NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/germany_state_election

This appears today out of the blue. So much attention has been paid to the French elections instead that I didn't even know there was one going on in Germany.

I'm no follower of German politics but this seems a bit odd. As I understand it, the conservatives have picked up more seats, but not a majority? Aren't German conservatives a whole diferent thing that the US group of the same name? What are they? What is their vision for Germany? Why is the liberal party in decline?

Not making sence, mayby our german players can enlighten us all a bit?

The French aren't having an election. They are preparing to vote in their referendum on the EU constitution.

German Chancellor Schröder is going to call an early national election after his party lost control of its stronghold German länder Nordrhein-Westfalen. The German Social Democrats had been the government in that region for the last 39 years, and they lost by more than expected to the CDU. It's worth to note that this region has the largest population of any German länder, with nearly/more than 20% of the population (well, so SVT reported this evening anyway...)

Who would have guessed we'd get a new chancellor this year. Well, I just hope miss Merkel will keep Turkey out of the EU in favor of a privileged partnership as she has promised to do.
Cause chances that Schröder would win are very low.

Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder called Sunday for early elections this fall — a year ahead of time — after his party suffered a crushing defeat in Germany's most populous region, saying he lost the mandate he needs to fix the country's struggling economy.
Admitting he lost a mandate? Can you imagine any American politician with such humility?

Admitting he lost a mandate? Can you imagine any American politician with such humility?

Mandate? What was his presumed madate which he lost? Why did he lose it? What is the 'new' mandate?

C'mon don't keep me in the dark! : )

Not realy suprising. NRW was the last state which was still ruled by the red-green coalition. The SPD only still participates in Schleswig-Holstein in the state government. As a junior partner to the Christian Democrats. Thank god the greens are finally out of every state government. And come this fall they will be out of the federal government as well.

Standard operating procedure for Germany:

Step 1: Hold elections.
Step 2: ??
Step 3: Invade Poland.

Mandate? What was his presumed madate which he lost? Why did he lose it? What is the 'new' mandate?

C'mon don't keep me in the dark! : )

He didn't really lose a mandate as such... I don't know how much you know about the German system of government, it is rather different from the US

Just imagine the German "Laender" as states within a federation (largely, they are). What happend was an election within one of these Laender, and Schroeder's party lost by more than they expected. This doesn't really have to much influence on the German geovernment itself, but elections in the Laender arre normally seen as some sort of barometer for the next general election. And it doesn't look to good for Schroeder's party there (they are the SPD, social party, slightly left wing).
The troubling part is that this was populationwise the biggest of all Laenders and traditionally a stronghold of the SPD....

I left Germany a few years ago so I'm not going to vote on anything. Given a choice between Schroeder and Merkel wouldn't be worth while anyway

Standard operating procedure for Germany:

Step 1: Hold elections.
Step 2: ??
Step 3: Invade Poland.

If you take a look around Germany today, you will find that Poland has started a silent invasion... ;)

If you take a look around Germany today, you will find that Poland has started a silent invasion... ;)

Shhhh!! :D

Not realy suprising. NRW was the last state which was still ruled by the red-green coalition. The SPD only still participates in Schleswig-Holstein in the state government. As a junior partner to the Christian Democrats. Thank god the greens are finally out of every state government. And come this fall they will be out of the federal government as well.
Why the anti-Green sentiment?

Why the anti-Green sentiment?
Because they are a walking, talking catastrophe. For example, and this is my opinion, they want to shut down all nuclear plants in favor of alternative energy sources. Problem only is those alternative sources are not enough to cover the demand for power. Which costs thousands of jobs. Or Joschka Fischers Visa-erlass. This mainly was about immigrants from the Ucraine. But you can bet he told the embassies the same or was going to. Meaning that the embassies should give anyone without checking a visa for Germany. If in doubt let them enter the country. As a result for ten years criminals could enter the country without any trouble. There even was a blooming black market with the visas. Not to mention the forced prostitution that went along with it. And those are only 2 examples from the top of my head.

Because they are a walking, talking catastrophe. For example, and this is my opinion, they want to shut down all nuclear plants in favor of alternative energy sources. Problem only is those alternative sources are not enough to cover the demand for power. Which costs thousands of jobs. Or Joschka Fischers Visa-erlass. This mainly was about immigrants from the Ucraine. But you can bet he told the embassies the same or was going to. Meaning that the embassies should give anyone without checking a visa for Germany. If in doubt let them enter the country. As a result for ten years criminals could enter the country without any trouble. There even was a blooming black market with the visas. Not to mention the forced prostitution that went along with it. And those are only 2 examples from the top of my head.
Ah. I've read that Fischer has seemingly done everything he can to ruin his poster-boy image. We don't tend to hear about any other Green over here.

Nuclear plants - well, now you've taken this unfortunate route it's hard to back out without enormous consequences, especially in terms of job losses. Given that Germany's economy is going down the toilet, the Greens' argument appears to be a non-starter.

You actually have a party called the Christian Democrats. Dear oh dear.

Why do you oppose Turkey joining the EU?

Maybe 'cause Turkey is maybe not exactly a European country?

It's called European Union, not 'Eurasian Union' or something.

What comes next after that, EU membership for Israel and Iraq? :D

Not realy suprising. NRW was the last state which was still ruled by the red-green coalition. The SPD only still participates in Schleswig-Holstein in the state government. As a junior partner to the Christian Democrats. Thank god the greens are finally out of every state government. And come this fall they will be out of the federal government as well.

Won't that upset a lot of the Germans on this forum (excluding you)?

They were joking on National Public Radio this morning that Bush could invade France now, and Germany would be OK with that.

Won't that upset a lot of the Germans on this forum (excluding you)?

They were joking on National Public Radio this morning that Bush could invade France now, and Germany would be OK with that.

Yeah, France and Germany have century-long vendetta with each other, too! :D

Ah. I've read that Fischer has seemingly done everything he can to ruin his poster-boy image. We don't tend to hear about any other Green over here.
Well, hge is the foreign secretary. So thats to be expected.

Nuclear plants - well, now you've taken this unfortunate route it's hard to back out without enormous consequences, especially in terms of job losses. Given that Germany's economy is going down the toilet, the Greens' argument appears to be a non-starter.
After the news of the red-green loss in NRW the stocks of the biggests energy suppliers RWE and E.ON and some others went up by more then 2%. And I doubt it will be that hard to walk away from the mess the greens created. If thats what they will do. Since most nuclear powerplants haven't been shut down yet. Just on paper.

You actually have a party called the Christian Democrats. Dear oh dear.
Why the dear oh dear?

Why do you oppose Turkey joining the EU?
Cause they aren't a European country. But thats not the topic here. And there have been other threads, with dozens of pages, dedicated to this subject. If your interested you'll have to dig through the archives.

The SPD only still participates in Schleswig-Holstein in the state government. .

Yes?
Whats with:
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern? (SPD-PDS)
Bremen (SPD-CDU)
Brandenburg (SPD-CDU)
Berlin (SPD-PDS)
Rheinland-Pfalz (SPD-FDP)
Sachsen (CDU-SPD)
-?

Because they are a walking, talking catastrophe. For example, and this is my opinion, they want to shut down all nuclear plants in favor of alternative energy sources. Problem only is those alternative sources are not enough to cover the demand for power.

Neither can nuclear reactors. Not for more than a few decades at any rate - uranium is a finite resource.

You actually have a party called the Christian Democrats. Dear oh dear.

Multiple European countries have. Contrary to the US the influential christian parties usually tend to the center-left of the political spectrum - though it would be more accurate to say they are a seperate category.
"Democrats" in Europe by the way are generally far more left wing than those in the USA.

