NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, we can sit here and quibble until the end of time over whether or not the Koran was thrown into a Gitmo toilet, but none of that matters since:

Pentagon Confirms Koran Incidents
'Mishandling' Cases Preceded Guidelines Established in 2003

Pentagon officials said yesterday that investigators have identified five incidents of military guards and an interrogator "mishandling" the Koran at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, but characterized the episodes as minor and said most occurred before specific rules on the treatment of Muslim holy items were issued.

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/26/AR2005052601220.html?


You can sit there all day and talk about how minor you think the incidents were, but the fact of the matter is that none of that means jackshit to an already enraged Muslim who has watched the U.S. desecrate everything he finds holy in the world for years now.

And for once people, all you "good Christians" out there, please, for chrissakes, put the shoe on the other foot for a minute. What if it was your bible being deliberately mishandled and disrespeced. Would you really care how "minor" the incident had been? Would your enemy's government's trite statements about how sorry they were really quell your rage? After seeing you fellow countrymen tortured and humiliated, would you really believe that the incidents were accidents? Would you care?

And is it really such a stretch to understand why Muslims are so upset? Are you really so ignorant that you would sit there in your comfortable little American house, enjoying your plush little American life, and actually wonder why Muslims are upset about this?

A koran was mistreated. So what? It's just a bound deck of paper with writing on it. People need to learn you don't kill over a book. You don't riot over a book. Hell, when people in the Muslim world burn the US flag nobody does anything. It's their right to express themselves. When Palestinians partied in the streets on 9/11 we didn't take action against them. It was their right to express their degenerate opinion. Unfortunately they think that same right shouldn't extend to us.

The thing is most in America dont know and dont want to know about the Islamic Faith. From propaganda and the terrorist attacks on 9/11 they have an intense loathing of it. But they do not understand all about it and can make only generalizations based on the limited information they do have. And even if they had a chance to learn about it they probably would not because it would shatter their rather narrow world view.

How could a Koran fit in a toilet? It certainly couldn't be flushed...

The thing is most in America dont know and dont want to know about the Islamic Faith. From propaganda and the terrorist attacks on 9/11 they have an intense loathing of it. But they do not understand all about it and can make only generalizations based on the limited information they do have. And even if they had a chance to learn about it they probably would not because it would shatter their rather narrow world view.Most in the Muslim world don't know much about America and wouldn't beleive it if they were told the truth because it would shatter their world view. So what? What's this got to do with being able to behave like a human being when someone desecrates a book or burns a flag?

How could a Koran fit in a toilet? It certainly couldn't be flushed...
You have to tear it up first. You know, shred it into little pieces.

A koran was mistreated. So what? It's just a bound deck of paper with writing on it. People need to learn you don't kill over a book. You don't riot over a book. Hell, when people in the Muslim world burn the US flag nobody does anything. It's their right to express themselves. When Palestinians partied in the streets on 9/11 we didn't take action against them. It was their right to express their degenerate opinion. Unfortunately they think that same right shouldn't extend to us.

Hell, I certainly don't care if a bible was used to roll joints, or a koran used to wipe asses, but then again, I'm an atheist. You see, it's not about us, it's about the hearts and minds that we have been supposedly trying, and hopelessly failing, to win over.

If you're going for hearts and minds, common sense states that desecrating the Muslim holy book is not exactly the swiftest plan afoot.

Hell, I certainly don't care if a bible was used to roll joints, or a koran used to wipe asses, but then again, I'm an atheist. You see, it's not about us, it's about the hearts and minds that we have been supposedly trying, and hopelessly failing, to win over.

If you're going for hearts and minds, common sense states that desecrating the Muslim holy book is not exactly the swiftest plan afoot.
True. I can't argue with your point. I'm only saying that when Muslims rioted and killed because the Koran was placed in a toilet it was they who desecrated their religion. People need to learn to tolerate different points of view without violence and to fight back with debate and dissent, not bombs and bullets.

A koran was mistreated. So what? It's just a bound deck of paper with writing on it. People need to learn you don't kill over a book. You don't riot over a book. Hell, when people in the Muslim world burn the US flag nobody does anything. It's their right to express themselves. When Palestinians partied in the streets on 9/11 we didn't take action against them. It was their right to express their degenerate opinion. Unfortunately they think that same right shouldn't extend to us.

Yes it was just a book, just like the Bible, etc. I don't think it was an accident and even if it was its just a book. Unfortunetly most people don't look at it like that (I can imagine a member of the religious right saying its only a book full of your half-truths, here, read my holy book, its better and its right and you're wrong, yet burst into hysteria if the same thing happened to the Bible). Obviously if this did happen it was done to make a point.

Yes it was just a book, just like the Bible, etc. I don't think it was an accident and even if it was its just a book. Unfortunetly most people don't look at it like that (I can imagine a member of the religious right saying its only a book full of your half-truths, here, read my holy book, its better and its right and you're wrong, yet burst into hysteria if the same thing happened to the Bible). Obviously if this did happen it was done to make a point.
I'm absolutely certain that if people in Afghanistan were using bibles for toilet paper there wouldn't be one riot in my country. It's not about the book, it's about the behavior.

Hell, I certainly don't care if a bible was used to roll joints,
Hmmm, the paper is tissue-y...nah, it's an openly agressive/offensive act not in the pot smokers way. Though I have smoked j's that had flags printed on the papers...

Yeah, it would be great if people didn't get all killy over a book, but it would be even greater if we just had enough respect for them and their beliefs that it wouldn't come to that in the first place. Like GB&F, I'm an athiest-but whatever gets people by is on them. I don't have christians picketing outside my home because I'm decent enough to respect their beliefs and not go out of my way to offend them. It's the 'go out of my way' part that is an important distinction. It's my share of the responsibility in the 'lighten up' catagory.

You can sit there all day and talk about how minor you think the incidents were, but the fact of the matter is that none of that means jackshit to an already enraged Muslim who has watched the U.S. desecrate everything he finds holy in the world for years now.

Here we are...the big immoral US who is so godforsaken horrible that we all deserve to die because we don't force our women to completely cover up at all times. The nerve! How dare we criticize lunatic fringe groups of the Islamic faith for attacking our nation? How dare we anger all those Muslims by interrogating people hellbent on attacking us after years of bullshit propaganda being forcefed into their weak minds? How dare we use the one thing they care about, their religion, to try to get at them and therefore protect the citizens of our nation.

I'm tired of people criticizing our nation for the treatment of these criminals who deserve nothing less than death. The fact that they get any trial at all is a goddamned blessing, and one that they hardly are owed. I'm tired of being called immoral by any religion...the thing is...hardcore Christians don't try to kill me for it. Am I going to be unbiased in my assessment of people who want me to die for no other reason than the place I was born and the culture that I grew up in...um...no. The reality is, they bash our culture constantly and consistantly, and we cannot say one word about theirs for fear of the giant, liberal, PC monster lurking behind us all.

Religion is flawed, and is the ultimate thing at fault here, but it's every person's right to believe in whatever they want, as long as it doesn't conflict with societal rules. The sad part is, these "Muslim Terrorists" are hardly followers of Islam, a religion that is peaceful anywhere besides the bastard Middle East. Imagine if all white males were stereotyped by the KKK, or if all black people were either bigots like Jesse Jackson or gangsters who shoot sideways and play basketball to rap music.

Familiar? Stereotypes are a part of life. What we as a planet need are positive Muslim examples. Enough "my religion is better than your's" bullshit. Enough "I'm going to horde oil and try to go to war will all of my neighbors," garbage. Enough Bin Laden and people supporting terrorism, the coward's war. Arabic and Muslim people need to stand up and show the world that they don't support all the things that the stereotypes tell them they do. Unfortunately, as of now, they're failing...miserably...

