NationStates Jolt Archive

I was just wondering exactly how Christians explain the different races/ethnic groups of humans on the planet. ie: Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and all the different sub-splits ie. Scandinavian vs Mediterranian.

If we are all decended from Adam & Eve, and then Noah and his family how do explain it. Without evolution? Why are Black people Black? Why do the Japanese tend to be short, Why do Scandinavians tend to be tall with blonde hair?

I was just wondering exactly how Christians explain the different races/ethnic groups of humans on the planet. ie: Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and all the different sub-splits ie. Scandinavian vs Mediterranian.

If we are all decended from Adam & Eve, and then Noah and his family how do explain it. Without evolution? Why are Black people Black? Why do the Japanese tend to be short, Why do Scandinavians tend to be tall with blonde hair?

If light haired people come from cold climates and dark haired people from hot climates and mixed people come from mixed climates then how do you describe ginger people? It can only be concluded that God made them for a laugh and randomly dotted them around the world.

I was just wondering exactly how Christians explain the different races/ethnic groups of humans on the planet. ie: Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and all the different sub-splits ie. Scandinavian vs Mediterranian.

If we are all decended from Adam & Eve, and then Noah and his family how do explain it. Without evolution? Why are Black people Black? Why do the Japanese tend to be short, Why do Scandinavians tend to be tall with blonde hair?Good question i believe that it is the tower of babel were God seperated the people languages and moved them all over the earth and naturaly because that all people could do was become inbreds people changed in skin colour.

People settled in different parts of the world and their appearences changed accordingly


Without Evolution please. Peoples appearences change as they physically adapted to their environments. That's basic evolution.

I was just wondering exactly how Christians explain the different races/ethnic groups of humans on the planet. ie: Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and all the different sub-splits ie. Scandinavian vs Mediterranian.

If we are all decended from Adam & Eve, and then Noah and his family how do explain it. Without evolution? Why are Black people Black? Why do the Japanese tend to be short, Why do Scandinavians tend to be tall with blonde hair?
If you wanna hear something funny, here's the Christian Identity version of it:
They believe that whites are the true descendants of Adam, because Adam and Eve were white. They believe that the 'mark' put on Cain is dark skin, and therefore that all races other than whites are descendants of Cain, and evil. Some also believe that Jews are descendants of Satan.

That's a view held by a rather tiny minority of Christians, though.

If light haired people come from cold climates and dark haired people from hot climates and mixed people come from mixed climates then how do you describe ginger people? It can only be concluded that God made them for a laugh and randomly dotted them around the world.

*Smites QuentinTarantino for the ginger comment*

Without Evolution please. Peoples appearences change as they physically adapted to their environments. That's basic evolution.check mine please

If you wanna hear something funny, here's the Christian Identity version of it:
They believe that whites are the true descendants of Adam, because Adam and Eve were white. They believe that the 'mark' put on Cain is dark skin, and therefore that all races other than whites are descendants of Cain, and evil. Some also believe that Jews are descendants of Satan.

That's a view held by a rather tiny minority of Christians, though.thats not true

After digging around Christian web sites using Google

From http://www.gotquestions.org/different-races.html

Question: “What is the origin of the different races?”

Answer: The Bible does not say where the different races came from. Some speculate that when God confused the languages at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:1-9) He also created the different races. While possible, I find that view unlikely. Races of humanity are nowhere mentioned in connection with the Tower of Babel. The best explanation is that Adam and Eve possessed the genes to produce black, brown, and white offspring (and everything else in between). This is similar to how a mixed-race couple often has children that vary greatly in color from one another.

The only survivors of the flood were Noah and his wife, Noah’s three sons and their wives, 8 people in all (Genesis 7:13). Perhaps Shem’s, Ham’s, or Japheth’s wives were of different races. It is possible that Noah’s wife was of a different race than Noah. Maybe all 8 of them were of mixed race, which would mean that they possessed the genetics to produce children of different races.

check mine please


you say "I believe"

is that what is says in the Bible?

it's held by a majority?

As a strong supporter of evolution, I find this discussion very amusing... :)

im giving my interperatation of what is says in the Bible

thats not true

The whole comment or that its held by a small minority of christians?

After digging around Christian web sites using Google

From http://www.gotquestions.org/different-races.html

Question: “What is the origin of the different races?”

Answer: The Bible does not say where the different races came from. Some speculate that when God confused the languages at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:1-9) He also created the different races. While possible, I find that view unlikely. Races of humanity are nowhere mentioned in connection with the Tower of Babel. The best explanation is that Adam and Eve possessed the genes to produce black, brown, and white offspring (and everything else in between). This is similar to how a mixed-race couple often has children that vary greatly in color from one another.

The only survivors of the flood were Noah and his wife, Noah’s three sons and their wives, 8 people in all (Genesis 7:13). Perhaps Shem’s, Ham’s, or Japheth’s wives were of different races. It is possible that Noah’s wife was of a different race than Noah. Maybe all 8 of them were of mixed race, which would mean that they possessed the genetics to produce children of different races.


That is certainly a well thought out concept - but still speculation, I would have thought all the races of man might be worth a mention at some point in the old testament - or do you think they just forgot to mention it?

Are you saying that their story isn't true, or that itisn't true that it's only held by a tiny minority of them?Im saying that 1 the sin nature is not of cain and second christians dont believe the jews are satan spawn

Im saying that 1 the sin nature is not of cain and second christians dont believe the jews are satan spawn
I didn't say all Christians believe that. If you had read the last line, you would have noticed that it said only a tin group of them believe that. The Christian Identity movement is that group.

