NationStates Jolt Archive

The meeting of my local school board for uniforms is about to come in a couple of weeks, so I need some good sites or facts against school uniforms. This is not a debate.

Why would you be against them?

Why would you be against them?

'cos he doesn't want to wear one?

Because they demand extra expense in clothing from the parents, they enforce a bland stereotypical sense of identity, they repress freedom of expression, and they look horrible normally.

Enough reasons for you Fass?

How about being for them?? Because it means people cant stand out, therefore people cannot be teased for not having the most up to date trainers or the best clothes, if everyone wears a school uniform then poor kids wont be picked on for not having all the latest clothes.

I mean its ok not to have school uniforms later on, 16+, but at young age kids grow up fast anyway, which means all the clothes that are bought for school (if there is no uniform) will be too small and new ones will be needed

I'm against them, simply because they're designed by people who won't have to wear them, so normally they end up being scratchy, irritating, and expensive.

And of course, they don't DO anything worth measuring.

i support Alien Born. that was perfectly stated. i cant think of any more to add.

Uniforms are fascistic and stifle free expression. The Nazis had uniforms.

Because they demand extra expense in clothing from the parents, they enforce a bland stereotypical sense of identity, they repress freedom of expression, and they look horrible normally.

Enough reasons for you Fass?

Apart from the first point (school blazers are ridiculously expensive though to be fair so is buying all up-to date clothes and stuff) that is complete rubbish. The only itchy trousers I have had are ones that were bought for a wedding and weren't school trousers and those sports trousers that are plasticky and rustle really piss me off. Sorry if this makes it a debate

Uniforms are fascistic and stifle free expression. The Nazis had uniforms.

thats ridiculous and you know it. What's so good about free expression anyway? Piss off and express yourself somewhere a long way away

Because they demand extra expense in clothing from the parents, they enforce a bland stereotypical sense of identity, they repress freedom of expression, and they look horrible normally.

Enough reasons for you Fass?Personally, and I don't begrudge your opposition to them, most of the above reasons (or their inverse) are why I think uniforms are good...

There's one uniform for school, so the expense of kitting up the kid with the latest fashions day in/day out is removed. While kids may need other clothes to circulate in their social circles outside school, it is circles they choose, whereas everyone is on display to everyone at school and non-uniform establishments mean kids of poorer families are easily noticed by the richer ones (where they wouldn't meet, outside).

You say "blandstereotypical sense of identity", I say "belonging to an establishment". Uniforms make the man (/woman/child), removes the class differences (see above) and generally smoothes everyone over. Doesn't stop each person having a personality, but it builds a better community (if nothing else, because everybody hates the uniform... ;))

Freedom of expression is not only possible in all but the most sctrict uniformed regimes but can be more outgoing for its enforced subtlety. The way the tie is tied, the way the badge on the blazer is *cough* defaced. The length of the skirts, the manner of the trousers. There's no greater rebellion than having a school tie worn in just the right way... In a non-uniform situation, what sort of rebellion can there be when 'anything goes'?

As for looking horrible, well, maybe, but that just adds to the challenge of the above... ;)

Uniforms are fascistic and stifle free expression. The Nazis had uniforms.

The Allies also wore uniforms.

Another major problem is the people who advocate uniforms are not the age that will end up wearing them. Now, if a bunch of KIDS came up and said, "We want uniforms," I might say "Ok, whatever." But it's always middle-aged/elderly who advocate uniforms.

My school had the full blazer, shirt, tie thing but then dropped for just a jumper & tshirt. Chances are you are going to have to wear a uniform when you go to work so your might aswell get used to it.

They aren't going to cede the uniform right away, so why not argue for a compromise. an example uniform would be:

Any footgear
Blue or black trousers/skirt. No length restrictions on the skirt. :D
A white shirt/blouse.
Possibly a tie.
The option of a black or grey jumper.

This is basically what we have in my school. No-one moans about it. It does not have any:

Stupid blazers
Silly hats
Daft socks
et cetera

In fact, you could argue that since most workplaces have a code similar to the uniform proposed, it is better for the transition from school into work. It's a grass roots approach that has a higher chance of success. You can barter for more reductions later. Unless this is your uniform, in which case the is not much I can suggest.

Uniforms are fascistic and stifle free expression. The Nazis had uniforms.
nazis have uniforms
schools have uniforms
schools = nazis
what???

The meeting of my local school board for uniforms is about to come in a couple of weeks, so I need some good sites or facts against school uniforms. This is not a debate.
Well, there's always the "it hinders individuality and personal expression" arguement.

Here's the Google directory section on the issue of school uniforms. (http://www.google.com/Top/Society/Issues/Human_Rights_and_Liberties/Free_Speech/Artistic_Expression/Uniforms/)

I like school uniforms. You don't have to think about what you are going to wear in the morning and I personally think it saves money as you don't have to buy all the latest fashion. I also think it gives a sense of identity and belonging to something...but then I suppose that wouldn't appeal to all those people who would like nothing better than to see their school burned to the ground.

I think highschool girls should be forced to wear uniforms. That uniform should be hiking boots, knee socks, denim short shorts, halter-top and pigtails.

Uniforms are fascistic and stifle free expression. The Nazis had uniforms.And do you know why they had uniforms? Even the litter-pickers and all similar menial jobs? Because it gives someone a sense of belonging. You may only pick up litter, but you're officially picking up litter... You're not just some crazy busybody who shouts at people who drop litter, you're the person who is charged with dealing with them...

Self-esteem, my friend. You may hate your job, but you'd hate it more without that nice uniform they designed for you...

(Note that even the various stars/triangles of sub-culture identification enhanced the sub-culture self-identification, though the excesses and prejudices of Naziism obviously weren't particular conducive to the long-term survival of some of them. That's a separate issue, and I want to stop short of the usual extension to Godwin's Law.)

School uniforms are the latest in a long stream of measures designed to limit creativity in children... WE NEED MORE ARTISTS AND LESS MINDLESS SHEEP

thats ridiculous and you know it. What's so good about free expression anyway? Piss off and express yourself somewhere a long way away
that point might be valid if this wasn't a public school.

School uniforms are the latest in a long stream of measures designed to limit creativity in children... WE NEED MORE ARTISTS AND LESS MINDLESS SHEEP

Yes but everyone would be a sheep and dress mostly the same or join little groups anyway. This limits creativity in children

thats ridiculous and you know it. What's so good about free expression anyway? Piss off and express yourself somewhere a long way away


nazis have uniforms
schools have uniforms
schools = nazis
what???


The Allies also wore uniforms.
Irony:

i·ro·ny
1. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
2. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.

Learn it, love it, recognize it.

Suggest that they read Neitzsche. "Thus spoke Zarathustra" would do to start with.

Another major problem is the people who advocate uniforms are not the age that will end up wearing them. Now, if a bunch of KIDS came up and said, "We want uniforms," I might say "Ok, whatever." But it's always middle-aged/elderly who advocate uniforms.
good point. for the original poster just say that we live in a democracy, have a vote and let the kids decide. and when they try to counter with "well we were elected" then say that children weren't allowed to vote and they don't represent them.
if all else fails get a lawyer and file a restraining order or threaten to file charges in a FEDERAL court.

School uniforms are the latest in a long stream of measures designed to limit creativity in children... WE NEED MORE ARTISTS AND LESS MINDLESS SHEEP

There are already a ton of children that are mindless sheep who go along with the latest fashion, and have never had to wear a uniform in their life.

Because they demand extra expense in clothing from the parents, they enforce a bland stereotypical sense of identity, they repress freedom of expression, and they look horrible normally.