So here I sit, being told I'm immoral by brainwashed human bombs, too head over heals in twisted religion to recognize sanity, deeply concerned with the future of Islamic people. Ironic how I'm told I'm a bastard that needs to die, and yet I worry for a religion and a sector of the world that will go down in flames if it does not bring itself up. Do I feel sorry for terrorists? No. Do I feel sorry for the fucker who's Koran got flushed? No. Do I feel sorry for all the normal Muslims who have to deal with this bullshit day after day after day? You bet.

We, the immoral west, cannot straighten them out. It has to be from within.

And for once people, all you "good Christians" out there, please, for chrissakes, put the shoe on the other foot for a minute. What if it was your bible being deliberately mishandled and disrespeced. Would you really care how "minor" the incident had been? Would your enemy's government's trite statements about how sorry they were really quell your rage?

Our book isn't even allowed in some Muslim countries. You can be imprisoned for decades and deported for simply owning one in Saudi Arabia, and worse if you're not a tourist. No one demands anything of their governments, and we'd be called intolerant if we questioned it.

A koran was mistreated. So what? It's just a bound deck of paper with writing on it. People need to learn you don't kill over a book. You don't riot over a book. Hell, when people in the Muslim world burn the US flag nobody does anything. It's their right to express themselves. When Palestinians partied in the streets on 9/11 we didn't take action against them. It was their right to express their degenerate opinion. Unfortunately they think that same right shouldn't extend to us.

That is a good response. I believe it is a plain case of hypocracy on this one. This doesn't make it wrong OR right, but it doesn't make it worth defending or justifying their complaints if they are killing people over it.

Here we are...the big immoral US who is so godforsaken horrible that we all deserve to die because we don't force our women to completely cover up at all times. The nerve! How dare we criticize lunatic fringe groups of the Islamic faith for attacking our nation? How dare we anger all those Muslims by interrogating people hellbent on attacking us after years of bullshit propaganda being forcefed into their weak minds? How dare we use the one thing they care about, their religion, to try to get at them and therefore protect the citizens of our nation.

Wow, I've never seen anyone build a better straw man, good going! Shame you now have to knock him down....

I'm tired of people criticizing our nation for the treatment of these criminals who deserve nothing less than death. The fact that they get any trial at all is a goddamned blessing, and one that they hardly are owed. I'm tired of being called immoral by any religion...the thing is...hardcore Christians don't try to kill me for it. Am I going to be unbiased in my assessment of people who want me to die for no other reason than the place I was born and the culture that I grew up in...um...no. The reality is, they bash our culture constantly and consistantly, and we cannot say one word about theirs for fear of the giant, liberal, PC monster lurking behind us all.

Sigh.....where to begin....*shakes head in disbelief*

Look, did it ever occur to you that standing those fools on boxes with electrical cords taped to them, or hanging them from their cell doors, or forcing them to go nude in front of each other might just piss them off a wee bit? I love how in your rush to play the victim, you carefully absolve yourself of all responsibility. Here's another little tid bit of info for your misinformed ass, 90% of the people at Abu Ghraib were of LOW OR NO INTELLIGENCE VALUE!!!!! That means they were not criminals, but were only in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm not going to get into why they really hate us, but I'll give you a few key words:

The Shah of Iran, Britian's and the U.S.'s early 1900 century divide, conquer and colonize attitude toward the middle east, constant resource and land grab just to name a few...go get a history lesson for chrissakes, you're so uninformed it hurts my eyes.

Religion is flawed, and is the ultimate thing at fault here, but it's every person's right to believe in whatever they want, as long as it doesn't conflict with societal rules. The sad part is, these "Muslim Terrorists" are hardly followers of Islam, a religion that is peaceful anywhere besides the bastard Middle East. Imagine if all white males were stereotyped by the KKK, or if all black people were either bigots like Jesse Jackson or gangsters who shoot sideways and play basketball to rap music.

Religion, as I have stated before, is not the issue here. The issue is that we have done the absolute worst and behaved in the dumbest of ways if our intentions were to win these people's hearts and minds. Yes, some Arabs are crazy motherf*ckers, thats a big duh, in the meantime, when you go to the zoo, do you purposely try to piss off the lions to see what they'll do? Or course not.

90% of the people at Abu Ghraib were of LOW OR NO INTELLIGENCE VALUE!!!!!
Sadly this statement applies just as well to the prison guards.

Our book isn't even allowed in some Muslim countries. You can be imprisoned for decades and deported for simply owning one in Saudi Arabia, and worse if you're not a tourist. No one demands anything of their governments, and we'd be called intolerant if we questioned it.

Hey hon, you got an issue with the Saudis? Take it up with Bush, as he walks hand in hand with Prince Abdullah, like they were old lovers or something.

Didn't you get the memo, its hush hush on SA dear, who do you think is paying for this little venture in Iraq? I think you might be at a loss requesting anything from SA, since its nearly impossible to get through to Bush these days.....

To understand this, I believe that you first have to put it into context. Muslims in the third world come from a culture that is still rooted in mideval values. To them, the Quran is litterally the word of God. This is not something that we as a western, secular society can change overnight. If you were to desecrate the bible in 12th century Europe or New England around 1692, I can guarantee you that you would be burned at the stake. Our modern attitude to the bible is a product of the secularization of the western world over a period of more than a century and a half with the industrialization and age of reason.

Hey hon, you got an issue with the Saudis? Take it up with Bush, as he walks hand in hand with Prince Abdullah, like they were old lovers or something.

Didn't you get the memo, its hush hush on SA dear, who do you think is paying for this little venture in Iraq? I think you might be at a loss requesting anything from SA, since its nearly impossible to get through to Bush these days.....
Everyone needs to know what a perverse relationship our nation has with the Saud family. Those fuckers can literally abduct US citizens, and have done so in the past, and the state department protects them from any action and from most bad press.

To understand this, I believe that you first have to put it into context. Muslims in the third world come from a culture that is still rooted in mideval values. To them, the Quran is litterally the word of God. This is not something that we as a western, secular society can change overnight. If you were to desecrate the bible in 12th century Europe or New England around 1692, I can guarantee you that you would be burned at the stake. Our modern attitude to the bible is a product of the secularization of the western world over a period of more than a century and a half with the industrialization and age of reason.

Seconded for emphasis! Couldn't have said it better myself! :)

To understand this, I believe that you first have to put it into context. Muslims in the third world come from a culture that is still rooted in mideval values. To them, the Quran is litterally the word of God. This is not something that we as a western, secular society can change overnight. If you were to desecrate the bible in 12th century Europe or New England around 1692, I can guarantee you that you would be burned at the stake. Our modern attitude to the bible is a product of the secularization of the western world over a period of more than a century and a half with the industrialization and age of reason.
We entered the rennaisance and the enlightenment partly because of the crusades. These wars in Muslim lands might help them get their shit together like the crusades helped us.

This worries me - perhaps we should actually consider that those people are rioting because we have imprisoned people without trial, torture them and such like. Us, the civilised.
Of course, it's not at all hypocritical to say that others bad behaviour justifies our bad behaviour. Because other countries ban our holy books, it's perfectly OK to abuse theirs.
Sorry, am I blind, or is the point of standards to keep them even when others misbehave? If we want the moral high ground, there's no excuse of 'but they're doing it too'.
Of course, just because Saddam tied electrodes to his subjects balls makes it OK for us to tie people to cell ceilings.
And also, have you thought that these 'evil terrorists' might not be evil terrorists? In fact, that's the entire point of giving them trials - because mistakes are made, and we could be imprisoning and torturing innocents. Do the words 'gulag' and KGB spring to mind - imprisoning people on the bear accusation that they were undermining the goveernment? Then torturing them so they incriminate other 'dissidents'?

