NationStates Jolt Archive

Believe it or not, there have been many respectful and hardworking US presidents over the years. Who do you think did the best job.

FDR in my opinion. He led the country through a depression and a World War, all while dealing with Polio.

His successor, Harry Truman comes in a close second.

I'd agree with FDR.

I still think Andrew Jackson's got the best character.

But for hardworking it'd have to be 'ol Lincoln. Poor guy was hated by people in his own country AND the CSA!

FDR was a failed socialist president who delayed the actual recovery with his anti-business zelaotry, kept useful information from his admirals so that Pearl Harbor was a sneack attack (hence treason), and let us be attacked by Japan so we could declare war on Germany. He broke every single one of his campaign promises and censored out anyone who disagreed with him.

A soaiclistic police state wherein leglisation is passed through tyranny by majority.

He's, in my opinion, one of the worst presidents we ever had.

For me, the best is either Reagan (defeated communism), Lincoln (Civil War), or Eisenhower (kept us out of nuclear holocaust, and was a great moderate).

3rd: Washington
2nd: Eisenhower
1st: Lincoln

Also, in my opinion, FDR was a power hungry politician. When the Supreme Court found some articles of the new deal unconstitutional, he tried to flood it with Justices that shared his socialistic ideals by adding 6 more justices.

FDR was a failed socialist president who delayed the actual recovery with his anti-business zelaotry, kept useful information from his admirals so that Pearl Harbor was a sneack attack (hence treason), and let us be attacked by Japan so we could declare war on Germany. He broke every single one of his campaign promises and censored out anyone who disagreed with him.

Didn't Germany declare war on the US?

In fact I think that the US was the only country that Hitler formally declared war against.



For me, the best is either Reagan (defeated communism),

Yeah, the collapse of communism was all due to Reagan :rolleyes:
You forgot about David Hasselhoff:p

We've never had a better President.

We've never had a better President.

Well if you feel that way why dont you go to a new country. I agree with FDR.

In 1940, the US Congress came within a single vote of effectively dissolving the US Army. It's a pretty good thing there was a "powerhungry, anti-business zealot" to counterbalance that bit of legislative brilliance. That said, the programs put forward in the New Deal have been the bedrock of the United States' social welfare program for the past 60 years.

The accusations about his withholding intelligence about the Pearl Harbor attack have been proved completely inaccurate. The logic itself is faulty. A stunning victory is always a better way to mobilize public opinion than a staggering defeat. Suppressing that sort of intelligence, even if it had existed, would have been pointless.

That said, with a little reading, I think you could find that Germany in fact declared war on the United States on December 8, 1941. It was a rather foolish move on Hitler's part, since FDR might well have had trouble convincing the US Congress to declare war on Germany as well as Japan after the Pearl Harbor attack. Then again, I suppose George Bush didn't have any trouble convincing the Congress to attack Iraq after the 9/11 attacks.

Washington, Lincoln, and FDR are certainly the top 3 (maybe top 5). Reagan did less to destroy communism than Gorbachev, and put the US into a massive financial deficit, besides. It's rather ironic that there's talk of changing the $10 bill to replace the father of the US Treasury dept., Alexander Hamilton, with the man whose financial policies devastated his country.

Truman, Eisenhower, and Jackson are all good choices, but I don't think you can compare their achievements to Washington or Lincoln. Even Woodrow Wilson would be a stretch.

You forgot about David Hasselhoff:p
I thought he beat up Hitler with one hand tied behind his back? And later spit on Stalin's face and shot him in the head 23 seconds later? Then he went on to spread capitalism throughout Vietnam and Korea?

I think Mount Rushmore got it right.

Washington
Jefferson
Lincoln
T. Roosevelt

If we carve one more, I'd vote for FDR.

Theodore rocked, you nincompoops! My proof is that FDR didn't even make it on Mt. Rushmore!

Now that's logic for you! But really, Theodore Roosevelt is a personal favorite but that doesn't make him the best. The best was Washington for stopping himself at two terms.

I think Mount Rushmore got it right.

Washington
Jefferson
Lincoln
T. Roosevelt

If we carve one more, I'd vote for FDR.
*wonders why the hell I didn't see that first*

Lyndon B. Johnson certainly could have been the greatest President. I'm inclined to agree about FDR's unconstitutionalism (a real word?) - although perhaps not that he was a 'socialist'. So my hilarious and constructive vote probably has to go for Bartlett.

FDR was a failed socialist president who delayed the actual recovery with his anti-business zelaotry, kept useful information from his admirals so that Pearl Harbor was a sneack attack (hence treason), and let us be attacked by Japan so we could declare war on Germany. He broke every single one of his campaign promises and censored out anyone who disagreed with him.

A soaiclistic police state wherein leglisation is passed through tyranny by majority.

He's, in my opinion, one of the worst presidents we ever had.

For me, the best is either Reagan (defeated communism), Lincoln (Civil War), or Eisenhower (kept us out of nuclear holocaust, and was a great moderate).