Enough reasons for you Fass?


This comming from the experience of 9 years of uniforms and although we all hated them at the time, they didn't do any of the above. They arn't very expensive at all, and considering the fact that I wear abercrombie and american eagle clothes, they are quite the financial alternative. As for a bland stereotypical sense of identity and the freedom of expression, you should know that what someone weaers can't possible dictate their personality. We all had the same uniforms, we didn't look alike. I don't know what kind of freedom of expression you really need, or maybe we just arn't those stupid kids that wear stuff hoping to piss the other students and teachers off. Oh, and I have to say, a white polo shirt with dockers looks pretty nice. Maybe I'm the only kid that likes wearing a collard shirt (AE, and AF again..) but our uniforms looked nice.

Heres a point: We should have school uniforms just because it makes it so easy to rebel all you have to do is take off your tie and all the teachers are shouting at you.

I like school uniforms. You don't have to think about what you are going to wear in the morning and I personally think it saves money as you don't have to buy all the latest fashion. I also think it gives a sense of identity and belonging to something...but then I suppose that wouldn't appeal to all those people who would like nothing better than to see their school burned to the ground.
no ones forcing anyone to "buy all the latest fashion." i'd know im in school. you dont have to "think about what you are going to wear in teh morning" either. trust me this is all either bull shit propoganda or information coming from speculation made by someone who knows nothing about kids.

Irony:

i·ro·ny
1. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
2. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.

Learn it, love it, recognize it.

Bugger:

bug·ger

An exclamation to a really bad occurence
Oh bugger, I got my nose caught in the toaster again

Heres a point: We should have school uniforms just because it makes it so easy to rebel all you have to do is take off your tie and all the teachers are shouting at you.
In my public school, all you had to do to rebel was bring a toy gun for a GI Joe to school, or gum/candy, or electronics of any sort, or wear a second earring, or...

I'm so glad I'm homeschooled now.

Hampton City Public Schools implimented Student Uniform, and Uniform Dress Code policies back in 1993 (Mostly in Elementary and Middle).... Still in effect, and expanding to more schools. Each school has its own uniform policy, and standards for uniforms.

The school system provides resources to parents for uniform requirements. To make sure their child is meeting the particular standards set by the school for dress.

Since implimentation in the Elementary schools, overall achievment levels and classroom attititudes have improved.

The purpose of the school system is to train and rear children in basic educational needs... It is a students job to learn, and uniforms help facilitate that.

ok how about this...I'm still at school and I like my uniform!!! *shock* :eek:
I only know of one school in my area (or to think about it in N.I) that has no uniform and it is a primary school...but there may be more somewhere

Bugger:

bug·ger

An exclamation to a really bad occurence
Oh bugger, I got my nose caught in the toaster again

See also:
Sodomise (sod-o-mise)
Twat (tw-at)

Well, it had to be mentioned. I hate incomplete definitions.

Yes but everyone would be a sheep and dress mostly the same or join little groups anyway. This limits creativity in children
incorrect. everyone wouldnt. in fact, most wouldnt. in fact, only a few would. and if they want to, thats their choice. its not the school boards right to impose their beliefs on people whether they be children or not.

I'm a softmore at jacksonville state university. I saw a film back when I was in high school that showed school uniforms. But I must confess it was hard to understand because the narration was in GERMAN! Its bad enough in high school they try to get all the kids to think alike. Now they want them to dress alike too. The only hope I can offer you man is to take and grit your teeth through it. If you choose to go to college, you will find things are much more sensible there.

Beyond seeing how many people I could make feel stupid with one post, I actually have something to say on the issue.

School uniforms are bad. The "fascistic" charge is excessive, certainly, but they do promote a dangerous sort of groupthink mentality. Dressing uniform-style homongenizes the students, destroying their individual identity - it's essentially away of making them faceless to the teachers, someTHING to impart knowledge to but not to know and understand as individuals.

Additionally, dressing yourself is an important life skill. It's corny, but true. It's hard to develop a fashion sense when your choices are identitical blazer one and identical blazer two.

Further, they can marginalize students. People who don't look good in school uniforms (particularly true for girls) get teased incessantly, sometimes provoking desperate actions to prove they're "cool."

Finally, I know of no school which allows for divergent perspectives on issues that makes uniforms mandatory. Learning one perspective and not learning anything about different ways the world might function is a shitty form of education.

See also:
Sodomise (sod-o-mise)
Twat (tw-at)

Well, it had to be mentioned. I hate incomplete definitions.

I decided not to include the various other meanings of the word, to avoid any confusion about what I meant.

no ones forcing anyone to "buy all the latest fashion." i'd know im in school. you dont have to "think about what you are going to wear in teh morning" either. trust me this is all either bull shit propoganda or information coming from speculation made by someone who knows nothing about kids.

Which country/state/city/town do you live in ?
And is there much diversity in clothing style to begin with ?

I tend to agree with the people in favour of uniforms. At school it should not be about the price of your sneakers - and a uniform stimulates being original and selfexpression through subtleties much, much more.

Every state school in England has school uniform and our education system is less fucked up than the American's.

And do you know why they had uniforms? Even the litter-pickers and all similar menial jobs? Because it gives someone a sense of belonging. You may only pick up litter, but you're officially picking up litter... You're not just some crazy busybody who shouts at people who drop litter, you're the person who is charged with dealing with them...

Self-esteem, my friend. You may hate your job, but you'd hate it more without that nice uniform they designed for you...

(Note that even the various stars/triangles of sub-culture identification enhanced the sub-culture self-identification, though the excesses and prejudices of Naziism obviously weren't particular conducive to the long-term survival of some of them. That's a separate issue, and I want to stop short of the usual extension to Godwin's Law.)
I won't define irony again; simply chuckle that you wrote a 3 paragraph response to that sort of joke.

Anyway, uniforms in menial jobs generally don't improve morale after some time at the job. There's an initial rush, but soon it becomes a hated symbol of a hated job. How many times have you heard people complain about having to put on their uniforms? I have, a lot.

Have you seen Office Space?

They arn't very expensive at all, and considering the fact that I wear abercrombie and american eagle clothes, they are quite the financial alternative.
irrelevant, you choose to wear stupid clothes. you cant force other people to wear stupid clothes. saying simply, no offensive messages on shirts allowed is acceptable. a uniform is not.

Personally, I don't have an opinion on school uniforms. They have their ups and downs. But one thing I have noticed is, and this may or may not have anything to do with uniforms, my cousin goes to a Catholic school and wears a uniform, but OUTSIDE of school she dresses absolutely awful. She wears WAY too tight jeans and shirts. You'd think that she would be all clean and pure since she goes to a Catholic school, but I wonder if the fact that they wear uniforms encourages them to be exactly the oppositie of what is expected of them when they are outside of school. This is just speculation, and could be completely wrong, so if you don't agree, don't bite my head off.

School uniforms are bad. The "fascistic" charge is excessive, certainly, but they do promote a dangerous sort of groupthink mentality. Dressing uniform-style homongenizes the students, destroying their individual identity - it's essentially away of making them faceless to the teachers, someTHING to impart knowledge to but not to know and understand as individuals.

You obviously have never worn a uniform. I've gone from elementary and middle school with uniforms to high school without. You have no idea how rediculous this paragraph sounds, our personalities were never harmed because we wore uniforms! They don't turn kids into clones no matter how much you want to believe that. In fact, if I had to choose I would say the teachers were much more personal when we had uniforms compared to when we did not. Nothing you stated in there is a practical statement, just more stereotyping.



