NationStates Jolt Archive

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/felina/images/big_brother.gif

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/...sp?story=641731 (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=641731)

No wonder they're getting away with it. Nobody even cares.

No wonder they're getting away with it. Nobody even cares.

Its not that nobody cares, just that no ones surprised

I believe the primary interest is to sell technology, not to be able to access data. Well, it would be convenient, of course, but I think it's just an excuse.

They can go to hell, I'm not having a ID card, and the US is NOT going to have my details, not if my MP can do somthing about it. If this is past Britian would juts be becoming the 51st state of America.

They won't have acess to mine, seeing as I won't ever have an ID card. What are they going to do about it? If even 5-10 percent of the population refuse to get one then there will be too many people to deal with and it will end up costing them billions upon billions to take us to court for refusing to pay fines, ect.

Be very afraid Britons, be very afraid.

"US diplomatic sources stated later that Washington did not wish to interfere in the domestic affairs of other countries."

Since when? That is the biggest load of BS I've heard today.

Is it just me or have conspiracy theorists really been scrounging the bottom of the barrel since nobody cares about JFKs assassination anymore?

They can go to hell, I'm not having a ID card, and the US is NOT going to have my details, not if my MP can do somthing about it. If this is past Britian would juts be becoming the 51st state of America.
Would that be so bad? Doesn't every nation wish they could be part of the USA?

Would that be so bad? Doesn't every nation wish they could be part of the USA?

It's funny because so many USians think it's true.

Would that be so bad? Doesn't every nation wish they could be part of the USA?
Cuba does. It's what the star on the flag stands for (or stood for).

It's funny because so many USians think it's true.
I hope not, but you may be right.

the UN is appeasing america over its decision not to go to war, the EU is commending them (wait, the US isn't even in the EU-WTF?) for doing a good job in iraq (actually, iraqis don't think so)

what we should do is this: RUN OUR OWN COUNTRYS! America kicks up a huge fucking fuss whenever someone intervenes in thier...'politics' (its not politics-you need POLITICIANS for that) so, i say we just kick the shits out of europe, the rest of the world (and anywhere else we find them) and send them all.....straight back to the USA! if its so good, my FAT YANKEE FREINDS why don't you STAY THERE?

power hungry and diseased, this is what they feared would happen to other nations.......look what happened to thiers! watch episode 3; Lucas tried to tell the world long ago that america was just the empire, streching its diseased arm all over OTHER ppl's live's;

well, it won't continue-the terrorists have the upper hand now-uyou will lose this fight, just as you lost vietnam (if you don't fight far, then they won't-but since they fight harder and have a spine, you LOSE)

the UN is appeasing america over its decision not to go to war, the EU is commending them (wait, the US isn't even in the EU-WTF?) for doing a good job in iraq (actually, iraqis don't think so)

what we should do is this: RUN OUR OWN COUNTRYS! America kicks up a huge fucking fuss whenever someone intervenes in thier...'politics' (its not politics-you need POLITICIANS for that) so, i say we just kick the shits out of europe, the rest of the world (and anywhere else we find them) and send them all.....straight back to the USA! if its so good, my FAT YANKEE FREINDS why don't you STAY THERE?

power hungry and diseased, this is what they feared would happen to other nations.......look what happened to thiers! watch episode 3; Lucas tried to tell the world long ago that america was just the empire, streching its diseased arm all over OTHER ppl's live's;

well, it won't continue-the terrorists have the upper hand now-uyou will lose this fight, just as you lost vietnam (if you don't fight far, then they won't-but since they fight harder and have a spine, you LOSE)
Have we forgotten our medication today?

when you can see it happing, just as those who saw what the NAZI's where doing, and know that there will be nothing done by anyone who can help, then......YOU FEEL CRUSHED.

if there was an american child in front of me, and a terrorist next to me, trying to kill that child......i can honestly say i wouldn't try and stop him-the fewer of you, the better this world shall become.

when you can see it happing, just as those who saw what the NAZI's where doing, and know that there will be nothing done by anyone who can help, then......YOU FEEL CRUSHED.

if there was an american child in front of me, and a terrorist next to me, trying to kill that child......i can honestly say i wouldn't try and stop him-the fewer of you, the better this world shall become.

