NationStates Jolt Archive

Sorry I dont have a link, but surely you have all heard of it. All those Afghan's outraged at the Quoran(Sp?) thing being flushed down the toilets. Yeah I can understand them getting angry, but look what they do. All over the Mid East there are people with American flags, charred ones. Now thats just as bad. Maybe they should stop and think about what they're doing before they get all Jihad on our ass.

Durka Durka Mohommed Jihad!

I agree. Why should they get so pissed at us when they've been burning flags and pictures of Americans for years. Zealots suck no matter what religion they subscribe to.

Even if they are being hypocritical, that doesnt make our disrespect acceptable.

Burning the American flag is a political statement against the US foreign policy.

Flushing the Koran is a non-political statement against the entire world's Muslim population.

Think about it.

Burning the American flag is a political statement against the US foreign policy.

Flushing the Koran is a non-political statement against the entire world's Muslim population.

Think about it.

Indeed.

Burning the American flag is a political statement against the US foreign policy.

Flushing the Koran is a non-political statement against the entire world's Muslim population.

Think about it.

I doubt that.. im preety sure alot of them just burn the flag cause they hate us to death

Question: why is it okay for Americans to burn the American flag, but not foreigners?

Question: why is it okay for Americans to burn the American flag, but not foreigners?

Americans burn their own flag? thats new information for me

Americans burn their own flag? thats new information for me

Yes. Really?

Yes! We live here--our soldiers fight for the right for US to burn OUR flags--not so that the other guy can.

...And I've used up my sarcasm for the day...

Burning the American flag is a political statement against the US foreign policy.

Flushing the Koran is a non-political statement against the entire world's Muslim population.

Think about it.


Well if that's the case how about you go ahead and strut yourself into one of their demonstrations and proclaim that you are an American. Even if you're not an American. Go ahead. Try it. We'd see real quick it isn't just policy they're demonstrating against.

Besides, they run their governments based on the Koran. So it's pretty close to the same thing.

For better or for worse, many of these Muslims take their faith VERY darn seriously, for their own reasons. Remember the saying 'Religion is the opium of the masses?'. A lot of these guys are simple folks for whom their faith is everything they have to hold on to in their lives, the hope of a better future or afterlife. Haven't you ever wanted something so badly, a woman, a job, a car? That's what this means to them and when the objects of that faith are destroyed or when their chances of attaining their objective are threatened... it's not the smartest thing to do, particularly when it has the government's 'stamp of approval'.

Cathenia

http://www.FreeMiniMacs.com/?r=15453397

FREE Mini-Macs! This is not a drill!

Referal spam is a bad thing.

Yes. Really?

This reminds me of the crazy bastard that tried to run into some important building in New York after 9/11 with a burning flag.... The guy was tackled down in seconds

This reminds me of the crazy bastard that tried to run into some important building in New York after 9/11 with a burning flag.... The guy was tackled down in seconds

You do know what the correct government approved way of disposing of a US flag is, don't you?

Burning the American flag is a political statement against the US foreign policy.

Flushing the Koran is a non-political statement against the entire world's Muslim population.

Think about it.

Maybe the Taliban should have thought about it before buring hundreds of them along with the library in Jalalabad, since almost all of the violence occurred among ex-Taliban protesters in Afghanistan.

Well if that's the case how about you go ahead and strut yourself into one of their demonstrations and proclaim that you are an American. Even if you're not an American. Go ahead. Try it. We'd see real quick it isn't just policy they're demonstrating against.


So what if it isn't JUST policy? That doesn't have any bearing on whether my statements were true. It's pretty hard to have your country invaded and not get a little angry at the nation doing it. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe if Iraq was occupying the USA, you'd be all happy about it.

Besides, they run their governments based on the Koran. So it's pretty close to the same thing.

Close =/= same.

You do know what the correct government approved way of disposing of a US flag is, don't you?

Come on.. theres a difference when the American Goverment burns the flag than an actual person doing it. If you see an everday american burn one of our flags down.... Im sure hese bound to get his ass kicked

Come on.. theres a difference when the American Goverment burns the flag than an actual person doing it. If you see an everday american burn one of our flags down.... Im sure hese bound to get his ass kicked

And is this right? The use of violence against a person exercising their rigths and breaking no laws?

And is this right? The use of violence against a person exercising their rigths and breaking no laws?

Yes it is right. if you want to exersice your right you do not go to the streets, it always results in some type of violence. You have a right to exsersice your rights, just to a point of course

THE COOLEST NAME IN ARABIC:

Achmed Ayeatollah Muhammend Bakir Al-Hakim!!!

Amazing!!

You do know what the correct government approved way of disposing of a US flag is, don't you?

As is burning the correct way to dispose of the Qu'ran. But I am fairly sure if there as a big Qu'ran burning held in the US by protesters, there would be outcry from the middle east.

So what if it isn't JUST policy? That doesn't have any bearing on whether my statements were true. It's pretty hard to have your country invaded and not get a little angry at the nation doing it. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe if Iraq was occupying the USA, you'd be all happy about it.


Krilliopollis:
And I'm not saying that anyone should've flushed their shitty little book. But you should never look a gift horse in the mouth. If I lived under a tyrant that hated two thirds of my people I'd probably welcome invasion but that's not the case is it. We could sit here and dream up all kinds of weird scenarios but that would just be wishful thinking, huh?


Close =/= same.
O.k. So what is equal then? Dragging dead dismembered Americans through the streets in a macbre parade? They've done shit like that before ya know?
Remember Somalia?

As is burning the correct way to dispose of the Qu'ran. But I am fairly sure if there as a big Qu'ran burning held in the US by protesters, there would be outcry from the middle east.

Indeed: but there wasn't the implication that the burning of the Koran was a thing which Muslims never do...

Americans burn their own flag?

I have to laugh at this

Yeah...Because torture is just so funny

Indeed: but there wasn't the implication that the burning of the Koran was a thing which Muslims never do...

You wanna bet? ask a normal person if Muslims burn the Koran and see what they say.. Ask an everyday american if its right to burn their flags and see what they say.

O.k. So what is equal then? Dragging dead dismembered Americans through the streets in a macbre parade? They've done shit like that before ya know?
Remember Somalia?

A little geography... Somalia is a different country you screwed with. Afghanistan is a different country.

Edit: Oh, you meant "they" as in "the rest of the world". Sorry.

A little geography... Somalia is a different country you screwed with. Afghanistan is a different country.

Edit: Oh, you meant "they" as in "the rest of the world". Sorry.