Additionally, dressing yourself is an important life skill. It's corny, but true. It's hard to develop a fashion sense when your choices are identitical blazer one and identical blazer two.

What about weekends? Summer? I never faced any trouble with that issue.

Further, they can marginalize students. People who don't look good in school uniforms (particularly true for girls) get teased incessantly, sometimes provoking desperate actions to prove they're "cool."

People who don't look good get teased period. Teasing occurs in every school regardless of what they are wearing. Nope, none of our girls ever did drugs to balance out the fact that their skirt was too long for the rest of us.

Finally, I know of no school which allows for divergent perspectives on issues that makes uniforms mandatory. Learning one perspective and not learning anything about different ways the world might function is a shitty form of education.


What?

ok how about this...I'm still at school and I like my uniform!!! *shock* :eek:
I only know of one school in my area (or to think about it in N.I) that has no uniform and it is a primary school...but there may be more somewhere
exactly! because you believe something is right, everyone should be forced to do it!

I'm a softmore at jacksonville state university. I saw a film back when I was in high school that showed school uniforms. But I must confess it was hard to understand because the narration was in GERMAN! Its bad enough in high school they try to get all the kids to think alike. Now they want them to dress alike too. The only hope I can offer you man is to take and grit your teeth through it. If you choose to go to college, you will find things are much more sensible there.
please dont plagiarizeGeorge Carlin.

irrelevant, you choose to wear stupid clothes. you cant force other people to wear stupid clothes. saying simply, no offensive messages on shirts allowed is acceptable. a uniform is not.


Regardless of my personal preference, the fact still is: They are not expensive. Maybe you missed that? You can call my clothes stupid all you want that's not what I was talking about. The uniforms were cheap.

Oh, and don't give me that conformity crap. What I wear looks good, not my fault if it's too expensive for you.

Which country/state/city/town do you live in ?
And is there much diversity in clothing style to begin with ?

I tend to agree with the people in favour of uniforms. At school it should not be about the price of your sneakers - and a uniform stimulates being original and selfexpression through subtleties much, much more.
1. ive lived in Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Washington D.C. it was not true in any of these places.
2. yes
3. thats too bad
4. it isn't
5. in your opinion. why impose your beliefs on other people?

Every state school in England has school uniform and our education system is less fucked up than the American's.
observational studies do not prove causality.

Uniforms are fascistic and stifle free expression. The Nazis had uniforms.

The U.S. military wears uniforms. Are they fascist for wearing uniforms as well?

Regardless of my personal preference, the fact still is: They are not expensive. Maybe you missed that? You can call my clothes stupid all you want that's not what I was talking about. The uniforms were cheap.

Oh, and don't give me that conformity crap. What I wear looks good, not my fault if it's too expensive for you.
1. price is irrelevant to the discussion either way
2. nope
3. i said it was stupid of you to say that because you sound as if your only alternative to buying overpriced clothes was a school uniform for everyone in the school
4. irrelevant
5. you are attempting to force people to conform to your views, do you see the crap?
6. actually i can afford it. whether or not i can afford it is irrelevant.

The U.S. military wears uniforms. Are they fascist for wearing uniforms as well?
no one is forced to join the military (not counting the draft). if you dont want to wear a uniform, dont join the military. children are forced to go to school, as a result they have no choce.

1. price is irrelevant to the discussion either way
2. nope
3. i said it was stupid of you to say that because you sound as if your only alternative to buying overpriced clothes was a school uniform for everyone in the school
4. irrelevant
5. you are attempting to force people to conform to your views, do you see the crap?
6. actually i can afford it. whether or not i can afford it is irrelevant.

Okay, I should probably stay out of this, but aren't you overreacting just a tad? *hides*

Okay, I should probably stay out of this, but aren't you overreacting just a tad? *hides*
im sorry, i become a little upset when someone tries to trample over others rights.

"a bland stereotypical sense of identity" is absolutely no argument against it. Like baggy pants and stuff like rap-"inspired" "clothing" isn't completely stereotypical (and tasteless). Maybe it'll help getting some discipline in the kids. And if they're not forced to go with what the school thinks they should wear in school, then they're forced to follow "fashion" (no matter how tasteless it is and how shitty it looks, take all the fat kids with those revealing clothes... ugh...).

'Sides... it works in the UK and other countries (consider for example that in Japan school have issued requests of former students not selling their uniforms, they're quite popular there). I wish we'd have had uniforms back in my schooldays.

im sorry, i become a little upset when someone tries to trample over others rights.

I just wasn't sure if you knew how touchy you were coming off. I understand why you were upset, but I know from experience that it won't help to freak out.

im sorry, i become a little upset when someone tries to trample over others rights.


Man, I wish you went to my school, I'd show you what "rights" you think you have. I never told anyone to do anything, how is that making someone conform to my views?

no one is forced to join the military (not counting the draft). if you dont want to wear a uniform, dont join the military. children are forced to go to school, as a result they have no choce.

Actually, most workplaces have some kind of uniform or dress code. This can be for safety reasons (firemen) or to look impressive for the Board of Directors.

Whilst I hate the uniforms with blazers, or codes on hair styles et cetera, the kind of uniform in my school (as outlined earlier) is pretty good as it helps them get used to a dress code early on.

5. in your opinion. why impose your beliefs on other people?

Because those other people are children in this case ?
Show me that wearing an uniform reduces creativity instead of enhancing it or that it offers any disadvantages other than "they look bad" and I'll be the first to fight them. Otherwise I'll consider the opinion of the school in question as the best researched and informed.

having school uniforms is really stupid. Because it just is having schools have them makes them like black and white you know what I mean.
:mad:

Uniforms should be allowed in private schools but not in public schools because public schools are government run, so they should follow the law, not the school's own rules that some sadistic idiots who want to torture children come up with. People are allowed to wear anything they want, as long as it is not indecent. The same rule should apply to children in public schools. If poor parents don't want their kids to have an inferiority complex from lack of fashionable clothing, they can send them to a private school. And don't tell me that private schools would be too expensive; there are a lot of private schools that will let people get in for free if they show they have low income. And the school will pay for the uniform.

no one is forced to join the military (not counting the draft). if you dont want to wear a uniform, dont join the military. children are forced to go to school, as a result they have no choce.

Your point? The dress codes in most places is more strict than school uniforms. Might as well get used to it.

having school uniforms is really stupid. Because it just is having schools have them makes them like black and white you know what I mean.


Actually no. I did not understand that!

If I may quote Bill Clinton on this one:

"School uniforms are the perfect example of a youth party being formed, it worked with Hitler in WWII."

Seriously people. That's why we have school uniforms, it's to get everyone to look EXACTLY the same, so you're essentially being stripped of your individuality. I'm not AGAINST school uniforms, unless they're those grey/pistacchio flannel looking ones that the Hitler youth wore. If you're going to incorporate a school uniform at least make it look cool. So all in all, school uniforms are a good idea ... as long as it follows loose guidelines - like say - a T-shirt and jeans or something. It would work and kids could still express themselves.

I'm on the fence. I can't really decide either way.

I think the whole "the poor kids won't have the newest clothes" thing is bullshit because most public schools have students from a particular neighborhood, which means that all the students would be in the same wealth category, thus meaning that they could buy the same clothes. Also, this excuse could lead into debates about poor kids not having all kinds of other things that would "hurt their feelings". My parents make a lot of money but I've frankly never cared about "looking in fashion," so, personally, the whole thing is just another unwanted issue.