Thank you for sharing. Now we know not to pay any more attention to what you say ever again.

:) America should(and will) annex Britain. They already have (unofficially) and this is just another step to full annexation. The shadow of the empires glory shall be absorbed by one of its own colonies. how sad

"The Empire never ended"

when you can see it happing, just as those who saw what the NAZI's where doing, and know that there will be nothing done by anyone who can help, then......YOU FEEL CRUSHED.

if there was an american child in front of me, and a terrorist next to me, trying to kill that child......i can honestly say i wouldn't try and stop him-the fewer of you, the better this world shall become.
What's your problem? Are you seriously this stupid, immature, and disgusting, or are you just flaimbaiting? First of all, comparing the USA to the Nazis is just assinine. We don't run death camps. We're not taking over other people's land. You're showing the depth of your ignorance by making statements like that.

Secondly, you'd let a child be killed and do nothing? That shows what kind of scumbag you are. You're pittifull. Grow up and be a man.

bump

I think the government is outrageously optimistic if they expect people to pay £100 for a useless piece of plastic. I'm certainly not planning to empty my wallet.

Though I agree in no way with 'the teenage rebellion' the statement that the USA have deathcamps is subject to a tiny amount of debate. Guantanamo Bay may not be a death camp but it is certainly a humiliation camp with no justification for its existance apart from, being on cuban soil Americans can do whatever they want. Almost all, if not all of the UK prisoners held there for 2 YEARS were released without charge and will not even face trial. That doesn't mean they were proved Innocent, it means there wasn't even any evidence against them at all. I my opinion thats as close to a nazi deathcamp as we have in modern society at the moment.

First of all, comparing the USA to the Nazis is just assinine.

Actually, it's not far from the truth. Look up the 7 warning signs of facism and the 14 definitions of facism some time. Sure US doesn't run death camps (though there are some serious questions that need to be asked about Guantanamo Bay), but that's not what defines a facism. Neither is taking over people's land. Facism is purely internal and highly political.

Also, when dealing with someone you suspect of flamebaiting, the best way to deal with it is to not reply to them. Ignore them and they will go away...

In regards to the issue at hand, I am sorely disappointed that the ID cards passed in Britain. I had hope that the forces against those were stronger than those supporting it. I also seriously hope that the UK does NOT comply with the wishes of the US and makes them incompatible. If they want that information, they should have to go through the proper diplomatic channels, not merely scan a card.

Oh, and just in case this thread becomes an American people bashing thread: This opinion is from an American citizen who has been one since birth. It's our government you hate, not all of us. Remember that almost half of us voted for Kerry in 2004, and that MORE than half of us voted for Gore in 2000. Never judge an entire people by their elected politicians, you will always be wrong.

I think the government is outrageously optimistic if they expect people to pay £100 for a useless piece of plastic. I'm certainly not planning to empty my wallet.
Fair comment. there are 5 of us in my family and I'm not paying 500 quid for something I've already got. We hold passports and driver licences and the kids can get under 16 cards for free. I get into army camps as a contractor on my driver licence and if it's good enough for the paras it should be good enough for Tony and dubbya.

Its gunna be a bitch, you'd probably have to pay double to get a fake one make up

Actually, it's not far from the truth. Look up the 7 warning signs of facism and the 14 definitions of facism some time. Sure US doesn't run death camps (though there are some serious questions that need to be asked about Guantanamo Bay), but that's not what defines a facism. Neither is taking over people's land. Facism is purely internal and highly political.
People claim the US fulfils all 14 signs, and it's quite clear that the US is not fascist by a long stretch. The US isn't beating up those who have a chance to politically oppose Bush, and it's certainly not corporatist. It still allows trade unions. I wouldn't call the US totalitarian either.

