NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm relocating the thread "Are You a Christian?" because it has like 400 replies and it is getting hard for me to follow. Sorry to be so pansy or self-centered, or whatever I'm doing, but I simply think the original thread is far too cluttered. Also, individuals are carrying on personal arguments that only slightly if so pertain to the original question: Are You a Christian? I will make it a little easier this time and also ask "Why?"
So are you? Why are you? Why are you not?

I'm relocating the thread "Are You a Christian?" because it has like 400 replies and it is getting hard for me to follow. Sorry to be so pansy or self-centered, or whatever I'm doing, but I simply think the original thread is far too cluttered. Also, individuals are carrying on personal arguments that only slightly if so pertain to the original question: Are You a Christian? I will make it a little easier this time and also ask "Why?"
So are you? Why are you? Why are you not?

No, I am not a Christian, because I find it hard to accept a book as perfect and absolute truth when other things like evolution and agnosticism make more sense. There are certain things in the Bible that I just disagree with. I hear the Bible says, "Don't kick against the prick," and I can't follow that advice.

It says homosexuality is an abomination and homosexuals should be killed.
It says menstruating (sp?) women are filthy, and if you touch them or anything they have had contact with, you are unclean as well until the evening. And of course, women should be subordinate to men.
It says people should be killed for working on the Sabbath.
It says you should beat your children with rods.

Those were just a few gems.

I do not know what bible your reading but it does not say homosexuals should be killed.

Could someone tell me what Christian holy books say Jesus Christ recommended, subtracting references to God and magic? Then I might be a little clearer on what Christianity is.

Could someone tell me what Christian holy books say Jesus Christ recommended, subtracting references to God and magic? Then I might be a little clearer on what Christianity is.

"Love thy neighbour" is a good starting-point.

For the thread starter, I'm Catholic, baptised and raised that way. I suppose if I'd been raised Lutheran or Jewish I'd be that way now too. It's well-nigh impossible to prove that your religion is better than someone else's (though that doesn't mean we shouldn't take a crack at it), so there's enough plausibility in most religions for intelligent, rational people to follow them.

As for why I'm a Christian in general, I simply look to how the world or the universe was made. I think that having the universe come out of nowhere in some colossal explosion, then spawning planets pretty much from nowhere, which then started to host simple lifeforms ex nihilo, which then magically transmogrified into complex life, and further produced humanity, thereby bringing us to today from a point billions of years in the past, is much too complex, and frankly less plausible than saying "There's some big, powerful guy in the sky who made the world and everything in it."

No I am not a Christian anymore because Christ promised He would return and true to His word He did. Just as it says in the Book of Revelations He has come with a new name. The name is Baha'u'llah. It means the Glory of God. I was raised Catholic and became a Baha'i at the age of 26. Any questions?

Okay, so far, for what Jesus recommends, subtracting God and magic, we have:

1. Love thy neighbor.


Anything else?

No I am not a Christian anymore because Christ promised He would return and true to His word He did. Just as it says in the Book of Revelations He has come with a new name. The name is Baha'u'llah. It means the Glory of God. I was raised Catholic and became a Baha'i at the age of 26. Any questions?


isnt baha'i where you sit around and drink coffee and eat donuts and talk about how much were all just pink and gooey on the inside and that all the religions are basically the same and then you buy billboards and stuff? is there anything else?

the only commandment i follow is love thyself and live for the furthering of the entity called I

It's well-nigh impossible to prove that your religion is better than someone else's (though that doesn't mean we shouldn't take a crack at it)
I think that having the universe come out of nowhere in some colossal explosion, then spawning planets pretty much from nowhere, which then started to host simple lifeforms ex nihilo, which then magically transmogrified into complex life, and further produced humanity, thereby bringing us to today from a point billions of years in the past, is much too complex, and frankly less plausible than saying "There's some big, powerful guy in the sky who made the world and everything in it."

Oh, you sure take a crack at it all right. I've been to Christian mass, and I really don't need a self-centered white man telling me everyone who doesn't agree with his views is going to hell. I don't have a problem with the religion as much as the followers who refuse to believe that there could be another way and continualy bash others for their beliefs.

And we're the ones who believe in magic?

I was once a Christian, but that was long ago, when I was seven years old-far to young to know anything else. I don't think I could ever be Christian again.

After just completing 13 years of Catholic education, I can safely say that no, I am not a Christian. ;)

No I'm not.

I do not know what bible your reading but it does not say homosexuals should be killed.

The hell it doesn't.

Leviticus 20:13 states: "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they should surely be put to death....".

Hurrah, this thread is a lot simpler than the last one. So yes, I am a Christian, but I dislike organized religion, and do not consider my Christianity to be Christianity the religion, but Christianity the followings of what I have learned Christ commands His follwoers to do. For one, he does say Love your enemy, as well as your neighbor, and that the meek, the poor, the compassionate, pretty much all underdogs and persecuted people (in any way) are the honorable people of the world. Christ knew what the pinnacle of human existence is, and He tried to lay it out for us, Love one another, and love God. If we will love our fellow human brethren as what they are, no better than us and just humans all around, then I believe this world would be a significantly better place. I believe the teachings of Christ to be summed up in His Sermon on the Mount and the verse in James that reads something about Pure and undefiled religion in the eyes of God: to care for the widow and the orphan in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. To the poster who said the Bible condemns homosexuals to death, it does not, but it does condemn them to Hell, and this I, as a Christian, have a problem with. Though note that the book(s) that say this were letters from someone who was not Christ to some church somewhere, and were in no way to be considered to be the teachings of Christ. Homosexual sin is wrong, according to I think Paul, but in the same book he says that marriage is uneccessary and only useful for preventing the act of fornication. He does not even mention marriage for love, or as a church-ordained institution. Jesus Himself said that in Heaven there is no marriage, so obviously it's either asexual or unisexual. I mean, if the point of it all is to love one another, why not express that love in whatever way both people are comfortable with? As for the quote that the Bible condemns women's menstruations, most of the laws of this sort in the OT were made for the health and safety of the Jews, such as their diet and stuff. Think about it, what is sanitary about the blood from a woman's uteris? Nothing, it's blood. So of course you should keep away from it. But to sum it all up, I really don't enjoy church anymore, and I would much rather be out helping people than sitting in a room full of people who are all there just because some fanatics made a religion out of Christ's teachings. He never said to hold services and stuff, He only told us to honor the Sabbath, which was the Jewish Sabbath, and to take communion in remembrance of Him. This means remember Him, no matter what you do, even if you don't "partake of the Lord's supper." I know God, I am a man after God's own heart, and I know God wants no homosexuals to be killed, nor any other humans for that matter, and though He may be a jealous God, judgmental and wrathful, it is always in His righteous retribution against people who do not repent for their grievances against HIM. He is essentially a loving God who cares for His creations and has given them everything they need here on this planet. We've even proved we don't need Him anymore, which explains all the atheists and other non Christians who post on this thread. All I really want to say, though, is I believe in Christ, but not as much as I do God, the loving and compassionate God whom I serve, I don't care who you think He is, I know my God and I know He only cares about the good of all people. Now you see why I have communistic tendencies.

Why am I not a christian? Sam reason I'm not muslim, hindu or wiccan.

I see no reason to believe any of them.

The hell it doesn't.

Leviticus 20:13 states: "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they should surely be put to death....".


Ok, there was no room in the ancient Jewish culture for homosexuals. For all we know, God was banning homosexuality because He feared the people wouldn't multiply enough to get to where we are today. And today we can understand that homosexuality isn't cause for death. The Bible must be taken with an ounce of though and education.