So long as high school girls are issued short skirts like in Japan, I'm all for them.

...Hell, I'd be for them if that wasn't the case anyway. I'm militant, though, and people with my psyche usually have their kids in ROTC anyway.

I think the whole "the poor kids won't have the newest clothes" thing is bullshit because most public schools have students from a particular neighborhood, which means that all the students would be in the same wealth category, thus meaning that they could buy the same clothes. Also, this excuse could lead into debates about poor kids not having all kinds of other things that would "hurt their feelings". My parents make a lot of money but I've frankly never cared about "looking in fashion," so, personally, the whole thing is just another unwanted issue.

Not quite true. In my school, nearly everyone's parents earn enough to get the latest this-or-that. I am not "nearly everyone". If there was no uniform policy, then I would most likely have more ridcule imposed upon me. As it is, no-one can tell their expensieve shirts from my Oxfam effort.

I relate sort of to your situation, Noble Men, though in a private school not public.

The first school I attended had a modest dress code which was not hard to follow. I found out there what it was like to be an outcast on the basis of dress. My parents could not afford the "in" clothes that everyone else was wearing, and I had to get by with less-than-cool. Thus rejection. If you didn't look cool, you weren't.
The next school I attended had uniforms. Sure, they were kinda annoying (plaid skirts and white blouses), but it gave me the opportunity to make some friends who didn't really care if my family had less money than theirs did. We all looked the same. And it sure was easier for the administration to keep track of how we were dressing. There was no "is that too tight, too short, too low, etc?" No question of styles that could or could not be worn. It was plain and simple--here is what is allowed, wear that or don't come. And believe me, it did help the attitude among the students. Take that from someone who hasn't been out of HS all that long (3 years). There were no t-shirts with questionable slogans, no seductive clothes on the girls, etc.

I'm not saying I would advocate uniforms for a public school. That's a tough issue to decide on. But at least in a private school setting, they can be a very good choice, sometimes the best.

"a bland stereotypical sense of identity" is absolutely no argument against it. Like baggy pants and stuff like rap-"inspired" "clothing" isn't completely stereotypical (and tasteless). Maybe it'll help getting some discipline in the kids. And if they're not forced to go with what the school thinks they should wear in school, then they're forced to follow "fashion" (no matter how tasteless it is and how shitty it looks, take all the fat kids with those revealing clothes... ugh...).

'Sides... it works in the UK and other countries (consider for example that in Japan school have issued requests of former students not selling their uniforms, they're quite popular there). I wish we'd have had uniforms back in my schooldays.
1. yes it is
2. ok.
3. so if i say that you should wear a uniform because it will help get some discipline in you regardless of how you behave, then you should have to wear a uniform?
4. no their not. ive never been "forced to follow 'fashion,'" nor do i know anyone who has. if you believe people will be "forced to follow 'fashion,'" then prove it.
5. observational studies do not prove causality.
6. so your personal views should be imposed on everyone else?

Man, I wish you went to my school, I'd show you what "rights" you think you have. I never told anyone to do anything, how is that making someone conform to my views?
you are advocating school uniforms are you not? and if your not then im sorry you should've stated that earlier.

Actually, most workplaces have some kind of uniform or dress code.

irrelevant, you are forced to go to school. if you dont want to wear a uniform then dont get that job.

I'm not saying I would advocate uniforms for a public school. That's a tough issue to decide on. But at least in a private school setting, they can be a very good choice, sometimes the best.

I think that the uniform is good in any school. Children can be little arseholes in any setting, so why add kerosene to the fire?

The idea that it limits expression is crap. Clothes are about the stupidest way to express yourself. A better way is too have opinions and express those.

irrelevant, you are forced to go to school. if you dont want to wear a uniform then dont get that job.

If you want a job that has no uniform or dresscode whatsoever, then your options are cut down significantly. The idea of "I'm not working there, it has a uniform", is immature at best, foolish at worst.

you are advocating school uniforms are you not? and if your not then im sorry you should've stated that earlier.

I didn't say they were good and I didnt say they were bad, I just said that they don't cause a lack of personal freedom and individuality. They gave a nice sense of discipline which is sorely lacking in our society.

All civilized nations except France and the US have uniforms in schools. Schools in sub-Saharan Africa, where people can barely afford food, have uniforms.

It teaches children that to truely not conform, one must be a nonconformist in their heart and mind, not just buy some studs at Hot Topic and call themselves a "nonconformist".

It is simply civilized.

The U.S. military wears uniforms. Are they fascist for wearing uniforms as well?
Read the rest of the thread. IRONY!

Because those other people are children in this case ?
Show me that wearing an uniform reduces creativity instead of enhancing it or that it offers any disadvantages other than "they look bad" and I'll be the first to fight them. Otherwise I'll consider the opinion of the school in question as the best researched and informed.
1. so what?
2. if you mean show you a scientific study, then i can't do that as i dont trust any study that attempts to measure creativity. a uniform reduces creativity because creativity is expressed through dress and a uniform denies that. dress can be an expression of how you feel, think, or believe politically. for example, i could wear a shirt with a specific message on it (as many kids do) and that message would say something that i believe is true. or, it could be a piece of art, something i made or admire by an artist. its not impossible. in fact it happens every day at ever school without uniforms. i dont know how else to explain this to you

Your point? The dress codes in most places is more strict than school uniforms. Might as well get used to it.
my point is that you cant impose your beliefs on others.
according to your logic of "might as well get used to it," so long as i tell the school that i am planning on taking a job that doesn't require a uniform then i shouldnt have to wear one.

You obviously have never worn a uniform. I've gone from elementary and middle school with uniforms to high school without. You have no idea how rediculous this paragraph sounds, our personalities were never harmed because we wore uniforms! They don't turn kids into clones no matter how much you want to believe that. In fact, if I had to choose I would say the teachers were much more personal when we had uniforms compared to when we did not. Nothing you stated in there is a practical statement, just more stereotyping.
The "no, you're wrong because I say so" defense really isn't getting you anywhere here. So uniforms make you feel good? Cool. If we're going with personal experience, people who go to schools with uniforms uniformly feel oppressed by their school and disconnected from their teachers. The closest student-teacher bonds are at non-uniform schools, because the teachers get to learn the students' personalities in a much more personal way.

Also, goddam it, it's annoying when other people think they know what's best for you just because they're older. In most cases, they don't.

Proofreading is always nice.

What about weekends? Summer? I never faced any trouble with that issue.
Not the same level of practice. Not the same environment.

People who don't look good get teased period. Teasing occurs in every school regardless of what they are wearing. Nope, none of our girls ever did drugs to balance out the fact that their skirt was too long for the rest of us.
ANNND...you missed the nuance of my argument. Conceed that a certain amount of teasing is inevitable. However, some people identify with and look better in the way they choose to dress to an extent that those individuals will not be teased. That means there's nnet less teasing in my world, which is probably the most important consequence to evaluate in this debate.

What?
Uniforms speak to a school's character: we decide what you wear, we know what's good for you, we know the way you should think. This bears out in every uniform school I've ever seen or visited. It stifles independent thinking and critical analysis. When students are allowed to do what they want, they feel more free to speak their minds. This, also, is extremely important.

In essence, you have no reasons why uniforms are good, only reasons why they might not be bad. All I have to win is that they may be a slight bit bad to win this argument.

If I may quote Bill Clinton on this one:

"School uniforms are the perfect example of a youth party being formed, it worked with Hitler in WWII."