The logic here is wonderful - we're the civilised West. They're the autocratic, theocratic, illiberal scum. Ergo we can do what we want - we're protecting civilisation.

Nice black and white logic. Of course we're civilised; we allow our soldiers to beat innocent* people to death.

*innocent until proven guilty in a proper court of law - look up the Rule of Law. Most people cite that and democracy the basis of a free society.

I'm not going to get into why they really hate us, but I'll give you a few key words:

The Shah of Iran, Britian's and the U.S.'s early 1900 century divide, conquer and colonize attitude toward the middle east, constant resource and land grab just to name a few...go get a history lesson for chrissakes, you're so uninformed it hurts my eyes.

Religion, as I have stated before, is not the issue here.

Ah...here we go again. First of all, great job attacking the man making the argument and not the argument itself. I'm hardly uninformed...but it seems that you were expecting a history book and not a post. It's a common tactic in all writing to highlight and focus on one aspect, aka religion. Funny thing is, I didn't even do that, yet you attack me for not being even broader in my approach. Oh...and you missed Israel. Way to leave out the big one. Perhaps I "hurt your eyes" because I don't agree with you. Naw...couldn't be. It's cause I'm "uninformed." I'm only a political science major...what would I know?

Now, onto the second part I quoted, to say that religion isn't an issue is to be, as you called me, historically inept. In addition, this is a thread about the trashing of a religious text. If religion is not an issue, then why would the flushing of the Koran be an issue? Why would it even matter? The fact is, it is a religious issue and has always been a religious issue, even throughout the timeline that you briefly supplied.

We entered the rennaisance and the enlightenment partly because of the crusades. These wars in Muslim lands might help them get their shit together like the crusades helped us.

And we're to pay the price for them getting their act together by killing us?

And we're to pay the price for them getting their act together by killing us?
We're going to kill each other anyway. Let's hope that we can teach them something about a modern, secular society while we're at it. That way when we leave they'll be civilised people instead of barbarous savages.

5 accounts of abuse, 2 of them accidental:

-Guards "either accidentally touched a Koran, touched it within the scope of his duties, or did not actually touch the Koran at all."
-In one case, the "abuse" "involved placing two Korans on a television."

Give me a break. We weren't burning them. I doubt the water pressure at Guantanamo Bay could push a thick book down a toilet. Why is everyone so worked up about this? :rolleyes:

I'm only a political science major...what would I know?

Where at? School of the Americas? LOL

Now, onto the second part I quoted, to say that religion isn't an issue is to be, as you called me, historically inept. In addition, this is a thread about the trashing of a religious text. If religion is not an issue, then why would the flushing of the Koran be an issue? Why would it even matter? The fact is, it is a religious issue and has always been a religious issue, even throughout the timeline that you briefly supplied.

Of course it's a religious issue......for THEM. For us, it's a hearts and minds issue, and part of winning hearts and minds is understanding the idiosyncrasies of the people we are attempting to win over. If you're trying to break a horse, you don't walk up, smack the horse, and tell it that it's stupid for being afraid, you talk to it in soothing tones, you humor it's neurosis, you wait as long as it takes for that horse to come to you, even if in your heart of hearts, you know that horse's fears are unfounded.

And this is again, why tossing the koran around like so much rubbish, is a monumentally bad idea in a part of the world that is for all intents and purposes, stuck in the middle ages.

We're going to kill each other anyway. Let's hope that we can teach them something about a modern, secular society while we're at it. That way when we leave they'll be civilised people instead of barbarous savages.

That's a sick way to look at humanity, though. While your's may be the quickest method, there are other ways to teach them those qualities then just letting everyone kill each other.

5 accounts of abuse, 2 of them accidental:

-Guards "either accidentally touched a Koran, touched it within the scope of his duties, or did not actually touch the Koran at all."
-In one case, the "abuse" "involved placing two Korans on a television."

Give me a break. We weren't burning them. I doubt the water pressure at Guantanamo Bay could push a thick book down a toilet. Why is everyone so worked up about this? :rolleyes:

Read Lovfro's post. It will answer your question completely.

That's a sick way to look at humanity, though. While your's may be the quickest method, there are other ways to teach them those qualities then just letting everyone kill each other.
Personally I think violence is in our nature. I think we're going to go on fighting wars for the forseeable future. Hopefully those wars will result in cultural exchange and better understanding.

Hey hon, you got an issue with the Saudis? Take it up with Bush, as he walks hand in hand with Prince Abdullah, like they were old lovers or something.

Didn't you get the memo, its hush hush on SA dear, who do you think is paying for this little venture in Iraq? I think you might be at a loss requesting anything from SA, since its nearly impossible to get through to Bush these days.....

It's not the Saudis. Anyone think a Christian would be given a Bible in any prison in any country in the Middle East, anyone? Bibles have been banned since before anyone had heard of George Bush, and you can be imprisoned or executed for spreading "poisonous beliefs" like Christianity

So now we have Taliban loyalists protesting an uncorroborated rumor, while the Taliban burned hundreds of Korans when they burned down libraries after taking power, not to mention the destruction of ancient Buddhist shrines and sculptures.. and the media decides to treat these protests like reasonable complaints.. the fact remains, if I were in a Turkish or Iranian or pre-war Iraqi prison, I'd never see a bible, and probably be killed if I tried to smuggle one in.

To understand this, I believe that you first have to put it into context.
It's something the US can rectify in 40 minutes and change. If I were a muslim, I'd be scared shitless of the William Techumsa Sherman corner of the American psyche. Everyday the islamists pull the shit they do, and the rest of the world tries to put the black hat on America, the easier that black hat becomes to wear. And don't think Americans aren't perfectly capable of wearing it with pride if it comes to that. As an honest to goodness "liberal" let me express how happy I'd be to wake up every morning to a glass of calcium fortified soy milk and giant iodine pill. Islam has two choices, reform, or deplete our compasion and be annihilated. In both cases I'd vote for sooner rather than later.

Blah blah, what about the innocent.... They should have done something before their religion was hijacked. Consider it an object lesson on the merits of being proactive.

Where at? School of the Americas? LOL


Of course it's a religious issue......for THEM. For us, it's a hearts and minds issue, and part of winning hearts and minds is understanding the idiosyncrasies of the people we are attempting to win over. If you're trying to break a horse, you don't walk up, smack the horse, and tell it that it's stupid for being afraid, you talk to it in soothing tones, you humor it's neurosis, you wait as long as it takes for that horse to come to you, even if in your heart of hearts, you know that horse's fears are unfounded.

And this is again, why tossing the koran around like so much rubbish, is a monumentally bad idea in a part of the world that is for all intents and purposes, stuck in the middle ages.

School of the Americas? Lol...oh you're so funny. You get me everytime.

Once again, you show that you think your opinion is fact and that my opinion is wrong, something an opinion, by nature, cannot be. So we "break our horses" in different ways...that doesn't make one of us right or wrong. However, I do think that people who's job it is to interrogate others is more well versed than you in interrogation methods. Sure...just leave the terrorist in a room and wait until he decides to spill his guts, then talk to him in soothing tones so that you win his heart. Give me a break.

What's rubbish is that our interrogation methods are topics of world-wide debate. The arab world doesn't need to know that we placed a koran in a toilet. The fact that they care so much is only more proof that they should be kept in the dark...especially if they're not willing to leave the dark ages.

It's something the US can rectify in 40 minutes and change. If I were a muslim, I'd be scared shitless of the William Techumsa Sherman corner of the American psyche. Everyday the islamists pull the shit they do, and the rest of the world tries to put the black hat on America, the easier that black hat becomes to wear. And don't think Americans aren't perfectly capable of wearing it with pride if it comes to that. As an honest to goodness "liberal" let me express how happy I'd be to wake up every morning to a glass of calcium fortified soy milk and giant iodine pill. Islam has two choices, reform, or deplete our compasion and be annihilated. In both cases I'd vote for sooner rather than later.

