NationStates Jolt Archive

Here is an article about the uproar over the desecration bit. Why is there no protests over Suicide bombers killing civilians in the name of Islam? Curious isnt it? Thats why I could care less about these protesters. Because they are a bunch of hypocrites. Anyone else tired of the one way Arab street?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/27/muslim.protests.ap/index.html

There are protests about suicide bombers.

Tired of it? Yes. But we do have to deal with it, one way or another.

F*cking with their holy book just to get a rise out of some detainee is just as stupid as their rioting over it. You can choose to be as unreasonable as they are or try to understand the issue within this issue.

I'm REALLY tired of cyclical violence and hate. Eventually one has to rise above that idiocy or it will NEVER end.

They are not criticized or only mildly rebuked because they oppose the US and Isreal. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Although I don't believe most people like the bombings they are willing to turn a blind eye to them as long at it damages the US and President Bush.
It is typical human behavior. The same behavior is performed by all sides in opposition to one another.

There are protests about suicide bombers.
There really is a conspicuous lack of uproar against those yahoos who have hijacked what should be a peaceful religion to their own twisted ideas.

There are protests about suicide bombers.

Willing to accept that notion. Do you have a news link other than that in Iraq about this?

There really is a conspicuous lack of uproar against those yahoos who have hijacked what should be a peaceful religion to their own twisted ideas.
Suicide bombers would say they are fighting a defensive Jihad. Trying to rid their land of foreign invaders.

Willing to accept that notion. Do you have a news link other than that in Iraq about this?

Oh, so now of a sudden you want it to be in Iraq?

Suicide bombers would say they are fighting a defensive Jihad. Trying to rid their land of foreign invaders.
I might even buy that, except for the thousands of innocents they kill inorder to "rid their land of blah blah blah"

I might even buy that, except for the thousands of innocents they kill inorder to "rid their land of blah blah blah"

Funny how killing innocents to oppose us is evil and eradicates any justification that they may have for their position, but us killing innocents to protect our economic interests is "worth it."

Funny how killing innocents to oppose us is evil and eradicates any justification that they may have for their position, but us killing innocents to protect our economic interests is "worth it."

The difference being we accidently kill innocents and are trying to find ways not to kill them in the future.
The terrorist bombers are targeting innocents on purpose.

There are protests against suicide bombers- both by NGO's and international leaders.
The issue of their use is more complex than the usual 'terrorist'- its not a black and white issue and can't be easily labeled as such. They have legitimate reasons for doing what they do (i am not defending the way the do it- but i can understand why they do it), and it gains them the attention (like this thread) that they feel needs to be drawn to their grievences as no one else listens to them.

Its not a black and white issue.

Yeah. They are just cowards who can't get themselves to attack those who can actually defend themselves. There is a difference between accident and intentional acts.

Yeah. They are just cowards who can't get themselves to attack those who can actually defend themselves. There is a difference between accident and intentional acts.

In a way, that is my point- if they only struck military targets regardless of retals, then legitimising their cause and their actions, along with supporting them would be a lot easier. But it is not fair to say 'no one' is protesting suicide bombers- maybe not in the US media, but the world isn't the US media.

Face it, even when bombers attack US troops, its not like the US people will applaud it as the "appropriate target" for a suicide bombing. Nobody WANTS to be bombed, suicide or otherwise. The US troops are "legitimate targets" supposedly, but I've got enough friends in the military to worry every time I watch the news.

That aside, suicide bombers are attacking civilians directly, not military targets. I believe that this is largely because they are not a military force, they are a terrorist force. Criminals, not soldiers.

However this "war on terror" and the "detainee" status created for their incarceration has blurred the legal designation of such people, and thus confusion. We need clear definitions, we need appropriate definitions for those who attack us.

These muddled definitions give rise to a situation where muslim civilians are applauding the death of muslim civilians at the hands of muslim civilians.

It would be laughable if it weren't so sad. The definitions of these terrorists, insurgents, former Iraqi regime members, Taliban, etc, all need to be clear, well defined, and enforcement regulated by these definitions.

