NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm just wondering why there is such an appeal amongst certain circles for homeschooling. I understand some of the reasons given - better to not have the children indoctrinated by an appendage of the state, and so on. Very legitimate claim, I suppose.

At the same time, I'm trying to figure out what would make a parent academically qualified to teach the children. What percentage of the population in the U.S. has a masters degree - and how many of those hold degrees in maths and science? I'm assuming it's not a very high number. I mean, given that there is no lack of bad parenting in this country, how can we expect a homeschool based society to be any better off?

Anyway, try to convert this sceptic to the pro-homeschooling club.

Homeschooling is usually undertaken by moralistic families that do not want their children exposed to evils such as homosexuality, sex-ed, and teachers who might give their students less than a B-minus for bad work. [/sarcasm]

It's also used by parents in poor rural areas where the schools are bad/underfunded, the teachers (or students) have a reputation for cruelty, or where schools tend to be violent with bullies, Columbine-style unhappiness & shootings, gangs, drugs, and so on and so forth.

Consider it.

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

Possibly, the only appeal is that the child gets bullied at all the mainstream schools, or has been expelled from all of them. These scenarios are more common than they sound. I am against it. Only at a school can social skills be taught. I am also against it for the reasons you stated.

If I were going to do it, it would be in response to the utter didiculousness of the American public education system. Having been a 12 year veteran of it myself, I distinctly remember being taught the same thing more than once, having read the same book for class more than once, wasting lots of time, etc etc.

If I were going to home-school my kid, you bet your ass he's have ten times the raw knowledge of any publically schooled child by age 12. American schools are glorified babysitting halls.

If I were going to do it, it would be in response to the utter didiculousness of the American public education system. Having been a 12 year veteran of it myself, I distinctly remember being taught the same thing more than once, having read the same book for class more than once, wasting lots of time, etc etc.

If I were going to home-school my kid, you bet your ass he's have ten times the raw knowledge of any publically schooled child by age 12. American schools are glorified babysitting halls.

As are the British.

Well, most badly funded school systems are just glorified babysitting halls. And if the Galactic Council allowed me to raise taxes, I'd increase the education funding. But I can't. Damned checks and balances! :mad:

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

Well, most badly funded school systems are just glorified babysitting halls.

And a lot of the rich ones, too.

For one thing, the current public school system was originally designed over a century ago, not to educate people, but to be a factory for producing loyal little industrial workers. We now live in a post industrial society; it no longer applies until serious changes are taken. Besides, how is being raised in an authoritarian environment supposed to educate one about living in a democratic one?

Further, speaking as a person who was homeschooled, I have if anything been less sheltered from the aforementioned 'evils', being free to look up and learn on my own as I see fit, on whatever subject I happen to find interesting. You find that you're much likely to remember something if you actually give a damn about, thusly I've actually accumulated knowledge instead of memorizing boring shit for pointless tests and then forgetting it all immediately afterwards.

In response the Noble Men... how the hell did people learn to socialize before the invention of public schooling? Where humans a completely asocial species beforehand? No, we are quite capable of learning to socialize in any public setting; being freed up from school actually gives plenty of time for more realistic socialization settings, such as visiting a workplace, hanging out with random peers at the mall, etc.

Another thing... when last I checked, at least in elementary school, many hours of the day were actually spent just moving the children around, shuffling them about in lines to and from class, etc. Sitting in a single room in your own house, an average student can get the same amount of learning out of the way in approximately 3.5 hours per day.

And, as many colleges are noting, Homeschooled students who go to attend college tend to get on average much higher grades than their publicly schooled peers. Such grades has led many colleges to be very accepting of homeschool students, and such grades in a college are of course not a bad when one wishes to get a job after graduation.

And a lot of the rich ones, too.And not always glorified.

And not always babysitting.

And not always halls.

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

Home-schoolers often do much better than those who attend public schoolers. When I was home-schooled (grades 10-12), I taught myself. In 12th grade, I finished a year's worth of school work in just one month.

I'm surprised to see the argument of socialization still mentioned in a discussion on home-schooling. One who uses this argument does not have a clue as to the largeness and organizational level of homeschooling in the United States today. Homeschoolers are just as much social, have their own groups in the community, have sports teams, etc. It's funny to me how most of those who talk about socialization arguments fail to see the detriment of the socialization in the public schools.

Also, the socialization in public schools is not real world. They only learn to socialize with people their exact same age. If you're an adult and see an average public school children in the store or the mall, try having a conversation with them. They'll never look you in the eyes and are very uncomfortable with any conversations (strangers or not) with anyone not their age. Home school students learn to socialize in the real world with people of all ages.

My best friend in college was home schooled. We were both 20 years old. I was working on completing my undergraduate and he was working on his Ph.D. in mathematics. My wife taught in the public schools and now we home school. She has thrown away most of what she used in public school and said that most of her days, conferences, and education was on how to deal with behavioral problems and social issues.

If one is homeschooled they are skilled in independent research to study whatever field they want to enter. Public schools cannot offer such a wide array of classes because the structure of the system would require a specialist teacher to be hired for a class that not everyone would be interested in.

It's no question that homeschooled children out perform public school children in national testing. Colleges and Buisnesses now look very favorably on home schooled children. Why would anyone feel a system that puts 30 or more kids in a classroom and expect everyone to learn on the same level is superior to a one on one classroom exerience?

In response the Noble Men... how the hell did people learn to socialize before the invention of public schooling? Where humans a completely asocial species beforehand? No, we are quite capable of learning to socialize in any public setting; being freed up from school actually gives plenty of time for more realistic socialization settings, such as visiting a workplace, hanging out with random peers at the mall, etc.

Consider this: are you more likely to be lifelong friends with someone you've known and worked with for much of your life, or a random peer at the mall? Whilst school is not the only social situation, it is one of the best, especially for younger children who are otherwise restricted by age to go many places.

I'm surprised to see the argument of socialization still mentioned in a discussion on home-schooling. One who uses this argument does not have a clue as to the largeness and organizational level of homeschooling in the United States today. Homeschoolers are just as much social, have their own groups in the community, have sports teams, etc. It's funny to me how most of those who talk about socialization arguments fail to see the detriment of the socialization in the public schools.

You're right, I don't have that much of a clue about home-schooling in the U.S. This is because I live in Britain, where you don't hear so much about it.

This is funny.

I am 36 years old. I have asked this question to all of my adult friends and only one of them still maintains any degree of close friendship relations with anyone they went to High School with. There are a couple friends that I'm on Christmas Card mailing lists and we may talk every 2 or 3 years on the phone. Is that close?

Home schooling? I've heard of that stuff. From what i have heard mostly Christian fundies want this because they don't want their children to be taught about sex and evolution...

If I were going to do it, it would be in response to the utter didiculousness of the American public education system. Having been a 12 year veteran of it myself, I distinctly remember being taught the same thing more than once, having read the same book for class more than once, wasting lots of time, etc etc.

If I were going to home-school my kid, you bet your ass he's have ten times the raw knowledge of any publically schooled child by age 12. American schools are glorified babysitting halls.

Not necessarily. It depends on what school you're going to or what town you're living in. I've learned a lot in the public schools I've been to, I don't know where you went to school, but don't say that about ALL public schools.

Home schooling? I've heard of that stuff. From what i have heard mostly Christian fundies want this because they don't want their children to be taught about sex and evolution...

"Homeschooling: It's not just for freaky religious people anymore."

"Homeschooling: It's not just for freaky religious people anymore."

Who said that? And even if somebody said it, i still think homeschooling is wrong...

Home schooling? I've heard of that stuff. From what i have heard mostly Christian fundies want this because they don't want their children to be taught about sex and evolution...

That, and the fact that public education utterly reeks.

Also, the socialization in public schools is not real world. They only learn to socialize with people their exact same age. If you're an adult and see an average public school children in the store or the mall, try having a conversation with them. They'll never look you in the eyes and are very uncomfortable with any conversations (strangers or not) with anyone not their age. Home school students learn to socialize in the real world with people of all ages.

You complain about people stereotyping and exaggerating problems with homeschooling and then this is what you produce? Nothing like the pot calling the kettle black. There is absolutely no way you could possibly support your statement that children in public schools only learn to socialize with those their same age. They don't live in bubbles, you know - nor are all classes completely age-specific.

If one is homeschooled properly and are inclined towards independent learning they are skilled in independent research to study whatever field they want to enter. Public schools cannot offer such a wide array of classes because the structure of the system would require a specialist teacher to be hired for a class that not everyone would be interested in. However, a motivated student can always do independent research on their own.
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It's no question that properly homeschooled children often out perform public school children in national testing. Colleges and Buisnesses now look very favorably on home schooled children. Why would anyone feel a system that puts 30 or more kids in a classroom and expect everyone to learn on the same level is superior to a one on one classroom exerience?

Corrections in bold

I thought the school is shit was just an excuse for when you failed?

I'm just wondering why there is such an appeal amongst certain circles for homeschooling. I understand some of the reasons given - better to not have the children indoctrinated by an appendage of the state, and so on. Very legitimate claim, I suppose.

At the same time, I'm trying to figure out what would make a parent academically qualified to teach the children. What percentage of the population in the U.S. has a masters degree - and how many of those hold degrees in maths and science? I'm assuming it's not a very high number. I mean, given that there is no lack of bad parenting in this country, how can we expect a homeschool based society to be any better off?

Anyway, try to convert this sceptic to the pro-homeschooling club.
I am homeschooled. Why? Because

(A) Public school adds a lot of unnessecary stress and chaos to our lives.
(B) Public school never really taught me anything.
(C) When it did, they just drilled it into my brain over and over again and I'd forget it almost instantly anyway.
(D) The public school taught my brother he was stupid because he was male-we are still trying to reverse this process.
(E) Public school simply could not provide the individual attention my brother and I needed to get the most of our education.
(F) Homeschoolers statistically do much better in standardized testing.
(G) Homeschooling has allowed us to teach ourselves in the way that best suits us.
(H) I was clinically depressed before I started homeschooling. As soon as I started homeschooling, my psychologist saw a very noticeable difference and soon after, I stopped seeing her.
(I) It has helped our family get along much better.
(J) I have learned more about subjects I like to learn about.
(K) I have started to enjoy reading for fun again.
(L) I don't dread going to school every day.

Need I go on?

I thought the school is shit was just an excuse for when you failed?
No, actually, I excelled in academics in the public system.

Home schooling? I've heard of that stuff. From what i have heard mostly Christian fundies want this because they don't want their children to be taught about sex and evolution...
Actually, it was the exact opposite for our family. One of the reasons we didn't like the public system was because it was too religious and intolerant.

I am homeschooled. Why? Because

(A) Public school adds a lot of unnessecary stress and chaos to our lives.
(B) Public school never really taught me anything.
(C) When it did, they just drilled it into my brain over and over again and I'd forget it almost instantly anyway.
(D) The public school taught my brother he was stupid because he was male-we are still trying to reverse this process.
(E) Public school simply could not provide the individual attention my brother and I needed to get the most of our education.
(F) Homeschoolers statistically do much better in standardized testing.
(G) Homeschooling has allowed us to teach ourselves in the way that best suits us.
(H) I was clinically depressed before I started homeschooling. As soon as I started homeschooling, my psychologist saw a very noticeable difference and soon after, I stopped seeing her.
(I) It has helped our family get along much better.
(J) I have learned more about subjects I like to learn about.
(K) I have started to enjoy reading for fun again.
(L) I don't dread going to school every day.

Need I go on?

(A) That's life, you're going to be stressed out at some point in time no matter what.
Skip to (D) Really? I've never heard of males being singled out as being stupid before.
(E) That is a good point. Sometimes students that need individual attention don't get it because of large class sizes, but at least in my school district their trying to change that a little.
(F) True in a lot of cases, but definitely not always. I know a lot of people that probably score as well, or better than homeschooled kids.

Well I'm going to start off by saying that I am currently a homeschooler. (now I have this terrible feeling that I'm going to spell something wrong or make a typing error......)

I am finishing 10th grade this year. One of the reasons I'm homeschooled is because it lets me work at my own pace. Math and music are my strengths and being homeschooled has let me work ahead in math. I finished Algebra 1 and 2, Trig, Geometry and I did about half a year of Calculus. I couldn't have done that if I went to public school.

I am very independant. I've been homeschooled all my life and I work well on my own. If I have something that needs to be done I don't need someone to look over my shoulder.

Recently I took the Compass test to get into Running Start. I got 99/100 on both the reading and the writing and I tested into Pre Calc. 2.

As for socializing.... I have always had trouble socializing but that is, I believe, for other reasons. I read a lot when I was young and had a very big vocabulary. When I talked to other kids my age they didn't understand what I was saying.... that made it hard to talk to them. It used to take me 3 minutes to simplify a 30 second sentence into words they could understand.

I've always been smart. I have numerous stories that could prove that. (but I don't have numerous hours to type them and it is doubtful that anyone has numerous hours to read them anyway) At co-op it is very boring to sit there listening to a teacher explain something that I understood a long time ago. I don't like to think about what public school would be like 5 days a week.

I hope this has helped. Feel free to send me a telegram if there is anything else I can do or if you have any questions. (I will be gone for a few days but I should be back on monday)
~Guitar Muzic

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(A) That's life, you're going to be stressed out at some point in time no matter what.
Skip to (D) Really? I've never heard of males being singled out as being stupid before.
(E) That is a good point. Sometimes students that need individual attention don't get it because of large class sizes, but at least in my school district their trying to change that a little.
(F) True in a lot of cases, but definitely not always. I know a lot of people that probably score as well, or better than homeschooled kids.
(A) I know that, but as I said, it was unnessecary stress and chaos. If you can prevent some of that stress, why shouldn't you?
(D) Well, they don't actually use the word "stupid". They do reccomend medication and being held back a year and stuff like that.
(F) I know for a fact that homeschoolers score higher than public schoolers on standerdized testing by a margin of 15%.

(A) I know that, but as I said, it was unnessecary stress and chaos. If you can prevent some of that stress, why shouldn't you?
(D) Well, they don't actually use the word "stupid". They do reccomend medication and being held back a year and stuff like that.
(F) I know for a fact that homeschoolers score higher than public schoolers on standerdized testing by a margin of 15%.

(A) Just so I can make a good reply, what would be an example of "unnecessary stress"?
(D) JUST because he is male? The only time I've heard of something like that is if the kid doesn't try, or acts like he/she has ADD or some other learning problem.
(F)I know that statistically homeschoolers score better, I'm just saying that a lot of people I know, myself included, probably score as good or better.

bump

(A) Just so I can make a good reply, what would be an example of "unnecessary stress"?
(D) JUST because he is male? The only time I've heard of something like that is if the kid doesn't try, or acts like he/she has ADD or some other learning problem.
(F)I know that statistically homeschoolers score better, I'm just saying that a lot of people I know, myself included, probably score as good or better.
(A) Let's say there's a family with two kids two years apart in age. Extremely common, right? For a while, one's going to preschool (maybe) and one's going to elementary school. No problem. Then they're both going to elementary school, still not a problem. Well, at one point, you're going to have one kid in elementary school for and the other in middle school for 2 years. Then you'll have one year in the same school and then two years of one being in high school and one being in middle school. The different levels of education (at least in my area) have different times for school starting. It could take 2 or 3 hours from the parent's day just to drop their kids off to and from school. Then there's the actual school experience, socially and academically, heaping on stress, taking eight hours of your day. Then there's homework, which could take hours to complete. It's too much unnessecary stress.
(D) Yes, just because he was male. Every teacher he ever had was harder on him because he was a boy. He didn't take to desk/book learning, so they discriminated against him on the basis of gender.
(F) Would you like to compare scores?