That is certainly a well thought out concept - but still speculation, I would have thought all the races of man might be worth a mention at some point in the old testament - or do you think they just forgot to mention it?

That came from some Baptist site. Maybe they ignored the Old Testament.

Im saying that 1 the sin nature is not of cain and second christians dont believe the jews are satan spawn
He said "small minority". There are very racist people in every area of life, including Christianity.

He said "small minority". There are very racist people in every area of life, including Christianity.im saying i have never in my life talked to a christian who believed that

That came from some Baptist site. Maybe they ignored the Old Testament.


mmm, I was kinda hoping I was gonna get some definative answers from Christians quoting verses etc... Do you think it may be something they havn't really thought about?

FFc2, if you talk to me then you can say you have talked to someone who has.

im saying i have never in my life talked to a christian who believed that
Here's an info page on it:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm

Here's an info page on it:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm


It all sounds very Christian to me

FFc2, if you talk to me then you can say you have talked to someone who has.let me correct myself no TRUE christian

mmm, I was kinda hoping I was gonna get some definative answers from Christians quoting verses etc... Do you think it may be something they havn't really thought about?

I'm not Christian (well, I am in NS and II) but I don't have a copy of the Old Testament on me. I wish there were some Christian academics here to help you out.

I'm not Christian (well, I am in NS and II) but I don't have a copy of the Old Testament on me.
You can read it in multiple versions all on teh intarwebs!
King James Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=9&lang=2)
NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=31&lang=2)

That is certainly a well thought out concept - but still speculation, I would have thought all the races of man might be worth a mention at some point in the old testament - or do you think they just forgot to mention it?
Why? They were used to seeing people of different color back then and in that part of the world. They just didn't think in terms of race, a much later concept.

I was just wondering exactly how Christians explain the different races/ethnic groups of humans on the planet. ie: Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and all the different sub-splits ie. Scandinavian vs Mediterranian.

If we are all decended from Adam & Eve, and then Noah and his family how do explain it. Without evolution? Why are Black people Black? Why do the Japanese tend to be short, Why do Scandinavians tend to be tall with blonde hair?

natural selection is at work today. We can see this in God's 'second book', i.e., nature. This explains the selective pressure on the various peoples groups that we see today. Actually, at a genetic level, there is more variation between idividuals within a race than there is between two totally different races. That's rather a broad generalization of course, and there has to be exceptions. One exception is the rather short people of the African bush (Have you ever seen the movie, 'the gods must be crazy'? These people are featured in it.) These are genetically speaking, the outsiders. Yet even they have genes so similar to ours, there is no doubt that they are the same species. It simply means that however far back the split between our anscetors (ours being caucasian, asian, negro, etc) was, since then they have tended to only breed within their community. Possibly, they tended to view the tall people as unmarriagable.

However, even today, it is possible for a caucasian to marry one of them and have children. That means that they are not very genetically us. Analysis at the DNA level confirms this (Ive not personally studied them, but remember reading this somewhere.)

Races are easily consistent with creation. Natural selection is also the way the world is. The fittest survive, pass on their genes, while the lest fit die, and their genes are lost. The selection pressure is things like disease, culture, body length, body size (e.g. thickset large framed people are more at home in the cold climate, while skinny people with smaller frames are better in the heat).
Genetic mutations can sometimes be advantageous in this way, and are consequently passed on to the next generation. This is not evolution, but it is natural selection.

Evolution is where, for example, a species accumulates a whole heap of mutations over several generations, or several thousands of generations, and so produces, by means of those mutations, a new feature which helps this species to survive in it's environment. The major weakness with evolution theory is when it fails to explain how non-sense mutations can create something that works without a flaw, for example, an eye has to be flawless in order to work. Evolution would predict that before a species had two eyes, it had one eye, and before it had one eye, the pre-eye served some other unknown function that enabled the organism to survive. The problem is that mutations do not occur on demand. Organism usually don't think 'oh, I need a new mutation now to pass on to my child, so that their funny lump can become an eye'

I hope I have cleared the water for you, but perhaps I just muddied it up a bit more!!

:headbang:

With a genepool as small as 8 (from noah&brood) and operating under the idea that evolution is BS, we'd all be homogenous and badly inbred. And probably too stupid to count.

You can read it in multiple versions all on teh intarwebs!
King James Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=9&lang=2)
NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=31&lang=2)


I don't want read the entire Old Testament - I was kinda presuming that someone who calls themselves CHristian and basis their life on this particular belief system might possibly have read the book and be able to tell me Christianities explanation.

It appears not. I wonder why?

Evolution is where, for example, a species accumulates a whole heap of mutations over several generations, or several thousands of generations, and so produces, by means of those mutations, a new feature which helps this species to survive in it's environment. The major weakness with evolution theory is when it fails to explain how non-sense mutations can create something that works without a flaw, for example, an eye has to be flawless in order to work. Evolution would predict that before a species had two eyes, it had one eye, and before it had one eye, the pre-eye served some other unknown function that enabled the organism to survive. The problem is that mutations do not occur on demand. Organism usually don't think 'oh, I need a new mutation now to pass on to my child, so that their funny lump can become an eye'

I hope I have cleared the water for you, but perhaps I just muddied it up a bit more!!

You are apparently unaware of what different stages and types of eyes there are. If you were you would realized how evolution of the eye works.

You can read it in multiple versions all on teh intarwebs!
King James Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=9&lang=2)
NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=31&lang=2)

Genesis 10-11. Interesting reading.

Why? They were used to seeing people of different color back then and in that part of the world. They just didn't think in terms of race, a much later concept.