H Why is there no protests over Suicide bombers killing civilians in the name of Islam?

omfg like they're the sexxors so cool and all of that new fangled young kid speak and all...

Actually, I'm a leftist and suicide bombers of any persuasion can kiss my fucking ass.

Well i wasn't talking about the suicide bombers in Iraq, i was using Palestine/Israel scenario- which is why its harder to say 'terrorist' 'freedom/guerrilla fighter'.

Iraq is more.... an unconventional resistance- 'insurgency' is not the term o would really apply. But whatever.

These muddled definitions give rise to a situation where muslim civilians are applauding the death of muslim civilians at the hands of muslim civilians.
they are all muslim Civilians...but they are not all the same kind of civileans

there is the Insurgent-Civilians...the Traitor-Civilians...the bystander-Civilians... etc.

Oh, so now of a sudden you want it to be in Iraq?

Maybe you misunderstood Fass. What I would like to see from you proof of anti-suicide bomber rallys other than ones displayed inside Iraq. Of course the Iraqi people will not want these idiots to do this. I would like proof that there muslim brothers outside of the borders of Iraq rally against suicide bombings on civilians.

they are all muslim Civilians...but they are not all the same kind of civileans

there is the Insurgent-Civilians...the Traitor-Civilians...the bystander-Civilians... etc.

You know that, sure. But they are not called that. They are not legally different anymore. Therein lies the problem.

What is the different between an insurgent and a traitor civilian? Which of those definitions applies to a Former Taliban member who is now launching attacks against US troops on the Pakistan border?

What about an Iraqi civilian who takes up arms against US troops in Iraq, does that definition change if he exclusively targets the new regime and not US troops? What about if he just kills civilians in Iraq?

These differences don't exist legally! Nor do they exist anymore in the eyes of the general public. This has turned this war into "US versus them" so to speak, whereby ANY action taken against anything the US does is seen as part of a greater war effort. No matter what it is.

That's a huge problem for all concerned.

... Because protesting terrorists is like protesting conspiracy theorists.

It doesn't improve the situation.

You know that, sure. But they are not called that. They are not legally different anymore. Therein lies the problem.

What is the different between an insurgent and a traitor civilian? Which of those definitions applies to a Former Taliban member who is now launching attacks against US troops on the Pakistan border?

What about an Iraqi civilian who takes up arms against US troops in Iraq, does that definition change if he exclusively targets the new regime and not US troops? What about if he just kills civilians in Iraq?

These differences don't exist legally! Nor do they exist anymore in the eyes of the general public. This has turned this war into "US versus them" so to speak, whereby ANY action taken against anything the US does is seen as part of a greater war effort. No matter what it is.

That's a huge problem for all concerned.Where did I hear that before?

"You're either with us or against us"

...wasnt that Anakin Skywalker?...already deep in the thrall of the dark side...

If only the muslim nations and it's islamic leaders would condemn the act of Suicide bombing.

They haven't. THey say it's 'unislamic'. But does it make the front page? Where's the protestors. Their prefer to hold signboards asking US to get out.

Where did I hear that before?

"You're either with us or against us"

...wasnt that Anakin Skywalker?...already deep in the thrall of the dark side...

Yes, yet it was. (I just saw the movie! MUCH better that I was expecting.)

But my point is this; unless we WANT an US vs THEM/Good vs Evil (where both sides think of themselves as Good), etc. We must find a way to define this situation properly.

When it was US vs Al-Qeda we had a chance to reduce terrorism, when it was US vs Saddam we had a chance to crush a thorn in our side, but when it becomes US vs All Muslims Everywhere...we're ALL screwed. The war will expand, casualties will mount, and the world will polarize.

The people who want the world to polarize and for the war to escalate, are those arrogant in their power, infused with anger, and seduced by the lie that in doing this they will be protecting the ones they loved. Hmm...much like little 'Annykins' there huh? ;)

The rest of us, the stupid people in the middle, who care little for war and power, who need only to defend our little corners of the galaxy, who are not seduced by the dark side nor blinded by the light...We want this war to end at some point, we want the troops back home. We want PEACE, not bloody, awful, phyrric victory. Its the idealists, not the realists, who are driving this war.

a better Q is why do conservatives support torture?

a better Q is why do conservatives support torture?

