a member of a particular community...it is just reaffirming the fact that humans are animals, and animals rely on their environment for survival. Of course, if this person turned around and said, "Therefore, I am Cree", it'd be a swift kick to the nuts.

Yes, white culture is boring, but hey, there is nothing you can do about it. The Jews have the Qaballah, the Japanese have anime, and when combined, they pwn. What do we white people have? Reality TV?

I know it's an old post, but it's disturbing. The white man is certainly lost, I agree, but that's why Celtic and Norse revivals are recovering the traditions we lost to Roman invasions, industrial economics and commercialism.

Bottom line: if your culture seems empty or meaningless to you, it's your job to change it, contribute to it. If your people are lost, help them find the way. Use the tools your culture gives you to make the world a more meaningful place.

Maybe, if we're creative, there's a way to have the best of both worlds? The power of the internet ruled by sustainable Nature-based values instead of corporate ones?

Just a thought.

Of course, if this person turned around and said, "Therefore, I am Cree", it'd be a swift kick to the nuts.

heh. the green anarchy people usually pretty good at avoiding such silliness. certainly better than the new agers who go down to perform ceremonies at mayan temples and demand that the actual descendants of the maya move out of their way.

heh. the green anarchy people usually pretty good at avoiding such silliness. certainly better than the new agers who go down to perform ceremonies at mayan temples and demand that the actual descendants of the maya move out of their way.
You can usually spot those ones, because they're bent over at the waste, holding their packages. Yes, the women too. It hurts us, just a bit less.

Be proud to have native blood, but don't claim to be native. Not when you can escape that label any time you want. Not when all it is to you is something exotic to try.

Sinuhue, I am wondering how you woudl define someone who is "trying to be native". Is it when someone claims to be native without any real understanding of the culture, or when someone attempts to adopt native practices but simply doesn't have the cultural context to understand them? I know some non-natives who are trying desperately to "be native", and most of them are failing miserably.

Sinuhue, I am wondering how you woudl define someone who is "trying to be native". Is it when someone claims to be native without any real understanding of the culture, or when someone attempts to adopt native practices but simply doesn't have the cultural context to understand them? I know some non-natives who are trying desperately to "be native", and most of them are failing miserably.

Someone who is 'trying to be native' will claim native status, claim to belong to a particular tribe, put 'aboriginal' on any form that asks it, or that brings out their 'minority status' whenever they want to make some political point from a 'minority' view. Generally, these are people who have a bare smidgen of native ancestry, and absolutely no authentic experience as a native. They may even be a person who has studied native history, who has studied the language, but has never seen the other side of the coin. Someone who attempts to adopt native practices isn't necessarily trying to be native...most are just taking an 'exotic' piece of someone else's culture, just as we do with pieces of East Indian, Chinese, or 'whatever' culture. That doesn't bother me half as much as people who can easily 'stop' being native the second they stop claiming they are one.

I wonder...is this a purely North American phenomenon? Is it because we have the reservation system here, and bands have a certain amount of money they must spread around to the members? Is it because many white, middle-class people feel that they do not have the right, nor the authority to speak about global issues because of the privilege they currently enjoy...so they pretend to be part of an underclass? You don't see people in Latin America 'pretending' to be native, even when many of those people have a heck of a lot more native blood than most North Americans. Is it because there is nothing to gain from it? I don't really know. I just know that it baffles me, and angers me.

I wonder...is this a purely North American phenomenon? Is it because we have the reservation system here, and bands have a certain amount of money they must spread around to the members? Is it because many white, middle-class people feel that they do not have the right, nor the authority to speak about global issues because of the privilege they currently enjoy...so they pretend to be part of an underclass?

europeans in north america always had a really strange relationship with the concept of indigenous peoples. we started romantacizing 'the primitive' even as we were engaged in proactive violent exterminations of actual people. and we certainly liked some of the ideas of the haudenosaunee league, even as we called the people practicing them savages.