NationStates Jolt Archive


What is wrong with jewish people?

Dakini
30-05-2005, 05:17
What is it that certain hate groups, conspiracy theorists see that the rest of us don't here?

I mean, I've never met a jewish person who is terribly rude or mean or anything, at least no more so than anybody else and if I do meet such a person, I chalk it up to them being an asshole, rather than because they're jewish.

Really, the only jewish person I know who annoys me somewhat is the guy who always brings it up, but he does the same with everything. It sucks to play texas hold 'em with this guy too.... anyways. What's the deal?
Glinde Nessroe
30-05-2005, 05:23
What is it that certain hate groups, conspiracy theorists see that the rest of us don't here?

I mean, I've never met a jewish person who is terribly rude or mean or anything, at least no more so than anybody else and if I do meet such a person, I chalk it up to them being an asshole, rather than because they're jewish.

Really, the only jewish person I know who annoys me somewhat is the guy who always brings it up, but he does the same with everything. It sucks to play texas hold 'em with this guy too.... anyways. What's the deal?

Everybody gotta hate something! I hate squash.
Verghastinsel
30-05-2005, 05:26
Some people want attention, and figure that their religion/race is a good way of getting it. Y'know, Attention Deficit whatever. I know some people whose parents were Jewish, but they're not, and they just don't even consider it a factor in their lives. I don't know any strict Jews, but I imagine that going up to them and calling them a filthy bastard yid will get the same reaction as you'd get from insulting anyone else ("Yeah, fuck you too").
As with conspiracy theorists...I guess if you've seen enough movies, documentaries, read the right/wrong books, then you might begin to notice things. Most of the time, however, I reckon they just go looking for trouble.
Deleuze
30-05-2005, 05:31
We're the chosen people, duh.

We're so beautiful that everyone hates us.
Patra Caesar
30-05-2005, 05:32
Jewish people are percieved as being secrative, historically they had no home land so if you oppressed them they had no government to complain about it. Many also think of the Jews as Christ Killers.
Alien Born
30-05-2005, 05:46
You take a group of people, who claim to be the chosen ones of God, who say that you can not join them as you have to be born Jewish. Add to this the history of the Jewish peoples as traders and bankers rather than as laboutrers or soldiers etc.

You have an easy target that is easy to blame.

My wife has a jewish friend whose father, being Jewish, can not understand why anyone would not hate the Jews given their, as he puts it, intolerable smugness.

But as individual people, they are like any other sub set of humanity, good ones and bad ones. But mostly OK ones.
Cafetopia
30-05-2005, 05:48
Jewish people taste really bad.
Individualnost
30-05-2005, 05:54
You take a group of people, who claim to be the chosen ones of God, who say that you can not join them as you have to be born Jewish. Add to this the history of the Jewish peoples as traders and bankers rather than as laboutrers or soldiers etc.

You have an easy target that is easy to blame.

Exactly. The obvious problem here is fear. The classic European anti Semitism that STILL prevails from the Middle Ages to present day (I really do have one huge problem with Europe, and that is it's blatant and flagrant anti-Semitism) is easily traced back to the wealth of Jews and their influential positions in historical society. Plenty of Jews were and are poor, plenty were/are unknown, but the few who were not so were seen as the stereotype for Jews. Add to this good ol' Medieval Catholic fundamentalism and you have an outright hatred for Jews. Remember the Jews' Exchequer? Jews were taxed in England for being Jews. Simple. Non Jews feared the wealth and power that a few Jews had and most of all feared them using it to help the poor Jews better themselves and raise themselves out of oppression by the Europeans. Nothing at all is wrong with Jews, but there is plenty wrong with those who hate or fear them. Would you hate or fear Native Americans? Of course not. Another harmless, misunderstood (well, at time of relocations they were) people who were persecuted unfairly.
Zotona
30-05-2005, 05:56
Oh, Dakini, quite often it is a social stereotype which causes the problem for Jewish people.

One of my best friends in K5+1st grade was a little sweet girl who happened to be Jewish. She was a social outcast because apparently, in Alabama, even Kindergartners know what "Jewish" means in their little hate-filled Christian world. I was one of the few who decided it was stupid to "not be her friend" because she was "going to hell". She moved away by 2nd or 3rd grade. Good for her.
Ekland
30-05-2005, 06:04
Personally I have nothing against Jews, though one thing I have always found strange is that they are STILL waiting for their savior. :p
Show Choir Realm
30-05-2005, 06:13
My roommate's Jewish and he's kind of a jackass. Most of his friends are, too. But I think that's just because they're immoral and apathetic jerks.

My other roommates and I like to complain about him. :)
America-Canada-Mexico
30-05-2005, 06:23
16 Oct 2003

In an address to the Tenth Islamic Summit Conference, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad declares: "[The Jews] survived 2000 years of pogroms not by hitting back, but by thinking. They invented and successfully promoted Socialism, Communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so they may enjoy equal rights with others. With these they have now gained control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power. We cannot fight them through brawn alone. We must use our brains also. Of late because of their power and their apparent success they have become arrogant. And arrogant people, like angry people will make mistakes, will forget to think. They are already beginning to make mistakes. And they will make more mistakes."

How many logical fallacies can you see in this passage regarding the Jewish people?
Kryozerkia
30-05-2005, 08:01
Uhm...nothing? They have the same problem as the rest of us breathing, living assholes.... :p
The Downmarching Void
30-05-2005, 08:15
I think its fear and jealousy. Personally, I like Jews, I have sevral Jewish friends, they make jokes about my aryan looks and ancestry and and I make jokes about their zionist conspiracy and fattening food, all in good fun.

The idiotic Zionist conspiracy Theories have their basis in a truth that pokes big holes in the crazy theories. For thousands of years, Jews have been persecuted, but through it all, they survived. How? With intelligence and ingenuity, yes. They kept to their own kind and helped eachother out as much as possible. They had to. What is so wrong about helping out your fellow peoples? Congregations at most Christian churches are a network for helping eachother out as much as any community of Jews does. The difference is that all those years of persecution have given Jews something very precious to them:UNITY.

Europeans have tried for millenia to wipe out Jews and their culture, but with no success. Even Hitlers monstrous program of Genocide failed. Thats pretty amazing. My fathers culture was wiped out by the Soviets in only a few short years. Not the Jews. I think some people prone to paranoia and delusions see something sinister behind the Jews continued survival. They're smart and they're tough, thats all. If the wealthy of other cultures gave as much money to charites and the arts as the Jews do, we'd be a lot better off. My career is in the arts, and one of the reasons I like Jews is that wherever they congregate, the Arts community flourishes because of their support. While there are quite a few total bastards with a lot of power in Israel, they aren't bastards because they're Jews, they're just bastards.

The Jews are an easy scapegoat for politicians wishing to distract people from the real problems facing them. People also buy into the BS because they want to feel better than somebody else. Insecure people will buy any line that lets them get a taste of superiority, no matter how false that superiority really is.
Texpunditistan
30-05-2005, 08:18
Jewish people taste really bad.
WOO! T-shirt material! :D
Individualnost
30-05-2005, 08:29
I think its fear and jealousy. Personally, I like Jews, I have sevral Jewish friends, they make jokes about my aryan looks and ancestry and and I make jokes about their zionist conspiracy and fattening food, all in good fun.

The idiotic Zionist conspiracy Theories have their basis in a truth that pokes big holes in the crazy theories. For thousands of years, Jews have been persecuted, but through it all, they survived. How? With intelligence and ingenuity, yes. They kept to their own kind and helped eachother out as much as possible. They had to. What is so wrong about helping out your fellow peoples? Congregations at most Christian churches are a network for helping eachother out as much as any community of Jews does. The difference is that all those years of persecution have given Jews something very precious to them:UNITY.

Europeans have tried for millenia to wipe out Jews and their culture, but with no success. Even Hitlers monstrous program of Genocide failed. Thats pretty amazing. My fathers culture was wiped out by the Soviets in only a few short years. Not the Jews. I think some people prone to paranoia and delusions see something sinister behind the Jews continued survival. They're smart and they're tough, thats all. If the wealthy of other cultures gave as much money to charites and the arts as the Jews do, we'd be a lot better off. My career is in the arts, and one of the reasons I like Jews is that wherever they congregate, the Arts community flourishes because of their support. While there are quite a few total bastards with a lot of power in Israel, they aren't bastards because they're Jews, they're just bastards.

The Jews are an easy scapegoat for politicians wishing to distract people from the real problems facing them. People also buy into the BS because they want to feel better than somebody else. Insecure people will buy any line that lets them get a taste of superiority, no matter how false that superiority really is.
Russophile interested: what was your father's culture?
Chewbaccula
30-05-2005, 08:33
What is it that certain hate groups, conspiracy theorists see that the rest of us don't here?
I mean, I've never met a jewish person who is terribly rude or mean or anything, at least no more so than anybody else and if I do meet such a person, I chalk it up to them being an asshole, rather than because they're jewish.
Really, the only jewish person I know who annoys me somewhat is the guy who always brings it up, but he does the same with everything. It sucks to play texas hold 'em with this guy too.... anyways. What's the deal?

Its not the Jews who are the problem, they are and have been essentially the most decent people in the worlds history. The problem is all the arseholes who know this and hate them for it.
The Downmarching Void
30-05-2005, 08:37
Russophile interested: what was your father's culture?

Danish Pommeranian (they considered them Danes despite 300 years in a German territory, go figure) BTW he has nothing against Russia or Poland for what happened. The Soviets and the Polsih Communist Party on the other hand, are the only group I've seen make him seethe with hatred.
Legless Pirates
30-05-2005, 08:39
The same that is wrong with muslims and christians and <insert religion of choice here>ians
Individualnost
30-05-2005, 08:42
Danish Pommeranian (they considered them Danes despite 300 years in a German territory, go figure) BTW he has nothing against Russia or Poland for what happened. The Soviets and the Polsih Communist Party on the other hand, are the only group I've seen make him seethe with hatred.
You know how many contemporary Polish citizens feel exactly the same way? Excepting of course personal feelings for Danish Pomeranians. That's fascinating to me, though. Danish Pomeranians. No, I didn't know they had kept their Danishicity. (not a word) My sincere and heartfelt condolences, from a history buff who likes nothing more than studying various cultures, to your father, and to any of the other Danish Pomeranian descendants anywhere in the world. It is a thing unfathomable to many just what is lost when a unique culture is wiped out. A crime against humanity in and of itself, without the fact that killing people IS a crime against humanity.
Nimzonia
30-05-2005, 08:44
Add to this the history of the Jewish peoples as traders and bankers rather than as laboutrers or soldiers etc.

In Medieval Europe, Jews were often forbidden from having any other profession, besides those that were considered inferior, such as tax collection and money lending. It's hardly any wonder they then inherited the bad reputation of tax collectors and money lenders in general.
The Philosophes
30-05-2005, 08:50
<snip>who say that you can not join them as you have to be born Jewish.</snip>

it's not impossible. trust me, I'm Jewish, I know. it's just you have to be sure. we don't want fakers!
The Downmarching Void
30-05-2005, 08:55
You know how many contemporary Polish citizens feel exactly the same way? Excepting of course personal feelings for Danish Pomeranians. That's fascinating to me, though. Danish Pomeranians. No, I didn't know they had kept their Danishicity. (not a word) My sincere and heartfelt condolences, from a history buff who likes nothing more than studying various cultures, to your father, and to any of the other Danish Pomeranian descendants anywhere in the world. It is a thing unfathomable to many just what is lost when a unique culture is wiped out. A crime against humanity in and of itself, without the fact that killing people IS a crime against humanity.

I have had (and have) enough Polish friends to know they feel the same way. Thank you for the kind words. Most people don't realize just what it means when a culture ceases to exist. I probably should have said just plain Pommeranian, since Pommerania was effectively wiped out of existence, culturaly. The little sliver still left didn't fare much better under the GDR, and there weren't any Danish communities there to begin with. The Danes came to Pommerania during the 30 years war, and a lot of them stayed afterwards, understandable given the prosperous and fertile nature of the place. They were continued to be considered Danes because of the centuries of bad blood bewteen the two, but were fully accepted by the time my father was born.

It wasn't acheived through killinmg, people were given a choice of leaving or staying. My family was too uppercrust for the Soviets to give them even that choice. There were too few to survive such a complete diaspora, so in effect, the culture ceased to be.

[/HIJACK]
Ravenshrike
30-05-2005, 09:26
My wife has a jewish friend whose father, being Jewish, can not understand why anyone would not hate the Jews given their, as he puts it, intolerable smugness.

So the orthodox version of their religion is elitist. Boo-fucking-hoo. Are people that sad that they can't join in that they must hate and persecute that group of people? I mean really, don't these people have anything better to do with their lives?
Maharlikana
30-05-2005, 09:31
Exactly. The obvious problem here is fear. The classic European anti Semitism that STILL prevails from the Middle Ages to present day (I really do have one huge problem with Europe, and that is it's blatant and flagrant anti-Semitism) is easily traced back to the wealth of Jews and their influential positions in historical society. Plenty of Jews were and are poor, plenty were/are unknown, but the few who were not so were seen as the stereotype for Jews. Add to this good ol' Medieval Catholic fundamentalism and you have an outright hatred for Jews. Remember the Jews' Exchequer? Jews were taxed in England for being Jews. Simple. Non Jews feared the wealth and power that a few Jews had and most of all feared them using it to help the poor Jews better themselves and raise themselves out of oppression by the Europeans. Nothing at all is wrong with Jews, but there is plenty wrong with those who hate or fear them. Would you hate or fear Native Americans? Of course not. Another harmless, misunderstood (well, at time of relocations they were) people who were persecuted unfairly.

During the middle ages I believe there were two reasons for the hatred and as centuries passed and the original reasons were forgotten it just became pretty much a free for all 'it's their fault thing'.

The Jews were scattered after 70AD (the destruction of the temple and the invasion of the Romans - okay I got that backwards) and they went in all directions, a good number settling in Europe. (There's some evidence that a bunch may even have settled in India/Nepal where a culture group shows remarkable similarities to their faith). Anyways, the ones in Europe naturally came into contact with the newly dominant Christian religion. Because of some prohibition on usury (moneylending et al) this 'un-Christian practice' was left to - guess who - the Jews, who did ridiculously - some thought criminally - well at it. Then there was the religious issue - recently revived by The Passion of the Christ - where some die-hard 'Christians' thought that Jews were 'Christ-killers' and deserved to die.

Lots of things - the Crusades (where Jews were slaughtered alongside Muslims), the Inquisition, particularly the Spanish inquistion (to be fair, the Spanish suffered under centuries of Muslim domination) and various pogroms, though the ironic thing is, instead of being satiated, these events seemed to engender more hatred. Apparently the one notable anti-Semitic event that doesn't follow that trend is the Holocaust (then it's an utterly horrific thing - horrific in its cold blooded and ruthlessly determine methodical nature. While the Crusades or Inquisition or pogroms were anti-semitic there was - most of the time - a chance to convert to the dominant faith. Here the people were exterminated like rats).
Maharlikana
30-05-2005, 09:34
Ironically, during the ancient period, the Jewish race was probably as 'racist' (for want of a better term - okay 'discriminatory') as modern people, in that they looked upon themselves as the chosen people and the rest of the world as Gentiles. Still, people could adapt the practices of Judaism if they were willing to adhere to its codes, there was IIRC some way for adaption and purification to happen. One particular Jewish heroine - Ruth - wasn't even born Jewish but Moabite!
Argesia
30-05-2005, 09:44
The Christian prejudice was borrowed in modern times. Even if few were believers (Hitler resembled a pagan, most closely) they made it stick: this is the difficulty of distinguishing Jewishness as either a creed or a nation (race). There is, to my mind, nothing justyfing this kind of generic thinking, be it positive or negative. You cannot expect people who go under the name of (whatever) to behave in this or that way.
The Holy Womble
30-05-2005, 12:19
Ironically, during the ancient period, the Jewish race was probably as 'racist' (for want of a better term - okay 'discriminatory') as modern people, in that they looked upon themselves as the chosen people and the rest of the world as Gentiles.
You know, it has long been known that the people of Sweden define themselves as Swedish, as opposed to all other people who are non-Swedish and therefore considered, by implication, inferior with regards to whatever qualities make someone Swedish. And even though this division of the world between Swedes and non-Swedes is based to a large extent simply on whether someone has been born in Sweden or to Swedish parents, the world has been strangely silent and reticent about this obviously racist criteria for inclusion.

