NationStates Jolt Archive

Well the French have rejected the EU constitution (I believe it was 55% against) and so France has actually struck a grievous blow against the folly it created.

This vote is probably a protest against Chiraque and his government: afterall the Prime Minister has banned all bank holidays so there are no more three day weekends and the unemployment is quite high there at the moment: twice of that of Britain. However despite this, the EU has been dealt a blow when the nation who have most to do with its creation have refused to ratify their constitution.

Many commentators here have been saying that it is crunch time for the EU - it is likely that the Prime Minister will have to meet his fellow EU leaders to discuss this (and it is likely that Chiraque will foist a great deal of the blame on Blair, by the way) by tommorow. The EU won't collapse today - but will it collapse as more nations see France's example and follow it?

Belgium votes on Wednesday and early indicators are already pointing to a firm "No" vote there. Britain was always going to vote no anyway but this is only made the event more likely.

So is this just a momentary step back for the EU? Or is it a full blown
its-time-for-the-cyanide-Meine-Fuhrer situation?

Its a "Non"! - Is the EU in crisis?

I hope so :D

I hope so :D

Motion seconded.

DEATH TO COFFEE SHOP INTELLECTUALS!

The EU has been through hardships earlier. This is a momentary setback. The EU will go on.

The EU has been through hardships earlier. This is a momentary setback. The EU will go on.

Sure it will.

Well the French have rejected the EU constitution (I believe it was 55% against) and so France has actually struck a grievous blow against the folly it created.

This vote is probably a protest against Chiraque and his government: afterall the Prime Minister has banned all bank holidays so there are no more three day weekends and the unemployment is quite high there at the moment: twice of that of Britain. However despite this, the EU has been dealt a blow when the nation who have most to do with its creation have refused to ratify their constitution.

Many commentators here have been saying that it is crunch time for the EU - it is likely that the Prime Minister will have to meet his fellow EU leaders to discuss this (and it is likely that Chiraque will foist a great deal of the blame on Blair, by the way) by tommorow. The EU won't collapse today - but will it collapse as more nations see France's example and follow it?

Belgium votes on Wednesday and early indicators are already pointing to a firm "No" vote there. Britain was always going to vote no anyway but this is only made the event more likely.

So is this just a momentary step back for the EU? Or is it a full blown
its-time-for-the-cyanide-Meine-Fuhrer situation?
The EU is gone!
NON!
(tomorow is the Spring Bank Holidy, UK)

Isn't the whole point of the constitution though to move towards a political merger, which wasn't really the intent of many of the nations in the EU. There is a big difference between opening borders and financial markets and accepting one governing body, which is where the constitution is headed. As little as I am a fan of France, they voted wisely this time... your thoughts?

I'm against any sort of situation where one's country surrenders its soveriegnty to a higher power (like many European nations are doing with the EU). While I have issues with France and Chriac, I commend the French people for voting 'Non!' and striking a blow to the folly that is the EU

Don't you who are Europeans just LOVE all the smug, gloating Americans laughing at your misfortunes? (BTW, I'm an American, I just have better ways to spend my time than insulting other countries for the hell of it). It's real easy to sit there 3000 miles away and say "I told you so", isn't it?

Don't you who are Europeans just LOVE all the smug, gloating Americans laughing at your misfortunes? (BTW, I'm an American, I just have better ways to spend my time than insulting other countries for the hell of it). It's real easy to sit there 3000 miles away and say "I told you so", isn't it?

You assume that this is a misfortune. You also assume that we care. That's silly.