Blah blah, what about the innocent.... They should have done something before their religion was hijacked. Consider it an object lesson on the merits of being proactive.

Genious...

It's not the Saudis. Anyone think a Christian would be given a Bible in any prison in any country in the Middle East, anyone? Bibles have been banned since before anyone had heard of George Bush, and you can be imprisoned or executed for spreading "poisonous beliefs" like Christianity

So now we have Taliban loyalists protesting an uncorroborated rumor, while the Taliban burned hundreds of Korans when they burned down libraries after taking power, not to mention the destruction of ancient Buddhist shrines and sculptures.. and the media decides to treat these protests like reasonable complaints.. the fact remains, if I were in a Turkish or Iranian or pre-war Iraqi prison, I'd never see a bible, and probably be killed if I tried to smuggle one in.

Once again, I cannot say this better than the ultimate wisdom that is Lovfro's post.

We are dealing with a part of the world that is where we were hundreds of years ago. These are people who did not go through a renissance of any kind, did not go through an industrial revolution, did not go through an age of reason. We are dealing with people stuck in a time warp, if you will. In order to win them over, we're going to have to play by their rules, no matter how absurd or unfounded their rules happen to be.

We undertook the challenge of reforming the Muslim world. Personally, I think it was none of our business, but thats neither here nor there at this point. The point is that we are engaged in a war of ideologies, and we are going to have to humor a very ancient and sometimes backwards ideology if we are going to make any headway in convincing them that we're here to help.

It's something the US can rectify in 40 minutes and change. If I were a muslim, I'd be scared shitless of the William Techumsa Sherman corner of the American psyche. Everyday the islamists pull the shit they do, and the rest of the world tries to put the black hat on America, the easier that black hat becomes to wear. And don't think Americans aren't perfectly capable of wearing it with pride if it comes to that. As an honest to goodness "liberal" let me express how happy I'd be to wake up every morning to a glass of calcium fortified soy milk and giant iodine pill. Islam has two choices, reform, or deplete our compasion and be annihilated. In both cases I'd vote for sooner rather than later.

Blah blah, what about the innocent.... They should have done something before their religion was hijacked. Consider it an object lesson on the merits of being proactive.
I'm a liberal too. I sometimes feel the same way. The moderates in Islam really have to take their religion back. We may not nuke the world, but we can and probably will make life very difficult in Muslim countries if we get fed up. By make life difficult I mean constant warfare, ruined economies, and embargos that make the Cuban one look like most favored nation status.

Personally I think violence is in our nature. I think we're going to go on fighting wars for the forseeable future. Hopefully those wars will result in cultural exchange and better understanding.

Eh...like someone said though...it's better to be proactive and work towards a solution. I agree that violence is in our nature, but we can't just sit back and let shit happen.

Once again, I cannot say this better than the ultimate wisdom that is Lovfro's post.

We are dealing with a part of the world that is where we were hundreds of years ago. These are people who did not go through a renissance of any kind, did not go through an industrial revolution, did not go through an age of reason. We are dealing with people stuck in a time warp, if you will. In order to win them over, we're going to have to play by their rules, no matter how absurd or unfounded their rules happen to be.

We undertook the challenge of reforming the Muslim world. Personally, I think it was none of our business, but thats neither here nor there at this point. The point is that we are engaged in a war of ideologies, and we are going to have to humor a very ancient and sometimes backwards ideology if we are going to make any headway in convincing them that we're here to help.

They made it our business when they, unlike any other part of the world (and the whole world was under european influence at one point or another) decided to hold a grudge. We don't fight by their rules, we fight by ours, because our's are better. As I and Kibolonia said, they adapt or die. We don't have to humor people out to destroy us. War is not a boxing match. You don't fight fair.

"break our horses" in different ways...that doesn't make one of us right or wrong. However, I do think that people who's job it is to interrogate others is more well versed than you in interrogation methods. Sure...just leave the terrorist in a room and wait until he decides to spill his guts, then talk to him in soothing tones so that you win his heart. Give me a break.

What's rubbish is that our interrogation methods are topics of world-wide debate. The arab world doesn't need to know that we placed a koran in a toilet. The fact that they care so much is only more proof that they should be kept in the dark...especially if they're not willing to leave the dark ages.

First of all, we shouldn't even be in Iraq. They had no hand in 9/11. We should be in Saudi Arabia cutting off Bin Laden's monetary supply line.....but go tell your friend Bush that.

Second of all, if you think it's ok to stoop to their level, disregard hundreds of years of enlightenment that we've gone through, and they have sorely missed out on, torture no intelligence value prisoners, and desecrate a religion, that for whatever reason, they hold sacrosanct, all I can say is that you and your kind are the harbingers of WW3, and I and my children WILL NOT FIGHT IT!

You will die in the fire of your own making, because, the truth is, as many western soldiers as you can throw on this fire, the eastern world can match you body for body. You will poison this entire world with needless war, only to attempt to bring an uninterested culture around to your deluded way of thinking. What a sad bell it is to toll for the western world, that after so many years of enlightenment, and so many fine achievements, this is still the best we can do...

They made it our business when they, unlike any other part of the world (and the whole world was under european influence at one point or another) decided to hold a grudge. We don't fight by their rules, we fight by ours, because our's are better. As I and Kibolonia said, they adapt or die. We don't have to humor people out to destroy us. War is not a boxing match. You don't fight fair.

No, WE ATTACKED THEM, WE INVADED THEM!!!!!! Period, full stop.

No, WE ATTACKED THEM, WE INVADED THEM!!!!!! Period, full stop.

Europe attacked everyone back in the day. Do you see native americas suicide bombing the spanish, english, and french. Let it go already.

Once again, I cannot say this better than the ultimate wisdom that is Lovfro's post.

We are dealing with a part of the world that is where we were hundreds of years ago. These are people who did not go through a renissance of any kind, did not go through an industrial revolution, did not go through an age of reason. We are dealing with people stuck in a time warp, if you will. In order to win them over, we're going to have to play by their rules, no matter how absurd or unfounded their rules happen to be.

We undertook the challenge of reforming the Muslim world. Personally, I think it was none of our business, but thats neither here nor there at this point. The point is that we are engaged in a war of ideologies, and we are going to have to humor a very ancient and sometimes backwards ideology if we are going to make any headway in convincing them that we're here to help.

Yes, the muslims believe arabic is God's language, the Jews believe Hebrew is God's language, etc. while Christians for example, don't. All the more reason our media should've thought twice before going ahead with an uncorroborated story, not doing the minimum check on their source, that every journalist is taught to do. So now we're poring over nominal breaches of Koran etiquette, while ignoring the blatant hypocrisy of many of these protestors, or even mentioning the wave of murder they've decided these rumors justify. Wonderful.

Europe attacked everyone back in the day. Do you see native americas suicide bombing the spanish, english, and french. Let it go already.

Of course Native Americans are completely toothless, we made them that way, stuck them out on reservations where they could be no harm to anyone but themselves....

Second of all, this is your justification for invading Iraq????? Two wrongs making a right? Honey, you don't need to be a polisci major, you need to go back to kindergarten!

It's something the US can rectify in 40 minutes and change. If I were a muslim, I'd be scared shitless of the William Techumsa Sherman corner of the American psyche. Everyday the islamists pull the shit they do, and the rest of the world tries to put the black hat on America, the easier that black hat becomes to wear. And don't think Americans aren't perfectly capable of wearing it with pride if it comes to that. As an honest to goodness "liberal" let me express how happy I'd be to wake up every morning to a glass of calcium fortified soy milk and giant iodine pill. Islam has two choices, reform, or deplete our compasion and be annihilated. In both cases I'd vote for sooner rather than later.