Actually, it was the exact opposite for our family. One of the reasons we didn't like the public system was because it was too religious and intolerant.

Yikes, that sounds scary... :eek:

(A) Let's say there's a family with two kids two years apart in age. Extremely common, right? For a while, one's going to preschool (maybe) and one's going to elementary school. No problem. Then they're both going to elementary school, still not a problem. Well, at one point, you're going to have one kid in elementary school for and the other in middle school for 2 years. Then you'll have one year in the same school and then two years of one being in high school and one being in middle school. The different levels of education (at least in my area) have different times for school starting. It could take 2 or 3 hours from the parent's day just to drop their kids off to and from school. Then there's the actual school experience, socially and academically, heaping on stress, taking eight hours of your day. Then there's homework, which could take hours to complete. It's too much unnessecary stress.
(D) Yes, just because he was male. Every teacher he ever had was harder on him because he was a boy. He didn't take to desk/book learning, so they discriminated against him on the basis of gender.
(F) Would you like to compare scores?

If I was stuck in all day with one of my parents I'd go insane

Yikes, that sounds scary... :eek:
I wish I could find my Code of Student Conduct booklet for y'all. I couldn't even dye my hair any color not found in nature because it would be considered "distracting". :rolleyes:

(A) Let's say there's a family with two kids two years apart in age. Extremely common, right? For a while, one's going to preschool (maybe) and one's going to elementary school. No problem. Then they're both going to elementary school, still not a problem. Well, at one point, you're going to have one kid in elementary school for and the other in middle school for 2 years. Then you'll have one year in the same school and then two years of one being in high school and one being in middle school. The different levels of education (at least in my area) have different times for school starting. It could take 2 or 3 hours from the parent's day just to drop their kids off to and from school. Then there's the actual school experience, socially and academically, heaping on stress, taking eight hours of your day. Then there's homework, which could take hours to complete. It's too much unnessecary stress.
(D) Yes, just because he was male. Every teacher he ever had was harder on him because he was a boy. He didn't take to desk/book learning, so they discriminated against him on the basis of gender.
(F) Would you like to compare scores?

(A) I kind of understand what you're saying. Homework was the only stress I really had this last school year. My parents don't have the same problem your parents might have had. We live in a smaller town, and my brother, sister, and I are all in walking range of school.
(D) That really sucks for your brother, never heard of anything like that before.
(F)I suppose....
On my standardized tests I know that my core total was in the 99th percentile. I think my language total was 99 (all scores in percentile), my reading total was also around 98 or 99, and my math score was a little bit lower at 97 (if I remember correctly).

If I was stuck in all day with one of my parents I'd go insane
My mother works part time, and my father works full time. I like to spend my time in my room, my sanctuary. I'm not usually in that position.

(I've never heard of males being singled out as being stupid before.

I have. It's unfortunate that since Mr. Statistics says that girls generally do better than boys by a small margin, most teachers take this as gospel. This offends me. In my classes at school, I'd say I was smarter than 75% of the girls, and on a similar intellect with the rest. Except in Electronics and Computing. There are no girls.

My mother works part time, and my father works full time. I like to spend my time in my room, my sanctuary. I'm not usually in that position.

So your on your own or with a sibling because either dosen't sound much better

I have. It's unfortunate that since Mr. Statistics says that girls generally do better than boys by a small margin, most teachers take this as gospel. This offends me. In my classes at school, I'd say I was smarter than 75% of the girls, and on a similar intellect with the rest. Except in Electronics and Computing. There are no girls.

Those aren't the same statistics I've heard. I've always heard that girls are generally (not always) smarter in elementary school, about the same as boys in middle school, and that boys generally (again, not always) come out on top in high school and college.

I'm just wondering why there is such an appeal amongst certain circles for homeschooling. I understand some of the reasons given - better to not have the children indoctrinated by an appendage of the state, and so on. Very legitimate claim, I suppose.

At the same time, I'm trying to figure out what would make a parent academically qualified to teach the children. What percentage of the population in the U.S. has a masters degree - and how many of those hold degrees in maths and science? I'm assuming it's not a very high number. I mean, given that there is no lack of bad parenting in this country, how can we expect a homeschool based society to be any better off?

Anyway, try to convert this sceptic to the pro-homeschooling club.

People homeschool for a variety of reasons, from relative safety (some schools are little more than day-care centres run by incompetents that resemble Demilitarized zones), to your aforementioned distrust of the State. (EARNED distrust). Consider this: schools more and more use videotapes instead of lectures. I can play that same tape on my home VCR, give the kid a standardized fill-in-the-dots test, and I don't have to worry about him or her being introduced to cocaine, or anal sex (the latter by the Paedophile in front of the chalkboard.)

The main reason, is frustration-educational standards are so shoddy kids are walking out of high-school with third and fourth grade reading levels and a diploma suitable for use as a toilet-paper substitute.

Moral Cowardice on the part of Administrators is also a factor-Zero Tolerance policies are proving to be hedging deeply into the ridiculous, with students being expelled for bringing a toy gun appropriate for use with a 3" tall action figure, or aspirin... while the same schools pressure parents to put their kids on drugs that are better than the shit you buy on the street-because the Teachers aren't skilled at handling students.


A Parent can discipline their little hellspawn without living in fear of a lawsuit. Public Schools have become warehouses where only a small percentage of the clients actually learn anything past the age of around twelve, where Administrators are afraid of their own shadows, and the few good teachers don't have the authority to do their jobs.

(D) Well, they don't actually use the word "stupid". They do reccomend medication and being held back a year and stuff like that.

I highly doubt it is because he is male.

That said, lots of children get overdiagnosed when they simply need a different kind of attention. This is not a problem with public schools - but with particular teachers within them.

(F) I know for a fact that homeschoolers score higher than public schoolers on standerdized testing by a margin of 15%.

How many homeschoolers never take the tests? How many public school children get out of taking it?

I highly doubt it is because he is male.

That said, lots of children get overdiagnosed when they simply need a different kind of attention. This is not a problem with public schools - but with particular teachers within them.



How many homeschoolers never take the tests? How many public school children get out of taking it?

I don't know about other schools, but in my school you HAVE to take those tests. You don't have an option.

Those aren't the same statistics I've heard. I've always heard that girls are generally (not always) smarter in elementary school, about the same as boys in middle school, and that boys generally (again, not always) come out on top in high school and college.

It's different statistics because we live in different contients. In Britain, we just have Primary and Secondary School, when it comes to compulsory education. In the A levels/Highers (depends on whether you are English or Scottish), girls have a higher pass rate, so boys are assumed to be incapable of bookwork. Whilst this is true in some cases, in others the boys are just as good at bookwork as girls.

I don't know about other schools, but in my school you HAVE to take those tests. You don't have an option.

Exactly. Every public school student must take standardized tests. All homeschooled students do not. Thus, only those whose parents are truly making an effort to prepare them for bigger and better things take the test - hence, the higher average scores.

I doubt that anyone would dispute that a well-qualified parent could direct their childrens' education and prepare that child for college and the rest of the world. However, all parents are not qualified to do so. How exactly do we ensure that those children whose parents keep them home actually are getting a proper education?

It's different statistics because we live in different contients. In Britain, we just have Primary and Secondary School, when it comes to compulsory education. In the A levels/Highers (depends on whether you are English or Scottish), girls have a higher pass rate, so boys are assumed to be incapable of bookwork. Whilst this is true in some cases, in others the boys are just as good at bookwork as girls.

In the states, boys often cave to peer pressure that says it isn't ok to do well in school. Thus, gifted and honors classes generally have more females, while males stay away because it wouldn't be "cool". Many also do not really attempt to get good grades for the same reason. When I was in high school, I saw more than one group of guys proudly comparing how many classes they had failed - as if it was a badge of honor. This is an unfortunate stereotype that we should certainly do away with.

It's different statistics because we live in different contients. In Britain, we just have Primary and Secondary School, when it comes to compulsory education. In the A levels/Highers (depends on whether you are English or Scottish), girls have a higher pass rate, so boys are assumed to be incapable of bookwork. Whilst this is true in some cases, in others the boys are just as good at bookwork as girls.

I'm not sure why such a big deal is made of guys doing worse than girls acadmically when we're still getting the better jobs and earning more.

In the states, boys often cave to peer pressure that says it isn't ok to do well in school. Thus, gifted and honors classes generally have more females, while males stay away because it wouldn't be "cool". Many also do not really attempt to get good grades for the same reason. When I was in high school, I saw more than one group of guys proudly comparing how many classes they had failed - as if it was a badge of honor. This is an unfortunate stereotype that we should certainly do away with.

Again, I've heard completely different things. I was told by a teacher that many girls "dumb themselves down" in high school because generally boys don't like having a girlfriend that's smarter than them. I don't know if that is true AT ALL, that's just what I've been told.

Im wondering why in america parents seem to have the time to homeschool their children. Here in Germany either both parents work and therefore would not have the time to homeschool thier children -unless they can work autonomously quite well- or at least one parent has low education themselves and therefore cannot homeschool.
I doubt any parent would be ready to give up their job to home school their child.
But we have got to go to school here at all.

Again, I've heard completely different things. I was told by a teacher that many girls "dumb themselves down" in high school because generally boys don't like having a girlfriend that's smarter than them. I don't know if that is true AT ALL, that's just what I've been told.

That happens as well. Those girls who are in the upper classes often don't date much - or at all. However, it is less true these days than it was, say, a generation ago. I know that my friends and I were all told that boys might be intimidated by us, but that we should never, under any circumstances, act dumb for a boy.

The underlying problem is the idea that it isn't "cool" to be smart or to excel. That is what we really need to address.

(A) I kind of understand what you're saying. Homework was the only stress I really had this last school year. My parents don't have the same problem your parents might have had. We live in a smaller town, and my brother, sister, and I are all in walking range of school.
(D) That really sucks for your brother, never heard of anything like that before.
(F)I suppose....
On my standardized tests I know that my core total was in the 99th percentile. I think my language total was 99 (all scores in percentile), my reading total was also around 98 or 99, and my math score was a little bit lower at 97 (if I remember correctly).
(A) We could walk if we wanted, but we are 30 walking minutes away from the elementary school and more from the middle school.
(F) I scored slightly lower than that, but I was compared against other homeschoolers. My CATs (California Achievement Test):

SUBJECT................CORRECT/TOTAL.PERCENT.STANINE*
Vocabulary............-19/20...............86..........7
Comprehension.......-18/20...............70..........6
Language Mechanics-17/20...............82.........7
Language Expression-18/20...............81.........7
Math Computation...-19/20...............97.........9
Concept&Application-19/20...............93.........8
Reading Total.........-37/40...............83.........7
Language Total......-35/40...............82..........7
Mathematics Total..-38/40...............97..........9


Composite Percentile: 89
*Stanine Scores: 1, 2, 3-below average. 3, 5, 6-average. 7, 8, 9-above average.

In the states, boys often cave to peer pressure that says it isn't ok to do well in school. Thus, gifted and honors classes generally have more females, while males stay away because it wouldn't be "cool". Many also do not really attempt to get good grades for the same reason. When I was in high school, I saw more than one group of guys proudly comparing how many classes they had failed - as if it was a badge of honor. This is an unfortunate stereotype that we should certainly do away with.

I know what you mean. Whilst we don't have boys comparing failures, I have seen a lot of people (mainly boys) who walk out of the exam room confident, almost proud, in their failure. They just don't compare them. Yet. I do well in my subjects apart from P.E, so I have been ridiculed all my life. I agree that the stereotype has to be abolished, but that's easier said than done.

(A) We could walk if we wanted, but we are 30 walking minutes away from the elementary school and more from the middle school.
(F) I scored slightly lower than that, but I was compared against other homeschoolers. My CATs (California Achievement Test):

SUBJECT................CORRECT/TOTAL.PERCENT.STANINE*
Vocabulary............-19/20...............86..........7
Comprehension.......-18/20...............70..........6
Language Mechanics-17/20...............82.........7
Language Expression-18/20...............81.........7
Math Computation...-19/20...............97.........9
Concept&Application-19/20...............93.........8
Reading Total.........-37/40...............83.........7
Language Total......-35/40...............82..........7
Mathematics Total..-38/40...............97..........9


Composite Percentile: 89
*Stanine Scores: 1, 2, 3-below average. 3, 5, 6-average. 7, 8, 9-above average.

Well, by walking range, I mean just a few blocks. It takes my brother and I about five minutes to walk home, and my sister about 15 minutes.

So your on your own or with a sibling because either dosen't sound much better
I learn better when I go at my own pace. I think that can be said for everyone.

Again, I've heard completely different things. I was told by a teacher that many girls "dumb themselves down" in high school because generally boys don't like having a girlfriend that's smarter than them. I don't know if that is true AT ALL, that's just what I've been told.

HAHAHA thats funny. Are girls really that much slaves to men?
About intelligence of men/women:
Average is about the same, but mathematically speaking deviation is higher for men. So there are more stupid males than stupid females and more intelligent men than intelligent women.

(A) We could walk if we wanted, but we are 30 walking minutes away from the elementary school and more from the middle school.
(F) I scored slightly lower than that, but I was compared against other homeschoolers. My CATs (California Achievement Test):

SUBJECT................CORRECT/TOTAL.PERCENT.STANINE*
Vocabulary............-19/20...............86..........7
Comprehension.......-18/20...............70..........6
Language Mechanics-17/20...............82.........7
Language Expression-18/20...............81.........7
Math Computation...-19/20...............97.........9
Concept&Application-19/20...............93.........8
Reading Total.........-37/40...............83.........7
Language Total......-35/40...............82..........7
Mathematics Total..-38/40...............97..........9


Composite Percentile: 89
*Stanine Scores: 1, 2, 3-below average. 3, 5, 6-average. 7, 8, 9-above average.

I didn't think it mattered if you were homeschooled or not, I thought you were compared to everyone who took that test. Anyway, I take the ITBS (Iowa Test of Basic Skills), so that may have something to do with it. Although I am kind of proud of my scores.....maybe I'm not as smart as homeschooled kids, but I'll never encounter them so I guess it doesn't matter.

Who has the right to say what is "proper education" for someone else's child? I suppose you can chalk me up as a "fudie" or whatever else derogatory term you want to use to throw names at people who are Christians, but the most important thing for me is that my children know Christ and the Bible. I just also happen to believe that my children because they are homeschooled will probably outperform in almost every area another child who is not homeschooled. It's a fringe benefit of the process. My 1st grade age child (although I hate using public school terms like "1st grade") is studying Latin this year.

The #1 problem with the education structure in the United States is that it is run by the government. How many government programs do you know that are more effective than private ones?

Another point:
* If a child misses a day of school or falls behind in some area of instruction, the class proceeds and the child who misses that time MUST catch up to everyone else or fall through the cracks. Home school children learn at their own pace. If they get something quickly, they quickly move on. If they don't pick up on something quickly, they stay on it until they do. Much superior to what we have in public education.

Alot of people here denounce the Public School system. Well, many schools are bad, but that's largely due to inadequate teachers mroe than anything. The high school I went was superb, with teachers who actually care about their jobs. Many of them don't just recite crap from textbooks. There were a few who did, but the majority actually TAUGHT. You have to have the right environment, but the public schools are actually pretty damn good.

The problem I have with home schooling is that most people are not prepared to teach. I have met homeschooled people who have had both spectrums: Not good homeschooling and very good homeschooling. The option should be available for homeschooling, but it is impractical. If everyone homeschooled, America would be a very stupid place.