Yeah, public stonings, beheadings and firing squads at soccer matches, that's Afghanistan. That's also Iran and Saudi Arabia, but it's Afghanistan too. It's good to clear things up.

Yes it is right. if you want to exersice your right you do not go to the streets, it always results in some type of violence. You have a right to exsersice your rights, just to a point of course
So free speech is allowed, but only to a point. I suppose the government and other patriots such as yourself should decide this point?

Yeah, public stonings, beheadings and firing squads at soccer matches, that's Afghanistan. That's also Iran and Saudi Arabia, but it's Afghanistan too. It's good to clear things up.

Yeah...And crazy pine furniture that you can assemble with a really clever little key!
Remember Sweden anyone?


Geography is fun

Yeah...And crazy pine furniture that you can assemble with a really clever little key!
Remember Sweden anyone?


Geography is fun
Ikea is full of terrorist bastards.

Indeed: but there wasn't the implication that the burning of the Koran was a thing which Muslims never do...

Well according to the Economist last year, the Janjaweed have used the Qu'ran as toilet paper. So the flushing thing, also not so bad then.

You wanna bet? ask a normal person if Muslims burn the Koran and see what they say.. Ask an everyday american if its right to burn their flags and see what they say.

In order to have a level playing field here between Americans and their flag, the question should be asked to a Muslim concerning the Koran.

Well according to the Economist last year, the Janjaweed have used the Qu'ran as toilet paper. So the flushing thing, also not so bad then.

You and I both know that these things depend on context. The OP seemed to be arguing that it was okay to treat the Koran in a certain way (in order to offend Muslims) because the american flag had been treated in a certain way (in order to offend Americans).

Ikea is full of terrorist bastards.

You guys should invade Sweden and liberate all their furniture!

You guys should invade and liberate all their furniture!
We should form a coalition of the willing.

You and I both know that these things depend on context. The OP seemed to be arguing that it was okay to treat the Koran in a certain way (in order to offend Muslims) because the american flag had been treated in a certain way (in order to offend Americans).

Yes, but that doesn't seem unreasonable. Why is one acceptable, and not the other. Surely both are.

We should form a coalition of the willing.

The loot should be easy to transport to those who deserve it. Those unwilling asshat countries will just have to put up with regular clunky furniture.

Has the flushing claim actually been substantiated now? (A couple days ago it was claimed to be an unfounded rumour) I mean, I've never actually tried--so I can't be absolutely certain--but just how easy is it to flush a Qu'ran? Seems to me that even if you had a paperback copy, there'd be too many pages, causing a major clog.

Of course, if those ass-backwards third-worlders had plumbing, maybe they'd know that too. (/sarcasm)

Yes, but that doesn't seem unreasonable. Why is one acceptable, and not the other. Surely both are.

Well, one is viewed by most of its adherents as actually holy, whereas the other is revered (for want of a better word). One is the word of God channeled through man, whereas the other is an arbitrary symbolic object.

To burn a flag is to symbolically reject the symbolism of another nation, while to desecrate the holy text of a faith is to symbolically reject their very God.

Has the flushing claim actually been substantiated now? (A couple days ago it was claimed to be an unfounded rumour) I mean, I've never actually tried--so I can't be absolutely certain--but just how easy is it to flush a Qu'ran? Seems to me that even if you had a paperback copy, there'd be too many pages, causing a major clog.

Of course, if those ass-backwards third-worlders had plumbing, maybe they'd know that too. (/sarcasm)

The story hasn't moved since a week ago. Other than a claim by an ex-prisoner, there's no solid evidence. A claim from an ex-guard or commander would've been a big deal if it were true, but Newsweek's source apparently flubbed it.

The story hasn't moved since a week ago. Other than a claim by an ex-prisoner, there's no solid evidence. A claim from an ex-guard or commander would've been a big deal if it were true, but Newsweek's source apparently flubbed it.

Perhaps the guards are all too busy posing for photos with the prisoners?

Well, one is viewed by most of its adherents as actually holy, whereas the other is revered (for want of a better word). One is the word of God channeled through man, whereas the other is an arbitrary symbolic object.

To burn a flag is to symbolically reject the symbolism of another nation, while to desecrate the holy text of a faith is to symbolically reject their very God.

Yes, but that implies that desecrating something that is "holy" is necessarily worse than desecrating something that is revered. Insofar as the subjective feelings of both offended parties are concerned I don't think you can fairly make that case.

From an objective standpoint, both actions are meaningless. To view it otherwise, you would have to take "sides." (Either that flushing the Qu'ran is okay: because you are not a muslim, and therefore it is just a book/blasphemous; or, burning the flag is okay because it is not "holy".)

Yes, but that implies that desecrating something that is "holy" is necessarily worse than desecrating something that is revered. Insofar as the subjective feelings of both offended parties are concerned I don't think you can fairly make that case.

I think if were to imagine that instead of US flags, Christian Bibles were being burnt, then it is highly likely that a greater offense would have been taken, no?

From an objective standpoint, both actions are meaningless. To view it otherwise, you would have to take "sides." (Either that flushing the Qu'ran is okay: because you are not a muslim, and therefore it is just a book/blasphemous; or, burning the flag is okay because it is not "holy".)

Indeed: they are both just symbolic acts. However, they are acts which serve a double purpose: to offend those against you, and also to buoy your own spirits by showing yourself superior to their values.

Perhaps the guards are all too busy posing for photos with the prisoners?

That's Iraq. Cuba's a bit less chaotic, according to a friend of the family who works there. :)

In any case, the only prisoner ever to claim Koran desecration couldn't remember saying it in a follow-up interview apparently, or contradicted himself on the facts. They didn't give his claim much credit.

That's Iraq. Cuba's a bit less chaotic, according to a friend of the family who works there. :)

In any case, the only prisoner ever to claim Koran desecration couldn't remember saying it in a follow-up interview apparently, or contradicted himself on the facts. They didn't give his claim much credit.

What a coincidence, I have a friend who works there too and he says they rape the prisoners every day :rolleyes:

In any case, flushing books isn't what people should be worried about when it comes to the camp in Cuba.

In any case, flushing books isn't what people should be worried about when it comes to the camp in Cuba.

Not to some of the prisoners. Many of them were caught in Afghanistan, where getting the Koran dirty was a death penalty offense, and where the Taliban outlawed recycled paper because it might contain old copies of the Koran. To the guys caught in Afghanistan, messing with the Koran might be considered worse than a slap in the face, or spraying with a hose, or whatever else, which is why Newsweek's rumors were so serious, and why people were angry when Newsweek admitted failing to find supporting sources.

which is why Newsweek's rumors were so serious, and why people were angry when Newsweek admitted failing to find supporting sources.