I disagree with the view that Roosevelt was a failed socialist: not at all, he sincerely believed in the principles of capitalism and market economy, but he felt necessary for the government to intervene to better people's lives. He understood that in times of crisis, it is the duty of the government to stand with the people. I therefore admire Roosevelt for his succesful policies of the New Deal, which gave great confidence to America's economy. Indeed, thousands of jobs have been created thanks to the New Deal.
Therefore, if I had to list, in my view, the best American Presidents, it would go as follows:
-FDR
-JFK
-Lincoln
-Clinton

Andrew Jackson? Not likely. He stole land from the Native Americans, forced them to move to a different state during winter, without proper clothing or supplies, resulting in the death of over 4,000 Cherokees. The other tribes fared no better. He also refused to follow the rulings of the Supreme Court if he didn't like what they said. (Certainly not something they teach in history class.) That's not character; that's arrogence. Sounds like the problem we have now in the U.S.
Eisenhower and his administration acheived nothing except to start our involvement in Vietnam.
No, even through no president is perfect, I think that JFK and Lincoln were the best.

Theodore rocked, you nincompoops! My proof is that FDR didn't even make it on Mt. Rushmore!

Now that's logic for you!

It sure is logic, except that the carving of Mt. Rushmroe began in 1927, five years before FDR was elected president. That's probably why Bill Clinton didn't make it up there, too...

Andrew Jackson? Not likely. He stole land from the Native Americans, forced them to move to a different state during winter, without proper clothing or supplies, resulting in the death of over 4,000 Cherokees. The other tribes fared no better. He also refused to follow the rulings of the Supreme Court if he didn't like what they said. (Certainly not something they teach in history class.) That's not character; that's arrogence. Sounds like the problem we have now in the U.S.
Eisenhower and his administration acheived nothing except to start our involvement in Vietnam.
No, even through no president is perfect, I think that JFK and Lincoln were the best.
Umm...just about every early President did something evil to the Native Americans. That's like singling out British Kings for being imperialistic and war-mongering.

FDR encouraged policies that relieved us of the Great Depression. He understood the importance of employment in a time of desperation. This contrasts with "Reaganomics" which are generally viewed as foolishness by most economists. Trickle down and "Reaganomics" were more of a political propaganda tool. Clinton had a wonderful approach to repairing the defecit. I don't mean to play partisan games, but I don't understand how anyone could promote the desetructive policies of the Reagan Administration.

Well if you feel that way why dont you go to a new country. I agree with FDR.

Am I the only one who thought, "huh wtf?" when reading this?

I thought he beat up Hitler with one hand tied behind his back? And later spit on Stalin's face and shot him in the head 23 seconds later? Then he went on to spread capitalism throughout Vietnam and Korea?

Sounds more like a Superman thing to do. I mean, he did bitchslap JFK

http://www.superdickery.com/dick/112.html

Nixon! Got us out of Vietnam. Went to China.

Nixon! Invaded Cambodia, thereby significantly escalating the war in Vietnam. Watergate scandal! Discgraced the office of the presidency!

He did go to China, though, and I'd give him points for detente.

1. John F. Kennedy
2. William J. Clinton
3. Abraham Lincoln

I have to give Woodrow Wilson a nod. He was the only world leader who worked for peace after WWI.

I think history would've unfolded differently if the world had listened to him and his 14 Point Plan. There would be no economic depression in Germany, a more stable democracy, and less bitterness. Thus preventing psychotics like Hitler from gaining hold.

Nixon! Invaded Cambodia, thereby significantly escalating the war in Vietnam. Watergate scandal! Discgraced the office of the presidency!


Hey, but he got us OUT of the war in the end. Which is more than you can say for any other president during that bloody fiasco. As for disgracing the office... I really could care less if an office feels disgraced. There are more important things to consider. ;)

The constitution of Weimar Germany was nothing to do with Wilson - there's no guarantee he would have gone for anything other than the soft-minded coalition set-up that allowed for the political undermining of the system. I agree that Wilson was rare, and worthy, in 'working for peace', but that isn't necessarily enough. Furthermore, to suggest that had he not had a stroke etc., Hitler wouldn't have risen seems ridiculous, given that no President could have controlled the economic situation leading up to the Wall Street Crash. That surely had a far greater impact on Germany's state than did anything the IARC came up with.

I do like to give Wilson a nod, but I'm wary of ascribing too much importance to the failure of the League of Nations. Just as important was the failure of the United States (or the inability of the UK) to play the role of economic hegemon in the 1920s. The Bretton Woods institutions of the post-WWII era should have been implemented 20 years earlier.

I'm still shocked that so many people give JFK and Bill Clinton credit above Washington and Lincoln. Certainly, they were good presidents, but neither can show accomplishments of the degree that Washington (who in large measure defined what the office of the presidency should be, prevented a military coup against the fledgling US, and proved pivotal in several ways to the survival of the US during and after the American Revolution) or Lincoln (who held the country together during perhaps a civil war and whose greatest failure is perhaps that he did not live to facilitate its rebuilding).

William Henry Harrison. At least his administration didn't screw anything up :p

...I'm still shocked that so many people give JFK and Bill Clinton credit above Washington and Lincoln. Certainly, they were good presidents...

I'm sorry - I must be missing something. Why is JFK certainly so good? Have you ever seen his inauguration speech?

Hey, but he got us OUT of the war in the end. Which is more than you can say for any other president during that bloody fiasco. As for disgracing the office... I really could care less if an office feels disgraced. There are more important things to consider. ;)

You can indeed give him credit for America's eventual withdrawl from Vietnam, though only after the conflict hit its bloodiest during his tenure of office.