Why is it that you people are against the EU? And what country are you from?
The French voted no apparently for two reasons:
a)
They are scared that cheap labour from the East is going to hurt their workers. That's fair enough, as we are in the middle of Globalisation, and wages and conditions will naturally converge somewhat, constitution or not. Also, that was the reason the French (and the Germans, don't forget them...) started the EU, so that there can be one common market that would benefit most people.
As far as I can tell, the constitution was mainly about streamlining the political process, not so much about economic things.
b)
They don't want economic liberalism ("like in America", said one lady interviewed). They're afraid that the reform policies that need to be done to remain competitive (Thatcher anyone?), and that are obviously of great importance to the EU are going to change conditions in France.
One could see why they'd think that, but it's gotta be done nonetheless. 60 years of a great social support network and worker's rights are a good thing, but nowadays they aren't sustainable.
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The Constitution was started to get rid of the very things anti-EU people criticise about it: too much bureaucracy and too little democracy. Why you guys oppose it is beyond me, unless it's only because of last-century nostalgia for a time when a single European country could claim itself to be a world power.
That's over, people. There's never gonna be another French, German or, yes, even British Empire. We're all gonna be eaten alive by your preferred enemy (USA, China, evil terrorists, New Zealanders...), unless we stand together and use the 200million people, $8 trillion GDP zone that we have here.
---------------------
But all in all, I don't think it's in crisis. They'll rework it and try again, and start off with a huge marketing campaign to push it through. It's gonna take maybe another two years, but we've been working on it for half a century, and we're gonna get through that one too.
Whether you want to be a part of it or not.

Let this be a lesson in federalism to the smug pseudo-intellectual euro-trash who consistently spout such ill-informed rubbish as, "the US political spectrum has no 'real' left" and other such hogwash.

It's amazing how conservative people can become when dealing with issues on a federal "mega-block" level.

Why is it that you people are against the EU? And what country are you from?
The French voted no apparently for two reasons:
a)Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah.
and
b)Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah. Blah.Blah.
Who cares why they voted...what counts is the result...the EU is now a laughing stock.

USA feels better today.

OK, enough of the flaming OD, please :)

Let this be a lesson in federalism to the smug pseudo-intellectual euro-trash who consistently spout such ill-informed rubbish as, "the US political spectrum has no 'real' left" and other such hogwash.

The US does lack a real left.

It's amazing how conservative people can become when dealing with issues on a federal "mega-block" level.

The left was pretty much against this. The right wasn't (discounting Front National, but they're more populist than anything else, really).

Who cares why they voted...what counts is the result...the EU is now a laughing stock.

USA feels better today.

And why don't you like the EU?
Why, is America afraid of us, or what is it?
Also, I don't think it's a laughing stock. The people who would laugh about it live in Alabama and are too busy learning about God than to even get news about that the vote even happened.

The US does lack a real left.

You only say that because what you know of US politics is confined to the Federal level. There are quite a lot of left wing politicians at the local and state level in the US. Federalism distorts things. People get parochial and conservative when it comes to these matters. Just look at the distortion between in state/out of state tution and funding for higher education as well as residency requirements.

The left was pretty much against this. The right wasn't (discounting Front National, but they're more populist than anything else, really).

Despite it being a conservative position. It's very difficult to be a commited leftist at the federal level. Makes for bad hair days &c.

someone tell me this......and no this is by no means an attack, but a genuine question: Per my prior post, I agree the no vote on the constitution was wise for the French, who don't want to be under the all-encompassing constitution of Europe. However, what does this say for the Euro-economy? The EU has survived as a trading pact, similar to NAFTA or the Pacific Rim aliance, that doesn't appear to be changing... Is there word in Europe that the EU could reasonably be breaking apart after this? Even if Belgium says NO, which they should, again this shouldn't change the economic pact.. Let me know if I am wrong...

someone tell me this......and no this is by no means an attack, but a genuine question: Per my prior post, I agree the no vote on the constitution was wise for the French, who don't want to be under the all-encompassing constitution of Europe. However, what does this say for the Euro-economy? The EU has survived as a trading pact, similar to NAFTA or the Pacific Rim aliance, that doesn't appear to be changing... Is there word in Europe that the EU could reasonably be breaking apart after this? Even if Belgium says NO, which they should, again this shouldn't change the economic pact.. Let me know if I am wrong...

I don't think they have the external pressure required to force federalism upon them. They can probably continue as a trading block until a signifigant external problem requires them to change.

You only say that because what you know of US politics is confined to the Federal level. There are quite a lot of left wing politicians at the local and state level in the US. Federalism distorts things. People get parochial and conservative when it comes to these matters. Just look at the distortion between in state/out of state tution and funding for higher education as well as residency requirements.