Yes, I am a Christian, because all you need to do to be one is believe in God and that Jesus saved you. You don't have to abstain from anything, but it's frowned upon if someone finds out you arent doing it depending on the denomination.

I don't have a problem with the religion as much as the followers who refuse to believe that there could be another way and continualy bash others for their beliefs.

If one's religion is handed down from God Himself (and assuming that there is only one god), how could there be any other way? If the Almighty pulls you aside on Mount Sinai, or puts His Son on earth, or sends you the Archangel Gabriel with a very special message, why would you presume that the way you've been told God wants to you behave is not the only way? It seems kind of inconsistent and confusing for God to start up several religions, all with the assurance that they've got his endorsement and should start making converts immediately.

And you're the one who brings up bashing others. On this thread, I've so far seen a respectful, polite conversation. Maybe you're embittered by knowing the wrong kind of people; I assure you that most religious people I know aren't obnoxious Jesus freaks willing to go to any lengths to make sure you're "saved."

isnt baha'i where you sit around and drink coffee and eat donuts and talk about how much were all just pink and gooey on the inside and that all the religions are basically the same and then you buy billboards and stuff? is there anything else?


Jeez, I love donuts. Where are those meetings at, I want to go to one of them. All kidding aside, there is much more to the Baha'i Faith. I will post a quote or two. There are Baha'is all around the world. Google Baha'i temples once and take a look at the different temples around the world.


Soon will your swiftly-passing days be over, and the fame and riches, the comforts, the joys provided by this rubbish-heap, the world, will be gone without a trace. Summon ye, then, the people to God, and invite humanity to follow the example of the Company on high. Be ye loving fathers to the orphan, and a refuge to the helpless, and a treasury for the poor, and a cure for the ailing. Be ye the helpers of every victim of oppression, the patrons of the disadvantaged. Think ye at all times of rendering some service to every member of the human race. Pay ye no heed to aversion and rejection, to disdain, hostility, injustice: act ye in the opposite way. Be ye sincerely kind, not in appearance only. Let each one of God's loved ones centre his attention on this: to be the Lord's mercy to man; to be the Lord's grace. Let him do some good to every person whose path he crosseth, and be of some benefit to him. Let him improve the character of each and all, and reorient the minds of men. In this way, the light of divine guidance will shine forth, and the blessings of God will cradle all mankind: for love is light, no matter in what abode it dwelleth; and hate is darkness, no matter where it may make its nest. O friends of God! That the hidden Mystery may stand revealed, and the secret essence of all things may be disclosed, strive ye to banish that darkness for ever and ever. *4

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 2)

If one's religion is handed down from God Himself (and assuming that there is only one god), how could there be any other way? If the Almighty pulls you aside on Mount Sinai, or puts His Son on earth...


But other religions can also boost the same sort of divine interation to jump start their faith. How do you explain that? And if its that they made it up whats to say you arn't too?

I am part CI (christian Identity) and also part odinist. I belive in bits of both, so I am not fully Christian Identity or fully an odinist.

Yes, I am a Christian, because all you need to do to be one is believe in God and that Jesus saved you. You don't have to abstain from anything, but it's frowned upon if someone finds out you arent doing it depending on the denomination.

I really hope you are not implying that everyone should believe that Jesus saved us all. It is those kinds of Christians who I really dislike because they go up to me and say "O you do not believe in Christ? You're going to hell".

I would not say that any religion in general is bad or evil. It is how the priests or the people interpret them. Like those Christians who believe that Christ saved us all and how we would go to hell. Yeah, they are the true fools of this world. Another examples are the Radical Muslims who believe that anyone who does not believe in Allah is an infidel and therefore must die. They are also scum of the world. Dont ever forget the fact that religion was created to give a sense of hope and control over the people.

BTW, Im not Christian.

If one's religion is handed down from God Himself (and assuming that there is only one god), how could there be any other way? If the Almighty pulls you aside on Mount Sinai, or puts His Son on earth, or sends you the Archangel Gabriel with a very special message, why would you presume that the way you've been told God wants to you behave is not the only way? It seems kind of inconsistent and confusing for God to start up several religions, all with the assurance that they've got his endorsement and should start making converts immediately.

And you're the one who brings up bashing others. On this thread, I've so far seen a respectful, polite conversation. Maybe you're embittered by knowing the wrong kind of people; I assure you that most religious people I know aren't obnoxious Jesus freaks willing to go to any lengths to make sure you're "saved."

I'm glad at least I made it a Respectful, polite thread. And about the "Mandate of Heaven" religion view, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are all mandates from the same God, Allah/Jehovah/LORD, and what have ye. Who's to say that God did not bring Siddharta Guatama his nirvana? God was speaking to Mohammed in order to bring the knowledge of Him to the Arabic peoples. Islam and Christianity have follwoed the same route: God revolutionizes the people through one Prophet or such figure (Messiah, and stuff), and the people take it and run with it. The Christians killed each other for hundreds of years, even Crusaded against the Muslims and the Eatsern Balkan Christians (once), and the Muslims campaigned as far as they could reach in the name of God, but being ignorant, fundamentalist humans, no one has yet seen that it is the same God, with much of the same commandments. Humans are not made to be divided; according to Judeo-Christian texts, all humans used to speak the same language. Apparently, we aren't supposed to be killing each other, especially not in God's name (at least not in God's name). I just wanted to add Mecca/Medina to the Sinai/Son of God/Gabriel list. That and Siddharta.

It seems kind of inconsistent and confusing for God to start up several religions, all with the assurance that they've got his endorsement and should start making converts immediately.

It would seem inconsistent and confusing if the several religions started up at the same time in the same place. But they did not. They started at different times in different places because God wanted all people to share in His message. He left no one out because He is a just God. How could it be any other way. It is the leaders of religions who insist that the other religions are not valid and encourage the people to turn their backs on the new Divine Messenger.

hm... well, maybe this thread can avoid some of what the other devolved into ^^; but...

The simple answer is no, I am not Christian. I believe in Yahweh and Jesus as valid spiritual entities, and believe the religion to be valid within itself, but no more or less valid than any other. I'm not a Christian more because it doesn't speak to me; I don't connect with it as a whole on any significant level, and I don't believe in the vast majority of its tenets.

Many religions under the vast, nebulous umbrella of Paganism, however, and certain other deities, however, I do feel and connect with. It is what the cumulation of my experiences has led to me to feel and believe. Along with many common ideas.

Admittedly, I have a lot of problems with Christianity, but they are merely secondary factors.

I really hope you are not implying that everyone should believe that Jesus saved us all. It is those kinds of Christians who I really dislike because they go up to me and say "O you do not believe in Christ? You're going to hell".

No I'm not one of those. If people don't know Jesus or whatever, they are considered based on their life. No, I don't think everyone goes to heaven, but I don't think all Buddhists, Muslims, etc. go to hell either. I am of the belief that God sent their prophets to their parts of the world so they could understand them better. Mohammad, Buddha, etc. Therefore, I'm saying I don't really know, nor do I give a shit. I'm the son of a pastor, not a pastor myself. I have no objections to how others live their lives.

Jeez, I love donuts. Where are those meetings at, I want to go to one of them. All kidding aside, there is much more to the Baha'i Faith. I will post a quote or two. There are Baha'is all around the world. Google Baha'i temples once and take a look at the different temples around the world.