Won't that upset a lot of the Germans on this forum (excluding you)?
Would what upset them?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/germany_state_electionI'm no follower of German politics but this seems a bit odd. As I understand it, the conservatives have picked up more seats, but not a majority? Aren't German conservatives a whole diferent thing that the US group of the same name? What are they? What is their vision for Germany? Why is the liberal party in decline?
The german liberals are in decline because they openly favour the upper echolons of society and thus dont represent the common man anymore. Dont confuse them with american liberals, to the FDP liberalism only applies to the market.
The conservatives (CDU) will rule NRW, the state they now won, because they have a majority together with the FDP. Absolute majorities are rather uncommon in Germany, most governments are blocks.
The CDU are very different from the american conservatives. They are center right here, but they would be center to right-wing democrats in the US. The GOP is off our scale for parties actually represented in federal parliament, evn if the CSU, the more right, bavarian, subparty of the CDU might find some paralells.

With all due respect Schröeder is communist scum, allowing turks to work in our territory, for god's sake look at Düsseldorf almost the whole population is foreign....

God i don't like seeing my country go to the dogs like that

With all due respect Schröeder is communist scum, allowing turks to work in our territory,

Man.
The turks where originally invited to work in germany in the friggin 50ies. Nothing to do with Schröder.

And the claim that he is a communist is quite insane.

With all due respect Schröeder is communist scum, allowing turks to work in our territory, for god's sake look at Düsseldorf almost the whole population is foreign....

God i don't like seeing my country go to the dogs like that
With no respect, you are an uninformed right-wing asshole and i would rather have two turks for every wanker of your sort.

Man.
The turks where originally invited to work in germany in the friggin 50ies. Nothing to do with Schröder.
Actually it was the '60's. In the '50's it where Spaniards, Italians and Yugoslavs.

And the claim that he is a communist is quite insane.
I was about to say that.

The SPD still participates in the state governments of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Brandenburg, Bremen, Sachsen, Berlin and Rheinland-Pfalz! The Greens are still in most of the state governments.
Where did you get your information from?
I admit I was a bit hasty about the SPD. But the greens? No I was not.
http://www.election.de/ltw.html
Only NRW shows up as a red-green coalition. And as we know that info is outdated.

I would be careful about what you are saying about the Turks, though. Think about they try to white-wash their history in respect for that Genocide they commited on the Armenians 90 years ago.

To make a parallel, isn't holocaust denial a crime in Germany?

Would what upset them?
I got the impression a fair number of Germans on this forum liked the Greens.

I would be careful about what you are saying about the Turks, though. Think about they try to white-wash their history in respect for that Genocide they commited on the Armenians 90 years ago.

To make a parallel, isn't holocaust denial a crime in Germany?
Not if your Turkish. Your cultural background is taken into consideration.

I got the impression a fair number of Germans on this forum liked the Greens.
Well, thats their problem.

Why the 'dear oh dear'? Religion in politics. Bad, in my opinion. I'm somewhat surprised to see who's leading the CDP; I thought Stoiber (?) was destined for victory - though that's based on at least two-years-old knowledge...

I'll leave the Turkey debate for another time...

I got the impression a fair number of Germans on this forum liked the Greens.

They are quite popular among the young voters.

If you take a look around Germany today, you will find that Poland has started a silent invasion... ;)

Let me guess... they're on horseback, using rocks and sticks as primary weapons?

They are quite popular among the young voters.

They generally are among those with no concept of how money works or what is required for a strong economy.

hehe

either that, or those with little concern for either.

Neither can nuclear reactors. Not for more than a few decades at any rate - uranium is a finite resource.


Think you would have to make that centuries, but not sure. Still this is not the problem here. It is just that nobody really wants to take the trash coming out of those powerplants, which certainly will remain for some centuries.
So I guess you have to look for some alternatives, don't you?

And to the greens, here is an interesting article about some kind of internet fee, we are about to get in 2007, an the only party, that opposed this were the greens:
GEZ... (http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20115/1.html)
Any party has its drawbacks, so. What disturbs me most with the greens is them opposing the Transrapid :(
It is just all the others are even worse...

And on the new elections, it is really quite unrealistic the current government will be reelected, and after all what would be the point of it at all? The Bundesrat (populated by the Länder) would still be dominated by allmost 2/3 by the opposition...
If the CDU gets to build the government, we would probably get the first female chancellor :D
Still none of the womens I personally know would vote for her. Even my sister who studies physics, like Merkel did, is not going to vote for her. She is just to unsympathic...
But I do not think it will get any better after the government changes. Perhaps some of the decisions will be adapted more quickly (Bundestag and Bundesrat being in the same hands) question is if those decisions will be the right ones :(
We will see :D

Why the 'dear oh dear'? Religion in politics. Bad, in my opinion. I'm somewhat surprised to see who's leading the CDP; I thought Stoiber (?) was destined for victory - though that's based on at least two-years-old knowledge...
Stoiber is the head of the Bavarian CSU. The Christian Social Union. Angela Merkel is leading the CDU.

Stoiber is the head of the Bavarian CSU. The Christian Social Union. Angela Merkel is leading the CDU.
Ohhhh, I remember now. Sorry, I think I was confusing national and regional politics.

EDIT: and oops - CDU, not CDP. Duh.

Why the 'dear oh dear'? Religion in politics. Bad, in my opinion. I'm somewhat surprised to see who's leading the CDP; I thought Stoiber (?) was destined for victory - though that's based on at least two-years-old knowledge...

I'll leave the Turkey debate for another time...

I'd be careful with Stoiber. He's not very popular amongst his eastern neighbours, especially with the Czech Republic (he's been hostile to them 'cause they kicked out german civilians after WWII :D ).

Concerning the reason he lost, who wants to vote for a weird, lederhosen-wearing Bavarian! :D

For those with a lack of understanding about this I will attempt to explain. Firstly this is NOT a result for the entire country but a local one in North Rhine Westphalia. The shock has been that Schroder's party (Social Democrats) have lost considerably badly to the Christian Democrats whose vote went up by 7.8%. The Social Democrat vote went down by 5.7%. This is significent because it is SDP heartland and so Schroders position looks very week at the moment, particually with the country in such disarray. Recently the German health system has had to begin charging 10 Euro's for its patients to see GP's.

This mainly was about immigrants from the Ucraine. But you can bet he told the embassies the same or was going to. Meaning that the embassies should give anyone without checking a visa for Germany. If in doubt let them enter the country. As a result for ten years criminals could enter the country without any trouble. There even was a blooming black market with the visas. Not to mention the forced prostitution that went along with it. And those are only 2 examples from the top of my head.

1. "without checking" is simply wrong, as you say yourself in the next sentence.
"if in doubt" is correct.
2. "For ten years"? Well, er, but the red-green government has been in power for only 7 years by now.
3. Other examples?

Why the 'dear oh dear'? Religion in politics. Bad, in my opinion. I'm somewhat surprised to see who's leading the CDP; I thought Stoiber (?) was destined for victory - though that's based on at least two-years-old knowledge...


Compared to the republicans in the USA there near to none religion left in the politics here, as far as I can see...
There are some issues, but that is not necesseraly a point of the name of the party.

Compared to the republicans in the USA there near to none religion left in the politics here, as far as I can see...
There are some issues, but that is not necesseraly a point of the name of the party.

I still think that if they had won the election, Germany would be fighting loyally at the side of the US in Iraq and elsewhere... :D

They generally are among those with no concept of how money works or what is required for a strong economy.


Well, as far as the polution of the environment is concerned, you are quite right.
But what is the point of having much money, if the complete environment is destroyed.
As far as other topics are concerned: The Greens (here in Germany) tend to be more liberal than the Social Democrats...

What disturbs me most with the greens is them opposing the Transrapid :(
The Transrapid, as planned for the Rhein-Ruhr track would an economic absurdity. More than a billion Euro for a gain of twelve to fifteen minutes on the whole distance? Face it, the train does stop to often on that particular stretch, because its one big sprawls with lots of citiy centres that all would have to be served. Absolute nonsense. Sure, it carries prestige, but the economic balance is horrible. The second track, Munich airport to city would be more reasonable but is too short for a real reference object. Freiburg/Stuttgart would be a good idea. Long enough, would bring Freiburg out of the railroad-desert status it has and it could be extended to Strassbourg, bringing in France.

