NationStates Jolt Archive

1) during the occupation of Montecassino in the 9th century “the Muslims amused themselves by sacrificing each night the virginity of a nun. Do you know where? On the altar of the cathedral.”

2) while occupying Constantinople in 1453, the Turks led by Mohammed II “decapitated even newborns. And extinguished candles with their little heads.”

3) “In a woman the Koran sees above all a womb to give birth.”

4) “In the dream that the sons of Allah have been nurturing for years, the dream of blowing up Giotto’s Tower or the Tower of Pisa or the cupola of St. Peter’s or the Eiffel Tower or Westminster Abbey or the cathedral of Cologne and so on . . .”

5) “…halal butchery is barbarous” just as “shechita butchery is barbarous. That is, the Jewish version which is carried out in the same way and consists of slitting the animals’ throats without dazing them.”

6) France is a country “where Islamic racism, that is the hatred of the infidel-dogs, reigns supreme and is never put on trial, never punished. Where the Muslims declare openly: “We must take advantage of the democratic space that France offers us, we must exploit democracy, that is, make use of it to occupy territory.” Where not a few of them add: “In Europe the Nazi position was not understood. Or not by all. It was judged a vehicle of homicidal folly, when actually Hitler was a great man.”

7) for Muslims “biology is a shameless science because it is occupied with the human body and sex.”

8) “ . . . we will have to resign ourselves to the yoke of a creed that . . . instead of love spreads hatred and instead of liberty slavery.”

9) “a Right and a Left . . . that (in Italy) are both on the side of the enemy (Islam).”

10) the demands of the Islamics with regard to school curricula mean that in literature classes “we will not be allowed to include for example The Divine Comedy . . .nor the Canticle of Creatures nor the Sacred Hymns of Alessandra Manzoni . . .” etc. etc.

11) “ . . . the uncouth wailing of the muezzin . . .”

12) the terrorist attacks of the last twenty years have caused six thousand deaths “to the glory of the Koran. In obedience to its verses.”

13) “Our Jesus of Nazareth . . . they put him in their Danna where he eats like Trimalchio, drinks like a drunkard, screws like a sexual maniac.”

14) “. . . the revolting, reactionary, obtuse, feudal Right is found today only in Islam. It is Islam.”

15) infibulation is “the mutilation that the Muslims force on little girls to prevent them, once they are grown . . . from enjoying the sexual act. It is a female castration that the Muslims practice in twenty-eight countries of Islamic Africa and because of which two million persons die each year from sepsis or loss of blood . . .”

16) the Italians afflicted by atavistic loss of pride “are not offended when Islamic immigrants urinate on their monuments or soil the sacristies of their churches or toss their crucifixes out the window of a hospital.”

17) “. . . Islam is a pond. And a pond is a trough of stagnant water. . . it is never purified . . . it is easily polluted, like a watering hole for livestock of little value. The pond does not love life: It loves death . . .”

18) “ . . .despite the massacres through which the sons of Allah have bloodied us and bloodied themselves for over thirty years, the war that Islam has declared against the West . . . is a cultural war. . .they kill us in order to bend us. To intimidate us . . . Their goal is not to fill cemeteries. Not to destroy our skyscrapers . . . It is to destroy our soul, our ideas. Our feelings and our dreams. It is to subjugate the West once again.”

From Here (http://cmnewman.blogspot.com/2005/05/18-things-you-cant-say-about-muslims.html)


Wasn't the EU supposed to incorporate free speech? Or is Italy supposed to be exempt?


Although I do disagree with number 14, as it is also found in parts of Utah and also various locales in Africa and Asia.

Welcome to Pee Cee land, baby.

Obviously this doesn't refer to real muslims.

Obviously this doesn't refer to real muslims.
What's a real Muslim?

What's a real Muslim?
Someone who doesn't use believe as an excuse for violence and hate.

Someone who doesn't use believe as an excuse for violence and hate.

Are the suicide bombers who target civilians Moslems?

Someone who doesn't use believe as an excuse for violence and hate.

True, the Quran says (from wikipedia)

That war is strictly forbidden unless the enemy engages first.

Those that deny this obvioudly haven't read a Quran, or are just a real dumbass.

I just love it when people of a particular religion say that the terrorists/crusaders/whatever aren't real (inseert religion).

What's a real Muslim?

I am.

I am.
really?

This is the first document I've ever read about the topic of Islam in Italy. What about Cubans in Canada?