Responsible media reporting. Gotta love it.
Can someone explain to me why, if this all started from some comment by one guy, who couldn't substantiate it later, and there were no supporting sources, why not only newsweek reported about it, but here in Australia, where I actively avoid watching tv and reading newspapers, I still heard about this story?

Is our worldwide media really so terrible that nobody bothers to check these things?

*depressed, and reminded why he avoids exposure to the media*

At any rate, I'd believe it's true. Someone could have thought it's a good idea to upset the prisoners. It would have worked. It's been done before.
The reason why it's a big deal to me is because it's disrespectful to a religion, not just one countries people.
Burning the American flag is only disrespectful to America (not that it makes it right)
Burning the Quoran(sp?) is disrespectful to every single muslim. As burning the bible would be disrespectful to every single christian.

Having said that, I'd much rather desecrate a holy book rather than a human being. But then I'm not such a religious person, and many would think otherwise.

I think if were to imagine that instead of US flags, Christian Bibles were being burnt, then it is highly likely that a greater offense would have been taken, no?

Not to an atheist. The US is not a mono-block of religion. The US government has also funded exhibitions including works of art such as Serrano's "piss christ" - generally without comment from the majority - so I think it is impossible to say that burning bibles is the most offensive thing you can do to the citizenry of the US in general.

In any case, if the internecine squabbles in the middle east have taught us anything, it is that nationalism also sometimes trumps religion over there too.
(As witnessed by the lack of interest in the arab world by the Janjaweed's activities with the Qu'ran).

Not to be anti-Islam or anything, but I have to wonder how many Christians would start rioting and burning villages, killing innocent bystanders in the process, if there was a report that the Saudi government destroyed Bibles.
Oh wait, they're already doing that, practicing Christianity is outlawed. My mistake.
And yet...nope, no rioting.
Don't get me wrong, I'm an atheist, and don't generally lean either way in religious debates between two religions, but this reaction seems just insane to me. I mean, let God do the punishing, don't screw your own countries in rioting over something here that only arguably happened.

Not to some of the prisoners. Many of them were caught in Afghanistan, where getting the Koran dirty was a death penalty offense, and where the Taliban outlawed recycled paper because it might contain old copies of the Koran. To the guys caught in Afghanistan, messing with the Koran might be considered worse than a slap in the face, or spraying with a hose, or whatever else, which is why Newsweek's rumors were so serious, and why people were angry when Newsweek admitted failing to find supporting sources.

The fact that everyone believes they're capable of all sort of horrible things is something the yanks should think about for a while.

Not to an atheist. The US is not a mono-block of religion. The US government has also funded exhibitions including works of art such as Serrano's "piss christ" - generally without comment from the majority - so I think it is impossible to say that burning bibles is the most offensive thing you can do to the citizenry of the US in general.

In any case, if the internecine squabbles in the middle east have taught us anything, it is that nationalism also sometimes trumps religion over there too.
(As witnessed by the lack of interest in the arab world by the Janjaweed's activities with the Qu'ran).
True.
But the US does take it's patriotism extremely seriously.
Here in australia we're very patriotic, too. But it's really not cool to show it. We have a culture of pretending that we're not patriotic.
So when we had our flags burnt in indonesia, really, nobody much cared. We cared about what was happening, but not about the flag.

I understand why Americans care about their flag being burnt. It's an insult, and since America is such a patriotic country, it takes that insult seriously. It really is a cultural thing.

And that's why we're really getting off the point when we discuss burning a symbol vs burning a religious icon, or the word of god, or whatever. The point is, if it's part of the culture, it will upset the people. Whether it be flag, paper, or god's word. The point is, both Americans and Iraqis did something respectful to upset members of the other country. Which is worse? We could argue that forever. To really find out, you need to understand each culture.

Not to be anti-Islam or anything, but I have to wonder how many Christians would start rioting and burning villages, killing innocent bystanders in the process, if there was a report that the Saudi government destroyed Bibles.
Oh wait, they're already doing that, practicing Christianity is outlawed. My mistake.
And yet...nope, no rioting.
Don't get me wrong, I'm an atheist, and don't generally lean either way in religious debates between two religions, but this reaction seems just insane to me. I mean, let God do the punishing, don't screw your own countries in rioting over something here that only arguably happened.
Yeah, it's a sad situation.
However, I don't think it's a religious issue. I think it's cultural.
Christianity certainly has had it's failings. It preaches love and acceptance, and yet there were the crusades, the inquisition, the witch trials. Not to throw history back in Christians faces (they have that happen enough from other people), just pointing out that even in a religion that preaches "love" there can still be hate.
Islam, incidentally, also preaches love and acceptance.

Christians don't tend to have riots about this stuff, you're right. I think that's because most of the christians are in civilized first-world countries, these days, and, generally, we're much better at finding peaceful, or at least legal, solutions. I think it has more to do with being brought up in a society where these other options *work*.

You point out riots, but I don't see any muslims here in Sydney rioting, either.

You will probably find that (just with the crusades), there are political reasons behind all this religious anger.

Having given the whole "it's not the religion, it's the society" speech, however, I do need to concede that there are some concepts, such as martyrdom, in islam that does lend the religion to this behavior. Conversion by the sword? Direct ticket into paradise if you die on a jihad? Yeah, those make it easier to turn the religion to destructive means. But they aren't *necessary* to turn the religion to destructive means, and they don't inherently make the religion evil or wrong.

Instead of complaining about the religion, I'm going to complain about stupid, violent, fanatical freaks. And that goes for all you other religions too. Expecially you zen people. I've got my eye on you, and the rest of the universe-with-which-you-are-one.

True.
But the US does take it's patriotism extremely seriously.
Here in australia we're very patriotic, too. But it's really not cool to show it. We have a culture of pretending that we're not patriotic.
So when we had our flags burnt in indonesia, really, nobody much cared. We cared about what was happening, but not about the flag.

I understand why Americans care about their flag being burnt. It's an insult, and since America is such a patriotic country, it takes that insult seriously. It really is a cultural thing.

And that's why we're really getting off the point when we discuss burning a symbol vs burning a religious icon, or the word of god, or whatever. The point is, if it's part of the culture, it will upset the people. Whether it be flag, paper, or god's word. The point is, both Americans and Iraqis did something respectful to upset members of the other country. Which is worse? We could argue that forever. To really find out, you need to understand each culture.

It's kinda different here in Australia... A decent proportion of the country want to change the flag!

It's kinda different here in Australia... A decent proportion of the country want to change the flag!
Heard the song "Jack off Australia" by Chris Franklin? (the guy who did "Bloke").
It's just great.