It's a little disturbing that you can disregard his disgracing the office of the presidency. Tens of millions of American citizens seemed to think it pretty important at the time, (and still do, if the Clinton impeachment is any indication), that they be able to know that "their president is not a crook." Well, Santa Barbara, that man was a crook, whatever else he had going for him.

If you don't think the integrity of the office of the presidency matters, I wonder what respect you can have for the Constitution of the United States.

I have to give Woodrow Wilson a nod. He was the only world leader who worked for peace after WWI.

I think history would've unfolded differently if the world had listened to him and his 14 Point Plan. There would be no economic depression in Germany, a more stable democracy, and less bitterness. Thus preventing psychotics like Hitler from gaining hold.

Seconded.

The Treaty of Versailles practically went against everything he wanted, and look what happened. I say the French started WWII in 1919, the year the treaty was made.

in my view it would be...

TOP 5
5: William Henry Harrison (didn't do any damage)
4: William Jefferson Clinton (anti gun law and balanced budget)
3: George Washington (defeated the UK)
2: John Fitzgerald Kennedy (averted nuclear war)
1: Franklin D. Roosevelt (new deal and WW2)

Did anyone like President Gore?

A 13 year old's list:
FDR
JFK
Lincoln
Eisenhower
Washington

I'm sorry - I must be missing something. Why is JFK certainly so good? Have you ever seen his inauguration speech?

If nothing else, it's worth giving him credit for the aversion of nuclear war during the Cuban Missile Crisis. In addition, the civil rights legislation of the Johnson administration had much of its origins in Kennedy's, though he didn't live long enough to implement much of it.

I don't know that it warrants putting him in the top 5, but he's certainly not a failure.

Can anyone remember what Coolidge did? Not too darned much, that's right. Probably the best President of the twentieth century for that reason and maybe best all time. He refused to let the Fed get involved in day-to-day affairs and presided over the enormous economic boom of the early twenties.

Washington-Revolutionary war, anybody?
Abe Lincoln-Brilliant guy who kept the nation in one piece(literally) during the civil war, which was the war with the most US cassualties.
FDR-New deal. WWII. Sure, he wanted to enter WWII sooner, but he was planning on Hitler to attack us first. He got intelligence that told him that Japan would attack us. The only question was "where"? Pearl Harbor was a devestating defeat for the US because of the low amount of oil they had available there, making patrols pointless. It was also do to the leadership there. What could be said about a man who helped turn the tide of the bloddiest war in history in the favor of democracy? He only ran for a third term because the democrats pleaded him to run again. He promised to keep us out of war, which he broke because we were attacked. Truly one of the greatest world leaders in history.

Didn't Coolidge bulldoze a lot of vets in Cardboard City? I'm not sure, but I'd thought he did something like that.

The civil rights legislation 'had roots' in Kennedy's administration. That - as you admit - isn't enough, to say nothing of the fact that however much rhetoric he spouted (once more, the inauguration speech), he didn't do anything about it. (That was a bad sentence). And Vietnam had more than 'roots' in Kennedy's administration. Being generally nice doesn't warrant inclusion alongside the names of men who strove for genuine social progress.

FDR was our worst President of all time. Read, for example:


Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor by Robert B. Stinnett

The New Dealer's War by Thomas Fleming

Infamy: Pearl Harbor and Its Aftermath by John Toland

And I Was There by Rear Admiral Edward T. Layton

A Man Called Intrepid by William Stevenson

The Final Secret of Pearl Harbor by Rear Admiral Robert O. Theobald

Perpetual War For Perpetual Peace by Harry Elmer Barnes

Back Door to War, The Roosevelt Foreign Policy, 1933-1941 by Charles Callan Tansill

Wall Street and Franklin D. Roosevelt by Antony Sutton

"Hearings, House of Representatives, Select Committee to Investigate Certain Statements of Dr. William Wirt," 73rd Congress, 2nd Session, April 10 and 17, 1934

FDR's Folly by Jim Powell

The Roosevelt Myth by John T. Flynn

Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development, 1930 to 1945 by Antony Sutton

Roosevelt and Stalin: The Failed Courtship by Robert A. Nisbet

Operation Keelhaul; The Story of Forced Repatriation from 1944 to the Present by Julius Epstein

I Saw Poland Betrayed by Arthur Bliss Lane

America's Great Depression by Murray N. Rothbard

Ally Betrayed by David Martin


So much for FDR being our "best" President.

Well, I'm related to Andrew Jackson, but he tried to kill my dad's side of the family so... Yeah, there's a problem there.


My favorite is a tie. I think Gerald Ford and Thomas Jefferson were the two best presidents.

Ford, because he was a moderate Republican, which you just don't see anymore. He choose to get behind a Income Tax rebate, that helped us out of the '75 recession, he survived two assassination attempts (must have been really lucky), he chose my favorite politician to be a Vice President. Unlike a certain present Republican president, he actually worked well with Democrats, even when the Democrats had the majority! Sure, he wasn't perfect, but he did good.


Thomas Jefferson is an obvious choice. The man who gave us the Louisiana Purchase (though I can just see some democrats thinking now it would have been better if those areas weren't purchased), he was quite iffy about slavery and in fact with even his own slaves. He even tried to make slavery illegal in VA in 1778. He had very good ideas, and in fact it was his and James Madison's Diest ideas that are part of the reason for seperation of Church and State. The church hated Jefferson. He wrote The Declaration of Independence, which Americans should honor, and he is the father of the present day Democratic Party. He is also partly the father of the present day Libertarian Party.