I still think that if they had won the election, Germany would be fighting loyally at the side of the US in Iraq and elsewhere... :D

elsewhere?
We (Germans) still have troops in Afghanistan, for instance.

1. "without checking" is simply wrong, as you say yourself in the next sentence.
"if in doubt" is correct.
Without checking is correct. It was the result of the within doubt.
2. "For ten years"? Well, er, but the red-green government has been in power for only 7 years by now.
It started slowly under Kohl and became an outright catastrophe under red-green.
3. Other examples?
Another one, and this is strictly personal, is Jürgen Trittihn. A minister who proudly tells on TV he never have and never will sing the national anthem should be tared and feathered and chased out of the country. Cause he has no business in such a high government position. For more examples check the variouse German political discussion forums.

I still think that if they had won the election, Germany would be fighting loyally at the side of the US in Iraq and elsewhere... :D
To true, considering Merkel even went to the USA to apologize and make clear not every german was thinking like the government :eek:
Quite weird, never heard of any politican doing something like this before. And there was this letter of some ministers, too...

I think this is one of the points, which make this woman just unelectable for most people I know... :D

By the way, I realise that my nation name might be causing some consternation for the Germans here, on account of it being a horrible mangling of the language. It's a typo. It should be 'wertewandel' ('mutation of values'), with no 's'.

I hang my head in shame...

Recently the German health system has had to begin charging 10 Euro's for its patients to see GP's.
To be exact, ten euros once per quadrimester.

Well, I'm not up enough on German politics to know who is to blame for the current economic stagnation.

Well, I'm not up enough on German politics to know who is to blame for the current economic stagnation.

I blame the unions. Germany and France need a good dose of Thatcherism about now

Well, I'm not up enough on German politics to know who is to blame for the current economic stagnation.

That's easy: their reunification. They'd also never have become so foul-mouthed without it.

I blame the unions. Germany and France need a good dose of Thatcherism about now

Fortunately, you're not a German.

Another one, and this is strictly personal, is Jürgen Trittihn. A minister who proudly tells on TV he never have and never will sing the national anthem should be tared and feathered and chased out of the country. Cause he has no business in such a high government position. For more examples check the variouse German political discussion forums.
Well that is true for the most politicans, as far as I can see. There are no "good" ones in the current opposition either....
There were some, but have been turned away :(
Seems to me you have to be some kind of idiot to get somewhere :D
Personally in the moment I dislike Schily the most...
He should have stayed with the RAF :sniper:

Just to sad!

RAF? :confused:

Without checking is correct. It was the result of the within doubt.

No, it was too easy for criminals to enter, but it is not as though no one was checked.

It started slowly under Kohl and became an outright catastrophe under red-green.

An outright catastrophe? Well, it also had positive effects. Less bureaucracy
and moreover no one had to stay out without a reason. Thats freedom.
And it is not as though Germany collapsed.

Another one, and this is strictly personal, is Jürgen Trittihn. A minister who proudly tells on TV he never have and never will sing the national anthem should be tared and feathered and chased out of the country. Cause he has no business in such a high government position.
Guess you vote DVU? Or even Rep. or NPD?

RAF? :confused:
Red Army Fraction, terrorists. Schily defended them as attorney in court. Nothing wrong with that. But I think he is now on the extreme opposite and about to deny as many civilrights as possible... :eek:

Red Army Fraction, terrorists. Schily defended them as attorney in court. Nothing wrong with that. But I think he is now on the extreme opposite and about to deny as many civilrights as possible... :eek:

Oh i see... terrorists! Now, if George W. Bush would know that.... :D

(note: i was thinking of Royal Air Force at first, hence i was confused ;))

Think you would have to make that centuries, but not sure. Still this is not the problem here. It is just that nobody really wants to take the trash coming out of those powerplants, which certainly will remain for some centuries.
So I guess you have to look for some alternatives, don't you?

I fear decades is quite accurate - unless you keep those fossil fuel powerplants open. The whole world can only run solely on nuclear fissionpower for about 50 years if the figures I've seen are correct. Other alternatives in other words are needed :(
But this is getting too offtopic; there is a thread on nuclear power elsewhere on these forums.

No, it was too easy for criminals to enter, but it is not as though no one was checked.
And how where they checked? It only took the enitre period of them ruling to even find out that criminals used it.

An outright catastrophe? Well, it also had positive effects. Less bureaucracy
and moreover no one had to stay out without a reason. Thats freedom.
And it is not as though Germany collapsed.
Nobody had to stay without a reason? Less bureaucracy? Forced prostitution, free drug trafficin, easy acces for illegal immigrants. Yep. Definatly a plus.

Guess you vote DVU? Or even Rep. or NPD?
Oh goody, goody. Here comes the Nazi-keule. If in doubt call someone a Nazi. How incredibly original.

Oh i see... terrorists! Now, if George W. Bush would know that.... :D

(note: i was thinking of Royal Air Force at first, hence i was confused ;))

Well they ceased to exist...
But I guess we got enough terrorists here, Schily is claiming that anyway.
And perhaps we are all godless and should have some more morality, so that would be reason enough to invade the whole EU.
And sorry for the confusion, guess it is not too good using to many acronyms :D

I blame the unions. Germany and France need a good dose of Thatcherism about now

Unions are just great for commerce!!! Every time they order their subjects to go on strike, they hurt the businesses that those workers work for. lol

Caveat: They were needed in the US back when factory jobs were horrible, with 60-hour work weeks, meager pay and atrocious health/safety aspects of those jobs.

Just another thought about the Turkey issue. I don't think this will be to much a problem if France is giving the EU constitiution a NO.
We'll have to think about the whole EU, and that will be before some elections in Germany in fall...
Guess 2005 is gonna be quite funny :D

Unions are just great for commerce!!! Every time they order their subjects to go on strike, they hurt the businesses that those workers work for. lol

Caveat: They were needed in the US back when factory jobs were horrible, with 60-hour work weeks, meager pay and atrocious health/safety aspects of those jobs.
And without unions thats what it would revert back to.

I blame the unions. Germany and France need a good dose of Thatcherism about now
I blame the government and the businesses. Despite record profits in the past few years they continue to scrap jobs and not raise wages to stimulate consumption. Like the Deutsche Bank AG just did.

Caveat: They were needed in the US back when factory jobs were horrible, with 60-hour work weeks, meager pay and atrocious health/safety aspects of those jobs.

Think we are steering this way again :fluffle:
After all that is the dream of every capitalist :D

So I do not see your point that unions are not necessary anymore. Perhaps they should be more internationally organized. To give those in poorer nations a chance too?

And without unions thats what it would revert back to.

Im not suggesting unions should be banned, but the should be significently weakend and given less credence. Thatcher did a good job of this and Britain did all right.

Nobody had to stay without a reason? Less bureaucracy? Forced prostitution, free drug trafficin, easy acces for illegal immigrants. Yep. Definatly a plus.

Free drug trafficing?That would be a problem of whether you are checked when you go through the customs, visae have little to do with that.
Moreover I didnt say the "Volmer-Erlass" was right, I just said there also were positive effects. And this order did not have the intention to let in criminals, but to enhance freedom.
But you just mention the negative effects again.

Oh goody, goody. Here comes the Nazi-keule. If in doubt call someone a Nazi. How incredibly original.
I f you really want to chase someone out of the country, because he does not like the national anthem, you really seem to have a tolerant attitude.
Btw: the current national anthem is taken from the same anthem whose first strophe was popular in the Third Reich so there is at least one good reason not to like it.
But nevertheless: Sorry for that offence.

I blame the government and the businesses. Despite record profits in the past few years they continue to scrap jobs and not raise wages to stimulate consumption. Like the Deutsche Bank AG just did.