(Sung to the tune of Waltzing Matilda)
Jack off Australia,
Jack off Australia,
In every state, a mass debate,
so grab your pole and celebrate
who'll come and jack off Australia with me?

For those without the Aussie context, our flag has the union jack in the top left corner, and some people thought we should remove it, as we're no longer an english colony.
There was a big debate, all different designs for new flags, but in the end Australia's amazing apathy won out, and we didn't change anything.
That and the fact that we have no decent graphic designers. Heck, we're internationally famous for Ken Done! Sheesh.

Heard the song "Jack off Australia" by Chris Franklin? (the guy who did "Bloke").
It's just great.

(Sung to the tune of Waltzing Matilda)
Jack off Australia,
Jack off Australia,
In every state, a mass debate,
so grab your pole and celebrate
who'll come and jack off Australia with me?

For those without the Aussie context, our flag has the union jack in the top left corner, and some people thought we should remove it, as we're no longer an english colony.
There was a big debate, all different designs for new flags, but in the end Australia's amazing apathy won out, and we didn't change anything.
That and the fact that we have no decent graphic designers. Heck, we're internationally famous for Ken Done! Sheesh.


You should have got Rolf Harris to design the new flag. He's a dab hand with a brush he is.

I can imagine it now, a big kangaroo playing a didgeridoo, with a picture of Donald Bradman in the corner. Who wouldn't vote for that?

Not to an atheist. The US is not a mono-block of religion.

I was assuming a Christian american here, I thought that would be self-evident. An atheist of Muslim stock may be offended by the burning of a Koran, but likely less so than a true believer.

The US government has also funded exhibitions including works of art such as Serrano's "piss christ" - generally without comment from the majority - so I think it is impossible to say that burning bibles is the most offensive thing you can do to the citizenry of the US in general.

No, I wasn't trying to say that it was the most offensive thing that could be done, instead to try and draw a more telling parallel.

In any case, if the internecine squabbles in the middle east have taught us anything, it is that nationalism also sometimes trumps religion over there too.
(As witnessed by the lack of interest in the arab world by the Janjaweed's activities with the Qu'ran).

I guess the most straightforward way of dtermining whether one is more offensive than another is to ask a bunch of Muslim americans...

True.
But the US does take it's patriotism extremely seriously.
Here in australia we're very patriotic, too. But it's really not cool to show it. We have a culture of pretending that we're not patriotic.
So when we had our flags burnt in indonesia, really, nobody much cared. We cared about what was happening, but not about the flag.

I understand why Americans care about their flag being burnt. It's an insult, and since America is such a patriotic country, it takes that insult seriously. It really is a cultural thing.

And that's why we're really getting off the point when we discuss burning a symbol vs burning a religious icon, or the word of god, or whatever. The point is, if it's part of the culture, it will upset the people. Whether it be flag, paper, or god's word. The point is, both Americans and Iraqis did something respectful to upset members of the other country. Which is worse? We could argue that forever. To really find out, you need to understand each culture.
Bah There are Americans who get upset when flag are burned in protest but not many. For one we're used to it. Every time something bad happens here we get to see the news coverage of third world countries having a parade. Then again it's also free speech. And if we get excited about anything it's our freedom. Hell that's the reason why some people get upset about it. They think the hippies are throwing away one of life's greatest gifts.
Why on earth is it uncool to admit to patriotism?

I think it is important to understand what EXACTLY the Koran is, and why it is so much more offensive than burning a flag.

The Koran is often compared to the Bible...this isn't really accurate. Muslims believe that the Koran has always been with God. It is not just his word, it is a part of him. Rather than the Bible, it is closer to being like Christ. Desecrating the Koran is comprable to someone desecrating Jesus Himself.

While I don't agree with flag burning, it is a right Americans have themselves, and is the specified way to dispose of a flag.

Even if desecrating the flag and desecrating the Koran are comprable offences, does that make them right? "And eye for an eye leaves the who world blind"

Just because they do it doesn't mean we should. We are trying to look like the moral superiors, the "good guys". By doing the same acts as the "bad guys", we lose whatever level of respect we had.

I think it is important to understand what EXACTLY the Koran is, and why it is so much more offensive than burning a flag....

Just because they do it doesn't mean we should. We are trying to look like the moral superiors, the "good guys". By doing the same acts as the "bad guys", we lose whatever level of respect we had.
Maybe I missed something but as far as I America isn't in the habit of destroying the Koran. Other than the questionable Newsweek article. We've burnt quite a few Harry Potter books over the last few years and a few Huckfins now and then. But other people's Icons not so much.

I guess the most straightforward way of dtermining whether one is more offensive than another is to ask a bunch of Muslim americans...

And they would probably say the Qu'ran. However, they are not the group that the flag burning is aimed at.

But that goes back to my point, that in order to assess which is the most offensive, you have to take a side. You can't make these value judgments about which is worse, unless you subscribe to the view that the Qu'ran is actually holy or not. Likewise whether or not the American flag stands for something meaningful, or is just a piece of cloth.

And turn it on it's head.

In the US, any type of descration, be it the flag, the Qu'ran, the bible or copies of Harry Potter, is permitted. It is outside the purview of the government. Moreover, the US government as a matter of fundamental policy, accords the same respect to the Qu'ran as it does to the Bible, it's own flag, (and Harry Potter Books).

Therefore, flushing a Qu'ran is no more or less meaningful than anything else that may happen. In other words, the Qu'ran is being treated by the US no better or worse than any other "sacred cow" - Christian Bible included - and therefore there is no real reason to take offense at the US as a whole.

In the middle east, almost every type of freedom of expression is prohibited. Therefore, when the US flag is burned, it is specifically singled out by the society as a whole, and marked as unique. Essentially, the US flag is automatically officially reviled as a matter of policy. This is far more offensive, surely, as it is singling the US and its symbol, as especially worthy of contempt.

This actually reminds me of the whole Rushdie thing in England. Everyone was an apologist for the book burners then too.

I think it is important to understand what EXACTLY the Koran is, and why it is so much more offensive than burning a flag.

The Koran is often compared to the Bible...this isn't really accurate. Muslims believe that the Koran has always been with God. It is not just his word, it is a part of him. Rather than the Bible, it is closer to being like Christ. Desecrating the Koran is comprable to someone desecrating Jesus Himself.

While I don't agree with flag burning, it is a right Americans have themselves, and is the specified way to dispose of a flag.

Even if desecrating the flag and desecrating the Koran are comprable offences, does that make them right? "And eye for an eye leaves the who world blind"

Just because they do it doesn't mean we should. We are trying to look like the moral superiors, the "good guys". By doing the same acts as the "bad guys", we lose whatever level of respect we had.