Sorry - are you seriously suggesting that somebody bothered to explain the origin of man, woman all the creatures on the planet, the fact they all got wiped out by a flood, various plagues etc... and at no point thought about writing about why everyone appeared different.

There seems to be a myth floating around that a Believer in Christ does not believe in any form of evolution. It's the evolutionary thought that takes a monkey and makes it human that goes against everything God gave to us in Genesis. But that is for a different thread.

With that background, the best explanation is the one mentioned above where Adam and Eve, created with perfect and complete genes/dna, had the genes capable producing all skin colors (there's only one race...human). As people migrated through the earth they would obviously procreate with the people around them, thus DNA would be similar in these area's. It's the same with animals, if you had a pair of Dog's with close to complete DNA, you could eventually bread every other "specie" of dog we now have, all part of the Dog kind of course.

Why doesn't the Bible mention how the races were started? Simple answer, it doesn't matter. The bible says that man(kind) was created in the image of God. There's no need for further distinction. Those who have tried to use the Bible to make "racial" disctinctions tread down a path God did not intend them to tread, and have ended up doing dastardly things in the name of Bible, which they use in an attempt to justify their actions.

The problem about all your wonderful explanations is they are totally inconsistent with our understanding of genetics... :rolleyes:

Not all Christians take the 'Adam and Eve' story as literally as written in the Bible, so I don't see how there's a conflict there (unless the story *is* taken literally)

Not all Christians take the 'Adam and Eve' story as literally as written in the Bible, so I don't see how there's a conflict there (unless the story *is* taken literally)


What is the point of calling yourself Christian then? If you don't believe in all it says in your own book, then there's no point surely?

I might as well call myself Hinda because I like some of the stories in the Ramayana.

To believe in the basic ideas of Christianity, you don't have to take the bible literally...

Actually, humanity is pretty inbred, there are theories saying that we have barely made it. Two average rabits have more genetic variation between them than the two most different humans.

I was just wondering exactly how Christians explain the different races/ethnic groups of humans on the planet. ie: Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and all the different sub-splits ie. Scandinavian vs Mediterranian.

If we are all decended from Adam & Eve, and then Noah and his family how do explain it. Without evolution? Why are Black people Black? Why do the Japanese tend to be short, Why do Scandinavians tend to be tall with blonde hair?
Ah yes, because us Christians think it is, at least, debatable that we're all descended ultimately from an amoeba which randomly came into existence itself, we obviously cannot comprehend or explain the simplest of genetics! How stupid we all are!

The different "races" (and I don't even like using this term because I find arbitrary distinctions based on melanin content and other random characteristics, in a word, stupid) are the way they are because of microevolution - which is a proven, hard scientific fact. Microevolution is genetic change within a species, that results in different skin colors in humans, different breeds of dogs, and different beaks in Darwin's famous finches.

Sorry - are you seriously suggesting that somebody bothered to explain the origin of man, woman all the creatures on the planet, the fact they all got wiped out by a flood, various plagues etc... and at no point thought about writing about why everyone appeared different.
Yup. Do you feel a need to explain why some people have wavy hair and others straight? Why your cousin is taller than you and your uncle shorter?

People then and there simply were the color they were. As easy as that.

Yup. Do you feel a need to explain why some people have wavy hair and others straight? Why your cousin is taller than you and your uncle shorter?

People then and there simply were the color they were. As easy as that.


Can you imagine if every scientist in the world thbought like you - we'd still be without the wheel.

Can you imagine if every scientist in the world thbought like you - we'd still be without the wheel.
I didn't know the people who wrote the Bible were scientists. You have to look at the Bible in context.

I didn't know the people who wrote the Bible were scientists. You have to look at the Bible in context.


Ahh, do you mean the context that when the thing was written people were only beginning to learn how the works, thought the world was flat and worshiped a variety of gods because they didn't know any better. Which makes it even funnier that anyone believes it now actually.

Ahh, do you mean the context that when the thing was written people were only beginning to learn how the works, thought the world was flat and worshiped a variety of gods because they didn't know any better. Which makes it even funnier that anyone believes it now actually.
Yup. That's the one. That's why there's no explanation of races in the Bible, the writers simply didn't classify people like that.