:rolleyes:
Super-power
30-05-2005, 12:31
I can only hope the white supremacist (ahem...that's to say "separatist" :rolleyes: ) posters on this board don't find this topic.
Ianarabia
30-05-2005, 12:47
Travelled South America, met 100's of Jews, only met 3 who were considerate, the rest did as they pleased usually pissing everyone off where ever they were and generally being asses.

Also they were totally obsessed with money...so basically by and large i found them totally detestable...won't stop me meeting others i want to meet 5 that are good.
The Lightning Star
30-05-2005, 12:58
On the topic of Judaism in the Middle Ages and the 1500, 1600's...

Jews weren't persecuted everywhere. In fact, there was one country that was considered the "Paradise of the Jews".

Who can tell me what that country is?(I already know the answer, BTW)
QuentinTarantino
30-05-2005, 13:01
it's not impossible. trust me, I'm Jewish, I know. it's just you have to be sure. we don't want fakers!

What man would think about joining a religon where you have to be circumsized?
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 13:09
It's a few things. Firstly, the "Christ-killer" heritage: the Jews killed God! That's: Killed! God! How on Earth do you get over something like that?! And for the longest time people in the West hadn't worked out it was unjust to punish the sons for the sins of the fathers, largely because God Himself said He would do this in the Bible.

Secondly, after the AD70 diaspora they were omnipresent in Europe, but because of their interbreeding they always remained a minority. Interbreeding kept money earned within families, which went into excellent educations for their children, which got them high-up jobs in the professions and in politics where they weren't prevented from it. And remember, the proletariat is always suspicious of anyone with money and political power - let alone an entire community of them, who keep themselves to themselves by and large.

In countries where they were only allowed to be usurers and the like, well, it speaks for itself why people would be suspicious of usurers.

Thirdly, the "Chosen People" business. Judiasm is a strange religion, because it's a race as well as a religion. A good number of Jews consider it as such, and many outsiders consider it as such. It gets people sussed up when you tell them "We're God's chosen ones, and you can't join us because you weren't born as one of us." It's a form of racism and it causes racism in return - but unlike other racism, in which it is literally impossible to change (without radical surgery and bleachings or colourings or whatever), non-Jews think it should be possible to become Jewish by adopting the customs and practices of Jews, but by and large orthodox Jews don't accept them as really Jewish. Unfortunately, since Reformed Jews don't stand out like the Hassidim (sp?) stand out, it's they and their attitude which gets focused on: and it's they who say you can't convert.

Fourthly, politics. A rich, interbreeding group which perpetuates its own financial success is a wonderful target for conspiracy theories:

It has the money and the connections (because all the rich are connected) to influence politics, which gives ambitious right-wing politicians a good start.
It is "secretive," and participates in a regular basis in ritualistic worship in a language nobody outside the community understands. Very easy to convince ignorant people that it's Satanic, or at the very least not right.
Because of the diaspora they're everywhere, allowing scope for an extremely powerful conspiracy, that's in charge of everything.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's why, in my humble.
Gartref
30-05-2005, 13:10
Jews invented the concept of moralistic monotheistic religion. They have been punished for this ever since.
QuentinTarantino
30-05-2005, 13:34
On the topic of Judaism in the Middle Ages and the 1500, 1600's...

Jews weren't persecuted everywhere. In fact, there was one country that was considered the "Paradise of the Jews".

Who can tell me what that country is?(I already know the answer, BTW)

Germany, right?
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 13:34
Jews invented the concept of moralistic monotheistic religion. They have been punished for this ever since.

By moralistic monotheistic religions? Oh, your logic is impeccable.
Homieville
30-05-2005, 13:36
They are rude and keep all there money to themselves and they own all Newspaper Stations and Some Jews are cheap

not all Jews are like this ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Homieville
30-05-2005, 13:39
nobody get offended it was a question and an answer.

of course not all jews are like that so end of topic for me
Dakini
30-05-2005, 14:05
Jews invented the concept of moralistic monotheistic religion. They have been punished for this ever since.
Actually, the zoroastrians came up with it first and then the jewish people borrowed it.

The zoroastrians are dying off because they allow absolutely no conversions into the religion.
Arpwat
30-05-2005, 14:05
non-Jews think it should be possible to become Jewish by adopting the customs and practices of Jews, but by and large orthodox Jews don't accept them as really Jewish.

This is NOT TRUE! It is indeed possible to convert to Judaism and once one has completed the very difficult and complex process, one is fully Jewish and that is that. I am Jewish, and there are a number of people who are converts in my community (which is very strictly orthodox) and nobody thinks less of them because of it!
The process of converting to Judiaism in the Orthodox tradtion is not easy: in one of the first steps the prospective convert is asked why he/she would want to join a group as disliked as the Jews and is sent home to think about it for a while. If one makes it all the way throught the process (which can take years), then one is welcomed as a fully Jewish person.
Anarchic Conceptions
30-05-2005, 14:08
Germany, right?
Just Prussia I think. Where it was declared "Let every man go to heaven in his own way" (though I cannot remember when this was announced).


Germany, as a nation state, didn't exist till much later.
Dakini
30-05-2005, 14:09
It's a few things. Firstly, the "Christ-killer" heritage: the Jews killed God! That's: Killed! God! How on Earth do you get over something like that?! And for the longest time people in the West hadn't worked out it was unjust to punish the sons for the sins of the fathers, largely because God Himself said He would do this in the Bible.
The romans killed Jesus, if Jesus actually existed in the first place. Hell, the only Jesus executed by the romans was Jesus of Barrabas, if you recall, Barrabas was set free by the jewish mob. It's quite possible that the whole crucifixion and ensuing resurrection were made up. And really, as the time goes on the blame goes from romans to the jews because the romans were starting to adopt the religion and you don't want to be the nation responsable for killing the saviour, so you push it on someone else.
Anarchic Conceptions
30-05-2005, 14:10
Actually, the zoroastrians came up with it first and then the jewish people borrowed it.

The zoroastrians are dying off because they allow absolutely no conversions into the religion.

Aren't the Zoroastrians dualistic not monotheistic?
Swimmingpool
30-05-2005, 14:27
I really do have one huge problem with Europe, and that is it's blatant and flagrant anti-Semitism
Anti-semitism, while worse in Europe than in America (I think), is no longer acceptable in mainstream discourse, especially after the Holocaust.
Neo-Anarchists
30-05-2005, 14:33
I am soooo tempted to make a comment about "Jew-gold", but I don't think people would realize I was joking, and I don't want a forumban.
Refused Party Program
30-05-2005, 14:35
On the topic of Judaism in the Middle Ages and the 1500, 1600's...

Jews weren't persecuted everywhere. In fact, there was one country that was considered the "Paradise of the Jews".

Who can tell me what that country is?(I already know the answer, BTW)

Palestine.

Why are Jews hated by many? They're just too damn beautiful. We're all jealous.
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 14:36
The romans killed Jesus, if Jesus actually existed in the first place. Hell, the only Jesus executed by the romans was Jesus of Barrabas, if you recall, Barrabas was set free by the jewish mob. It's quite possible that the whole crucifixion and ensuing resurrection were made up. And really, as the time goes on the blame goes from romans to the jews because the romans were starting to adopt the religion and you don't want to be the nation responsable for killing the saviour, so you push it on someone else.

A: He existed. There's very little doubt of this in the minds of the overwhelmning majority of historians now, by very very early accounts of Christians.

B: By the Gospel account, and also by Jewish and Roman law, once Pilate had had Jesus scourged his punishment was over. It was illegal for Pilate to declare he had to have him executed, but faced with the potential riot of an enraged mob, Pilate thought it was better for one man to die for the many and declared Jesus should be executed.

C: Yes, of course politics are also involved. I've pointed this out.
Yiddnland
30-05-2005, 14:40
What is it that certain hate groups, conspiracy theorists see that the rest of us don't here?

I mean, I've never met a jewish person who is terribly rude or mean or anything, at least no more so than anybody else and if I do meet such a person, I chalk it up to them being an asshole, rather than because they're jewish.

Really, the only jewish person I know who annoys me somewhat is the guy who always brings it up, but he does the same with everything. It sucks to play texas hold 'em with this guy too.... anyways. What's the deal?

you probably haven't met arab jews. They're mean, ugly and stupid, and should be exterminated. (Mainly because they're stupid).

But we're hated as jews because jews think they're a nation (which is racism and false), because jews took palestinian land even though they had nothing to do with the german extermination camps. (And also because we supposedly killed christ, and even if we didn't, YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT... it's a dogma, period.)
Anarchic Conceptions
30-05-2005, 14:46
The romans killed Jesus, if Jesus actually existed in the first place. Hell, the only Jesus executed by the romans was Jesus of Barrabas, if you recall, Barrabas was set free by the jewish mob. It's quite possible that the whole crucifixion and ensuing resurrection were made up. And really, as the time goes on the blame goes from romans to the jews because the romans were starting to adopt the religion and you don't want to be the nation responsable for killing the saviour, so you push it on someone else.


I think the phrase "May his blood be on us and our children" applies here.

Especially since for the past two millenia people listened to the Bible rather then trying to learn about history.
Hogsweat
30-05-2005, 14:48
They Were The Reason Why Germany Lost Wwi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Holy Womble
30-05-2005, 14:56
you probably haven't met arab jews. They're mean, ugly and stupid, and should be exterminated. (Mainly because they're stupid).

But we're hated as jews because jews think they're a nation (which is racism and false), because jews took palestinian land even though they had nothing to do with the german extermination camps. (And also because we supposedly killed christ, and even if we didn't, YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT... it's a dogma, period.)
Ladies and gentlemen, pay attention: we have a provocateur on our hands who claims to be what he is not.
Mildenior
30-05-2005, 15:23
I'm a jew myself. And different from most of you guys I live in a country where there is a muslim majority, Turkey. Even in Turkey, which is supposed to be the only democratic secular muslim country in the whole world, there are anti-semitic people. and it's a big proportion. when i was 16, a kid pushed me and said "hitler was right to kill you" just because i got on his way accidentally. They just say what they hear from their parents or grandparents without even weighing it.

Most of you here are open minded modern people. I have realized that most of the players here are university students who study pols&econ&history etc.. you re only 1 percent of the world population. out of 70 million turkish people maybe only one million people are liberal and modern like you guys. if they were as protective and open minded as they say they were, we wouldn't witness the synagogue bombings on november 2004 in istanbul and many other suicide bombings around the world.

there isn't a specific answer for WHY? They just do.. not just about jewish hatred. any racist wave is like that. why do greeks hate turks and turks hate greeks? they just do.. (BTW i dont, i got many greek friends).. pakis/indians etc..
Dakini
30-05-2005, 19:02
A: He existed. There's very little doubt of this in the minds of the overwhelmning majority of historians now, by very very early accounts of Christians.

B: By the Gospel account, and also by Jewish and Roman law, once Pilate had had Jesus scourged his punishment was over. It was illegal for Pilate to declare he had to have him executed, but faced with the potential riot of an enraged mob, Pilate thought it was better for one man to die for the many and declared Jesus should be executed.

C: Yes, of course politics are also involved. I've pointed this out.
A: On what evidence? There aren't any outside sources that refer to Jesus.
B: Unlikely. For one thing, as you will note, the romans executed thieves, Jesus is written to have caused a ruckus in a temple, they would have strung him up good.
Santa Barbara
30-05-2005, 19:11
The fact that Israel is basically a fascist state where non-Jews are second-rate citizens, and that Israel receives ungodly sums of US taxpayer dollars to fund it's military (a military which includes WMDs), and that US blind support of Israel for decades has been one of the biggest threats to peace in the Middle East... MIGHT have something to do with it.

But no, if I say all that, I must be an "Anti-Semite," that I'm expounding "conspiracy theories." Ugh. Plus people don't even know what semites are, they use "Anti-Semite" when they mean "anti-Jew," completely ignoring all the non-Jewish Semites (who are OK to hate, as long as they MIGHT be 'terrorists.')
The Bauhas
30-05-2005, 19:13
Jews are hated everywhere.

They have the whole "they killed Jesus!" stigma, plus the stereotype that they're taking over the world.

I'm not a religious person, so the latter stereotype is what influences me the most. Jewish people are -as a group- rich and influential, and I think that is why some people like to say they're planning some "conspiracy."

I'm going to be honest here and admit that I don't like Jewish people as a group. I've thought about this before, wondering why I dislike them so much.
I have to say that I really don't know why.
I try to treat everyone the same -Jewish or not- and ignore my feelings, but sometimes it's just impossible.
Bolsania
30-05-2005, 19:23
They stole our porridge
Robot ninja pirates
30-05-2005, 19:33
there isn't a specific answer for WHY? They just do.. not just about jewish hatred. any racist wave is like that. why do greeks hate turks and turks hate greeks? they just do.. (BTW i dont, i got many greek friends).. pakis/indians etc..
Well that actually dates back to 1392 (?) when the Turks took over Constantinople and renamed it Istanbul.

It's all about the money. To handle money at one point was considered unclean so the only job Jews were really allowed to take, on the grounds of "Well, they're going to hell anyway". They also started loaning money on interest, which although it is standard practice today, in traditional church dogma is a serious sin. So at one point basically everyone was in debt to a Jew.
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 19:38
A: On what evidence? There aren't any outside sources that refer to Jesus.
B: Unlikely. For one thing, as you will note, the romans executed thieves, Jesus is written to have caused a ruckus in a temple, they would have strung him up good.

A: There are plenty. To start you off, see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Contemporary_non-Christian_sources).

B: No. He had already been punished with the scourging, it's as simple as that. His punishment had been carried out, and the same as the British or American legal systems, you couldn't kick someone's ass twice for the same crime. Can't reference this right now, but there were a lot of illegal things about Jesus' trial: He was arrested at night, his trial was on the eve of the Sabbath, he wasn't permitted a defence, there were no witnesses present, and so on.
Club House
30-05-2005, 19:38
They are rude and keep all there money to themselves and they own all Newspaper Stations and Some Jews are cheap

not all Jews are like this ^^^^^^^^^^^^
why do people hate christians?

They are rude and keep all there money to themselves and they own all Newspaper Stations and Some Christians are cheap

not all Christians are like this ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Club House
30-05-2005, 19:46
you probably haven't met arab jews. They're mean, ugly and stupid, and should be exterminated. (Mainly because they're stupid).

But we're hated as jews because jews think they're a nation (which is racism and false), because jews took palestinian land even though they had nothing to do with the german extermination camps. (And also because we supposedly killed christ, and even if we didn't, YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT... it's a dogma, period.)
ok so im confused. does the sun revolve around the Earth or is the Earth flat?
Jews dont think they are a nation. they are an ethnicity and a religion.
Israel is a nation no less than America is a nation (actually more so). only difference is that American killed all the previous inhabitants so there was no one to complain. so what does the New World have to do with fleeing religous persecution in Europe?
take a look around. every countries history is bloody. America's, even more so than most. Israel is younger than America but America is the country? whats the statute of limitations on nationhood in your opinion?
Kryozerkia
30-05-2005, 19:48
I don't think it's the Jews who are really hated, so much as it is the Isaralis. I have two Jewish friends - one Canadian and one Israeli. The main difference? The guy from Israel in some ways fits in the stereotypes. My point? No point really...
Club House
30-05-2005, 19:49
The fact that Israel is basically a fascist state where non-Jews are second-rate citizens, and that Israel receives ungodly sums of US taxpayer dollars to fund it's military (a military which includes WMDs), and that US blind support of Israel for decades has been one of the biggest threats to peace in the Middle East... MIGHT have something to do with it.