I just love it when people of a particular religion say that the terrorists/crusaders/whatever aren't real (inseert religion).
I don't do religion, but I believe most are based on peaceful principles. Some people just like to add their own sick values.

@Sabbatis: read the line you quoted and the answer shall reveal itself.

really?

I believe so, though al-Qaeda may disagree with me.

I figure the only true authority as to whom or what a true Muslim is would be Qur'an.

That war is strictly forbidden unless the enemy engages first.

Define engage. One could easily say that those who prosetilyse their religion and are not islamic could be seen as engaging in a fight against islam. And the quran most certainly doesn't state anything about once being engaged to not escalate.

This is the first document I've ever read about the topic of Islam in Italy. What about Cubans in Canada?
This is related to the Italian government prosecuting an italian living in New York for writing a book with the preceding phrases in it.

Many European nations don't have the same codified protection of free speech that the US does. They can therefore punish hate speech with impunity. Apparently the Italian government thought the book was hate speech.

This is related to the Italian government prosecuting an italian living in New York for writing a book with the preceding phrases in it.Is this about Oriana Fallaci's book?

Is this about Oriana Fallaci's book?


Yes

Apparently the Italian government thought the book was hate speech.

I think I'm gonna have to agree with the Italian government on this one, if that's the case. Not only is it inflammatory, but it's a lot of lies and misinformation.

I think I'm gonna have to agree with the Italian government on this one, if that's the case. Not only is it inflammatory, but it's a lot of lies and misinformation.A- Why shouldn't hate speech be protected?

B- Oriana Fallaci is one of the greatest news reporters alive, not some extremist wacko from Utah. I'd say her words carry weight.

C- There's also a lot of PC disinformation going around in left-leaning circles in America and all of Europe. There are moderate, modernist muslims of course, but when looking at a- islam today as a whole, b- the history of islam and c- the texts of islam you realise that it is a religion and a culture which relies on ruthless dictatorship at home, and warlike expansion outward. All religions have resorted to violence at some point and done or sanctioned some pretty horrible things. Islam is the only major world religion to have relied on violence consistently as a policy to expand and maintain itself.

...Let the flames begin!

Define engage. One could easily say that those who prosetilyse their religion and are not islamic could be seen as engaging in a fight against islam. And the quran most certainly doesn't state anything about once being engaged to not escalate.
A muslim quoted the Quran for me once... the passage was something like "he who fights in the name of Allah, fights for himself. Allah does not need him to fight His battles"

Many European nations don't have the same codified protection of free speech that the US does. They can therefore punish hate speech with impunity. Apparently the Italian government thought the book was hate speech.
It's shocking, I know. Racist speech is actually illegal in many places, although that's rarely enforced.

I think I'm gonna have to agree with the Italian government on this one, if that's the case. Not only is it inflammatory, but it's a lot of lies and misinformation.
Never trust the italian government on anything concerning law cases. They're still trying to charge Lance Armstong with something and have a warrant out for his arrest should he ever go to Italy. Thing is, they won't say what the charges are. I would assume they have something to do with the allegations against him about whether or not he uses EPO as a performance enhancer.

A- Why shouldn't hate speech be protected?

B- Oriana Fallaci is one of the greatest news reporters alive, not some extremist wacko from Utah. I'd say her words carry weight.

C- There's also a lot of PC disinformation going around in left-leaning circles in America and all of Europe. There are moderate, modernist muslims of course, but when looking at a- islam today as a whole, b- the history of islam and c- the texts of islam you realise that it is a religion and a culture which relies on ruthless dictatorship at home, and warlike expansion outward. All religions have resorted to violence at some point and done or sanctioned some pretty horrible things. Islam is the only major world religion to have relied on violence consistently as a policy to expand and maintain itself.

...Let the flames begin!

A- Why should it be?

B- If you say so.

C- No flames, just offer proof. Show me any passage from Qur'an that commands me, as a Muslim, to be hateful, spiteful, warlike, or violent. Also explain to me how I was converted at sword point.

A- Why should it be?

B- If you say so.

C- No flames, just offer proof. Show me any passage from Qur'an that commands me, as a Muslim, to be hateful, spiteful, warlike, or violent. Also explain to me how I was converted at sword point.

That's right, you believe that book. Seriously, some dude on a camel writes down something in his note book, and you call it holy? My copy of Hustler is sacred then too I guess.