Am I wrong or has Germany been exporting jobs to the US (among other countries)?

Nice BMW plant in South Carolina.

I fear decades is quite accurate - unless you keep those fossil fuel powerplants open. The whole world can only run solely on nuclear fissionpower for about 50 years if the figures I've seen are correct. Other alternatives in other words are needed :(
But this is getting too offtopic; there is a thread on nuclear power elsewhere on these forums.

Maybe that is why they want to start mining Uranium in Sweden although it has been seen as not economically only 5 years ago?

Germany's market share of "green" technology is estimated to 20%, guess this will come in handy one day. However the elections turn out I hope they wont destroy that.

Although we still enjoy a great life quality the decline in economy in europe and US (actually slower increase) is breaking the nerves of politicians and voters. Making people vote for undefined changes or extreme parties. This could lead to instability or worse. However, nothing really states that we will have dramatic cuts in our welfare systems. The production capability and value is still increasing, businesses are doing enormous winnings. That China and India are starting to become markets and producers should not harm the economic system over time (the environment left out). Although I am not sure that a traditional economic growth will enhance our life quality.

But it seems as some think that our only choice is to compete with China by becoming China. Instead we can use our resources (availabel workforce, high education and huge markets) to build a truely sustainable society with shared workload.

But we need a change in the public debate, we need to be less afraid. Let's embrace the challenge.

How long fission lasts depends on how you design the reactor, and what fuel cycle you're going to use.

You can also power a fission reactor with other fissionables besides uranium.

The newer designs of nuclear reactor (for instance, the one for the SSN Virginia and SSN Seawolf class of submarines) will run for twenty-five years without any refueling. So it's hard to imagine a 50 year limit on fissionables.

Additionally, if you use the breeder design that was done at Argonne National Labs in the early 1990s, you get a naturally fail safe reactor that breeds more fuel.

I would predict that power would last for hundreds of years, at the very least, if you used the new designs.

Am I wrong or has Germany been exporting jobs to the US (among other countries)?

Nice BMW plant in South Carolina.

You'd be amazed how much German industry is now in Slovakia...

Lets not forget that conservative & liberal mean very different things to most 1st world nations outside of the USA. We seem to be the only country where conservative means "We want to rule your life" lol

I blame the government and the businesses. Despite record profits in the past few years they continue to scrap jobs and not raise wages to stimulate consumption. Like the Deutsche Bank AG just did.

I also believe that the businesses are at least partly to blame.

Technology improvements like for exemple on-line banks gives banks enormous savings by closing offices and cutting down the workforce, which is just fine if these people could find other things to produce. However as the profit either stays within the bank-sector (more PR, useless fine-tuning), are invested in third world countries (which also is fine, but too many times done in bad ways) or in real estate it does not do any good for the public.

The governement does not dare to raise taxes in a global world and thus can't reinvest this winnings in the original society, starting a problematic helix.

Lets not forget that conservative & liberal mean very different things to most 1st world nations outside of the USA. We seem to be the only country where conservative means "We want to rule your life" lol

That's funny. I live in the US, and here liberal means that we're going to make sure you don't know it's Christmas, your kids will be taught what we want without asking you (or allowing you to observe the class), and we'll make sure your free speech rights at work will not exist if they conflict with liberal ideals. We want to tax your church out of existence and we want to take away your guns.

I see that as "we want to rule your life, for your own good".

We want to tax your church out of existence and we want to take away your guns.

I see that as "we want to rule your life, for your own good".


I see that as "we want to rule YOUR life, for MY good" at least the part with the guns and taxed churches :)

snip

I was really only trying to point out that here in the USA conservative & liberal is not the same as most other 1st world nations. Even our liberals are conservative to them. That was all.

The newer designs of nuclear reactor (for instance, the one for the SSN Virginia and SSN Seawolf class of submarines) will run for twenty-five years without any refueling. So it's hard to imagine a 50 year limit on fissionables.

But how many of those reactors would you need to fuel the entire world ? Such a reactor may run for 25 years, but a city requires a lot more power than a submarine...

This election was a catastrophe. I have to make clear that I´ve neither voted for the SPD/Greens nor for the CDU/FDP, but when the next national government will be conservative/liberal, it couldn´t be worse.
They will enforce the introduction of tuition fees and they want to abolish the BAFÖG(a mixture of grant and loan, you just have to pay back the half of what you are getting). This will ensure that only guys with rich or at least upper middle-class parents will be able to afford a scholarship. And the situation of the not-well-off people is already very bad in Germany, they are highly underrepresented in higher education.

The next thing is that Angela Merkel will do anything to get deep in Mr.Bush´s ass, although it will be difficult to get deeper than the current government. No matter where on this small planet energy ressources are to steal, err I meant no matter where democracy shall be brought, the CDU will be one of the first saying "yes!".

Just that I have mentioned that, the CDU is planning to introduce a so-called "Kopf-pauschale" for the states sickness insurance. That means that every citizen has to pay the same amount to be insured, e.g. a nurse has to pay, lets say, 150euro per month, so a doctor has to. This is quite unjust, this will improve the situation of the people who are already well off, but it will strain the ordinary people disproportinately.

But maybe the PDS(Party of Democratic Socialism) will get in the Bundestag and the majorities are not clear. This could force the CDU to forego of a bit of their cruel "social"program.

But how many of those reactors would you need to fuel the entire world ? Such a reactor may run for 25 years, but a city requires a lot more power than a submarine...

A single S6 reactor from the Virginia or Seawolf would supply enough power for most of Los Angeles.

This election was a catastrophe. I have to make clear that I´ve neither voted for the SPD/Greens nor for the CDU/FDP, but when the next national government will be conservative/liberal, it couldn´t be worse.
They will enforce the introduction of tuition fees and they want to abolish the BAFÖG(a mixture of grant and loan, you just have to pay back the half of what you are getting). This will ensure that only guys with rich or at least upper middle-class parents will be able to afford a scholarship. And the situation of the not-well-off people is already very bad in Germany, they are highly underrepresented in higher education.


Well, just happy I'll be finished by then :p
And I hope the PDS gets a fraction in the Bundestag too. I have so much pity on those two nice women without even desks :fluffle: sitting there all by thereselfs...
As I said, I think this is gonna be a funny year, at least up until to the election. Which will probably be in september, by the way. :D

US Republicans beware! Once Merkel gets into office (though I doubt they'll win the election) Germany's foreign minister will be a GAY LIBERUL!

Now this should stir up some trouble, eh?

US Republicans beware! Once Merkel gets into office (though I doubt they'll win the election) Germany's foreign minister will be a GAY LIBERUL!

Now this should stir up some trouble, eh?
I've heard today Westerwelle is not to be foreign minister but rather Gerhard is gonna take that job.
Still you would have to wonder what Westerwelle will do then? :confused:

They were needed in the US back when factory jobs were horrible, with 60-hour work weeks, meager pay and atrocious health/safety aspects of those jobs.
Texas.

That's funny..........
I see that as "we want to rule your life, for your own good".
Both US Parties want to run your life.

Both US Parties want to run your life.
Don't think this is restricted to the US, so :eek:

Don't think this is restricted to the US, so :eek:

Dunno, I never had that feeling back in Germany. There, it was burocrats ruling your life...

Dunno, I never had that feeling back in Germany. There, it was burocrats ruling your life...

OK, perhaps it is not that bad in Germany, but still there are people like Schily who want to control the most they can...
So I don't now how it actually feels like in the US :D
In fact many politicans are talking about to reduce the burocracy, perhaps that's just to get more power :rolleyes:

Both US Parties want to run your life.

True.

The only real difference is the DEMs try to make you feel guilty for what you have, and the GOPs try to make you want more.

I wonder if people really believe that the CDU, Merkel and that old little bastard Stoiber can do anything better. I mean, they're politicians, they know jack, just like the rest.