Also, fascism =/= naziism. Naziism is a subset of fascism.

Fair comment. there are 5 of us in my family and I'm not paying 500 quid for something I've already got. We hold passports and driver licences and the kids can get under 16 cards for free. I get into army camps as a contractor on my driver licence and if it's good enough for the paras it should be good enough for Tony and dubbya.

Precisley. I know some one who just colour phot copied his passport back page laminated it ans used that as ID. Why can't they just do that?

Biometric crap is just invasion of privacy. and with the 'Terrorist Threat level' (for that read, likelyhood of london being bombed) going down, there is less and less need for it.

I suspect a lot of kids will be dissapointed when they find out there present money has gone on a fuckin piece of plastic, or some people can't afford a new car, can't go on holiday etc because they have to pay for an ID card. And how are students going to afford it too?

I can't see the ID cards becoming law, personally. By the time such a system would be in place (around 2010), andother Parliament would have been formed who are dead against the idea.


London faces a greater chance of being bombed by the IRA or one of its off-shoots. An Al-Quaeda attack is unlikely in comparison. Besides, who the hell takes terror threat levels seriously?

I can't see the ID cards becoming law, personally. By the time such a system would be in place (around 2010), andother Parliament would have been formed who are dead against the idea.


London faces a greater chance of being bombed by the IRA or one of its off-shoots. An Al-Quaeda attack is unlikely in comparison. Besides, who the hell takes terror threat levels seriously?

Yeah and how would ID cards lower it anyway?

Yeah and how would ID cards lower it anyway?

Apparently that d**k that is home secretary thinks that it will stop them as they can be arrested if they don't have one. Its not like the terrorists or whoever might have found a way to fake them...oh no....

Apparently that d**k that is home secretary thinks that it will stop them as they can be arrested if they don't have one. Its not like the terrorists or whoever might have found a way to fake them...oh no....

Because it isn't as if there are a lot of foreigners in London anyway. Any prospective terrorist could just pretend to be a tourist.

Because it isn't as if there are a lot of foreigners in London anyway. Any prospective terrorist could just pretend to be a tourist.

Yeah precisely. There are so many holes in the plan its crazy, and to think we are wasting all this money on it. Stupid.

Amen to that. we need to end this now, I've written to my MP about them, and he's promised to vote against them.

And then you wonder why some of us believe that the founders of our country felt it necessary to insist the civilian population be armed against the government....

Sigh....

Though I agree in no way with 'the teenage rebellion' the statement that the USA have deathcamps is subject to a tiny amount of debate. Guantanamo Bay may not be a death camp but it is certainly a humiliation camp with no justification for its existance apart from, being on cuban soil Americans can do whatever they want. Almost all, if not all of the UK prisoners held there for 2 YEARS were released without charge and will not even face trial. That doesn't mean they were proved Innocent, it means there wasn't even any evidence against them at all. I my opinion thats as close to a nazi deathcamp as we have in modern society at the moment.
actually some of them were locked back up as soon as they touched British territory. For the same reasons that they were locked up at Guantanamo I might add.

And then you wonder why some of us believe that the founders of our country felt it necessary to insist the civilian population be armed against the government....

Sigh....

That's probably not true any more is it? Civilians couldn't really fight off the government who has tanks and planes and stuff.

That's probably not true any more is it? Civilians couldn't really fight off the government who has tanks and planes and stuff.

Tell that to the Iraqis. They seem to be doing fine.

Tell that to the Iraqis. They seem to be doing fine.

I was talking about the United States of America, not Iraq.

I was talking about the United States of America, not Iraq.
And the net result would be different in what way? (Except that Americans are not inclined to blow themselves or children up to prove a point....)

I'm not saying that an armed populous would necessairly win, but it sure keeeps the gonernment thinking twice and three times when they realize it's THEIR neck in the noose...