God obviously delights in variety and beauty. :) Why is our sky a beautiful blue, but the sky on the moon black? Because God created this planet to be inhabited, and He wanted us to enjoy the beautiful colors here. Isaiah 45:18 says, "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED: I am the LORD; and there is none else." We are told by man that it is our atmosphere that takes the blue wave length of light and makes our sky look blue to us here. Why did He make the grass and leaves on the trees green? What about the clouds? Why did He make them white? Why did He make the bark on the trees brown? Why did He make the dirt brown? Why did He make the sunset red and orange? Why did He make the leaves turn yellow, orange and red before they fall off of the trees in the fall? Why did God make the rainbow a variety of colors all in one? Why is the foundation of the heavenly city New Jerusalem not going to be gray cement, but a dazzling array of a variety of gems?
Revelation 21:18-21 "And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass."
In short,God loves beauty, and a variety of colors.
The same holds true of mankind which He created. From the two people which He created, He programmed into their genes an infinite variety of possibilities and colors. Some conceptions between two people would produce blond hair; others brunette; and others red. Revelation 1:13,14 "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. HIS HEAD AND HIS HAIRS WERE WHITE LIKE WOOL, AS WHITE AS SNOW; and his eyes were as a flame of fire."
But what do many people do when their hair starts to change color? They start dying it. Millions of people do not want gray, silver, or white hair, so they keep coloring it blonde, brunette, red, or a combination somewhere in between those colors but it would seem God would have us all to have white hair in the end! :confused:
Why do some people associate the color of the skin with the curse placed upon Ham and his descendants? You did not ask that question, but it is appropriate to answer it at this point, because that is why many people do question skin color in relation to Ham. Why are we not consistent with all of our "color differences" in the body?
Would that mean dark brown eyes part of the curse? Are light blue eyes more spiritual than dark brown? Are hazel eyes more spiritual than just green or just brown? Are any traits in the body that are "darker" (than what Adam and Eve had) automatically part of the curse? Where does it say in the Bible that the color of the skin was darkened on people as part of the curse? It never does say that.
If that was the case, then European people would be more spiritual than the Jews, because the Jews tend to be darker than the Germans. Remember what Hitler thought? He considered the Jews to be "less than pure" when compared to the lighter and fairer complexions of the Germans. So what was his idea? To kill all other people (darker than they, the Germans) and produce a "pure" race (of lighter and fairer complected people).
It is surprising how many Christians actually think that darker-skinned people are all under the curse of Ham, and are really less spiritual and less blessed of God than are fairer-skinned people. That attitude is not from God.
The races of black, yellow and red......when or how did God create them?He "created" those varieties of colors when He created Adam and Eve. That is when He "created" them.
When did God allow those colors to come out, flourish, and multiply? Perhaps with the dispersion at the Tower of Babel.
Genesis 11:1-9 says, "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth."
Those people were dispersed, of course, according to the language that God allowed them to speak and understand. God, in His wisdom, gave certain languages to certain people. He wanted certain people together, and those were the ones to whom He gave the same language. This also does not mean that some languages are "cursed languages" and others are not. If that was the case, then how could God have given the Old Testament in Hebrew, the New Testament in Greek, and do a world wide mission work mainly from English-speaking people today? Why would He not consistently use the "one approved language," and curse the others? Zephaniah 3:9 says, "For then will I turn to the people a PURE LANGUAGE, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent." You will notice that the context calls it a "pure language," because, finally, everyone will be able to understand and serve the Lord with the same language "with one consent."
When God gave certain languages to certain groups of people, he obviously did so by design. As those people were forced of necessity to associate with certain people (because they were the only ones with whom they could communicate) they then married within that small group, and their dominant colors and traits then came out. And those traits probably multiplied very rapidly when marrying others with the same dominant colors and traits.
Think of a family that you have seen with children that all have very distinctive features. Because of it, people quickly guess that they are of a certain family because of those distinctions. Maybe they have a very distinctively-shaped jaw, or a very distinctively- shaped nose, or very distinctive lips, or maybe it is something about the eyes that sets them off as a family.
Now suppose that you change that families’ language so that they cannot communicate with anyone else upon earth. You send them off to a region where they are alone, and they are forced to intermarry. Now, wait for several generations, and go visit them. What will you find? You will find a whole group of people that, although you can tell them apart, have very distinguishing features that lets you know in a moment that they all belong to the same group. They all have that same basic jaw shape. They all have that same basic nose. They all have that same basic complexion. They all have those same-shaped eyes, etc.
That is exactly what we see amongst the different races of the world. Is it just the color of the skin that sets off the Japanese from the Americans? No. The shape of their eyes is different. Is it just the skin color that sets off the African from the European? No. The European’s nose and lips will probably be thinner and smaller than the African’s. What about the Jew compared to the American Indian? Not only will their skin color not be the same, but the Jew’s cheek bones will probably not be as high as the Indian’s, nor will their eyes have the same shape and slant.
So the real question is not when did God create all of these colors and features, because He did so when He made Adam and Eve. In their genes they had all of these possible varieties. So when did God allow those colors to come out, flourish, and multiply? The answer, "Immediately following the Tower of Babel."
God had purpose and design in giving people who spoke different languages very distinctive features. For one thing, it has kept them basically apart for all of these centuries now (yes, different races do intermarry today, but it has not always been considered the normal practice). Man could have learned the languages of other nations, eventually, and could have been all one, big, rebellious family against God again — just like at the Tower of Babel. But when God separated them by language, He also allowed other features to quickly come out that would help to keep them apart. I think it has to do with God’s desire to keep the people’s of the earth somewhat separate from each other. Because God knows that when the earth gets all together, they will end up rebelling against Him.
That is exactly what is going to happen in the end time. There is going to be a "one world church," a "one world government," and a "one world philosophy" — all against God. It is going to be a world-united church against the one true way of salvation through Jesus Christ. It is going to be a world-united government that will stand up against the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. It will be a world-united philosophy that true Christians are "bad, narrow-minded, and the true problem upon earth."
The different races are intermarrying more and more today, but through the differences in language and distinctive features, God has kept them basically apart until their final day of worldwide union and rebellion against Him.
Ham wasn't black, so how could the race of Ham be black if he intermarried with a black? Wouldn't that be a diluted race?"
Again, God had all of the possible colors and features programmed into Adam and Eve’s genes. And as I said, I do not know that the curse upon Ham’s descendants has anything to do with skin color at all. And, as I said, it would not have been with Ham that the different races started, but with the rebellion at the Tower of Babel.

According to Webster’s Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary, "dilute" means "to diminish the strength, flavor, or brilliance of by admixture." If you want to talk about a point at which the different races were "diluted," then you are going to have to look at some point AFTER the Tower of Babel, when someone finally broke out of their group (meaning their group to which God had given a certain language and certain dominant physical characteristics) and intermarried with another group or race. I do not know how many years that was after the Tower of Babel, But those groups or races would have been "pure" until one of them intermarried with another group or race.