Given a choice between Schröder and Merkel, I rather go for Schröder, at least you know what gender he his and he doesn't have that much of a big mouth like the CDU/CSU fools. I still wonder what Stoiber was rambling about when he said that the government hasn't done enough to create jobs (you can hear the same crap around here). Has he ever realized that the government can't really do much in such a case? I mean, most industry is privately owned. Surely the government can say "You have to hire more people, the fact that you can't afford them doesn't matter". Of course, if we'd make it all like in the old Soviet Union and put all industry and production under government control, then yes, then the government can create jobs. Or maybe start a war or something.

I think the most fitting comment to these election was made in 1944, in the Ardennes, by some officer from the 101st Airborne...

Nuts.

Maybe that is why they want to start mining Uranium in Sweden although it has been seen as not economically only 5 years ago?

Germany's market share of "green" technology is estimated to 20%, guess this will come in handy one day. However the elections turn out I hope they wont destroy that.

20% is what they are aiming for. But untill green power is advanced enough to replace nuclear power nuclear plants should stay online. Unfortunatly the greens want to scrap them as soon as possible for purely ideoligical reasons.

Free drug trafficing?That would be a problem of whether you are checked when you go through the customs, visae have little to do with that.
Moreover I didnt say the "Volmer-Erlass" was right, I just said there also were positive effects. And this order did not have the intention to let in criminals, but to enhance freedom.
But you just mention the negative effects again.
Of course I mention them. Because they were never taken into consideration by Fischer. If you had been paying attention when it was all over the news you would have known that. It was, IMO, part of Fischers plan.
Deutschland muss von aussen eingehegt und von innen homogenisiert, will sagen verdünnt werden.

I f you really want to chase someone out of the country, because he does not like the national anthem, you really seem to have a tolerant attitude.
But nevertheless: Sorry for that offence.
You do remember what sparked that remark of Trittihn don't you?

Btw: the current national anthem is taken from the same anthem whose first strophe was popular in the Third Reich so there is at least one good reason not to like it.
Coffee and cake were also popular in the 3rd reich. Let's make them illegal.

If Angie Merchel becomes Bundeskanzlerin, I'll abandon my German citizenship! I do not want to be represented by Angela Merkel - the horror-monster from the CDU. Together with Stoiber and Westerwelle, this would be the worst possible German government ever seen. They are already crap in the opposition, if they get the Bundestag, I'll move to France or so. Germany suckling at the ass of the US - no thanks.

Personally I would vote WASG - a new leftist party for Work and Social Justice (Wahlalternative Arbeit und Soziale Gerechtigkeit). If they form an alliance with the PDS and get Oscar Lafontaine, the former leader of the SPD, they'll have a well-known head figure to do their "Wahlkampf (election battle?)" with.

Ein Deutscher']If Angie Merchel becomes Bundeskanzlerin, I'll abandon my German citizenship! I do not want to be represented by Angela Merkel - the horror-monster from the CDU. Together with Stoiber and Westerwelle, this would be the worst possible German government ever seen. They are already crap in the opposition, if they get the Bundestag, I'll move to France or so. Germany suckling at the ass of the US - no thanks.

Personally I would vote WASG - a new leftist party for Work and Social Justice (Wahlalternative Arbeit und Soziale Gerechtigkeit). If they form an alliance with the PDS and get Oscar Lafontaine, the former leader of the SPD, they'll have a well-known head figure to do their "Wahlkampf (election battle?)" with.

Better move to France now, then.

Better move to France now, then.
Not yet.

Deutschland muss von aussen eingehegt und von innen homogenisiert, will sagen verdünnt werden.

?????????????
Your point?

You do remember what sparked that remark of Trittihn don't you?

Whats wrong with discussion?

Coffee and cake were also popular in the 3rd reich. Let's make them illegal.
Coffee and cake? :headbang:
Food does not convey a message, a national anthem does. And in this case it was "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, über alles in der Welt."
And I personally do like our national anthem, but I understand if someone does not.

Ein Deutscher']If Angie Merchel becomes Bundeskanzlerin, I'll abandon my German citizenship! I do not want to be represented by Angela Merkel - the horror-monster from the CDU. Together with Stoiber and Westerwelle, this would be the worst possible German government ever seen. They are already crap in the opposition, if they get the Bundestag, I'll move to France or so. Germany suckling at the ass of the US - no thanks.

Personally I would vote WASG - a new leftist party for Work and Social Justice (Wahlalternative Arbeit und Soziale Gerechtigkeit). If they form an alliance with the PDS and get Oscar Lafontaine, the former leader of the SPD, they'll have a well-known head figure to do their "Wahlkampf (election battle?)" with.
Oh yeah. Lafontaine and the SED. What a wonderfull prospect that would be.

?????????????
Your point?
That it clearly portraits Fischers hatred for the country and the people he is supposed to represent.

Whats wrong with discussion?
What discussion? He made a verbal attack like a proper gutmensch on another politician for what he said.

Coffee and cake? :headbang:
Food does not convey a message, a national anthem does. And in this case it was "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, über alles in der Welt."
And I personally do like our national anthem, but I understand if someone does not.
Dzzz...the Deutschlandlied is alot older the the 3rd reich. And coffee and cake do not convey a message? Since when?

Oh yeah. Lafontaine and the SED. What a wonderfull prospect that would be.

Could be worse. I could become a German citizen, feign being a socialist, and run for office.

Gosh, if coffee and cakes must be banned as forms of Fascist oppresion, us Swedes have no hope... this is coffee and cake central. (Sorry, I'm in sarcastic mode today - bad day in the office!).

As for the words of the German national song, I don't find them particularly offensive as a foreigner. It's just patriotic stuff that goes into a national hymn. The way I see it is that it's just singing that the people would rather be in Germany over anywhere else. If every national song was screened for similar sensitivities, I'm sure half of the world's nations would have to recruit musicians and songwriteres quite urgently to enact the changes required!

Oh yeah. Lafontaine and the SED. What a wonderfull prospect that would be.


Could you please arrive in the present? The PDS and the SED do not have much in common anymore. Today they are a real alternative. Are you German? Then you are from western Germany right?
Anyway I understand [NS]Ein Deutscher. I don't want to be ruled by freaky Angie either...or Stoiber or Westerwelle. One is an asexual...something, the second is a bavarian leatherpants-wearing hardliner who would probably love nothing more than to see Munich become the new German capital (Berlin rules) and the third is a neoliberal capitalist jackass. And they are likely to be ruling our country for at least 4 years due to lack of alternatives...I think I abolish my atheism, become religious and pray for the real end of the world to end this torture.

Btw...I love our anthem and I think there are a great many things Germany has achieved after and before WW II that we Germans can be proud of. The period in between was a catatrophe true, but to reduce us to a few decades in a histroy of numerous centurys is ignorant and unfair. And to hear a politican of my country, a person in a high office, say that he is proud of never singing our national anthem just drives me nuts. He may say that, but then he has clearly taken the wrong job and should reconsider his career. A potential leader should be proud of the nation he serves and should be allowed to show this without being considered a Nazi.

@Tluiko: That part of the anthem you're reffering to is banned anyway. I assume you are german, so you know how touchy people around here are about this subject. There would be dozens of groups on the anthem if it would still include the first strophe ;)

BTW: I love cake. And it surely contains a message. Don't you hear it whispering at you constantly? Eat me. Eat me. Eat me.

The Nazis ruled for 12 years. Anyone who reduces our history and achievements to the Nazi time only is an ignorant asshole. Germany is much older than that - it was founded in 800 as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany#Holy_Roman_Empire) and exists today as Germany. The Germans as a people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany) existed between 800-70 B.C. and were a main factor for the fall of the Roman Empire.

Surely 'Germany' as a nation only came about in 1870(ish) when Bismarck got his way?

Ein Deutscher']The Nazis ruled for 12 years. Anyone who reduces our history and achievements to the Nazi time only is an ignorant asshole. Germany is much older than that - it was founded in 800 as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany#Holy_Roman_Empire) and exists today as Germany. The Germans as a people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany) existed between 800-70 B.C. and were a main factor for the fall of the Roman Empire.