Erm, isn't it funny how Britons get angry when Americans want access to their ID information and start raving about Big Brother...But don't get angry and Big Brother-y when their own government institutes the cards?

My way of seeing it? Europe is just craving for attention like an attention-deprived nine-year-old. Happened in WWI, happened in WWII, happened in the Cold War, and it's happening now. Maybe some of those European terrorists should attack the USA so we can give them more attention.

My way of seeing it? Europe is just craving for attention like an attention-deprived nine-year-old. Happened in WWI, happened in WWII, happened in the Cold War, and it's happening now. Maybe some of those European terrorists should attack the USA so we can give them more attention.
Aww...those poor widdle Europeans. They're just crazy, anti-American, terrorist sympathizing socialists because they feel unloved! :)

Exactly!

I say we need to make every political position a VOLUNTARY seat. They shouldn't get paid, taht way only the people who CARE ABOUT AMERICA will actually run.

That's probably not true any more is it? Civilians couldn't really fight off the government who has tanks and planes and stuff.


They could at least try. Also, it could seriously effect troop morale, fightingthere own people I mean.

Erm, isn't it funny how Britons get angry when Americans want access to their ID information and start raving about Big Brother...But don't get angry and Big Brother-y when their own government institutes the cards?

It hasn't been instituted quite yet (there is still hope), and not all of us support it. There is quite a sizable chunk of the population against them too.

It hasn't been instituted quite yet (there is still hope), and not all of us support it. There is quite a sizable chunk of the population against them too.

I don't think its going to get through. If it does i really think there are going to be protests.

Would that be so bad? Doesn't every nation wish they could be part of the USA?
Sorry, but the world is a little bigger than the USA, infact, if u looked outside ur own boarders, the entire world is waiting for ur damn demise!!! Id rather die than become an American

Erm, isn't it funny how Britons get angry when Americans want access to their ID information and start raving about Big Brother...But don't get angry and Big Brother-y when their own government institutes the cards?
We just pain dont want the Americans knowing our buisness because we know how the american government has fucked up america through fear. Plus the unbelievable frequency with which ur country's mainframes get broken into!!

We just pain dont want the Americans knowing our buisness because we know how the american government has fucked up america through fear. Plus the unbelievable frequency with which ur country's mainframes get broken into!!

Exactly. I feel myself that Bush is mixing religion with politics far too much. But, here's what i think.
There'll always be an america. By that I mean a country like america is now. look at the british empire - it was blind, stupid and wanted to be top dog. it was a hot-blooded new country. no matter what happens, someone will fill those shoes.

I think ID cards aren't all bad - if you move to France you get one, but paying for it? come one, my dad's a student and my mum is a learning support assistant. I've got a girlfriend to take out and my sister is 11. How can we afford our cards without giving up other things? what about the masses in council estates on benefits who milk the system? will they get theirs free?

This charging for them is what gets my goat, and as for the whole big-brother US thing, why should another country have our details? our government is one thing but america would be up in arms if anyone wanted their details!

okay... [/rant] sorry. I like ranting!

Erm, isn't it funny how Britons get angry when Americans want access to their ID information and start raving about Big Brother...But don't get angry and Big Brother-y when their own government institutes the cards?
Maybe you should natic that WE DON'T WANT THESE CARDS! THATS WHY WHERE PROTESTING!

Erm, isn't it funny how Britons get angry when Americans want access to their ID information and start raving about Big Brother...But don't get angry and Big Brother-y when their own government institutes the cards?

Er...why do you assume that since this is the first thread you have read on the subject that this debate hasnt been going on for some time already? The ID cards issue has been circling for months and has made a lot of people in Britain very angry. This news story is just the icing on the cake.

Here's the last little detail. For these cards to be effective, we'll constantly need to know who has one and who doesn't. Otherwise, who can tell? What use will they possibly be otherwise? But what does that mean?

"Papers, please."

oh, I thought we weren't going to be one of those nations where you need the correct identification just to be able to walk the street. But that's the only way you can check. Random stops by the police.