There ya go. My 2 choices for 1st place.

I'm sorry - I must be missing something. Why is JFK certainly so good? Have you ever seen his inauguration speech?

JFK was one of the foulest traitors ever to disgrace America. He wanted to hand over our entire military to the United Nations. Read Freedom From War: The United States Program for General and Complete Disarmament in a Peaceful World, Department of State Publication 7277 (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1961), and A World Effectively Controlled by the United Nations by Lincoln P. Bloomfield (Washington, DC: Institute for Defense Analyses, 1962).

I new I could rely on Roach-Busters to supply a list of dozens of books no one here but himself has read or will read in order to debunk the JFK/FDR lovefest :p

The best
Theodore Roosevelt
Woodrow Wilson
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Read it and weep, Roach-Busters!

These presidents stood up to internal tyranny in the form of abusive corporations, and they stood against tyranny in the form of fascism and other evil. The way neocons should be.

FDR was a failed socialist president who delayed the actual recovery with his anti-business zelaotry, kept useful information from his admirals so that Pearl Harbor was a sneack attack (hence treason), and let us be attacked by Japan so we could declare war on Germany. He broke every single one of his campaign promises and censored out anyone who disagreed with him.
Failed? He used World War 2 to get out of the depression, liberate hundreds of millions of people from fascism and win WW2.

anti-business?
I'm the best friend profit ever had.
FDR calmed down the rising socialist forces in America by promising to implement their agenda. Of course, he did not quite do this. ;)

Treason? Yes, he practically provoked Japan into attacking, but without it, the short-sighted conservative bureaucrats would never have had the guts to fight against Japanese imperialism and Nazism. It was necessary.

His worst aspects IMO, were the internment camps for Japanese-Americans and his refusal to let all the European Jews into America during the late 1930s.

It's a little disturbing that you can disregard his disgracing the office of the presidency. Tens of millions of American citizens seemed to think it pretty important at the time, (and still do, if the Clinton impeachment is any indication), that they be able to know that "their president is not a crook." Well, Santa Barbara, that man was a crook, whatever else he had going for him.

Show me a President who isn't a crook, and I'll show you a crook who just hasn't been caught in the act yet.

If you don't think the integrity of the office of the presidency matters, I wonder what respect you can have for the Constitution of the United States.

You're concerned with abstracts... an office that is disgraced, a piece of paper which gets (or not) my respect. Really, there are more important things, and frankly plenty of US Presidents themselves show frightening lack of 'respect' for the Constitution. How about this, how much respect does the Constitution have for me? None at all, because it's an inanimate object! I reserve my respect for those who earn it, and while I'm not anti-Constitutional, inanimate objects rarely earn my respect no matter how sacred others consider them.

Well if you feel that way why dont you go to a new country. I agree with FDR.

Thank you for giving us a great example of what's wrong with America today: if you don't agree with us, leave. :rolleyes:

Nixon! Invaded Cambodia, thereby significantly escalating the war in Vietnam. Watergate scandal! Discgraced the office of the presidency!

He did go to China, though, and I'd give him points for detente.
Don't forget the Clean Air Laws, and the creation of the EPA! Nixon was good in many ways, though I wouldn't put him among the best.

World War II did not get us out of the Depression. Free-market policies implemented after the war did. Contrary to popular belief, wars are not good for economies. As Ludwig von Mises once said, "War prosperity is like the prosperity an earthquake or plague brings."

Lyndon B. Johnson certainly could have been the greatest President. I'm inclined to agree about FDR's unconstitutionalism (a real word?) - although perhaps not that he was a 'socialist'. So my hilarious and constructive vote probably has to go for Bartlett.

LBJ?!?!

I feel very, very ill.

Don't forget the Clean Air Laws, and the creation of the EPA! Nixon was good in many ways, though I wouldn't put him among the best.

I hear that the only congressman that liked Nixon was Ford. But thank goodness Ford became a better president.

Can anyone remember what Coolidge did? Not too darned much, that's right. Probably the best President of the twentieth century for that reason and maybe best all time. He refused to let the Fed get involved in day-to-day affairs and presided over the enormous economic boom of the early twenties.

Coolidge was the only good President of the 20th century. All the others were socialists, communists, neocons, or crooks.

Coolidge was the only good President of the 20th century. All the others were socialists, communists, neocons, or crooks.

Even Ford? (Yeah, I know. I'm obsessed.)

Don't forget the Clean Air Laws, and the creation of the EPA! Nixon was good in many ways, though I wouldn't put him among the best.

He also abandoned South Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, subjecting them to mass genocide and totalitarian rule. His recognition of China set the stage for U.S. trade with that country, which brought it out of the Stone Age and made it a major threat to the Free World. Moreover, he appointed a Soviet agent to be his Special Assistant for National Security Affairs (and later, Secretary of State). He did everything he could to advance the Soviet cause, as exemplified in SALT I. Plus, he was a socialist.

We are all Keynesians now.

Even Ford? (Yeah, I know. I'm obsessed.)

Nah, he was just a loser. (And a klutz. :D)

in my view it would be...