Blah blah, what about the innocent.... They should have done something before their religion was hijacked. Consider it an object lesson on the merits of being proactive.


Excactely what is it the US can rectify in 40 minutes?

And if the US want to go all gung-ho on the collective muslim ass, then I say go for it, just don't come begging for handouts when the cost of occupying the whole of the Middle East, parts of Africa and parts of Asia bankrupts your economy.

My post was with regards to the current US stance on the problem.

Personally I believe that in going into Iraq, the US played right into the hands of the extremists, who need this confrontation to turn the rest of the muslim world against the US through slights against islam, percived, real or pure propganda as they may be. They need this to constantly replenish their ranks. It didn't work in Afghanistan, because the US let their allies in the Northern Federation lead the assault on the Taliban, so I can assure you that bin Laden exclaimed an "Allah Akhbar" when Bush declared war on Iraq.

Hang on a minute debaters.

Weren't 3 of those 5 incidents mishandling by the prisoners themselves and the other two likely accidental?

Brig. Gen. Jay W. Hood, commander of Joint Task Force Guantanamo, said investigators have looked into 13 specific allegations of Koran desecration at the prison dating to early 2002 and have determined eight of them to be unfounded, lacking credibility or the result of accidental touching of the holy book. Of the five cases of mishandling, three were "very likely" deliberate and two were "very likely accidental,"

Right there in the story.

Here we are...the big immoral US who is so godforsaken horrible that we all deserve to die because we don't force our women to completely cover up at all times. The nerve! How dare we criticize lunatic fringe groups of the Islamic faith for attacking our nation? How dare we anger all those Muslims by interrogating people hellbent on attacking us after years of bullshit propaganda being forcefed into their weak minds? How dare we use the one thing they care about, their religion, to try to get at them and therefore protect the citizens of our nation.

I'm tired of people criticizing our nation for the treatment of these criminals who deserve nothing less than death. The fact that they get any trial at all is a goddamned blessing, and one that they hardly are owed. I'm tired of being called immoral by any religion...the thing is...hardcore Christians don't try to kill me for it. Am I going to be unbiased in my assessment of people who want me to die for no other reason than the place I was born and the culture that I grew up in...um...no. The reality is, they bash our culture constantly and consistantly, and we cannot say one word about theirs for fear of the giant, liberal, PC monster lurking behind us all. [...]
I agree 150%.

First of all, we shouldn't even be in Iraq. They had no hand in 9/11. We should be in Saudi Arabia cutting off Bin Laden's monetary supply line.....but go tell your friend Bush that.

Second of all, if you think it's ok to stoop to their level, disregard hundreds of years of enlightenment that we've gone through, and they have sorely missed out on, torture no intelligence value prisoners, and desecrate a religion, that for whatever reason, they hold sacrosanct, all I can say is that you and your kind are the harbingers of WW3, and I and my children WILL NOT FIGHT IT!

You will die in the fire of your own making, because, the truth is, as many western soldiers as you can throw on this fire, the eastern world can match you body for body. You will poison this entire world with needless war, only to attempt to bring an uninterested culture around to your deluded way of thinking. What a sad bell it is to toll for the western world, that after so many years of enlightenment, and so many fine achievements, this is still the best we can do...

hear hear

Hang on a minute debaters.

Weren't 3 of those 5 incidents mishandling by the prisoners themselves and the other two likely accidental?

Shhh....

Shhh....

No I was actually wrong. The number 5 excluded the mishandling incidents by the prisoners themselves (most of them.)

First of all, we shouldn't even be in Iraq. They had no hand in 9/11. We should be in Saudi Arabia cutting off Bin Laden's monetary supply line.....but go tell your friend Bush that.

Second of all, if you think it's ok to stoop to their level, disregard hundreds of years of enlightenment that we've gone through, and they have sorely missed out on, torture no intelligence value prisoners, and desecrate a religion, that for whatever reason, they hold sacrosanct, all I can say is that you and your kind are the harbingers of WW3, and I and my children WILL NOT FIGHT IT!

You will die in the fire of your own making, because, the truth is, as many western soldiers as you can throw on this fire, the eastern world can match you body for body. You will poison this entire world with needless war, only to attempt to bring an uninterested culture around to your deluded way of thinking. What a sad bell it is to toll for the western world, that after so many years of enlightenment, and so many fine achievements, this is still the best we can do...

Oh my lord...too much beer and food for you, buddy. We'll go paragraph by paragraph.

First of all, I'd love for there to be some place called Al Quidia (spelling of original word?) where we could attack and defeat but ya know what...there isn't. Iraq was a necessary stepping stone, and besides, why wait until Saddam has the weapons to attack us? To think otherwise would be a bit like concluding at the end of the year it was a foolish mistake to buy auto insurance because you went the whole year without a wreck. Bush isn't necessarily my friend, but he's a far better leader than any democrat today could be. Get a platform and a candidate actually worthwhile, then we'll talk.

I'm not the one "stooping to their level." That is you. Hell...you even suggest we do it. Read what you write from now on. Oh, and if I'm leader and you don't want to fight a war, don't join the military. You can still be perfectly productive.

We haven't made the fire, we are fighting it. Also, we're not talking about attacking China and Russia combined here or whatever you were alluding to in your "eastern world" comments. China knows what's going on in the world, the middle east is the place in the dark. The middle east could live the way they wanted if it didn't hurt anyone, but once again, why wait for a middle eastern nuclear war and have the fallout contaminate europe before you decide to do something?

Regardless if this is the best we can do or not, at least we're doing something and not sitting around doing nothing at all as you'd have us do.

I would think that we should not abuse the Koran merely for the pragmatic reason that it can cause us trouble, as it has. This is pragmatic.

Other than that, who cares what we do to their cultural icons? Islam is a culture that is inimical to our own. It is as communism, incompatible to our own system. Muslims will claim that theirs is a religion of education, peace and enlightenment, but reality gives lie to that claim. Communism looked good on paper, too.

As far as our own behavior as thrown around on these posts. Many claim to know history and have no clue. Compared to any nation in the past 100 years, the U.S. has had more positive effect on the world than any other nation or group of nations. Have we done things poorly? Yes. Try and do better? Yes. Wear a hair shirt? I'll leave that to the self-hating sanctimonious liberals who think that all cultures are equally valuable except their own.

Second of all, this is your justification for invading Iraq????? Two wrongs making a right? Honey, you don't need to be a polisci major, you need to go back to kindergarten!

When did I ever said that, *shudder* honey? Read this page we're now on, oh great one, and see my justification for invading Iraq.

Other than that, who cares what we do to their cultural icons? Islam is a culture that is inimical to our own. It is as communism, incompatible to our own system. Muslims will claim that theirs is a religion of education, peace and enlightenment, but reality gives lie to that claim. Communism looked good on paper, too.

As far as our own behavior as thrown around on these posts. Many claim to know history and have no clue. Compared to any nation in the past 100 years, the U.S. has had more positive effect on the world than any other nation or group of nations. Have we done things poorly? Yes. Try and do better? Yes. Wear a hair shirt? I'll leave that to the self-hating sanctimonious liberals who think that all cultures are equally valuable except their own.

Indeed, political correctness is a stain that has to be bleached out of society. Once pride and patriotism are bad, you know something's wrong.

I would think that we should not abuse the Koran merely for the pragmatic reason that it can cause us trouble, as it has. This is pragmatic.



Well yeah, that would be the thing to do. However I dont think the interrogators thought that their actions would become international news. Now that that is leant, I dont suppose they'll do it again. Or if they do they'll make a much better job at covering it up.

I agree with Great Beer and Food, again, but again i also have some grievances. It isn't as though Al Qaeda isn't spreading enough anti-American propaganda without us proving them right. Also, Muslims, as a general rule, take their religion( or insults to their religion) more seriously than any other group on the whole friggin' planet.