Oh thats brillant. Go hijack another thread somewhere. Better yet make your own.

But my point is this; unless we WANT an US vs THEM/Good vs Evil (where both sides think of themselves as Good), etc. We must find a way to define this situation properly...Usually combatants on both sides think they are on the good side...and they both comit atrocities in the name of Good...its like that in almost every War...

We must find a way to define this situation properly...
for me... the definition "key" for the Iraq War >>

>> One side is defending thier homeland against an alien Army (different race,different religion, differnt culture, different everything).

...and that Alien power has a track record for installing Puppet governemets.

Suicide bombers and other assorted terrorists are not making any friends in the Muslim world. Look at the attacks against civilians in Iraq. Also this past week there was a suicide bombing at a shrine in Pakistan that killed Sunni, Suffi, and Shia worshippers. If these types of attacks against ordinary muslims continue you'll soon see all support for terrorism in the Muslim world disappear, and see more Muslims willing to cooperate with the west to eradicate the vermin among them.

edited *west not= US*
.. you'll soon see all support for terrorism in the Muslim world disappear, and see more Muslims willing to cooperate with the US...
I can see that already...I can almost feel it[sarcasm/]

I can see it...can you?
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/karachi.jpg
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/27/muslim.protests.ap/story.us.protest.osama.jpg

edited *west not= US*

I can see that already...I can almost feel it[sarcasm/]

I can see it...can you?
]

Snipped pictures of assorted vermin who should have been napalmed.

Do you really beleive that suicide bombers blowing up worshippers at a mosque won't drive moderate muslims away from al quaeda and towards the west?

Do you really beleive that suicide bombers blowing up worshippers at a mosque won't drive moderate muslims away from al quaeda and towards the west?you would have to convince the Muslim populations of the World that AlQuaeda is actually behind the mosque bombings...

<<one day AQ has the genious to acomplish -on 1 single strike- what no other US foe has ever acomplishe before (not the Germans, nor Japan, nor the Soviets)...all with minimum ressources.

<<then next day AQ is stupid enough to shoot himself in the foot.

good luck convincing them.

Here is an article about the uproar over the desecration bit. Why is there no protests over Suicide bombers killing civilians in the name of Islam? Curious isnt it? Thats why I could care less about these protesters. Because they are a bunch of hypocrites. Anyone else tired of the one way Arab street?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/27/muslim.protests.ap/index.html

Yes!

People talk about the "horrors" of places like guantanimo, but never once talk about the abuses that so called Muslim "freedom fighters" commit. Apparantly, sleep deprivation is torture but beheading is no ig deal.

Where are the protesters screaming about how child rape is an acceptable punishment in Sharia law. Or how stoning a woman to death for adultery is somehow now worthy of mention.

you would have to convince the Muslim populations of the World that AlQuaeda is actually behind the mosque bombings...

<<one day AQ has the genious to acomplish what no Other US foe has ever acomplishe before (not the Germans, nor Japan, nor the Soviets)...all with minimum ressources.

<<then next day AQ is stupidid enough to shoot himself in the foot.

good luck convincing them.
If we can't win their hearts and minds we'll bomb their fucking cities into rubble. Either solution works for me.

Tired of it? Yes. But we do have to deal with it, one way or another.

F*cking with their holy book just to get a rise out of some detainee is just as stupid as their rioting over it. You can choose to be as unreasonable as they are or try to understand the issue within this issue.

I'm REALLY tired of cyclical violence and hate. Eventually one has to rise above that idiocy or it will NEVER end.

No, it is not.

One is very much worse than the other, especially when people die. There is no moral equivilency

Of course its a complicated issue. All that i see is that one group blows up busses full of schoolchildren, beheads unarmed journalists and kills civilians, and another group who responds to these.