No, it's just a book. You can choose to believe otherwise, but in the US, you cannot force anyone else to respect that position. I can buy a Qu'ran right now, do whatever the hell I want with it, and post it on the internet. And there is nothing that anyone can do. (Well, actually I would expect to be murdered by a bunch of savages - but I blame that on the pusilanimous government, and it doesn't make their actions right. Doubtless some people here would try and justify their actions).

And is this right? The use of violence against a person exercising their rigths and breaking no laws?
Someone could call your mom a whore. No laws broken and it is within their rights. What would you do? Don't try the hippie bs answer that you would turn around and walk off.

Someone could call your mom a whore. No laws broken and it is within their rights. What would you do? Don't try the hippie bs answer that you would turn around and walk off.
Um yea, walking away sounds about right. The whole mere word's thing here. Or sticks and stones, whatever. I'm no hippie I'm just a rational enough person not to hit people because they call some one names. (even Mom) Sersiously who does that?

No, it's just a book. You can choose to believe otherwise, but in the US, you cannot force anyone else to respect that position. I can buy a Qu'ran right now, do whatever the hell I want with it, and post it on the internet. And there is nothing that anyone can do. (Well, actually I would expect to be murdered by a bunch of savages - but I blame that on the pusilanimous government, and it doesn't make their actions right. Doubtless some people here would try and justify their actions).


sorry, I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been. What I meant to say was that Muslims view the Koran as being a part of God, and no (well, very few) Americans see the flag in such a high position.

What I was trying to show was the cultural reasoning behind the outrage...guess I kinda failed :( lol

Ah well...I'm not very "literate" right now, so I should probably just stop trying. Damn lack of sleep.

What I was trying to show was the cultural reasoning behind the outrage...guess I kinda failed :( lol

That's what I attempted, rather more clumsily, as well.
The act of burning the book can't be analised on its own. The response of the culture to the burning of the book is the significant point.

Despite being an atheist, I'd still be offended if someone burnt a bible. It just shows a lack of respect. Same thing with the book, and the american flag. They just happen to be symbols/objects that the culture in question values.

I was asked earlier why Australians think it's uncool to show patriotism? I don't know, it's just a cultural thing. We call it the "tall poppy syndrome", where it's, generally, seen as uncool to be too extremely excited about anything, and you don't show off if you are better than other people (including not showing off that you think your country is better).
You can be proud. Just not overly "aren't we great" proud. People here often act almost embarassed if they are the best/richest/etc. in a social situation.

It's one of the reasons why we (sometimes) find (some) Americans obnoxious. Not because of anything the Americans are innately doing, but because they often feel it's quite fine to say "Yeah, I came top of my class, and it was really difficult but I'm just so smart". Here, we'd still mention it. Australians are no less vain, and like credit just as much as everyone else. But we'd probably try to downplay it, instead. "Oh, I came top of the class. Yeah, I'm proud, but it wasn't such a big achievement, really. I guess it was mostly luck" and wait for our friends to say "no, you totally earnt it. You're just so smart".
*shrug* weird cultural thing, I guess.

Not to an atheist. The US is not a mono-block of religion. The US government has also funded exhibitions including works of art such as Serrano's "piss christ" - generally without comment from the majority - so I think it is impossible to say that burning bibles is the most offensive thing you can do to the citizenry of the US in general.

In any case, if the internecine squabbles in the middle east have taught us anything, it is that nationalism also sometimes trumps religion over there too.
(As witnessed by the lack of interest in the arab world by the Janjaweed's activities with the Qu'ran).

I had to comment, the point is burning the US flag will only offend US citizens, burning/abusing a religious book/symbol will offend all of that religion, in any country.
There are a greater number of muslims world wide than US citizens.

Also I have to agree with Earths Orbit, the way US citizens crow over thier achivements is seen as ungracious by UK citizens.
Hey that means their still closer relacted to us in ideology than to the US :)
*walks away whistling "waltzing matilda"*

I had to comment, the point is burning the US flag will only offend US citizens, burning/abusing a religious book/symbol will offend all of that religion, in any country.
There are a greater number of muslims world wide than US citizens.

Also I have to agree with Earths Orbit, the way US citizens crow over thier achivements is seen as ungracious by UK citizens.
Hey that means their still closer relacted to us in ideology than to the US :)
*walks away whistling "waltzing matilda"*
No the point is that it won't offend very many US citizens. And we don't kill over it.
and
Uh huh, It's great to be great. My culture rocks! :eek: :) :eek:

Flag-burning is almost common where I'm from. People burn US flags in the SF Bay Area (but probably mostly Berkeley) for all kinds of reasons. It used to be just for true anti-government sentiment, but even 15 years ago was being done almost just to get attention. I've seen a flag burning myself, when I was quite small. I was shocked at the time, but you kind of get used to it. There are even people that say "I burn the American flag because in America I have the freedom to express myself politically. Isn't America a great country".

Sorry I dont have a link, but surely you have all heard of it. All those Afghan's outraged at the Quoran(Sp?) thing being flushed down the toilets. Yeah I can understand them getting angry, but look what they do. All over the Mid East there are people with American flags, charred ones. Now thats just as bad. Maybe they should stop and think about what they're doing before they get all Jihad on our ass.

Imagine after decades of hardship, torture and lord only knows what else they get pissed off at the desecration of the only thing they had to keep them going. Silly people.

I had to comment, the point is burning the US flag will only offend US citizens, burning/abusing a religious book/symbol will offend all of that religion, in any country.
There are a greater number of muslims world wide than US citizens.

Also I have to agree with Earths Orbit, the way US citizens crow over thier achivements is seen as ungracious by UK citizens.
Hey that means their still closer relacted to us in ideology than to the US :)
*walks away whistling "waltzing matilda"*

Ah, so it's only offensive if it offends over a billion people. Well I am glad you cleared that up. Let the persecution of the jews begin. :rolleyes:

Imagine after decades of hardship, torture and lord only knows what else they get pissed off at the desecration of the only thing they had to keep them going. Silly people.

They'll never get out of their pit until they make the leap from fundamentalism to secularism. As such, the sooner they learn to get over the desecration of the Qu'ran the better.

They'll never get out of their pit until they make the leap from fundamentalism to secularism. As such, the sooner they learn to get over the desecration of the Qu'ran the better.

The Qu'ran is a symbol of their whole culture! C'mon. I'd be seriously upset if some wanker would desecrate the symbol of my culture - especially if he is the same guy who probably just tortured me the other day.