A de facto two party system leaves for very little leeway when it comes to moving to the left in the US.

Despite it being a conservative position. It's very difficult to be a commited leftist at the federal level. Makes for bad hair days &c.

Economically you could call it a classically "conservative" stance, but it isn't conservative in the American sense. You are trying to apply the American notion of "conservatism" on the EU, and it just doesn't work that way. So saying "you get conservative" on the federal level isn't really saying much at all, unless you specify what you mean by conservative. In fact, them being "commited leftists" is what made the parties on the left reject the Constitution. The "commited" leftyness is what the Constitution owes its demise to.

A de facto two party system leaves for very little leeway when it comes to moving to the left in the US.

Which assumes that the national parties bear all that close a realtionship to the local ones. Which isn't true. There are some openly ex-communists and communist sympathizers on my city council. Some Socialists in the state legistlature &c. But as I said, when you start talking about the federal level, people lose interesting in "sharing". I have no doubt that this is what did the European constitution in.

Economically you could call it a classically "conservative" stance, but it isn't conservative in the American sense. You are trying to apply the American notion of "conservatism" on the EU, and it just doesn't work that way. So saying "you get conservative" on the federal level isn't really saying much at all, unless you specify what you mean by conservative. In fact, them being "commited leftists" is what made the parties on the left reject the Constitution. The "commited" leftyness is what the Constitution owes its demise to.

I meant conservative in the anglo-american sense of opposing change. Is that wrong? Surely as a matter of social justice for *all* europeans, this constitution would have benefited the disadvantaged in the poorer countries and areas. At any rate, it was touted as an improvement over the status quo.

Which assumes that the national parties bear all that close a realtionship to the local ones. Which isn't true. There are some openly ex-communists and communist sympathizers on my city council. Some Socialists in the state legistlature &c. But as I said, when you start talking Despite it being about the federal level, people lose interesting in "sharing". I have no doubt that this is what did the European constitution in.

Going into microscopy, you can find any sort of example of anything (there are a few city councils in Sweden that have nazis in them; doesn't mean jack for Swedish politics in general even when you come to the level of the "kommuner" and slightly higher, the "län"). Interesting how you don't mention state level in the US - even there the absence of a real left makes its mark known.

I meant conservative in the anglo-american sense of opposing change. Is that wrong? Surely as a matter of social justice for *all* europeans, this constitution would have benefited the disadvantaged in the poorer countries and areas. At any rate, it was touted as an improvement over the status quo.

Then the comparison with the US becomes even less plausible, especially as you were claiming that it was hard to be a "comitted leftist" on a federal scale, were such to exist, in Europe.

I hope not, the EU is one of the best things going. By the by, is it not a bit hypocritical for an Swede to boast about the EU when they reject the Euro and common economic policies. The EU is much more committed to Environmental policies than the US, and a little thing called health care, and taking care of its citizens.

Going into microscopy, you can find any sort of example of anything (there are a few city councils in Sweden that have nazis in them; doesn't mean jack for Swedish politics in general even when you come to the level of the "kommuner" and slightly higher, the "län"). Interesting how you don't mention state level in the US - even there the absence of a real left makes its mark known.

There are more people in my city than there are people in some countries in Europe.

My state has two and a half times the population of Sweden. I hardly think that is microscopy. I thought I mentioned the state level. There are socialists in the state legislature.

(Not in texas granted, but up here there are quite a few.)

Then the comparison with the US becomes even less plausible, especially as you were claiming that it was hard to be a "comitted leftist" on a federal scale, were such to exist, in Europe.

Of course it is, people loose interest in left wing politics on such mega-scales. They typically better off units are pushed into a situation where they have absolutely nothing to gain, so people stop voting that way.

You wouldn't vote for a measure that would send 90% of Sweden's welfare fund to Hungary, would you. That's the problem.

One of our politicians once said it best. "All politics is local."

Who cares why they voted...what counts is the result...the EU is now a laughing stock.

USA feels better today.

That’s nice, but unlike the USA, our currency isn’t down the pan, and our welfare system isn’t collapsing around us.