Ham really has very little to do with the "race" question, when dealt with from the Biblical perspective. In fact, the Bible refers to a group of people as being of "Ham," and their skin is not black at all, but very similar in complexion to the Jews. Psalm 105:23-27 "Israel also came into EGYPT, and Jacob sojourned in THE LAND OF HAM. And he increased his people greatly, and made them stronger than their enemies. He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtly with his servants. He sent Moses his servant, and Aaron whom he had chosen. They showed his signs among them, and wonders in THE LAND OF HAM." This passage calls Egypt, "the land of Ham." The Egyptians are not black-skinned, but just dark-complected. Some of them would be no darker than many Americans. So to say that Ham was black, or that all of his descendants are, is not true at all.
When it comes to skin color, I think it has more to do with the God-given ability to adapt to certain climates, and those people whom God sent to those places with certain dominant genes, to make it very pronounced. Where were the very dark-skinned people or races found (before man started hauling them out of their settling places, where they had been since the Tower of Babel)? The darkest-skinned people were found nearest the equator — in the hottest climates. Take a world map and find the equator on it. Look at Africa. Right above and below the equator is Nigeria, Zaire, Kenya, etc. What color is the skin of those people? Normally, very, dark. But look up to the top of Africa, and what countries do you see? Libya, Morocco, and Egypt. Those people are, for the most part, just dark-complected, not black. Look down into South Africa. There are so many white people there, that they had been the ruling class for many, many years.

Now follow the equator over to South America. It crosses through Brazil. Are the Brazilian’s black-skinned? No. We would probably say that they are mainly just dark-complected. But in some of the little countries just above Brazil, they do have a good number of black-skinned people. What is the difference? Temperature is the difference. Many of the South American countries have many mountainous regions, which, although they are close to the equator, the higher elevation would keep them cooler than the lower elevations that are near the equator.

What is the whole point? The darkest-skinned people are generally found in the hottest climates. God had, by design, people move to those hot locations (at the dispersing of the Tower of Babel) to whom He had seen fit to receive certain dominant genes that would help them be more comfortable there. Can you imagine a very light-skinned group of people moving to the very hot areas near the equator? :cool: What would happen? :confused: They would be burnt to a crisp all summer long. Some people burn a little when they first go out in the sun, but then tan, and eventually, can stay outside all day in the hottest sun. Why? Because God allows the skin to turn darker so that it does not burn. :) But some very light-skinned people can go out in the sun and burn one day, and then peel. They go out again, and the same things happens. They just do not seem to tan and get past that point. God did not send people to those areas which could not adapt to such climates. He sent people there with certain dominant genes who would adapt very well to such hot conditions, and their tendencies of very dark skin would serve them well in such hot, sunny climates. The further north or south you get away from the equator, the light-skinned people normally are.
So then God placed all of the possible skin colors and characteristics into Adam and Eve’s genes. When man multiplied upon the face of the earth after the flood, and became as one, man rebelled against God. To stop that rebellion, God confounded their language so that they could not understand each other. When He broke them down into smaller groups and they then married among themselves, He allowed certain things within their genes to come out in a dominant way. Those dominant traits would help them in two ways. First, it would help them to keep to their own group or race, and thus be less apt to get together and rebel against God again. And some of those dominant traits would help them be more comfortable in their climates where they settled. ;)

Ahh, do you mean the context that when the thing was written people were only beginning to learn how the works, thought the world was flat and worshiped a variety of gods because they didn't know any better. Which makes it even funnier that anyone believes it now actually.


Is the fact that your user name rhymes with "Cock" just a coincidence I wonder?

Sorry, just a thought.

Yup. That's the one. That's why there's no explanation of races in the Bible, the writers simply didn't classify people like that.

Just took a minute to have a web search...

"Compared with all the ancient monuments that refer to ethnographic issues - no other document is as comprehensive as the Bible. It is a real treasury of historical facts; in it we find the earliest historical data about many nations, among which the Macedonian nation has a significant place. At the very beginning (1 Moses 10:4), we find accounts of Macedonia, which point to the fact that the Macedonians have been known as an individual ethnic group since the earliest of times. The ethnographic chart in Chapter 10 of Genesis is an ethnographic document, and since it dates back to the time of Moses (15th-13th centuries B.C.), it supplies data about nations existing on our planet in even more distant times. Moses most probably composed the ethnographic chart on the basis of even older Jewish records written down in the course of the many centuries of their existence, and in all probability brought to Chaldea by Abraham.


...you havn't a fucking clue what you are talking about. I might as well talk to my dog.

Is the fact that your user name rhymes with "Cock" just a coincidence I wonder?

Sorry, just a thought.


That's a bit rich coming from Cuntland...sorry Twuntland.

Just took a minute to have a web search...

"Compared with all the ancient monuments that refer to ethnographic issues - no other document is as comprehensive as the Bible. It is a real treasury of historical facts; in it we find the earliest historical data about many nations, among which the Macedonian nation has a significant place. At the very beginning (1 Moses 10:4), we find accounts of Macedonia, which point to the fact that the Macedonians have been known as an individual ethnic group since the earliest of times. The ethnographic chart in Chapter 10 of Genesis is an ethnographic document, and since it dates back to the time of Moses (15th-13th centuries B.C.), it supplies data about nations existing on our planet in even more distant times. Moses most probably composed the ethnographic chart on the basis of even older Jewish records written down in the course of the many centuries of their existence, and in all probability brought to Chaldea by Abraham.


...you havn't a fucking clue what you are talking about. I might as well talk to my dog.1 Moses?