I think you are absolutely right to say this. People are obsessed by the Nazis (perhaps because it is THE major historical event that is still within memory of some, and also that widespread photos and film are available.)

Of course, as you know, the only history of Sweden is the Viking age... ! ;)

As for the German election, it seems that as a personality (i.e. who would one choose for Chancellor), the majority would choose Schröder. But when it comes to a party, the majority would not vote for SPD. Could be an interesting election campaign - I guess it will depend how personality focused it becomes - will Schröder in effect "win" the campaign (i.e. the arguments etc) against Merkel, yet the SPD lose the election and the CDU/CSU form the next German federal government? Hmm...

I think the CDU will be next.

Surely 'Germany' as a nation only came about in 1870(ish) when Bismarck got his way?
Sure, but Germany had predecessors which were already much of what Germany still is. Saxony, Thuringia, Bavaria, most large cities, etc. were founded long ago, long before Germany as a nation was officially founded. But the Germanic tribes and the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation were the foundation for the Germany we have today. This history is also part of the history of Germany. In fact, Germany used to be much larger before the 1st and 2nd worldwar, due to much of our territory being stolen from us.

Ein Deutscher']Sure, but Germany had predecessors which were already much of what Germany still is. Saxony, Thuringia, Bavaria, most large cities, etc. were founded long ago, long before Germany as a nation was officially founded. But the Germanic tribes and the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation were the foundation for the Germany we have today. This history is also part of the history of Germany. In fact, Germany used to be much larger before the 1st and 2nd worldwar, due to much of our territory being stolen from us.

Er, you mean lost. :) (I was with you until that last half sentance.)

Er, you mean lost. :) (I was with you until that last half sentance.)
No. Stolen. Violating international law. :mad:

Too true. Sadly enough.
East Prussia with Danzig gone. The entire eastern border was moved to the west. A large part of the south east in Bavaria cut. And these are only some I'm pretty sure there were other territorys.
But it doesn't matter because a usual the victor makes history.

Ein Deutscher']No. Stolen. Violating international law. :mad:

Yeah... and now Germany has parts of it back, and are they happy about it? Doesn't look like it...

We got something back???

We got something back???

Saxonia, Thuringia, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Sachsen-Anhalt, Brandenburg

Ein Deutscher']No. Stolen. Violating international law. :mad:

No worse than four partitions of Poland (ALL of which Germany took part in).

I think Germany needs to not exist for 123 years to really know what having your land stolen is like. :p

http://www.incentraleurope.com/pictures/c/ice/polish_flag.jpg

Saxonia, Thuringia, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Sachsen-Anhalt, Brandenburg
Those weren't really stolen. Germany was divided flatout - also violating internaitonal law. The territories I mean are Prussia, Silesia and others in the East, much of which is now occupied by Russia, Poland or the Czech Republic.

Ein Deutscher']Those weren't really stolen. Germany was divided flatout - also violating internaitonal law. The territories I mean are Prussia, Silesia and others in the East, much of which is now occupied by Russia, Poland or the Czech Republic.

Poland and the Chzech Republic are part of the EU now... why bother with what part of the land used to belong to whom for how many years? And I don't really know about any formerly German provinces that would belong to Russia now?

No worse than four partitions of Poland (ALL of which Germany took part in).

I think Germany needs to not exist for 123 years to really know what having your land stolen is like. :p

http://www.incentraleurope.com/pictures/c/ice/polish_flag.jpg
Pff, Poland can have it's territory that it originally owned. But it now has a lot of what has for centuries been German territory. Poland can have a big mouth today because of the land it got after WW2.

Ein Deutscher']Pff, Poland can have it's territory that it originally owned. But it now has a lot of what has for centuries been German territory. Poland can have a big mouth today because of the land it got after WW2.

Look back one more century and you'll find that Poland didn't even exist for wuite some time because all it's land was occupied by Prussia, Austria and Russia. If you want to sort out the European map, how do you choose the century you want to use as a blueprint?

Poland and the Chzech Republic are part of the EU now... why bother with what part of the land used to belong to whom for how many years? And I don't really know about any formerly German provinces that would belong to Russia now?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad_Oblast

Ein Deutscher']Pff, Poland can have it's territory that it originally owned. But it now has a lot of what has for centuries been German territory. Poland can have a big mouth today because of the land it got after WW2.

Great! We'll take the 1550 map, then:
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~schreyer/map-europe-1550.jpg

We appreciate your being reasonable. :D

Look back one more century and you'll find that Poland didn't even exist for wuite some time because all it's land was occupied by Prussia, Austria and Russia. If you want to sort out the European map, how do you choose the century you want to use as a blueprint?
Before WW2 or whenever the law was made that such territorial theft is illegal.

Great! We'll take the 1550 map, then:
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~schreyer/map-europe-1550.jpg

We appreciate your being reasonable. :D
*shrug* Germany was bigger then than it is now. But back then, no international law existed forbidding territorial theft.

Ein Deutscher']Before WW2 or whenever the law was made that such territorial theft is illegal.

Who made this law? Maybe that's a way to find out...

Who made this law? Maybe that's a way to find out...
If I remember correctly, it's in the UN charter.

This thread turned quite nasty, didn't it :eek: ?
What is it good for turning all around claiming all your neighbours being so bad to you. All the unjustice done by whoever won't ever weigh up to anything! The whole history of europe is a pure mess, and quite long that for...
There is simply no point in this whole discussion here.
And for the anthem text you are referring. It stems from the time, when Germany as a nation was about to emerge from a lot of small souvereign states. And there was heavy resistance to that. So the text was ment to unite the german people and to remind the of a culture they all got in common. At least that is what I was told.
Perhaps we can turn to the presence now again?
No one I know wants Angela Merkel & Co. But nobody wants the current team either. So everyone wants a change. And that's why I think we will get the first Bundeskanzlerin in September...
Just for NOT being Schröder you know. It's really sad.
But perhaps SPD and CDU will have to go together after the election who knows?
I wonder who will rule Bayern after Stoiber is in Berlin, anybody has a glue?
Interesting times :D we live in.

Ein Deutscher']If I remember correctly, it's in the UN charter.

And if I remember correctly, the UN was founded after WWII... so your not entitled to any land east of the Oder, I'm afraid...

Perhaps we can turn to the presence now again?
No one I know wants Angela Merkel & Co. But nobody wants the current team either. So everyone wants a change. And that's why I think we will get the first Bundeskanzlerin in September...
Just for NOT being Schröder you know. It's really sad.
But perhaps SPD and CDU will have to go together after the election who knows?
I wonder who will rule Bayern after Stoiber is in Berlin, anybody has a glue?
Interesting times :D we live in.

Funny... I can't remember the last time a German chancellor was elected for his own sake. They all seem to get elected just to get rid of the previous guy...
No wonder it's getting worse and worse

Edit :

No way, man! Stoiber will move the capital to Munich. That's the only place he can walk around in his silly Lederhosen-outfit without attracting attention :D

Funny... I can't remember the last time a German chancellor was elected for his own sake. They all seem to get elected just to get rid of the previous guy...
No wonder it's getting worse and worse

Edit :

No way, man! Stoiber will move the capital to Munich. That's the only place he can walk around in his silly Lederhosen-outfit without attracting attention :D

Hey, you got that very straight, now I see clearer :D
Thanks a lot!
And I think you can walk around in Berlin in any fashion you like they got the Love Parade at least...
But I guess he will rule from München, you're right about that. Perhaps Angela will be his puppet on the strings after all?
Don't think the rest of germany will like that :p
But it would solve a lot of those issues at hand, wouldn't it?

Hey, you got that very straight, now I see clearer :D
Thanks a lot!
And I think you can walk around in Berlin in any fashion you like they got the Love Parade at least...
But I guess he will rule from München, you're right about that. Perhaps Angela will be his puppet on the strings after all?
Don't think the rest of germany will like that :p
But it would solve a lot of those issues at hand, wouldn't it?