Soon will your swiftly-passing days be over, and the fame and riches, the comforts, the joys provided by this rubbish-heap, the world, will be gone without a trace. Summon ye, then, the people to God, and invite humanity to follow the example of the Company on high. Be ye loving fathers to the orphan, and a refuge to the helpless, and a treasury for the poor, and a cure for the ailing. Be ye the helpers of every victim of oppression, the patrons of the disadvantaged. Think ye at all times of rendering some service to every member of the human race. Pay ye no heed to aversion and rejection, to disdain, hostility, injustice: act ye in the opposite way. Be ye sincerely kind, not in appearance only. Let each one of God's loved ones centre his attention on this: to be the Lord's mercy to man; to be the Lord's grace. Let him do some good to every person whose path he crosseth, and be of some benefit to him. Let him improve the character of each and all, and reorient the minds of men. In this way, the light of divine guidance will shine forth, and the blessings of God will cradle all mankind: for love is light, no matter in what abode it dwelleth; and hate is darkness, no matter where it may make its nest. O friends of God! That the hidden Mystery may stand revealed, and the secret essence of all things may be disclosed, strive ye to banish that darkness for ever and ever. *4

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 2)
The bible clearly says that when christ returns everyone will know it. Not just you and a few others, there will be no question of it, every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that jesus christ is lord. Not some bali hai, I had some clove cigarettes called that. he

It would seem inconsistent and confusing if the several religions started up at the same time in the same place. But they did not. They started at different times in different places because God wanted all people to share in His message. He left no one out because He is a just God. How could it be any other way. It is the leaders of religions who insist that the other religions are not valid and encourage the people to turn their backs on the new Divine Messenger.

Well, although they didn't all start out at the same time, three major religions of the world(christianity, islam, judaism) did start out in about the same place .
Not to mention that it makes sense for all the religious leaders to insist that other religions are false becasue many religions contradict each other.

The bible clearly says that when christ returns everyone will know it. Not just you and a few others, there will be no question of it, every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that jesus christ is lord. Not some bali hai, I had some clove cigarettes called that. he

But pointing to the quote from the Baha'i stuff, you can't ignore the fact that it is what God wants for the world. Perhaps God was trying it again, sending another Prophet or Messenger or what have ye so that people might grasp at least the basic - to spread light and love, to do away with hate and darkness (illumination terms figurative of course) - and maybe humans again took it and ran, turning it into something it was not meant for, and calling it the Second Coming and all that junk. I can't claim anything about Baha'i, never having delved or researched, but from that quote I can tell you that someone got it, understood what God's all about. Besides, what does Christ's return have to do with any of this, or any of us?? When it happens, it happens, and there's nothing we can do about it to predict/prevent/speed/slow/change it in any way. I mean, cross that bridge when you come to it. Besides, apparently you'll know it, so why even care when it comes. I just have something against those evangelicals on the radio and stuff who always say (in their stereotypical Southern Baptist accents, which I resent, being a rural Georgian myself) "And when the Son of Man returns..." and stuff. Like any of it matters. Like any of what I just said matters.

No, I am not a Christian, because I find it hard to accept a book as perfect and absolute truth when other things like evolution and agnosticism make more sense. There are certain things in the Bible that I just disagree with. I hear the Bible says, "Don't kick against the prick," and I can't follow that advice.

It says homosexuality is an abomination and homosexuals should be killed.
It says menstruating (sp?) women are filthy, and if you touch them or anything they have had contact with, you are unclean as well until the evening. And of course, women should be subordinate to men.
It says people should be killed for working on the Sabbath.
It says you should beat your children with rods.

Those were just a few gems.
Woah there... That's the old testament... and only one translation of it. calm down. The new testament is what Christianity is based upon.

Well, although they didn't all start out at the same time, three major religions of the world(christianity, islam, judaism) did start out in about the same place .
Not to mention that it makes sense for all the religious leaders to insist that other religions are false becasue many religions contradict each other.


You may not be aware of the latest world religion the Baha'i Faith which started in Persia or Iran. Also, Zororastianism started in Persian before Christianity. Your comment that religions contradict each other can be thought of as correct if you are talking about the purely social laws regarding diet, marriage and other similiar laws. But if you consider the spiritual laws the are essentially the same. One can think of each Divine Messenger as speaking with the same voice.

But pointing to the quote from the Baha'i stuff, you can't ignore the fact that it is what God wants for the world. Perhaps God was trying it again, sending another Prophet or Messenger or what have ye so that people might grasp at least the basic - to spread light and love, to do away with hate and darkness (illumination terms figurative of course) - and maybe humans again took it and ran, turning it into something it was not meant for, and calling it the Second Coming and all that junk. I can't claim anything about Baha'i, never having delved or researched, but from that quote I can tell you that someone got it, understood what God's all about. Besides, what does Christ's return have to do with any of this, or any of us?? When it happens, it happens, and there's nothing we can do about it to predict/prevent/speed/slow/change it in any way. I mean, cross that bridge when you come to it. Besides, apparently you'll know it, so why even care when it comes. I just have something against those evangelicals on the radio and stuff who always say (in their stereotypical Southern Baptist accents, which I resent, being a rural Georgian myself) "And when the Son of Man returns..." and stuff. Like any of it matters. Like any of what I just said matters.
The guy claims to be a former christian, who now worships thes bahai guy because he thinks he's jesus returned. I'm just pointing out the big holes in his faith. For all I know christ will return in a million years. I honestly have no idea when and I dont dwell on it. The point is that whebn Jesus returns, every man woman and child on earth will know that instant. And the bible warns against false messiahs like this bahai.

The bible clearly says that when christ returns everyone will know it. Not just you and a few others, there will be no question of it, every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that jesus christ is lord. Not some bali hai, I had some clove cigarettes called that. he


The Bible also clearly states that Christ will come like a "Thief in the Night."

A thief comes quietly when people are sleeping. Don't be so sure you are not asleep right now and the clouds of your unwillingness to investigate are not keeping you from finding out the truth.

The Bible also clearly states that Christ will come like a "Thief in the Night."

A thief comes quietly when people are sleeping. Don't be so sure you are not asleep right now and the clouds of your unwillingness to investigate are not keeping you from finding out the truth.

This just means we'll all be suprised

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains ]

23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Ok, there was no room in the ancient Jewish culture for homosexuals. For all we know, God was banning homosexuality because He feared the people wouldn't multiply enough to get to where we are today. And today we can understand that homosexuality isn't cause for death. The Bible must be taken with an ounce of though and education.

Homosexuality was never that common. Not to the point where people would quit reproducing.

People use this argument all the time. They say the Bible was necessary or we'd all be having sex with our children, commiting cannabalism (sp?), and taking part in all sorts of barbaric activity. I don't buy that. I don't think the human race is that stupid.

This just means we'll all be suprised

Suprised, indeed.

62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

(King James Bible, Isaiah)

So when Jesus returns He will have a new name.

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains ]

23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

And Baha'u'llah came from the East to the West. And the new name is the Glory of God.

Homosexuality was never that common. Not to the point where people would quit reproducing.

People use this argument all the time. They say the Bible was necessary or we'd all be having sex with our children, commiting cannabalism (sp?), and taking part in all sorts of barbaric activity. I don't buy that. I don't think the human race is that stupid.
Regardless of my distrust in the human race as the entire race of people (yes, I do think ther're stupid enough, some of them anyway. I mean, most of W's votes were not fabricated), I do bring into question now the rumor that AIDS was spread throughout the Western world by some guy surprise buttsexing a monkey from Africa. So what's the deal w/ that? Maybe God was trying to prevent that? I have no clue.

goodthoughts please read post 36. Cant you see you have been decieved, if this man claimed to be christ, then he is a liar. Please explain my post 36. These are the words of christ, he foresaw what would happen to you, and warned you.