God obviously delights in variety and beauty. :) Why is our sky a beautiful blue, but the sky on the moon black? Because God created this planet to be inhabited, and He wanted us to enjoy the beautiful colors here. Isaiah 45:18 says, "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED: I am the LORD; and there is none else." We are told by man that it is our atmosphere that takes the blue wave length of light and makes our sky look blue to us here. Why did He make the grass and leaves on the trees green? What about the clouds? Why did He make them white? Why did He make the bark on the trees brown? Why did He make the dirt brown? Why did He make the sunset red and orange? Why did He make the leaves turn yellow, orange and red before they fall off of the trees in the fall? Why did God make the rainbow a variety of colors all in one? Why is the foundation of the heavenly city New Jerusalem not going to be gray cement, but a dazzling array of a variety of gems? [COLOR=DarkRed]Revelation 21:18-21 "And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass." The answer to all of the above is that God loves beauty, and a variety of colors.
The same holds true of mankind which He created. From the two people which He created, He programmed into their genes an infinite variety of possibilities and colors. Some conceptions between two people would produce blond hair; others brunette; and others red. Revelation 1:13,14 "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. HIS HEAD AND HIS HAIRS WERE WHITE LIKE WOOL, AS WHITE AS SNOW; and his eyes were as a flame of fire."
But what do many people do when their hair starts to change color? They start dying it. Millions of people do not want gray, silver, or white hair, so they keep coloring it blonde, brunette, red, or a combination somewhere in between those colors but it would seem God would have us all to have white hair in the end! :confused:
Why do some people associate the color of the skin with the curse placed upon Ham and his descendants? You did not ask that question, but it is appropriate to answer it at this point, because that is why many people do question skin color in relation to Ham. Why are we not consistent with all of our "color differences" in the body?
Would that mean dark brown eyes part of the curse? Are light blue eyes more spiritual than dark brown? Are hazel eyes more spiritual than just green or just brown? Are any traits in the body that are "darker" (than what Adam and Eve had) automatically part of the curse? Where does it say in the Bible that the color of the skin was darkened on people as part of the curse? It never does say that.
If that was the case, then European people would be more spiritual than the Jews, because the Jews tend to be darker than the Germans. Remember what Hitler thought? He considered the Jews to be "less than pure" when compared to the lighter and fairer complexions of the Germans. So what was his idea? To kill all other people (darker than they, the Germans) and produce a "pure" race (of lighter and fairer complected people).
It is surprising how many Christians actually think that darker-skinned people are all under the curse of Ham, and are really less spiritual and less blessed of God than are fairer-skinned people. That attitude is not from God.
The races of black, yellow and red......when or how did God create them?He "created" those varieties of colors when He created Adam and Eve. That is when He "created" them.
When did God allow those colors to come out, flourish, and multiply? Perhaps with the dispersion at the Tower of Babel.
Genesis 11:1-9 says, "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth."
Those people were dispersed, of course, according to the language that God allowed them to speak and understand. God, in His wisdom, gave certain languages to certain people. He wanted certain people together, and those were the ones to whom He gave the same language. This also does not mean that some languages are "cursed languages" and others are not. If that was the case, then how could God have given the Old Testament in Hebrew, the New Testament in Greek, and do a world wide mission work mainly from English-speaking people today? Why would He not consistently use the "one approved language," and curse the others? Zephaniah 3:9 says, "For then will I turn to the people a PURE LANGUAGE, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent." You will notice that the context calls it a "pure language," because, finally, everyone will be able to understand and serve the Lord with the same language "with one consent."
When God gave certain languages to certain groups of people, he obviously did so by design. As those people were forced of necessity to associate with certain people (because they were the only ones with whom they could communicate) they then married within that small group, and their dominant colors and traits then came out. And those traits probably multiplied very rapidly when marrying others with the same dominant colors and traits.
Think of a family that you have seen with children that all have very distinctive features. Because of it, people quickly guess that they are of a certain family because of those distinctions. Maybe they have a very distinctively-shaped jaw, or a very distinctively- shaped nose, or very distinctive lips, or maybe it is something about the eyes that sets them off as a family.
Now suppose that you change that families’ language so that they cannot communicate with anyone else upon earth. You send them off to a region where they are alone, and they are forced to intermarry. Now, wait for several generations, and go visit them. What will you find? You will find a whole group of people that, although you can tell them apart, have very distinguishing features that lets you know in a moment that they all belong to the same group. They all have that same basic jaw shape. They all have that same basic nose. They all have that same basic complexion. They all have those same-shaped eyes, etc.
That is exactly what we see amongst the different races of the world. Is it just the color of the skin that sets off the Japanese from the Americans? No. The shape of their eyes is different. Is it just the skin color that sets off the African from the European? No. The European’s nose and lips will probably be thinner and smaller than the African’s. What about the Jew compared to the American Indian? Not only will their skin color not be the same, but the Jew’s cheek bones will probably not be as high as the Indian’s, nor will their eyes have the same shape and slant.
So the real question is not when did God create all of these colors and features, because He did so when He made Adam and Eve. In their genes they had all of these possible varieties. So when did God allow those colors to come out, flourish, and multiply? The answer, "Immediately following the Tower of Babel."
God had purpose and design in giving people who spoke different languages very distinctive features. For one thing, it has kept them basically apart for all of these centuries now (yes, different races do intermarry today, but it has not always been considered the normal practice). Man could have learned the languages of other nations, eventually, and could have been all one, big, rebellious family against God again — just like at the Tower of Babel. But when God separated them by language, He also allowed other features to quickly come out that would help to keep them apart. I think it has to do with God’s desire to keep the people’s of the earth somewhat separate from each other. Because God knows that when the earth gets all together, they will end up rebelling against Him.
That is exactly what is going to happen in the end time. There is going to be a "one world church," a "one world government," and a "one world philosophy" — all against God. It is going to be a world-united church against the one true way of salvation through Jesus Christ. It is going to be a world-united government that will stand up against the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. It will be a world-united philosophy that true Christians are "bad, narrow-minded, and the true problem upon earth."
The different races are intermarrying more and more today, but through the differences in language and distinctive features, God has kept them basically apart until their final day of worldwide union and rebellion against Him.
Ham wasn't black, so how could the race of Ham be black if he intermarried with a black? Wouldn't that be a diluted race?"
Again, God had all of the possible colors and features programmed into Adam and Eve’s genes. And as I said, I do not know that the curse upon Ham’s descendants has anything to do with skin color at all. And, as I said, it would not have been with Ham that the different races started, but with the rebellion at the Tower of Babel.