But no, if I say all that, I must be an "Anti-Semite," that I'm expounding "conspiracy theories." Ugh. Plus people don't even know what semites are, they use "Anti-Semite" when they mean "anti-Jew," completely ignoring all the non-Jewish Semites (who are OK to hate, as long as they MIGHT be 'terrorists.')
1. this thread is about all people not just Americans
2. anti-semitism was around before the people who thought up zionism even existed and before Columbus (and even the Vikings) set foot on the Americas
lets just disregard all the facts and spout propaganda though.
Club House
30-05-2005, 19:50
They stole our porridge
it was Goldi Lox i swear it!
German Nightmare
30-05-2005, 19:53
...
I mean, I've never met a jewish person who is terribly rude or mean or anything, at least no more so than anybody else and if I do meet such a person, I chalk it up to them being an asshole, rather than because they're jewish.
...

Exactly my thoughts. And there's assholes from all religious groups and social backgrounds.

The only thing that bothers me is that if you're arguing with someone and they happen to be an asshole (and Jewish) and you call them an asshole they retort in a way that makes you look like you're an anti-Semitic... That doesn't make much sense to me - what does religion have to do with being an ass?
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 19:54
ok so im confused. does the sun revolve around the Earth or is the Earth flat?
Jews dont think they are a nation. they are an ethnicity and a religion.
Israel is a nation no less than America is a nation (actually more so). only difference is that American killed all the previous inhabitants so there was no one to complain. so what does the New World have to do with fleeing religous persecution in Europe?
take a look around. every countries history is bloody. America's, even more so than most. Israel is younger than America but America is the country? whats the statute of limitations on nationhood in your opinion?

Do you have the first idea how Israel was formed? Britain was given the mandate after the Second World War, as if it had any right, to carve out a piece of the Middle East in the place of Biblical Israel and name it a Jewish state, for all Jews from anywhere, especially Jewish Holocaust survivors. Anyone else who wanted to go was welcome, of course, but the point is that in order to do so they basically declared "Here's your borders, land within these boundaries is to be controlled by a Jewish government." The Palestinians within that boundary weren't too happy about this, needless to say.

And yes, many Jews do think of Israel as both people and nation. The Old Testament is riddled with God Himself referring both to "my nation Israel" and "my people Israel".

Oh, and Israel in its present form has only been around since 1948. The British had been negotiating with Zionists in the area since 1937, but didn't actually go setting borders until 1948.
Club House
30-05-2005, 19:57
Do you have the first idea how Israel was formed? Britain was given the mandate after the Second World War, as if it had any right, to carve out a piece of the Middle East in the place of Biblical Israel and name it a Jewish state, for all Jews from anywhere, especially Jewish Holocaust survivors. Anyone else who wanted to go was welcome, of course, but the point is that in order to do so they basically declared "Here's your borders, land within these boundaries is to be controlled by a Jewish government." The Palestinians within that boundary weren't too happy about this, needless to say.

And yes, many Jews do think of Israel as both people and nation. The Old Testament is riddled with God Himself referring both to "my nation Israel" and "my people Israel".

Oh, and Israel in its present form has only been around since 1948. The British had been negotiating with Zionists in the area since 1937, but didn't actually go setting borders until 1948.
you never answered my question. whats the satute of limitations on nationhood?
Dakini
30-05-2005, 20:01
A: There are plenty. To start you off, see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Contemporary_non-Christian_sources).

B: No. He had already been punished with the scourging, it's as simple as that. His punishment had been carried out, and the same as the British or American legal systems, you couldn't kick someone's ass twice for the same crime. Can't reference this right now, but there were a lot of illegal things about Jesus' trial: He was arrested at night, his trial was on the eve of the Sabbath, he wasn't permitted a defence, there were no witnesses present, and so on.
A. the Joesphus passage was forged in the 3rd century.
Pliny talks about the belifs of the followers, not the man himself or the historical figure.
Suetonius does not mention Jesus, the others aren't discussed in the article. I find it funny that your own article points out that historical sources make no direct mention of Jesus as a man and that serious historians don't interpret it to be actual mentions of him... and then go on to talk about the mythological aspects....
Chrononauts
30-05-2005, 20:03
I understand why alot of Christians would hate Jews, because it was the Jewish High Priests that allowed him to be crucified by the romans (i mean come on the son of god or barrabas, a murderer & rapist, i'm telling ya they must of been smoking some of Amsterdams finest that weekend) but i think most of that is Passion of the Christ inspired, wacko evangelical stuff.
Santa Barbara
30-05-2005, 20:05
1. this thread is about all people not just Americans
2. anti-semitism was around before the people who thought up zionism even existed and before Columbus (and even the Vikings) set foot on the Americas
lets just disregard all the facts and spout propaganda though.

What does any of that have to do with what I said? Nothing! I'm well aware anti-semitism has been around a long time, and that there are non-Americans floating around this board. Fact is, I just explained a chunk of why anti-semitism is around today, a chunk that might not be if everyone weren't so ultra-forgiving towards the Jewish State.
Club House
30-05-2005, 20:11
What does any of that have to do with what I said? Nothing! I'm well aware anti-semitism has been around a long time, and that there are non-Americans floating around this board. Fact is, I just explained a chunk of why anti-semitism is around today, a chunk that might not be if everyone weren't so ultra-forgiving towards the Jewish State.
its kind of hard to respect that anti-semitism would decrease if the US stopped supporting Israel because anti-semitism has existed before zionism did. there is no evidence to support this.
The Holy Womble
30-05-2005, 20:12
The fact that Israel is basically a fascist state where non-Jews are second-rate citizens, and that Israel receives ungodly sums of US taxpayer dollars to fund it's military (a military which includes WMDs), and that US blind support of Israel for decades has been one of the biggest threats to peace in the Middle East... MIGHT have something to do with it.

But no, if I say all that, I must be an "Anti-Semite," that I'm expounding "conspiracy theories." Ugh.
Personally, I think that calling you a propaganda fed ignoramus would suffice.


Plus people don't even know what semites are, they use "Anti-Semite" when they mean "anti-Jew," completely ignoring all the non-Jewish Semites (who are OK to hate, as long as they MIGHT be 'terrorists.')
Ohh for that you should, of course, blame the Jew haters. It was them who invented the word anti-Semitism as designated to mean hatred of Jews, after all. Check out the history of the word (tip: make a search on Wilhelm Mahrr). Besides, if you're going to argue that anti-Semitism means anothing other than hatred of Jews, you are in disagreement not only with an awful lot of people, but also with an awful lot of dictionaries. Oh and with the common sense :p
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 20:19
A. the Joesphus passage was forged in the 3rd century.
Pliny talks about the belifs of the followers, not the man himself or the historical figure.
Suetonius does not mention Jesus, the others aren't discussed in the article. I find it funny that your own article points out that historical sources make no direct mention of Jesus as a man and that serious historians don't interpret it to be actual mentions of him... and then go on to talk about the mythological aspects....

Source, please? Moreover, I can't reference properly right now, I'm at Uni and my books are at home. I'll be sure to post appropriately when I get home. My apologies.

Moreover, mention is made of him by Tacitus and Lucian of Samothrace - Tacitus is explicit, in fact, and though some have doubted this there are no anachronisms or evidence for later alteration of the texts.

There's also something of an argument from the will; would twelve men have got together in the 30s to deliberately forge a text that would withstand all kinds of analysis which wouldn't be invented for thousands of years, have just the right amount of internal disagreement to be coherent with the memories of four old men forty years after the events took place, and start a religion in the region where a Messiah was said to have been born, lived and died, when in fact he hadn't? Do you not think people might have noticed if a new religion came to be, based on a man who was supposed to have entered Jerusalem to the cheers of thousands days before his execution? Moreover, why would they do this? The disciples gained no political power from it, and were persecuted and had all sorts of evils visited upon them for it.
Club House
30-05-2005, 20:20
just to add on to that anti-semitism means anti-jew because society says so. thats how words are defined. this chair is only called chair because everyone recognizes it as such. if i were to call this chair a sitting application enabler people would think that i had a brain disease.
Santa Barbara
30-05-2005, 20:21
Personally, I think that calling you a propaganda fed ignoramus would suffice.


Suffice? Yes, it suffices to prove my point and make you look like an ass. It doesn't however, suffice as reasonable discourse. Ad hominem, logical fallacy.

Ohh for that you should, of course, blame the Jew haters. It was them who invented the word anti-Semitism as designated to mean hatred of Jews, after all. Check out the history of the word (tip: make a search on Wilhelm Mahrr). Besides, if you're going to argue that anti-Semitism means anothing other than hatred of Jews, you are in disagreement not only with an awful lot of people, but also with an awful lot of dictionaries. Oh and with the common sense :p

Do you know what a Semite is? Do you know who the Semitic people are? Apparently you think Semites are Jews and Jews are Semites?

I could care less who disagrees with me. A majority, you say? Ad populous, logical fallacy. Dictionaries? Appeal to authority. This tangent on who invented the term anti-Semitism? Irrelevant.

its kind of hard to respect that anti-semitism would decrease if the US stopped supporting Israel because anti-semitism has existed before zionism did. there is no evidence to support this.

Well, if you look at things that simplistically and assume I meant that change in US policy would eliminate anti-semitism, you'd be right. I didn't mean that, however, and there are surely, you can agree, DEGREES (such as LESS or MORE) of anti-semitism, as well as LOCALITIES of anti-semitism (such as the US)? That said, I don't know whether it would decrease if US stopped supporting Israel, it was as I said speculation.
East Canuck
30-05-2005, 20:29
I've had dealing with the Jewsih community in my city and I've come to these two conclusions:

1. They give preferential treatment to fellow Jews. I've bought a pair of jeans 40$ and the next customer got the exact same pair for 10$ less. The difference? He knew the seller. I've seen it happen enough to come to this conclusion.

Maybe it comes from the persecution complex the Jews have developped over the years (and rightly so, if you ask me), maybe it was a defense mechanism they used to survive the hardship they faced, I don't know. But I find it distasteful for people who have nothing to do with past offense being swindled out of money just because.

2. When in an argument, they tend to use the anti-semite card early and without real reason. While this is an extremely potent way to debate as it puts me on the defense right away and I must also make sure I am being politically correct or I'll be seen as racist, I hate it when it's done because they always, and I mean always, bring it up. You're confronting someone because he just gave a 10$ rebate and you want an explanation as to why and they say "are you a racist?".

So, in effect, you can't argue with them, even if you are right, because you'll be seen as racist.

That is why I have a distaste with the local jews. Some are pretty stand up guys, but I just don't buy in their shop because I know I'm paying a premium. My aversion to some local customs are not based on "they killed Christ" or other historic facts but on observation I've done over the years.

Obviously, you mileage may vary depending on the local Jewish community.
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 20:31
you never answered my question. whats the satute of limitations on nationhood?

...I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand that question. Are you asking me when I think a nation stops being a nation? When it's been around too long? Could you clarify what you mean by that? I'm not familiar with American legal terms.
Club House
30-05-2005, 20:36
it happens with christians all the time too. its not jew-exclusive.
Club House
30-05-2005, 20:39
...I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand that question. Are you asking me when I think a nation stops being a nation? When it's been around too long? Could you clarify what you mean by that? I'm not familiar with American legal terms.
alright. America was founded based on slaughter, internment, and biological warfare of and against the Native Americans.
Israelis as is claimed dont deserve the land because its not theirs and they just took it by force.
America has been around for much longer than Israel but no one denies its nationhood. what number of years must Israel reach before it is just as much a nation as America (and MANY other countries)
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 20:39
I could care less who disagrees with me. A majority, you say? Ad populous, logical fallacy. Dictionaries? Appeal to authority.

Apparently you're missing the way language formation works. Or would you use the word "bastard" to refer to an illegitimate child? Would you be almightily offended by being called "naughty", because what it 'really means' is "You are nothing"? Words change, old chap, and the way one tells this is by how they're used. The meanings of words are from the populace; thus, ad populous is not a fallacy in relation to them. There is always a transitional period, of course; "imply" and "infer" do not mean the same, even though the majority may seem to think they do. Evolutionary lingustics is not an exact science.

Anti-semitism refers to the hatred of Jews - and your way of defeating this claim is to say "My version is right, and neither common usage nor the dictionary, which are the only verifiable ways of testing, are wrong." Sorry, but deductive logic doesn't work in such instances. Be inductive. And for once, admit you're wrong aobut the damn word!
Mildenior
30-05-2005, 20:42
Do you have the first idea how Israel was formed? Britain was given the mandate after the Second World War, as if it had any right, to carve out a piece of the Middle East in the place of Biblical Israel and name it a Jewish state, for all Jews from anywhere, especially Jewish Holocaust survivors. Anyone else who wanted to go was welcome, of course, but the point is that in order to do so they basically declared "Here's your borders, land within these boundaries is to be controlled by a Jewish government." The Palestinians within that boundary weren't too happy about this, needless to say.

And yes, many Jews do think of Israel as both people and nation. The Old Testament is riddled with God Himself referring both to "my nation Israel" and "my people Israel".

Oh, and Israel in its present form has only been around since 1948. The British had been negotiating with Zionists in the area since 1937, but didn't actually go setting borders until 1948.


the actual story is a bit different. a british lord called Lord Balfour had a written agreement with both sides ( jews&arabs) that outlined a plan for two countries to be established in palestine: which would be Jordan and Israel. The british government gave the right to settle for jews around palestine, and the supposedly ally of the palestinians, arabs gave their word to palestinians that they would provide a shelter for them within their land. and the palestinians agreed on that point before the balfour declaration. however the jordanians didn't keep their word.
Ucrandia
30-05-2005, 20:43
I've had dealing with the Jewsih community in my city and I've come to these two conclusions:

1. They give preferential treatment to fellow Jews. I've bought a pair of jeans 40$ and the next customer got the exact same pair for 10$ less. The difference? He knew the seller. I've seen it happen enough to come to this conclusion.

Maybe it comes from the persecution complex the Jews have developped over the years (and rightly so, if you ask me), maybe it was a defense mechanism they used to survive the hardship they faced, I don't know. But I find it distasteful for people who have nothing to do with past offense being swindled out of money just because.

Oh come on. Of course he got a rebate. But that wasn't because he was jewish, that was because HE KNEW the seller. There's nothing special about that, haven't you bought anything with a discount because you knew the guy behind the counter?

On the anti-semitism thing, i don't have any jew friends or know any jewish people. There aren't many jews around here, they were expelled from Portugal and Spain in the 1500's.

But i can tell you one thing. I hate Israel. Like it was said above, it's a fascist warmongering state. And the fact that israelis use the word "anti-semitism" against any kind of criticism of their country surely isn't helping them or the jewish community around the world. Oh well, it's their problem. They are the ones bullying every neighbour around them. What will you do when the US shifts their "bigger brother" policy (don't tell me it won't happen)?
Grave_n_idle
30-05-2005, 20:43
A: There are plenty. To start you off, see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Contemporary_non-Christian_sources).


Don't get into this.

There is no idependent, contemporary evidence for the LIFE of Jesus, let alone for his death.

None at all.

The EARLIEST 'independent' account was written half a century later, by someone who wasn't even born at the time of the crucifixion.
The Holy Womble
30-05-2005, 20:50
Suffice? Yes, it suffices to prove my point and make you look like an ass. It doesn't however, suffice as reasonable discourse. Ad hominem, logical fallacy.
For a reasonable discource, you would have to bring up reasonable arguments. Which you haven't.


Do you know what a Semite is?
Yup, I happened to be one.


Do you know who the Semitic people are?
Yup, I do. Imagine that.