Woah there... That's the old testament... and only one translation of it. calm down. The new testament is what Christianity is based upon.

So you're saying the New Testament retracted those things.

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains ]

23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

And Baha'u'llah came from the east to the west.

goodthoughts please read post 36. Cant you see you have been decieved, if this man claimed to be christ, then he is a liar. Please explain my post 36. These are the words of christ, he foresaw what would happen to you, and warned you.

And the words of Christ are the answer.

7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

goodthoughts please read post 36. Cant you see you have been decieved, if this man claimed to be christ, then he is a liar. Please explain my post 36. These are the words of christ, he foresaw what would happen to you, and warned you.

Call out to Zion, O Carmel, and announce the joyful tidings: He that was hidden from mortal eyes is come! His all-conquering sovereignty is manifest; His all-encompassing splendour is revealed. Beware lest thou hesitate or halt. Hasten forth and circumambulate the City of God that hath descended from heaven, the celestial Kaaba round which have circled in adoration the favoured of God, the pure in heart, and the company of the most exalted angels. Oh, how I long to announce unto every spot on the surface of the earth, and to carry to each one of its cities, the glad-tidings of this Revelation -- a Revelation to which the heart of Sinai hath been attracted, and in whose name the Burning Bush is calling: "Unto God, the Lord of Lords, belong the kingdoms of earth and heaven." Verily this is the Day in which both land and sea rejoice at this announcement, the Day for which have been laid up those things which God, through a bounty beyond the ken of mortal mind or heart, hath destined for revelation. Ere long will God sail His Ark upon thee, and will manifest the people of Baha who have been mentioned in the Book of Names.'

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 4)

So you're saying the New Testament retracted those things.

The Bible contains a whole lot of information: (not necessarily in order)

1) History and Early Levitical Laws given to and by Moses.
2) Prophesy
3) Metaphor, Allegory, and parable (Lessons)
4) Teachings and the reported life of Christ in the New Testament.

It helps if you are able to discern which is which when reading the Bible...

The short answer.. Christ said he came as fulfillment of the law..

And His Commandments were:

To love God with all your heart.. and and love your neighbor as yourself.

Christ indicated that if these 2 were followed, all the other laws would be fulfilled by default...

It is interesting reading...

And the words of Christ are the answer.

7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Hey, if this guy didnt claim to be jesus, I wouldnt have a problem. If you didnt claim he was christ, then I wouldnt worry about you. The fruit of Bahai from my perspective is you. And you are contradicting and twisting the bible. Thus this passage, from my perspective shows that you have been decieved.

The Bible contains a whole lot of information: (not necessarily in order)

1) History and Early Levitical Laws given to and by Moses.
2) Prophesy
3) Metaphor, Allegory, and parable (Lessons)
4) Teachings and the reported life of Christ in the New Testament.

It helps if you are able to discern which is which when reading the Bible...

The short answer.. Christ said he came as fulfillment of the law..

And His Commandments were:

To love God with all your heart.. and and love your neighbor as yourself.

Christ indicated that if these 2 were followed, all the other laws would be fulfilled by default...

It is interesting reading...

This is the Heart of the Gospel if you ask me.

Regardless of my distrust in the human race as the entire race of people (yes, I do think ther're stupid enough, some of them anyway. I mean, most of W's votes were not fabricated), I do bring into question now the rumor that AIDS was spread throughout the Western world by some guy surprise buttsexing a monkey from Africa. So what's the deal w/ that? Maybe God was trying to prevent that? I have no clue.

I think Bush's supporters are a misguided and misled group of people. But that's beside the point.

The Bible certainly didn't stop that guy from buttsexing the monkey, but that sort of deals with another topic (free will). And AIDS is being spread so, because the African people are not being educated well enough. Some still believe that you can cure your AIDS by having sex with a virgin. Those kinds of beliefs are extremely dangerous like I believe certain religions can be (by preventing open discussion). Also, the Russian government isn't doing anything about AIDS in their country. And our homosexuals are doing crystal meth and having risky sex. In some places here, the average age of someone infected with AIDS is 40, which I found unbelievable. I don't believe the Bible helped that situation.

1. I am a Christian and proud of it. If you try to convert me, you will fail.

2. I believe that those who go to hell are the really bad sinners and those who here god's messages and choose to ignore them while knowing that those are god's words.

3. the bible was being used to promote slavery(slaves weren't allowed to learn how to read for a reason) and to promote hatred of those who are different.(killing gays and Jews, the persecution of Native Americans, etc.) The bible doesn't promote those things. People just use it as an excuse.

4. The bible was written to be understood by the people of that timeframe. There wasn't divorce or abortian issues. Gay still meant joyous and happy instead of liking someone of the same gender. Cars were probably a made up word randomly blurted out by crazy lunatics. You can't take it literally completely anymore unless you understand the language of the day.

5. Religion is important. It was the original source of rules and laws. People needed control, so they came up with all these religions. Some are crazy, but religion was the first science. I say that becuase much of it was based on observation and it is used to understand stuff. Here's how one religion might have started.

A: I heard this new word, "god". It's supposed to mean some guy in the sky who makes stuff.
B: They are supposed to be powerful, like volcanoes.
A: That must be bacause there is a pissed off god down there. There must be many. Everything must be controlled by gods.
B: So, who's the main god? Sex god? Gay god? Jeff god? Ass god?
A: Maybe poop god.
C: What about fox god or wolf god?
A: What? Wolves are evil. They eat the same animals we eat. Plus, I like burning them to death, skinning them alive, and burying them alive. Therefore, they are pure evil.
B: You're evil.
A: That's it. I'm creating a new religion that you can't join because you're stupid.
B: Good luck. (<sarcasm) I already have a fox god, a wolf god, a sex god, a poop god, a guy next door selling fruit god, an ass god, a fart god, a god god,.........

There you go. The source of some of the craziest religions ever.

I'm not a Christian because Christ did not fufill the Jewish Prophecy of the Messiah. He was not of the tribe of David. He did not restore the temple. The Jewish people were not freed from bondage. The prophecy's state that when the Messiah comes there will be peace on earth etc. I could post more of the ones Jesus didn't fufill but those are just off the top of my head.

I consider myself a Christian, but with a lot of unorthodox beliefs. Ex: I don't believe in "the Devil". I think evil is something in human nature, not because of some supernatural temptor. It's the ultimate cop-out to blame one's own faults on "The Devil made me do it". I also don't believe in eternal damnation. I know some of you will disagree, but I'd appreciate not being flamed for this post. After all, my beliefs are a win-win situation for evangelicals. If they're right and I'm wrong, they're going to heaven, I'm going to hell: they win. If I'm right and they're wrong, we're all going to heaven, there is no hell: they still win.

"Jesus was alright, but his followers were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins it for me." -- John Lennon

Hey, if this guy didnt claim to be jesus, I wouldnt have a problem. If you didnt claim he was christ, then I wouldnt worry about you. The fruit of Bahai from my perspective is you. And you are contradicting and twisting the bible. Thus this passage, from my perspective shows that you have been decieved.

You don't need to worry about me. When I die you won't be there with me. We all stand alone at that time. You only need to worry about yourself. You will not be able to say that no one ever told me about this. Only that you did not believe.

I think Bush's supporters are a misguided and misled group of people. But that's beside the point.