TOP 5
5: William Henry Harrison (didn't do any damage)
4: William Jefferson Clinton (anti gun law and balanced budget)
3: George Washington (defeated the UK)
2: John Fitzgerald Kennedy (averted nuclear war)
1: Franklin D. Roosevelt (new deal and WW2)

Clinton's anti-gun legislation was so effective that when it disappeared recently, there was no effect whatsoever on crime. Just like how when it was enacted, it had no effect on crime.

I can see the rest, but there are lots of better ones than Harrison. Hayes, Lincoln, Reagan and Jefferson, just to start with.

Nah, he was just a loser. (And a klutz. :D)

Yeah, but not as much as Dan Quayle was. (Thank Christ)

Yeah, but not as much as Dan Quayle was. (Thank Christ)

Dan Quayle was just a dummy.

He did everything he could to advance the Soviet cause, as exemplified in SALT I. Plus, he was a socialist.
Jesus H. Christ, RB, not everyone who is not an ultra-right wing minarchist conservative is a socialist!

Jesus H. Christ, RB, not everyone who is not an ultra-right wing minarchist conservative is a socialist!

Seconded.

Jesus H. Christ, RB, not everyone who is not an ultra-right wing minarchist conservative is a socialist!

Did you read the quote I posted?

I think FDR was one of the best.

You know what president everyone always forgets? Polk!
I've actually mentioned him to fellow Americans and received blank stares, like they don't even know who he is.

FDR, with all his faults, was the best. Personally I liked Wilson, but he failed as a politician... acting uberpartisan all the time didn't get anyone anywhere. Truman wasn't bad: he set up a working UN (yeah, it actually worked back then) and Lincoln managed to clean up Buchanan's mistakes. Jefferson and Washington did some good stuff... Taft was quite good for a republican.

As for people who didn't do damage, James Garfield and W.H. Harrison would make that list.

As you probably guessed, I'm way left, BUT neither Clinton nor JFK would ever make this list. Clinton did the world a great disservice by IGNORING RWANDA, and JFK adopted an aggressive policy that only served to aggravate the Soviets. Yes, the quarantine was aggressive. To sum up, we have had some horrible presidents over here: Monroe, A. Jackson, McKinley, T. Roosevelt, Harding, Hoover, LBJ, Ford, Reagan, and the current Bush would make my list of worsts.

Teddy Roosevelt, easy. The guy overcame extreme personal hardship to rise to greatness, personally led troops into battle (like Washington in earlier days), hated the Politcal Machines, was a conservationist (as opposed to fanatical environmentalist), and seemed to be a truly decent guy.

If he'd won his independent bid for President, maybe we would actually have some decent choices in our candidates. I mean, come on...George Bush or John Kerry? Is that really the best the two parties could do?

Clinton's economic success is much more attributable to Allen Greenspan's savvy, as well as the Republican Congress forcing him to accept the Balanced Budget initiatives, which he never would have done on his own. What happened to the Balanced Budget, anyway? Oh that's right, the Republicans nuked the best thing they did in the last decade or so. Clinton ran on his 5% Unemployment Rate as a sign of his great economic success in his reelection campaign. Then the Democrats criticized George Bush for his 5% Unemployment Rate in his reelection bid. Man, I love American Politics.

And I seriously can't believe someone put LBJ up there. Maybe we should also nominate Ulysses S. Grant, another completely ineffectual & corrupt President. Sheesh.

He also abandoned South Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, subjecting them to mass genocide and totalitarian rule. His recognition of China set the stage for U.S. trade with that country, which brought it out of the Stone Age and made it a major threat to the Free World. Moreover, he appointed a Soviet agent to be his Special Assistant for National Security Affairs (and later, Secretary of State). He did everything he could to advance the Soviet cause, as exemplified in SALT I. Plus, he was a socialist.

Earlier, I thought you were being serious. Right. China has a population of over 1 billion, vast resources that the US can't begin to compete with and, rather unsurprisingly, has been at the forefront of technology and innovation since before Europeans even discovered fire. And yet you're saying it was Nixon's visit that 'dragged them out of the Stone Age'? Stop insulting people's intelligence by assuming that they'll rise up to meet you everytime you accuse someone else of being a socialist (as, admittedly, I've just done...)

And I agree that Nixon was far from being terrible. But remember that he was Special Prosecutor at the McCarthy trials.

ROFLMAO, JFK, an aggressive policy? He had absolutely no balls when it came to foreign policy. He cancelled air support for the Bay of Pigs invasion, ensuring it would be a fiasco. He did nothing when the Berlin Wall was being built. He let the Soviets bully him during the Cuban Missile Crisis, even though our nukes outnumbered them 8 to 1 at that time (although, thanks to his communist Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, by the end of the decade we were lagging behind the Soviets), and he forced pro-Western, anticommunist governments such as the ones in Katanga and Laos to accept 'coalition' governments with communists.

Earlier, I thought you were being serious. Right. China has a population of over 1 billion, vast resources that the US can't begin to compete with and, rather unsurprisingly, has been at the forefront of technology and innovation since before Europeans even discovered fire. And yet you're saying it was Nixon's visit that 'dragged them out of the Stone Age'?

Ever heard of the Great Leap Forward? The massive famines that killed millions of people?

Plus, he was a socialist.

Yeah well, the US is basically socialist with pretensions of freedom.

Franklin D. Roosevelt, and Thomas Jefferson. I'd suppose Lioncoln did a good job, too, but Roosevelt and Jefferson before him.