That's right, you believe that book. Seriously, some dude on a camel writes down something in his note book, and you call it holy? My copy of Hustler is sacred then too I guess.
Don't badmouth the words of the prophet Larry Flynt (PBUH).

A- Why should it be?

Alright, I don't like hate speech, but it's a part of free speech and must be allowed. I thought you were a civil libertarian. Free speech cannot be confined to ideas that you agree with.

Alright, I don't like hate speech, but it's a part of free speech and must be allowed. I thought you were a civil libertarian. Free speech cannot be confined to ideas that you agree with.

True! However, I also don't believe in government interference on such matters. It really shouldn't be protected or not protected. People should simply have to face the consequences of their actions.

That's right, you believe that book. Seriously, some dude on a camel writes down something in his note book, and you call it holy? My copy of Hustler is sacred then too I guess.

I don't think Muhammed was on a camel at the time, but I know Larry Flynt has been on one. :D

Alright, I don't like hate speech, but it's a part of free speech and must be allowed. I thought you were a civil libertarian. Free speech cannot be confined to ideas that you agree with.

He's a liar.

I don't think Muhammed was on a camel at the time, but I know Larry Flynt has been on one. :D


Well yeah Muhammed was, he kept his gum moist in the camels foreskin, while he was busy molesting young girls.

BTW-I'll provide proof upon request.

True! However, I also don't believe in government interference on such matters. It really shouldn't be protected or not protected. People should simply have to face the consequences of their actions.
I agree that people should not be protected from verbal criticism, but do you include among "facing the consequences", violence that goes unpunished?

I think I'm gonna have to agree with the Italian government on this one, if that's the case. Not only is it inflammatory, but it's a lot of lies and misinformation.

So you'd support bans on books inflammatory towards Christians too, I presume?

Well yeah Muhammed was, he kept his gum moist in the camels foreskin, while he was busy molesting young girls.

That's right, you believe that book. Seriously, some dude on a camel writes down something in his note book, and you call it holy? My copy of Hustler is sacred then too I guess.
You may think this sort of flamebait-trolling stuff is most amusing, but others of us have gotten really tired of it. If you and Keruvalia want to bait each other about Islam, do it somewhere else. Permanently. If you come back with more of the same sort of envelope-pushing commentary, I will have no hesitation in asking Admin for a DoS order and an IP ban.

The Motor City Madmen, forumbanned two weeks, flamebaiting.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator
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C- No flames, just offer proof. Show me any passage from Qur'an that commands me, as a Muslim, to be hateful, spiteful, warlike, or violent. Also explain to me how I was converted at sword point.


"Prescribed for you is fighting, though it be hateful to you." Qur'an II 216

"Fight for those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden - such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book - until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humbled" - Qur'an IX 29

"And fight the unbelievers totally even as they fight you totally; and know that God is with the godfearing." Qur'an IX 36

From Islam and the Crusades, Jonathan Riley-Smith, Oxford University

"Jihad, which is commonly translated as "holy war", literally means "striving": that is striving to advance Islam. According to traditional Sunni Muslim doctrine, leadership of the holy war to extend the territories of Islam was vested in the caliph. In the eighth and ninth centuries it had been one of the duties of the Abbasid caliph to direct the jihad. Harun al-Rashid, for example, led his troops against the Byzantines every other year, converting by the sword; in the alternate years, he led the haj, or pilgrimage to Mecca. Jihads were also launched in the eastern lands against the pagan Turks and central Asia as well as against idolatrous Hindus in northern India. Volunteers for these and other holy wars were known as ghazis. They fought in the expectation of booty and, if they fell in the course of campaigning, they were assured of the status of martyrs."

The idea of jihad was formalized in the Kitab al-Jihad in 1105. All of the rules of jihad for Sunnis can be found in the Barh al-Fava'id, or "Sea of Precious Virtues". There are two kinds of jihad - an interior jihad against one's own moral flaws, and an external jihad against the infidel.

Within external jihad, there is offensive and defensive jihad. Offensive jihad is a collective duty imposed on Sunni Muslims to extend Muslim territory by force of arms. Some may wish to take part - but all are obliged to support it with money and approbation. If you are able-bodied, you have no choice in the matter.

For those who say, "well, it's not in the Koran" you are going against centuries of practice. You have to be one of several types of Muslim within the Islamic heterodoxy - you cannot, as many Westerners assume, pick and choose what you like and don't like about Islam.