The Bible certainly didn't stop that guy from buttsexing the monkey, but that sort of deals with another topic (free will). And AIDS is being spread so, because the African people are not being educated well enough. Some still believe that you can cure your AIDS by having sex with a virgin. Those kinds of beliefs are extremely dangerous like I believe certain religions can be (by preventing open discussion). Also, the Russian government isn't doing anything about AIDS in their country. And our homosexuals are doing crystal meth and having risky sex. In some places here, the average age of someone infected with AIDS is 40, which I found unbelievable. I don't believe the Bible helped that situation.

.. and of course you have a possible solution for the whole mess.... I can't wait to hear it!

The Bible contains a whole lot of information: (not necessarily in order)

1) History and Early Levitical Laws given to and by Moses.
2) Prophesy
3) Metaphor, Allegory, and parable (Lessons)
4) Teachings and the reported life of Christ in the New Testament.

It helps if you are able to discern which is which when reading the Bible...

The short answer.. Christ said he came as fulfillment of the law..

And His Commandments were:

To love God with all your heart.. and and love your neighbor as yourself.

Christ indicated that if these 2 were followed, all the other laws would be fulfilled by default...

It is interesting reading...

The things I posted earlier were in the Levitical laws and perhaps other places around there.

I think Bush's supporters are a misguided and misled group of people. But that's beside the point.

The Bible certainly didn't stop that guy from buttsexing the monkey, but that sort of deals with another topic (free will). And AIDS is being spread so, because the African people are not being educated well enough. Some still believe that you can cure your AIDS by having sex with a virgin. Those kinds of beliefs are extremely dangerous like I believe certain religions can be (by preventing open discussion). Also, the Russian government isn't doing anything about AIDS in their country. And our homosexuals are doing crystal meth and having risky sex. In some places here, the average age of someone infected with AIDS is 40, which I found unbelievable. I don't believe the Bible helped that situation.
Well, the obvious thing for me to say is, of course the Bible didn't help - it wasn't followed! How was it supposed to help if they didn't read it. But that's besides my opinion. And I agree on the Bush-supporter comment. And thouroughly ashamed of my future host country's lack of initiative to deal with a terrible problem, besides that it seriously hampers my safety when chatting up the devotchki. This sucks.

I'm not a Christian because Christ did not fufill the Jewish Prophecy of the Messiah. He was not of the tribe of David. He did not restore the temple. The Jewish people were not freed from bondage. The prophecy's state that when the Messiah comes there will be peace on earth etc. I could post more of the ones Jesus didn't fufill but those are just off the top of my head.

Christ warned that He came not to free people in the physical sensebut the spiritual sense. I could give you a longer answer, but it is late here in Minnesota and I have to get up and drive five hours tomorrow.

.. and of course you have a possible solution for the whole mess.... I can't wait to hear it!

Nice refutation. I'll start hiding underneath my desk now.

I'm not a Christian because Christ did not fufill the Jewish Prophecy of the Messiah. He was not of the tribe of David. He did not restore the temple. The Jewish people were not freed from bondage. The prophecy's state that when the Messiah comes there will be peace on earth etc. I could post more of the ones Jesus didn't fufill but those are just off the top of my head.

I have to agree with you... But you really can't say that until the true end of time.. Like the man said.... "It ain't over til the fat lady sings...."

Be patient.... (So says the Bible..)

Well, the obvious thing for me to say is, of course the Bible didn't help - it wasn't followed! How was it supposed to help if they didn't read it. But that's besides my opinion. And I agree on the Bush-supporter comment. And thouroughly ashamed of my future host country's lack of initiative to deal with a terrible problem, besides that it seriously hampers my safety when chatting up the devotchki. This sucks.

I don't get how reading the Bible will help their situation. The Africans get ministered to all the time.

Nice refutation. I'll start hiding underneath my desk now.

hehehe.. Please no... Not necessary.. that was NOT the "nuclear" option... I just usually am accustommed to, when someone poses a situation or problem, it be followed by a suggested solution...

My bad! :D

Hey, if this guy didnt claim to be jesus, I wouldnt have a problem. If you didnt claim he was christ, then I wouldnt worry about you. The fruit of Bahai from my perspective is you. And you are contradicting and twisting the bible. Thus this passage, from my perspective shows that you have been decieved.

Blessed Assurance my last quote for you for the night: Christ speaking again.

O CHILDREN OF MEN!
Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

I don't get how reading the Bible will help their situation. The Africans get ministered to all the time.

Well, I did say that it was besides my opinion. I don't really think the world's problems can be solved by the Bible, because though it is a great text to learn from, not everyone seem to have the ability to do so. And it's also not a good thing to learn only from the Bible, as many people I know have shown me. But back to your quote, you did only say that Africans were ministered to. Did you add that they decide to convert/follow those teachings? No. But I understand the situation in Africa and I know I can't break it down to "Oh, they hear it and don't listen, etc.,etc. " Truth is the AIDS epidemic makes me fear for the future of the human race. I mean, the smallpox epidemic lasted hundreds of years before we wiped it out, and now we may not have wiped it out (and there is precious few samples of vaccine left). With no "vaccine" for AIDS, are we all screwed? worldwide epidemics are the bane of humanity. Look at how bad the travelling flu has us bent over a table.

All this talk of false idols and untruths bores the Great God and Ruler of all of Lancanster.

Praise be to Justin,
Bang Jons
Personal representative from Lancanster to the heathen world.

All this talk of false idols and untruths bores the Great God and Ruler of all of Lancanster.

Praise be to Justin,
Bang Jons
Personal representative from Lancanster to the heathen world.

Methinks the great Justin should have been wiser than to reach into a cesspool and expect to come up with a fistful of gold...

Is your "Exalted High Advisor" on vacation?

hehehe.. Please no... Not necessary.. that was NOT the "nuclear" option... I just usually am accustommed to, when someone poses a situation or problem, it be followed by a suggested solution...

My bad! :D

I'm sorry. That was rude of me. I thought I was being attacked. By the way, first we must all acknowledge this problem of AIDS. Then, we could start educating people, handing out condoms, helping their governments, being more of a friend to Africa. We have to tell Putin about himself, too, if he doesn't come around. I've been wanting someone to do that for the longest. It's not perfect, but I suppose it's a start. And of course, we need Europe as well.

I don't believe in these Beneih'ahs or pookamookas. Christs siad that the end of the world will start when he comes back. Are we in a full blown nuclear war? Isn't the sun still there? Isn't the moon still white? DO you see green people blowing up people under command of the rabbit people from Orbutt 5? No. The world isn't over, yet. There is no truly new world order. Therefore, Christs only came back to life once, almost 2000 years ago. Call me any word you can think of. fa***t, retard, f**ker, etc. I've heard them all, the English ones at least.

I'm sorry. That was rude of me. I thought I was being attacked. By the way, first we must all acknowledge this problem of AIDS. Then, we could start educating people, handing out condoms, helping their governments, being more of a friend to Africa. We have to tell Putin about himself, too, if he doesn't come around. I've been wanting someone to do that for the longest. It's not perfect, but I suppose it's a start. And of course, we need Europe as well.


Yes.. Attacks seem to be the norm around here... being the last refuge of the uneducated... I wandered in here a few days ago, and will occasionally pose some logical and questioning responses.

I think one would have to be from another planet to not know about AIDS.. The problem is so pandemic, that most people are in denial, and would rather not think about it or deal with it on any level (personal stigma)

Seems every year we hear about other superbugs that now can kill much faster than AIDS... Ebola... and other unnamed superbugs the governments of many countries are working on as weapons..

Where does one begin.... Whoops, I just wandered off-topic... Quick.. save it....