"maybe I'm not as smart as homeschooled kids, but I'll never encounter them so I guess it doesn't matter. "


Not yet. But you'll probably end up working for one of them some day :)

I didn't think it mattered if you were homeschooled or not, I thought you were compared to everyone who took that test. Anyway, I take the ITBS (Iowa Test of Basic Skills), so that may have something to do with it. Although I am kind of proud of my scores.....maybe I'm not as smart as homeschooled kids, but I'll never encounter them so I guess it doesn't matter.
In every standardized test I've ever taken so far as a homeschooler, I was compared only to other homeschoolers. BTW, if you want to know how much stress homeschooling takes off, go ahead, ask me what the state of Alabama requires of homeschoolers.

"maybe I'm not as smart as homeschooled kids, but I'll never encounter them so I guess it doesn't matter. "


Not yet. But you'll probably end up working for one of them some day :)

If I stay smart in public school, I might be working as an equal. After all I'll probably go to the same college as homeschooled kids (don't tell me kids can get homeschooled during college too).

"If everyone homeschooled, America would be a very stupid place."

That's an opinion. I actually believe America hasn't produced through our current system children that are as intelligent as they could be if they were all home schooled. For one to think otherwise, you would have to have had a public school education.

In every standardized test I've ever taken so far as a homeschooler, I was compared only to other homeschoolers. BTW, if you want to know how much stress homeschooling takes off, go ahead, ask me what the state of Alabama requires of homeschoolers.

Is that where you live? I was curious about that earlier. Okay, I'll play along. What does the state of Alabama require of homeschoolers?

Who has the right to say what is "proper education" for someone else's child? I suppose you can chalk me up as a "fudie" or whatever else derogatory term you want to use to throw names at people who are Christians, but the most important thing for me is that my children know Christ and the Bible.

I believe that it is every person's right to chose which religion they want to have, so teaching about religion is completely alright, but wont you as well teach them to be "good Christians"?
And moreover: What if someone decides that their children should be tought to believe only muslims have human rights? Would you still say nobody has the right to intervene here?

Alot of people here denounce the Public School system. Well, many schools are bad, but that's largely due to inadequate teachers mroe than anything. The high school I went was superb, with teachers who actually care about their jobs. Many of them don't just recite crap from textbooks. There were a few who did, but the majority actually TAUGHT. You have to have the right environment, but the public schools are actually pretty damn good.

The problem I have with home schooling is that most people are not prepared to teach. I have met homeschooled people who have had both spectrums: Not good homeschooling and very good homeschooling. The option should be available for homeschooling, but it is impractical. If everyone homeschooled, America would be a very stupid place.
Well, that's great, but not everyone has access to your superteachers.

You don't even have to be able to teach to homeschool. You can give your kid self-teaching materials. Are you saying that America isn't already a stupid place?

Is that where you live? I was curious about that earlier. Okay, I'll play along. What does the state of Alabama require of homeschoolers?
They require ONLY... a certain number of days in attendance, and that you either join a cover school or start your own.

What does my cover school require of me? Grades and attendance to two major events each year, which can be waived. Some cover schools don't even require that.

Stress level: minimum! :D

(The following message may seem like a fabrication, but I assure you that it is entirely true. Fat chance you'll believe me though.)

I've been home schooled for most of my life, but I've also spent some time in public schools, enough to know that home schooling is MUCH better than public schooling so long as the home schooling teacher (a tutor, a parent, etc.) is actually good for something.

My mom was an excellent teacher and I excelled under her tutelage. On the other hand, only three of my public school teachers (a 2nd grade teacher, a 4th grade teacher, and Mrs. Allen, my 7th and 8th grade history teacher) ever bothered to teach me anything.

Other teachers actually tried to make me stupider - my aforementioned 4th grade teacher helped my math work to the point that I was doing 6th grade math problems with ease. In 5th grade I was forced to use a "cheat sheet" mutliplication chart by the faculty on threat of expulsion. I've had nothing but failing grades in math ever since.

During 2nd grade, I went to two different elementary schools - Shorehaven, where I had a relatively good time (barring being accused of assault by a group of 5th graders and receiving a week's suspension, and my cousin who was also going to the school was beaten by a teacher - not your average spanking for whatnot, he was punched out by an African American teacher for being white), and another school in Nocona where the teacher was fond of locking me in the classroom throughout lunch and recess and making me do 4th grade English problems.

In either 5th or 6th grade (can't remember), right after Columbine, the principal noticed me wearing camo pants to school and made up some story about how the students "were afraid of me" and ordered my parents to take me to a psychiatrist (under threat of being taken away by CPS), who turned out to be some crazy Jehovah's Witness who said I was "possessed" and wanted to perform an exorcism on me - we never went back again. Didn't help that the place she worked at was called "The Center" either (bit of an inside joke, those who've seen The Pretender series on television should get it).

In 7th grade, the principal at Wolfe City Junior High, Coach Felty, took a mysterious disliking to me. I suspect it was because I made better scores than his nephew, who before was the smartest person in the school (and that wasn't saying much). After his order to my parents that they tell me to "lower myself to the level of the other students" was rejected, he had a student transferred from a nearby "secondary school" (read: juveneille hall with chalkboards and desks) and sicced him on me - that plan crashed and burned too when, instead of becoming enemies, we wound up becoming good buddies. One week later he was expelled. A second week goes by, and a member of the basketball team randomly slugs me on my way to class. Felty says he'd look into it, never hear about it again.

Following that summer, I returned to WCJH for 8th grade, where Felty once again got after me. Within the second month of school I was jumped by three kids on the football field during PE, but the cowards saw a teacher coming and split before much more than a few suckerpunches were thrown. Felty shot down my parent's complaints and they withdrew me from the school. About a year later we heard that Felty had been arrested for soliciting one of the cheerleaders - along with the town sheriff. A complaint had been filled with the police department of a neighboring town.

The next year, I started my freshmen year in high school (in a new town), where I did well enough, mostly due to my cousin's influence. Three of my cousins also attended school there, and were arguably the most "popular" students in the school - my cousin Phillip for being the biggest jock, my cousin Joshua for being the biggest lady's man (got caught seksing in the halls and was thrown in In School Suspension, ISS teacher walks out to grab some coffee, comes in, there's Josh getting it on with ANOTHER chick right there on the teacher's desk), and my cousin Richard for being that weird senior in drama class with the killer Jim Carrey impersonation.

My sophmore year was more rocky however. Richard graduated, Joshua was expelled and Phillip's girlfriend got pregnant so he dropped out to marry her and get a job. Things came to a head when some random jock decides to try out the wet-towel whipping thing on me during PE. I tell him to knock it off and he slugs me. Teacher does nothing. Next day, I get thrown in detention for starting a fight. Withdrew from the school and haven't been to public school since.

On the other hand, my homeschooling efforts were well rewarded - by 2nd grade, my first public school experience that I remember (my mom swears up and down she had me in preschool, but I don't remember it), I was reading at high school level. I also wrote a short story (based on Legos, go figure) during that time that my teacher is, last I heard, still showing to her students to this day. During 8th grade (before I was withdrawn from WCJH), I wound up subbing for my American History class when Mrs. Allen went to West Texas for a horse show (only in Texas) and the sub the school brought in didn't know the material.

Currently I'm spending my 12th grade year studying world history (emphasis on Japanese history and Russian Soviet-era history), Sovietology (the study of the former Soviet Union, including history, military facts, and Communism/Socialism), and doing preliminary writing on a science fiction novel, among other nonprofit fanfiction works. I also hang out here and debate shit with you people. :P

All in all, I believe that, in the hands of the right tutor or parent, homeschooling can be an awesome tool of instruction that easily dwarfs most public schooling. There are some homeschooling curriculums that make things easier too - most of my homeschooling was done with the PACE program, a Christian-oriented homeschooling program, but my parents eventually stopped using that when it became too expensive and it was agreed by consensus between my parents and I that the material was somewhat intolerant and hypocritical (my parents may be fundamentalist Christians, but you won't catch them agreeing that Catholics are heretics and Muslims evil - far from it, they'll be bitchslapping the hypocrite who tries to say that sort of shit).

However, in the hands of the wrong sort of tutor or parent...well, there's always the School of Hard Knocks.

They require ONLY... a certain number of days in attendance, and that you either join a cover school or start your own.

What does my cover school require of me? Grades and attendance to two major events each year, which can be waived. Some cover schools don't even require that.

Stress level: minimum! :D

Cool. But I would never leave public school. I'm too attached to it, having friends at school an all. Besides, my dad is a calculus teacher at a public school, he'd never go for homeschooling.

Anyway, this thread isn't good for my self esteem. I used to think I was fairly smart.

By the way, I go to school in Nebraska.

That's an opinion. I actually believe America hasn't produced through our current system children that are as intelligent as they could be if they were all home schooled.

What about those, whose parents do not have time for their children because theyve got to go to work?
What about those whose parents have dont even spreak proper English (or the working language of a different country they live in?

Homeschooling is basically illegal in Austria since there's compulsory education around here and well, I fully support this.

Honestly, I consider homeschooling a joke, a step back in time.

I myself, was homeschooled. I also happened to be smarter than most of my peers. I tried the High School for 1 month and realized that it was not challenging enough for me. I was smarter than most of the kids that I was with as well as a couple of teachers.

Homeschooling taught me far more about life than the public eduactional school system could ever do for me. It also prepared me better for college courses and college life in general.

What about those, whose parents do not have time for their children because theyve got to go to work?
What about those whose parents have dont even spreak proper English (or the working language of a different country they live in?
As I have said, homeschool students can be self-taught in almost every area. For the others, they can take classes in a local homeschool-supported program.

As I have said, homeschool students can be self-taught in almost every area. For the others, they can take classes in a local homeschool-supported program.

I happen to know a lot of students who have non-English speaking parents, and would DEFINITELY not teach themselves anything, because they simply do not care about school.

Cool. But I would never leave public school. I'm too attached to it, having friends at school an all. Besides, my dad is a calculus teacher at a public school, he'd never go for homeschooling.

Anyway, this thread isn't good for my self esteem. I used to think I was fairly smart.
You could still socialize with your friends and even make new ones if you were homeschooled. Some homeschoolers ARE intolerant Christians, but a good bit are cool pagan types whose parents have nose piercings and stuff. (Friend of my mom's!) :p

As I have said, homeschool students can be self-taught in almost every area. For the others, they can take classes in a local homeschool-supported program.

Republicans Armed wanted some kind of homeschooling-only. That was what i was opposing to.

You could still socialize with your friends and even make new ones if you were homeschooled. Some homeschoolers ARE intolerant Christians, but a good bit are cool pagan types whose parents have nose piercings and stuff. (Friend of my mom's!) :p

Yeah. Anyway, as I said before, the homeschooling thing will never happen for me. My dad's a teacher, there's just no way.

Republicans Armed wanted some kind of homeschooling-only. That was what i was opposing to.
Well, I don't agree with that, but I didn't agree with you either.

Yeah. Anyway, as I said before, the homeschooling thing will never happen for me. My dad's a teacher, there's just no way.
Yeah. A lot of teachers are against the idea of homeschooling for some reason. I guess they overthink the level of difficulty or something like that.

Yeah. A lot of teachers are against the idea of homeschooling for some reason. I guess they overthink the level of difficulty or something like that.

It's not that. I just think he feels like it would be going against his bosses and his job to have me homeschooled. Also, I think he wants me to be "normal" and have the high school experience (I'm going to be a freshman next year). Besides, people may think Nebraskans are a bunch of stupid farm kids, but in my opinion we have a pretty good public education system (at least in my town).

Well, I don't agree with that, but I didn't agree with you either.

My position that not each parent (in combination with their child) has the skills and time to home school?

A question I have is, do you know of any, um, less than smart homeschooled kids?

A question I have is, do you know of any, um, less than smart homeschooled kids?

I haven't run across any and I, myself, was homeschooled.

Well I'm going to start off by saying that I am currently a homeschooler. (now I have this terrible feeling that I'm going to spell something wrong or make a typing error......)

I am finishing 10th grade this year. One of the reasons I'm homeschooled is because it lets me work at my own pace. Math and music are my strengths and being homeschooled has let me work ahead in math. I finished Algebra 1 and 2, Trig, Geometry and I did about half a year of Calculus. I couldn't have done that if I went to public school.

I am very independant. I've been homeschooled all my life and I work well on my own. If I have something that needs to be done I don't need someone to look over my shoulder.

Recently I took the Compass test to get into Running Start. I got 99/100 on both the reading and the writing and I tested into Pre Calc. 2.

As for socializing.... I have always had trouble socializing but that is, I believe, for other reasons. I read a lot when I was young and had a very big vocabulary. When I talked to other kids my age they didn't understand what I was saying.... that made it hard to talk to them. It used to take me 3 minutes to simplify a 30 second sentence into words they could understand.

I've always been smart. I have numerous stories that could prove that. (but I don't have numerous hours to type them and it is doubtful that anyone has numerous hours to read them anyway) At co-op it is very boring to sit there listening to a teacher explain something that I understood a long time ago. I don't like to think about what public school would be like 5 days a week.

I hope this has helped. Feel free to send me a telegram if there is anything else I can do or if you have any questions. (I will be gone for a few days but I should be back on monday)
~Guitar Muzic
Public school for the past two years, heading into 11, testing into AP Calc (AB), AP Chem, AP US History, and AP Gov. You can do it in public school too.

As mentioned before, Homeschooling can be both good and bad. Homeschooling works as long as the parent's are good teachers. I only say this because my girlfriend was homeschooled by her obsessively christian parents who replaced most of her real classes regarding sciences and some math with biblical studies.

Now she resents christianity, is terribly behind in her education and has moved away from her mom. She's living with her dad but stays with me most of the time. She was hoping to get a G.E.D. but understands that just attending a real High School would be a better idea - however, her only experiences with a normal school was during a year in middle school getting teased by kids (we all remember how mean kids could be). In truth, she's irrationally afraid of attending high school because of both past experiences and fear of that unknown 'system' her parent instilled a fear into since her youth; she's smart but currently under-educated; and she's having trouble simply finishing the first leg of her education.

I'm trying to help her out so she can have a good, comfortable future, but this is the situation that simply makes me think that the potential hurt that can come from Homeschool may outweight the good. Better to have everyone in a real school than to be taught at parents. At home, there is less exposure to a social setting that will prepare one to be social in the future. Plus; we may all love our parents but we know not all our parents can make the best decisions for our future (read. replace secular classes with xtian classes)

My daughter, and all my future children, will be homeschooled, simply for the fact that I consider 99% of American teachers ignorant, close-minded jackasses, or arrogant, pompous jackasses. In my own 13 years of schooling, I was shocked at the ignorance of those who were supposed to be teaching -me-. Also shocking was their tendency to let the slackers and idiots slip by, passing them just to get them out of their hair, while I busted my ass to get what I had.

Now, I studied, but not because of some fear of reprimand or failure. It was simply because I hungered for knowledge. I wanted to learn. I didn't -need- to study to pass my classes, because I had seen hundreds of other kids scrape by on the bare minimum and still be allowed to go ahead.

I can rely on myself to demand excellence from my kids instead of allowing them to slip by, making do with mediocre achievements so -I- will teach them, rather than some idiot with a three year degree from Bonghit, Arkansas Community College.

A little story, to illustrate my point. My senior year of High School, we had a joint project, we could combine our History and English final essays, and get credit for both. So, I chose to write about the pre-WWII invasion of Manchuria by the Japanese. I had a number of solid sources already picked out, and a good idea of where I wanted to go with this paper.

But, speaking to both of my teachers, I got this: "Well, we don't know anything about that, so why don't you pick something else?"

That might seem like an extreme example, but I assure you, by and large that is the way things are, at least around here. One incident like that was enough to sour me on public education, much less the dozens of other times shit like that went on.

The social development of kids in schools -is- important, however, but my own kids can make friends outside of school, without the chance of being shot/stabbed/teased/ or otherwise fucked with, which would cause daddy to flip out and push some bitch-ass kids down in the mud.