Lyndon B. Johnson certainly could have been the greatest President. I'm inclined to agree about FDR's unconstitutionalism (a real word?) - although perhaps not that he was a 'socialist'. So my hilarious and constructive vote probably has to go for Bartlett.
Yeah. LBJ was awesome. Just read what came out of his mouth right after he signed the Civil Rights Act into law:"This will have them n*****s voting Democrat for the next 100 years." It hasn't been 100 years, but droves of historically clueless African-Americans are still voting Democrat.

Ever heard of the Great Leap Forward? The massive famines that killed millions of people?

Yes. Current thinking is that the deliberate manipulation and exacerbation of the latter by the Party was in fact controlled by Mao. So yes, of course, China has had a pretty checquered past, and at one point was pretty much Britain's bitch, after the Opium Wars. But it just seems so arrogant and US-centric (more made up words) to suggest that China was wholly dependent on Reagan's support to get it back to its feet, when that flies in the face of all economic reason.

Yeah well, the US is basically socialist with pretensions of freedom.
Bingo!

And elitest a-holes on both sides of the aisle have made it that way.

I think those who're dead are the best ones...

And I think Washington is vastly overrated. He was pretty incompetent on the field and without the French he'd have ended in the Tower of London and hanged as a traitor.

Truman... pffff... killed thousands of innocent civilians to get his point across to the Soviets. In the end it didn't matter anything and brought us all close to extinction by our own hands.

JFK... his two most outstanding things were a) the Cuba thing, b) getting shot spraying his brain all over his wife... Oh and... "Ich bin ein Berliner" oh please...

Lincoln... definitely... "That on the first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free..." enough said. Agreed, he didn't move very democratic, but then again, we all know that the "freedom" the Allies fought for in WW2 was won with the help of one of the worst dictatorships ever.

China has a population of over 1 billion, vast resources that the US can't begin to compete with and, rather unsurprisingly, has been at the forefront of technology and innovation since before Europeans even discovered fire.
That was true until the Middle Kingdom died and was replaced with backwards, regressive and oppressive Communists. Their policies from Mao until now have almost turned them into a third-world nation. They haven't innovated anything in decades and buy most of their advanced technology from other countries.

That was true until the Middle Kingdom died and was replaced with backwards, regressive and oppressive Communists. Their policies from Mao until now have almost turned them into a third-world nation. They haven't innovated anything in decades and buy most of their advanced technology from other countries.

...or, more often, steal.

Don't forget, they also spend a lot of time complaining about Japan never apologizing for the War.

I still think Andrew Jackson's got the best character. Wasn't he the one who commited genocide against the Native population?

Personally, I don't really know who I would consider the "best" president, although Teddy Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan would be in my top 5. Eisenhower had his good points and bad points, as did JFK. Lincoln was good but vastly overrated. Same with Washington. Nixon was a putz. LBJ was a racist sack of shit.

I need to start a thread for "worst president".

I need to start a thread for "worst president".

Yes, please do. :p

I'm gonna throw Calvin Coolidge out there as one of the greatest (certainly most underrated) presidents. People say he did nothing; well, that's exactly what conservatives are all about. Coolidge himself said it best: "It is much more important to kill bad bills than pass good ones." All in all, probably the 2nd-last great conservative president -- Reagan being the last, obviously.

Damn, I see Myrmidonisia beat me to the punch. Good call!

I need to start a thread for "worst president".

Or possibly "most mediocre".

Or possibly "most mediocre".

Heh, I nominate William Henry Harrison. Only lived long enough to keep one of his campaign promises -- that he wouldn't run for a second term. :D

Yeah well, the US is basically socialist with pretensions of freedom.

No, Belgium and Sweden are socialist with your so-called "pretensions of freedom." The United States worships capitalism to a greater extent than most countries. Even its social welfare programs (those that aren't in the process of being dismantled by the current presidential administration) are far less extreme than many other first-world countries'.

As to your earlier response to my critique of Richard Nixon, you still haven't really given a case for him as the best US president. You gave some fair responses to my arguments, to be sure. Still, saying that Nixon's infractions at Watergate are inconsequential because all politicians act similarly or because the integrity of the presidency isn't important doesn't seem sufficient to set him up as the United States' greatest president.

No, Belgium and Sweden are socialist with your so-called "pretensions of freedom." The United States worships capitalism to a greater extent than most countries.

We're an ugly mix of capitalism and socialism.

Yes, please do. :p
Done. :D

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=422711

Apologising gives me headaches, so I don't plan on doing that. Nor can I either be sure of the accuracy of Johnson's words that were quoted earlier. But I am prepared to admit that having checked it out a little bit more, he doesn't actually seem quite as rosy as I'd always assumed. In Britain, it's terribly trendy (well, within reason) to follow the Alastair Cook view. But I appreciate that that's not really fair basis for an appraisal. So, I humbly withdraw support for LBJ (although I still maintain that even if he signed it for racist reasons, at least he still signed the thing, and might suggest that people don't still vote Democrat solely on account of that). But he has to be far from the worst.

What I've really been surprised at is the number of people who assume that Washington's only achievement was the fighting of the Revolutionary War. True, he was only a fair battlefield commander, but this is, if anything, the least of his achievements in the shaping of the United States.