Apparently you think Semites are Jews and Jews are Semites?
Jews are Semites, but not all Semites are Jews. But neither of this has anything to do with the use of the word "anti-Semitism".


I could care less who disagrees with me. A majority, you say? Ad populous, logical fallacy. Dictionaries? Appeal to authority. This tangent on who invented the term anti-Semitism? Irrelevant.
All of the above is far more relevant than one man's personal opinion. You can invent whatever meanings you want, you can play a language purist all you want- but language will work by its own rules regardless. Good luck in your struggle against common sense :D
East Canuck
30-05-2005, 20:51
Oh come on. Of course he got a rebate. But that wasn't because he was jewish, that was because HE KNEW the seller. There's nothing special about that, haven't you bought anything with a discount because you knew the guy behind the counter?

I've seen it happen enough times that I have come to the conclusion that it's not just because the seller and buyer are friends. Do you give rebate to your neighbour's cousin's brother just because he's with your neighbour in you coffee store? On the first time you meet him?

Maybe the example I used was not 100% airtight. But I've seen it enough to form the conclusion I mentionned before. Every single example I can give you can be explained away one by one. But there is a definitive trend. Enough circumptancial evidence have come my way to form my opinion.

That being said, I've got nothing against the Jew apart for these behaviours. Israel, now that is another kettle of fist altogether....
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 20:51
alright. America was founded based on slaughter, internment, and biological warfare of and against the Native Americans.
Israelis as is claimed dont deserve the land because its not theirs and they just took it by force.
America has been around for much longer than Israel but no one denies its nationhood. what number of years must Israel reach before it is just as much a nation as America (and MANY other countries)

Ah, I see. Well, the way I see it, the problem most probably lies in the fact that the mandate is still well within living memory, and, moreover, happened at the beginning of the Age of Mass Media.

In the frontier days in the States, you could just wipe out a population and nobody who mattered would notice; that is, the news would never reach those with political power, or if it did they wouldn't care. And the Europeans moving in outnumbered the natives hugely. And the Europeans had much more powerful weaponry at their disposal, and an organised military to destroy all resistance. Also, cohabitation wasn't necessary, as America is so damn big it was possible to put the natives in their own spaces later on.

The creation of Israel in 1948, on the other hand, happened in the age of automatic rifles, which brought war back to the average person for the first time since the first hand-held firearms were invented. This meant resistance was possible. There were also a lot of indigenous people, who had had nothing to do with the war but were told they would have to give up their land and move away because of it, and there weren't the overwhelming numbers to make local extermination possible. Because of this, cohabitation was necessary, and still is - and it is this which causes problems.

For the record, I'm not claiming Israel is not a nation. I don't know where you got that idea. I'm trying to point out why Israel is told it shouldn't be there; mostly due to the fact that it happened within living memory, and also the prejudice against Jews which I analysed in depth a few pages ago. If the American government sent diplomats to Turkey and the surrounding countries and declared "This area is Kurdistan, pull out all of your troops and we will set up a government there for the Kurds," you could understand why they'd be annoyed, yes?
Grave_n_idle
30-05-2005, 20:53
What is it that certain hate groups, conspiracy theorists see that the rest of us don't here?

I mean, I've never met a jewish person who is terribly rude or mean or anything, at least no more so than anybody else and if I do meet such a person, I chalk it up to them being an asshole, rather than because they're jewish.

Really, the only jewish person I know who annoys me somewhat is the guy who always brings it up, but he does the same with everything. It sucks to play texas hold 'em with this guy too.... anyways. What's the deal?

Backlash.

The Jews have historically asserted a prominance over all other peoples. Other people don't like it.

It's pretty much that simple.

Christianity is 'suffering' a similar backlash at the moment, on a much smaller scale... due to thousands of years of tellign anyone that would listen that their 'gods' are imaginary, and they will all burn in hell.
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 20:53
Don't get into this.

There is no idependent, contemporary evidence for the LIFE of Jesus, let alone for his death.

None at all.

The EARLIEST 'independent' account was written half a century later, by someone who wasn't even born at the time of the crucifixion.

I've sourced you. Do me the same courtesy, please.
Avika
30-05-2005, 20:54
Why blame the Jews? Because they're easier to blame than anyone else. Why hate the Jews? They may have sentenced Jesus to death, but it was the Romans who disided to use the cross. And besides, Jesus was a jew. Christians are basicly Jews for Jesus.
Dakini
30-05-2005, 20:55
Source, please? Moreover, I can't reference properly right now, I'm at Uni and my books are at home. I'll be sure to post appropriately when I get home. My apologies.
Your own source says that the Josephus is at least an exaggeration and at most, a complete addition. There are actual books that discuss this as well... except after the discovery of the 4th century forgery. Not to mention journal articles. www isn't always the best source of information.

Moreover, mention is made of him by Tacitus and Lucian of Samothrace - Tacitus is explicit, in fact, and though some have doubted this there are no anachronisms or evidence for later alteration of the texts.
Again, your own source states that no credible historians consider any mentions to be referring to the man himself in Samothrace and Tactius is referring to the followers and their beliefs.

There's also something of an argument from the will; would twelve men have got together in the 30s to deliberately forge a text that would withstand all kinds of analysis which wouldn't be invented for thousands of years, have just the right amount of internal disagreement to be coherent with the memories of four old men forty years after the events took place, and start a religion in the region where a Messiah was said to have been born, lived and died, when in fact he hadn't? Do you not think people might have noticed if a new religion came to be, based on a man who was supposed to have entered Jerusalem to the cheers of thousands days before his execution? Moreover, why would they do this? The disciples gained no political power from it, and were persecuted and had all sorts of evils visited upon them for it.
Or perhaps the folklore of the others conquered by the romans was adopted by a group of jewish people who adopted it to their own religion and then it became a series of urban legends that somehow became believed.

Ever hear of the gnostics?
Grave_n_idle
30-05-2005, 20:57
Jews are Semites, but not all Semites are Jews. But neither of this has anything to do with the use of the word "anti-Semitism".


I am actually agreeing with Holy Womble, here.

Common parlance may have 'accepted' the meaning for 'anti-Semitism' as being 'hatred for the Jews'... but Jews are not the only Smeitic people.

The Hebrew invasion of Canaan was an early attempt at an Anti-Semitic Genocide.
Dakini
30-05-2005, 20:59
I've had dealing with the Jewsih community in my city and I've come to these two conclusions:

1. They give preferential treatment to fellow Jews. I've bought a pair of jeans 40$ and the next customer got the exact same pair for 10$ less. The difference? He knew the seller. I've seen it happen enough to come to this conclusion.
So?

If I go to the guitar store my sis works at I can get anything there pretty much half price. It's not a jewish thing, it's knowing someone who gets an employee discount.

2. When in an argument, they tend to use the anti-semite card early and without real reason. While this is an extremely potent way to debate as it puts me on the defense right away and I must also make sure I am being politically correct or I'll be seen as racist, I hate it when it's done because they always, and I mean always, bring it up. You're confronting someone because he just gave a 10$ rebate and you want an explanation as to why and they say "are you a racist?".
I have never come accross anyone who has ever done that either. That's like saying that every black person plays the race card in an argument. yes, some are idiots and do so, but most don't.
Armandian Cheese
30-05-2005, 21:00
Nothing is wrong with Jewish people. But Europeans seem to think they control the US with their "zionist lobby" and that is the reason we support Israel rather than the "poor Palestinians."
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 21:02
Or perhaps the folklore of the others conquered by the romans was adopted by a group of jewish people who adopted it to their own religion and then it became a series of urban legends that somehow became believed.

Ever hear of the gnostics?

Yes.

On the other hand, does the fact that Islam was a transmutation of an earlier religion, largely for political purposes, make Muhammad's existence any less viable?

Yes, you're right, that page seems somewhat sceptical. Once I get home I shall get the proper stuff out; as I've said, I don't have access to it here.
Grave_n_idle
30-05-2005, 21:02
I've sourced you. Do me the same courtesy, please.

So - let me get this straight... you want me to provide sources of the 'no evidence'?
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 21:05
So - let me get this straight... you want me to provide sources of the 'no evidence'?

Yes. I want you to provide me with a reliable source claiming there is no non-Biblical textual evidence for Jesus' existence whatsoever, and backing it up by discrediting every Roman source there is.

EDIT: Although, in fairness, the Gnostic-adaptation idea has merit. I shall have to read up on this. Thanks, Dakini. Recommended reading, at all?
Club House
30-05-2005, 21:06
the actual story is a bit different. a british lord called Lord Balfour had a written agreement with both sides ( jews&arabs) that outlined a plan for two countries to be established in palestine: which would be Jordan and Israel. The british government gave the right to settle for jews around palestine, and the supposedly ally of the palestinians, arabs gave their word to palestinians that they would provide a shelter for them within their land. and the palestinians agreed on that point before the balfour declaration. however the jordanians didn't keep their word.
motion to dismiss. America slaughtered Indians but is still a nation.
Dakini
30-05-2005, 21:07
Yes.

On the other hand, does the fact that Islam was a transmutation of an earlier religion, largely for political purposes, make Muhammad's existence any less viable?

Yes, you're right, that page seems somewhat sceptical. Once I get home I shall get the proper stuff out; as I've said, I don't have access to it here.
I don't know much about Mohammed or whether there's any historical evidence that he did exist or whether there is no evidence whatsoever. If there isn't any actual, independant evidence of his existence, just as there is no external, credible evidence of Jesus' existence, then chances are he didn't exist.

Also, I wasn't the one who brought up people making things up, that was in response to your post where you claimed that 12 people (btw, aren't there only like 6 authors in the new testament?) made the whole thing up. I just said that it's possible a group of people did without realizing and then a couple people wrote it down, believing it.
Syncanor
30-05-2005, 21:08
I hate Israel. Like it was said above, it's a fascist warmongering state.

And the rest of the Middle East is a shining beacon of peace and freedom?

Saudi Arabia: It is illegal for a non-Muslim to live there. Promoting another religion is a death-penalty offence.

Iraq: For nearly 2000 years there was a thriving Jewish community in what is now Iraq. It no longer exists, its members having been driven out or killed. There was once a sizeable community of Nestorian Christians there. It was wiped out in the late ninteenth century.

Syria: A brutal dictatorship. Dissenters vanish in the night. Also had a large Christian community once, as did Lebanon. Now they're mostly gone, murdered or driven out.

Yemen, Oman, UAE, Lebanon, et al: If you have an Israel stamp in your passport you can't even enter any of these countries.

Iran: The very ancient Zoroastrian faith was driven out or murdered, along with a sizeable number of Christians and Jews.

And Israel, where one is free to practice any faith, the only country in the middle east where homosexuals are not subject to the death penalty, where women have equal rights, a country with a free press and free speech, a country whose neighbors are pleged to its total destruction, where Arab members of Parliament have called for the destruction of Israel on the floor of the Kinesset and were not expelled for it, is a fascist warmongering tyrrany?
The PLO and Israel's neighbors have called for the total destruction of Israel since the very DAY it was founded. The so-called "occupation" is a flimsy excuse.
Let's not play stupid word games. If you want to hate Jews, fine. Hate us. You hate Israel because it is a state where Jews make op the majority. Where is the outrage when Muslims kill non-Muslims on a daily basis around the world? Only when Jews fight back does the world become outraged. When we defend ourselves people can't handle it. The world would like to see us safely back under their boot heels. Well, I'm sorry to tell you, those days are over.
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 21:10
I don't know much about Mohammed or whether there's any historical evidence that he did exist or whether there is no evidence whatsoever. If there isn't any actual, independant evidence of his existence, just as there is no external, credible evidence of Jesus' existence, then chances are he didn't exist.

Also, I wasn't the one who brought up people making things up, that was in response to your post where you claimed that 12 people (btw, aren't there only like 6 authors in the new testament?) made the whole thing up. I just said that it's possible a group of people did without realizing and then a couple people wrote it down, believing it.

Damn, you're being more consistent than me. Okay, I know when I'm beaten, and I won't claim it's wholly because my source material is not at my command. Like I said above, you've also got me intrigued with this Gnostic-heritage business. I know of the Gnostics, even of some of their influence on Christianity; I'd just never before figured there was possibility that it might have been quite so total. An interesting idea.
Calusari
30-05-2005, 21:16
The answer is quite simple. Jews are smart and the rest of the world are idiots for not noticing certain things. Why blame the Jews for everything wrong in the wordl? Of course despite them being responsible, we are also responsible for not noticing! Did you get that? Easy actually!

Practically no one can prove something directly although I anticipate that in a few years things will be clearer. Just in order to understand the connections here, Hitler's mother was Jewish! Do you understand now what kind of nation are they? Einstein was Jewish... (and an idiot but he got promoted and his idiotic theories were accepted due to his nationality). Freud was a Jew (and anti-woman and anti-family)... You can see now what kind of people are famous in the world. Half the actors in Hollywood are Jewish... go ahead prove me wrong! :mp5: half the world leaders are jewish...
I think it is pointless to continue, I am sure that no matter how little you've been informed or read about the matter, you are still capable of rational thinking.

Aren't you? :D
Mekonia
30-05-2005, 21:16
For most generations the Jews have been the worlds scapegoats. One of the earliest references to them regards them being described as something to the effect of vultures coming in and taking over already established trades. I'd love to know the reason that actually started off this hatred of the Jews(and don't say its not there anymore cos it is).
I get the whole antiquity and middle ages stuff. I've always been so fasinated judaism and the roots racism and later anti semitism. Most Jews I know are lovely. only 2 I don't like, same with most people from other religons. Its your personality or its traits that gives way to dislike, not religion.
DHomme
30-05-2005, 21:16
Their noses. Seriously, what the fuck?
Tirinia
30-05-2005, 21:17
Yes. I want you to provide me with a reliable source claiming there is no non-Biblical textual evidence for Jesus' existence whatsoever, and backing it up by discrediting every Roman source there is.

EDIT: Although, in fairness, the Gnostic-adaptation idea has merit. I shall have to read up on this. Thanks, Dakini. Recommended reading, at all?

lets go with something more basic: agnostic

give me non biblical (old testiment included) proff that there even is a "god"

lets start there and work our way up to jesus
Yiddnland
30-05-2005, 21:22
ok so im confused. does the sun revolve around the Earth or is the Earth flat?
Jews dont think they are a nation. they are an ethnicity and a religion.
Israel is a nation no less than America is a nation (actually more so). only difference is that American killed all the previous inhabitants so there was no one to complain. so what does the New World have to do with fleeing religous persecution in Europe?
take a look around. every countries history is bloody. America's, even more so than most. Israel is younger than America but America is the country? whats the statute of limitations on nationhood in your opinion?

A nation is based on blood. Or would you prefer that I use the word race? It doesn’t matter. Jews DO think they are a race. I mean, of course, not all, and Zionists that say they are not racist are hypocrites. Just as America, they're not a nation. Jews don't share the same blood. Northern, eastern, western and central European Jews do share the same blood, but they don't share it with Mediterranean, middle eastern, or Ethiopian Jews. They're just a bunch of people that believe in the "same thing" (which is false too, that's like saying that Catholics and protestants believe in the same thing).

I'm Jewish but I'm against Zionism. Why? Because it is based on the bible. You can never use the bible as an argument on any conversation, and MUCH LESS for taking political measures. Jews are not a people, nor a nation, even if the bible says so. And if the European Jews, the ones that have been mainly persecuted (also Sephardim by Spain, but they had options Ashkenazim didn't, and that was a much longer time ago than the Ashkenazi holocaust), why do they have to not only steal Palestinian land (after all, Ashkenazim weren't living there since a long time before Israel was born) but make other people from other races (whether Jewish of religion or not, it doesn't matter) join them for that crime? It's the same thing as in America: The English came and slaughtered the natives and stole their land. Also a lot of Europeans came and did similar things. Now you're going to tell me that they all belonged to the same nation? Nice try, Hitler. Obviously America is a melting pot of nations (and not a nation), it started with Europeans only, and subsequently other nations joined as black people started their emancipation. Israel is also a melting pot, but of Jewish nations (of different races that belong to “the same faith”, but as I said, protestants, orthodox people and Catholics are not the same faith just as these different Jews don’t belong to the same faith) and still European (of heritage) Jews don't belong there, much less if Palestinians don't. Get the (European) Jews out of there. Oh, and by the way, here's an article I wrote two weeks ago or so:

I'm Jewish, and I must say, most of you are biased assholes. Both the ones on Israel's side, but mostly the ones on Palestine’s side.