I would write to my MP on this, but unfortunately my MP is Jack Straw, so it would be a complete waste of paper. And for some reason, I don't think he'd listen to me. Maybe it would be something to do with the fact me and my mate tailed his security detail to track him down simply to ask him "How many people died in Iraq? How do you even sleep at night?" because during the election campaign he wouldn't even speak to those who opposed him. He wouldn't even shake my hand in the name of sportsmanship at the election count. Unbelievably, the Tories and UKIP were far happier to speak to a loony lefty like myself.

ID cards scare the crap out of me, especially with the formation of SOCA which I don't quite understand the point of. I mean, we already have Special Branch, Customs and Excise and the Security Services to deal with SOCA's mandate, so what they hell are they going to do? I honestly think they only called it SOCA because too many people know what "Thought Police" means.

I think its strange that ID cards are being used to combat the war on terror for all the reasons that people have already mentioned, 0 people have been killed on British soil by "Islamic" terrorists but I think the IRA have killed around 1,800 and no-one tried to bring them in in the 70s and 80s when we were at a much greater risk of terrorist attack.

Maybe the ID cards aren't made out of plastic, maybe they're some kind of kevlar and in the event of a terrorist attack, they're designed to protect us from shrapnel. A handy, wallet sized shield.

This ID card problem is just like the metric system, or abolition of the death penalty, or electronic banking. Before they are instituted, all sorts of popular superstitions are common. "What, do we have to call the inchworm centimeterworm?" or "But if murderers aren't killed, doesn't everyone start murdering because they aren't punished anymore?"

National ID cards are useful, that's why they're used. In Britain, the EU directive about personal information is in force, and that is strict. The government can't legally become any sort of a big brother.

But, the problem here is that a nation without any laws regarding personal information wants to get the information. USA is a Wild West with respect to privacy; the government and the corporations can do just about anything they want, and it's perfectly legal. When personal information is lost to the American government or an American corporation, it's "at large" from then on. That's why USA is the world's leading spammer.

Er...why do you assume that since this is the first thread you have read on the subject that this debate hasnt been going on for some time already? The ID cards issue has been circling for months and has made a lot of people in Britain very angry. This news story is just the icing on the cake.

"You hypocrits!" is the standard response to any criticism of the USA.

National ID cards are useful,

To who?

[]that's why they're used. In Britain, the EU directive about personal information is in force, and that is strict. The government can't legally become any sort of a big brother.


It can still be very nannyish though

WTF!!!! Oh for fuck sake US wants now to interfere in Britain? Damn yankees UK colonized their land in other word UK is their father, i'm not american nor english, but shit US always wants to keep their noses on other people bussines. I do strongly hope that UK won't sit down for this they have dignity.

I'm not against american people i'm against their stupid goverment, well i hope that in a few years the chinks will kick the shit out of that corrupt goverment.

the US is attempting to gain information on everyone so they can tilt their chances of becoming THE global super power, and not just A super power. Our president is a benign fool with no mind of his own, and as in the British government, like the queen, he is a figurehead. this is coming from deep within the US intelligence system and they are using fear tactics to control the people and as a way to propagate their means. they place the guise of national security and national interest, when its really just their way of gripping anyone who oppses them and making all of us paranoid and too timid to speak up and say anything. :eek: :headbang: :mp5:

The government can't legally become any sort of a big brother.
the government doesnt have to follow laws, it wont prosecute itself on the basis of espionage whether political, industrial, or military. and as for watching us? they dont give a fuck about us or our privacy. as long as they have money and power, we are S.O.L.

the US is attempting to gain information on everyone so they can tilt their chances of becoming THE global super power, and not just A super power. Our president is a benign fool with no mind of his own, and as in the British government, like the queen, he is a figurehead. this is coming from deep within the US intelligence system and they are using fear tactics to control the people and as a way to propagate their means. they place the guise of national security and national interest, when its really just their way of gripping anyone who oppses them and making all of us paranoid and too timid to speak up and say anything. :eek: :headbang: :mp5:


the government doesnt have to follow laws, it wont prosecute itself on the basis of espionage whether political, industrial, or military. and as for watching us? they dont give a fuck about us or our privacy. as long as they have money and power, we are S.O.L.

word.