Yeah.

Home schooling? I've heard of that stuff. From what i have heard mostly Christian fundies want this because they don't want their children to be taught about sex and evolution...

or revisionist history... IE, history written by crazy liberals.

hehe

A little story, to illustrate my point. My senior year of High School, we had a joint project, we could combine our History and English final essays, and get credit for both. So, I chose to write about the pre-WWII invasion of Manchuria by the Japanese. I had a number of solid sources already picked out, and a good idea of where I wanted to go with this paper.

But, speaking to both of my teachers, I got this: "Well, we don't know anything about that, so why don't you pick something else?"

I can belive that. In my school, we aren't discouraged from pursuing topics the teachers don't know about, the teachers just sidestep those topics.

At this point in time my views have changed from "bad in principle" to "good in certain circumstances". If you wanted to know.

My daughter, and all my future children, will be homeschooled, simply for the fact that I consider 99% of American teachers ignorant, close-minded jackasses, or arrogant, pompous jackasses. In my own 13 years of schooling, I was shocked at the ignorance of those who were supposed to be teaching -me-. Also shocking was their tendency to let the slackers and idiots slip by, passing them just to get them out of their hair, while I busted my ass to get what I had.

Now, I studied, but not because of some fear of reprimand or failure. It was simply because I hungered for knowledge. I wanted to learn. I didn't -need- to study to pass my classes, because I had seen hundreds of other kids scrape by on the bare minimum and still be allowed to go ahead.

I can rely on myself to demand excellence from my kids instead of allowing them to slip by, making do with mediocre achievements so -I- will teach them, rather than some idiot with a three year degree from Bonghit, Arkansas Community College.

A little story, to illustrate my point. My senior year of High School, we had a joint project, we could combine our History and English final essays, and get credit for both. So, I chose to write about the pre-WWII invasion of Manchuria by the Japanese. I had a number of solid sources already picked out, and a good idea of where I wanted to go with this paper.

But, speaking to both of my teachers, I got this: "Well, we don't know anything about that, so why don't you pick something else?"

That might seem like an extreme example, but I assure you, by and large that is the way things are, at least around here. One incident like that was enough to sour me on public education, much less the dozens of other times shit like that went on.

The social development of kids in schools -is- important, however, but my own kids can make friends outside of school, without the chance of being shot/stabbed/teased/ or otherwise fucked with, which would cause daddy to flip out and push some bitch-ass kids down in the mud.

Yeah.


here here!

or revisionist history... IE, history written by crazy liberals.

hehe
Yeah, damn liberal history books teaching about the Paris Commun...oh wait.

Exactly. Every public school student must take standardized tests. All homeschooled students do not. Thus, only those whose parents are truly making an effort to prepare them for bigger and better things take the test - hence, the higher average scores.There are states in the USA that require homeschoolers to take standardized tests, at least in some years of school. I know Georgia and PA do, but I'm not going to go through all of this (http://www.nhen.org/leginfo/state_list.asp) list to find every one.

There are states in the USA that require homeschoolers to take standardized tests, at least in some years of school. I know Georgia and PA do, but I'm not going to go through all of this (http://www.nhen.org/leginfo/state_list.asp) list to find every one.

PA is right. I had to take those tests.

My daughter, and all my future children, will be homeschooled, simply for the fact that I consider 99% of American teachers ignorant, close-minded jackasses, or arrogant, pompous jackasses.



If you hadn't said "I consider" before that post, indicating that you probably recognize that it is your opinion, not necessarily fact, I would be very angry about that post.

I have been homeschooled since I was about six years old. My parents tried putting me in the public school system, but they wouldn't take me early (I was a little young, as I recall) because my birthdate fell behind one cutoff or another. So they asked if they could wait until next year, and put me in second grade. They said no, I wouldn't be mentally prepared for it.

At this point, it must be mentioned, I learned to read and write (my handwriting sucked, but it was legible) before I was two and half years old, and at the time this public school foray was occuring, I had just finished reading The Indian and the Cupboard, a 200+ page chapter book, while the rest of my laughably so-called "peers" were still fumbling over the adventures of Dick, Jane, and Spot.

My parents didn't want me to be held back because of my age, so they homeschooled me, and I thank whatever higher powers exist to this day that they made that decision.

Why, you ask?

I'm currently 14 years old, have a best pair of 1180 on the SAT, with a 530 in math (not spectacular, but mathematics was never my strong point) and a 650 in verbal. The 650 score I'm particularly proud of, as it represents 89th percentile, out of everyone who has taken the SAT, nationwide. I'm attending Ball State University part-time (we live half an hour away from it, which was a stroke of luck), currently doing an accelerated Latin course over the summer. I'm trying to get them to let me attend full-time by next year, but I'm not sure if that'll work out.

If you asked me, judging from the experiences of my friends in the public school system, I would never have reached this point if I had gone that route. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it would have worked out just as fine, if not better. But going with my gut instinct? Hah. Right.

Yeah, 'kay. There's my two cents.

I don't have a problem with homeschooling, but so far about every homeschooler who has posted makes it seem like public school students are....inferior. Like you can't go to public school and be intelligent and successful.

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I have been homeschooled since I was about six years old. My parents tried putting me in the public school system, but they wouldn't take me early (I was a little young, as I recall) because my birthdate fell behind one cutoff or another. So they asked if they could wait until next year, and put me in second grade. They said no, I wouldn't be mentally prepared for it.

At this point, it must be mentioned, I learned to read and write (my handwriting sucked, but it was legible) before I was two and half years old, and at the time this public school foray was occuring, I had just finished reading The Indian and the Cupboard, a 200+ page chapter book, while the rest of my laughably so-called "peers" were still fumbling over the adventures of Dick, Jane, and Spot.

My parents didn't want me to be held back because of my age, so they homeschooled me, and I thank whatever higher powers exist to this day that they made that decision.

Why, you ask?

I'm currently 14 years old, have a best pair of 1180 on the SAT, with a 530 in math (not spectacular, but mathematics was never my strong point) and a 650 in verbal. The 650 score I'm particularly proud of, as it represents 89th percentile, out of everyone who has taken the SAT, nationwide. I'm attending Ball State University part-time (we live half an hour away from it, which was a stroke of luck), currently doing an accelerated Latin course over the summer. I'm trying to get them to let me attend full-time by next year, but I'm not sure if that'll work out.

If you asked me, judging from the experiences of my friends in the public school system, I would never have reached this point if I had gone that route. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it would have worked out just as fine, if not better. But going with my gut instinct? Hah. Right.

Yeah, 'kay. There's my two cents.
Honestly, quit with the self-back-patting. I had a 1270 when I was 13, so you're nothing too hot, and I went to public schools (am going).

(BTW, 690 verbal. So close yet so far from breaking the coveted 700 barrier >. >)

I don't have a problem with homeschooling, but so far about every homeschooler who has posted makes it seem like public school students are....inferior. Like you can't go to public school and be intelligent and successful.
Well, you must understand. I made the switch from public schooling to homeschooling. For me, that meant trying to convince my father, who was very, very, against it, that homeschooling was superior to public schooling. For me, public schooling is inferior. I have no problems with the students, per se, and obviously, you can be successful if you are publicly schooled, and I don't believe I ever said anything to the contrary.

I don't have a problem with homeschooling, but so far about every homeschooler who has posted makes it seem like public school students are....inferior. Like you can't go to public school and be intelligent and successful.

I don't think -anyone- has made that claim, or has even hinted at it.

But, by and large the kids at the public schools I attended -were- inferior. Not all of them, but definately most. Perhaps that's because I live in a shithole where %40 of the population are Mexicans who barely speak/read/understand English, 20% are Mexican's who can't speak/read/understand -any- english, 35% are white people who could care less what their kids learn or don't learn, and the remaining 5% are the oddballs who actually -do- give a shit.

Of the dozen or so homeschooled kids I've known, none have struggled with reading or writing, and most do well at mathematics as well. On the other hand, I distinctly remember kids who had made it all the way into High School who could barely read. That is the problem I have with public schooling. Idiots and half-assers can slip through the cracks and still get a diploma exactly like my own.

So, you can go to public school and be intelligent and successful, but I wouldn't rely on them to teach you the stuff you need and make you -learn- it, not just hear it.

(Edited to add: Once again, this is only in my area. I've never attended school anywhere but around thi city, so maybe other schools really are different, but so far nothing I've seen in other parts of the country tell me different.)

So, you can go to public school and be intelligent and successful, but I wouldn't rely on them to teach you the stuff you need and make you -learn- it, not just hear it.

Too true. Here in Scotland, we have the Standard Grades* (don't know a U.S equivalent), whereby 1 is top of the Credit Level, and 6 the bottom of Foundation. Sounds okay, doesn't it? Even underachivers can still get something. That's true, but there is another grade, Grade 7. This is for people who quite literally attend the exam, write their name et cetera and nothing else. It's a patronising system that means that overall effort is decreasing because they can still get something.

*Further explination of the Standard Grades.
At SG, there are 3 levels; Credit, General and Foundation. The Grades are as follows:
Credit-1 and 2
General-3 and 4
Foundation-5 and 6
Course Completed-7

Everyone sits General level. People who struggle at this also sit Foundation as a "safety net". People capable of work more demanding than General sit Credit, thereby making General the "safety net". Just in case you were wondering.

I guess I just don't understand what is so horrible about public school. It's probably because the public schooling where I live is actually pretty good, at least I don't see much wrong with it. It's not perfect, of course. There are always kids that bring down the rest of us as far as the average test scores for the school. But I think the public schooling here is pretty good. Apart from the group of kids that don't care about school and force the teachers to teach at their level.

Also, being my father's daughter, I force the teachers to make me -learn- it, not just remember it.

I guess I just don't understand what is so horrible about public school. It's probably because the public schooling where I live is actually pretty good, at least I don't see much wrong with it. It's not perfect, of course. There are always kids that bring down the rest of us as far as the average test scores for the school. But I think the public schooling here is pretty good. Apart from the group of kids that don't care about school and force the teachers to teach at their level.

Also, being my father's daughter, I force the teachers to make me -learn- it, not just remember it.

Most schools are like that: a lot of bright sparks and a lot more dimwits. Besides, I don't hold with averages, it's just a way of humiliating less bright pupils.

Most schools are like that: a lot of bright sparks and a lot more dimwits. Besides, I don't hold with averages, it's just a way of humiliating less bright pupils.

Our district does focus a little too much on test scores. But the "dimwits" as you put it, outnumber the brighter students and bring down the average, making the district introduce a bunch of stupid new curriculum.

Our district does focus a little too much on test scores. But the "dimwits" as you put it, outnumber the brighter students and bring down the average, making the district introduce a bunch of stupid new curriculum.

Ah, the old "dilute the curriculum" trick. Employed by every Authority to increase the average. The shame is that many people must suffer the lack of a challenge, whilst others will still be challenged (even in the most basic syllabus).

Ah, the old "dilute the curriculum" trick. Employed by every Authority to increase the average. The shame is that many people must suffer the lack of a challenge, whilst others will still be challenged (even in the most basic syllabus).

I have to admit though, the new curriculum is starting to work. We've had it the last couple years, and the average is increasing. Maybe a little more slowly than the district would like, but it is increasing. I hate the HAL program (High Ability Learners). They always bug me and try to get me involved in Quiz Bowl and all these academic things I don't want to be a part of. They push smarter kids to be involved in all this STUFF. I like some of it, but they want me to be part of every academic afterschool activity.

I have to admit though, the new curriculum is starting to work. We've had it the last couple years, and the average is increasing. Maybe a little more slowly than the district would like, but it is increasing. I hate the HAL program (High Ability Learners). They always bug me and try to get me involved in Quiz Bowl and all these academic things I don't want to be a part of. They push smarter kids to be involved in all this STUFF. I like some of it, but they want me to be part of every academic afterschool activity.

I don't know why, but I don't like the Quiz Bowl already. I just don't bother with a lot of afterschool activity unless it's something I'm into. Which only happens once a year.

From my experience with homeschooled friends and school-schooled friends.

I realise, homeschooled tend to be more academic. Anyway, usually those from homeschool tend to come from good and smart families, that had you throw them into school, they would do reasonably alright.

But I have a thing against homeschooling. I don't know how much fact is there in it, but to those friends I make that used to homeschool, they tend to be more socially inept. Or maybe less street smart.

The education here in my country, I would have to say is no better than UK or US, heck it's worse. I used to remember I learned next to nothing in school. School was a fun time, a time to get to know friends and girls. We used to skip classes and play football (soccer) or basketball. Play truant and run around KL. Talk rubbish in class, date girls, have marathons in the monsoon drains you name it.

Where I learned most was after classes, we had tuition classes. We used to pay Rm50 per month, and it was exactly like classes with all subjects but at least the teacher is more dedicated and it's at night, so most of us can't roam around at night as much.

Good academics count for something in life. It can help you get into a better university and such, and improve your chances of getting a good job.

But in the Real World. It's not true that the successful are all great academic achievers. Their smart, but there's more to being booksmart.

I guess if your school totally sucks, like there's hell alot of gangsterism, bullying, drugs, guns and such, might be good you stayed at home. I'm not one to be a critic really, but for me, I would never trade all my experiences I had for a better grade :)

Exactly. Every public school student must take standardized tests. All homeschooled students do not. Thus, only those whose parents are truly making an effort to prepare them for bigger and better things take the test - hence, the higher average scores.

I doubt that anyone would dispute that a well-qualified parent could direct their childrens' education and prepare that child for college and the rest of the world. However, all parents are not qualified to do so. How exactly do we ensure that those children whose parents keep them home actually are getting a proper education?

Dem, sorry, have to disagree with you on this one. Home Schoolers are required to do testing as well. (Not sure where you heard otherwise)... At least in Virginia (by state code)... We have the "SOL" (Standards of Learning).... And HomeSchoolers are required to take the SOL just as Public School Children...

I however am ardently opposed to "Standardized Tests", because they are misused pieces of crap (but that's a whole other issue)... And do more damage to the "learning" process.

OK, now for my opinion that will be considered way out there by many of you...

I don't think it should be compulsory for children to go to school either. All these kids that don't want to go to school and cause problems in the classrooms leaving discipline problems and socialization as the largest problems for a public school teacher (my wife taught in Cincinnati Public Schools for 5 years), should just be told to go home if they don't want to be there. That would drive the quality of our public school education way up. Then the parent who pleads for their child to be readmitted will care a whole lot more about their child's attitude and more involved in their education.

Those who want to get an education will not be punished because of those who do not want to get an education and learning to say "Would you like fries with that?" for the rest of their lives.

If we're going to have a public school education, that should be policy. Of course my other belief is that public schools are a joke, and anyone who really believes they can get a better quality education at public school then they can get at home just proves their ignorance about home schooling to me.

From my experience with homeschooled friends and school-schooled friends.

I realise, homeschooled tend to be more academic. Anyway, usually those from homeschool tend to come from good and smart families, that had you throw them into school, they would do reasonably alright.

But I have a thing against homeschooling. I don't know how much fact is there in it, but to those friends I make that used to homeschool, they tend to be more socially inept. Or maybe less street smart.

The education here in my country, I would have to say is no better than UK or US, heck it's worse. I used to remember I learned next to nothing in school. School was a fun time, a time to get to know friends and girls. We used to skip classes and play football (soccer) or basketball. Play truant and run around KL. Talk rubbish in class, date girls, have marathons in the monsoon drains you name it.

Where I learned most was after classes, we had tuition classes. We used to pay Rm50 per month, and it was exactly like classes with all subjects but at least the teacher is more dedicated and it's at night, so most of us can't roam around at night as much.

Good academics count for something in life. It can help you get into a better university and such, and improve your chances of getting a good job.

