NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.thedigitalcourier.com/content/articles/2005/05/24/news/news01.jpg

FOREST CITY -- A sign in front of a Baptist church on one of the most traveled highways in the county stirred controversy over religious tolerance and first-amendment rights this weekend.

A sign in front of Danieltown Baptist Church, located at 2361 U.S. 221 south reads "The Koran needs to be flushed," and the Rev. Creighton Lovelace, pastor of the church, is not apologizing for the display.
full text (http://www.thedigitalcourier.com/articles/2005/05/24/news/news01.txt)

:headbang:

http://www.thedigitalcourier.com/content/articles/2005/05/24/news/news01.jpg


full text (http://www.thedigitalcourier.com/articles/2005/05/24/news/news01.txt)

:headbang:

What's the problem?

I think the fact that it's on one of those portable "Doc's Rent-a-Sign" things is funny.

Just posted on this as well--pretty retarded, if you ask me.

What's the problem?

Yeah, seriously. Freedom of Speech, people. No matter how stupid it is, they have the right to say it.

Yeah, seriously. Freedom of Speech, people. No matter how stupid it is, they have the right to say it.
Exactly. But that doesn't mean we can't Happy Slap'em!
Man I love that phrase

Yeah, seriously. Freedom of Speech, people. No matter how stupid it is, they have the right to say it.
Agreed, but the "Doc's Rent-a-Sign" part is still pretty funny in my opinion.

Yeah, seriously. Freedom of Speech, people. No matter how stupid it is, they have the right to say it.

Correct, I could rent sign advertising my 2' cock, and stating that I'm the true messiah, and that your religion sucks. You may not agree with it, but tough titties.

Exactly. But that doesn't mean we can't Happy Slap'em!
Man I love that phrase

Where in the Bill o' Rights are you allowed to "Happy Slap'em"?

Reverend Lovelace? Anyone getting any Simpsons vibes here?

Reverend Lovelace? Anyone getting any Simpsons vibes here?

...Nope. Can't say that I am.

Reverend Lovelace? Anyone getting any Simpsons vibes here?


I had a 'Deep Throat' vibe.

It's Christians like THAT who give Christianity a bad name.

http://www.thedigitalcourier.com/articles/2005/05/24/news/news01.txt

Heaven help me I don't belong to the 'church' which that Fascist runs.

Maharlikana

What's the problem?

This guy is an idiot after all the broohaha over the Newsweek screw up.
And sure, he's got the absolute right to put it up and keep it up - as long as it's either his property or the church's property (and they agree to it). Just as I can states he's being stupid and harmful for doing so.

Maharlikana, that's excatly right. And it further blackens the good name of the US. It might help if other USAians and Christians would speak out.

Yeah, seriously. Freedom of Speech, people. No matter how stupid it is, they have the right to say it.

Where did I say he didn't? I'm just saying he's being stupid by possibly further damaging the reputation of the US in the eyes of Muslims.

Where did I say he didn't? I'm just saying he's being stupid by possibly further damaging the reputation of the US in the eyes of Muslims.

I say freedom of speech and secularism trumps concern over the muslim worlds feelings. I would hate to think that we could get to a point where we start to censor because of "religious feelings".

At any rate, the muslim world is full of shit. The Janjaweed (arab militia) have been defiling the Koran in sudan for well over a year, and they didn't give a shit. Whatever the US does, it is going to be scrutinized as a pretext to condemn it.

And, given the attitude of the muslim world towards freedom of expression in the west since at least the 1980s, it is apparently they that need to do some rethinking, not us.

Did he even think that there are loyal Muslims serving in the US Armed Forces? I utterly hate these so-called Christians who are more like Hitler than Christ. All throughout Church history it's guys like this who have PERVERTED, not just diluted but PERVERTED the beauty and truth and humanity of the message of Christ and I won't be surprised when this 'Christian' has to answer for the souls of potential Muslim converts that were LOST because of his heartlessness. Other than that, it just ticks the Muslims off. That's no mean thing. The Muslim world has, historically, been very fragmented - take a look at the crusades, at the Arab rising of WW1 at Iran and Iraq in the 1980's. Tribe against Tribe, Sunni against Shiite. But all it takes is someone like Reynald de Chatillon (see Kingdom of Heaven - based on a true story of the Battle of the Horns of Hattin) to seriously tick off ALL of them and unite them - and when they have a powerful leader like Saladin, it's Christian butt which will get seriously kicked.

That man is endangering national security. Something like that is going to get some nice young American soldier killed today.

Maharlikana

Where did I say he didn't? I'm just saying he's being stupid by possibly further damaging the reputation of the US in the eyes of Muslims.


Seriously, the camels' back was broken years ago. You think some cracker putting up that stuff is going to blow up our relationships with the
A-rab world?

Tribe against Tribe, Sunni against Shiite. But all it takes is someone like Reynald de Chatillon (see Kingdom of Heaven - based on a true story of the Battle of the Horns of Hattin) to seriously tick off ALL of them and unite them - and when they have a powerful leader like Saladin, it's Christian butt which will get seriously kicked.