I know that some of the twisted interragators @ Guantanamo Bay have professed to being "Christians." But I'm curious: Do you know,for a fact , that all the interragators who have wronged Muslim prisoners have professed to be Christians? The torturing going on @ these prisons goes against everything Jesus ever said, according to the New Testament.

One more question: I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, but have you ever been wronged by Christian, or someone who says they are?
I'm picking up a pattern of intense anger toward Christians in your posts.

First of all, I'd love for there to be some place called Al Quidia (spelling of original word?)

Oh fer chrissakes, its Al Qaeda, jeez, and you're a polisci major? I'd fail you just for that hon. ><

Iraq was a necessary stepping stone,

Iraq was nothing more than the first step in the PNAC agenda, you're a polisci major, you should know what PNAC is without me having to put the website up, again.

and besides, why wait until Saddam has the weapons to attack us?

Yes, why listen to our own team of U.N. weapons inspectors, after all we don't pay them to ACTUALLY give us evidence on current weapons capabilities of the countries we send them to.....

Bush isn't necessarily my friend, but he's a far better leader than any democrat today could be. Get a platform and a candidate actually worthwhile, then we'll talk.

It may surprise you that I'm a Libertarian, not a Democrat, and that I agree with the Libertarian position completely, except for the free market, which I like to call , "the farce market", but thats a whole other post...

I'm not the one "stooping to their level." That is you. Hell...you even suggest we do it. Read what you write from now on.

Yup, that's been me the whole time, calling for the torture of innocents...jeez, when will my schizophrenia quit acting up ><

We haven't made the fire, we are fighting it

You must be kidding me. You honestly believe that the 150+ years we've been dicking around in the Arab world has pissed NO ONE off?

Also, we're not talking about attacking China and Russia combined here or whatever you were alluding to in your "eastern world" comments. China knows what's going on in the world

Hahahaha, China....the dragon at your heels, that you have fed for years now on once American jobs and industry, and who is almost fat enough to turn an bite that hand that feeds? Yes, do tell me more about our great ally, China.

the middle east is the place in the dark. The middle east could live the way they wanted if it didn't hurt anyone, but once again, why wait for a middle eastern nuclear war and have the fallout contaminate europe before you decide to do something?

Yes, why not jump the gun and start WW3, fuck this waiting around business, WAR NOW dammit!

Regardless if this is the best we can do or not, at least we're doing something and not sitting around doing nothing at all as you'd have us do.

Actually, I'd have us making some meaningful forms of diplomatic exchange with the eastern world, but I'm just a fool who doesn't want to die in a nuclear war, wtf do I know.

Yup, that's been me the whole time, calling for the torture of innocents...jeez, when will my schizophrenia quite acting up ><

You must be kidding me. You honestly believe that the 150+ years we've been dicking around in the Arab world has pissed NO ONE off?

Hahahaha, China....the dragon at your heels, that you have fed for years now on once American jobs and industry, and who is almost fat enough to turn an bite that hand that feeds? Yes, do tell me more about our great ally, China.

Yes, why not jump the gun and start WW3, fuck this waiting around business, WAR NOW dammit!

Actually, I'd have us making some meaningful forms of diplomatic exchange with the eastern world, but I'm just a fool who doesn't want to die in a nuclear war, wtf do I know.

Ignoring the bullshit meant to inspire pointless bickering...

1. Did you not say that we have to "do this on their level?" When will your memory start acting up?

2. I don't care if we pissed them off. People get pissed off all the time. I'm pissed at Chirac ignoring his people and trying to get the EU consitution passed. Do I suicide bomb France? Negative.

3. Our great ally china? Remember, you're the one lacking memory here. Where did I say that? I said they had a geopolitical intelligence about them...and if you want to get into it...we own their economy. Lets see their million man army fight without supplies or money.

4. Your humor once again is simply too much. Ha. Haha.

5. What is this eastern world you keep talking about? China? How are they involved? The middle east? You said yourself that they don't understand how it's done today. Why didn't the king of england just sit down with the king of france in europe's middle ages? I'm sure they could have talked things over and worked things out...

I'm picking up a pattern of intense anger toward Christians in your posts.

I suppose this is a question for me....

Yes, I am angry at Christians, for not acting like Christians. For casting aside the true word of Jesus and adopting this odd conglomerate of rightist, Paul of Tarsus, eternal suffering and damnation shit. I'm sick and tired of "repenters on Sunday, sinners on Monday" types. I'm sick and tired of so called Christians making the world's biggest stink out of some brain dead woman in a Florida hospital, while not giving a flying rats ass about the hundreds of Iraqi women and children who die daily, or of the thousands of innocent people who die daily all around the world from simple want of shared resources, resources that Christians think belong solely to them, and thus, should forever allude the mouths of the people who's land they grow, drain, or can be dredged up from.

I'm sick of Christians throwing their religion in my face, when unbeknownst to them, I am a vegan, donate heavily to charity, use only what I need, conserve at every opportunity, and try to live by the words of a man I barely even believe in....but because I don't pray to their little idols, and conform to their lockstep ideology, and *gasp* even dare to put my faith in modern science, I'm bad, I'm evil. Bullshit.

I'm sick of Christians throwing their religion in my face, when unbeknownst to them, I am a vegan, donate heavily to charity, use only what I need, conserve at every opportunity, and try to live by the words of a man I barely even believe in....but because I don't pray to their little idols, and conform to their lockstep ideology, and *gasp* even dare to put my faith in modern science, I'm bad, I'm evil. Bullshit.

There...so we agree...

...minus the whole lifestyle thing. I love cow-products, normally ignore charity, use more than I need, live a life of excess, and live by Jesus's word if it suits me.

Anyhow...I have more meaningful things to do, so reply if you must, but I'll be gone for tonight. Happy trails.

I'm sick of Christians throwing their religion in my face, when unbeknownst to them, I am a vegan, donate heavily to charity, use only what I need, conserve at every opportunity, and try to live by the words of a man I barely even believe in....but because I don't pray to their little idols, and conform to their lockstep ideology, and *gasp* even dare to put my faith in modern science, I'm bad, I'm evil. Bullshit.

http://www.chclibrary.org/micromed/00059820.html

Damn anti-charity idol-worshipping Christians and their oppression of vegans! I've had enough, too!

First of all, we shouldn't even be in Iraq. They had no hand in 9/11. We should be in Saudi Arabia cutting off Bin Laden's monetary supply line.....but go tell your friend Bush that.
Can't disagree with you about Iraq. Americans shouldn't die for other peoples freedoms. They should die for their own freedom, the survivors will appreciate it more.

The age of Enlightenment has one huge lie. A lie that's causing the suffering, and prevented the reformation of the African continent and Arabian peninsula. There's an assumption that people are inherently reasonable and will come to reason if given the chance. This is patently false. All people have some capacity for reason, but as a species we generally elect not to employ it. The vast majority of people living believe in some form of magic or another. This expectation of their willingness to be reasonable is completely irrational on our part as we've seen precious little of it. This false assumption is what's used against us in suicide attacks. They trust so deeply in our unwillingness to "just kill them all," in our belief in the sanctity of their lives in general, that they use that as their sole method of penetrating our defenses. In actuality there's *nothing* stopping the US from killing everyone (up wards of 80% to be sure) in every Muslim country this very evening, from over the horizon. Think about that. The only thing that stops our exercise of this power, of thermonuclear (not atomic) weapons, is the American conscience. Our faith (and it is pure FAITH) in the worth of our enemies. We could kill them from over the horizon with conventional arms too. Or we could even just tell American soldiers to kill everything that moves and isn't American, encouraging them to feed off the enemy. What puts American lives at risk isn't the willingness of an "oppressed people" to take up arms. It's our compassion for them.