Burning the American flag is a political statement against the US foreign policy.

Flushing the Koran is a non-political statement against the entire world's Muslim population.

Think about it.

So it's okay to hate an entire country, but not a religion?

Someone could call your mom a whore. No laws broken and it is within their rights. What would you do? Don't try the hippie bs answer that you would turn around and walk off.

WWJD?

And is this right? The use of violence against a person exercising their rigths and breaking no laws?


Here in the US, they are allowed to burn the flag. The only thing they might violate is littering, breach of peace, open flame where none is allowed. The actual statement of hatred toward the US is not a crime though.

Nor should be flushing a book. Even if it actually happened. People lie in wait for reasons to justify hatred and violence. Even an unfounded rumour pushes the simple,hateful mind over the edge.
I dont like to see people burning my flag, but I realize its an expression defended by that very flag.
And given the same mentality of burning things sacred to others, they could be far more people burning and flushing books-Qu rans (sp?)- than have or will ever burn a US flag.

The Qu'ran is a symbol of their whole culture! C'mon. I'd be seriously upset if some wanker would desecrate the symbol of my culture - especially if he is the same guy who probably just tortured me the other day.

You see, and that is just it. In the US, not only does the the government allow the desecration of culture, it sometimes even pays to display it. People have to learn that if there is going to be free speech, things are going to be said and done that are deeply deeply offensive to them, and there is nothing they can do about it other than grin and bear it.

Muslims have a history of violently opposing free speech. Often extra-legally. Until they learn that these things are going to happen and they should just shrug it off, there will continue to be problems.

Frankly, I find killing a film maker in Holland for his opinions far more troubling than any amount of Qu'ran flushing.

And in any case, muslims aren't even persecuted, quite the opposite.

Burning a flag is much different from burning the Koran. Koran is like a Bible, based on a religious belief of Muslims. It makes a religious argument, not a political one. Flags have been burned before, even by Americans. Why is it such a big deal for someone else to do it?

Burning a flag is much different from burning the Koran. Koran is like a Bible, based on a religious belief of Muslims. It makes a religious argument, not a political one. Flags have been burned before, even by Americans. Why is it such a big deal for someone else to do it?

Burning a Koran is much different from burning the flag. The flag is the symbol of a nation, based on the free beliefs of it’s citizens. It makes a political statement, not a religious one. Churches and Bibles have been burned before, even by Muslims. Why is it such a big deal for someone else to do it?

NB: Especially with terrorists using Mosques as centers of operations. :rolleyes:

Someone could call your mom a whore. No laws broken and it is within their rights. What would you do? Don't try the hippie bs answer that you would turn around and walk off.

If it is the case that she is not a whore, that this fact can be proved, and there is a record of someone calling my mother a whore, then I could actually take them to a court of law on grounds of slander..


A case of a sledgehammer to crack a nut, yes, but I still could do this: unless my mother is in fact a whore people do not have a right to make such defamatory statements.

I think if were to imagine that instead of US flags, Christian Bibles were being burnt, then it is highly likely that a greater offense would have been taken, no?

I was thinking of it this way as well.
I may not believe in their religion, I have my own, but I would still not do such a thing. I would be pissed if someone did it to mine. It is just flat out disrepectful. But, that is what the world is all about now. Not caring for your fellow human beings, just caring about you and what you want. Anger and hate rule this world. :(

You see, and that is just it. In the US, not only does the the government allow the desecration of culture, it sometimes even pays to display it. People have to learn that if there is going to be free speech, things are going to be said and done that are deeply deeply offensive to them, and there is nothing they can do about it other than grin and bear it.

I agree. Besides, "free speech" doesn't really exist, i.e. one may speak freely in the USA up to a point, but a hate speech against a particular group is still a crime. I sympathize with both sides here - I'm a Christian in Canada, and I'd be pretty angry if I heard about somebody flushing the Bible down the toilet. However, I wouldn't go all "crusades" on the person or group that I believe perpetrated the incident.

Then again, I'm Canadian, and we're used to taking it up the ass, since we won't stand up against our thieving, lying government o' scum. :rolleyes:

If it is the case that she is not a whore, that this fact can be proved, and there is a record of someone calling my mother a whore, then I could actually take them to a court of law on grounds of slander..
A case of a sledgehammer to crack a nut, yes, but I still could do this: unless my mother is in fact a whore people do not have a right to make such defamatory statements.

But you would have the right to waste valuable court time with frivolous lawsuits, while murderers are still running free. :p

But you would have the right to waste valuable court time with frivolous lawsuits, while murderers are still running free. :p

A civil action such as this would not be heard in the same kind of court as where a murderer would be tried (except in those very rare cases where a civil action is brought against one).

But you would have the right to waste valuable court time with frivolous lawsuits, while murderers are still running free. :p


It wouldnt matter if my mother was a whore or not.

If someone called my mother a whore to her in person, I would punch them in the mouth.

If someone told me my mother was a whore, I'd return the favor.

It wouldnt matter if my mother was a whore or not.

If someone called my mother a whore to her in person, I would punch them in the mouth.

If someone told me my mother was a whore, I'd return the favor.

It's surprising how few people understand that.

It's surprising how few people understand that.


Its fairly clear to my way of thinking.

Between the fundamentalism,blindness and lack of open-mindness in the Korna na din the mind of anyone who reelected Bush, see the Koran as hard core deperate poetry and flush Bush down the toilet.

Between the fundamentalism,blindness and lack of open-mindness in the Korna na din the mind of anyone who reelected Bush, see the Koran as hard core deperate poetry and flush Bush down the toilet.


yeah-I know....uh-What?

Between the fundamentalism,blindness and lack of open-mindness in the Korna or in the mind of anyone who reelected Bush, see the Koran as hard core desperate poetry,read between the lines and flush American flags down the toilet.

But you would have the right to waste valuable court time with frivolous lawsuits, while murderers are still running free. :p



Yes-this is a total waste of time. People used to be settle differences without police, lawyers and courts.
Maybe the fear of getting punched in the mouth would make people act a bit more responsibly. In this day and age, everyone is so worried about being sued, they cant be men anymore. It actually encourages stupid people to act stupid.

Between the fundamentalism,blindness and lack of open-mindness in the Korna or in the mind of anyone who reelected Bush, see the Koran as hard core desperate poetry,read between the lines and flush American flags down the toilet.


I dont know where the hell your point is, but I voted for President Bush twice.
Now part of me would love to call the media and go out and burn a Koran on the news. See what type of response that would get here.
But I dont really have time to protest or destroy something thats important-sacred-to other people. Nor do the millions like me that voted for the President-we are TOO BUSY WORKING AND BUILDING OUR FUTURES AND OUR FAMILIES FUTURES TO WORRY ABOUT DESTROYING THINGS.