Seriously people. That's why we have school uniforms, it's to get everyone to look EXACTLY the same, so you're essentially being stripped of your individuality. I'm not AGAINST school uniforms, unless they're those grey/pistacchio flannel looking ones that the Hitler youth wore. If you're going to incorporate a school uniform at least make it look cool. So all in all, school uniforms are a good idea ... as long as it follows loose guidelines - like say - a T-shirt and jeans or something. It would work and kids could still express themselves.
thats a dress code not a uniform. there is a big difference. making all kids where a t-hirt and jeans is just as bad.

As someone who would be forced to wear a uniform if it was implemented nationally, I think I can say that I wouldn't like it at all. As for the people complaining about being ridiculed for being uncool, why the hell are you listening? I've never kept up with fashion: My dressing each morning is "Oh, hey, that's on top of my drawer, so I'll wear that." I don't buy clothes that are in style, most of my stuff is old, I'm too lazy to shop...

And yet I'm a popular, well-liked kid.

If people focus on your clothes and that's how they judge you, then they aren't worth having as friends.

Not quite true. In my school, nearly everyone's parents earn enough to get the latest this-or-that. I am not "nearly everyone". If there was no uniform policy, then I would most likely have more ridcule imposed upon me. As it is, no-one can tell their expensieve shirts from my Oxfam effort.
if someone is ridiculing you, then you should tell an administrator.

All civilized nations except France and the US have uniforms in schools. Schools in sub-Saharan Africa, where people can barely afford food, have uniforms.

It teaches children that to truely not conform, one must be a nonconformist in their heart and mind, not just buy some studs at Hot Topic and call themselves a "nonconformist".

It is simply civilized.
Now we're going with the colonialist line of thinking - "we need to civilize those poor Africans (children), because they just don't know what's good for them."

That's also not true. It makes potential non-conformists think that their alternate viewpoints are simply going to be squashed under the bootheel of what they'd term "the Man." How can you think independent thought is possible if your means of expressing it are quashed?

a uniform reduces creativity because creativity is expressed through dress and a uniform denies that.

Not quite true. Creativity is expressed through the arts, and with clothes they are expressing the creativity of the desinger, not themselves. Unless they desined and made the clothes themselves, in which case they can wear them at home.
If people only adress their political views via dress, then they don't really belive in them. Otherwise they would engage in debate. And anyway, if they want to express views but have a uniform, then why not badges?

I think that the uniform is good in any school. Children can be little arseholes in any setting, so why add kerosene to the fire?

The idea that it limits expression is crap. Clothes are about the stupidest way to express yourself. A better way is too have opinions and express those.
1. your not
2. no its not.
3. actually its a very effective way
4. many times those opinions are expressed through clothes. also, artistic expression is often times present (every day on multiple people in my school) in clothing.

If you want a job that has no uniform or dresscode whatsoever, then your options are cut down significantly. The idea of "I'm not working there, it has a uniform", is immature at best, foolish at worst.
1. so what? this is America, i have the freedom to choose any job i want for whatever reason i want.
2. so your opinion of what is immature and foolish should be imposed on others?

I think highschool girls should be forced to wear uniforms. That uniform should be hiking boots, knee socks, denim short shorts, halter-top and pigtails.



not too sure about the hiking boots, but the rest i definately agree with.... :)

Now with the perverted male arguement for uniforms out of the way, i move on.

I never had to wear uniforms in school but i work at a school now that has them, and from what i have seen, i think they are a good thing. I've only been out of school for about 2 years, so its all still fresh. One of the easiest ways to tell ones social status was by the way they dressed. The more popular kids always had on the "In" clothes, and tended to be from the more wealthy families. The Lower class, and lower middle class families wore mostly wal-mart brand clothing, which was typically laughed at by the popular kids.


At the school I work at, we have a decent variety in our economic classes, however we do tend more towards the lower end of the spectrum. The uniform is Dark Blue Slacks/Shorts/Skirts/Skorts and a Maroon polo-style shirt, with the school name sewn in to the chest. They also have a reward system based around the uniform. Every Friday is free dress day. However, those students who recieved a detention, SAC(in- school suspension) or were suspended that week had to wear their uniform. I have seen most of these students in regular clothing, and can tell you that only the slutty girls show any signs of not knowing how to dress properly. The school runs from elementary thru middle school. Most of our graduating 8th graders wanted to attend the private High school that required uniforms, as opposed to the public high school that did not. So obviously they were more concerned about the environment and education of a school than the dress code. These students are by no means conformists, and all have unique personalities. Im sure they would rather NOT be wearing a uniform, though not enough to behave in some cases.


As far as students rights go, all i have to say is HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..... who lied to you buddy. Minors rights suck. You do have the basic rights, but you lack most of the protections that Adults have.

As for it being Public school. So what. Home schooling is always an option. Or private schools, or charter schools. All that is required by law is that you attend school, it doesnt say where or how, just how long. The fact that its a Public school simply means that it cant be picky about who attends. Tax-payers pay for this so that they DONT have to send their kids to private school, or teach them themselves. The students wishes truely dont matter. The school board is voted for by TAX-Payers( not including working minors, who typically can if they know about it make it to where taxes arent withheld from their checks). The Tax-payers are the ones who should decide. Until you are 18, it is your parents responsibilty to care for you. If they choose to do that by placing you in public school fine. If that school chooses to have uniforms, your parents CAN choose to move you if they so wish, or home school you, or leave you there, its their decision entirely.


And now im rambling, so im gonna stop talking and get yelled at by the teenagers whom i just made face the truth

my point is that you cant impose your beliefs on others.
according to your logic of "might as well get used to it," so long as i tell the school that i am planning on taking a job that doesn't require a uniform then i shouldnt have to wear one.

Well, I'm sorry, then, it looks as though you won't be getting a job. I know of absolutely no workplace that, in the very least, has a certain dress code. It's not imposing beliefs on someone, it's more a common courtesy thing. You go to school to learn, not to make a god damn fashion statement.

And by the way, I'm not for or against school uniforms. They serve their purpose where needed, although.

it was muffty today at school, and i missed it because i'm ill. PITY ME. lol, just a 'get well soon' i'd love. :fluffle:

If people focus on your clothes and that's how they judge you, then they aren't worth having as friends.

I don't know about other people, but I'm not after friends, just a quiet life. I don't think I'm alone.

if someone is ridiculing you, then you should tell an administrator.

Somehow, I don't think I could bear to live with the shockwaves of that. My life may improve in one sense, but would defianetly worsen in another. Besides, I have my own method of dealing with it; laughing. Not only do I feel a bit better, it scares the shit out of them. Their entire 2 insult repetoir, laughed at.

All civilized nations except France and the US have uniforms in schools. Schools in sub-Saharan Africa, where people can barely afford food, have uniforms.

It teaches children that to truely not conform, one must be a nonconformist in their heart and mind, not just buy some studs at Hot Topic and call themselves a "nonconformist".

It is simply civilized.
1. so what.
2. thats probably one of the most horrible things ive ever heard. how could that possibly be used in favor of your argument?
3. you dont have to buy clothes at a particular store to display creativity through dress. refering to stereotypes does not help your argument
4. like colonialism? (irony, get it?) your opinion of what is civilized should not be imposed on others.

The "no, you're wrong because I say so" defense really isn't getting you anywhere here. So uniforms make you feel good? Cool. If we're going with personal experience, people who go to schools with uniforms uniformly feel oppressed by their school and disconnected from their teachers. The closest student-teacher bonds are at non-uniform schools, because the teachers get to learn the students' personalities in a much more personal way.

Also, goddam it, it's annoying when other people think they know what's best for you just because they're older. In most cases, they don't.