Thanks for the response... Bible is not a magic bullet for AIDS or any other
disease... (whew - saved it)

Well, I did say that it was besides my opinion. I don't really think the world's problems can be solved by the Bible, because though it is a great text to learn from, not everyone seem to have the ability to do so. And it's also not a good thing to learn only from the Bible, as many people I know have shown me. But back to your quote, you did only say that Africans were ministered to. Did you add that they decide to convert/follow those teachings? No. But I understand the situation in Africa and I know I can't break it down to "Oh, they hear it and don't listen, etc.,etc. " Truth is the AIDS epidemic makes me fear for the future of the human race. I mean, the smallpox epidemic lasted hundreds of years before we wiped it out, and now we may not have wiped it out (and there is precious few samples of vaccine left). With no "vaccine" for AIDS, are we all screwed? worldwide epidemics are the bane of humanity. Look at how bad the travelling flu has us bent over a table.

I didn't mean to reduce it to "They hear it and don't listen." There are many Christian Africans. It's a popular religion there along with Islam. I just don't believe religion does much good is what I meant. And yes, AIDS is really frightening, but I really believe we'll get through that one. There are so many threats to the human race (nuclear annihilation, environmental problems, terrorism, overpopulation, and etc.), so the world must come together. And religion is another thing that keeps us apart.

I don't believe in these Beneih'ahs or pookamookas. Christs siad that the end of the world will start when he comes back. Are we in a full blown nuclear war? Isn't the sun still there? Isn't the moon still white? DO you see green people blowing up people under command of the rabbit people from Orbutt 5? No. The world isn't over, yet. There is no truly new world order. Therefore, Christs only came back to life once, almost 2000 years ago. Call me any word you can think of. fa***t, retard, f**ker, etc. I've heard them all, the English ones at least.
I was just trying to warn this guy that he is blatantly falling into a trap that jesus warned of. He's trying to say that the bible isnt enough, christ isnt enough (blasphemy of the highest order). According to Goodthoughts you need Benihalioopa or whatever. Jesus is the savior you dont need anyone else. The bible is tyhe word of god and you dont need anyting else. Some Preachers, study guides, or christian fiction books may be helpful or entertaining, but not necessary.

I didn't mean to reduce it to "They hear it and don't listen." There are many Christian Africans. It's a popular religion there along with Islam. I just don't believe religion does much good is what I meant. And yes, AIDS is really frightening, but I really believe we'll get through that one. There are so many threats to the human race (nuclear annihilation, environmental problems, terrorism, overpopulation, and etc.), so the world must come together. And religion is another thing that keeps us apart.

Things that keep us apart:

Technologies
Social Status
Economic Status
Cultural differences
Race
Religion (you pointed this out)

Notice the 5 others - there are probably more... So religion is only one of many possible things that could be to blame for "keeping people apart"..

It's a multi-faceted problem... Not just a single cause...

Yes.. Attacks seem to be the norm around here... being the last refuge of the uneducated... I wandered in here a few days ago, and will occasionally pose some logical and questioning responses.

I think one would have to be from another planet to not know about AIDS.. The problem is so pandemic, that most people are in denial, and would rather not think about it or deal with it on any level (personal stigma)

Seems every year we hear about other superbugs that now can kill much faster than AIDS... Ebola... and other unnamed superbugs the governments of many countries are working on as weapons..

Where does one begin.... Whoops, I just wandered off-topic... Quick.. save it....

Thanks for the response... Bible is not a magic bullet for AIDS or any other
disease... (whew - saved it)

You're welcome.

Things that keep us apart:

Technologies
Social Status
Economic Status
Cultural differences
Race
Religion (you pointed this out)

Notice the 5 others - there are probably more... So religion is only one of many possible things that could be to blame for "keeping people apart"..

It's a multi-faceted problem... Not just a single cause...

Yes, I know. I'm not blaming it all on religion. I just said it was another thing keeping us apart.

I'm relocating the thread "Are You a Christian?" because it has like 400 replies and it is getting hard for me to follow. Sorry to be so pansy or self-centered, or whatever I'm doing, but I simply think the original thread is far too cluttered. Also, individuals are carrying on personal arguments that only slightly if so pertain to the original question: Are You a Christian? I will make it a little easier this time and also ask "Why?"
So are you? Why are you? Why are you not?
I'm not religious, though I most certainly am influenced by Christianity. I don't like going to church or professing the faith because I see too many idiots considering themselves superior because they believe that their religion is the only religion. I'm afraid to end up like that, so I don't commit.

Yes, I know. I'm not blaming it all on religion.

Hello again... I was just posting a few of the other things that keep us apart... For the sake of conversation.. I really didn't think you were blaming it all on religion... I was opening up the scope of the topic...

Thanks...

I'm not religious, though I most certainly am influenced by Christianity. I don't like going to church or professing the faith because I see too many idiots considering themselves superior because they believe that their religion is the only religion. I'm afraid to end up like that, so I don't commit.

The answer is simple.. Stay away from the "Church of the Idiot Robotic Clones"... Please don't indicate that you believe you are so weak that someone can change you into a goober, in 1 hour a week at a church...

That has to be some kinda powerful joo-joo...

Interesting how some people seem to be talking about the Bible as a hindrance to AIDS prevention in Africa. I don't think the Bible is at all part of the the problem, but even if it were -- it's got nothing on many of Africa's governments.

For example, South Africa's Health Minister said a few weeks ago that garlic and lemon juice were effective treatments for AIDS. SA's president, Thabo Mbeki is on record as saying that he doubts HIV causes AIDS.

I swear, when I read stuff like that, I just want to beat my head against the nearest wall. How has humanity survived for this long?

I was just trying to warn this guy that he is blatantly falling into a trap that jesus warned of. He's trying to say that the bible isnt enough, christ isnt enough (blasphemy of the highest order). According to Goodthoughts you need Benihalioopa or whatever. Jesus is the savior you dont need anyone else. The bible is tyhe word of god and you dont need anyting else. Some Preachers, study guides, or christian fiction books may be helpful or entertaining, but not necessary.

And have you actually tried to have an intelligent conversation with a non Christian who has read the Bible and does not go out for all it offers? I have, and I know that if we as followers of Christ ever want to bring the Truth to the understanding of the many, we must first understand their position and see the world from their eyes. Therefore, if you limit yourself to only the Bible and associated Christian works for instruction, you are setting yourself up for either ignorance or holier-than-thou syndrome, both of which are despised by the world and if you haven't noticed, are related to many of the non Christian responses on these kinda threads. Open your eyes and see what the non Christians are saying. Most cite the horrible reputation of the majority of Christian people as an excuse for refuting Christianity itself. As true Christians, it is up to us to show them that the ones who actually profess to be Christians and profess to KNOW what they're talking about on the subject don't actually go around pushing their "beliefs" on others or being hypocrites, etc. At least I don't. We all have our moments, but learning how to fit in while retaining one's faith is key to keeping our particular faults for standing out as those of the Christian people. Just keep it all something that would attract people who may be interested in it, s'all I gotta say.

Interesting how some people seem to be talking about the Bible as a hindrance to AIDS prevention in Africa. I don't think the Bible is at all part of the the problem, but even if it were -- it's got nothing on many of Africa's governments.

For example, South Africa's Health Minister said a few weeks ago that garlic and lemon juice were effective treatments for AIDS. SA's president, Thabo Mbeki is on record as saying that he doubts HIV causes AIDS.

I swear, when I read stuff like that, I just want to beat my head against the nearest wall. How has humanity survived for this long?