Love Parade??? You don't think that Mr. Ed the talking hors...erm, Ed the Christian will allow that? Undermines family values and all that. I'm sure the new Pope hates it as well, and they do speak the same language, don't they?

Er, you mean lost. :) (I was with you until that last half sentance.)
You wouldn't be saying that if YOUR family had been ethnicly cleansed by the Soviets, TWICE. Lost? Lost like my composure when someone says such foolishness as you have. Or lost like your foot in your mouth?

And if I remember correctly, the UN was founded after WWII... so your not entitled to any land east of the Oder, I'm afraid...
Actually, I did some research and it was not quite related to the UN, although today, this would be a crime against humanity, back then it looks like it wasn't.

The nation Germany (Third Reich) did not cease to exist and in the capitulation treaty, it was written, that Germany stays in it's borders from 1937, but is being divided into 4 occupation zones for administrative purposes. Similar to Iraq today. Germany as a country did not surrender - the German military did. Our Supreme Court said 1975, that the allies did not annect the territories east of the Oder/Neiße line and thus, Germany as a sovereign country and in regards to international law remains in the borders of 1937. The treaties of Moscow and Warsaw did not release the eastern territories from territorial and judical integrity with the homeland. Furthermore it is questionable whether the Federal Republic of Germany is the judical successor of the Third Reich and thus could decide over the territory of the Third Reich, since the Third Reich did not capitulate and was not destroyed. Due to this, the 2+4 treaty from 1990, which made the acceptance of the eastern border a requirement for German reunification, might not be valid in the end, since it abandons the eastern territories, without Helmut Kohl as chancellor of the FRG at the time, being empowered to do so. There is no peace treaty, neither is the border as it is today valid. You'll see, this topic is not yet over.

Here's a quote from the judgement of the German Consitutional Court from 1975 (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/laws/global_law/german-cases/cases_bverg.shtml?07jul1975):

The territories east of the Oder and Neisse, like the remaining territory of the Reich within the frontiers of 31 December 1937, were not annexed by the victor powers at the end of the war. The Preamble to the "Declaration" of 5 June 1945 given by the governments of the United Kingdom, the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the provisional government of the French Republic "Regarding the Defeat of Germany and the Assumption of Supreme Authority with Respect to Germany" states: "The assumption...of the said authorities and powers does not effect the annexation of Germany" (Official Gazette of the Control Council for Germany, supplementary sheet no.1 p.7). At the Potsdam Conference (July/August 1945), Britain, the Soviet Union and the United States of America agreed to bring the German territories east of the Oder and Neisse under special arrangements, clearly departing from the occupation rule set up in the remaining territory of the Reich. According to Sections VI and IX of the Protocol of 2 August 1945 (often called the Potsdam Agreement) entitled "Communiqué on the three-power Conference in Berlin", the German eastern territories were (subject to final definition of the territorial questions in the peace settlement) placed partly under Soviet and partly under Polish "administration" (Official Gazette of the Control Council for Germany, supplementary sheet no.1 p.17f.). The temporary nature of this territorial allocation arising from the reservation about the peace settlement was initially respected by the Soviet Union and Poland following the conclusion of the Potsdam Conference. The Soviet-Polish Treaty of 16 August 1945, which describes the course of the Soviet-Polish boundary in East Prussia, explicitly repeats in Article 3 the reservation as to the peace treaty, referring to the Potsdam Conference (United Nations Treaty Series 10 II no.61 p.196).

The three western powers did not agree to definitive allocation of the German eastern territories to the Soviet Union and Poland. According to Point VI of the Protocol of the Proceedings of the Potsdam Conference, Britain and the United States merely stated that they would "support" the "proposal by the Soviet government concerning the ultimate transfer to the Soviet Union of the city of Königsberg and the area adjacent to it" "in principle", subject to determination of the "actual frontier" still to be made at the "forthcoming peace settlement".

2. However, shortly after the end of the war the Soviet Union and Poland took measures aimed at the full incorporation of the German territories east of the Oder and Neisse into their area of sovereignty.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Historical-Eastern-Germany <- this is also a good article on this topic.

2. However, shortly after the end of the war the Soviet Union and Poland took measures aimed at the full incorporation of the German territories east of the Oder and Neisse into their area of sovereignty

Actually, I think some clarification of this is needed. My father, while no authority on this crime, is a POMMERANIAN. His entire family was basicly ethnicly cleansed from Stettin. He's always maintained that Poland was given Pommerania and the other provinces by the USSR as compenstation for a large part of Poland the Soviets annexed. Thus, Poland was as abused almost as much as Germany in this fiasco. I should add that my father holds nothing whatsoever against Poland or its people for what happened. The USSR on the other hand, he lays direct blame upon. He also feels it is far to late for any repatriation to have any meaning. Those lands have been scrubbed clean of their German culture, long ago.

If a Pole tries to correct his pronunciation of Stettin, however, he gets upset. He was born in Stettin, not Scezin or whatever those people call it. It would be nice to get some acknowledgment of what was done, instead of the usual ignorant comments which justify it with "You lost, so shut up."

Love Parade??? You don't think that Mr. Ed the talking hors...erm, Ed the Christian will allow that? Undermines family values and all that. I'm sure the new Pope hates it as well, and they do speak the same language, don't they?

Think they do, after all they both are bavarians as far as I know :D
OK, we'll see if we got thos parades still around next year. By the way the mayor of Berlin is gay and proud of it, so we got Christopher Streets Day too.
Westerwelle is gay too, but I think not so proud of it like the mayor of Berlin :eek:
And he will be in government with Edmund Stoiber. So it seems not too much a problem :fluffle:
Guess they already arranged with the fact that there are lot of those gay guys around :p (steady infiltration)
But those parades always get some opposition 'cause of the trash they produce. After all someone has to clean it all up and pay for it...

To true, considering Merkel even went to the USA to apologize and make clear not every german was thinking like the government :eek:
Quite weird, never heard of any politican doing something like this before. And there was this letter of some ministers, too...

I think this is one of the points, which make this woman just unelectable for most people I know... :D
So Germany is much like the US then, where a politician who acts on their own personal convictions, regardless of public opinion, is castigated.

I suppose everyone would rather have a sellout than a person of conviction in office. Sellouts are so much more deserving of respect...

(suggesting that had this person sold out they'd be electable, not that her detractors are sellouts)

You wouldn't be saying that if YOUR family had been ethnicly cleansed by the Soviets, TWICE. Lost? Lost like my composure when someone says such foolishness as you have. Or lost like your foot in your mouth?

Given four Polish partitions and losing a grand uncle at Katyn, I really don't think I'm in any worse a position to discuss this issue.

So Germany is much like the US then, where a politician who acts on their own personal convictions, regardless of public opinion, is castigated.

I suppose everyone would rather have a sellout than a person of conviction in office. Sellouts are so much more deserving of respect...

(suggesting that had this person sold out they'd be electable, not that her detractors are sellouts)

Works the other way round as well...
One German politician, Herta Daeubler-Gmelin, had to give up her position because she compared the "Patriot Act" to the "Gleichschaltung" in the Third Reich. Aside from the fact that both policies are almost identical, I think Germany tried to remain as neutral as possible.

Ein Deutscher']

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Historical-Eastern-Germany[/url] <- this is also a good article on this topic.

Just for argument's sake... If Germany suddenly found itself with those regions at its hands again, what would it do with them?
For all I know, none of them have any major economy, some areas are an ecological problem to say the least (there' a fair number of nuclear reactors the would have to be closed down and dismantled safely), people there don't speak German so money would have to be invested in additional education, they don't have the same health insurance standards as Germany does, so this would have to be integrated as well, unenployment is very high in some of those areas as well...
Tell me, doesn't Germany have enough financial problems as it is, without taking on more destitute strips of land?