That man is endangering national security. Something like that is going to get some nice young American soldier killed today.

Maharlikana

The muslim world is going to kick the Christian worlds' butt? Ok, give me a break. Their armies are pathetic. Look how we utterly destroyed the Iraqi army in GW1. It was a turkey shoot. Their leadership sucks and so do their field commanders. Israel could beat most of the muslim world in a non-nuke war.

Yeah, seriously. Freedom of Speech, people. No matter how stupid it is, they have the right to say it.
They have a right to say it … same right I am using to criticize it

They obviously wanted some reaction putting it on a sign and all

I say freedom of speech and secularism trumps concern over the muslim worlds feelings. I would hate to think that we could get to a point where we start to censor because of "religious feelings".

For the third time, I'm not calling for censorship, but pointing out that someone is being stupid.
(Did you even read what I said? How many times will I need to say I'm not calling for this to be censored. :headbang: )

You really think the reputation can get any worse?

You really think the reputation can get any worse?
The reputation of what?

They have a right to say it … same right I am using to criticize it

They obviously wanted some reaction putting it on a sign and all

Bingo. When will people learn the difference between criticism and censorship? :headbang:

You really think the reputation can get any worse?

Yes, much, much, much worse.

Yes, much, much, much worse.

There is something worse than "great satan"?

Muslims are always threatening that the US's reputation will get worse. It's an empty threat, as most key figures in the middle east make their living condemning the US. What are they going to do, double condemn us? As I said before, when they start to condemnt the janjaweed, I may listen. Until then, these are empty threats and promises.

Not that I totally disagree with the sentiment on the message board Rev. Lovelace had posted, but the best way to deal with his "message" is to ignore it. The more everyone talks about it, the more free publicity that he and his church gets. He is entitled to his right to free speech, same as anyone in this country. Even to say something utterly stupid and indefensible. The more outraged you all get, the more he wins. Simple as that.

I'm out.

Would it be better if he said to burn the koran instead?

Would it be better if he said to burn the koran instead?
Not really

Not really


What about pooping and ejaculating on the koran?

What about pooping and ejaculating on the koran?
Nope again not really

Nope again not really


Damn. What fun things can I do as a concerned citizen with the koran?

I've gots to know!

Damn. What fun things can I do as a concerned citizen with the koran?

I've gots to know!
You can do anything you want I’m just saying in my opinion none of them are really “better” (at least that you have listed so far)

Not really

That's how you are supposed to get rid of them, by burning. It's the approved method.

That's how you are supposed to get rid of them, by burning. It's the approved method.
But burning by a non believer ... I have a feeling intent makes a difference

That's how you are supposed to get rid of them, by burning. It's the approved method.

Cool, can we have a big bonfire at night with martial music, and marching with torches, and topless frau's.

But burning by a non believer ... I have a feeling intent makes a difference


The funny thing is that they say only a muslim can touch the koran, but what about all of the people who are involved in making and delivering and stocking them. Are they all muslims, no infidels at all?

But burning by a non believer ... I have a feeling intent makes a difference

I gather that, which is why I always feed my used Qu'ran to the pigs, out of respect for muslims.

Did you know, that Barnes and Nobles stocks the Qu'ran, and that those same copies are handled by people who are unclean - and sometimes even by women during their menses!!!!111!!!11 (And without a hijab I may add). Shocking and disgraceful.

The funny thing is that they say only a muslim can touch the koran, but what about all of the people who are involved in making and delivering and stocking them. Are they all muslims, no infidels at all?
I’m not sure of the actual rules regarding contact with or printing of Koran’s I would assume most of them are in fact done by Muslims (though now with packing as it is you are not really in contact with it in the shipping process)

There is something worse than "great satan"?

Sure there is. Start flushing Korans down the toilet on prime time TV. Make sure it's broadcast on al-Jazeera. What result would you expect?

Muslims are always threatening that the US's reputation will get worse. It's an empty threat, as most key figures in the middle east make their living condemning the US. What are they going to do, double condemn us? As I said before, when they start to condemnt the janjaweed, I may listen. Until then, these are empty threats and promises.

http://www.iran-daily.com/1383/2147/html/dotcoms.htm#25059
Need to End Sudan Suffering
Arab solidarity should not blind us to what is going on in Sudan. Atrocities should not be condoned just because the perpetrators are Arab brothers in Sudan.

I gather that, which is why I always feed my used Qu'ran to the pigs, out of respect for muslims.