My compassion ran out four years ago. And not just when the WTC fell. The final nail was the celebrations in the streets, and when the more moderate Muslims were so vocal about their concern for only themselves. Know why Japanese people don't have to take any shit in American anymore? The way they (the Nisei in particular) stood up in WWII. They absolutely took it upon themselves as a personal mission to erase all doubt. The Muslims took it upon themselves to create more.

As for such a war being unwinnable. Please. In a total war scenario American casualties would be extremely low. They're called force multipliers. And if you don't have to worry about discriminating targets, well we've seen how professional soldiers have come out against the made in the USA label. Where America would suffer would be in the economic consequences of such a course of action (which might well be inevitable anyway). The thing that should be really scary for Muslims is that the sure annihilation of Islamists is something that would be of no small convenience to Russia, China, and India as well.

Ultimately, I use history as a guide. We wouldn't actually need to annihilate all of the Muslims to cause their sudden reformation. Rather, much like Genghis Khan, we would just need to unambiguously demonstrate a great willingness to follow through on that threat, with the occasional reminder. We humans seem to become surprisingly flexible when the choice becomes as simple as the sure point of a sword or relative peace. in a sense the real cruelty inflicted upon the Muslim world was our compassion, our willingness to entertain their inane insanity is, and has been, the source of their strife.

.we own their economy. Lets see their million man army fight without supplies or money.



Yeah, while we drain ourselves dry on this war, going into debt by the trillions, China continues to focus inwards, on their growing economy... the renminbi continues to grow against the U.S. dollar, and the million dollar question:

What if the Chinese stopped underwriting the budget deficit by recycling its huge dollar reserves into U.S. Treasury bonds?

And as China and India, two nuclear countries, tentatively approach each other as allies, you mean to tell me we have nothing to fear from China? Haha, I tell you friend, you are the only one economically minded in this country who thinks so at this point.

In actuality there's *nothing* stopping the US from killing everyone (up wards of 80% to be sure) in every Muslim country this very evening, from over the horizon. Think about that. The only thing that stops our exercise of this power, of thermonuclear (not atomic) weapons, is the American conscience. Our faith (and it is pure FAITH) in the worth of our enemies. We could kill them from over the horizon with conventional arms too. Or we could even just tell American soldiers to kill everything that moves and isn't American, encouraging them to feed off the enemy. What puts American lives at risk isn't the willingness of an "oppressed people" to take up arms. It's our compassion for them.

No, it's the economy. It's purely that if we were to annihilate 80% of the muslim world, we would quickly find ourselves at a direct economical disadvantage as allies refused to do business with us, left over enemies continued to attack us at random until time immorial, and potential customers looked upon us with such scorn as to never do business with us again. That is all. Like you said....too much faith in humanity...this has nothing to do with faith, and everything to do with money.

My compassion ran out four years ago. And not just when the WTC fell. The final nail was the celebrations in the streets

And do you know why they celebrated? Do you have any idea of what the western world has been putting the eastern world through for 150+ years now? With installing puppet governments, stealing resources right and left, sticking our nose where it never belonged, trying to privatize their economies for our own profit? And you wonder why they celebrated? Jeez, and here I was thinking it was a forgone conclusion....

As for such a war being unwinnable. Please. In a total war scenario American casualties would be extremely low. They're called force multipliers. And if you don't have to worry about discriminating targets, well we've seen how professional soldiers have come out against the made in the USA label. Where America would suffer would be in the economic consequences of such a course of action (which might well be inevitable anyway). The thing that should be really scary for Muslims is that the sure annihilation of Islamists is something that would be of no small convenience to Russia, China, and India as well.

And we could also concentrate all of our nukes on the equator, effectively blowing the entire planet in half...weeeeee!! We're cool now. You're point?

Ultimately, I use history as a guide. We wouldn't actually need to annihilate all of the Muslims to cause their sudden reformation. Rather, much like Genghis Khan, we would just need to unambiguously demonstrate a great willingness to follow through on that threat, with the occasional reminder. We humans seem to become surprisingly flexible when the choice becomes as simple as the sure point of a sword or relative peace. in a sense the real cruelty inflicted upon the Muslim world was our compassion, our willingness to entertain their inane insanity is, and has been, the source of their strife.

Well, call me crazy, but I think we should leave the Muslims well enough alone, let them do as they please in their own land, and concentrate on our own crumbling infrastructure. But I guess I must just be completely mad to have that kind of point of veiw here in the time of the fourth reich. I must be nuts to think that live and let live is a decent philosophy. I must be out of my mind to conceive that concentrating on our own faults instead of the faults of others is good business......yes, in the black is white world, I truly am an insane outcast...

If the USA didn't act in order to save itself... How long, in your opinion, would have it taken before Iraq would have attacked USA with its WMD arsenal? a month? three?

Iraq had a WMD arsenal? Well gee friend, it seems you know something that the entire team of U.N. weapons inspectors didn't....or you're a total idiot who doesn't read newspapers:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-02-un-wmd_x.htm

Read. It helps.

Iraq had a WMD arsenal? Well gee friend, it seems you know something that the entire team of U.N. weapons inspectors didn't....or you're a total idiot who doesn't read newspapers:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-02-un-wmd_x.htm

Read. It helps.psst... It was supposed to be sarcasm. I already deleted it... but you had to be fast, didn't you!

No, it's the economy. It's purely that if we were to annihilate 80% of the muslim world, we would quickly find ourselves at a direct economical disadvantage as allies refused to do business with us, left over enemies continued to attack us at random until time immorial, and potential customers looked upon us with such scorn as to never do business with us again. That is all. Like you said....too much faith in humanity...this has nothing to do with faith, and everything to do with money.



And do you know why they celebrated? Do you have any idea of what the western world has been putting the eastern world through for 150+ years now? With installing puppet governments, stealing resources right and left, sticking our nose where it never belonged, trying to privatize their economies for our own profit? And you wonder why they celebrated? Jeez, and here I was thinking it was a forgone conclusion....



And we could also concentrate all of our nukes on the equator, effectively blowing the entire planet in half...weeeeee!! We're cool now. You're point?



Well, call me crazy, but I think we should leave the Muslims well enough alone, let them do as they please in their own land, and concentrate on our own crumbling infrastructure. But I guess I must just be completely mad to have that kind of point of veiw here in the time of the fourth reich. I must be nuts to think that live and let live is a decent philosophy. I must be out of my mind to conceive that concentrating on our own faults instead of the faults of others is good business......yes, in the black is white world, I truly am an insane outcast...


The muslim savages won't leave the rest of the world alone either though.

And for once people, all you "good Christians" out there, please, for chrissakes, put the shoe on the other foot for a minute. What if it was your bible being deliberately mishandled and disrespeced. Would you really care how "minor" the incident had been? Would your enemy's government's trite statements about how sorry they were really quell your rage? After seeing you fellow countrymen tortured and humiliated, would you really believe that the incidents were accidents? Would you care?


Nope. You can burn, flush, piss on, or rip up a Bible for all I care. You see, Christianity says you will answer to God one day - not to me or my friends now.

Religious intolerance is one of the great weaknesses of humanity.


And is it really such a stretch to understand why Muslims are so upset? Are you really so ignorant that you would sit there in your comfortable little American house, enjoying your plush little American life, and actually wonder why Muslims are upset about this?

For me it is. I think you are a whackjob if you get upset about someone flushing ANY book down the toilet. I don't have a problem with burning the Flag or Constitution if you want to either. I'll think your an idiot, but I'll support your right to illustrate your idiocy to the world.

-Tom Steele

...years of bullshit propaganda being forcefed into their weak minds...*Cough*

5 accounts of abuse, 2 of them accidental:

-Guards "either accidentally touched a Koran, touched it within the scope of his duties, or did not actually touch the Koran at all."
-In one case, the "abuse" "involved placing two Korans on a television."