Anyone that says that the Jews should be expelled from Israel, or murdered, or whatever against Jews is obviously biased.

But then again, most Jews blindly believe it's Israel’s right to own the whole land (they're wrong too), but it's understandable that they (in general) want a state of their own and not have a single state shared with Arabs or a partitioned land, which would obviously endanger Israel’s security.

But they're wrong.

Jews are not one people. I am very Jewish and proud but I’m definitely not proud of Israel. Most Jews are not of Semitic heritage, for god's sake. I'm not a Semite. There's no point for Israel to exist for a "people" that is comprised of different nations (Ashkenazis, Sephardim, Mizrahim, Yemenites, Romaniotes, Ethiopians, Bene Israel, the Kaiffeng jews, etc.). While at the same time, discriminating the "latest" natives (“Palestinians”, which aren’t natives really, since those lands were swamps). If someone is native to that land, perhaps the Sephardim and/or Mizrahim, but then again, most of them are really native to the Arab lands. They wouldn't have been discriminated or expelled if Israel didn't exist.

The only Jews that were prosecuted (mainly) were the Ashkenazim. Of course, Sephardim too, but at a lesser scale and a longer time ago. Nobody cares if Hitler wanted them all as one. If Hitler thought the Jews were one people, that makes it true? That’s false. Zionism is an aberration of Adolph Herzel… I mean, Benjamin. Hebrew is too. Hebrew was not the language of any Jewish nation (neither of the many I mentioned), just as Latin isn’t the language of southern Germans, the French, the Spanish, the Latin-Americans, the Portuguese, the Italian, the Rumanians, etc. Neither is Greek the language of Russian or Bulgarian or whatever orthodox Christian people.

Mizrahim spoke Arabic, Ashkenazim Yiddish, Sephardim ladino, etc. They’re not a nation. They don’t share genes, nor history, nor language. Just “religion” (but just barely, since they’re as different as protestants from Catholics). Yes Hebrew is written in the Torah, but who cares? You got to be an idiot to consider the bible for a real argument.

If Ashkenazim (like me), the most prosecuted people through modern history, wanted a land, why didn’t Germany gave them the land they stole from everyone? After all, Germans slaughtered the Ashkenazim, not the Palestinians. And they are much more related to Germany (Yiddish) and Poland than to a Semite’s Land. And the rest of the (Semite or not) Jews would have lived better (not peacefully) in their respective lands, since extremism in Arab lands wouldn’t be as high due to the lack of presence of Zionism in their land. And democracy in those lands would have advanced faster, and there wouldn’t have been any “need” to invade any Arabic land for oil, since the Jewish agenda in the states probably wouldn’t have cared anymore about the Arabic territories.

Besides, if Israel is one of the most advanced countries (technologically speaking), Imagine if it didn’t have to fight anymore? (Assuming it existed in actual German territories for Ashkenazim and that they wouldn’t need to fight anymore, which could be false). Better yet, in a cold environment (cold environments encourage intellectual activity). Even better yet, a country with an average I.Q. of 115 (because it’s inhabited mainly by Ashkenazi Jews, the people with highest I.Q. on earth, proven, read “The Jewish mystique”, “The Bell curve”, and there are several other texts that say so, and this is consistent with the fact that a fifth of Nobel prices and many other prices have been won by these guys), in that environment, with no need to fight? Humanity would have (had) a lot of benefits from this fictional (but not necessarily impossible) country. And that’s not even counting that there would be much lesser turmoil in the middle east. Palestine would have been born, and perhaps Kurdistan too.

I think something should be done to accomplish this. What do you think? Am I right or what? Message me, reply to me, heck, e-mail me. Either that or (try to) prove me wrong.
Grave_n_idle
30-05-2005, 21:23
Yes. I want you to provide me with a reliable source claiming there is no non-Biblical textual evidence for Jesus' existence whatsoever, and backing it up by discrediting every Roman source there is.

EDIT: Although, in fairness, the Gnostic-adaptation idea has merit. I shall have to read up on this. Thanks, Dakini. Recommended reading, at all?

Since you claimed evidence first - you should surely be providing EVIDENCE that Josephus or Tacitus could have been actual witnesses to what they are alleged to have recorded - which, of course, they were not.

Not to mention that you really ALSO need to prove that the 4 gospels were written by witnesses... which, of course, two of them were not...

There is not CONTEMPORARY (at the SAME time) independent support... unless you believe you have found such a thing.
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 21:23
lets go with something more basic: agnostic

give me non biblical (old testiment included) proff that there even is a "god"

lets start there and work our way up to jesus

Don't start. That's not relevant. Moreover, I am a firm agnostic. Evidence for God is a theological debate; I'm talking hermeneutical debate here, okay? Don't try to change the subject quite so wildly. If you're an agnostic I am most certainly not your enemy.
New Watenho
30-05-2005, 21:26
Since you claimed evidence first - you should surely be providing EVIDENCE that Josephus or Tacitus could have been actual witnesses to what they are alleged to have recorded - which, of course, they were not.

Not to mention that you really ALSO need to prove that the 4 gospels were written by witnesses... which, of course, two of them were not...

There is not CONTEMPORARY (at the SAME time) independent support... unless you believe you have found such a thing.

Hello! Did you miss the part where I said I'd give in to you? I can't provide such evidence, okay! What do you want, blood? :p I'm off to the Uni library to research gnosticism. If it's that or endure overkill, having already admitted fault, I'll take the quiet evening :p
The Holy Womble
30-05-2005, 21:30
A nation is based on blood. Or would you prefer that I use the word race? It doesn’t matter. Jews DO think they are a race. I mean, of course, not all, and Zionists that say they are not racist are hypocrites. Just as America, they're not a nation. Jews don't share the same blood. Northern, eastern, western and central European Jews do share the same blood, but they don't share it with Mediterranean, middle eastern, or Ethiopian Jews. They're just a bunch of people that believe in the "same thing" (which is false too, that's like saying that Catholics and protestants believe in the same thing).

I'm Jewish but I'm against Zionism. Why? Because it is based on the bible. You can never use the bible as an argument on any conversation, and MUCH LESS for taking political measures. Jews are not a people, nor a nation, even if the bible says so. And if the European Jews, the ones that have been mainly persecuted (also Sephardim by Spain, but they had options Ashkenazim didn't, and that was a much longer time ago than the Ashkenazi holocaust), why do they have to not only steal Palestinian land (after all, Ashkenazim weren't living there since a long time before Israel was born) but make other people from other races (whether Jewish of religion or not, it doesn't matter) join them for that crime? It's the same thing as in America: The English came and slaughtered the natives and stole their land. Also a lot of Europeans came and did similar things. Now you're going to tell me that they all belonged to the same nation? Nice try, Hitler. Obviously America is a melting pot of nations (and not a nation), it started with Europeans only, and subsequently other nations joined as black people started their emancipation. Israel is also a melting pot, but of Jewish nations (of different races that belong to “the same faith”, but as I said, protestants, orthodox people and Catholics are not the same faith just as these different Jews don’t belong to the same faith) and still European (of heritage) Jews don't belong there, much less if Palestinians don't. Get the (European) Jews out of there. Oh, and by the way, here's an article I wrote two weeks ago or so:

I'm Jewish, and I must say, most of you are biased assholes. Both the ones on Israel's side, but mostly the ones on Palestine’s side.

Anyone that says that the Jews should be expelled from Israel, or murdered, or whatever against Jews is obviously biased.

But then again, most Jews blindly believe it's Israel’s right to own the whole land (they're wrong too), but it's understandable that they (in general) want a state of their own and not have a single state shared with Arabs or a partitioned land, which would obviously endanger Israel’s security.

But they're wrong.

Jews are not one people. I am very Jewish and proud but I’m definitely not proud of Israel. Most Jews are not of Semitic heritage, for god's sake. I'm not a Semite. There's no point for Israel to exist for a "people" that is comprised of different nations (Ashkenazis, Sephardim, Mizrahim, Yemenites, Romaniotes, Ethiopians, Bene Israel, the Kaiffeng jews, etc.). While at the same time, discriminating the "latest" natives (“Palestinians”, which aren’t natives really, since those lands were swamps). If someone is native to that land, perhaps the Sephardim and/or Mizrahim, but then again, most of them are really native to the Arab lands. They wouldn't have been discriminated or expelled if Israel didn't exist.

The only Jews that were prosecuted (mainly) were the Ashkenazim. Of course, Sephardim too, but at a lesser scale and a longer time ago. Nobody cares if Hitler wanted them all as one. If Hitler thought the Jews were one people, that makes it true? That’s false. Zionism is an aberration of Adolph Herzel… I mean, Benjamin. Hebrew is too. Hebrew was not the language of any Jewish nation (neither of the many I mentioned), just as Latin isn’t the language of southern Germans, the French, the Spanish, the Latin-Americans, the Portuguese, the Italian, the Rumanians, etc. Neither is Greek the language of Russian or Bulgarian or whatever orthodox Christian people.

Mizrahim spoke Arabic, Ashkenazim Yiddish, Sephardim ladino, etc. They’re not a nation. They don’t share genes, nor history, nor language. Just “religion” (but just barely, since they’re as different as protestants from Catholics). Yes Hebrew is written in the Torah, but who cares? You got to be an idiot to consider the bible for a real argument.

If Ashkenazim (like me), the most prosecuted people through modern history, wanted a land, why didn’t Germany gave them the land they stole from everyone? After all, Germans slaughtered the Ashkenazim, not the Palestinians. And they are much more related to Germany (Yiddish) and Poland than to a Semite’s Land. And the rest of the (Semite or not) Jews would have lived better (not peacefully) in their respective lands, since extremism in Arab lands wouldn’t be as high due to the lack of presence of Zionism in their land. And democracy in those lands would have advanced faster, and there wouldn’t have been any “need” to invade any Arabic land for oil, since the Jewish agenda in the states probably wouldn’t have cared anymore about the Arabic territories.

Besides, if Israel is one of the most advanced countries (technologically speaking), Imagine if it didn’t have to fight anymore? (Assuming it existed in actual German territories for Ashkenazim and that they wouldn’t need to fight anymore, which could be false). Better yet, in a cold environment (cold environments encourage intellectual activity). Even better yet, a country with an average I.Q. of 115 (because it’s inhabited mainly by Ashkenazi Jews, the people with highest I.Q. on earth, proven, read “The Jewish mystique”, “The Bell curve”, and there are several other texts that say so, and this is consistent with the fact that a fifth of Nobel prices and many other prices have been won by these guys), in that environment, with no need to fight? Humanity would have (had) a lot of benefits from this fictional (but not necessarily impossible) country. And that’s not even counting that there would be much lesser turmoil in the middle east. Palestine would have been born, and perhaps Kurdistan too.

I think something should be done to accomplish this. What do you think? Am I right or what? Message me, reply to me, heck, e-mail me. Either that or (try to) prove me wrong.
You aren't Jewish. You are a white supremacist posing as a Jew to mislead people.
Grave_n_idle
30-05-2005, 21:32
Hello! Did you miss the part where I said I'd give in to you? I can't provide such evidence, okay! What do you want, blood? :p I'm off to the Uni library to research gnosticism. If it's that or endure overkill, having already admitted fault, I'll take the quiet evening :p

That post must have come AFTER the post I was responding to... :)
Club House
30-05-2005, 21:35
A nation is based on blood. Or would you prefer that I use the word race? It doesn’t matter. Jews DO think they are a race. I mean, of course, not all, and Zionists that say they are not racist are hypocrites. Just as America, they're not a nation.
what? america isn't a nation?
saying it does not make it so. in order to have an intelligent conversation you must work with the same language as is generally accepted by the rest of the world. and by that definition America is a nation and Israel is just as entitled to nationhood and sovereignty as America.
and since when is "a nation based on blood?" what the hell does that even mean?
Yiddnland
30-05-2005, 21:56
You aren't Jewish. You are a white supremacist posing as a Jew to mislead people.

Why would I be white supremacist, you moron? I'm more jewish than any american jew. American jewish identity is so disolved that they're barely jewish just because they have some heritage. They don't even speak yiddish anymore.
The Holy Womble
30-05-2005, 22:01
Why would I be white supremacist, you moron?
Nobody else would suggest a ridiculous notion that "a nation is based on blood". Nobody else would suggest that Israel is "a country with an average I.Q. of 115 because it’s inhabited mainly by Ashkenazi Jews" (this is bullshit, btw, the majority of the Israeli Jews today are Sephardic). Your ignorance about the basic facts of Jewish history and culture is so stunning that no Jew reading your post could possibly consider you anything but a fake.
Ucrandia
30-05-2005, 22:02
And the rest of the Middle East is a shining beacon of peace and freedom?

....


The PLO and Israel's neighbors have called for the total destruction of Israel since the very DAY it was founded. The so-called "occupation" is a flimsy excuse.


Note that i didn't say that "the rest of the Middle East is a shining beacon of peace and freedom?". Read my text. I say nothing about that.
Covering up your mistakes with the next door neighbours doesn't make them dissapear now does it?

Of course the PLO was (note the WAS - now only Hamas and extremist groups want that) calling for the total destruction of Israel when it was founded. IT WAS FOUNDED IN THEIR OWN LAND. How do you feel if i went to your house, confiscated it and threw off your family killing one or two members in the process?


Let's not play stupid word games. If you want to hate Jews, fine. Hate us. You hate Israel because it is a state where Jews make op the majority. Where is the outrage when Muslims kill non-Muslims on a daily basis around the world? Only when Jews fight back does the world become outraged. When we defend ourselves people can't handle it. The world would like to see us safely back under their boot heels. Well, I'm sorry to tell you, those days are over.

And there you have. A perfect example of what i posted earlier. When someone criticizes Israel for its actions, you accuse them of being an anti-semite. Well done. Now ask yourself why is anti-semitism on the rise in Europe, which is increasingly pacifist and moving (although slowly) towards full racial acceptance and intermixture?
Yiddnland
30-05-2005, 22:06
what? america isn't a nation?
saying it does not make it so. in order to have an intelligent conversation you must work with the same language as is generally accepted by the rest of the world. and by that definition America is a nation and Israel is just as entitled to nationhood and sovereignty as America.
and since when is "a nation based on blood?" what the hell does that even mean?

To say: "America is a nation" is an insult to native Americans. Of course, the context "nation" is used in "One nation under god" is not a racist one. But America is definitely not a nation. It's a melting pot of nations. Or it is a state. But let's clarify: Israel is just a state, not a nation. The concept of "The nation of Israel" is based on the Zionist (racist) ideal that all Jews belong to the same people (or nation, or more specifically, race), disregarding the fact that Judaism is only a religion, that Jews from Europe don't look a bit similar to the middle eastern Jews, that Israel was inhabited by Arabs back when Political "Rational" Zionism was invented (by Adolph Herzel). Now you get what does it mean "based on blood", dipshit? Or as I said, do you prefer the term RACE?
The Holy Womble
30-05-2005, 22:08
Now ask yourself why is anti-semitism on the rise in Europe, which is increasingly pacifist and moving (although slowly) towards full racial acceptance and intermixture?
Because Europe is neither increasingly pacifist nor is it moving towards intermixture?
Yiddnland
30-05-2005, 22:13
Nobody else would suggest a ridiculous notion that "a nation is based on blood". Nobody else would suggest that Israel is "a country with an average I.Q. of 115 because it’s inhabited mainly by Ashkenazi Jews" (this is bullshit, btw, the majority of the Israeli Jews today are Sephardic). Your ignorance about the basic facts of Jewish history and culture is so stunning that no Jew reading your post could possibly consider you anything but a fake.