Did you know, that Barnes and Nobles stocks the Qu'ran, and that those same copies are handled by people who are unclean - and sometimes even by women during their menses!!!!111!!!11 (And without a hijab I may add). Shocking and disgraceful.
Very possible but while It does violate their code I am pretty sure it is not an intentional insult rather American consumerism at work (the good the bad and the ugly)

Let's get a new TV show going:

First it'll be hosted by Cheney (as he is the evil emperor), and every week, he'll have some various religions' holy book and flush it down the drain on prime time. Plus Dick will then kick the corresponding religious person and maybe even a puppy. First religion to riot and kill at least 100 of their own followers wins a NEW CAR!!! (http://www.twodolla.org/old/CBS%20Daytime%20%20The%20Price%20Is%20Right.jpg)

Come on down!

Sure there is. Start flushing Korans down the toilet on prime time TV. Make sure it's broadcast on al-Jazeera. What result would you expect?



http://www.iran-daily.com/1383/2147/html/dotcoms.htm#25059

Yah, the Janjaweed have systematically defiled the Qu'ran - literally wiped their arses with its pages - and destroyed non-arab mosques. Yet the extent of the outrage is "Atrocities should not be condoned just because the perpetrators are Arab brothers in Sudan." Followed by an apologia in respect of the Khartoum government (which backhandedly implies the US -or at least the west - is behind the whole thing anyway). Hardly a condemnation. Where are the riots, where are the fatwah, where are the calls for the death penalty? Why has the muslim world not united and demanded that Khartoum administration investigate this fully and punish the offenders. (Because it is easier to blame the west for the "weapons pipeline" to the rebels).

At any rate the muslim world has to learn that just as it is perfectly acceptable to hang a picture of Mary smeared in elephant dung, or a crucifix dipped in piss, in a government funded art museum in the west, so to is it perfectly okay to "defile" the Qu'ran. Until they make that intellectual leap, there can be no common ground between Islamic society and secular nations.

The funny thing is that they say only a muslim can touch the koran, but what about all of the people who are involved in making and delivering and stocking them. Are they all muslims, no infidels at all?

If only Muslims can touch the Koran, why have I been given a copy on two different occassions by Muslims who knew I was not? And why are there many sites giving them away specifically to non-Muslims?

http://www.freekoran.com/form.php
This free service is provided for non-muslim visitors. If you are already a muslim, please contact your local mosque for a copy of Koran.

One should certainly handle it respectfully, that's just good manners.

Maybe that rule refers to consecrated or a Mosque's copy of the Qu'ran?

Maybe that rule refers to consecrated or a Mosque's copy of the Qu'ran?

It's possibly confusion over rules for Muslims handling the Koran.

However note this:
When one fears that a Qur'an may burn, get soaked, that a non-Muslim may touch it, or that it may come into contact with some filth, then one must pick it up if there is no safe place for it, even if one is not in the state of wudu or is in need of the obligatory bath, though performing the dry ablution (tayummum) is required if possible.
http://www.sunnah.org/sources/ulumquran/conditions_of_handling_quran.htm

Here's some more on the question: http://slate.msn.com/id/2118920/

That says the only Koranic statement on the subject is "None shall touch but those who are clean" (Sura 56).

So, I'd say it seems to be a matter of respectfull manners.

I find it funny that he is willing to flush big parts of the old testament down the drain... The Koran, like the Bible, is based on Judaism, and contains Genesis, among other things.

"Our creed as a Christian, or a Protestant, or a Baptist church -- of course we don't have a creed but the bible -- but we do have the Baptist faith and message that says that we should cling to the 66 books of the Holy Bible and any other book outside of that claiming to know the way of God or claiming to be God's word is automatically written off and is trying to defeat people from the way of true righteousness inside of our viewpoint in how we view the word of God," Lovelace said.

I find it funny that he is willing to flush big parts of the old testament down the drain... The Koran, like the Bible, is based on Judaism, and contains Genesis, among other things.

Not to mention the recognition of Jesus ("Isa").

Well I'm glad I'm not part of THAT church... reminds me of my uncle's 'neo-nazi' style Christian church in California (they officially refer to themselves as Baptists). That wretched place nearly broke my faith and I'm pretty sure it turned a lot of people away or even destroyed the faith of others. Pastor's ex-military I think so he thinks that he has the right to dictate to others. The worst memory I have of that horrible place is one sunday morning, my dear old grandma and I are sitting in the pews and some kids are outside making noise, playing or something. Pastor Hitler* turns to a deacon, "Brother Himmler*, please tell those boys to leave immediately or I'll call the police. I'll charge them with causing a public disturbance in front of a house of worship."

Last I heard we were welcoming the youth into church or maybe I just belong to a different faith. That shocked me to the roots. Then later on during my stay he sits me down for a milkshake and tells me in so many words that all these big Christian organizations (Billy Graham, et al) are faking things, that the Bible (NIV) I read is bunk and whoop de doo I'm not a Christian after all.

It affected me profoundly and I nearly 'lost my faith' afterwards if not for a Bible believing and LOVING Christian church back home who shepherded me through that dark time. I know I've not kept to the straight and narrow very well since then but all I can say is if I'm not saved into THAT church, Hallelujah!! He is WELCOME to it.

Cathenia

* not his real name of course.