But in the Real World. It's not true that the successful are all great academic achievers. Their smart, but there's more to being booksmart.

I guess if your school totally sucks, like there's hell alot of gangsterism, bullying, drugs, guns and such, might be good you stayed at home. I'm not one to be a critic really, but for me, I would never trade all my experiences I had for a better grade :)
So, you had a good experience in public school, and you think that homeschoolers could not possibly have an experience as good? You think that homeschoolers are socially inept? These generalizations could get you in trouble, you know.

Dem, sorry, have to disagree with you on this one. Home Schoolers are required to do testing as well. (Not sure where you heard otherwise)... At least in Virginia (by state code)... We have the "SOL" (Standards of Learning).... And HomeSchoolers are required to take the SOL just as Public School Children...

I however am ardently opposed to "Standardized Tests", because they are misused pieces of crap (but that's a whole other issue)... And do more damage to the "learning" process.
Not all states require that. Mine doesn't. My parents do, though! :p

Home schooling gives children a chanch to learn the truth about history, how to think for themselves etc.
As far as being qualified to teach, take that 'teachers edition' away and 99% of teachers are totaly lost.
R.A.H. (clue:he was an author) had several Ph.D.s. He said it stands for "Piled higher and Deeper."
Truth and the ability to think for your self...

I was home schooled so I could work full time. Makes sense to me.

Possibly, the only appeal is that the child gets bullied at all the mainstream schools, or has been expelled from all of them. These scenarios are more common than they sound. I am against it. Only at a school can social skills be taught. I am also against it for the reasons you stated.

Ah, a lie. "Only at a school can social skills be taught." is a logical falacy if I ever saw one. Having been homeschooled for a good twelve years, I can tell you that homeschooled kids have as many opportunities for social development as does a school-kid. Not only have I met and made friends with numerous homschoolers, but loads of kids who go to traditional schools. Not only that, but I've had a lot of time to experience social life in the real world, not being confined within a school for eight or more hours a day.

Ah, a lie. "Only at a school can social skills be taught." is a logical falacy if I ever saw one. Having been homeschooled for a good twelve years, I can tell you that homeschooled kids have as many opportunities for social development as does a school-kid. Not only have I met and made friends with numerous homschoolers, but loads of kids who go to traditional schools. Not only that, but I've had a lot of time to experience social life in the real world, not being confined within a school for eight or more hours a day.

Touche.

I think I actually explained what I meant in an earlier post.

Ah, a lie. "Only at a school can social skills be taught." is a logical falacy if I ever saw one. Having been homeschooled for a good twelve years, I can tell you that homeschooled kids have as many opportunities for social development as does a school-kid. Not only have I met and made friends with numerous homschoolers, but loads of kids who go to traditional schools. Not only that, but I've had a lot of time to experience social life in the real world, not being confined within a school for eight or more hours a day.

That's all nicey-nice for you, but what about us homeschoolers who don't have those opportunities? What about us, the ones who have parents that refuse to let us go anywhere without them coming along? What about us, the ones who had to leave their school friends behind and rarely get to see them?

So, you had a good experience in public school, and you think that homeschoolers could not possibly have an experience as good? You think that homeschoolers are socially inept? These generalizations could get you in trouble, you know.

I didn't say socially inept. I say tend to be more socially inept.

My experience is based on the many friends I have in University, where many of them come from homeschool and schoolschool backgrounds.

Biased maybe? Perhaps. But I'm only giving my personal thoughts since everybody is talking about oh-how-wonderful homeschooling is.

Lighten up.

Ah, a lie. "Only at a school can social skills be taught." is a logical falacy if I ever saw one. Having been homeschooled for a good twelve years, I can tell you that homeschooled kids have as many opportunities for social development as does a school-kid. Not only have I met and made friends with numerous homschoolers, but loads of kids who go to traditional schools. Not only that, but I've had a lot of time to experience social life in the real world, not being confined within a school for eight or more hours a day.
An incorrect conclusion but not necessarily a logical fallacy

(wow and I managed to learn that from a *gasp* Public school!)

I disagree with what most people have said in this thread. This includes people on both sides of the issue. Everyone here seems to be generalizing the entire system based on their own experiences.

Just because you had good experiences in public school and feel your school district is wonderful doesn't mean that everyone's is. I went to a high school where the majority of the teachers began teaching because the work schedule was lined up with the school schedule of their children. They didn't care about whether or not any of their students recieved an education. There were a few teachers (mostly those who taught the honors classes) that actually cared about teaching anything. Unfortunately the students in the honors classes are not the ones who really need the dedicated teachers. The students who are struggling to learn the material need teachers who genuinely want to teach. The students who have no motivation to learn need teachers who care about them and want them to succeed.

I see the supporters of homeschooling stating that it is possible for everyone to do well in homeschooling and that it is obviously the superior choice. This is also not the case. Amazingly enough there are parents who are not dedicated to their child's education. They take absolutely no interest in whether the child even does the work. And the response to that would be that the child can teach his/herself. Not all kids have the motivation to do this. There are children out there who do not care to learn, and would sit around and watch television or play games all day. This does happen in homeschooling. I have seen it. Not all kids do well in a homeschooling environment. Also, not all children recieve the socialization that the supporters of homeschooling in this thread claim. I know a family that pulled their children from public school and began homeschooling, and the children have absolutely no social skills at all. They are completely withdrawn from society, and cannot carry on even the simplest of conversation with anyone other than their own family.

I myself hate high school. After my freshman year I refused to go back to my high school. I begged my mother to homeschool me, but she refused. I was furious at her as I returned to high school for three more years of misery. Now, I respect her decision, and I think she made the right one. Homeschooling was not the right decision for our family. Neither of my parents have a college education, and were not prepared to be teachers either emotionally or academically. I do not have the motivation to teach myself. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but simply make a point. I am a naturally intelligent person. In high school I never cracked a book. I didn't do homework. I didn't study for tests. I simply went to class and listened to the teacher. The only work I did was what I was able to finish in class, and projects that counted for large parts of my grade in the class. Despite this lack of effort, I did very well in school. I was in honors classes, and graduated just shy of the top ten percent of my class. Not knowing the abilities and efforts of the rest of my peers this doesn't mean anything to you, so let me put this in terms at least the American's will understand. I was invited to take the SAT in the seventh grade and scored near 1000 (I don't remember my exact score, but it was 970 or so) on it at that time. When I took it my junior year of high school I scored 1260. I did absolutely no preparation for the test. I simply went in with the education I recieved in a public school classroom (the same public school I spoke of in paragraph two with the teachers that didn't care how I did), and I did my best. I could not have done that well had my mother homeschooled my as I requested. I needed to sit in that classroom and hear what the teacher had to say, because without that I would have had nothing. Homeschooling is not the right decision for everyone.

Someone in this thread (I don't feel like looking back throught the eight pages of this thread to locate the quote) made the statement that one day we would be working for someone who was homeschooled. That is an awfully arrogant statement. I would like to see some sort of proof of this. I guarantee there are many people who could prove it incorrect. I'm still in college, but I work for a multi-billion dollar corporation at a multi-million dollar store, and no one I even work with, let alone my boss was homeschooled.

I will agree with the supporters of homeschooling that many of the eduators in our public school syster are not very good teachers. I myself am studying to be one of them. I graduate in a year, and I don't feel prepared to teach children. I believe that the methods of training future teachers is part of the reason for the number of poor teachers. We are given very little instruction on how to teach. Our education mainly revolves around the development of the children and the theories of Piaget and Vygotsky. I also sit in classes with other people studying to be educators, and intern with teachers in my area. I would not want my child to have most of these people for teachers. The education program at my college is one of the easiest degree programs in existance from what I've seen, and that really makes me sad. I see my classmates having difficulty passing the proficiency tests (which are basically a practice test for the certification test) we are forced to take, and I find this truely horrifying. These people cannot pass a test over the content they want to teach, and I am an elementary education major. This is why our education system leaves a lot to be desired. People are graduating high school and getting through college without the basic understanding of concepts taught in elementary school. These same people are then becoming teachers and continuing the cycle. A major reform of the education system is necessary, but this does not mean that homeschooling is the answer to all of our problems. If college graduates are not qualified to teach children, then how can we say that someone is qualified to teach a child simply because they gave birth to the child, or that a child is qualified to teach his/herself.

why are people actin like homeschool is a bad thing? People have been homeschooling for since there has been written language, public school is a recent development. About homeschool students not being able to socialize or comunicate with other people is a load of bull, I have been homeschooled my entire life and I can socialize just as well as anyone else. Granted that homeschool is not for everyone since there is a lack of parents that are willing to take the time and effort to teach the subject properly (but if the student had the will, he/she could teach themselves). Many great and smart men were taught at home like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln (who just read books and his parents didn't help very much sence they themselves were not educated). My sister is graduating this year and got a high enough score on the SAT to get into any college in Texas.

why are people actin like homeschool is a bad thing? People have been homeschooling for since there has been written language, public school is a recent development. About homeschool students not being able to socialize or comunicate with other people is a load of bull, I have been homeschooled my entire life and I can socialize just as well as anyone else. Granted that homeschool is not for everyone since there is a lack of parents that are willing to take the time and effort to teach the subject properly (but if the student had the will, he/she could teach themselves). Many great and smart men were taught at home like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln (who just read books and his parents didn't help very much sence they themselves were not educated). My sister is graduating this year and got a high enough score on the SAT to get into any college in Texas.
But most of us don’t think it is viable on the large scale … and you may have done alright but I have seen the opposite (as far as socialization) happen then your experience.

They test your educational competency to give you the equivalent of a GED but there is no quality control for emotional and social development

I am not saying public school is the greatest as is but it has a lot of potential if we pay more attention to it.

(I am in no way trying to put down your experiences but I don’t see a way to make sure everyone gets the rich social environ you had the luck of being included into to teach you the things that cant be taught in a classroom)

In the states, boys often cave to peer pressure that says it isn't ok to do well in school. Thus, gifted and honors classes generally have more females, while males stay away because it wouldn't be "cool". Many also do not really attempt to get good grades for the same reason. When I was in high school, I saw more than one group of guys proudly comparing how many classes they had failed - as if it was a badge of honor. This is an unfortunate stereotype that we should certainly do away with.


I don't try because I'm lazy. Not because it's uncool. I allready know I'm NOT cool, so it wouldn't hurt my reputation to get good grades, I just don't like putting that much effort into something I don't care about, and that holds no very useful real life applications (i.e. advanced Algebra).

However, my laziness doesn't reflect my mental abilities. I score rather high on standardized tests (because they are BLOODY EASY), which are a bad idea anyways, because, at least in MY school, all we do is learn what is needed for the tests and how to pass them. That's it. We get no real education beyond test taking.

I think that's one of the biggest reasons people homeschool.

Oh, btw, can anyone point out any useful real life applications for advanced algebra that DON'T involve being an accountant or siesmologist?

I don't try because I'm lazy. Not because it's uncool. I allready know I'm NOT cool, so it wouldn't hurt my reputation to get good grades, I just don't like putting that much effort into something I don't care about, and that holds no very useful real life applications (i.e. advanced Algebra).

However, my laziness doesn't reflect my mental abilities. I score rather high on standardized tests (because they are BLOODY EASY), which are a bad idea anyways, because, at least in MY school, all we do is learn what is needed for the tests and how to pass them. That's it. We get no real education beyond test taking.

I think that's one of the biggest reasons people homeschool.

Oh, btw, can anyone point out any useful real life applications for advanced algebra that DON'T involve being an accountant or siesmologist?
How about physics? Chemisty? All of the sciences need a grounding in advanced math (even biology, some of the population dynamics stuff makes a lot more sense if you know differential calculus)

I don't try because I'm lazy. Not because it's uncool. I allready know I'm NOT cool, so it wouldn't hurt my reputation to get good grades, I just don't like putting that much effort into something I don't care about, and that holds no very useful real life applications (i.e. advanced Algebra).

However, my laziness doesn't reflect my mental abilities. I score rather high on standardized tests (because they are BLOODY EASY), which are a bad idea anyways, because, at least in MY school, all we do is learn what is needed for the tests and how to pass them. That's it. We get no real education beyond test taking.

I think that's one of the biggest reasons people homeschool.

Oh, btw, can anyone point out any useful real life applications for advanced algebra that DON'T involve being an accountant or siesmologist?

Encryption, network security, computer design, engineering, statistics, computer programming, game design … I could go on for a long time

How about physics? Chemisty? All of the sciences need a grounding in advanced math (even biology, some of the population dynamics stuff makes a lot more sense if you know differential calculus)
Defiantly biostatistics is a massive field … and regression analysis is massive in biology along with any population stats field (and calc is big must for some of the tough stuff)

[snip]
I see the supporters of homeschooling stating that it is possible for everyone to do well in homeschooling and that it is obviously the superior choice.
[snip]

I don't recall saying that. In fact, I'm one of the homeschoolers who tends to say that homeschooling would NOT be the best choice for everyone, but it was most definitely the superior choice for our family.

But most of us don’t think it is viable on the large scale … and you may have done alright but I have seen the opposite (as far as socialization) happen then your experience.

They test your educational competency to give you the equivalent of a GED but there is no quality control for emotional and social development

I am not saying public school is the greatest as is but it has a lot of potential if we pay more attention to it.

(I am in no way trying to put down your experiences but I don’t see a way to make sure everyone gets the rich social environ you had the luck of being included into to teach you the things that cant be taught in a classroom)
So homeschooling doesn't always work in every case-public school doesn't either. In fact, no form of education would work in every case. However, if the parents of the child care about the child, I think homeschooling is the best choice.

I was homeschooled. It was pretty much was the best thing for a kid like me. But I'd like to be clear that it's certainly not for everyone. I was a big bully up until my parents pulled me out of private school (in louisianna public schools are usually ranked last in the union). So I was home schooled from second grade till highschool. But for me it was actually being taught by private tutors with a group of other homeschoolers and some other kids who needed help outside of school. So i learned plenty about social interactions and I learned enough in those years that i never had anything to study for in highschool and never got lower than a B

So homeschooling doesn't always work in every case-public school doesn't either. In fact, no form of education would work in every case. However, if the parents of the child care about the child, I think homeschooling is the best choice.
Now I think I know what you are going for here but it sounds like you are saying that any parent that cares for their child should home school them, so those that send their kids to public school don’t care for them?

What about caring parents who are not prepared to each their kid? They care for their kid buy may not have the ability. If they send their kid to public or private school does that mean they do not care for them

Now I think I know what you are going for here but it sounds like you are saying that any parent that cares for their child should home school them, so those that send their kids to public school don’t care for them?

What about caring parents who are not prepared to each their kid? They care for their kid buy may not have the ability. If they send their kid to public or private school does that mean they do not care for them
I have said it before, and I'll say it again: you do not have to be a good teacher to homeschool your child.

There are self-teaching materials, local community classes, small local homeschool groups, tutors, etc. Some people even choose a method of homeschooling known as "unschooling", which is based on the idea that everything a child needs to know can be learned from life experiences.

I don't recall saying that. In fact, I'm one of the homeschoolers who tends to say that homeschooling would NOT be the best choice for everyone, but it was most definitely the superior choice for our family.

The best choice in my family too Zotona.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again: you do not have to be a good teacher to homeschool your child.

There are self-teaching materials, local community classes, small local homeschool groups, tutors, etc. Some people even choose a method of homeschooling known as "unschooling", which is based on the idea that everything a child needs to know can be learned from life experiences.
I did not say learning ability there are plenty of situations that arise that could prohibit a home schooling situation.

I did not say learning ability there are plenty of situations that arise that could prohibit a home schooling situation.
I'm still waiting for an example.