I'm still not sure. I chalk it up to simple mass reproduction and hardiness. Everyone knows the Norsemen and the Germanic tribes were the most badass people ever.

Interesting how some people seem to be talking about the Bible as a hindrance to AIDS prevention in Africa. I don't think the Bible is at all part of the the problem, but even if it were -- it's got nothing on many of Africa's governments.

For example, South Africa's Health Minister said a few weeks ago that garlic and lemon juice were effective treatments for AIDS. SA's president, Thabo Mbeki is on record as saying that he doubts HIV causes AIDS.

I swear, when I read stuff like that, I just want to beat my head against the nearest wall. How has humanity survived for this long?

I have to agree.. Bible can be neither help nor hindrance. No more than say.. a dictionary or encyclopoedia... It's a BOOK! It's not even magic... Not even to Christians... It's just a BOOK...

I agree that Ignorance is the problem, as stated here..

Regards...

Interesting how some people seem to be talking about the Bible as a hindrance to AIDS prevention in Africa. I don't think the Bible is at all part of the the problem, but even if it were -- it's got nothing on many of Africa's governments.

For example, South Africa's Health Minister said a few weeks ago that garlic and lemon juice were effective treatments for AIDS. SA's president, Thabo Mbeki is on record as saying that he doubts HIV causes AIDS.

I swear, when I read stuff like that, I just want to beat my head against the nearest wall. How has humanity survived for this long?

I never said that the Bible was a hindrance to AIDS prevention in Africa. I said, "And AIDS is being spread so, because the African people are not being educated well enough. Some still believe that you can cure your AIDS by having sex with a virgin. Those kinds of beliefs are extremely dangerous like I believe certain religions can be. . . ."

yeah. The bible is basicly a history book with some truth in it. After all, Jesus really did exist. Even Aetheists believe that. We are people. We live on the earth. The bible isn't a bunch of bs written by some crackhead in a drunken rage. It shows us historical events and explains things. To understand Christians does not mean giving up all other knowledge. It means having an open mind about people who view things differently than you and to give up retarded stereotypes of every priests molesting children, christians putting up stakes to burn people on, killing people, etc. When I try to see why someone, say an Aetheist or a muslim, thinks in a way I don't, I ask myself one question: "Why?". I try to answer that question. I don't see the aetheists as bible-burning nutjobs or the muslims as terrorists with bombs strapped to them. I see them as different from me, like everyone else is. You're different from me. I'm different from the guy down the street, etc.

I never said that the Bible was a hindrance to AIDS prevention in Africa. I said, "And AIDS is being spread so, because the African people are not being educated well enough. Some still believe that you can cure your AIDS by having sex with a virgin. Those kinds of beliefs are extremely dangerous like I believe certain religions can be. . . ."

When you say "dangerous like I believe certain religions can be" , can you be a bit more specific... Do you mean Jim Jones Cult dangerous, or do you mean 9/11 fundamentalist Islam dangerous? Or something else "dangerous?"

I find the quote interesting, but I need to understand your meaning..

When you say "dangerous like I believe certain religions can be" , can you be a bit more specific... Do you mean Jim Jones Cult dangerous, or do you mean Fundamental 9/11 Islam dangerous? Or something else "dangerous?"

I find the quote interesting, but I need to understand your meaning..

Maybe Pat Buchanan or Michael Savage dangerous. When folks start believing that gays are waging a war against nature and nature is exacting revenge. When folks think the gays deserve to die of AIDS. Dumb things like that. They cause people to die because of ignorance (or hate) but don't directly kill anyone.

Maybe Pat Buchanan or Michael Savage dangerous. When folks start believing that gays are waging a war against nature and nature is exacting revenge. When folks think the gays deserve to die of AIDS.

Wow... Ok... I see... we were talking about religions being dangerous, and you are giving me Michael Savage an admitted agnostic, if not a neo-athiest.. and Pat Buchannan.. a politician and commentator.

I must have missed the miraculous conversions of both them guys! :D

But in all seriousness, there is no visible tie between either of these "radio and tv personalities" and religion, that I know of... :D But their opinions are completely covered by the first amendment... Free Speech..

AS IF - anyone really can take either of them seriously!


-Regards!

Wow... Ok... I see... we were talking about religions being dangerous, and you are giving me Michael Savage an admitted agnostic, if not a neo-athiest.. and Pat Buchannan.. a politician and commentator.

I must have missed the miraculous conversions of both them guys! :D

But in all seriousness, there is no visible tie between either of these "radio and tv personalities and religion, that I know of... :D

-Regards!

Those guys didn't invent those ideas. I've heard them in Sunday school (or church). And yes, their ideas are protected by the Constitution, but they're still dangerous.

Those guys didn't invent those ideas. I've heard them in Sunday school.

Time to change Sunday Schools.. :D I would never remain associated with any institution that taught things I knew were against the core beliefs of it's founder..

Ideas cannot be dangerous.. Unless you assume everyone is weak and unable to make the correct assessment of those ideas....

Regards!

Those guys didn't invent those ideas. I've heard them in Sunday school (or church). And yes, their ideas are protected by the Constitution, but they're still dangerous.

I'm sorry you did. Those are some bad Sunday Schools. I blame the schools.

Time to change Sunday Schools.. :D I would never remain associated with any institution that taught things I knew were against the core beliefs of it's founder..

Regards!

Trust me, I don't. I'm associated with hardly any religious institutions.

Time to change Sunday Schools.. :D I would never remain associated with any institution that taught things I knew were against the core beliefs of it's founder..

Ideas cannot be dangerous.. Unless you assume everyone is weak and unable to make the correct assessment of those ideas....

Regards!

Some ideas are dangerous. People become indoctrinated, and they don't question those ideas because "God says so."

Trust me, I don't. I'm associated with hardly any religious institutions.

That may not be the correct approach either... That is the same as saying Hitler was bad.. Hitler was German.. therefore all German people must be bad.

See something wrong with that form of conclusion?

Just askin'...

Some ideas are dangerous. People become indoctrinated, and they don't question those ideas because "God says so."

NEVER believe anyone who claims to know the mind of God.... That's why YOU have a copy of the book... Take no one's word for it.... LOOK IT UP YOURSELF!

People are responsible for themselves.. If you have the knowledge of the subject matter.. You can't be BS'd... (Or indoctrinated)

But you can't be lazy and let someone else tell you what God says/thinks/commands... THAT is up to you to find out for yourself.. Else you end up in Guayana drinking some very nasty Kool-Aid..

And that just is 100% preventable... Knowledge IS Power....

That may not be the correct approach either... That is the same as saying Hitler was bad.. Hitler was German.. therefore all German people must be bad.

See something wrong with that form of conclusion?

Just askin'...

Well, I'm agnostic for starters. I believe in evolution. And plus, I'm a liberal.

I have Christian friends, and they're right fine people, but I am not one myself.

Well, I'm agnostic for starters. I believe in evolution. And plus, I'm a liberal.

I have Christian friends, and they're right fine people, but I am not one myself.

Understood.. I figured that pretty much from the start of our conversation... I am sure you do have some right fine Christian friends.. Most of them are right fine people. It's the idiots than tend to get all the "press" or in the news...

Not sure what you mean by "liberal".. I am considered liberal by American standards.... But neither of our beliefs were important for the sake of this conversation...

I just really want to know how you believe that ideas are dangerous.. In what way, and to whom specifically?

Regards!!

Knowledge IS Power....
And Knowing is half the battle!