More important, perhaps, was his nearly single-handed aversion of a military coup in 1782-83. Has anyone ever heard of the Newburgh Conspiracy?

More important still was his influence in the shaping of the character of the presidency.

It's easy to measure and judge him solely on the merits of his contributions as a general. These were, in fact, his least significant achievements to the founding and shaping of the US.

No, Belgium and Sweden are socialist with your so-called "pretensions of freedom." The United States worships capitalism to a greater extent than most countries. Even its social welfare programs (those that aren't in the process of being dismantled by the current presidential administration) are far less extreme than many other first-world countries'.

Bah, so it's not as socialist as other socialist nations, so what? I don't want to get into a transatlantic dickwaving fight about who's the bigger socialist. And I'm not even touching your comment on "worshipping" capitalism when there are so many american anti-capitalists right here on this forum.

As to your earlier response to my critique of Richard Nixon, you still haven't really given a case for him as the best US president. You gave some fair responses to my arguments, to be sure. Still, saying that Nixon's infractions at Watergate are inconsequential because all politicians act similarly or because the integrity of the presidency isn't important doesn't seem sufficient to set him up as the United States' greatest president.

Well, deciding who is "the best" is entirely subjective anyway. I've seen no convincing arguments for anyone else, because they don't convince me, because I do not agree with their choice! So I'll think he's the best, you think someone else is, and that's that.

FDR? please. Just look at how he treated Henry Ford during the 30s.
Prolonging the worst depression the country has ever seen for ten years isnt my idea of the best.
look up any of his "fireside" speeches. He called business owners "economic royalists," and publicly slandered them.

Jim Powell says it well...

"The New Deal was controversial then, and still is, because it failed to resolve the most important problem of the era: chronic unemployment, which averaged 17 percent throughout the New Deal period."
"How can that be? Consider just a few of FDR's policies. The New Deal tripled federal taxes between 1933 and 1940 — excise taxes, personal income taxes, inheritance taxes, corporate income taxes, dividend taxes, and excess profits taxes all went up — and FDR introduced an undistributed profits tax. A number of New Deal laws, including some 700 industrial cartel codes, made it more expensive for employers to hire people, and this fed unemployment.

Frequent changes in the tax laws, plus FDR's anti-business rhetoric ("economic royalists"), discouraged people from making investments essential for growth and job creation. New Deal securities laws made it harder for employers to raise capital. FDR issued antitrust lawsuits against some 150 employers and companies, making it harder for them to focus on business. He also signed a law ordering the breakup of America's strongest banks with the lowest failure rates. New Deal farm policies destroyed food — 10 million acres of crops and 6 million farm animals — thereby wiping out farm jobs and forcing food prices above market levels for 100 million American consumers. (FDR's Folly spells out much more in detail.)

Robert Bartley, who edited the Wall Street Journal for three decades, called for a fresh debate about the New Deal. Newspaper publisher Conrad Black, author of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Champion of Freedom, responded by claiming that if "workfare" recipients were included among the "employed," then New Deal unemployment rates were lower than the U.S. Department of Labor has reported for decades. Those tempted to agree with Black might listen to jazz great Louis Armstrong's 1940 tune "The WPA," referring to FDR's biggest "workfare" program, the Works Progress Administration. Among the memorable lines: "Sleep while you work, rest while you play, lean on your shovel to pass the time away, at the WPA."

There's a fascinating split between economists and political historians about the New Deal. The idea that FDR cured high unemployment, wrote Thomas Sowell in a recent column, "was never pervasive among economists, and even J.M. Keynes — a liberal icon — criticized some of FDR's policies as hindering recovery from the depression."
"

as to the topic question:

1: Reagan
2: Washington
3: Jefferson
4: Jackson

Rutherford B. Hayes. I know nothing about him, so that must mean he's above controversy.

FDR? please. Just look at how he treated Henry Ford during the 30s.
Prolonging the worst depression the country has ever seen for ten years isnt my idea of the best.
look up any of his "fireside" speeches. He called business owners "economic royalists," and publicly slandered them.

Jim Powell says it well...

"The New Deal was controversial then, and still is, because it failed to resolve the most important problem of the era: chronic unemployment, which averaged 17 percent throughout the New Deal period."
"How can that be? Consider just a few of FDR's policies. The New Deal tripled federal taxes between 1933 and 1940 — excise taxes, personal income taxes, inheritance taxes, corporate income taxes, dividend taxes, and excess profits taxes all went up — and FDR introduced an undistributed profits tax. A number of New Deal laws, including some 700 industrial cartel codes, made it more expensive for employers to hire people, and this fed unemployment.

Frequent changes in the tax laws, plus FDR's anti-business rhetoric ("economic royalists"), discouraged people from making investments essential for growth and job creation. New Deal securities laws made it harder for employers to raise capital. FDR issued antitrust lawsuits against some 150 employers and companies, making it harder for them to focus on business. He also signed a law ordering the breakup of America's strongest banks with the lowest failure rates. New Deal farm policies destroyed food — 10 million acres of crops and 6 million farm animals — thereby wiping out farm jobs and forcing food prices above market levels for 100 million American consumers. (FDR's Folly spells out much more in detail.)