I haven't read all of the threads but i don't think many of them were from kids who had actually been home schooled. So here's the view from the other side...

Most kids who are home schooled are only taught at home for part of their education. When the material becomes too hard for the parent to teach or the child wants to go to a public school etc the child goes into public school and sometimes a private school (don't get me started on how much i hate private school).

Elementary material is way easy to teach without any guidance. There are teachers books that tell you what to do. College education classes give you ideas for year after year teaching of a large class. A lot of it is just crowd control stuff that you obviously don't need if you're only teaching one kid. Kids who continue to home school through high school often go to college classes or groups of parents will join together and split classes between parents.

I don't deny the fact that parents who home school are often religious (many times overly so) but it dosn't hurt if their children eventually go to a public school.

Home schooled children are not as overly sheltered as many people think. Yes there are those who are but if you are considering homeschooling as a option it is definately possible to do so without your children becomeing antisocial freaks. I was involved in city wide sports and there was a home school group that did park days, field days, pe classes, skate nights, science fairs, etc. Not to mention all the kids in my neighborhood.

The biggest positive aspect to being home schooled is FREE TIME! I learned what i had to know one on one so my mom knew that i had learned it. We went over the things i was strugging with longer and the things i caught onto quickly we went quickly through. I didn't have to wait for 20 other ppl to figure out what was going on. School days lasted for no more than 3 hours and i learned everything better and i learned more over all. There was no repetition to what i learned. Because my school days were so short i had a lot of time to be a kid and play, use my imagination, i learned to like reading (not in a weird nerdy way), and my family got to travel a lot. I've been all over the U.S. We went camping a lot too. I'm also a lot closer to my parents (not in a creepy way). I was never a clingy kid and if you have a clingy kid put them into public school...they need it. I think because i was around my mom a lot i became more independent because i knew she was going to be there.

So there are my thoughts on homeschooling. Sorry it was long.

I thought the school is shit was just an excuse for when you failed?

Bullshit. I'm one of the best students there can be and I recognize the school is shit.

I'm still waiting for an example.
How about being a single parent?

How about being a single parent?
How would that affect one's ability to homeschool?

How about being a single parent?

I know a few homeschoolers that are single parent homes. They still work it out. Try again.

How would that affect one's ability to homeschool?
If I had to earn the whole household income I defiantly would not have the time to effectively teach my child

OK, now for my opinion that will be considered way out there by many of you...

I don't think it should be compulsory for children to go to school either. All these kids that don't want to go to school and cause problems in the classrooms leaving discipline problems and socialization as the largest problems for a public school teacher (my wife taught in Cincinnati Public Schools for 5 years), should just be told to go home if they don't want to be there. That would drive the quality of our public school education way up. Then the parent who pleads for their child to be readmitted will care a whole lot more about their child's attitude and more involved in their education.

Those who want to get an education will not be punished because of those who do not want to get an education and learning to say "Would you like fries with that?" for the rest of their lives.

If we're going to have a public school education, that should be policy. Of course my other belief is that public schools are a joke, and anyone who really believes they can get a better quality education at public school then they can get at home just proves their ignorance about home schooling to me.

Then every child, that does not want go to school (applies to quite a lot of children, at least at certain ages) and is not forced to by his/her parents ( is true for some parents), wont even be able to read and write. Only very few of those will find jobs, because the more rationalized our economy becomes the more educated workers we need.
What will they do? Either they will get money from the state or they wont (because its their own fault they dont have a proper education (that it were their parents, who did not take care of them does not matter)) and will do what then? Most likely to be FORCED to become criminals.

If I had to earn the whole household income I defiantly would not have the time to effectively teach my child

I think you are underestimating the power of self-teaching with a touch of parental motivation.

I know a few homeschoolers that are single parent homes. They still work it out. Try again.

Some can some cant depending on when they can swing the shifts … sometimes you got to take work when it comes your way (because some can does that mean all single parents have the same job and time commitments?)

I think you are underestimating the power of self-teaching with a touch of parental motivation.
Some take well to that and some don’t … not all parents are created equal and not all kids are either. Their ability does not always reflect their love of their children

If I was stuck in all day with one of my parents I'd go insane

Right. Which is why you don't. Before "public" schools existed kids would just wander out the door often hearing "be back by dark." Doesn't that sound like the awesomest thing imaginable?

At the same time, I'm trying to figure out what would make a parent academically qualified to teach the children.

Please keep in mind that private tutorage in which a professional is brought in to teach the children instead of the parents is also considered "home schooling". :)

Some take well to that and some don’t … not all parents are created equal and not all kids are either. Their ability does not always reflect their love of their children
I think that if the parent makes an effort it is possible for them to succesfully homeschool their child(ren) regardless of economic/scheduling concerns. Of course, they need to recognize their child(ren)'s individual needs. If they feel they must, they can even adjust their child(ren)'s to whatever hours they feel they will have the time to do it if they want to be home the whole school day.


This is coming from a homeschooler in a family in which both parents work, the mother part time, and the father full time. My brother and I understand the consequences if we don't get our work done, so we do. If we don't understand something, we help each other. It has worked tremendously for us.

Where I live (Washington state, US) you need to have a college degree in order to homeschool, or you can take a certification course and become licensed to homeschool. Also, in Washington, we have this idiotic (in execution, the theory was decent) standard test called the WASL (Washington Assessment of Student Learning) that a passing grade is mandatory for graduation from high school. There was a big brouhaha about it when it became mandatory, and a lot of parents started pulling their kids out of school because the kids said all they were being given to study was what would make them pass the WASL. Schools are being pressured to make sure students pass it, so that in turn limits what the teachers can do.
Also, in my area there are several different groups of people homeschooling, not just fundamental Christians. Our local YMCA also offers sports teams and Physical Education classes for homeschoolers.
I think the 'socialization' aspect is not a good enough reason by itself to send a child to school. There are definitely pros and cons to schools. Bullying and violence, drug exposure, elitism, and rampant, unchecked rumor mongering are some of the cons. However, there are things that I won't be able to teach my child if I choose to homeschool that they could learn at school. For example, learning a language (I've been bilingual all my life since my mother is Spanish, but I wouldn't feel confident teaching it.) or playing a musical instrument.
I will definitely be looking into all my options when it comes to my son. He is a very active toddler who literally cannot sit still for more than 20 minutes. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with him that his thrice weekly playgroup doesn't solve, but I have a feeling he will get slapped with the ADD or ADHD label as soon as they think it's safe to pump him full of drugs.

Please keep in mind that private tutorage in which a professional is brought in to teach the children instead of the parents is also considered "home schooling". :)

Who's got the money to pay that? Ok, maybe my parents would, but I guess many would not.
Of course it would be perfect if everyone could have his private tutor, but unfortunately the state (any state) does not have enough money.

I think that if the parent makes an effort it is possible for them to succesfully homeschool their child(ren) regardless of economic/scheduling concerns. Of course, they need to recognize their child(ren)'s individual needs. If they feel they must, they can even adjust their child(ren)'s to whatever hours they feel they will have the time to do it if they want to be home the whole school day.


This is coming from a homeschooler in a family in which both parents work, the mother part time, and the father full time. My brother and I understand the consequences if we don't get our work done, so we do. If we don't understand something, we help each other. It has worked tremendously for us.
And I am not trying to degrade your parent’s work they obviously cared for you and were able to make the effort to make sure you were properly taught. But I don’t find reasonable cause on implying that all parents, that make a rational decision based on their situation and or abilities to send their kids to either a public or private school, don’t love their children enough

Who's got the money to pay that? Ok, maybe my parents would, but I guess many would not.
Of course it would be perfect if everyone could have his private tutor, but unfortunately the state (any state) does not have enough money.
Green=not politically correct.

I don't think that was actually the point. It's part of a larger point, which is, just as there isn't any one form of public education, there isn't any one form of homeschooling. I personally believe there's a form of homeschooling which would work for almost any given family.

I find it amusing that people have the tendency to decide something is wrong despite their ignorance of the topic and their complete lack of experience in what they claim to be wrong. I then find it further amusing when their debate/argument consists soley of "well, I still think it's wrong." and various borrowed soundbite opinions of whatever media/influences they allow to run their brain.

/soapbox

And yes, I do find it amusing as opposed to insulting or frustrating... ;)

And I am not trying to degrade your parent’s work they obviously cared for you and were able to make the effort to make sure you were properly taught. But I don’t find reasonable cause on implying that all parents, that make a rational decision based on their situation and or abilities to send their kids to either a public or private school, don’t love their children enough
I didn't say that. What I said was,

So homeschooling doesn't always work in every case-public school doesn't either. In fact, no form of education would work in every case. However, if the parents of the child care about the child, I think homeschooling is the best choice.

I'm not saying that parents who send their children to public/private school don't love their children. I'm saying that anyone who truly cares for their child would probably find that they like homeschooling more than public schooling.

Green=not politically correct.
:sniper: ;)
Revenge because the last 5 restaurants/bars, where I applied for a job said "We want a woman to make this job."
;)

If everyone homeschooled, America would be a very stupid place.

Oh? Then I guess it was stupidity that brought us from a tiny little upstart to the worlds greatest empire of our time.

Some can some cant depending on when they can swing the shifts … sometimes you got to take work when it comes your way (because some can does that mean all single parents have the same job and time commitments?)

You can teach at home at almost anytime of the day. There is no set schedule for homeschoolers.

Green=not politically correct.

I don't think that was actually the point. It's part of a larger point, which is, just as there isn't any one form of public education, there isn't any one form of homeschooling. I personally believe there's a form of homeschooling which would work for almost any given family.

Once upon a time, Television was touted as an educational tool that would allow people to learn things right in their homes. (this was, in fact, one of the major selling points when Teevee came out.) The Internet was touted the same way when it first went public.

Neither of these options turned out to be the end-result.

I seem to recall, though, a newspiece on an experimental being done in Alaska, one teacher at location "A" teaching-by-remote-link to pupils attending via internet from their homes.

I also seem to recall that the Australians had a system like that for a while, using Wireless.

Considering that so many Urban schools resemble Demilitarized Zones, and given the social trends in our Public Schools (and their administrations) this looks to me like a viable option-at least, on the Academic end-or would, if there weren't the danger of such a system turning into a commercial for one product or another.

I don't think that was actually the point. It's part of a larger point, which is, just as there isn't any one form of public education, there isn't any one form of homeschooling. I personally believe there's a form of homeschooling which would work for almost any given family.

Thank you. You captured my point quite well.

My main problem with homeschooling:
I think humans have a right to learn things without fundamentalistc influence. How can you ensure parents don't just teach fundamentalist ideas to their children?
Of course parents also can teach fundamentalist ideas to their children, if they are not homeschooled. But if children visit a public school, there at least is a chance of preventing the child from believing these ideas.
And it has been said before that some parents homeschool their kids as they want to make sure it has got the "right" ideology.

My main problem with homeschooling:
I think humans have a right to learn things without fundamentalistc influence. How can you ensure parents don't just teach fundamentalist ideas to their children?
Of course parents also can teach fundamentalist ideas to their children, if they are not homeschooled. But if children visit a public school, there at least is a chance of preventing the child from believing these ideas.
And it has been said before that some parents homeschool their kids as they want to make sure it has got the "right" ideology.
You don't. Personally, I think that if one's religion is important from them, it makes sense that they, as a parent, encourage their child to follow the same religion. It may not be right by my own view, but that's irrelevant. It is their right.

There are many situations where a child is pulled out of public school because of religious intolerance.

Thank you. You captured my point quite well.
No problem! :D

As mentioned before, Homeschooling can be both good and bad. Homeschooling works as long as the parent's are good teachers. I only say this because my girlfriend was homeschooled by her obsessively christian parents who replaced most of her real classes regarding sciences and some math with biblical studies.

Now she resents christianity, is terribly behind in her education and has moved away from her mom. She's living with her dad but stays with me most of the time. She was hoping to get a G.E.D. but understands that just attending a real High School would be a better idea - however, her only experiences with a normal school was during a year in middle school getting teased by kids (we all remember how mean kids could be). In truth, she's irrationally afraid of attending high school because of both past experiences and fear of that unknown 'system' her parent instilled a fear into since her youth; she's smart but currently under-educated; and she's having trouble simply finishing the first leg of her education.

I'm trying to help her out so she can have a good, comfortable future, but this is the situation that simply makes me think that the potential hurt that can come from Homeschool may outweight the good. Better to have everyone in a real school than to be taught at parents. At home, there is less exposure to a social setting that will prepare one to be social in the future. Plus; we may all love our parents but we know not all our parents can make the best decisions for our future (read. replace secular classes with xtian classes)

And for each person like her, how many dozens that were equally or more scared by government school?

You don't. Personally, I think that if one's religion is important from them, it makes sense that they, as a parent, encourage their child to follow the same religion. It may not be right by my own view, but that's irrelevant. It is their right.


Encouraging one's child to follow one's own religion is quite natural and I would even say you cannot avoid this, but I was rather thinking about some parents teaching things like "You have to believe in God or you will go to hell." Not "encouraging", but heavily influencing and doing so as if one's own religion is the only right one in front of one's child is a problem.

Encouraging one's child to follow one's own religion is quite natural and I would even say you cannot avoid this, but I was rather thinking about some parents teaching things like "You have to believe in God or you will go to hell." Not "encouraging", but heavily influencing and doing so as if one's own religion is the only right one in front of one's child is a problem.
This happens anyway; I've seen it in hundreds of public schoolers I have met. Wouldn't you rather these people keep their children out of the public education system so nobody has to hear the religious intolerance these children have been taught to spew at everyone around them?

OK, now for my opinion that will be considered way out there by many of you...

I don't think it should be compulsory for children to go to school either. All these kids that don't want to go to school and cause problems in the classrooms leaving discipline problems and socialization as the largest problems for a public school teacher (my wife taught in Cincinnati Public Schools for 5 years), should just be told to go home if they don't want to be there. That would drive the quality of our public school education way up. Then the parent who pleads for their child to be readmitted will care a whole lot more about their child's attitude and more involved in their education.

Those who want to get an education will not be punished because of those who do not want to get an education and learning to say "Would you like fries with that?" for the rest of their lives.

If we're going to have a public school education, that should be policy. Of course my other belief is that public schools are a joke, and anyone who really believes they can get a better quality education at public school then they can get at home just proves their ignorance about home schooling to me.

Right on. Did you invent that opinion yourself or read it somewhere and agree? If people want to hear arguments for this awesome dude's opinion read "a different kind of teacher" and "Underground history of American education" (so sorry, I don't know how to do underline and don't care enough to figure out) by john Taylor Gato.

My general, shortened opinion on homeschooling:

Homeschooling is alright for some people. Depending on your situation, public or homeschooling may be better for you. I think that it might effect the way you act when around other people, and might cause you to be less social. However, I've never met a homeschooled kid, so I wouldn't really know anything about that. Homeschooling is probably good for people that aren't challenged enough, get bullied, are really stressed out at their school, or don't get along with the teachers, etc. It's not right for everyone, but some students would probably succeed more easily at home than at a public or private school.

Oh? Then I guess it was stupidity that brought us from a tiny little upstart to the worlds greatest empire of our time.
:rolleyes:


Not everyone is homeschooled, you know...

I'm against homeschooling for the same reason my mother is against it:
Many parents are not qualified to teach their children the things they'd otherwise learn in school. I think that my English teacher knows more about teaching english than most parents, that my physics teacher knows more about teaching physics(or even about physics in general) than most parents, that my orchestra teacher is better at conducting an orchestra than most parents(of course, you can't exactly BE in orchestra when homeschooled unless a bunch of parents pooled their kids together, seeing as you need at least one person for each section that's found in most orchestra music, meaning a first and second violin, a viola, a cello, and a base), that my choir teacher is better at having kids sing well than most parents, that my health teacher knows more about health and can teach it better than most parents...I think you get the point.
However, if they bring in a private tutor it's a whole different story. Of course, I doubt that many could afford it...