Yes… The EU is laughing……)

(Member of the United Kingdom)

Far more of a threat to the EU is the continued lack of fiscal discipline on the part of certain large nations (::cough:: France and Germany ::cough:: ) while the EU is threatening sanctions against less popular/smaller nations, like Italy, for a lack of fiscal discipline. If Italy is sanctioned for violating deficit limits while Germany continues to do wo without sanction, that will be a crisis to the EU.

It (the rejection f the EU constitution) could have been a crises if politicians had not seen the writing on the wall several months ago and had continued to present the EU constitution as a defining document of the EU. It wasn't originally intended as defining document, wasn't written (for the most part) that way and only became so due to a political (mis-?)calculation that selling it as a defining document of the EU was good for the EU, something that they realized was a poor idea when rejection became a possibility. An adverted crisis, rejection merely means that the EU doesn't have a written contitution, big deal, the Brits have managed without one for going on a millenia now and seem to have a stable government.

People, it's democracy;
The legislators will rework the constitution, fix what the French didn't like, and it goes to the vote again, probably next year. This isn't the end of the EU, just a setback; the constitution will be back.

You assume that this is a misfortune. You also assume that we care. That's silly.

No, I was assuming you don't care -- that's my point. Most Americans don't give a f--- what happens to their neighbors, much less to other countries. When something goes wrong, though, we laugh as if we had all the answers.

DEATH TO COFFEE SHOP INTELLECTUALS!
DEATH TO COFFEE SHOPS!

So what happens without the EU Constitution? Does the EU just remain a modern form of the Common Market? If so, it doesn't look like any big deal. Just the awakening of Europeans to the hazards of surrendering their sovereignty to a bunch of bureaucrats.

By the way...We told you so!

snip
Belgium votes on Wednesday and early indicators are already pointing to a firm "No" vote there.
That's nice, only thing is that the Belgians won't vote at all. :rolleyes:

That's nice, only thing is that the Belgians won't vote at all. :rolleyes:
he is confuse between chocolate and cheese.

That’s nice, but unlike the USA, our currency isn’t down the pan, the Lost referendum will strike the EU markets and the Euro...the US dollar will gain...

So what happens without the EU?The EU has friends and enemies in every single European country...

all the enemies of the will now rigthfully point to the French referendum and say look...the Key Founders of the EU have rejected the their own baby...why should we back it now???

and its a very legitimate question...

I say France has to pay the price...and his leading role be taken away...

the Lost referendum will strike the EU markets and the Euro...the US dollar will gain...

Good thing I’m British then, the pound will always be strong :p , but seriously, the Dollar really needs to improve.

Well the French have rejected the EU constitution (I believe it was 55% against) and so France has actually struck a grievous blow against the folly it created.

[ snippage ]

So is this just a momentary step back for the EU? Or is it a full blown
its-time-for-the-cyanide-Meine-Fuhrer situation?
I view it as a temporary setback, not a death knell.

I suspect that those who drafted the EU Constitution need to go back to the drawing board and craft a better proposal, perhaps one at least partially modeled on the US Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights. BTW ... the Bill of Rights was added later as amendments after a number of citizens expressed dismay at their absence.

I'd hope the EU members recraft the Constitution and actually give religion a mention this time. Simply from a historical perspective, Christianity has shaped Europe into the continent it is. Ignoring that Christian heritage is absurd.

I'd hope the EU members recraft the Constitution and actually give religion a mention this time. Simply from a historical perspective, Christianity has shaped Europe into the continent it is. Ignoring that Christian heritage is absurd.

Most definitely not. We have secular, multi-cultural societies (especially here in France), and there is no reason whatsoever for religion to be a part of any EU Constitution.

OK, what is see in this thread is a serious misunderstanding of EU constitution... Well, it was ment to replace 5 founding documents of the EU and take it to a new level, it does NOT take 90% of swedish money and give it to lets say my country Slovenia. Btw, EU allready has development programs for new member states (and also for older 15).