Let me start off by saying I'm American, and being American doesn't mean I want your ID card information any more than being a Brit automatically means you want to pay for an (as I understand it) invasive and useless ID card. Like someone said earlier, you can't gauage an entire country's opinions based on the actions of their (barely) elected officials.

Let me follow that up by saying I can at times be a bit of a conspiracy theorist; I don't get those little grocery discount cards because I don't want my personal habits being traced. I pay an extra 10 cents for a loaf of bread, a fair price, I think, for telling the corporate machine "stay the hell out of my personal life, just bag my groceries and go away!"

I think the whole national ID card suggestion is pretty lame. It won't effectively stymie any foreign terrorist flow because (a) Britain isn't exactly a terrorist Mecca (not necessarily implying terrorists are generally Islamic, it just works for the analogy) and (b) Britain is a hot spot for tourists; There will be so many people without government IDs at any given moment that the whole system would be futile (if it was being used for the purpose that they've actually proposed it be used for) unless the government suggests issuing temporary "outlander" tags that flash and whistle whenever a dirty foreigner leaves his/her designated space.

I think "America" (remember that whole people's opinions versus administration's opinions thing) wants access to the Brits' ID cards to further globalize the American image as the "Allfather;" if Britain gives us access to their cards, do you think we won't ask the same of France, and every country in line after that? There will be no rock you can crouch behind to hide you from Allfather Sam (because uncles are friendly and benign). Imagine possessing all the personal information about an individual that there respective government has about them AND their exact location at any point in time? (It's not so preposterous; all cell phones can have their positions triangulated and it's becoming a regular feature on most cars, for "roadside assitance," of course :) . Why wouldn't it be a feature on something MEANT to track you?) That would definitely be handy in fighting terrorists wherever they show their faces or (more likely) wherever they start doing things "we" don't approve of. How long until these cards become remotely updatable(sp), so the more "suspicious" your habits become the closer the government watches you?

What's scarier than that idea? Europe deals with ID cards, big whoop. The FDA has approved an implantable chip with your personal information logged into it. For medical purposes, of course.

haha "1984", science fiction or documentary?

:) America should(and will) annex Britain. They already have (unofficially) and this is just another step to full annexation. The shadow of the empires glory shall be absorbed by one of its own colonies. how sad


How sad you have such delusions that any such military attempt would be successfull.

Unofficialy, politically, you may already have, but militarily?

*puts on crackly old record that is playing 'Land of Hope and Glory'*

My grandfather and his generation fought off the Nazis, and if such a scenario as you suggest occurs, and a fair share of the British people will be more than willing to take up the fight against the Nazi's modern day equivalent. they will resist, and will make Vietnam look like a small 2 second girl's fight at the back of a bike shed. We will swallow your soldiers whole. There will be these hard bastards called the SAS who will give you a bit of bother too.

You would have to nuke all of us, and even then that would not hand you victory, but an admission you could not take this island.


Besides, the Yanks are on the wane, and will most likely find themselves economically annexed by China, seeing as China already owns America, overshadowing it on the fact of how it is the fastest growing economic power.

Then you two will have a war perhaps, and the EU stands by smugly, selling arms to either side, making a huge profit.

Besides, the Yanks are on the wane, and will most likely find themselves economically annexed by China, seeing as China already owns America, overshadowing it on the fact of how it is the fastest growing economic power.

Then you two will have a war perhaps, and the EU stands by smugly, selling arms to either side, making a huge profit.

It's funny because it's true.

Of all the probable shifts in global power, the US's fall to the superiority of Chinese imports seems most likely.

And if a war ever broke out, that would be the way to get rich. How do you think America did it?