I can understand homeschooling in areas with bad schools, but wouldn't it be more effective to go about fixing the school's problems rather than giving kids a substandard education? After all, if bad public schools are the reason that people homeschool their children, it should be easy enough to fix that if people get their priorities straight and actually WORK TO CHANGE THE PROBLEM(bad schools) rather than treat the symptom(kids with poor educations). Of course, time has shown that people are reluctant to do that...*sigh*



Now then, I live in an area with well-funded schools full of kids who, for the most part, don't cause TOO much trouble, classes for the students who are smarter in specific subjects than their peers(at least in high school; the elementary and middle schoolers have to do with the GT program and skipping a grade in whatever class they're ahead in) and teachers who actually want to(and know how to) teach their subjects and have the kids learn(and have the kids learn things for purposes other than tests); hence, my views of public schools a better than most people's, but I know full well how bad many other public schools are(which disappoints me sicne I know how good a public school can be). I also don't know much about the actual process of homeschooling(would someone mind posting how it works?). As such, I suppose you should take my opinion with a grain of salt. Of course, the same could be said for most people in this thread...at least I'm admitting it :p

:rolleyes:


Not everyone is homeschooled, you know...

Um, how do I put this gently? Government schooling did not exist at that time.

An incorrect conclusion but not necessarily a logical fallacy

(wow and I managed to learn that from a *gasp* Public school!)

I was under the impression that is a falacy. And I wasn't meaning do demean schools at all, not even public. I have a very knoweldgable friend who was schooled publically for most of K-12. I think a lot of it really has to do with how much the student actually cares. You must've payed attention!

And Potaria, I now relaize that I was generalizing based on my local homeschooling community. Most of the parents are quite liberal, with some aging hippies and even a few former punk-rockers. I certainly sympathize with your plight, though. I guess you'll either have to disoby your parents, construct a convincing arguement or just wait. I really don't know what to say.

(Also, I am hopelessly behind on this thread and have to intention to read it all, so I will walk away instead of invariably repeating someone else.)

Um, how do I put this gently? Government schooling did not exist at that time.
Word to the wise, being a pretentious twit gets you nowhere. Private schooling isn't home schooling.


Say nothing of this beast called "college", which is most definitely not "home".



Oh, ever hear of the Land Ordinance of 1785?

I'll quote a nice section for you:

" There shall be reserved for the United States out of every township the four lots, being numbered 8,11,26,29, and out of every fractional part of a township, so many lots of the same numbers as shall be found thereon, for future sale. There shall be reserved the lot No. 16, of every township, for the maintenance of public schools within the said township, also one-third part of all gold, silver, lead and copper mines, to be sold, or otherwise disposed of as Congress shall hereafter direct...."

Wow, lookie there, public schools. Last time I checked, 1785 was back when we were a backwater little nation that was considered by many to be a hazard post.

You can teach at home at almost anytime of the day. There is no set schedule for homeschoolers.
Ok well with the jobs I am working now and will be for the next 10 + years is 8 am to 12 am (when I don’t work my night job which for this example I say I will drop)
For me to do the type of work that I am best at and best able to provide financial stability for my kids they would need to be “going” to school 12 am to 8 where I go back to work

There is proven studies that kids work better (overall) at certain parts of the day … somehow doubt it is from midnight to 8 am for most kids (I would be fine but I hardly take myself as an example for everyone)

It would be negligent of me to try to do that to my kids not to mention making the assumption that I would be a better general studies teacher then I could get at lets say a good private school.
I may teach 3 collage courses but they are not anything that could be considered “general studies” but I am out in the field enough to see what a good teacher can do for their students in certain areas that I would never be able to do for my kids

I would also not deprive them of the networking that is available by being with other adults and kids … a good computer teacher got me started on my way to what I love who is to say a good music or English or shop or art teacher wont do the same.

(I may seem out of place being a collage prof supporting the school system but so be it)

I was under the impression that is a falacy. And I wasn't meaning do demean schools at all, not even public. I have a very knoweldgable friend who was schooled publically for most of K-12. I think a lot of it really has to do with how much the student actually cares. You must've payed attention!

And Potaria, I now relaize that I was generalizing based on my local homeschooling community. Most of the parents are quite liberal, with some aging hippies and even a few former punk-rockers. I certainly sympathize with your plight, though. I guess you'll either have to disoby your parents, construct a convincing arguement or just wait. I really don't know what to say.

(Also, I am hopelessly behind on this thread and have to intention to read it all, so I will walk away instead of invariably repeating someone else.)
Only if all the premises don’t match up … if there is ambiguity then not
You are arguing the You are arguing incomplete study and listing of the premises while this may lead to a false conclusion it is not necessary a flaw with the logic rather the data being used
:) but its cool its been a few years myself sense philosophy I could be completely off my rocker

>At the same time, I'm trying to figure out what would make a parent academically qualified to teach the children. What percentage of the population in the U.S. has a masters degree - and how many of those hold degrees in maths and science? I'm assuming it's not a very high number. I mean, given that there is no lack of bad parenting in this country, how can we expect a homeschool based society to be any better off?

Well, usually it isnt the parent but a tutor who teaches right?

My main problem with homeschooling:
I think humans have a right to learn things without fundamentalistc influence. How can you ensure parents don't just teach fundamentalist ideas to their children?
Of course parents also can teach fundamentalist ideas to their children, if they are not homeschooled. But if children visit a public school, there at least is a chance of preventing the child from believing these ideas.
And it has been said before that some parents homeschool their kids as they want to make sure it has got the "right" ideology.

If this is indeed your main problem than I can cure your ill. :D

I was raised Orthodox Presbyterian, very devout and later became even more devout as a fundamentalist nondenominationalist evangelical. Now I am a hedonistic esoterical agnostic with aethistic tendencies. Oh, I was also raised violently homophobic (more from the public schools and my church than from my parents) and now I am an open bisexual and quite proud and happy with it.

The point? How you raise your children don't mean shit for what they'll end up as, it only delays the process some, eventually people discover who they are and who they are going to be and will do that regardless of how much they were brainwashed earlier in life or how successfully.

And just so you know, I know a very large number of people, more offline than online and I know far more people who are different from their upbringing than those who are captive to it or actually agree with it, and this goes all the different directions, not just the directions my life took.

I didn't say that. What I said was,



I'm not saying that parents who send their children to public/private school don't love their children. I'm saying that anyone who truly cares for their child would probably find that they like homeschooling more than public schooling.
And what I am saying is some parents care for their children enough to realize that either they don’t have the ability to teach the way the child needs or fulfill any special needs the kid may have. So they find a place where their children may flower.

I love my parents to death but I defiantly am thankful that I was allowed to go to school my path in this life would have been very different without it. For better or worse it opened up doors for me … but I had to be strong enough to learn and choose

(this is hard to do without sounding like I think home school parents are depriving their children of something … that’s not it there is a lot of knowledge that they can impart on their kids but claming all those that care for their kids will make the same decision your parents did somehow does not strike my right)

>At the same time, I'm trying to figure out what would make a parent academically qualified to teach the children. What percentage of the population in the U.S. has a masters degree - and how many of those hold degrees in maths and science? I'm assuming it's not a very high number. I mean, given that there is no lack of bad parenting in this country, how can we expect a homeschool based society to be any better off?

Well, usually it isnt the parent but a tutor who teaches right?
It does not require a masters degree last time I checked to teach through the high school level

So what percentage of teachers have a masters or better?

Nor does a masters mean that a person can teach … I got two masters on in Computer Information Security and another in Network Modeling and Simulation but it does not mean I am qualified to teach an English class

It does not require a masters degree last time I checked to teach through the high school level

So what percentage of teachers have a masters or better?
100% at my school. We have quite a large number of doctors (our entire science department has doctorates and half of the technology department).


Public school ;).

I'm against homeschooling for the same reason my mother is against it:

Wow, maybe one day you will be able to formulate your own (and functional one at that) opinion.


Many parents are not qualified to teach their children the things they'd otherwise learn in school.

And this has to do with....? Alot of "Homeschooled" kids are taught, not by their parents. You and your mother seem to be rather uninformed by the total makeup of what constitutes "homeschooling".


I think that my English teacher knows more about teaching english than most parents, that my physics teacher knows more about teaching physics(or even about physics in general) than most parents, that my orchestra teacher is better at conducting an orchestra than most parents(of course, you can't exactly BE in orchestra when homeschooled unless a bunch of parents pooled their kids together, seeing as you need at least one person for each section that's found in most orchestra music, meaning a first and second violin, a viola, a cello, and a base), that my choir teacher is better at having kids sing well than most parents, that my health teacher knows more about health and can teach it better than most parents...I think you get the point.
However, if they bring in a private tutor it's a whole different story. Of course, I doubt that many could afford it...

Now, you've established the fact that you (and your mother) known absolutely NOTHING about homeschooling. Most "homeschool-ers" group resources... Which includes moving them around, class style structures, heck, even sports programs between a community of home-schoolers.... Musical lessons are done, sometimes grouped, sometimes sigularly.


I can understand homeschooling in areas with bad schools, but wouldn't it be more effective to go about fixing the school's problems rather than giving kids a substandard education?

KLAXON: Your assumption is that its substandard. If it actually were, why do alot of these "homeschoolers" score better than average publicschool students on aptitude tests?

Second assumption is that these parents COULD fix the local school in the first place. Most of the time they pull out because there is not enough political force to make the changes necessary...


After all, if bad public schools are the reason that people homeschool their children, it should be easy enough to fix that if people get their priorities straight and actually WORK TO CHANGE THE PROBLEM(bad schools) rather than treat the symptom(kids with poor educations). Of course, time has shown that people are reluctant to do that...*sigh*

You think the schools are bad because the ones trying to educate their children are the problem? No, its the other couple hundred thousand parents trying to mandate public education, without wanting to ensure good quality education that create the problem in the first place... Generally "Home-schoolers" are the ones so sick, they have given up.... Both you and your mom, if you want to look at the problem, need to point the finger at yourselves... Not the home-schoolers.... They are the ones that actually care.


Now then, I live in an area with well-funded schools full of kids who, for the most part, don't cause TOO much trouble, classes for the students who are smarter in specific subjects than their peers(at least in high school; the elementary and middle schoolers have to do with the GT program and skipping a grade in whatever class they're ahead in) and teachers who actually want to(and know how to) teach their subjects and have the kids learn(and have the kids learn things for purposes other than tests); hence, my views of public schools a better than most people's, but I know full well how bad many other public schools are(which disappoints me sicne I know how good a public school can be). I also don't know much about the actual process of homeschooling(would someone mind posting how it works?). As such, I suppose you should take my opinion with a grain of salt. Of course, the same could be said for most people in this thread...at least I'm admitting it


Which is good you admit your ignorance.

Home schooling requirements very by area. Typically, they can be required or recommended a standardized program of testing. Generally they operate within oversight of the state educational offices. Typically they "group" to form a "community" where home-schooling parents share resources (and sometimes students)... And most have access to resources, team sports and other activities available to most public-school children (most of the time their parents are actually former or present Public or private school teachers).

100% at my school. We have quite a large number of doctors (our entire science department has doctorates and half of the technology department).


Public school ;).
Hmmm maybe I am wrong … Im going for my doctorate in Computer information security I think

I teach two classes here but I am only adjunct faculty until I get my Doctorate

I'm against homeschooling for the same reason my mother is against it:
Many parents are not qualified to teach their children the things they'd otherwise learn in school. <clippage> However, if they bring in a private tutor it's a whole different story. Of course, I doubt that many could afford it...

Then I believe you should be more honest with yourself. You are not against homeschooling at all. What you are against is unmonitored homeschooling that leads to inadequate educations. You are in fact of the same exact opinion as I am though I do not believe you realize it yet. And now I will be so rash and arrogant as to tell you your own opinion. ;) :D

Homeschooling should be allowed but regulated as all public education is regulated. Teachers whether they be private or public or homeschool system should all be required to test and be accredited to having teaching aptitude for the level they wish to teach, in whatever sector they wish to apply it. As a nod to parents who wish to homeschool their own children, degrees should not be necessary (simple demand in the private and public schools will insure that degrees remain needed if not mandated in those sectors), but all teachers of any sector must pass the aptitude tests for teaching, period. Levels could be divided for the K-3,4-6,7-8,9-12 so that it is possible for parents to homeschool for part of their child's education if not all, dependent on their ability to successfully prove their aptitude for teaching that level.

As is already in place, a child who has been homeschooled and wishes to transfer either into the public or private school system will need to test to prove aptitude in their claimed grade level, and a child who is homeschooled through 12th grade will need to prove their aptitude of education with the GED.

So how did I do? ;)

It does not require a masters degree last time I checked to teach through the high school level

So what percentage of teachers have a masters or better?

Nor does a masters mean that a person can teach … I got two masters on in Computer Information Security and another in Network Modeling and Simulation but it does not mean I am qualified to teach an English class
To answer yor question, it would depend upn which state you happen to live in. For my own, all teachers must have a BA or BS and have a number of education courses, theory, hours in a classroom under working teachers and so on.

Also, in my state, all teachers must continue to take college course work throughout their teaching lives so many end up with a MA/MS before they retire (helps get your pay scale up too from piss poor to just poor). Depends on which state of course, but a good chunk of techers do hold advanced degrees.

You are correct that a master degree does not a teacher make, but normally these degrees are within the field of Education with course work in the area your are qualified to teach.

Of course I also highly recomend college faculty to take education courses because they do not have a clue on how to teach.

In case you're wondering, yes, I AM a teacher and do hold a MS so I do know what I'm talking about.

To answer yor question, it would depend upn which state you happen to live in. For my own, all teachers must have a BA or BS and have a number of education courses, theory, hours in a classroom under working teachers and so on.

Also, in my state, all teachers must continue to take college course work throughout their teaching lives so many end up with a MA/MS before they retire (helps get your pay scale up too from piss poor to just poor). Depends on which state of course, but a good chunk of techers do hold advanced degrees.

You are correct that a master degree does not a teacher make, but normally these degrees are within the field of Education with course work in the area your are qualified to teach.

Of course I also highly recomend college faculty to take education courses because they do not have a clue on how to teach.

In case you're wondering, yes, I AM a teacher and do hold a MS so I do know what I'm talking about.


Ok that’s what I though … Being a collage prof you only need to have expertise in the field (and usually a masters or better to be even considered) but I got grandfathered in because I am also the network design and security coordinator there so did not really apply for the job per se



In the computer field we tend to draw those with a focus only in what they are teaching … it is touch and go I mean some very smart people that cant teach sometimes happen but the field I am teaching in (networking) has very few people who both have a post grad degree in it along with an education focus
(I also hold 2 MS's myself)

"But most of us don’t think it is viable on the large scale … and you may have done alright but I have seen the opposite (as far as socialization) happen then your experience.

They test your educational competency to give you the equivalent of a GED but there is no quality control for emotional and social development

I am not saying public school is the greatest as is but it has a lot of potential if we pay more attention to it.

(I am in no way trying to put down your experiences but I don’t see a way to make sure everyone gets the rich social environ you had the luck of being included into to teach you the things that cant be taught in a classroom)"


And I have seen plenty of socialization problems in the public schools, I don't think this is really all that valid of a point and in today's culture, those who talk about socialization being a problem with homeschooling just do not know what they are talking about. To be honest, alot of what some may call good socialization in public school could hardly be that good at all. Go to your local police station and find out how many students at your local school are estimated to have done drugs by the time they graduate from high school. I'm sure home schooled kids run into problems also, but I'm also sure that it is nothing like the level it is in public schools.