Proofreading is always nice.


Not the same level of practice. Not the same environment.


ANNND...you missed the nuance of my argument. Conceed that a certain amount of teasing is inevitable. However, some people identify with and look better in the way they choose to dress to an extent that those individuals will not be teased. That means there's nnet less teasing in my world, which is probably the most important consequence to evaluate in this debate.


Uniforms speak to a school's character: we decide what you wear, we know what's good for you, we know the way you should think. This bears out in every uniform school I've ever seen or visited. It stifles independent thinking and critical analysis. When students are allowed to do what they want, they feel more free to speak their minds. This, also, is extremely important.

In essence, you have no reasons why uniforms are good, only reasons why they might not be bad. All I have to win is that they may be a slight bit bad to win this argument.



And yet you have no proof, just a preconceived notion.


The real world uses evidence. There is no proof that uniforms decrease creativity, however there are studies that show it increases learning.

it was muffty today at school, and i missed it because i'm ill. PITY ME. lol, just a 'get well soon' i'd love. :fluffle:

Get well soon!

I don't know about other people, but I'm not after friends, just a quiet life. I don't think I'm alone.



Somehow, I don't think I could bear to live with the shockwaves of that. My life may improve in one sense, but would defianetly worsen in another. Besides, I have my own method of dealing with it; laughing. Not only do I feel a bit better, it scares the shit out of them. Their entire 2 insult repetoir, laughed at.


Kid with no friends that laughs when you make fun of him? I think I've made fun of you before..

I hate the concept of uniforms at an institution that one is required by law to participate in. This is why I am completely against any measure to introduce uniforms to public schools. How a person covers their body should be their choice, not their school's. It's different for institutions that one voluntarily joins, such as boy scouts/girl scouts, etc.

I've never dressed in clothes that were fashionable, and I was teased, but it was more for my personality and tastes than for my clothes. I would have been just as harshly teased if everyone had been wearing the same clothes, and perhaps those doing the teasing would have dug deeper to find something to make fun of me for, since they couldn't just make fun of my clothes.

My friends are somewhat like me in that they are, for lack of a better word, weird. All of them who went to schools with uniforms, whenever they talked of their school, had more than a tinge of resentment in their voices when discussing the place.

Perhaps uniforms are good for some people, but I'm very glad I never went to a school with them. The concept of being forced to wear something I would never wear of my own free will, of being forced to be exactly like everyone else when I don't want to, disgusts me.

Kid with no friends that laughs when you make fun of him? I think I've made fun of you before..

Probably. Where are you from, I'll tell you if you have.

By the way, I do have some friends. 3.5, to be exact.

Not quite true. Creativity is expressed through the arts, and with clothes they are expressing the creativity of the desinger, not themselves. Unless they desined and made the clothes themselves, in which case they can wear them at home.
If people only adress their political views via dress, then they don't really belive in them. Otherwise they would engage in debate. And anyway, if they want to express views but have a uniform, then why not badges?
1. incorrect
2. like you said they can be the designer
3. so you dont think that saying you can only express your opinions and creativity at home will stifle creativity at all?
4. who said thats what people did?
5. psst. often times the do.
6. because allowing kids to only express themselves with badges would stifle their creativity.

Does anyone here actually go to a school with a uniform? If so what does it look like? just curious...
Mines navy straight skirt, navy jumper with maroon trim, white shirt, navy, maroon and white tie, Navy blazer with school badge on it, navy tights and shoes.

My friends one is navy straight skirt, green shirt, purple jumper with navy and green trim, purple, navy, green and white tie, green tights and black shoes...oh and purple blazer with school badge...

Its like a competition to see who can get the oddest uniform :D

not too sure about the hiking boots, but the rest i definately agree with.... :)

Now with the perverted male arguement for uniforms out of the way, i move on.

I never had to wear uniforms in school but i work at a school now that has them, and from what i have seen, i think they are a good thing. I've only been out of school for about 2 years, so its all still fresh. One of the easiest ways to tell ones social status was by the way they dressed. The more popular kids always had on the "In" clothes, and tended to be from the more wealthy families. The Lower class, and lower middle class families wore mostly wal-mart brand clothing, which was typically laughed at by the popular kids.


At the school I work at, we have a decent variety in our economic classes, however we do tend more towards the lower end of the spectrum. The uniform is Dark Blue Slacks/Shorts/Skirts/Skorts and a Maroon polo-style shirt, with the school name sewn in to the chest. They also have a reward system based around the uniform. Every Friday is free dress day. However, those students who recieved a detention, SAC(in- school suspension) or were suspended that week had to wear their uniform. I have seen most of these students in regular clothing, and can tell you that only the slutty girls show any signs of not knowing how to dress properly. The school runs from elementary thru middle school. Most of our graduating 8th graders wanted to attend the private High school that required uniforms, as opposed to the public high school that did not. So obviously they were more concerned about the environment and education of a school than the dress code. These students are by no means conformists, and all have unique personalities. Im sure they would rather NOT be wearing a uniform, though not enough to behave in some cases.


As far as students rights go, all i have to say is HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..... who lied to you buddy. Minors rights suck. You do have the basic rights, but you lack most of the protections that Adults have.

As for it being Public school. So what. Home schooling is always an option. Or private schools, or charter schools. All that is required by law is that you attend school, it doesnt say where or how, just how long. The fact that its a Public school simply means that it cant be picky about who attends. Tax-payers pay for this so that they DONT have to send their kids to private school, or teach them themselves. The students wishes truely dont matter. The school board is voted for by TAX-Payers( not including working minors, who typically can if they know about it make it to where taxes arent withheld from their checks). The Tax-payers are the ones who should decide. Until you are 18, it is your parents responsibilty to care for you. If they choose to do that by placing you in public school fine. If that school chooses to have uniforms, your parents CAN choose to move you if they so wish, or home school you, or leave you there, its their decision entirely.


And now im rambling, so im gonna stop talking and get yelled at by the teenagers whom i just made face the truth
1. i advocate stronger rights for minors. just because they dont have rights doesnt mean they dont deserve them
2. unfortunately for your whole tax payers voters argument to work, it would mean that their are no restrictions on the power of the legislature in this country. their are. try reading the Constitution.

I hate the concept of uniforms at an institution that one is required by law to participate in. This is why I am completely against any measure to introduce uniforms to public schools. How a person covers their body should be their choice, not their school's. It's different for institutions that one voluntarily joins, such as boy scouts/girl scouts, etc.




The problem in that statement is that you ARE NOT required by law to attend public school. You are required to attend school and show certain achievment before advanceing. The school can come from parents, churches, private institutions, or tax-funded public institutions.

School uniforms? A terrible idea if you ask me. I wouldn't call Japan a paradise (no offense to the Japanese).

1. incorrect
2. like you said they can be the designer
3. so you dont think that saying you can only express your opinions and creativity at home will stifle creativity at all?
4. who said thats what people did?
5. psst. often times the do.
6. because allowing kids to only express themselves with badges would stifle their creativity.

First off, I never said that creativity can only be expressed at home. Only creativity via clothes. In fact, I don't know about you, but here in our English classes we have "creative writing". Who said that's what people did? You:

4. many times those opinions are expressed through clothes.

Also, I'm not saying that creativity can only expressed via the badge, only viewpoints. In fact, when people take time to look at your badge, that's a good time to engage in debate if they disagree.

Well, I'm sorry, then, it looks as though you won't be getting a job. I know of absolutely no workplace that, in the very least, has a certain dress code. It's not imposing beliefs on someone, it's more a common courtesy thing. You go to school to learn, not to make a god damn fashion statement.