Give me a break. We weren't burning them. I doubt the water pressure at Guantanamo Bay could push a thick book down a toilet. Why is everyone so worked up about this? :rolleyes:
why do people keep insisting that flushing a book down the toilet is a physical impossibility and that because of this the incident could never have happened. its not that hard to tear the pages first.

Europe attacked everyone back in the day. Do you see native americas suicide bombing the spanish, english, and french. Let it go already.
why would they stop if they see it working?

Originally posted by: Great Beer and Food.
I * gasp* even dare to put my fatih in modern science. I'm evil. B#%^@^%$#

So basically, you really dislike conservative Christians? James Dobson and his ilk? I've said so in many of my posts( and you may already be aware of it.) the term " liberal Christian" is not an oxymoron. I'm sick of people insisiting it is!!! A lot of people do seem to just rant about trivial things ( America's right wing is a prime example: They were ranting about the evils of gay marriage in 2004, while little kids were getting butchered in the Sudan.)

Its clear you don't like evangelists, but I won't try to convert you. I'm just asking: Did you know sources outside the Gospel( Jewish scholars, even Mohammed) say that Jesus did miracles?

Originally posted by: Kragnillia

Communism looked good on paper too...

Where do you get off comparing Muslim countries to Communist dictatorships?
I agree that some Muslim countries ( Iran, for example) are pretty screwed up , but believe it or not, there are Muslim countries that are not terror sponsors!!

In fact what the U.S. desperately needs right now( though God only knows how we're gonna get it under this President) is a collection of solid Muslim allies( as in NOT Saudi Arabia) Heck, we could even try actually negotiating in the Middle East instead of treating the Palestinians like crap.

Originally posted by Nidimor:
Where do you get off comparing Muslim countries to Communist dictatorships?
I agree that some Muslim countries ( Iran, for example) are pretty screwed up , but believe it or not, there are Muslim countries that are not terror sponsors!!


So, what are the muslim countries that are not screwed up? What muslim countries can people of other faiths or no faith exist without persecution? Where women are considered equal? Oh, wait, there are none.

Originally posted by: Kragnillia

Where are the Muslim countries where people of other faiths or no faiths can live in peace? Where women are treated equal? Oh wait. There are none.
No nation is perfect, and not every Muslim country goes to the same misogynistic extremes as Saudi Arabia. Women are allowed to vote in Iraq.
( And don't say " Well, that's probably because the U.S. makes them! We may still occupy the country, but the government has a lot of say in what goes on now)

Also, many Muslim women don't see the burka as a symbol of their oppression. Here's the reasoning of a Muslim woman who was interviewed on sociologist/political activst Tony Campolo's radio talk show ( I'm going to paraphrase a bit)

Women in the West go around dressed like sex objects and then, moan and groan " What'd I do to deserve this?!?" when some guy excepts their invitation. The burka forces someone to talk to me as a person. Not a sex object.

Seems like pretty sound logic to me. :)

To Great Beer and Food:

I just want to modify my earlier statements, slightly.
Like I said there are a lot of us liberal Christians out there, but even within the barrel of conservative Christians, there are plenty of GOOD apples. My father is one. He is definitely, not-even-close to where people like James Dobson are( hes a Democrat) but i would still classify him as conservative. So for those who think an adolescent's views cannot differ from that of their parents,( yes i'm a teen) I have one thing to say: Stop drinking H@terade!

It's not the Saudis. Anyone think a Christian would be given a Bible in any prison in any country in the Middle East, anyone? Bibles have been banned since before anyone had heard of George Bush, and you can be imprisoned or executed for spreading "poisonous beliefs" like Christianity

So now we have Taliban loyalists protesting an uncorroborated rumor, while the Taliban burned hundreds of Korans when they burned down libraries after taking power, not to mention the destruction of ancient Buddhist shrines and sculptures.. and the media decides to treat these protests like reasonable complaints.. the fact remains, if I were in a Turkish or Iranian or pre-war Iraqi prison, I'd never see a bible, and probably be killed if I tried to smuggle one in.

The "But they do it..." is not a fucking excuse, child. America, and it's supposed "leadership" is founded by principles... Violation of "our" principles because "they" don't follow them, is the excuse a child uses when confronted with wrong doing.

If you have principles, and are founded by principles, you maintain them, no matter what.... It's becomming painfully obvious, to me as an American, that we as a people cannot seem to abide by our own anymore...

Originally posted by Nidimor:
Where do you get off comparing Muslim countries to Communist dictatorships?
I agree that some Muslim countries ( Iran, for example) are pretty screwed up , but believe it or not, there are Muslim countries that are not terror sponsors!!


So, what are the muslim countries that are not screwed up? What muslim countries can people of other faiths or no faith exist without persecution? Where women are considered equal? Oh, wait, there are none.

A process of change is taking place. Women in Kuwait recently got sufferage, and as stated in another post, women in Iraq enjoy the same liberty. Also, I am not sure about this, but I believe that the palestinian women are also allowed to vote. Women in the western world didn't get sufferage simultaniously.

In Saudi Arabia, more and more women are getting higher education and though they are still restricted as to their fields of employment, it is still a step in the right direction.

I'm only a political science major...what would I know?
Obviously not very much about the real world and her inhabitants? :(

I guess you are oblivious to the fact that this is an international forum and that your words could be used to inspire those that you loath?

Perhaps you will be the next victim of "their weak minds"?

I'm tired of people criticizing our nation for the treatment of these criminals who deserve nothing less than death.
Even the innocent ones?

The fact that they get any trial at all is a goddamned blessing, and one that they hardly are owed.
What are the ideals of America? Is this America's definition of "democracy"?

Do I feel sorry for all the normal Muslims who have to deal with this bullshit day after day after day? You bet.
After reading your tirade, do you even know or care about "normal Muslims"?

If I was a terrorist in the Middle East, I would be making many copies of your rant and pass them out to my colleagues and to as many "normal Muslims" as I could find.

Good job!! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by: Steel Butterfly

I'm tired of people criticizing the U.S. for interrogating these people who deserve nothing less than ....

A little angry aren't we? First off, you must know something I don't: That all the prisoners holed up in Gitmo are ists. That's a load of crap dude. You know what the policy is in Afghanistan as far as % ists" go?

You could walk up to a U.S. soldier, dragging any old bum off the street behind you, and if the guy looks Arab and you say " This dude is an Al Qaeda member" they will take him into custody.

I understand your wanting to protect America from Islamic extremists like Al Qaeda, but as George Bush should have realized today when Amnesty International pointed out the truth about what's going down in Gitmo, the more we sit around and do nothing about these atrocities American interrogators are committing, the easier it will be for Al Qaeda to convince young Muslim men to join them.

Apparently Amnesty International "disassembled." In George Ws language it means " to not tell the truth" :D Seriously, the dude misspeaks more than Ronald Reagan did, and he had Alzheimers!

The thing is most in America dont know and dont want to know about the Islamic Faith. From propaganda and the terrorist attacks on 9/11 they have an intense loathing of it. But they do not understand all about it and can make only generalizations based on the limited information they do have. And even if they had a chance to learn about it they probably would not because it would shatter their rather narrow world view.
Frankly we are not the only ones that are encumbered with that narrow point of view … a lot of groups look at each other with that same narrowness

Reading this article we have 5 confirmed cases of Qu'ran desecration. Two of those were unintentional, while 3 were intentional. The desecration involved seems to merely be touching the Qu'ran.
There are 15 confirmed cases of Muslims desecrating the Qu'ran. And one of those desecrations involved ripping out pages and stuffing them in the toilet.
Newsweek should have reported on the far more common desecrations caused by Muslims.
There is no story here. Most of the accounts of American desecration is rumor at best.