Yes I am a Christian. I was never indoctrinated into the religion, in fact it was quite the opposite. I use to be what I consider a text-book example of an Agnostic, I believed in God, but didn't really care about what He believed. After much strife in my family and relative life, including nearly all my unlces going to jail, myself getting into things I shouldn't, my family splitting apart into factions and basically getting into big arguing matches over a simple matter, and countless other problems, my mother eventually found a church to go to. At first, going to church for me was just something else to do, something that wasn't required of me, but something to do on Sunday, other than sit around.

I got saved my first time because I felt my mother wanted me to, and I did it primary as an act to strengthen the family. My second time was because I thought when I went to this play about Heaven and Hell I would be required to rededicate myself to Christ. My third time was most funny, I did it during a prayer at my church because I got a funny feeling and believed it to be God speaking to me, and I now realize it wasn't since I was never baptized. Finally, my fourth and final time came around, where I finally believed that God was real and that Christ died on the cross for me, and is the only one (besides God) who can forgive me of my sins.

Funny thing was, each time I got saved I actually did good for awhile, but slowly fell away from church and found myself back into the same problems as before. Finally God knocked me up side the head and showed me my wrongs.

It kind of annoys me when people say that Christians are indoctrinated into the religion. I won't deny that some probably are, but most accept God threw faith alone, and a desire to want to accept him.

To this day I basically challange God daily due that I doubt a lot thanks to my style of thinking, which demands that I think threw everything and try to rationlize it. However, I have yet to outwit God and find a flaw in the Bible, and thus I continue to follow it, even if I follow it with nagging questions. Lol.

Well there you have it. Lol.

And Knowing is half the battle!

And I know that I know that I know...... :)

And have you actually tried to have an intelligent conversation with a non Christian who has read the Bible and does not go out for all it offers? I have, and I know that if we as followers of Christ ever want to bring the Truth to the understanding of the many, we must first understand their position and see the world from their eyes. Therefore, if you limit yourself to only the Bible and associated Christian works for instruction, you are setting yourself up for either ignorance or holier-than-thou syndrome, both of which are despised by the world and if you haven't noticed, are related to many of the non Christian responses on these kinda threads. Open your eyes and see what the non Christians are saying. Most cite the horrible reputation of the majority of Christian people as an excuse for refuting Christianity itself. As true Christians, it is up to us to show them that the ones who actually profess to be Christians and profess to KNOW what they're talking about on the subject don't actually go around pushing their "beliefs" on others or being hypocrites, etc. At least I don't. We all have our moments, but learning how to fit in while retaining one's faith is key to keeping our particular faults for standing out as those of the Christian people. Just keep it all something that would attract people who may be interested in it, s'all I gotta say.

The person I was having a conversation with claimed to have been a christian until he realized that bahai was actually christ. So now he worships that guy. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone, for several posts I was just posting very specific bible passages that warn against exactly the trap that he was falling in to. He claimed to believe in the bible but his new religion contradicts it. Thus it is a good reference in this situation. I have to believe that he (a christian man who has accepted christ as his savior, and then rejected him for some new age religion) is still worth witnessing to. I let the scriptures do the talking. This is a thread about christianity. I didnt make him come in here and post. It's not like I'm trying to convert the mcdonald's employees while waiting for fries. Sometimes its just better to say what you feel.

My third time was most funny, I did it during a prayer at my church because I got a funny feeling and believed it to be God speaking to me, and I now realize it wasn't since I was never baptized.

It kind of annoys me when people say that Christians are indoctrinated into the religion. I won't deny that some probably are, but most accept God threw faith alone, and a desire to want to accept him.

Well there you have it. Lol.

Minor point, since I am at odds with my own organized religion, you mentioned you knew God didn't speak to you because you hadn't been baptized. Are you saying that God doesn't/can't/won't speak to unbaptized people??

Understood.. I figured that pretty much from the start of our conversation... I am sure you do have some right fine Christian friends.. Most of them are right fine people. It's the idiots than tend to get all the "press" or in the news...

Not sure what you mean by "liberal".. I am considered liberal by American standards.... But neither of our beliefs were important for the sake of this conversation...

I just really want to know how you believe that ideas are dangerous.. In what way, and to whom specifically?

Regards!!

These ideas are dangerous, because they lead to action. Some people listen to this anti-gay hate speech, and they read things in the Bible, and they think that it's okay to commit violence against homosexuals. The preacher said so. The Bible says so. So they see nothing wrong with what they are doing, and they cause enormous amounts of harm.

Minor point, since I am at odds with my own organized religion, you mentioned you knew God didn't speak to you because you hadn't been baptized. Are you saying that God doesn't/can't/won't speak to unbaptized people??

No, no, no. Not at all, if he didn't speak to unbaptized people, none of us would be Christians right now.

What I meant was it was more or less a sign to myself. It may have simply been a flaw in the church and forgot to baptize me. Also, the fact that not long after accepting him I fell right back down into an Agnostic...only this time I tended now to directly stand in God's way, I just kind of stepped aside from time to time to hear what he had to say.

The person I was having a conversation with claimed to have been a christian until he realized that bahai was actually christ. So now he worships that guy. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone, for several posts I was just posting very specific bible passages that warn against exactly the trap that he was falling in to. He claimed to believe in the bible but his new religion contradicts it. Thus it is a good reference in this situation. I have to believe that he (a christian man who has accepted christ as his savior, and then rejected him for some new age religion) is still worth witnessing to. I let the scriptures do the talking. This is a thread about christianity. I didnt make him come in here and post. It's not like I'm trying to convert the mcdonald's employees while waiting for fries. Sometimes its just better to say what you feel.

And I did, and it wasn't totally applicable to the situation, but I was still kinda edgy from seeing people on the old thread say "I'm a Christian and you should be too, *insert generic contemporary Christian phrase used to try to convert people in a few funny lines here*" and then people who weren't Christians come in and give legitimate reasons why they either refuted God or were at odds with Him. I forgot that the guy said He had been a Christian until he found Bahai'ism (sp?), and so he would have known the scriptures. or something I just toally lost my train of thought. But....yeah.

No, no, no. Not at all, if he didn't speak to unbaptized people, none of us would be Christians right now.

What I meant was it was more or less a sign to myself. It may have simply been a flaw in the church and forgot to baptize me. Also, the fact that not long after accepting him I fell right back down into an Agnostic...only this time I tended now to directly stand in God's way, I just kind of stepped aside from time to time to hear what he had to say.

Oh. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I see what you meant now.

I am Catholic.

As for why, well, it's always hard to pinpoint a reason for a faith.

I've spent a long time looking for a religion, and the Catholic faith is the only one which not only didn't sound man-made, but seemed God-made. The Catholic worldview is really the only one which, in the long run, truly makes sense. The theology is so, well, divine that I can't help but want to fall to my knees, contemplate and worship.

So to sum up I'd say I'm Catholic because it's the most beautiful hypothesis, and therefore the most likely.

Christ warned that He came not to free people in the physical sensebut the spiritual sense. I could give you a longer answer, but it is late here in Minnesota and I have to get up and drive five hours tomorrow.

But Jews didn't need to be freed in a spiritual sense. G-d made a covenent with us and we have continued to follow it, so our spiritual level was doing fine.


Naginah

I'm still not sure. I chalk it up to simple mass reproduction and hardiness. Everyone knows the Norsemen and the Germanic tribes were the most badass people ever.

LOL, it's zee German ubermenschen hypothesis all over again!

Seriously, Norse mythology is clearly the coolest. I've read Greek, North American Indian, and Aztec stories, but none can compare to how kickass the gods of Asgard are. That's right, ARE.