I've dealt w/ quite a few homeschooled individuals. My wife is one. As for education, I've seen the gambit run from nearly illiterate to near Rhodes scholar. It all depends on the parents. My wife has strong reading skills but poor math and nearly nonexistant science.

Socially, the ones I've seen that have been exclusively homeschooled have poor social skills in general and have difficulty in situations outside of their circle. The ones that I have seen the strongest are those who started homeschooling later or partially for increased educational capabilities.

I was public schooled and have nearly completed my Masters in History and can deal w/ most social situations comfortably. I personally advocate public school (at least in the beginning) w/ heavy parental involvement in the childs learning both at school and at home.

After reading this thread, I’m really temped to yell at those who condemn public schooling and teachers as universally corrupt and incompetent. I’m sure those of you who had bad experiences in the public school system did have bad experiences, and did meet some bad teachers. I am also sure that you did work hard in the home system as well and have earned whatever you ended up with. But not ALL public schooling is like that.

Try not to pat yourself too hard on your back though, you’ll dislocate your shoulder.

As a teacher, I have a few reservations about home school however. These include lack of access to specialized equipment in the sciences (for the proper study of Chemistry, Biology, Geology and the like), lack of access to clubs, sports, music and other activities that teach far more in teamwork and group discipline which cannot be learned on your own (I will address this a little bit more before you send me flames), lack of social opportunities (again, please read through), and the qualification of the home school materials/teachers.

As a former admissions councilor for a university, I also have reservations on home school as some parents did not think far enough ahead and check with local or other universities and see what their policies on this were (My own university welcomed home schooled students, but only if their course work was certified by one of two national boards or recognized by their state or local board of education). I have had to tell some home schooled students that they could not enroll due to lack of credentials and that their only path was to take the GED test, go to community college, then transfer. Also, lack of a public school diploma can also mean loss of scholarship opportunities.

Having said all that however, there are many children who do better at a home school environment. Lack of equipment can be addressed by parents groups (however, some equipment (like certain chemicals) can ONLY be given to schools by law and not sold to the public and some are very expensive). Clubs, team sports, and music groups can also be found within the community, if the community has them. I have also heard of parents groups for home schooled children forming and setting up social opportunities as well, such as dances, to make up for the loss. And of course if parents are educated themselves and know what to chose for materials, my last concerns are also addressed. So there are ways to overcome most of the problems of home school isolation.

So both sides end up rather equal in many regards, it seems to depend a great deal on the student, their situation, their family, and so on (and if you tell me that all students can self study I will be laughing my head off). I do have concerns about home school children missing out on opposing view points however as parents tend to pick up materials that agree with their own worldview and parents groups also tend to exclude different cultures/worldviews so a home schooled child will miss out on those important lessons as well.

The point I am trying to make in all this rambling is that both systems are rather equal. Public schools serve many children quite well and are better for these children than home schools. Home schools are better for other children who cannot, or will not, function in the public school environment. To say one is ‘better’ than the other is wrong and rather silly. I have seen both great and terrible examples of public and home students AND teachers to say one if better than the other.

But one lesson I do hope you home schooled student do pick up though is that in life, just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean you can suddenly declare that you won’t do it and will do something your own way. Bosses do tend to dislike that a lot. ;)

I'm just wondering why there is such an appeal amongst certain circles for homeschooling. I understand some of the reasons given - better to not have the children indoctrinated by an appendage of the state, and so on. Very legitimate claim, I suppose.

At the same time, I'm trying to figure out what would make a parent academically qualified to teach the children. What percentage of the population in the U.S. has a masters degree - and how many of those hold degrees in maths and science? I'm assuming it's not a very high number. I mean, given that there is no lack of bad parenting in this country, how can we expect a homeschool based society to be any better off?

Anyway, try to convert this sceptic to the pro-homeschooling club.

K, im not going to try to convert you into believing all homeschool is right (mainly cause i don't think it is) but it's not all bad...

I was homeschooled for 2 years cause i was absolutely completely bored to death at school and they wouldn't move me up a grade. I am so glad i was homeschooled cause it gave me a chance to learn things i previously wouldn't have. Im an Aussie and my mum did have some science degree or other... not that you need it to teach years 2 and 3....

And although i can agree that there's a lot of bad parenting... are the teachers any better?

Anyway that's just me

Ok that’s what I though … Being a collage prof you only need to have expertise in the field (and usually a masters or better to be even considered) but I got grandfathered in because I am also the network design and security coordinator there so did not really apply for the job per se



In the computer field we tend to draw those with a focus only in what they are teaching … it is touch and go I mean some very smart people that cant teach sometimes happen but the field I am teaching in (networking) has very few people who both have a post grad degree in it along with an education focus
(I also hold 2 MS's myself)
*Nodds* College is a compleatly different beastie from public schools. I too have had a number of professors who knew their stuff but couldn't teach if their life depended upon it. This is starting to change as more and more colleges get yelled at by students. My own university was, when I left, starting to arange semminars by the College of Education faculty on basic educational theory (such as direct lecture is not the best way to teach all things).

Public school teachers though usually end up with what ammounts to a double major, one in education and one in the fields they are qualified to teach in (which is why I love to joke I have an alphabet soup after my name).

(D) The public school taught my brother he was stupid because he was male-we are still trying to reverse this process.
Bullshit. When you consider that boys are mroe often called upon in class than girls, even by female teachers, boys are given more credit and the benefit of the doubt, not considered stupid.
The current divergance in how boys preform versus how girls preform can be attributed to parents. Girls are not permitted (generally) to be boisterous and run about all the time, while boys who do so are accepted and allowed to do so by the parents.

Well, it is mainly because the public schools (in america) are so dang bad!!
that is why I love Classical Education(like the Greek schools in the Classical age)

Bullshit. When you consider that boys are mroe often called upon in class than girls, even by female teachers, boys are given more credit and the benefit of the doubt, not considered stupid.
The current divergance in how boys preform versus how girls preform can be attributed to parents. Girls are not permitted (generally) to be boisterous and run about all the time, while boys who do so are accepted and allowed to do so by the parents.
I was relating to my family's personal experience-I certainly wouldn't try to undermine yours in any way.

Hey, I received a public school education, and it happened to be a really well run public school system (Virginia Beach).

However, I live in an area at present where I would likely put my kids through a private school, or home-school, as opposed to the public school system due to the relative poorness of the system here (Richmond)... Maybe Mayor Wilder will fix the problems, maybe he won't.

Both me and my wife (who teaches in Henrico County) fight hard with the school system and the direction it goes. Regardless of how well, and how much better we think the school system should be; we have little power over the system agaisnt the multitude of parents who:

1. Have little concern in educational progress, past merely wanting their kid to "do good", even if "doing good" requires the standards to be abysmal.

2. Do their kids work for them.

3. Blame everyone but themselves when their kids do poorly.

In the Richmond area there are a total of 7 private schools, and about 3 differnent "homeschool" groups, because of the poor quality of the Public School system in the area.Heck, I know at least one set of parents, who went to work for a local secular private school, just so they could get a discount to send their kid there. (If one works, they get a discount, if both work, they get it free)... I know a group of about 10 parents in a locality of a school where it is a drug haven, and violent.

Not everyone who homeschools does so for the same reason, but most that do so, do it for very valid reasons. And just because you went to a decent public school, does not mean all public schools (even all those in an area) are decent.... I am a presbyterian, my wife is an atheist.... My wife also teaches english. And you know what? In our city, there is a total of 3 elementary schools, 1 middle school, and no high-school where we would send our kid. And as long as we live in this area, our kids are going to be spending at least part, if not all, of their time either in private school, or being home-schooled.... Sure we would love public education in the area to be better.... But, it is us two against thousands of parents who would rather keep standards so low, their kids can get "A"'s (without earning them) just so they can pat themselves on the back...

1. Have little concern in educational progress, past merely wanting their kid to "do good", even if "doing good" requires the standards to be abysmal.

2. Do their kids work for them.

3. Blame everyone but themselves when their kids do poorly.

My dad has done and continues to do all three of these things.

My dad has done and continues to do all three of these things.

And your dad is not alone. You do not even want to know how many of my wife's student's parents do the exact same things.... And it is attitudes, like his, unfortunately, which are degrading the entire public education system slowly.

And your dad is not alone. You do not even want to know how many of my wife's student's parents do the exact same things.... And it is attitudes, like his, unfortunately, which are degrading the entire public education system slowly.

Ugh. At least I never needed help with my school work, except for that time I changed schools. My previous school had just started to learn multiplication, and the new school had already learned basic multiplication AND division in the 2nd grade (i was in 3rd)!

Ugh. At least I never needed help with my school work, except for that time I changed schools. My previous school had just started to learn multiplication, and the new school had already learned basic multiplication AND division in the 2nd grade (i was in 3rd)!

My wife has a rotating block schedual ( 3 classes per day, a total of 4 "blocks" of students across all days)... Each block has about 30 students. Comming to a total of about 120 students... she has about 4 parents who don't act like your dad in those regards. To top all of that off, thanks to NCLB, all kids are "integrated" (regardless whether or not they are Special education or not), with no asisstance or extra support for the "SE" kids... Kids are in rotating blocks (so unlike the old days, where we all had seperate classes) these kids see the same people all the time (so much for "Socialization skills" being part of public education). "Stanard" testing is performed twice a year. The last test taking place 3 weeks before the end of school (as such, final exams have been cut from the system, leaving the last three weeks as "dead time". Also, since power was cut at 8th grade, 7th and 6th grade teachers need to "assist" 8th grade teachers in planning, since NCLB mandated power changes, without providing the necessary funds in retraining to ensure proper manpower. "Homework" (mostly done by parents) makes up 80% of the grade... If a child "fails" a grade. They are allowed to progress to the next grade regardless, since "Holding them back" would do "damage" to their "sensitive psyche". Arts programs are "cut" from the curriculum, since they don't fit into the model of "Standardized" testing and curriculum... Leaving all arts programs as secondary concerns. All students are taught at the "same level" regardless of their particular aptitudes... Remediation is limited, and it is impossible for kids to get into accellerated advancement programs, since "singling out" is "bad".

Anyone want to wonder why private schools and homeschooling is so popular in this area? Simply because 20% of the parents are actually concerned about the qaulity of their kids education, while 80% generate all the white noise necessary to drown out their concerns when it comes to trying to impliment political power to actually accompish something.

Which is why, the "Homeschooling" "problem" is something created by parents whose kids are STILL IN the system, and not by those few, who are so tired of fighting a losing battle over their kids future, who have pulled them out of it.

Weird. Homeschooling is virtually unheard of in Germany, being restricted to extreme cases, like multi-allergic people not able to leave their home.
Considering that we have between 10 and 13 years of school before graduation and an average of 10 to 12 different subjects to cover i fail to see how a pair of parents, who dont have to be experts on neither didactics or the subjects they teach, could hope to handle the task. One of the main problems would be the mandatory foreign language, since language skills tend to deteriorate pretty fast if not used and a lot of those in the parent generation arent using what they learned in school anymore for quite some time now.

A few comments on this subject:

I went to public school grades K-12.
I have been a voracious reader since an early age.
Both my parents are highly educated (father - PhD, mother - dual BS).
I was diagnosed at a fairly early age with a "miscellaneous/mixed learning disorder".
My parents would have sent me to a private school, had one other that a local "Christian" school of questionable academic standards, been available.

Personally I found the greater part of my education came from various sources outside school. I was encouraged to read on a wide variety of subjects at home. I was tutored (either by my parents or professionals) in subjects that I had difficulty with and the local school system was unwilling/unable to spend extra time teaching me.

Looking back at my educational history, a homeschooling "unschooling" program would probably have suited me much better than public schooling. As it was, public school probably hendered more than it helped me, both academically and socially.


Here in Japan, homeschooling is almost unheard of. However, there is a small but growing homeschooling community. Homeschooling is often the result of an increasingly common problem of children who refuse to go to school.
For more info: http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ja8i-brtl/faq.html

I'm just wondering why there is such an appeal amongst certain circles for homeschooling. I understand some of the reasons given - better to not have the children indoctrinated by an appendage of the state, and so on. Very legitimate claim, I suppose.

At the same time, I'm trying to figure out what would make a parent academically qualified to teach the children. What percentage of the population in the U.S. has a masters degree - and how many of those hold degrees in maths and science? I'm assuming it's not a very high number. I mean, given that there is no lack of bad parenting in this country, how can we expect a homeschool based society to be any better off?

Anyway, try to convert this sceptic to the pro-homeschooling club.
For one thing, teachers themselves are not required to have Masters Degrees in Education, so your comparison is not useful. For another, as a teacher, I know how strained are our resources, and I see how hard it is to stop kids from falling through the cracks. I for one, don't want my children to miss out on educational opportunities because of the lack of funding, and the poor quality of education in general. I fully intend to homeschool my children, in part because I also intend to live in various countries over the next decade or so, and as a teacher, I am confident that I can provide a quality education.

That being said, I've also had a lot of experience with poor homeschooling. Homeschooling requires a lot of work, and a lot of support. It is not something to be entered into lightly. I wouldn't try to convert anyone to it...but I would encourage ALL parents to take a very active role in monitoring their child's education.

I have no children; if I did, however, I would never home-school them (unless they had some sort of severe health problem that made school attendance impossible).

It's been my experience that home-schooled kids are extremely smart and can relate to adults a lot better than other children.

However, they also tend to be socially inept due to lack of experience with people their own age. Interacting with people your own age while you're young gives you valuable lessons about life, and I don't think it's a good idea for kids to miss out on that.

I think that my biggest problem with homeschooling is that some of the parents doing the teaching do not know enough to give their children a good start.

I was in a room full of mothers doing a marketing survey a few months ago. In the room was a woman who was making a point to tell the rest of us how she was homeschooling her children. She could barely string two words together, let alone form a sentence. Whenever she would try to describe the taste, texture, packaging or anything else about the product, she just could not do it in anything more than unintelligent babble. She even looked like she did not take care of herself. Her clothes did not fit well, her hair looked unwashed and uncombed. I found myself feeling very sorry for her kids.

I have nothing agaisnt homeschooling - if the parent has the capabilities to make sure that the child does actually receive an education. I know for a fact that I could never teach my own children. Math and I have never gotten along, and probably never will. I knew enough about Math to pass, but it was always a battle. If it were up to me to teach my kids, I would fear they would never learn to count. I never liked math, had no interest in it and probably never will.

If I suddenly decided to begin homeschooling my children, would there be anything to guarentee that I was doing the best thing for my children? Sure I could teach them and follow simple instructions in the booklets, but if they actually had questions I would not be able to answer them. Even one of my old boyfriends had dated a girl who used to tell him if they had kids she was going to homeschool them. He admitted that while she was smart, she did not appear to have a lot of common sense and got distracted easily. He always used to talk about how if he had married her and had kids with her, he would fight to make sure they went to school rather than let her educate them.

[snip]
However, they also tend to be socially inept due to lack of experience with people their own age. Interacting with people your own age while you're young gives you valuable lessons about life, and I don't think it's a good idea for kids to miss out on that.
That's just not true. Homeschoolers do have many opportunities to socialize with their peers. In my local area there is a homeschoolers-only activity called "Park Day" which is held on a weekly basis where homeschoolers all meet at the public park and interact with each other. For me, well, I was never socially inept, per se, I just never had any desire to be "popular", with the exception of my very early years. Keep in mind that I was in public school for approximately 1/2 of my school career. I just never liked people very much after about 1st or 2nd grade.

All arguments already seem to have been given several times here.
And there is no real question that is discusses, but just a topic, thus chaotic discussion.
:sniper: *Tries to kill thread.*