Your grammar is good, but it seems that you lack skills in reading comprehension. I never said that Israel has an average I.Q. of 115. It has an average I.Q. of 94, by the way, since it's inhabited mainly by Sephardim, Mizrahim, Yemenites, Ethiopians, and Arabic "non-jews". Ashkenazim are much less than 50%. Indeed, I must be an ignorant, since you say so, disregarding the fact that you probably think that there are only (or mainly) two type of jews: "Ashkenazim and Sephardim". Way to fuel the fire, putz.

Nobody would suggest a ridiculous notion that "a nation is based on blood"? Then what is a nation, dumbass? It seems that you also lack the ability to understand the different meanings of one word in different contexts.
Ucrandia
30-05-2005, 22:15
Because Europe is neither increasingly pacifist nor is it moving towards intermixture?

Moving towards intermixture is a slow process, however i believe it is happening right now. In response to the increases in right-wing extremism, there has been a lot of campaigns against racism all over europe. Even over here, where the extremist right wing party (PNR) has 0.1% of voters.

About being increasingly pacifist... come on, i don't think i will need to give you an example :rolleyes:

Why don't you comment on the rest of my post?
Letila
30-05-2005, 22:24
Have you ever seen a neo-nazi run a bank or direct a movie? I would suggest not trying to. It's not pretty. That, and the Jews also created the Qaballah, which without which, we might never have had Neon Genesis Evangelion.
Syncanor
30-05-2005, 22:40
Note that i didn't say that "the rest of the Middle East is a shining beacon of peace and freedom?". Read my text. I say nothing about that.

I point out that compared to the other countries of the Middle East, Israel is that shining beacon.

Of course the PLO was (note the WAS - now only Hamas and extremist groups want that) calling for the total destruction of Israel when it was founded.
Not correct. The PLO continues to call for the destruction of Israel, only now they call it "Zionism". See articles 19,20,21.
The Offical PLO Charter (http://www.pna.gov.ps/Government/gov/plo_Charter.asp)

And there you have. A perfect example of what i posted earlier. When someone criticizes Israel for its actions, you accuse them of being an anti-semite. Well done. Now ask yourself why is anti-semitism on the rise in Europe, which is increasingly pacifist and moving (although slowly) towards full racial acceptance and intermixture?

I accuse you of being anti-Jewish when you condemn Israel because Israel's government is dominated by Jews, and its actions are carried out in the best interestes of Jews. Therefore, when one condemns those actions, one is acting against the best interests of the Jews, and is therefore anti-Jewish.
Hiding behind the excuse "I don't hate Jews, I just hate Israel" is baloney. They are one and the same.
And it's alright for people to hate Jews because we are watching out for ourselves now? Like I said before, it really irks Europe that their favorate whipping boy can now fight back.

And now on to Yiddnland.

Being Jewish is not a nationality/race/ethnicity? I shall quote from the Oxford English Dictionary's definition of ethnic group:

Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic.

Well, lets define Race according to the OED as well.

A group of persons, animals, or plants, connected by common descent or origin.

Now let's define nation:

A large aggregate of communities and individuals united by factors such as common descent, language, culture, history, or occupation of the same territory, so as to form a distinct people. Now also: such a people forming a political state; a political state. (In early use also in pl.: a country.)

Now America is a nation by these definitions, not a race or ethnic group. Jews are a race, an ethnic group, and a nation by these definitions.

Now, you say Jews are not a race, a nation, or an ethnicity. Well, what makes a Jew a Jew then? It's not descent, because they're not a race. It's not common belief, because you say Jews don't have a common belief system or culture. It's not place of origin, because you say that Jews come from many places.
So, the only thing left is self-identification as a Jew. But that is insufficient as a characteristic. I can self-identify as the king of England, but I'm not. I can relly, truly believe it, and it still won't make me king of England. Why not? Because there are rules that govern who is king of England, and I don't fit those rules.
Similarly, there are rules that govern who is a Jew. The Bible says that a Jew is someone a) whose mother was Jewish or b) who has chosen to accept the belief system laid out in the Bible, otherwise known as conversion.
But wait! You say
You can never use the bible as an argument on any conversation
So, the Bible's definition of a Jew is right out. What rules then define who is a Jew? We're back to self-identification, which is insufficient because it has no external reference point.
Therefore, according to your argument there is no such thing as a Jew.

In conclusion, then, I believe that being Jewish is an ethnicity/race/nation and that criticism of Israel's actions is equal to being anti-Jewish. Does that then make me a Jewish supremacist?
[NS]New Watenho
30-05-2005, 22:52
I accuse you of being anti-Jewish when you condemn Israel because Israel's government is dominated by Jews, and its actions are carried out in the best interestes of Jews. Therefore, when one condemns those actions, one is acting against the best interests of the Jews, and is therefore anti-Jewish.

Nonsense. Allow me to demonstrate:

Germany's government is dominated by Christians, and its actions are carried out in the best interests of its citizens, the huge majority of whom are Christians. Therefore, when one condemns those actions, one is acting against the best interests of the Christians, and is therefore anti-Christian.
Ucrandia
30-05-2005, 22:56
Not correct. The PLO continues to call for the destruction of Israel, only now they call it "Zionism". See articles 19,20,21.
The Offical PLO Charter (http://www.pna.gov.ps/Government/gov/plo_Charter.asp)

Read below (same link you gave me):
"Amendments

In a letter to Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, Yasser Arafat stated that those articles which denied Israel's right to exist or are inconsistent with the PLO's new commitments to Israel following their mutual reognition, were no longer valid (see Oslo peace process).

The PNC met in a special session on 26 April 1996 to consider the issue of amending the Charter and adopted the following decision:

A. The Palestinian National Charter is hereby amended by canceling the articles that are contrary to the letters exchanged the P.L.O. and the Government of Israel 9-10 September 1993.

B. Assigns its legal committee with the task of redrafting the Palestinian National Charter in order to present it to the first session of the Palestinian Central Council.

The decision was adopted by a vote of: 504 in favor, 54 against, and 14 abstentions.

On January 1998, Yasser Arafat sent a letter to US President, Bill Clinton, outlining the implications of this decision in terms of the specific articles of the Charter that were nullified or amended as a result of that decision. In December 1998, both the PLO Executive Committee and the PLO Central Council reaffirmed this decision "


I accuse you of being anti-Jewish when you condemn Israel because Israel's government is dominated by Jews, and its actions are carried out in the best interestes of Jews. Therefore, when one condemns those actions, one is acting against the best interests of the Jews, and is therefore anti-Jewish.
Hiding behind the excuse "I don't hate Jews, I just hate Israel" is baloney. They are one and the same.
And it's alright for people to hate Jews because we are watching out for ourselves now? Like I said before, it really irks Europe that their favorate whipping boy can now fight back.

Now that is really good logic. Let's apply that to the US:

I hate the current US administration for it's foreign policy. According to your logic:
I hate US administration --> US administration is run by american people --> I hate the american people

Good one pal. You're just burying yourself more in the mud.
Steel Butterfly
30-05-2005, 22:58
They Were The Reason Why Germany Lost Wwi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

K, hitler
Syncanor
30-05-2005, 23:04
Nonsense. Allow me to demonstrate:

Germany's government is dominated by Christians, and its actions are carried out in the best interests of its citizens, the huge majority of whom are Christians. Therefore, when one condemns those actions, one is acting against the best interests of the Christians, and is therefore anti-Christian.


Ahh, but Germany is a state whose citizens happen to be Christian, whereas Israel is a Jewish State, a country founded by Jews and for Jews, as is stated in the Declaration of Establishemnt of the State of Israel, which can be read here (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Declaration%20of%20Establishment%20of%20State%20of%20Israel). Thus, my point stands
Note that the Declaration also guarantees freedom of religion, conscience, language, education, and culture to all inhabitants of Israel regardless of race, religion, or gender.
Israel's fundamental declaration offers peace and freedom to its neighbors. They chose to disregard that, and now Israel is at war with those same neighbors, and has been since its foundation.
Syawla
30-05-2005, 23:08
Everybody gotta hate something! I hate squash.

I hate purple coloured sweets. :sniper:
[NS]New Watenho
30-05-2005, 23:11
Ahh, but Germany is a state whose citizens happen to be Christian, whereas Israel is a Jewish State, a country founded by Jews and for Jews, as is stated in the Declaration of Establishemnt of the State of Israel, which can be read here (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Declaration%20of%20Establishment%20of%20State%20of%20Israel). Thus, my point stands
Note that the Declaration also guarantees freedom of religion, conscience, language, education, and culture to all inhabitants of Israel regardless of race, religion, or gender.
Israel's fundamental declaration offers peace and freedom to its neighbors. They chose to disregard that, and now Israel is at war with those same neighbors, and has been since its foundation.

So... you're telling me the state was founded by Jews for Jews, yet has total freedom of religion? The concept of forming a state on the basis that it is "by X group for X group" and yet being totally unbiased towards any others in it is, to say the very least, naive. Moreover, there are numerous examples of Muslim nations one could apply the test to; they are officially Islamic, run by Muslims, for Muslims the same way Israel claims to be by Jews and for Jews, but to criticise their governments would not be called criticising Muslims.
Syncanor
30-05-2005, 23:12
Regarding the Amendment, it is meaningless as it does not specify which articles are to be striken.
Arafat may have discussed it with Clinton, but they have not attached notice to their charter as to which articles are void. It's nice they had a pow-wow about it, but let's announce specifics, please.
Syawla
30-05-2005, 23:12
Exactly. The obvious problem here is fear. The classic European anti Semitism that STILL prevails from the Middle Ages to present day (I really do have one huge problem with Europe, and that is it's blatant and flagrant anti-Semitism) is easily traced back to the wealth of Jews and their influential positions in historical society. Plenty of Jews were and are poor, plenty were/are unknown, but the few who were not so were seen as the stereotype for Jews. Add to this good ol' Medieval Catholic fundamentalism and you have an outright hatred for Jews. Remember the Jews' Exchequer? Jews were taxed in England for being Jews. Simple. Non Jews feared the wealth and power that a few Jews had and most of all feared them using it to help the poor Jews better themselves and raise themselves out of oppression by the Europeans. Nothing at all is wrong with Jews, but there is plenty wrong with those who hate or fear them. Would you hate or fear Native Americans? Of course not. Another harmless, misunderstood (well, at time of relocations they were) people who were persecuted unfairly.

How can you hate Europe for things done centuries ago? That's like hating people who wear black for the Salem Witch Trials? Or hating whites because of the lynch mobs in the South? (I wrote my degree part one thesis on the expulsion of the Jews from England so I am happy to argue with you on that score.)

And I don't know if you know this but the people who were guilty of the holocaust were tried in a court headed by a Brit!

This is the problem that many Americans face when entering Europe in that Europeans see Americans as being ignorant and holding false stereotypes, which is of course a terrible generalisation. You do not go far in eradicating that view however with such blatant idiocy! (I have American friends so this is not a pop at the USA).
Syncanor
30-05-2005, 23:15
Israel is a state by Jews and for Jews and its primary interest is to safeguard the interests of its Jewish citizens.
It has total freedom of religion as well, in that you are free to be a citizen of Israel and not be a Jew, to practice and believe as you will, as long as you are not a threat to the state.
Very much like in America you can believe and practice as you will as long as you do not violate the law.
In the Muslim countries I mentioned, you are not permitted to be a non-Muslim, and the act of being a non-Muslim in those states is considered a threat to the state.
[NS]New Watenho
30-05-2005, 23:20
In the Muslim countries I mentioned, you are not permitted to be a non-Muslim, and the act of being a non-Muslim in those states is considered a threat to the state.

Okay, I'll accept your first point (about Israel being a religious state which still has rleigious freedom), but you still haven't answered mine, except with an attack on the nations you quoted. Take, say, Syria. The Syrian government is Muslim, and works for the interests of its citizens, who are Muslims. Does an attack on the Syrian government therefore constitute an attack on Islam?

EDIT: I have to be up very early tomorrow. Apologies, Synancor; I shall catch up later.
Amoebistan
30-05-2005, 23:21
"You take a group of people, who claim to be the chosen ones of God, who say that you can not join them as you have to be born Jewish."

Um, no?

You can convert if you want. Of course, men who convert have to be circumcised if they're uncut; if they're already circumcised, they need to let a drop of blood be drawn from their penis tip... Painful? Probably.
Ucrandia
30-05-2005, 23:23
Regarding the Amendment, it is meaningless as it does not specify which articles are to be striken.
Arafat may have discussed it with Clinton, but they have not attached notice to their charter as to which articles are void. It's nice they had a pow-wow about it, but let's announce specifics, please.

Meaningless is this discussion with you. You simply disregard the facts and arguments before you, dismissing them as untruthful and accusing people of anti-semitism.
Xandyzon
30-05-2005, 23:43
I think its fear and jealousy. Personally, I like Jews, I have sevral Jewish friends, they make jokes about my aryan looks and ancestry and and I make jokes about their zionist conspiracy and fattening food, all in good fun.

The idiotic Zionist conspiracy Theories have their basis in a truth that pokes big holes in the crazy theories. For thousands of years, Jews have been persecuted, but through it all, they survived. How? With intelligence and ingenuity, yes. They kept to their own kind and helped eachother out as much as possible. They had to. What is so wrong about helping out your fellow peoples? Congregations at most Christian churches are a network for helping eachother out as much as any community of Jews does. The difference is that all those years of persecution have given Jews something very precious to them:UNITY.

Europeans have tried for millenia to wipe out Jews and their culture, but with no success. Even Hitlers monstrous program of Genocide failed. Thats pretty amazing. My fathers culture was wiped out by the Soviets in only a few short years. Not the Jews. I think some people prone to paranoia and delusions see something sinister behind the Jews continued survival. They're smart and they're tough, thats all. If the wealthy of other cultures gave as much money to charites and the arts as the Jews do, we'd be a lot better off. My career is in the arts, and one of the reasons I like Jews is that wherever they congregate, the Arts community flourishes because of their support. While there are quite a few total bastards with a lot of power in Israel, they aren't bastards because they're Jews, they're just bastards.

The Jews are an easy scapegoat for politicians wishing to distract people from the real problems facing them. People also buy into the BS because they want to feel better than somebody else. Insecure people will buy any line that lets them get a taste of superiority, no matter how false that superiority really is.

Really, think about it. IF all Europians in the medievlal times wanted to kill jews, do you really think they wouldn't suceed in doing so?
And it also sounds to me like you have done no reasearch on the 'genocide' project. It wasen't about killing them. It was about getting jobs back to the germans.. It DID get very overboard, but that's another storie.

Personally, i hate all religions. I normally dislike people who belive strongly in religions, any kind. I dislike Christianity, Islam and also Jewism. Hindu, nordic mythologi, greek mythologi and any mono/poly-theism. I don't mind jews because they're jews, but because of the whole: We're poor, we're supressed, help us' syndrom that they carry. They don't think twice about any other people in their times of need.
The reason they're good buisness people; they don't give a shit about anyone else. So Hitlers idea was: So why should i give a shit about them?
Now don't think i'm defending what he did in any way, i would have wished he never became chansler. I hated him for what he did more than Bush(and trust me, that's saying alot coming from me), but he just felt the need to kill everything that didn't like him. Common dictator complex.