Yes. That's not the issue however. The issue is that the land was stolen, illegally and that this is not being acknowledged. I'd not absolutely want the land back, since the Poles made it a junkyard and there's not much of the German past left. But I want them to acknowledge that the land was taken illegally, that they had no right to it. Furthermore an apology for the millions killed during the ethnic cleansing. We did the same for those who died in the Holocaust and paid billions of reparations (and still do). If these people don't want to use doublestandards, they should acknowledge their own bad deeds.

Ein Deutscher']Yes. That's not the issue however. The issue is that the land was stolen, illegally and that this is not being acknowledged. I'd not absolutely want the land back, since the Poles made it a junkyard and there's not much of the German past left. But I want them to acknowledge that the land was taken illegally, that they had no right to it. Furthermore an apology for the millions killed during the ethnic cleansing. We did the same for those who died in the Holocaust and paid billions of reparations (and still do). If these people don't want to use doublestandards, they should acknowledge their own bad deeds.

The land was lost by Germany while it waged an offensive war for more land. :rolleyes:

The land was lost by Germany while it waged an offensive war for more land. :rolleyes:
Nope. The land was illegally annexed by Poland and the USSR.

Ein Deutscher']Nope. The land was illegally annexed by Poland and the USSR.

Uh huh... and that whole fighting part that came before it... that was unrelated right?

Uh huh... and that whole fighting part that came before it... that was unrelated right?
Nope, but it didn't empower Poland or the USSR to illegally annex land from Germany.

Ein Deutscher']Nope, but it didn't empower Poland or the USSR to illegally annex land from Germany.

Come on, where's your problem?

1.) Germany started the war, hence it had to pay the consequences (which were, after all, comparably mild to what could have happened. Depending on how things happened, Stalin might have wanted to exterminate you altogether :D ).

2.) It was sixty years ago. 60 Years! Even the people who were children back then are old today. So, except for them, nobody in Germany living today has any connection to these lands. What do you want anyways, take it away from Poland and Russia again and wage yet another war? :eek:

Hmm sounds like a way to solve it :D Though I think our politicians are too chicken to do anything about it. And no, the war did not give Poland or the USSR the right to do what they did.

Ein Deutscher']Nope, but it didn't empower Poland or the USSR to illegally annex land from Germany.

At the Yalta Conference in February 1945, Stalin was able to present his western allies, Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill, with a fait accompli in Poland. His armed forces were in occupation of the country, and his agents, the Polish Communists, were in control of its administration. The USSR was in the process of incorporating the lands in eastern Poland which it had occupied between 1939 and 1941. In compensation, the USSR awarded Poland all the German territories in Pomerania, Silesia and Brandenburg east of the Oder-Neisse Line, plus the southern half of East Prussia.

...so, Stalin gave parts of Germany to Poland, with approval of the victorious Allies over Germany. Which, had WW2 not been launched, would never have happened. Ergo, Germany lost the lands as a direct consequence for fighting an offensive war for more territory.

I think the only real evilness about that was what they did to Poland with that. I mean, they suffered more than anybody else in the war, and were punished after the war with having their territory relocated, plus becoming communists. :mad:

Could you please arrive in the present? The PDS and the SED do not have much in common anymore.
Yeah sure. Neither does the NPD have much in common with the NSDAP.
Today they are a real alternative.
Errrrmmmmmmm.......
Are you German? Then you are from western Germany right?
Hamburg, Allthough I nowadays live in the Netherlands.

That it clearly portraits Fischers hatred for the country and the people he is supposed to represent.

Fischer hates Germany and the Germans in your opinion?
Well, and as far as your quote is concerned: I do not know were and in which context he said this, but standing alone it does not really make sense to me.


What discussion? He made a verbal attack like a proper gutmensch on another politician for what he said.

If someone uses a phrase commonly used by Nazis as a distinktive mark, thats quite what he earns. (If you are refering to the "Ich bin stolz ein Deutscher zu sein." ("Im proud to be German"), which itself is ok, though it does not really make sense.)

Fischer hates Germany and the Germans in your opinion?
Well, and as far as your quote is concerned: I do not know were and in which context he said this, but standing alone it does not really make sense to me.
The quote is one by Fischer. And since the greens are the biggests supporters of mass immigration it most certainly makes sense.


If someone uses a phrase commonly used by Nazis as a distinktive mark, thats quite what he earns. (If you are refering to the "Ich bin stolz ein Deutscher zu sein." ("Im proud to be German"), which itself is ok, though it does not really make sense.)
And what phrase would that be? And yes. Thats what I was reffering too. And what was Trittihn's response?
Laurenz Meyer hat nicht nur das aussehen sondern auch die mentalität eines rechts radikalen skin heads.
And then he proudly proclaims he never hbave and never will sing the national anthem.
He should have been tared, feathered and deported. Or at least fired. It's an outrage that such a person is allowed to hold such a high office.

The quote is one by Fischer. And since the greens are the biggests supporters of mass immigration it most certainly makes sense.

And thats why you think Fischer hates Germans/Germany?


And what phrase would that be? And yes. Thats what I was reffering too. And what was Trittihn's response?
Laurenz Meyer hat nicht nur das aussehen sondern auch die mentalität eines rechts radikalen skin heads.
And then he proudly proclaims he never hbave and never will sing the national anthem.
He should have been tared, feathered and deported. Or at least fired. It's an outrage that such a person is allowed to hold such a high office.

Of course Trittin's remark is not factual (at least the part about the appearance), but is the CDU and the FDP? Or is your writing Trittihn instead of Trittin? (For the not-english-spreking among you: Trittin is the Minister's actual name and Trittihn is would be "Kick him" in German.)

And thats why you think Fischer hates Germans/Germany?
It's pretty obviouse.



Of course Trittin's remark is not factual (at least the part about the appearance), but is the CDU and the FDP? Or is your writing Trittihn instead of Trittin? (For the not-english-spreking among you: Trittin is the Minister's actual name and Trittihn is would be "Kick him" in German.)
Not factual? I think it's save to assume he meant every word of it.

Not factual? I think it's save to assume he meant every word of it.

Politics nowadays is using catchy and/or stupid slogans, because you need the attention on TV. Everything is expressed in the harshest way possible. Or what is calling Trittin "Trittihn"?

Come on, where's your problem?

1.) Germany started the war, hence it had to pay the consequences (which were, after all, comparably mild to what could have happened. Depending on how things happened, Stalin might have wanted to exterminate you altogether :D ).

2.) It was sixty years ago. 60 Years! Even the people who were children back then are old today. So, except for them, nobody in Germany living today has any connection to these lands. What do you want anyways, take it away from Poland and Russia again and wage yet another war? :eek:


The fact is Stalin ignored all treaties when he annexxed these lands. It was never part of the peace deal and in the case of Pommerania, the lands were never taken by aggression...it bought fair an square from the Polish King something like 800 years ago.

But I ahree wholeheartedly with your second point. My father was child back when he and his family were booted from their home. Guess what? He agrees with you. Back in th 90s, sevral family members were approached by the Polish government and asked to return, to manage lands the family one owned. A couple of them went, if only to satisy their curiosity. Once verdant farmlands, for hundreds of years reffered to as the Breadbasket of Europe, had been mismanaged into wastelands. There was nothing left to work with. They didn't mind being guests and employees of the Polish governement...reclaiming ownership of land owned not by them but their parents, was a little moot after 50 years. But the entire situation there was to absurd for words. You can't really blame the Polish people themselves for that state of affairs. Afterall, who wants to break their back working land they don't own for mere pennies per week and only to have to line up in bread lines anyway. If it had been a democracy and the people had been given ownership of the land, things would no doubt be different, and no need to ask people who had never even lived there to manage the farms would have existed. The place is a mess. Poland can keep it. It just hurts to see someone justify the suffering of thousands of people. Thats what causes things like Nazi Germany in the first place.