And by the way, I'm not for or against school uniforms. They serve their purpose where needed, although.
1. i never said whether id be willing to wear a uniform or follow a dress code for a certain job. i said that its not my place or anyone elses place to say where someone can or can't work or can or can't wear. if i CHOOSE to get a job somewhere with a dress code then i'll follow the dress code. do you know why? because i chose to work their.
2. i never said dress code, i said uniform
3. how is it "common courtesy." im not teasing anyone or coming up to someone saying "your clothes are shitty, wear these clothes." its common courtesy, in my opinion, not to impose your beliefs on others.
4. and no one is stopping anyone from learning.

I don't know about other people, but I'm not after friends, just a quiet life. I don't think I'm alone.



Somehow, I don't think I could bear to live with the shockwaves of that. My life may improve in one sense, but would defianetly worsen in another. Besides, I have my own method of dealing with it; laughing. Not only do I feel a bit better, it scares the shit out of them. Their entire 2 insult repetoir, laughed at.
1. no one is stopping you from having a quiet life
2. wouldnt that make your original argument invalid?

And yet you have no proof, just a preconceived notion.


The real world uses evidence. There is no proof that uniforms decrease creativity, however there are studies that show it increases learning.
there are also studies that show it decreases learning.
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/UniformRay.html theres one mention in this article which i found with a .08 :eek: second search on google.
and anyway, its impossible for a study to accurately measure creativity. creativity is a far to abstract and SUBJECTIVE thing.

Does anyone here actually go to a school with a uniform? If so what does it look like? just curious...
Mines navy straight skirt, navy jumper with maroon trim, white shirt, navy, maroon and white tie, Navy blazer with school badge on it, navy tights and shoes.

My friends one is navy straight skirt, green shirt, purple jumper with navy and green trim, purple, navy, green and white tie, green tights and black shoes...oh and purple blazer with school badge...

Its like a competition to see who can get the oddest uniform :D

My school uniform:
Any footgear within reason.
Blue or black trousers/skirt. No length restrictions on the skirt. :D
A white shirt/blouse.
A blue tie with yellow and white stripes.
The option of a black or grey jumper, although roundnecks must be removed in class.

It's a simple uniform that actually looks relativley suave (compared to many), and is like the dress code in most offices. Sorry it's too boring for your contest.

1. i advocate stronger rights for minors. just because they dont have rights doesnt mean they dont deserve them
2. unfortunately for your whole tax payers voters argument to work, it would mean that their are no restrictions on the power of the legislature in this country. their are. try reading the Constitution.


I know the Constitution Club House. However, i was talking on a local, school board level. And yes, i know that the School Board is also limited in what it can do, but when a member is elected, it means those voting for that member have faith that they will be the best person for that posistion and make the best decsisions allowed by their limited power.


The same applies for State and National level politics, though money has more say in those levels.


I also think that minors should be afforded the same rights as adults, in most cases. However i also understand and agree with the reasoning behind why minors rights are so limited. It is the Parents responsibility to watch after, take care of, and in some ways teach the minor. If the minor had the same rights as an adult, they would not feel the need to listen to their parents. On the flip side of that, the Parents can be held responsible for the wrong doings of the minor in most cases, so their is a downside for the adults as well. If a minor breaks a law that requires a fine, it is thge parents responsibilty to make sure the fine is payed.

Increased minor rights would have to mean decreased parental responsibilty, which would be VERY bad.



edit: yes i know i just made an arguement for and against minor rights.... I do think that a minors life should not be jerked around by every adult, unless their parents have a say in how it is happening... i agree public schools make a habit out of supressing Constitutional rights, and that should be stopped.

1. no one is stopping you from having a quiet life

Really? Spend a day in my life, see how noisy it can be.

The problem in that statement is that you ARE NOT required by law to attend public school. You are required to attend school and show certain achievment before advanceing. The school can come from parents, churches, private institutions, or tax-funded public institutions.
thus proving his point. the government is required by law to offer an education to the public. parents have to work. theres not enough money for a private school and thus the only option is public schools.

thus proving his point. the government is required by law to offer an education to the public. parents have to work. theres not enough money for a private school and thus the only option is public schools.


But you dont HAVE to attend a public school, therefor it is NOT goverment mandated, and can be governed in whatever way the local governing body sees fit, unless restrictions are placed(such as capital punishment, or the whole seperation of church and state crap) by the federal government.

I should have added etc. to the end of that list.

just pointing something out...translation

British American
Public school = private school
private school = private school
state school = public school

First off, I never said that creativity can only be expressed at home. Only creativity via clothes. In fact, I don't know about you, but here in our English classes we have "creative writing". Who said that's what people did? You:



Also, I'm not saying that creativity can only expressed via the badge, only viewpoints. In fact, when people take time to look at your badge, that's a good time to engage in debate if they disagree.
1. i was attempting to relate a more extreme example to the original situation. obviously you would reject the more extreme situation thats why i was trying to relate it.
2. never the less it stifles creativity and individual expression
3. i was responding to the specific statement "If people only adress their political views via dress, then they don't really belive in them" in case you havent noticed by now im responding sentence by sentence or paragraph by paragraph via numbers to make it easier
4. you said you can only express creativity through dress within the badge.
5. so what?

Personally, I find uniforms degrading and uncomfortable. I can't learn in a uniform, and the whole point of school is to learn. Coming from a school with a uniform policy, I hate them with a passion. It really pisses my parents off having to buy the things because they are so damn expensive.


This is what I want to do with my uniform:
:sniper:

you said you can only express creativity through dress within the badge.

Did I? Whoops. I meant to say that "within a school uniform situation, if you really need to express your viewpoints via dress, then the badge is the best route to take.". Sorry if I caused confusion, I hope that settles that point.

I know the Constitution Club House. However, i was talking on a local, school board level. And yes, i know that the School Board is also limited in what it can do, but when a member is elected, it means those voting for that member have faith that they will be the best person for that posistion and make the best decsisions allowed by their limited power.


The same applies for State and National level politics, though money has more say in those levels.


I also think that minors should be afforded the same rights as adults, in most cases. However i also understand and agree with the reasoning behind why minors rights are so limited. It is the Parents responsibility to watch after, take care of, and in some ways teach the minor. If the minor had the same rights as an adult, they would not feel the need to listen to their parents. On the flip side of that, the Parents can be held responsible for the wrong doings of the minor in most cases, so their is a downside for the adults as well. If a minor breaks a law that requires a fine, it is thge parents responsibilty to make sure the fine is payed.

Increased minor rights would have to mean decreased parental responsibilty, which would be VERY bad.



edit: yes i know i just made an arguement for and against minor rights.... I do think that a minors life should not be jerked around by every adult, unless their parents have a say in how it is happening... i agree public schools make a habit out of supressing Constitutional rights, and that should be stopped.
know the Constitution eh? heres a test, but dont cheat. which is held with higher authority the Constitution or international treaties? (i know it has no bearing on the conversation but lets see)
back to the conversation. your advocation of minor rights being suppressed and promoted in specific circumstances would seem to support not having school uniforms in public schools. the reason that the school board should not be allowed to require school uniforms is that it stomps on peoples individual liberties. Congress can't even do that.

Did I? Whoops. I meant to say that "within a school uniform situation, if you really need to express your viewpoints via dress, then the badge is the best route to take.". Sorry if I caused confusion, I hope that settles that point.

the badge on my uniform was a sword and a deer.it had nothing of me about it, i dont eat venicen.