According to Webster’s Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary, "dilute" means "to diminish the strength, flavor, or brilliance of by admixture." If you want to talk about a point at which the different races were "diluted," then you are going to have to look at some point AFTER the Tower of Babel, when someone finally broke out of their group (meaning their group to which God had given a certain language and certain dominant physical characteristics) and intermarried with another group or race. I do not know how many years that was after the Tower of Babel, But those groups or races would have been "pure" until one of them intermarried with another group or race.

Ham really has very little to do with the "race" question, when dealt with from the Biblical perspective. In fact, the Bible refers to a group of people as being of "Ham," and their skin is not black at all, but very similar in complexion to the Jews. Psalm 105:23-27 "Israel also came into EGYPT, and Jacob sojourned in THE LAND OF HAM. And he increased his people greatly, and made them stronger than their enemies. He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtly with his servants. He sent Moses his servant, and Aaron whom he had chosen. They showed his signs among them, and wonders in THE LAND OF HAM." This passage calls Egypt, "the land of Ham." The Egyptians are not black-skinned, but just dark-complected. Some of them would be no darker than many Americans. So to say that Ham was black, or that all of his descendants are, is not true at all.
When it comes to skin color, I think it has more to do with the God-given ability to adapt to certain climates, and those people whom God sent to those places with certain dominant genes, to make it very pronounced. Where were the very dark-skinned people or races found (before man started hauling them out of their settling places, where they had been since the Tower of Babel)? The darkest-skinned people were found nearest the equator — in the hottest climates. Take a world map and find the equator on it. Look at Africa. Right above and below the equator is Nigeria, Zaire, Kenya, etc. What color is the skin of those people? Normally, very, dark. But look up to the top of Africa, and what countries do you see? Libya, Morocco, and Egypt. Those people are, for the most part, just dark-complected, not black. Look down into South Africa. There are so many white people there, that they had been the ruling class for many, many years.

Now follow the equator over to South America. It crosses through Brazil. Are the Brazilian’s black-skinned? No. We would probably say that they are mainly just dark-complected. But in some of the little countries just above Brazil, they do have a good number of black-skinned people. What is the difference? Temperature is the difference. Many of the South American countries have many mountainous regions, which, although they are close to the equator, the higher elevation would keep them cooler than the lower elevations that are near the equator.

What is the whole point? The darkest-skinned people are generally found in the hottest climates. God had, by design, people move to those hot locations (at the dispersing of the Tower of Babel) to whom He had seen fit to receive certain dominant genes that would help them be more comfortable there. Can you imagine a very light-skinned group of people moving to the very hot areas near the equator? :cool: What would happen? :confused: They would be burnt to a crisp all summer long. Some people burn a little when they first go out in the sun, but then tan, and eventually, can stay outside all day in the hottest sun. Why? Because God allows the skin to turn darker so that it does not burn. :) But some very light-skinned people can go out in the sun and burn one day, and then peel. They go out again, and the same things happens. They just do not seem to tan and get past that point. God did not send people to those areas which could not adapt to such climates. He sent people there with certain dominant genes who would adapt very well to such hot conditions, and their tendencies of very dark skin would serve them well in such hot, sunny climates. The further north or south you get away from the equator, the light-skinned people normally are.
So then God placed all of the possible skin colors and characteristics into Adam and Eve’s genes. When man multiplied upon the face of the earth after the flood, and became as one, man rebelled against God. To stop that rebellion, God confounded their language so that they could not understand each other. When He broke them down into smaller groups and they then married among themselves, He allowed certain things within their genes to come out in a dominant way. Those dominant traits would help them in two ways. First, it would help them to keep to their own group or race, and thus be less apt to get together and rebel against God again. And some of those dominant traits would help them be more comfortable in their climates where they settled. ;)



Yeah, sorry, I forgot about the "Because god said so" angle on things.

That's a bit rich coming from Cuntland...sorry Twuntland.

Aha, but mine is clearly a conscious choice of name (if you took the chance to read Roger Mellie's Profanisaurus, you would know that "Twunt" is an amalgamation of two seperate words).

Yours is clearly just a happy coincidence :o)

...you havn't a fucking clue what you are talking about. I might as well talk to my dog.

1 Moses? One minute websearch and you're an expert?

Aha, but mine is clearly a conscious choice of name (if you tokk the chance to read Roger Mellie's Profanisaurus, you would know that "Twunt" is an amalgamation of two seperate words).

Yours is clearly just a happy coninceidence :o)

I thought you were just being a Charlie

Yeah, sorry, I forgot about the "Because god said so" angle on things.
Sok, easy mistake to make considering most of the least spiritually educated folk prefer to learn the hard way. ;) However, I do think there is enough scientific and logical information here and abroad to help answer the question brought forth in this particular realm of discussion.