Robert Bartley, who edited the Wall Street Journal for three decades, called for a fresh debate about the New Deal. Newspaper publisher Conrad Black, author of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Champion of Freedom, responded by claiming that if "workfare" recipients were included among the "employed," then New Deal unemployment rates were lower than the U.S. Department of Labor has reported for decades. Those tempted to agree with Black might listen to jazz great Louis Armstrong's 1940 tune "The WPA," referring to FDR's biggest "workfare" program, the Works Progress Administration. Among the memorable lines: "Sleep while you work, rest while you play, lean on your shovel to pass the time away, at the WPA."

There's a fascinating split between economists and political historians about the New Deal. The idea that FDR cured high unemployment, wrote Thomas Sowell in a recent column, "was never pervasive among economists, and even J.M. Keynes — a liberal icon — criticized some of FDR's policies as hindering recovery from the depression."
"

Couldn't have said it better myself.

William Henry Harrison. That guy didn't make a single mistake during his entire term.

"The New Deal was controversial then, and still is, because it failed to resolve the most important problem of the era: chronic unemployment, which averaged 17 percent throughout the New Deal period."
The Great depression was not one long, constant thing. It spiked early on, and by 1933 unemployment was over 25%. That was when FDR was elected. For the next 6 years things got steadily better. Saying it was a steady drop in unemployment, taking you figure of 17% average, that means that by 1939 (considered the end, although 1941 was when the final traces were wiped away) he had the unemployment down to 9%. It also means he dropped 2.66% off the unemployment figure every year.

Not too shabby.

William Henry Harrison. That guy didn't make a single mistake during his entire term.


The Great depression was not one long, constant thing. It spiked early on, and by 1933 unemployment was over 25%. That was when FDR was elected. For the next 6 years things got steadily better. Saying it was a steady drop in unemployment, taking you figure of 17% average, that means that by 1939 (considered the end, although 1941 was when the final traces were wiped away) he had the unemployment down to 9%. It also means he dropped 2.66% off the unemployment figure every year.

Not too shabby.

You can't base this sort of appraisal solely on unemployment rates. You know, there was another national leader around the same time who really slashed unemployment - got it down from over 6 million to under 1 million. He wasn't all good though...

You can't base this sort of appraisal solely on unemployment rates. You know, there was another national leader around the same time who really slashed unemployment - got it down from over 6 million to under 1 million. He wasn't all good though...

Lemme guess: Adolf Shitler?

Rutherford B. Hayes. I know nothing about him, so that must mean he's above controversy.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8979830&postcount=7


For more on President Hayes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutherford_B_Hayes

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8979830&postcount=7


For more on President Hayes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutherford_B_Hayes

Wikipedia's got to be one of the worst sites ever.

Wikipedia's got to be one of the worst sites ever.

It's only as good as what people post on it. He said he didn't know anything about Hayes. I just shot him a quick "10,000 foot view" link.

Rutherford B. Hayes was actually a pretty good president. During reconstruction/post-reconstruction he worked really hard getting African-Americans rights, especially in the South.

Another fact his wife made him ban liquor in the White House..she got the famous nickname "lemonade lucy" for it..

Washington
Lincoln
TR
FDR
Monroe (Monroe Doctrine anyone? How long did the US use that for?)
Jackson

Monroe Doctrine anyone?
HORRIBLE FP MISTAKE THAT RESULTED IN AN IRREPRESSIBLE AND STILL UNENDED ERA OF AMERICAN IMPERIALISM. IMPERIALISM IS BAD.

HORRIBLE FP MISTAKE THAT RESULTED IN AN IRREPRESSIBLE AND STILL UNENDED ERA OF AMERICAN IMPERIALISM. IMPERIALISM IS BAD.
Caps Lock is NOT your friend. :mad:

FDR was our worst President of all time. Read, for example:


Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor by Robert B. Stinnett

The New Dealer's War by Thomas Fleming

Infamy: Pearl Harbor and Its Aftermath by John Toland

And I Was There by Rear Admiral Edward T. Layton

A Man Called Intrepid by William Stevenson

The Final Secret of Pearl Harbor by Rear Admiral Robert O. Theobald

Perpetual War For Perpetual Peace by Harry Elmer Barnes

Back Door to War, The Roosevelt Foreign Policy, 1933-1941 by Charles Callan Tansill

Wall Street and Franklin D. Roosevelt by Antony Sutton

"Hearings, House of Representatives, Select Committee to Investigate Certain Statements of Dr. William Wirt," 73rd Congress, 2nd Session, April 10 and 17, 1934

FDR's Folly by Jim Powell

The Roosevelt Myth by John T. Flynn

Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development, 1930 to 1945 by Antony Sutton

Roosevelt and Stalin: The Failed Courtship by Robert A. Nisbet

Operation Keelhaul; The Story of Forced Repatriation from 1944 to the Present by Julius Epstein

I Saw Poland Betrayed by Arthur Bliss Lane

America's Great Depression by Murray N. Rothbard

Ally Betrayed by David Martin


So much for FDR being our "best" President.

You and I should have a get-together someday, to get away from these brainwashed lefties.

Joy! Another right-winger on the forum! :D

(Ok, that aside.)

I don't get why everyone allows themselves to be brainwashed by the liberal media. FDR was a complete failure. End of story.

My top 10 presidents:

Washington
FDR
Lincoln
Truman
Teddy Roosevelt
Madison
Jefferson
Esienhower
Kennedy
Tie for 10th:
William Howard Taft and Grover Cleveland