Jews today though, walking down the street, you can't see if they're jews or not. Really, you can't. They're walking around with your buddist, muslims, hindus', gnostics, atheists, satanists, christians and any other religion you can think about(exept for hare krishna, you can spot the bald headed, robe wearing, airport-people a mile away). They have blended in. So now it's not about your religion, it's about your community. The US for example is open minded, and normally have their arms open to any kind of so-called 'race' or religion. Of course there are some who are racist bastards who don't understand that maybe mexicans do more drugs, but if you look past the 'mexicanism', then they're just people who have a thougher life, and that's why they do more drugs. It's not the same thing with jews though. Past their 'jewism' there is just more 'jewism', even if the jew dosn't consider himself a frim beliver. So i think what i'm trying to say(i get caught up in what i'm writing i sometimes forget both my point and my view :confused: ) is that jews, are jew, because they're jews, and if you don't like jews, you don't like jews, because they're jews, and not because they're jewish people. Man i hope that makes sence.. *looks it over*.. No it dosen't.. Who cares :headbang:

Just my 2 cents
-Xander
Yiddnland
30-05-2005, 23:51
Quote:
Note that i didn't say that "the rest of the Middle East is a shining beacon of peace and freedom?". Read my text. I say nothing about that.


I point out that compared to the other countries of the Middle East, Israel is that shining beacon.
Quote:
Of course the PLO was (note the WAS - now only Hamas and extremist groups want that) calling for the total destruction of Israel when it was founded.

Not correct. The PLO continues to call for the destruction of Israel, only now they call it "Zionism". See articles 19,20,21.
The Offical PLO Charter
Quote:
And there you have. A perfect example of what i posted earlier. When someone criticizes Israel for its actions, you accuse them of being an anti-semite. Well done. Now ask yourself why is anti-semitism on the rise in Europe, which is increasingly pacifist and moving (although slowly) towards full racial acceptance and intermixture?


I accuse you of being anti-Jewish when you condemn Israel because Israel's government is dominated by Jews, and its actions are carried out in the best interestes of Jews. Therefore, when one condemns those actions, one is acting against the best interests of the Jews, and is therefore anti-Jewish.
Hiding behind the excuse "I don't hate Jews, I just hate Israel" is baloney. They are one and the same.
And it's alright for people to hate Jews because we are watching out for ourselves now? Like I said before, it really irks Europe that their favorate whipping boy can now fight back.

And now on to Yiddnland.

Being Jewish is not a nationality/race/ethnicity? I shall quote from the Oxford English Dictionary's definition of ethnic group:
Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic.

Jews don’t even exist anymore as a “race” or “nation” or “ethnicity”, since there are several races/ethnicities/nations that have “the same religion” (and it’s arguable the fact that it’s not even the same religion, as I said, Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism are NOT the same religion. So can be said about Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Romaniotes, Mizrahim, Ethiopians, Indian Jews, Far Eastern Jews, etc. and me being ‘Jewish’ (Ashkenazi to be precise) that’s saying a lot). Jews don’t even have a natural language for which they share a bond. Of course, Hebrew is a modern reinvention of the one that is written in the Torah, but that is the same as saying that Latin is the same language for all catholic nations, which is blatantly untrue.



Well, lets define Race according to the OED as well.
A group of persons, animals, or plants, connected by common descent or origin.

Today’s modern Jews, which have different heritages, don’t belong to the same race.


Now let's define nation:
A large aggregate of communities and individuals united by factors such as common descent, language, culture, history, or occupation of the same territory, so as to form a distinct people. Now also: such a people forming a political state; a political state. (In early use also in pl.: a country.)

In jews:
Common descent=False.
Language? = False (Yiddish, Sephardic Spanish or ladino, and some of these existed once too: Judeofarsi, Judeoitalian, Judeogreek, Judeofrench, Judeoaramaic and Judeoarabic, etc.)
History? = False. Ashkenazim have a much more similar history between themselves than the rest of the Jews. Almost all of them lived the Russian revolution, and the holocaust, contrary to the rest of the Jews. (Of course, a few Sephardim suffered the holocaust, but nothing comparable to the whole Sephardic population, or the Ashkenazi population). On the contrary, Ashkenazim didn’t suffer the inquisition. They suffered the crusades (Sephardim didn’t).
People forming a political state?= Well, yeah, so? The idea of the state is totally false. It is based on the fallacious assumptions that all Jews share the same language, common descent, and history. Even worse, everything is based on a fairy tale.
[/QUOTE]

Now America is a nation by these definitions, not a race or ethnic group. Jews are a race, an ethnic group, and a nation by these definitions.
[/QUOTE]
They share nothing but a political union (and that can be arguable too, but I don’t give a damn anyway… Americans can think they’re a nation, regardless of the fact that they’re not, for all I care). All Americans have this in common:… Oh wait, they have nothing in common. Not the same race, they didn’t have the same language always until they stopped having a choice, not that they really love the English language, and not like it was their ancestors language. Also this is an assumption that every group that shares the same political beliefs can group themselves to build a state and therefore become a nation. Why not? Who cares if we invade other people’s lands? We believe in freedom, so we’re allowed to either steal land from the Indians or Palestinians. Never mind the facts of how much blood we shed. We’re a nation, not minding we didn’t share history, language, or religion.



Now, you say Jews are not a race, a nation, or an ethnicity. Well, what makes a Jew a Jew then? It's not descent, because they're not a race. It's not common belief, because you say Jews don't have a common belief system or culture. It's not place of origin, because you say that Jews come from many places.

As I said, Jews don’t exist as a race, nation, ethnicity or religion anymore. It’s just the Zionist (bullshit) bond. Not even culture because depending on the origin of the family, you find different languages, history, food, etc.


So, the only thing left is self-identification as a Jew. But that is insufficient as a characteristic. I can self-identify as the king of England, but I'm not. I can relly, truly believe it, and it still won't make me king of England. Why not? Because there are rules that govern who is king of England, and I don't fit those rules.
The things left are the culture of the different ethnic or racial groups of jews there are. And you could argue too about the different jewish religions, even if they all believe in the Torah, Ashkenazim have different rituals than Sephardim, and from mizrahim, and from Yemenites, Ethiopians, bene Israel (Indians), kaifeng (far eastern jews), etc.
Similarly, there are rules that govern who is a Jew. The Bible says that a Jew is someone a) whose mother was Jewish or b) who has chosen to accept the belief system laid out in the Bible, otherwise known as conversion.
But wait! You say



You can never use the bible as an argument on any conversation


So, the Bible's definition of a Jew is right out. What rules then define who is a Jew? We're back to self-identification, which is insufficient because it has no external reference point.
Therefore, according to your argument there is no such thing as a Jew.
Agreed. There is no “Jew” in general. There are different types, that share little in common or none. Ashkenazim share MUCH MORE in common with their European ex-hosts than with their middle eastern hosts or “co-religionists” (I’m using the word loosely here). That’s why I think Germany should have been the place to found a “Yiddnland” (land of Jews in Yiddish) rather than in Palestine. After all, the Germans slaughtered the yiddn, not the Palestinians.

In conclusion, then, I believe that being Jewish is an ethnicity/race/nation and that criticism of Israel's actions is equal to being anti-Jewish. Does that then make me a Jewish supremacist?


I repeat: Your conclusion is based on fallacious assumptions. Yes, that makes you a Jewish supremacist. And that’s hypocritical because, you probably say you’re not racist, but by declaring that Jews are indeed a race is racism. I mean, you could probably say I’m a racist too, but at least I’m not such a hypocrite as to say: “All Jews are a distinct people from the rest… but wait, all Jews are equally Jewish, and share the same identity, disregarding all the facts that you just mentioned”. I mean, why a nation only for Jews? Why discriminate in favor of Jews (as a whole even if they’re not a single whole, but a lot different wholes)?

Not like I don’t discriminate in favor of everyone, but at least I know my differences with another Jews and I’m not acting irrationally (and ripping others people’s rights just for my stupid false ideals). Either every ethnic group is equal to the others, or every ethnic group is different to every other group. Or do you believe that some ethnic groups are indeed the same group, as opposed to others? Oh wait, yes you do, you’re a Zionist. Fucking incredible. I mean, disregarding that Zionism is logically wrong, you don’t really win anything by defending the irrational ideal of Zionism. Read my post (again) about the nation of only Ashkenazim, and see why it is much more convenient, and logical.
Syncanor
30-05-2005, 23:58
[NS]New Watenho, yes, an attack on a state ruled by Sharia or by an officially Muslim government is an attack against Islam, which is in keeping with the interpretation of Islamic law that many Muslim fundamentalists hold dear.

Ucrandia, I have responded to the arguments brought forth in a civil manner. I have not disregarded the points brough up, I have disagreed with them. You are welcome to find fault with my arguments and to disagree with them. The fact that you do not agree with them does not make my arguments meaningless.
Regarding the PLO charter:
Discussing the need for change, saying that you've discussed privately what changes where made is not the same as actually making changes.
I've discussed with the other residents of my house the need to repaint the bedrooms. We've all agreed that this needs to be done, and it's been written on the to-do list. However, no paintbrush has touched the wall. That we've discussed it doesn't make it so.
The PLO, Israel, and the US have discussed changing the charter, they've passed a resolution to change it, but without actually specifying, in public, which articles are cancelled, they haven't done anything significant.
Syncanor
31-05-2005, 00:33
Yiddnland, my view of what makes a Jew and yours are fundamentally incompatible. Going on any more would be counter-productive, as we're not even in the same frame of reference.
I'll agree to disagree with you!
And I'm happy to be a Jewish Supremacist. It has a nice ring to it :D
Drakedia
31-05-2005, 00:40
Jewish people taste really bad.

Overcooked?
Gatren
31-05-2005, 00:42
All the Jewish people I know are great. My best friend was Jewish up until Grade six when I moved.

I find it funny when people call them obsessed with money, or cheap, or anything along those lines.

How many people in today's society aren't? :p
Yiddnland
31-05-2005, 00:54
Yiddnland, my view of what makes a Jew and yours are fundamentally incompatible. Going on any more would be counter-productive, as we're not even in the same frame of reference.
I'll agree to disagree with you!
And I'm happy to be a Jewish Supremacist. It has a nice ring to it :D

You should join me. I mean, you should be an "ashkenazi supremacist" (some call me that way, although I'm only looking for the most logical and correct thing to do). After all, it wouldn't be hypocritical like being a jewish supremacist. Even if you disagree, it would be the logical thing to do.
Yiddnland
31-05-2005, 01:16
New Watenho']So... you're telling me the state was founded by Jews for Jews, yet has total freedom of religion? The concept of forming a state on the basis that it is "by X group for X group" and yet being totally unbiased towards any others in it is, to say the very least, naive. Moreover, there are numerous examples of Muslim nations one could apply the test to; they are officially Islamic, run by Muslims, for Muslims the same way Israel claims to be by Jews and for Jews, but to criticise their governments would not be called criticising Muslims.

No, it's not naive. It's hypocritical.
Doom777
31-05-2005, 01:26
What is it that certain hate groups, conspiracy theorists see that the rest of us don't here?

I mean, I've never met a jewish person who is terribly rude or mean or anything, at least no more so than anybody else and if I do meet such a person, I chalk it up to them being an asshole, rather than because they're jewish.

Really, the only jewish person I know who annoys me somewhat is the guy who always brings it up, but he does the same with everything. It sucks to play texas hold 'em with this guy too.... anyways. What's the deal?
Would you revise that knowing that I am Jewish (and observing)
:P
Santa Barbara
31-05-2005, 03:42
Apparently you're missing the way language formation works. Or would you use the word "bastard" to refer to an illegitimate child? Would you be almightily offended by being called "naughty", because what it 'really means' is "You are nothing"? Words change, old chap, and the way one tells this is by how they're used. The meanings of words are from the populace; thus, ad populous is not a fallacy in relation to them. There is always a transitional period, of course; "imply" and "infer" do not mean the same, even though the majority may seem to think they do. Evolutionary lingustics is not an exact science.

Anti-semitism refers to the hatred of Jews - and your way of defeating this claim is to say "My version is right, and neither common usage nor the dictionary, which are the only verifiable ways of testing, are wrong." Sorry, but deductive logic doesn't work in such instances. Be inductive. And for once, admit you're wrong aobut the damn word!

Yes, words change - especially when it suits peoples political agendas to.

Words, language, is thought itself. I'm not about to let others dictate the way I think, the way I speak, and accept things because someone says they're "common sense." Is it common use for anti-Semitism to refer to anti-Jewishness only? Of course it is. Do I agree with it's mis-use and accept to help propagate it? Nope, no matter how much you implore that I'm wrong. It is ad populous to say "I am right because I think most other people think I am right," regardless of context, and if everyone suddenly agreed that "Bush" was a literal translation of "God's Divine Will on Earth," I would still stubbornly insist that that is incorrect. I imagine you might too.

And yes, I DO use the word bastard to refer to illegitimate children. But really now that it is slang thats no comparison, people expect "anti-Semitism" to be treated with respect. More respect, even, than normal racism. It's somehow worse to be "anti-Semitic" than it is to be anti-Negro, or at least the latter wasn't considered important enough to get it's very own, highly defended, incorrect term.
Chewbaccula
31-05-2005, 07:23
Don't get into this.
There is no idependent, contemporary evidence for the LIFE of Jesus, let alone for his death.
None at all.
The EARLIEST 'independent' account was written half a century later, by someone who wasn't even born at the time of the crucifixion.

Incredible that the most talked about person in the history of mankind, apparently now never existed... :rolleyes:
Stryfeland
31-05-2005, 08:00
The Jews are cool people - never met one I had the kind of undeniable desire to punch in the face, like the hyper-CHristians and hyper-Muslims. Even the real heavy Orthodox ones are pretty cool about most things - and hell, I don't have a problem with sticking to the text. It's when the text then starts to make ya do bad crap to other people (like previously stated Hyper-CHristians and Hyper-Muslims).

And to the gentleperson earlier who was blabbling about "Average 115 IQ"... do you really understand what IQ is or how it's measured or how it's used? I somehow think your parrotting something you heard elsewhere, which leads me to think you have no idea what the hell your saying.
The Holy Womble
31-05-2005, 08:06
Your grammar is good, but it seems that you lack skills in reading comprehension. I never said that Israel has an average I.Q. of 115. It has an average I.Q. of 94, by the way, since it's inhabited mainly by Sephardim, Mizrahim, Yemenites, Ethiopians, and Arabic "non-jews". Ashkenazim are much less than 50%. Indeed, I must be an ignorant, since you say so, disregarding the fact that you probably think that there are only (or mainly) two type of jews: "Ashkenazim and Sephardim". Way to fuel the fire, putz.
Puh-lease.

You see, my silly friend, I happened to live in Israel and I know the diversity of the Jewish sub-ethnicities far better than you do. There are Jewish groups the existence of which you aren't even aware of- the Indian Jews and the Chinese Jews (here's a nice riddle for you, btw: what do the Chinese Jews look like? ;)). People I work with are mostly Mizrahim and Ethiopean Jews- but I can bet any money that you don't even know what Ethiopean Jews look like. Or the Chinese Jews.

But the thing is, they all share common descent, and any historian worth his salt can confirm it. Because of the obligatory literacy and the tradition to "bury", rather than destroy or throw away, any document on which God's name is written, there remains plenty of historical documents through which the movement of the Jewish population around the world can be traced. Contrary to your claims, all Jewish communities spoke languages that were Hebrew based: Yiddish is a mix of Hebrew and medieval German, Ladino blends Hebrew with Spanish, Judeo-Arabic blends Hebrew with local Arab dialect, etc.- but the Hebrew component remained either way. If you knew a smalest bit of Yiddish beyond the "putz", you wouldn't make such idiotic claims. Hell, Yiddish even uses Hebrew alphabet, for crying out loud. Jews do share the same history, to the point that you can't even tell the difference between Ashkenazim and Sephardim among the European Jews. Tell me, Yiddnland, which sub-ethnic group do the Jews of Holland belong to? And the Jews of Bulgaria? Of France? Of Morocco?