1 Moses? One minute websearch and you're an expert?

At no point did I profess to being an expert - I simply very easily found some info on the web that showed the folks that wrote the Bible were very aware of different ethnic groups as well as the people whjo wrote the Ramyana and many other ancient historians and they were not of the attitude

"people were just the colour they were, simple as that"

moron

Someone mentioned that the eye has to be perfect to work?

Well you see, the funny thing is that my eyes aren't perfect. I was like born with this, like, genetic problem. (Possibly stemming from inbreeding amoung the Noah's ark crew.) But, and this is an important but, I still see better with my imperfect eyes than I would without any eyes at all. So trust me on this, your eyes don't have to be perfect to work.

Someone mentioned that the eye has to be perfect to work?

Well you see, the funny thing is that my eyes aren't perfect. I was like born with this, like, genetic problem. (Possibly stemming from inbreeding amoung the Noah's ark crew.) But, and this is an important but, I still see better with my imperfect eyes than I would without any eyes at all. So trust me on this, your eyes don't have to be perfect to work.


That original post did make me laugh!

Someone mentioned that the eye has to be perfect to work?

Well you see, the funny thing is that my eyes aren't perfect. I was like born with this, like, genetic problem. (Possibly stemming from inbreeding amoung the Noah's ark crew.) But, and this is an important but, I still see better with my imperfect eyes than I would without any eyes at all. So trust me on this, your eyes don't have to be perfect to work.

Well, regarding not perfectly working eyes, you'll probably regard me for insane if i tell you that amphioxus and starfish have eyes. But, it's true, they have. And they perfectly serve their simple needs... :)

At no point did I profess to being an expert - I simply very easily found some info on the web that showed the folks that wrote the Bible were very aware of different ethnic groups as well as the people whjo wrote the Ramyana and many other ancient historians and they were not of the attitude

And how does quoting a book that does not exist in the Bible show this? Are you aware that neither nationality or ethnicity equals race?

You of course know that the Ramayana (which you make no effort to quote) was written in a different place, by different people, and that all this time we have been talking about those who wrote the Bible?


moron
No need to sign. It shows.

you'll probably regard me for insane if i tell you that amphioxus and starfish have eyes.

I don't think you're insane. Starfish got lots of eyes.

I'm trying to remember what an amphioxus is. My brain says it's a Mexican walking fish, but my brain doesn't always tell the truth.

Anyway, if a microsurgeon kept cutting out pieces of your eye, he could make your eye simpler and simpler. You'd still be able to see, but your vision would get worse and worse. But at every step you would still have some vision. So there would be no need to have a strange lump that would evolve into an eye later. That would be just silly.

First, where I'm coming from: I believe the Bible to be the inerrant, complete word of God. I trust it and believe it. My faith is confirmed by those Scientists with the current information that the Bible is wrong in some area, are often proved wrong with further findings (archaeology for example). It is also confirmed by an empty grave that Christ's many enemies would have certainly produced if Jesus had not raised as he predicted He would.

I also am amused at the beliefs of evolutionists (as evolutionists here have commented that they are amused at the beliefs of creationists), so at least we're all happy people here.

You see, my faith allows for the existence of a Creator God to start life. I do not believe in evolution, but for those of you who want to mock my beliefs for not believing in evolution, can you explain how we got all these different people (Mongloid, caucasian, Asian, white) from a ROCK?

Summary:
My religious belief = Creator God who has been from everlasting to everlasting created the life we now see.

Evolutionist religious belief = Even though it violates what we know about science, we're going to believe that all life formed from a rock (non-living thing). Correct me where I'm wrong, but my science text books always said something about it raining on the earth and creating this primordial soup from which all life sprang out. Even though the law of biogenesis states all life comes from life and no life can come from non-life. The evolutionist religious belief does not allow for the supernatural to intervene with this law of science, so who looks more silly now?

Lastly, I'm not interested in winning debate points. You have a choice if you are going to enter into a relationship with your creator or not. Using Pascal's wager, I urge you to consider the consequences of your decision:
If I wager to believe God exists and I believe in Him (and He does indeed exist) - then I have gained everything.
If I wager to believe that God exists and I believe in Him (and He doesn't exist after all) - then I have lost nothing.
If I wager to not believe that God exists so I don't believe in Him (and He really does exist) - then I have lost everything!

If you have really been created with an eternal soul, then making points on a debate board is nothing compared to forever. I beg you to continue searching it all out.

Lastly, I'm not interested in winning debate points. You have a choice if you are going to enter into a relationship with your creator or not. Using Pascal's wager, I urge you to consider the consequences of your decision:
If I wager to believe God exists and I believe in Him (and He does indeed exist) - then I have gained everything.
If I wager to believe that God exists and I believe in Him (and He doesn't exist after all) - then I have lost nothing.
If I wager to not believe that God exists so I don't believe in Him (and He really does exist) - then I have lost everything!

Very well said, friend!

Is the fact that your user name rhymes with "Cock" just a coincidence I wonder?

Sorry, just a thought.

Okay, didn't see that one coming at all...
you made me shoot coffee out of my nose.

it burns now :(

A lot of people seem to have confused evolution with adaptation. The different races of humanity are not proof for evolution, merely the flexibility of the human design.

I myself am so white that my friends universally describe me as an "Aryan bastard," yet if I were to move to the Congo, in several generations (and assuming no intermarrying with the natives), my descendants' skin would be as dark as those who've lived there for millennia. It's just a natural response to the prevailing physical conditions, in the same way that the hearts and lungs of those who live in the Andes are much bigger than normal to counter the thin air at high altitudes.