Really? Spend a day in my life, see how noisy it can be.
if its "noisy" then its because you allow it to be noisy or you dont call the police when someone is harrassing you. that is, if were going by the same definition of "noisy"

But you dont HAVE to attend a public school, therefor it is NOT goverment mandated, and can be governed in whatever way the local governing body sees fit, unless restrictions are placed(such as capital punishment, or the whole seperation of church and state crap) by the federal government.

I should have added etc. to the end of that list.
but it IS. that is why public schools exist in the first place, because that is the only option for many people for a myriad of reasons.

And yet you have no proof, just a preconceived notion.


The real world uses evidence. There is no proof that uniforms decrease creativity, however there are studies that show it increases learning.
Ooh, ooh, I got it!

Let's play the assertions game!

I write a page of reasoned argument; you refute none of it, and refer to vague "experts" without citing them.

I'll go ahead and say you functionally conceeded everything I have to say.

Btw, my sources:
http://www.schooluniforms-not.org/debates.html
http://www.geocities.com/school_uniforms/abstract98.html
http://www.swaraj.org/shikshantar/vimukt_06.html
http://www.bctf.ca/info/research/SchoolUniforms.html

if its "noisy" then its because you allow it to be noisy or you dont call the police when someone is harrassing you. that is, if were going by the same definition of "noisy"

In your second point (call the police when harrased), I think we are talking about different noisys. Mine was a pun on "quiet life". Also, I wouldn't say I "allow" it to be noisy, please, expand on what you meant by that.

know the Constitution eh? heres a test, but dont cheat. which is held with higher authority the Constitution or international treaties? (i know it has no bearing on the conversation but lets see)
back to the conversation. your advocation of minor rights being suppressed and promoted in specific circumstances would seem to support not having school uniforms in public schools. the reason that the school board should not be allowed to require school uniforms is that it stomps on peoples individual liberties. Congress can't even do that.


The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, held above all others.

duh, thats the supremecy clause... article... well, 7 i think but i dont have it memorized......


true, i have pointed and counter pointed my arguement. However, as it stands now, i believe that Uniforms in any school (excepting home of course) are a good thing and should be required, however it should be left up to the local school boards, and their constituents. If minors ever recieve the rights that they should have, then well Uniforms should still be an option, and the local school board and its constituents should still have the final decision. In this scenario however, the constituency would have increased.


Congress can do many things that i dont personally agree with, that doesnt mean i dont have to obey them. It just means i have the ability to vote for someone ese next time around.


edit: spelling mistakes

The meeting of my local school board for uniforms is about to come in a couple of weeks, so I need some good sites or facts against school uniforms. This is not a debate.
Look,dumbass,as soon as you put this thread up,you asked for a debate. pick your topics a lot better. :mp5:

but it IS. that is why public schools exist in the first place, because that is the only option for many people for a myriad of reasons.


Still my arguement holds that the government has never once said, " You HAVE to send you child to PUBLIC school."

the fact that it is the easiest option, and in some cases the only option, does not change this fact.



edit: might be away for about 20 minutes

Still my arguement holds that the government has never once said, " You HAVE to send you child to PUBLIC school."

the fact that it is the easiest option, and in some cases the only option, does not change this fact.

But he/she did say that it was the only option. You are arguing over something you agree with! :confused:

School Unforms are good!

But he/she did say that it was the only option. You are arguing over something you agree with! :confused:


No im not. Im saying the government doesnt say that you have to attend public schools, therefore the arguement against uniforms in public schools because " the government says we have to be here" is not a valid arguement.

No im not. Im saying the government doesnt say that you have to attend public schools, therefore the arguement against uniforms in public schools because " the government says we have to be here" is not a valid arguement.

Then I have misinterpreted the situation, for which I'm sorry.

the other day,the day before i was off, I had to wear a long skirt and an awful jumper above it, because my usual black trousers- school logo jumper look had not washed properly. people were eying me and talking about me and i felt AWFUL. some boys pointed and laughed at me, and in particular two mega bitches who i hate starting asking me " Why do you have a skirt?" in the most sly way, staring at me. The same girl starting teasing me. She ran past me and called me a 'fat skirtee' the whole day was horrible. People bullied me just because i was wearing a skirt. My friends told me to ignore them and told off the girl who called me names, and said i looked fine and they said i looked better! and when i used to wear a skirt, someone called me a tart. eughh.

Poor you!
You have my sympathy.

stupid people suck huh...


sorry they ruined your day...

Ok. Did anyone actually read my post?

Huh. Perfect timing, one of those "Uniform or No Uniform" issues came up.

I decided to say no to uniforms.

I think anyone who relies on clothes as their primary means to express themselves is hopelessly mundane anyway, so there's not much cause to worry about it.

5. you are attempting to force people to conform to your views, do you see the crap?


School is for learning. Children will wear that which is required by the school system, including conformity to uniform policy.

As for your idea of "school", it's been tried for decades, and it's a load of useless festering crap, that seems unable to instruct but a few students.

It's time for uniforms, and it's time to start making kids realize SCHOOL is their fucking job.... And to take it seriously.... If it takes removing all scraps of that putrid mess of pop-culture and hedonistic bullshit they spend their entire school-careers investing in... So fucking be-it.... Your idea of "individuality" produces nothing but useless sluts, and dumb jocks... Sorry, bub, you lost decades ago....

The problem in that statement is that you ARE NOT required by law to attend public school. You are required to attend school and show certain achievment before advanceing. The school can come from parents, churches, private institutions, or tax-funded public institutions.

We didn't have the money to send me to a private school (if we had actually wanted to, which my parents didn't). Also, the private schools near me all have uniforms. If my school district had adopted uniforms, there would have been no choice for me. Luckily, they never did. I personally could not stand being forced to adhere to someone else's idea of taste. I'm not arguing that they stifle creativity, because I don't know if they do, but I am arguing that I would hate wearing one. For one, because they are the type of thing I woulod never wear, and also because I'd resent the fact of being forced to be identical to everyone in even that small way.

There's a lot of great, unbiased facts in this book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/006074586X/qid=1117245714/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-6945287-6042330?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) on this issue.

Best source you'll find.

I can honestly say that, if my school district were to decide to implement uniforms, that I simply would not wear it. What would they do? Suspend me? Kick me out? Wouldn't that just destroy the entire purpose of school?

Last I checked, the priority in school was to teach, not tell you what you can and cannot wear.

School uniforms are bad. The "fascistic" charge is excessive, certainly, but they do promote a dangerous sort of groupthink mentality. Dressing uniform-style homongenizes the students, destroying their individual identity - it's essentially away of making them faceless to the teachers, someTHING to impart knowledge to but not to know and understand as individuals.

That's complete nonsense.

UK schools pretty much universally have uniforms, and I don't recall experiencing the effects you describe, nor do I know anyone who does either. Nobody liked wearing school uniforms, but its not as if any kids like going to school anyway.

It's not as if students are unable to wear what they want outside of school. Very few people get to dress exactly according to their tastes in fashion and personal expression when they are at work, so I don't see why school should be any different.

I think it's generally a good lesson for life that work and play should be kept separate, and uniforms seem to be a good way of further enforcing the idea that school is for work, not play, and you can have fun and wear what you like when you go home.

Probably. Where are you from, I'll tell you if you have.

By the way, I do have some friends. 3.5, to be exact.

You eat half of the fourth one?

School uniforms? A terrible idea if you ask me. I wouldn't call Japan a paradise (no offense to the Japanese).

Lolicon paradise.