So-keep rolling in the dust, making believe my way of life oppresses you and yours.

Something that a lot of people don't understand.

If you're a Salafist, there's only one way to see the world. Dar al-Islam, which is the territory you're on that is ruled by a radical variant of Sunni Islam, and subject to a strict interpretation of the Sharia -

and then there's the rest of the world. Which is full of non-Muslims. Who can be used to help you fight, or who can be enslaved to help you fight, or who you can sign temporary truces with while you fight other non-Muslims.

But you are obligated to fight and kill, until the whole world is dar al-Islam. If you take a moment's rest, you are committing a grave sin.

To a Salafist, even the Shias are non-Muslims. And the only people a Salafist wants to kill more than a typical non-Muslim is a Jew.

So keep thinking that American "mistreatment" of Islamic religion and Arabic culture is the root cause of the problem. It's not.

Point of fact - any Islamic group that subscribes to the tenets laid down by Zangi during the First Crusade (all Salafists), want to kill us all - by any means necessary.

If you're not one of them, that includes you, even if you're not an American. They can make a temporary truce with you while they fight America, but if they win, you're next. And at that point, nothing you say will talk them out of it.

Between the fundamentalism,blindness and lack of open-mindness in the Korna or in the mind of anyone who reelected Bush, see the Koran as hard core desperate poetry,read between the lines and flush American flags down the toilet.

...still waiting for an Islamic apology for destroying the Buddas in Afghanistan. It's been four years now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1214456.stm

Before:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1580000/images/_1581411_buddhapic300.jpg

After:
http://www.jsenglish.com/newsfold/2001/033-4bL.jpg

...toleration is a two way street, Sound Mind.

So it's okay to hate an entire country, but not a religion?
Well, it's not really ok to hate a country, but at least the flag burning was a somewhat focused act. The Muslim extremists object to the American government's actions, so they burn the symbol of that government - this is a fairly clear way of expressing themselves.

Burning the Koran, on the other hand, is an insult to all Muslim's, even those who have done nothing to us. It's even an insult to American Muslims!

The only way I could see justifying burning the Koran as a symbolic act is if you believe that Islam as a whole is responsible for the acts you despise.

To be more concise: burning the flag is an insult to the American government, burning the Koran is an insult to Islam as a whole. The American government has in fact done things which the flag burners object to; only small extremist groups within the Muslim faith have done anything to us.

The two acts just aren't equivalent.

It wouldnt matter if my mother was a whore or not.

Assume, for the moment that she is...

If someone called my mother a whore to her in person, I would punch them in the mouth.

So your reaction on someone stating the truth is to assault them?

Assume, for the moment that she is...



So your reaction on someone stating the truth is to assault them?

No-its not that cut and dry.

Making that statement to my mother, even if it were true, is an attack itself. Its deliberately looking for a negative response. And I would respond with violence. I dont care if its right or wrong by law or societie's standards. Its wrong to my standards. I would judge, then punish, all in one.

I dont care if its right or wrong by law or societie's standards. Its wrong to my standards. I would judge, then punish, all in one.

Does the word 'sociopath' mean anything to you?

Does the word 'sociopath' mean anything to you?


Sociopath?
In the same token, I wouldnt approach someone or their mother and tell them they were a whore, even if I had concrete proof of it being tru in my hand. It isnt necessary, unless, of course, you are looking for a hostile confrontation. I act in a responsible manner. I'm not aggressive toward neighbors or strangers and dont expect them to be so towards me. Or those in my care.
So-maybe the REAL sociopath would be the one trying his luck at calling someone's mom a whore. He would get away with it if he called your mom a whore. Maybe this would encourage him. Maybe he would become more emboldened and up the ante with more aggressive verbal expression or maybe even actions. then he could run into me and try out his little song and dance routine. He would have an awfully rude awakening.

Sorry I dont pass your hypothetical litmus test. I get along fine with most people-even a lot of douchebags. I'm pretty well liked amongst those that know me-family,friends, neighbor,business,church, scouts..etc. So no, I dont really fit the sociopath definition.

Maybe he would become more emboldened and up the ante with more aggressive verbal expression or maybe even actions. then he could run into me and try out his little song and dance routine. He would have an awfully rude awakening.

So in the end your individual morality is exercised on the world through your strong arm?

So in the end your individual morality is exercised on the world through your strong arm?

If he's a yank, one could argue that he's allready doing it...

ThreeThreeThree']If he's a yank, one could argue that he's allready doing it...

Now, now, less of that.

Now, now, less of that.

Or you'll invade his country?

Or you'll invade his country?

???

???

it was a lousy joke.
Nevermind...

it was a lousy joke.
Nevermind...

Ah: were you labouring under the misapprehension that I was an american?

Ah: were you labouring under the misapprehension that I was an american?

Yeah...A terrible mistake

Burning the American flag is a political statement against the US foreign policy.

Flushing the Koran is a non-political statement against the entire world's Muslim population.

Think about it.

Either that or it's just a simple science experiment to find out how easily a book can be flushed down a toilet...

So in the end your individual morality is exercised on the world through your strong arm?


We didnt get past sociopath yet. Who is the sociopath?

You know what's ironic? The muslims were protesting against the US for something the US didn't even do. The korans were flushed by the prisoners. It was either to clog their toilets in protest or to cause the rioting we saw in Islamic nations. The newspaper that published the story has now withdrawn the story, saying they only thought it was true when the government didn't show up to tell them that it was not. The truth was, the government was investigating it at the time. Now, don't those protesters look stupid. I bet some have changed their excuses for burnint the flag.

what u all are missing is that the "koran flushed in toilet" story was in newsweek for 11 days and nothing happened. surely newsweek must have been read in atleast some muslim countries, but we have no protests until a cricket player-turned-politician of pakistan called Imran Khan calls a press meeting and shows the newsweek story and stirs up this issue. then it is taken up by the assorted mullahs of political parties in pakistan who do not want to concede the "savior of islam" space to others and the story does the rounds in the madrassahs and mosques and end result is what we see now.

The funny thing is Imran khan became deeply religious after he was cuckolded by Hugh Grant who screwed around with Jemima goldsmith , the britsh born (now ex) wife of Imran khan.

the link below shows the hypocrisy behind the whole ruckes.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=5642&R=C5592C705

Dissing the Koran

While Islamist fanatics and ignorant Westerners sow panic over the alleged desecration of a Koran at Guantanamo Bay, no one mentions a startling fact: When it comes to destruction of the Koran, there's no question who the world champion is--the government of Saudi Arabia.