Of course we can argue till the cows come home about guantanamo and definitions of torture, but these suicide bombers and other radical muslim extremists often have no provokation. Not being muslim seems to be as good a reason as any to kill an unarmed civilian to them. I would support a move to bring maximum force down upon these people.

Anyone want to join me in creating a protest against suicide bombers in trafalgar square? Im sick of only seeing Stop the War parades with their boring banners! :)

If we can't win their hearts and minds......Wuahahahaha...you blew that one Big time. Shok'n'Awe

but thanks for the good laugh anyways. :D

Wuahahahaha...you blew that one Big time. Shok'n'Awe

but thanks for the good laugh anyways. :D
Remember, we have that new MOAB bomb. It stands for Muslims And Other Arabs. (not really, but it might as well) It can take out entire neighborhoods. We don't develop huge thermobaric bombs like that for nothing.

Snipped pictures of assorted vermin who should have been napalmed.

Do you really beleive that suicide bombers blowing up worshippers at a mosque won't drive moderate muslims away from al quaeda and towards the west?

When you are poor, hungry and oppressed, it is hard to be moderate. Especially when the leaders of your only solice(religion) tell you that it is the westerners fault that you are poor hungray and oppressed.

Come to a third world country and see for yourself. The masses do not fault the corrupt demogauges living in palaces, they are ignorant enough to believe the demogauges lies. Politicians here steal millions(in a few cases billions) from money allocated to help the poor, but they are so charismatic and the poor are so clueless that they think these politicians are their friends. They think some far away western power is the cause of their misery instead of looking at the crooks in their own back yards.

Remember, we have that new MOAB bomb. It stands for Muslims And Other Arabs. (not really, but it might as well) It can take out entire neighborhoods. We don't develop huge thermobaric bombs like that for nothing.

(Darth Vader << Emperor Palpatine)

What is thy bidding my master.
It's a disaster the Muslims we're after.
...
...
They will join us or die.

We got deathstar (DeathStar)
We got deathstar (DeathStar)
We got deathstar (DeathStar)
We got deathstar (DeathStar)
And you know that we've got it(DeathStar)
And you know that we've got it(DeathStar)

Copyright 1995-2005 Newgrounds Inc

Ever ask yourself what would cause people to be so desperate that they would be willing to actually commit suicide in order to strike back against a group militarily? What drives them to that point of desperation? It's not just religion--we have people in the US who are just as nut-ball-religious-wacko as any extreme Islamist and yet we don't have suicide bombings, because our standard of living is so much higher.

You see, it's harder to convince someone that God wants them to blow themselves up if they're not faced with an otherwise impossible situation. Palestinians, Iraqis--these people literally have nothing else to lose in their struggles. Attack the problem from that end and you'll see a noticeable reduction in suicide bombings--get rid of the conditions that make it possible to convince people that it's worth doing.

And I'll give you a hint--torturing members of their community and disrespecting their holy books and customs isn't the way to go about it.

F*cking with their holy book just to get a rise out of some detainee is just as stupid as their rioting over it. You can choose to be as unreasonable as they are or try to understand the issue within this issue.

And look at that, it's been proven to be untrue too. It was the PRISONER that was desecrating it.

And look at that, it's been proven to be untrue too. It has NOT been proven to be untrue...

...and it probably happened...If they are willing to get a woman guard to menstruate on his face...then they are certainly willing to flush down a Kquoran

Suicide bombers are sooooo 2003. :rolleyes:

When you are poor, hungry and oppressed, it is hard to be moderate. Especially when the leaders of your only solice(religion) tell you that it is the westerners fault that you are poor hungray and oppressed.

Come to a third world country and see for yourself. The masses do not fault the corrupt demogauges living in palaces, they are ignorant enough to believe the demogauges lies. Politicians here steal millions(in a few cases billions) from money allocated to help the poor, but they are so charismatic and the poor are so clueless that they think these politicians are their friends. They think some far away western power is the cause of their misery instead of looking at the crooks in their own back yards.

This is true and it happened before. Hitler had made the Jews the escape goat for the German people. He convinced them that the Jews were to blame for the poverty and desolation of the German people. It was of course the sanctions and war debt from WWI that was the cause.

I agree that it is easy for a young person with nothing to live for or even better to hope for to strap a bomb to his chest and blow himself and others up. That is why the so called leaders of these terrorist are not sacrificing themselves. If they were so gung ho in there belief they would have martyred themselves long ago in the name of their belief.

It is imperative that we bring the 3rd world nations up to speed and into the fold. Education of the young will go a long way to furthering world peace. Education is and always has been the bane to religious fervor. This goes for all religions not just Islam. Why do you think the Catholic Church is investing so much time and effort into the 3rd world? Advanced nations like the US, the UK, and others with established education systems have educated populations that tend to question religious teachings.

Having said that how do we go about it? When you are dealing with a nation with a corrupt despot as leader how do you force him out?

Economic sanctions? Proven not to be effective. Despots tend to fair well despite the suffering of their people. After all why would they care? So all you do is wind up starving hundreds of people to death while the guy you want removed sits pretty. Then you have the UN trying to offset the pain of the people through various forms of aid that are only being intercepted by the corrupt leader or worse. (Oil for food anyone)

Then how about diplomacy? Sounds good but only works when the leader wants to make a deal for the good of his people and his nation. Concessions are made on both sides but history proven that negotiations favor the aggressor. So years later you wind up having to deal with a greater problem then before.

So, once again you must turn to using force to remove the pain in the ass. Force has been the only constant in the world and oddly enough has resulted in creating peace in the long run. There is an old saying, if you want peace prepare for war.

The insurgents in Iraq are generally made up of foreign fighters and members of the disposed party. They know that if the newly formed Iraqi government is allowed to start providing basic services to the people of Iraq and the general populations quality of life begins to improve they insurgency will become unpopular and die.

An independent Iraq is a threat to every nation in the area that is lead by an oppressive government. That is why Syria and other nations allow the insurgents to cross their borders. They do not want to Iraq people to become a model of independence in the region.

Terrorist are a tool used by those who want to protect their own positions. I think that any protests against them will be discouraged by most Muslim leaders because of this.

That is my 2 cents.

Terrorist are a tool used by those who want to protect their own positions..Terrorism is a tool indeed...we use it...they use it.

No, it is not.

One is very much worse than the other, especially when people die. There is no moral equivilency

Who said moral? This case has nothing at all to do with morality; its about the business of Public Relations. Something that the US desperately needs help with, right now.

I said stupid. It was a stupid, stupid, stupid thing to do, or even be suspected of doing. The riots were a stupid response, but it was their answer to US actions, real or percieved, and guess who pays for their perceptions? The US does!

Look, it doesn't matter in the slightest if it happened or not now! Rashamon effect; it happened in the minds of the people who then rioted. Lies or truth, their opinions on the US matter more that yours or mine, right? Because they are the ones who are more likely to strap bombs to themselves or join the insurgencies.

So one could claim that the flushing never happened, they could show conclusively to the US population that nothing went wrong...and it would make no difference to them at all. They've seen the trends, they've seen how the US protects their own. The US has zero credibility right now; and it gets worse with each event like this one.

they are all muslim Civilians...but they are not all the same kind of civileans

there is the Insurgent-Civilians...the Traitor-Civilians...the bystander-Civilians... etc.

The Insurgent rationality for killing civillians is this, depending on their ideology:

Genuine Iraqi resistance: We kill the civillians because by not resisting alongside us aginst the occupier, they become colloborators like the Iraqi Police and Army, and are then genuine targets for attacks upon the mainframe of the occupation.

Al-Zarqawi and linked groups: We kill the civillians because they have been so corrupted by the infidel way of life, they are no longer good muslims, or muslims at all, and their deaths are acceptable. Shia Muslims we kill because they do not believe in the same path of Islam as us, and are not true muslims either.


The last example has been developed from Egypt, when the President of Egypt was assasinated by Al-Zawhiri's (not to be confused with Al-Zarqawi) group, who is now second in command to Bin Laden, or so we are told.

By killing the president of Egypt, Al-Zawhiri thought this would be a catalyst and reason for the muslims of Egypt to rise up against the dictatorship.

When this did not happen, Al-Zawhiri was so angered, that he reasoned that the only reason why the muslims did not rise up and join his group was because they had become so corrupted from an infidel life, that they were no longer muslims. Thus began bombing campaigns killing civillians in Egypt, which has now been carried over into Iraq by Al-Zarqawi. The national resistance in Iraq also target civillians, but they see them more as colloborative targets for not resisting the occupation.


On the subject of Suicide bombings, is it right? No, but nor is dropping a large bomb from a great height on a crowded city. The results are the same. Death. Destruction. Despair.

indeed, it was a Hamas spokesman who said when answering a query why Hamas used suicide bombers on Israeli targets said "If you gives us F-16's, Tanks and missiles, then we'll stop our suicide bombing."

A suicide bomber is no less vulgar than an rifle, Apache copter or plane or tank or missile doing the same thing to civillians. Differerent methods perhaps, same ends. Not right at all, but such is the disgusting horror that is war, and it's consequences.

Here is an article about the uproar over the desecration bit. Why is there no protests over Suicide bombers killing civilians in the name of Islam? Curious isnt it? Thats why I could care less about these protesters. Because they are a bunch of hypocrites. Anyone else tired of the one way Arab street?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/27/muslim.protests.ap/index.html

For one thing, having a large publicised protest against people who like to blow up people who disagree with them is akin to dancing in front of a tank wearing a big target and yelling "shoot me now, shoot me now!".

Secondly, congratulations on lumping all Arabs together in one sterotyped group. Bravo. :rolleyes:

Thirdly, key Arab figures *have* publically condemned suicide bombers who target civilians.

And fourthly, when suicide bombers blow up their own people to make their point, perhaps those people think it's so blindingly obvious that the bombers are a minority group that they do not condone or support at all, that they don't need to bother protesting against them to prove it.

...Do people go out and picket pick-pockets..?

Who said moral? This case has nothing at all to do with morality; its about the business of Public Relations. Something that the US desperately needs help with, right now.

I said stupid. It was a stupid, stupid, stupid thing to do, or even be suspected of doing. The riots were a stupid response, but it was their answer to US actions, real or percieved, and guess who pays for their perceptions? The US does!

Look, it doesn't matter in the slightest if it happened or not now! Rashamon effect; it happened in the minds of the people who then rioted. Lies or truth, their opinions on the US matter more that yours or mine, right? Because they are the ones who are more likely to strap bombs to themselves or join the insurgencies.

So one could claim that the flushing never happened, they could show conclusively to the US population that nothing went wrong...and it would make no difference to them at all. They've seen the trends, they've seen how the US protects their own. The US has zero credibility right now; and it gets worse with each event like this one.

As far as PR goes, I would have to agree.

In the Middle East: I have little respect for the societies there in general, and it's no surprise that they breed bigoted, hypocritical people.

In the West: No need is felt to protest against suicide bombers, because they are universally condemned. America's actions, on the other hand, are endorsed by many governments and some people.

America's actions, on the other hand, are endorsed by many governments and some people.Interesting

The Insurgent rationality for killing civillians is this, depending on their ideology:

Genuine Iraqi resistance: We kill the civillians because by not resisting alongside us aginst the occupier, they become colloborators like the Iraqi Police and Army, and are then genuine targets for attacks upon the mainframe of the occupation.

I dont think the Insurgents have adopted Bush rationality

The Insurgent rationality for killing civillians is this, depending on their ideology:

Genuine Iraqi resistance: We kill the civillians because by not resisting alongside us aginst the occupier, they become colloborators like the Iraqi Police and Army, and are then genuine targets for attacks upon the mainframe of the occupation.

Al-Zarqawi and linked groups: We kill the civillians because they have been so corrupted by the infidel way of life, they are no longer good muslims, or muslims at all, and their deaths are acceptable. Shia Muslims we kill because they do not believe in the same path of Islam as us, and are not true muslims either.

Aren't some other groups also claiming that innocent people who die in a suicide attack become martyrs and go to Heaven as well?