Shias were also forcibly converted by threat of military force and execution.

Sunni Muslims take their name from the Sunna, or words and deeds of the Prophet Muhammed and his Companions, a body of orally transmitted traditions which helped shape both Islamic law (the Sharia) and the conduct of individual Muslims (other documents that cannot be ignored at will by adherents of Islam). Sunni Muslims recognized the supreme political authority of the caliphs, even though this authority was (in the aftermath of Muhammed) a legalistic fiction.

Osama bin Laden, and some of his supporters, see him as the Caliph.

In this they differ from Shi'i Muslims who hold that the ultimate religious and political authority could only be held by 'Ali, the Prophet's son-in-law, and then by the imams who were his descendants and spiritual successors. Shi'a 'Ali means the Party of Ali. One major group of Shi'is holds that after the disappearance, or occultation, of the twelfth imam in 878, ultimate spiritual authority was in abeyance. Twelver Shi'is waited for the return of the Hidden Imam, and with his coming the imposition of Islamic justice on the whole world. However, another group of Shi'is, the Isma'ilis, held that it ws after the disappearance in 760 of Isma'il, whom they regarded as the rightful seventh Imam, that the imamate had gone into occultation. In the course of the eleventh century, there were further schisms, as first the Druze and then the Nizari Isma'ilis (or Assassins) broke away from and opposed the pretentions of the Isma'ili Fatimid caliphate in Cairo.

I could go on. Shi'is were constantly through history converted by the sword to Sunni Islam. As were Christians of various sorts (not that the Franks were without their own form of blame during the Crusades).

There are many other documents, which form the underpinning of Sunni belief, which hold violent, offensive jihad as a holy ideal. It is NOT possible to be a Sunni and ignore these documents, saying, "I only believe in the Koran."

In Shi'i theology, only the imam may call for offensive jihad, and since the imam is in occultation, this duty is in abeyance until the Last Days, when he returns. Thus, although Shi'is engaged in battles with crusaders, they never once mentioned it as being holy war, and jihad played NO part in their ideology.

I could go into the origin of madrassas, and the role of Sufis in the first ritual beheadings of captured hostages (something we see now on al-Jazeera).

Everything that is taking place today has its roots SOLIDLY in historical documents, historical precedence, and fact. Anyone who claims to be a Muslim cannot go around inventing other aspects on their own, choosing to ignore wholesale the heavy hand of history which lies upon each branch of the Islamic heterodoxy.

Anyone who claims to be a Muslim cannot go around inventing other aspects on their own, choosing to ignore wholesale the heavy hand of history which lies upon each branch of the Islamic heterodoxy.


And why not? Just as modern christians choose to ignore the following biblical verses

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

Deuteronomy 7:5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.


Also, Martin Luther chose to ignore the church dogma and was persecuted by the Catholic church, but lo an behold, his views prevailed.

Why is it so impossible for a muslim to do the same? I know several muslims who believe that the outward jihad is a dated medieval concept, yes they all live in the western world, but that does not make them less muslim. They also break other sommandments, like drinking alcohol, but christians break scripture all the time as well (premarrital sex fx), without them being less christian (though some will argue that they are).

I would argue that as long as you follow the five pillars of Islam, you are a muslim.

And why not? Just as modern christians choose to ignore the following biblical verses

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

Deuteronomy 7:5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.


Also, Martin Luther chose to ignore the church dogma and was persecuted by the Catholic church, but lo an behold, his views prevailed.

Why is it so impossible for a muslim to do the same? I know several muslims who believe that the outward jihad is a dated medieval concept, yes they all live in the western world, but that does not make them less muslim. They also break other sommandments, like drinking alcohol, but christians break scripture all the time as well (premarrital sex fx), without them being less christian (though some will argue that they are).

I would argue that as long as you follow the five pillars of Islam, you are a muslim.


The problem you have, is that unlike most Christians in Western democracies, most Muslims are far more fervent and traditional in their beliefs. And most Muslims DO NOT live in Western countries. Those are far, far in the minority.

It is quite apparent that Sunnis are historicaly - and quite consistently - violent up to the present day. Since 1105, to be precise. With little or no interruption - or change in policy or belief.

There's something that I in my "right wing absolutes" believe:

There will be no real peace until one side or the other obtains total victory. Until either have completely crushed the other in a fashion from which recovery is impossible there will confrontation.

Examples:Roman-Carthaginian war, American civil war, WWII.