Nobody would suggest a ridiculous notion that "a nation is based on blood"? Then what is a nation, dumbass? It seems that you also lack the ability to understand the different meanings of one word in different contexts.
A nation is not a race based construct but primarily a historical and a cultural one. Take some sociology classes, for God's sake.
The Holy Womble
31-05-2005, 08:12
And to the gentleperson earlier who was blabbling about "Average 115 IQ"... do you really understand what IQ is or how it's measured or how it's used? I somehow think your parrotting something you heard elsewhere, which leads me to think you have no idea what the hell your saying.
He is parroting the Stormfront Nazi wannabees, guaranteed. It is the only place where I have ever seen such claims being brought up. It's their lame attempt to link intellect with skin color.

And of course he doesn't understand what IQ is. His own IQ isn't enough for that ;)
All the Germans
31-05-2005, 08:39
It is perhaps that they confuse Jewish groups with Jewish individuals. Some Jewish individuals are good people and others are total assholes and jerks, which is true for every other type of people. I think its the despicable nature of some Jewish groups and leaders (that arrogant Sharon for example) that spreads anti-semitism. Personally, I think this is strategically stupid as these losers spend all their time expressing their hate for all Jews as a whole. If you want to express any hate or anger towards things that Jews have done, express to those certain Jews that did it. Its the same thing with any other group of people. A certain organisation or leader of that group may be less than good human being but that does not make the entirety of the people bad. Same with the Arabs. Some Arabs are devout, God-fearing, gold-hearted people and others are blasphemous, self-inflated terrorist murderers. That doesn't make Arab people as a whole bad by any means. Whether its minority, half or majority of the people who are "bad", it means not the entirety of that people are bad. If some liberal fanatic in France is angry with America because of Bush's alleged "mistakes", it would be stupid of them to express their anger againsts Americans as a whole rather than just towards Bush (of course there are those idiots who spend all their time expressing fanatic hate towards Bush but that's a whole different story). Just my little bit there.
Grave_n_idle
31-05-2005, 14:30
Incredible that the most talked about person in the history of mankind, apparently now never existed... :rolleyes:

Get over yourself.

ONE of the most talked about people.... you have no idea who talks about what... or what parallel that had with who DID talk about what.

Go back three thousand years and 'Horus' was a big deal, and nobody was talking about that 'Jesus' or 'Jehovah' at all.

Also - sorry to burst your bubble, friend... just ebcause someone talks about someone else... that's no guarantee of the 'reality' of the person discussed.

I have heard conversations about the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny.... oh, and Gandalf...

How many of them, would you say, are 'real'?
Ffc2
31-05-2005, 14:31
We're the chosen people, duh.

We're so beautiful that everyone hates us.you no longer are
Grave_n_idle
31-05-2005, 14:35
Because Europe is neither increasingly pacifist nor is it moving towards intermixture?

Pacifism is hard to measure, but Europe is definitely moving towards intermixture.

I lived in Leicester, in the UK... one of the old Roman towns... the heartland, if you will, of the 'english' stock.... by which, we might mean Anglo-Saxons with a bit of Norman thrown in.

About half a decade ago, that city was less than 50% 'white'... so, there is definitely an intermixture process... clearly visible - although perhaps slower in SOME places than others.
Competiters
31-05-2005, 14:36
well nothing BUT!!! whats good about them :confused:
Competiters
31-05-2005, 14:39
Jewish people taste really bad.

why what have you been doing to them to know that they taste really bad???
The Holy Womble
31-05-2005, 14:45
Pacifism is hard to measure, but Europe is definitely moving towards intermixture.

I lived in Leicester, in the UK... one of the old Roman towns... the heartland, if you will, of the 'english' stock.... by which, we might mean Anglo-Saxons with a bit of Norman thrown in.

About half a decade ago, that city was less than 50% 'white'... so, there is definitely an intermixture process... clearly visible - although perhaps slower in SOME places than others.
You are confusing intermixture with increased minority presence. Yes, the immigrant minorities are growing in numbers and influence- but the cultural tensions are escalating rather than calming.
No enemies
31-05-2005, 14:47
The whole world should be equal, ignoring race, culture or any other features that seperate people from others. Hatred of the jews is just a sick pack of scallies who think their hard by saying they hate jews. Jews are as human as any and to penalise them for their religion is just disgusting. Peace Out! :)
Grave_n_idle
31-05-2005, 14:50
You are confusing intermixture with increased minority presence. Yes, the immigrant minorities are growing in numbers and influence- but the cultural tensions are escalating rather than calming.

Not at all - I assume you have never visited Leicester?

It has some problems from time to time, as any city will... but, by and large it is embracing multi-culturalism.

It's like party season all the way from Diwali through to Chinese New Year...
Swelljethik
31-05-2005, 15:11
One day, I and my jewish friend were invited to a party on the front lawn of a man's house. There was a lot of good food there, and a lot of gentiles, so I figured that it wouldn't hurt to invite a few more of my friends to help balance the jewish / gentile balance. My friends were quite eager to join me. The host was kind, and left his house open so that any member of the gathering could enter the house and use the facilities at the party. As my friends and I looked through the house, it gradually became clear to us that God had brought me and my friends there for a reason. In the first place, this man's house was filled with christian images, which, quite frankly are an insult to everything jewish and holy.

Then suddenly a vision came to me, and I became very excited. I called my friends together (who had, in the meantime called their friends, and so on, until we had almost as many at the party as there were gentiles there). At a prearranged moment, we wandered into the house and started secretly locking all the windows and doors, and when the last gentile rejoined the party on the front lawn, we locked that door too. We then called even more of our friends, and began to make the house a more decent place to live.

When our friends arrived at this point, we told them to sneak in the back door, and we refused to let gentiles in at this point. It was great fun, but apparently the host could not take a joke, and soon it was revealed that he was an anti-semite. As my friends and I listened, he and the gentiles began hurling anti-semitic insults at us. We resolved then to teach him a lesson.

We got his video camera from his bedroom closet, and recorded his screaming slanderous diatribe, and then we transferred this scene into his computer, and mailed it to my uncle who works for the local TV station. In about one hour after that, he was able to play this on the local news channel. One of my gentile friend made copies of this broadcast, and came and knocked on a few doors in the neighborhood, and passed out copies of it. Pretty soon, all of the hosts neighbors came over to teach him not to be anti-semitic. HAHA

The governer of the state has been petitioned to pass this kind of speech as a hate crime law with severe penalties, and it is entirely possible that this man may now lose his house. I know that this is going a bit far, so I promise that if I end up owning it, I will have plenty of parties, and I will be sure to invite him, and his gentile friends over for laughter and fun. After all, how can we teach the gentiles good manners if we don't show them the way?

I, for one, will never hold anything against my gentile friends, and I sincerely hope that they will never hold anything against me.
Inzea
31-05-2005, 15:28
How many logical fallacies can you see in this passage regarding the Jewish people?

I dont think he's talking about the Jews specificly as he is talking about Israel as a country. In which case he's right.
Kreitzmoorland
31-05-2005, 15:43
One day, I and my jewish friend were invited to a party on the front lawn of a man's house. There was a lot of good food there, and a lot of gentiles, so I figured that it wouldn't hurt to invite a few more of my friends to help balance the jewish / gentile balance. My friends were quite eager to join me. The host was kind, and left his house open so that any member of the gathering could enter the house and use the facilities at the party. As my friends and I looked through the house, it gradually became clear to us that God had brought me and my friends there for a reason. In the first place, this man's house was filled with christian images, which, quite frankly are an insult to everything jewish and holy.

<snipage>

I, for one, will never hold anything against my gentile friends, and I sincerely hope that they will never hold anything against me.Oh how clever. It would take less effort to just say what you think next time, instead of comming up with an ellaborate allegory.
Sanctaphrax
31-05-2005, 15:47
Not at all - I assume you have never visited Leicester?

It has some problems from time to time, as any city will... but, by and large it is embracing multi-culturalism.

It's like party season all the way from Diwali through to Chinese New Year...
I lived there twelve years, the city absolutely *rules*!
In all fairness, the Muslim area built up around the Jewish Synagogue, but other than occasional problems there, the city is brilliant and has a really good atmosphere. w00t for Leicester!
The Holy Womble
31-05-2005, 15:59
Not at all - I assume you have never visited Leicester?

It has some problems from time to time, as any city will... but, by and large it is embracing multi-culturalism.

It's like party season all the way from Diwali through to Chinese New Year...
Don't know about Leicester, but I've been to Germany and I've read plenty about Holland. You must be comfising embracing with strangling ;)
Tarakaze
31-05-2005, 16:00
On the ‘Crist Killers’ thing - isn’t it that Christianity wouldn’t have existed in the first place if the so-called Messiah hadn’t been killed? It seems to me that they’re blaming the Jews for the Birth of their Religion, which is just plain wacky.


Christianity is 'suffering' a similar backlash at the moment, on a much smaller scale... due to thousands of years of tellign anyone that would listen that their 'gods' are imaginary, and they will all burn in hell. Serve ‘em right.

This is the problem that many Americans face when entering Europe in that Europeans see Americans as being ignorant and holding false stereotypes, which is of course a terrible generalisation. You do not go far in eradicating that view however with such blatant idiocy! Hear Hear!

Personally, i hate all religions. I normally dislike people who belive strongly in religions, any kind. I dislike Christianity, Islam and also Jewism. Hindu, nordic mythologi, greek mythologi and any mono/poly-theism. Why? If they aint affecting you with it, why worry? However, if they are affecting you with it...

Hell, Yiddish even uses Hebrew alphabet, for crying out loud. ... Most of Europe uses the same Alphabet...


Oh and Swelljethik? Why TF?
Kuehenberg
31-05-2005, 16:36
Well my grandfather was a german soldier, mind you an SS officer, he survived the war and that shit, he passed his knowledges to his son (my father) who was really impressed, though he knows we are in the 21st century and there is freedom and that crap, it gets even better my father married my mother whose father was another soldier (Wehrmacht this time) she wasn't as fanatic as my father, still she has her ideas, both of them tried to teach me of the aryan supremacy and shit yet they didn't count that i like to make my own opinion on such matters, i don't hate jews actually i know some of 'em pity because when they learn about my heritage they run away thinking i'm going to come with a group of fanatics to beat them up.

Sadly most of the jews that i know think they have enough money to buy the world, i hate those, that people makes countries chase them and execute them, their parents are such jackasses for god's sake well i hope to meet a nice jew one day, hope they stop feeling the "chosen people" and i hate what they are doing to palestinans, killing kids....
The Holy Womble
31-05-2005, 18:43
... Most of Europe uses the same Alphabet...
Yiddish doesn't use Latin letters, but Hebrew ones, although the function of some letters is somewhat altered.
Syniks
31-05-2005, 18:56
it's not impossible. trust me, I'm Jewish, I know. it's just you have to be sure. we don't want fakers!
Rabbi, Whack his Pee Pee! :D

I had a long and interesting discussion with a Rabbi once about why they spend so much time during "conversion classes" trying to convince the "convertee" that they are out of their minds...
Xandyzon
01-06-2005, 01:52
As a true student of westeren philosofi(i can't even spell it in english :P) I have learned this:
Life is beautiful. Without lows, there could be no highs, for with new highs, there would be new lows. Unless you plan on keeping it on a straight line, but if you do that, you will never experiance beauty.
Now i bet you're asking yourself what the hell this has to do with anything, and here goes:
Maybe, yes, some of us are racist. But without difference in cultur that people can acknowlege, there would no culur. To look away and see everyone as a whole, people lose identity. I have a friend who is polish. He celebrates christmas like they would in Poland(he is a atheist like me though:P), he can speak Polish, he even goes to Poland once every two months at the least. And taking that away from him and making him a average joe who lives in a apartment seeing TV and playing games on his computer, would kill him. Not litterally of course, but his soul will die.
So should we let go of a part of our identity, just because some morons with shaved heads don't like people?? Yeah, sure, you go ahead and do that. It will never happen to me.
-Xander
Crimson Sith
01-06-2005, 02:00
Well my grandfather was a german soldier, mind you an SS officer, he survived the war and that shit, he passed his knowledges to his son (my father) who was really impressed, though he knows we are in the 21st century and there is freedom and that crap, it gets even better my father married my mother whose father was another soldier (Wehrmacht this time) she wasn't as fanatic as my father, still she has her ideas, both of them tried to teach me of the aryan supremacy and shit yet they didn't count that i like to make my own opinion on such matters, i don't hate jews actually i know some of 'em pity because when they learn about my heritage they run away thinking i'm going to come with a group of fanatics to beat them up.

Sadly most of the jews that i know think they have enough money to buy the world, i hate those, that people makes countries chase them and execute them, their parents are such jackasses for god's sake well i hope to meet a nice jew one day, hope they stop feeling the "chosen people" and i hate what they are doing to palestinans, killing kids....

So you don't hate Jews, but you do? Um, okay. Also, if your grandfather was in the SS during World War II, then how old does that make you? Like forty something? There's something about this post that's really wrong...
Bmwx5
01-06-2005, 02:01
watch russel peters video then ull know why
Drakedia
01-06-2005, 02:19
One day, I and my jewish friend were invited to a party on the front lawn of a man's house. There was a lot of good food there, and a lot of gentiles, so I figured that it wouldn't hurt to invite a few more of my friends to help balance the jewish / gentile balance. My friends were quite eager to join me. The host was kind, and left his house open so that any member of the gathering could enter the house and use the facilities at the party. As my friends and I looked through the house, it gradually became clear to us that God had brought me and my friends there for a reason. In the first place, this man's house was filled with christian images, which, quite frankly are an insult to everything jewish and holy.

Hmm so because this guy has decided to put images of his religion around his house you feel the need to vandalize it with the rest of your jew crew that no one had invited anyway?

Then suddenly a vision came to me, and I became very excited. I called my friends together (who had, in the meantime called their friends, and so on, until we had almost as many at the party as there were gentiles there). At a prearranged moment, we wandered into the house and started secretly locking all the windows and doors, and when the last gentile rejoined the party on the front lawn, we locked that door too. We then called even more of our friends, and began to make the house a more decent place to live.

You seem pretty proud of yourself there, right up with Moses if you ask me.

When our friends arrived at this point, we told them to sneak in the back door, and we refused to let gentiles in at this point.

Yet the sentence "When our friends arrived at this point, we told them to sneak in the back door, and we refused to let the yids in at this point" is racist and evil...

It was great fun, but apparently the host could not take a joke, and soon it was revealed that he was an anti-semite. As my friends and I listened, he and the gentiles began hurling anti-semitic insults at us. We resolved then to teach him a lesson.

I'd be a pretty big anti-semite to at that point. How would you feel if a gang showed up at one of your parties, locked you out and proceeded to "redecorate" the place?


We got his video camera from his bedroom closet, and recorded his screaming slanderous diatribe, and then we transferred this scene into his computer, and mailed it to my uncle who works for the local TV station. In about one hour after that, he was able to play this on the local news channel. One of my gentile friend made copies of this broadcast, and came and knocked on a few doors in the neighborhood, and passed out copies of it. Pretty soon, all of the hosts neighbors came over to teach him not to be anti-semitic. HAHA

So rummaging through the guys things as well? Some might call that invasion of privacy. HAHA indeed..

The governer of the state has been petitioned to pass this kind of speech as a hate crime law with severe penalties, and it is entirely possible that this man may now lose his house. I know that this is going a bit far, so I promise that if I end up owning it, I will have plenty of parties, and I will be sure to invite him, and his gentile friends over for laughter and fun. After all, how can we teach the gentiles good manners if we don't show them the way?

And you victimizing this man for his Christianity is not a hate crime because...?

I, for one, will never hold anything against my gentile friends, and I sincerely hope that they will never hold anything against me.

Oh so you'll leave it at vandalizing their houses and blaspheming against their religion? How would you feel if a gang of Christians showed up uninvited at one of your hanukah (I really couldn't care less if I spelled that wrong) parties and decided they weren't such big fans of your menorah or talmud? I guess that would be a hate crime...


Well my grandfather was a german soldier, mind you an SS officer

Do you know what unit?