Now if you think that this is a start of a EU collaps, well i can't put it nicely either you are an idiot or don't know anything about EU. The 5 founding documents are still in place untill all countries accept the constitution. That means that EU will countinue to work as it does.

So frech (although I did not expect that from them) said no, well big deal, we don't have a EU constitution... so what?

And it is takeing only a very small amout of sovereignty from the countries.

So next time before you start with your predictions of collaps, research what are you talking about.

The US does lack a real left.


You must have not been made familiar with Dennis Kucinich then. :)

As for the French, well, that's what happens when you let people vote on things. They don't always go the way you want.

I view it as a temporary setback, not a death knell.

I suspect that those who drafted the EU Constitution need to go back to the drawing board and craft a better proposal, perhaps one at least partially modeled on the US Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights. BTW ... the Bill of Rights was added later as amendments after a number of citizens expressed dismay at their absence.

Certainly it isnt the death knell of the EU, hell, if you read a bit, you will find that many of those that supported the "non" were the first to say that they believed in further integration in the EU.

This is democracy working, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. This constitution seems to be on a loosing streak, but if the text is scrapped, its okay. Because though we may lose a text, we have won a discussion that already shakes Europe.. people are talking about this, about what they want for Europe, the people are making their voice heard. And there can be no loss for the EU if its people make themselves heard.

More than the text of the constitution, people seem to have rejected the patronizing way in which our politicians have drafted the text. Next revisions will be made more slowly, more carefully, and more in tune with the wishes of the population. How can that be bad? Sure, this will have a price.. for a while, the EU will reach a full stop in its construction process, but perhaps it is a necessary stop, one that allows us to set our future course.

I will vote Yes for this constitution in my country, in time, even knowing that it wont be approved by the EU as a whole. After all, i don't feel a bit threatened by the rejection of this treaty. I just came to realize that there are people that like me, are fond of the concept of the European Union, they just see things differently of I. And now, we must work togheter. Again.. what is the problem of that?

Certainly it isnt the death knell of the EU, hell, if you read a bit, you will find that many of those that supported the "non" were the first to say that they believed in further integration in the EU.

This is democracy working, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. This constitution seems to be on a loosing streak, but if the text is scrapped, its okay. Because though we may lose a text, we have won a discussion that already shakes Europe.. people are talking about this, about what they want for Europe, the people are making their voice heard. And there can be no loss for the EU if its people make themselves heard.


Indeed. The No-vote was massively a pro-European vote, and this referendum brought the EU into the domain of public debate, and people here in France took a great interest in the whole question, and in what the EU should be. The EU is very much alive, and definitely has a future if the people have anything to do with it.

Well the French have rejected the EU constitution (I believe it was 55% against) and so France has actually struck a grievous blow against the folly it created.

This vote is probably a protest against Chiraque and his government: afterall the Prime Minister has banned all bank holidays so there are no more three day weekends and the unemployment is quite high there at the moment: twice of that of Britain. However despite this, the EU has been dealt a blow when the nation who have most to do with its creation have refused to ratify their constitution.

Many commentators here have been saying that it is crunch time for the EU - it is likely that the Prime Minister will have to meet his fellow EU leaders to discuss this (and it is likely that Chiraque will foist a great deal of the blame on Blair, by the way) by tommorow. The EU won't collapse today - but will it collapse as more nations see France's example and follow it?

Belgium votes on Wednesday and early indicators are already pointing to a firm "No" vote there. Britain was always going to vote no anyway but this is only made the event more likely.

So is this just a momentary step back for the EU? Or is it a full blown
its-time-for-the-cyanide-Meine-Fuhrer situation?

It's not that big a deal. France was a founding member of NATO too-and bailed early in the alliance, so it's something the EU has (or should have) some experience with.
A few changes, and they'll ratify a more or less improved document. The one they voted down was too complicated and not really flexible enough as a Constitution anyway. At the worst, it will prevent the majority of the other EU nations from adopting something that may apply today, but won't be useful in twenty years.

Indeed. The No-vote was massively a pro-European vote...
...
War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength.
Hate is Love.
No means Yes.

...
War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength.
Hate is Love.
No means Yes.

... And a witty said proves nothing :)