The Saudi state religion is the primitive and austere Wahhabi version of Islam, which defines many traditional Islamic practices as idolatrous. Notably, the state bans the importation of Korans published elsewhere. When foreign pilgrims arrive at the Saudi border by the millions for the annual journey to Mecca, what happens to the non-Saudi Korans they are carrying? The border guards confiscate them, to be shredded, pulped, or burned. Beautiful bindings and fine paper are viewed as a particular provocation--all are destroyed. (This on top of the spiritual vandalism the Saudis perpetrate, by inserting anti-Jewish and anti-Christian squibs into the Korans they publish in foreign languages, as Stephen Schwartz documented in our issue of September 27, 2004.)

This behavior isn't a recent innovation, by the way. Here's an account of how the Saudis carried on when they seized the city of Taif in 1802. It's taken from an unimpeachable Islamic source, the compilation Advice for the Muslim, edited by the Turkish scholar Hilmi Isik and published by Hakikat Kitabevi in Istanbul:

The Wahhabis tore up the copies of the Koran . . . and other Islamic books they took from libraries, mosques and houses, and threw them down on the ground. They made sandals from the gold-gilded leather covers of the Koran and other books and wore them on their filthy feet. There were verses of the Koran and other sacred writings on those leather covers. The pages of those valuable books thrown around were so numerous that there was no space to step in the streets of Taif. . . . The Wahhabi bandits, who were gathered from the deserts for looting and who did not know the Koran, tore up all the copies they found and stamped on them. Only three copies of the Koran were saved from the plunder of a major town, Taif.

No wonder anti-Wahhabi Muslims say "the Saudis print the Koran to destroy it." They print it and they destroy it in a daily desecration that makes Newsweek's retracted Guantanamo allegation look trivial by comparison.

We didnt get past sociopath yet. Who is the sociopath?

Those who exercise their individual moral code on the rest of society through use of violence.

Well, it's not really ok to hate a country, but at least the flag burning was a somewhat focused act. The Muslim extremists object to the American government's actions, so they burn the symbol of that government - this is a fairly clear way of expressing themselves.

Burning the Koran, on the other hand, is an insult to all Muslim's, even those who have done nothing to us. It's even an insult to American Muslims!

The only way I could see justifying burning the Koran as a symbolic act is if you believe that Islam as a whole is responsible for the acts you despise.


BTW, who is at war with whom? If america is at war with all muslims, koranburning is more understandable. Also, if america would like to be at war with all muslims, koranburning is very understandable. Does footage showing koranflushing in high national security prisons get published without gov. consent? Hard to believe. Then again, mr. bin laden is still on the loose. That is hardly an intentional mistake, is it?

Assume, for the moment that she is...



So your reaction on someone stating the truth is to assault them?


So it's okay to call someone a faggot, as long as they actually are a faggot?

So it's okay to call someone a faggot, as long as they actually are a faggot?

Would it be better to lie and call them a breeder?

what u all are missing is that the "koran flushed in toilet" story was in newsweek for 11 days and nothing happened. surely newsweek must have been read in atleast some muslim countries, but we have no protests until a cricket player-turned-politician of pakistan called Imran Khan calls a press meeting and shows the newsweek story and stirs up this issue. then it is taken up by the assorted mullahs of political parties in pakistan who do not want to concede the "savior of islam" space to others and the story does the rounds in the madrassahs and mosques and end result is what we see now.

The funny thing is Imran khan became deeply religious after he was cuckolded by Hugh Grant who screwed around with Jemima goldsmith , the britsh born (now ex) wife of Imran khan.

the link below shows the hypocrisy behind the whole ruckes.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=5642&R=C5592C705

I've seen the Muslim anti-Christian propaganda and I know a lot of people who have been to the Middle Eastern Islamic states and can either not celebrate even Christmas or have had worse things happen to them.

But does it mean that so-called 'Christian' America should approve of this? Why not take the moral high ground and condemn it?

And the secular America should condemn it because it not only stirs up hatred for America throughout the Muslim world - and a good number of predominantly Muslim nations are American ALLIES - but for the sake of American muslims who are not as some may think, all 'camel jockeys' (racist term that SOME people use) but African-Americans (does anyone remember Malcolm X?)

Maharlikana

Someone could call your mom a whore. No laws broken and it is within their rights. What would you do? Don't try the hippie bs answer that you would turn around and walk off.

I'd politely correct them.

My mother is not a whore. She is a nasty bitch.

;)

So it's okay to hate an entire country, but not a religion?

Are you asking me for permission to hate? Uh, go for it.

It's legal pretty much anywhere... though increasingly less so in the US.

I don't care who you hate, I don't care who sounds like a nazi talking about exterminating cockroaches or rats, people are free to make asses of themselves and my only obligation is to laugh when appropriate.

I would say, however, that a country, such as a representative democracy, should be held more broadly accountable for it's actions, than members of a religion for the actions of some of it's fanatics. No Muslims I know of voted for Al Queda, or had the chance. Democracies, if we are to take them at least partially as seriously as they claim, consist more of the public will than in organized religion, which is governed always by the few with only the tithing, not necessarily approval and especially not election, of the general followers.

Those who exercise their individual moral code on the rest of society through use of violence.


No my friend, not "on the rest of society". Only on the misfits that would go out of their way to act in an aggressive and unnaceptable manner. Thats all.
And its hardly and "individual moral code"- I think a very healthy number of people feel the same way I do.
You are quite adept in your manipulation of a hypothetical scenario to minimize someone's opinion though.

my question is, how are you supposed to flush the kuran down the toliet?

my question is, how are you supposed to flush the kuran down the toliet?


You cant. Its a bullshit story, spun by people who love strife and actually profit from it. There was a media lull and no money to be as the war got a little boring. So, someone got creative. They are scumbags, just like the people who were waiting for a reason to riot and kill are scumbags.

Would it be better to lie and call them a breeder?

One does not exclude the other.

You do know what the correct government approved way of disposing of a US flag is, don't you?

I do believe it is burning it. I think that has to be changed though.

my question is, how are you supposed to flush the kuran down the toliet?

I would assume that ingesting the Koran would be neccesary, first...

I would assume that ingesting the Koran would be neccesary, first...

lol

maybe it was a pocket Koran!

I do believe it is burning it. I think that has to be changed though.

Why?

lol

maybe it was a pocket Koran!

Those are just appetizers... :)

Torahs are kosher, so they're okay. I don't recommend the Bible. It has a violent, firey end. :eek: